good book...

[Raider179]

Originally posted by lasersailor184
Raider, do you realize how contradictory you are?  

Please, reread your own post there.  If you can't pick it out, I suggest you pick another college to go to.  The one you are at right now is teaching you nothing.

Wow that is an insightful post you just made.

[Toad]

Originally posted by Raider179
The rest were extreme cultists who were stockpiling weapons for "Armageddon". Who knows what they would have done if the US government hadn't gotten to them.

Well, certainly. After all, even though the residents of the compound had broken no laws and were NOT wanted by the Feds (they wanted only Koresh), it's absolutely CLEAR that those in the compound were guilty until proven innocent. They had to kill them so they could then give them a fair trial.

Raider's Amreeka.

I'm actually glad I'm old.

[Jackal1]

Originally posted by Raider179


Regarding New Orleans, Have you ever heard of marital law? You do understand that under it, rights can be suspended. That is American law and there is nothing illegal about it.
 

What Is Martial Law?
And is New Orleans under it?
By Keelin McDonell
Posted Friday, Sept. 2, 2005, at 2:04 PM PT

Military presence? Yes. Martial law? No.

Military presence? Yes. Martial law? No.
On Tuesday reports began circulating that New Orleans officials had put the flood-ravaged city under martial law. The attorney general's office of Louisiana quickly issued a denial. Confusion persisted, however, after White House press secretary Scott McClellan told a group of journalists on Wednesday that "martial law has been declared in Mississippi and Louisiana." Yesterday National Guard Lt. Gen H. Steven Blum sought to set the record straight, saying, "This is not, as it has been erroneously reported, martial law." What is martial law? And who can declare it?

Martial law occurs when the military assumes police powers because local authorities and courts aren't functioning. Although the president usually imposes martial law, federal regulation allows for a "local commander" to do so "on the spot, if the circumstances demand immediate action." Federal armed forces are expected to relinquish these powers as soon as the local government is once again operable. During martial law, the military may arrest and try civilians, seize private property, and institute curfews, among other emergency powers.

In practice, however, martial law has been all but barred since the late 19th century. During the Civil War, President Lincoln suspended habeas corpus and set up military courts in several states in the South and Midwest. Many at the time felt that Lincoln had superseded his authority, and in 1878 Congress passed the Posse Comitatus Act, which forbids the military from performing civilian law enforcement without congressional approval.

[lasersailor184]

Ok only person who won against the government with a gun was Randy Weaver and His wife had to die. Not quite a victory in my mind. Now go look at lawsuits and see how many times people have gotten policies changed or overturned.

I can name many.  The Founding Fathers of the United States.

I can name more.  The Soldiers of the war of 1812.  Want more?  I can keep going.

Wow that is an insightful post you just made.

Did you even bother reading your post?  Because if Lazs comes back, he's gonna rip you a new ******* you're so contradictory.  I still advise you to read over what you wrote.

[Jackal1]

Originally posted by Raider179

2)As for Waco, I have no care in the world for those people except for the children who were forced into that position by their parents.  

  There was no parent at Waco who put their children into a position of coming under an absurd attack. It was unexpected, unprecedented and totaly beyond the bounds of any government or law enforcement. They were interested in one man only. One which they could have easily gotten without the attack.

. The rest were extreme cultists who were stockpiling weapons for "Armageddon". Who knows what they would have done if the US government hadn't gotten to them

  There were no illegal weapons found at Waco.
The term 'stockpiling" is usualy used to blow things out of proportion and by the media for shock effect. There were a lot of people at that compound.
  Yea, who knows "what they would have done" if the U.S. government "hadn`t gotten to them". You don`t. I don`t and neither did they.

Also, if you have the full might of the US government outside your door, telling you to come outside, You better come out, otherwise tragedy might befall you.

  The moment you become the attacker and are violating people`s rights as citizens you no longer reperesent the U.S. government. You have become the enemy of the U.S. and it`s population. You can`t hide behind a shield, a ninja suit or the people of the U.S. because you have just violated the very essence of the law put in place 'by the people". At that point YOU become the anarchist.

[Raider179]

Originally posted by Toad
Well, certainly. After all, even though the residents of the compound had broken no laws and were NOT wanted by the Feds (they wanted only Koresh), it's absolutely CLEAR that those in the compound were guilty until proven innocent. They had to kill them so they could then give them a fair trial.

Raider's Amreeka.

I'm actually glad I'm old.

So the Ninja's killed them huh? They broke no laws? How about firing on police? How about Resisting Arrest? How about child endangerment? How about all the sex stuff Koresh supposedly was having with minors? Or do you just overlook all that?

 Koresh's residence was the Branch Davidian Compound, The police had every right and reason to raid that place. That's like saying your at a drug dealers house and the police show up and you shoot at them and then saying you didn't break any laws. Yes you did. Not too mention the 2 MONTHS that passed by when they could have just walked out and got their "fair trial"

here is part of the warrant

United States District Court Western District of Texas
SEARCH WARRANT W93-15M

In the Matter of the Search of residence of Vernon Wayne Howell, and others, Rt . 7, Box 471-B, AKA: Mount Carmel Center, McLennan County, TX, its appurtenances, vehicles, underground structures located on entire premises of the 77 acre compound. See attached photos & property description Attachments A, B and C.

On June 9,1992, I was contacted by Lieutentant Barber who told me that he had learned from Larry Gilbreath that in June of 1992, the United Parcel Service delivered ninety (90) pounds of powdered aluminum metal and 30 to 40 cardboard tubes, 24 inches in length and 1 1/4 to 1 1/2 inches in diameter, which were shipped from the Fox Fire Company, Pocatella, idaho, to "Mag-Bag."

Aluminum metal is a component used in making explosives in case you didnt know.

They raided the compound to secure the explosives and arrest Koresh. You arrest him offsite and leave the explosives at the compound, I think not.

[Raider179]

Originally posted by Jackal1
What Is Martial Law?
And is New Orleans under it?
By Keelin McDonell
Posted Friday, Sept. 2, 2005, at 2:04 PM PT

Military presence? Yes. Martial law? No.

Military presence? Yes. Martial law? No.
On Tuesday reports began circulating that New Orleans officials had put the flood-ravaged city under martial law. The attorney general's office of Louisiana quickly issued a denial. Confusion persisted, however, after White House press secretary Scott McClellan told a group of journalists on Wednesday that "martial law has been declared in Mississippi and Louisiana." Yesterday National Guard Lt. Gen H. Steven Blum sought to set the record straight, saying, "This is not, as it has been erroneously reported, martial law." What is martial law? And who can declare it?

Martial law occurs when the military assumes police powers because local authorities and courts aren't functioning. Although the president usually imposes martial law, federal regulation allows for a "local commander" to do so "on the spot, if the circumstances demand immediate action." Federal armed forces are expected to relinquish these powers as soon as the local government is once again operable. During martial law, the military may arrest and try civilians, seize private property, and institute curfews, among other emergency powers.

In practice, however, martial law has been all but barred since the late 19th century. During the Civil War, President Lincoln suspended habeas corpus and set up military courts in several states in the South and Midwest. Many at the time felt that Lincoln had superseded his authority, and in 1878 Congress passed the Posse Comitatus Act, which forbids the military from performing civilian law enforcement without congressional approval.

martial law... YES

http://www.wwltv.com/local/stories/WWL083105lawless.1242410b.html

Disgusted and furious with the lawlessness of looters who have put fear into citizens, New Orleans Mayor Ray Nagin declared Martial Law in the city and directed the city's 1,500 person police force to do "whatever it takes" to regain control of the city.

nice try next time try to use an actual source and not an editorial by some Conservative nutjob.

[Raider179]

Originally posted by lasersailor184
I can name many.  The Founding Fathers of the United States.

I can name more.  The Soldiers of the war of 1812.  Want more?  I can keep going.



Did you even bother reading your post?  Because if Lazs comes back, he's gonna rip you a new ******* you're so contradictory.  I still advise you to read over what you wrote.

Thought we were talking American civilians vs the government not Armed Regular troops vs Foriegn Governments.

And you are telling me to read over what I wrote.

Here let me help ya, Go look up shay's rebellion.

Oh no lasz is gonna rip a new one. wah. Why because I understand that Feds want to go home to their families and that just by being there they risk their life? Is that a hard concept for you to grasp?

[lasersailor184]

Shay's rebellion was just a bunch of jerks who didn't want to pay taxes.  It wasn't a rebellion against the unconstitutionality of what the government was doing.

I suggest you study history before you reply here again.  It will make you look a lot smarter.

[Raider179]

Originally posted by Jackal1
There was no parent at Waco who put their children into a position of coming under an absurd attack. It was unexpected, unprecedented and totaly beyond the bounds of any government or law enforcement. They were interested in one man only. One which they could have easily gotten without the attack.


 

  There were no illegal weapons found at Waco.
The term 'stockpiling" is usualy used to blow things out of proportion and by the media for shock effect. There were a lot of people at that compound.
  Yea, who knows "what they would have done" if the U.S. government "hadn`t gotten to them". You don`t. I don`t and neither did they.

 

  The moment you become the attacker and are violating people`s rights as citizens you no longer reperesent the U.S. government. You have become the enemy of the U.S. and it`s population. You can`t hide behind a shield, a ninja suit or the people of the U.S. because you have just violated the very essence of the law put in place 'by the people". At that point YOU become the anarchist.

Really? As a parent, the moment things calmed down at waco I would have got my child out. To do is less is irresponsible and falls on the parent as fault.

Unexpected? Hardly, Koresh was preparing them for exactly an armed assault by the Government in which he would become/arise as the Savior/Messiah.

A police raid is not an attack. If BD's wouldnt have fired upon police then they would have been taken into custody.

No illegal weapons? lol

http://www.pbs.org/wgbh/pages/frontline/waco/treasury.html

Machine Guns

The FBI determined that 46 semiautomatic firearms had been modified to fire in full automatic mode:

22 M-16 Type Rifles

20 AK-47 Type Rifles

2 Heckler and Koch SP-89

2 M-11/Nine

The FBI also determined that two AR-15 lower receivers had been modified to fire in full automatic mode.

Silencers

21 Sound suppressors or silencers

Hand Grenades

4 Live M-21 Practice Hand Grenades

The possession of lawfully manufactured machineguns, silencers, or grenades requires the owner to register the weapon with the Bureau of Alcohol, Tobacco & Firearms. None of the compound's residents were registered to own such a weapon, therefore it would have been illegal for them to possess these weapons.

So if a suspect holes up in a house and won't come out, the police aren't allowed to "attack" and get the suspect? That is stupid beyond belief. I am no anarchist I believe in a strong federal governement as much as I believe that citizens have a duty to obey the law. Especially when the Law says hey come outside we gotta talk about these guns/explosives/sexual allegations....


Owning guns doesnt make you a victim. Disobeying the law doesnt make you a victim. Shooting Police doesn't make you a victim. Molesting Children doesn't make you a victim. Yeah Koresh was a real winner. Defend him all you like I am glad he is dead.

[Raider179]

Originally posted by lasersailor184
Shay's rebellion was just a bunch of jerks who didn't want to pay taxes.  It wasn't a rebellion against the unconstitutionality of what the government was doing.

I suggest you study history before you reply here again.  It will make you look a lot smarter.

It was a rebellion by ordinary citizens, Farmers against the government. But if you dont see how it applies to the discussion it wouldnt surprise me.

[Jackal1]

Originally posted by Raider179
martial law... YES

http://www.wwltv.com/local/stories/WWL083105lawless.1242410b.html

Disgusted and furious with the lawlessness of looters who have put fear into citizens, New Orleans Mayor Ray Nagin declared Martial Law in the city and directed the city's 1,500 person police force to do "whatever it takes" to regain control of the city.

nice try next time try to use an actual source and not an editorial by some Conservative nutjob.

That is just the point i am making here. If you actualy had any idea of what you were talking about you would know that the mayor does not have the authority to declare martial law and that his declartion has been disclaimed and made nil alll the way to the white house. Try to keep up here, will ya?

[Jackal1]

Originally posted by Raider179
Really? As a parent, the moment things calmed down at waco I would have got my child out. To do is less is irresponsible and falls on the parent as fault.

Unexpected? Hardly, Koresh was preparing them for exactly an armed assault by the Government in which he would become/arise as the Savior/Messiah.

A police raid is not an attack. If BD's wouldnt have fired upon police then they would have been taken into custody.

No illegal weapons? lol

http://www.pbs.org/wgbh/pages/frontline/waco/treasury.html

Machine Guns

The FBI determined that 46 semiautomatic firearms had been modified to fire in full automatic mode:

22 M-16 Type Rifles

20 AK-47 Type Rifles

2 Heckler and Koch SP-89

2 M-11/Nine

The FBI also determined that two AR-15 lower receivers had been modified to fire in full automatic mode.

Silencers

21 Sound suppressors or silencers

Hand Grenades

4 Live M-21 Practice Hand Grenades

The possession of lawfully manufactured machineguns, silencers, or grenades requires the owner to register the weapon with the Bureau of Alcohol, Tobacco & Firearms. None of the compound's residents were registered to own such a weapon, therefore it would have been illegal for them to possess these weapons.

So if a suspect holes up in a house and won't come out, the police aren't allowed to "attack" and get the suspect? That is stupid beyond belief. I am no anarchist I believe in a strong federal governement as much as I believe that citizens have a duty to obey the law. Especially when the Law says hey come outside we gotta talk about these guns/explosives/sexual allegations....


Owning guns doesnt make you a victim. Disobeying the law doesnt make you a victim. Shooting Police doesn't make you a victim. Molesting Children doesn't make you a victim. Yeah Koresh was a real winner. Defend him all you like I am glad he is dead.

 No one here is defending Koresh. With your off the wall quotes you used as examples you could possibly do a little research on the weapons in question.
  It has became quite clear that you clearly have not got a clue as to the events or the rights of innocent people violated in this instance or any of the others discussed here.
 If one wishs to forget the fact that our rights weren`t given, they were earned and have been defended on many occasions through our history as a country and completely turn over all their rights into an absolute power I consider them dead weight. Freedom
 and rights didn`t come cheap
and will not be free now or in the future.
 Absolute power is what this country has strived and fought to avoid. Absolute power did not work out to well for the nazis and communists and it will never be tolerated here.
  Standing behind a badge does not make you right or your actions acceptable if you overstep your bounds and restraints and go against the very laws you are supposed to be protecting.
  Suspicion has to be backed up with facts, then proven.

[lasersailor184]

Nope, Raider is already gone.  Lost cause and all.

[Raider179]

Originally posted by Jackal1
That is just the point i am making here. If you actualy had any idea of what you were talking about you would know that the mayor does not have the authority to declare martial law and that his declartion has been disclaimed and made nil alll the way to the white house. Try to keep up here, will ya?

Louisiana has no law regarding establishing martial law. It does however have emergency powers which can be used to suspend civil liberties. Martial law might not be technically correct I will concede but it is basically the same thing regarding the suspension of civil liberties.