Abortion and the Death Penalty

[DREDIOCK]

Originally posted by Gunslinger
and some say my hypothetical posts are to the extreme  

No, he said the law neds to be more consistant 100% one way or the other.
Just trying to find out if he would find either way acceptable or it it were just the way he wants it

[Holden McGroin]

Originally posted by DREDIOCK
At which point does a fetus stop being a fetus and start being a baby?

When your born.

So no qualms about aborting with just hours to go before natural childbirth were to occur?  I have qualms about that.  I have no qualms about a woman taking a pregnancy test, finding out she's a few weeks pregnant, and deciding to end it then and there, but qualms about it with only a week to go.

Prosecutors have sent murderers to prison with two counts of murder when they killed a pregnant woman.  Apparently your position is not on firm legal foundation either.

[Sixpence]

Originally posted by Eagler
this argument is so lame ... don't forget incest.
ask yourself;
how many rapes/incest result in pregnacy?
of those, what number chooses to abort rather than say give up for adoption?
what percent of total abortions done, are done to kill a rape/incest baby?
is that percentage even a whole number?

What is your point, that she should have to carry the baby?

btw, if I read corectly, there were 94,000 rapes in 2004, they didn't say how many got pregnant, but out of that many, I would say there were a few more than you would like to acknowledge

[Eagler]

Originally posted by Sixpence
What is your point, that she should have to carry the baby?
btw, if I read corectly, there were 94,000 rapes in 2004, they didn't say how many got pregnant, but out of that many, I would say there were a few more than you would like to acknowledge

Just the opposite - rape/incest should be allowed to abort if the mother wanted to go that route

The truth is, those are very small percentages of the total (say 100,000 attacks of which 1000 result in pregnancy), I've heard less than 1% - the majority are just after the fact "birth control" of everyday irresponsible fornication. It has to do with the sanctity of human life or the lack of it...and the selfishness that has consumed the world today
 
Peace

[lazs2]

Ok sandie... fair enough.. at least you gave a black and white answer... you said that a fetus ceases to be a "parasite" at birth..

earlier you said the the host's needs trumped those of the parasite... so... you are saying that if the mother is 9 months pregnant but really really "needs" to get into that new dress for her friends bachlorette party... she should be able to get an abortion...  the fetus is a parisite with no rights.

I agree in one way with you... many people are parasites and they certainly interfere with my needs from time to time..  In the mothers case... what if the baby doesn't draw breath and she just smothers it as it is born and then throws it in the dumpster... we are talking about a matter of a minute difference here between what you would allow and the dumpster using mom.

I admit to being cowardly on the subject and look at humans as only fetus that can survive outside the womb and develop into a healthy human.

I just get squeemish when we kill something that is completely human in every way just as a matter of convienience.   Not really sure that is the human thing to do.

no religion involved.   I just don't like to see innocent people killed... especially the most innocent.    I thought we were supposed to protect em?  now I am being told that we only protect their lives if the mother says so?

I honestly think that a lot of men take the easy position of abortion on demand simply because they think it will increase their chances of getting laid and... because... heck... you can't really see a fetus... let the doctor see it and deal with it... It don't look like a human to us... just some big fat part of a woman.

lazs

[Sandman]

Originally posted by lazs2

I admit to being cowardly on the subject and look at humans as only fetus that can survive outside the womb and develop into a healthy human.

I just get squeemish when we kill something that is completely human in every way just as a matter of convienience.   Not really sure that is the human thing to do.

no religion involved.   I just don't like to see innocent people killed... especially the most innocent.    I thought we were supposed to protect em?  now I am being told that we only protect their lives if the mother says so?

I honestly think that a lot of men take the easy position of abortion on demand simply because they think it will increase their chances of getting laid and... because... heck... you can't really see a fetus... let the doctor see it and deal with it... It don't look like a human to us... just some big fat part of a woman.

lazs

I don't trust the government to make the right decision with regard to abortions. It is indeed a serious decision and I believe that most women do not enter into it lightly. Certainly, there are many that abuse the right to an abortion, but given the choice between letting the government or letting the individuals make these decisions, I think the latter is the lesser of two evils.

[lazs2]

and I belive that your answer is even more cowardly and wishy washy than mine..

by a long shot.    

By your logic... I should not trust the court in a murder case of someone I cared about and it should be my right to choose... I just take the shot and gun him down in the street.

You must realize how dehumanizing your answer is.

You never answered any of my questions... just pap from you.  worthless and cowardly soundbites.

you seem to be allright with the "wait till the head appears and then play whack a mole with a chrome ball peen if that is what the mother wants" idea...

or the nine month abortion to fit into new clothes idea.

you seem to feel that black and white solutions are evil.   How do you figure life and death are not black and white?  you seem perfectly able to make those black and white decisions and on something as easy as a whim or convienence... you lump non viable humans in with viable humans and dire emergbency in with convienence and whim...  You are real "black and white" on this one... or..

real cowardly moraly.

lazs

[rshubert]

Originally posted by Sandman
or not.


You see... the moment someone starts talking about legislating abortion rights away, they immediately start talking about exceptions and exclusions. If you truly believe that it is murder and that no woman has the right to choose an abortion,  you have to believe that aborting a fetus that resulted from rape or incest is equally murder.

Here's another way to say it, sandman.

Killing a human being is always Homicide.  Sometimes homicide is murder.  Sometimes homicide is justified.

Can we agree on that?  I think so, since you justify the killing of a human life (your words) while that life is being carried by the mother.  Now, our only possible argument is "under WHAT CIRCUMSTANCES is homicide justifiable?"

I say that it is justifiable under the following circumstances:

1.  In self defense.
2.  In defense of the innocent.

(1) would cover war, assault, and (gasp) abortion to SAVE THE LIFE of the mother.

(2) would cover war and assault.

Neither (1) or (2) applies in the event of a "convenience" abortion, an abortion performed for essentially "lifestyle" reasons.  That makes those abortions unjustifiable, and therefore murder.

It's really pretty simple, in concept.  In practice, it is very complicated.  People such as you who treat it like an all-or-nothing battle of absolutes aren't thinking.

[lazs2]

but shubie.... what if the mother couldn't fit into her old clothes because of the parasite she was carrying?

surely you would allow abortion in that case?

lazs

[Sandman]

I went back to find the actual questions. There weren't that many. I think you want rebuttal for many of your points, but I didn't bite.

Originally posted by lazs2
So sandie... you think that government should not decide on or punish murder?   that is government interferance to you?

The government doesn't consider abortion to be murder. I think the government should punish murderers. So... let's see. No and yes to the first question, and a no to the second.

Originally posted by lazs2

earlier you said the the host's needs trumped those of the parasite... so... you are saying that if the mother is 9 months pregnant but really really "needs" to get into that new dress for her friends bachlorette party... she should be able to get an abortion...  the fetus is a parisite with no rights.

It's a rather ridiculous question, don't you think? Okay... here's an answer. A woman this trivial should have her womb removed right along with the fetus.

Originally posted by lazs2

 In the mothers case... what if the baby doesn't draw breath and she just smothers it as it is born and then throws it in the dumpster... we are talking about a matter of a minute difference here between what you would allow and the dumpster using mom.

...but it is indeed born. According to the law, it's murder (at least in this state).

Originally posted by lazs2

By your logic... I should not trust the court in a murder case of someone I cared about and it should be my right to choose... I just take the shot and gun him down in the street.

Quite often on this BBS someone can make a point and the counterpoint is to take the stated position and run it out to the nth degree. I'm not playing that by your logic, by my logic game. It's rather pointless to take bits and pieces of my perspective and filter them through yours, expecting me to argue a position that's then assigned to me.

---
I think I have the answer. Maybe a form of abortion-control. That's the ticket. Mandatory sterilization for any woman that gets some number of abortions. Hmmm... the liberals won't go for it because it's too severe, and the conservatives won't because it's too lenient.

[Sandman]

Originally posted by rshubert

It's really pretty simple, in concept.  In practice, it is very complicated.  People such as you who treat it like an all-or-nothing battle of absolutes aren't thinking.

Ahem... I'm the one that likes gray.

[rshubert]

Originally posted by lazs2
but shubie.... what if the mother couldn't fit into her old clothes because of the parasite she was carrying?

surely you would allow abortion in that case?

lazs

Now, be serious...we're trying to work on his head, here.  Sarcasm just muddies the waters.

[DREDIOCK]

Originally posted by Eagler
DREDIOCK
how old are you sir?
do you have kids? grandchildren?
Has someone close to you been involved with an abortion?

just wondering what you base your opinion,  feel free not to answer

No problem.

I turned 44 on this past Spt 19th

2 Kids

1 Boy 17
1 Girl 9


Although I do know a few people who have had abortions. Nobody "close" to me has had one like say, My sister,my wife, former girlfiends or my mother. If thats what you mean.

But, if they found themselves in the position where they had to make a choice I would support them no matter which choice they made.

My Wife for example with our second child paced the possibility of complications due to age and some other underlying factors I'll not get into here.
I asked her what she wanted to do and told her I would support whatever decision she made.
She does not beleive in abortion exept under special circumstances such as rape.
so it was never really an issue.
However, The hospital where she works and geve birth to both of our kids is a catholic hospital which has the policy of "save the baby before the mother" Meaning. if there are complications at childbirth and they have to make a choice between saving the baby, or the mother. the baby wins.

It is a policy I do NOT agree with and made it absolutely,and perfectly clear in no uncertain terms to the doctor at the time that should there be a problem. My wife was more important to me then the baby and he was to go against hospital policy and save my wife.

Fortunately for everybody, including the doctor everything came off withouta hitch.

But even knowing what I know now and looking at my beautiful daugher 9 years later whom I love with every fiber of my being.

If my wife were to become pregnant tomorrow. I would support whatever choice she made. Even if that ment abortion

What I base my opinions on?
They are simply my personal opinions. It is simply how I view it and feel about it.

I dont view a body thats in a long term coma and on life support with zero chance of revival as a"life" either.
Much like a fetus
Its a body,its heart beats it takes in nutrition and various forms of other things only with help. But its not a "life" and at that point without support its not even a potential life

Now that may sound cold but
Its just the way I feel about it
It really doesnt go a whole lot deeper then that

But you see I, Unlike the right to lifers would never try to impose my views on it on them and tell someone else it has to be my way.
That is why I feel Choise is the best and only fair option.
You dont like it. dont do it. That is your choice.

dont get me wrong. Im not like "Yea go ahead have an abortion. and have fun doing it"

I know fully that its a difficult at best decision to make and each person must wrestle with the ideaand live with their own concience and have to make the decision that they feel is best for THEM.
Not the decision that I want or may be best for ME


It is after all her that has to carry the fetus for 9 months and all that goes with it then go through the agony of childbirth. Not me.
I've seen it first hand twice. and there is no amount of money you could pay me to go through that. Not a single part of it

And when it comes to a woman and pregnancy. The mothers rights,needs and wants outweigh the  those of the fetus, or mine.
It isnt even a close competition

[rshubert]

Originally posted by Sandman
Ahem... I'm the one that likes gray.

Well, no.

You absolutely support the woman's right to "choose" to abort the baby.  That's not gray, at all.  

Placing that decision in the hands of a person who already has shown alarming lack of judgement (people have known for a LONG time that coitus causes babies, yet some people continue to think that it can't happen to them).  I say that somebody with the interests of THE CHILD in mind should be involved in the decision.  That's why we have courts.  Perfect system?  Probably not.  But it could help save the life of many innocent HUMAN BEINGS who currently never get a chance at a life, due to a selfish, immoral act by another human being.

And yes, by the logic I put forth earlier, a "convenience" abortion is immoral.  I presume the motivation is selfish.

[Sandman]

Originally posted by rshubert
Well, no.

You absolutely support the woman's right to "choose" to abort the baby.  That's not gray, at all.  

I also absolutely support the woman's right to "choose" not to abort the baby.