A question for Christians

[mortis]

Boy I'm glad I'm an athiest.

[StSanta]

Atheist, you mean?  

Am picky about that particular word  .

Hbr 8:7 For if that first [covenant] had been faultless, then should no place have been sought for the second.

So it was flawed. God's word was flawed. Or rather, as some have suggested, human scholars started adding stuff to the text. Interesting; the Old testament can then not be said to be the word of God, and even the slightest doubt whether a passage is from a human or from divine inspiration renders the whole thing from a theological point of view tainted.

Hbr 8:13 In that he saith, A new [covenant], he hath made the first old. Now that which decayeth and waxeth old [is] ready to vanish away.

I wonder if there isn't someone else who's picked up on the potential of this one.
First of all, it indicates that sin and morals aren't timeless - rather, they're intertwined with time. What is the proper way one day may not be the next. A form of divine relativism is introduced. Quite interesting.

Since none of us can know the workings of God, it is impossible for us to say that a new change will not take place - rendering the current system obsolete. For those caught in the changeover, unless God adds a caveat covering these people, well, these people are then potential big time sinners and they cannot be sure that redemption is still valid so might remain so.

Of course, if the original words of God became tainted after a bit, this suggests there is a possibility that the current set of rules is as well - secular philosophers have argued that this is a possibility for quite a while.

It raises some interesting question. for the atheist, it is of academic interest. For the believer it is of more profound importance. But the believer also has the option of faith, which also makes the questions rather academic.

[Vulcan]

I think I'd be a buddhist if anything  

[Seeker]

One thing all you guys are forgetting......

Just as Jesus was the "Talmudic upgrade" of year 0, or there abouts,

So was Mohammet the Christian "upgrade" of about year 430.

Why are so many of you guys stil running obsolete philosophies?

You sure they're Y3K compliant?

And you Buddhists can just shut the hell up, I'm tired of your wierd syntax and koan line interface; you're just snobs not prepared to accept the fact that most believers need a GUI. (Godly Universal Inteligence)

[Greese]

HOLD ON!

Some fundamentals are escaping most of you.

First off, the whole point is the relationship between God and Man.  

Old Testament=legalism, rules, so on.  You had to milk your cow only on the third Tuesday, but not eat eggs on Saturday, or whatever.  Read Leviticus.  I am exaggerating, but the point is that there were laws about everything, and that was exactly how the relationship between God and Humanity was.  If someone committed a sin against his neighbor, he had to pay for that some how.  If someone sinned against God, he had to have an atonement (meaning, becoming one with God).  There usually was a sacrifice of some sort to pay for a sin.

Then God sent his son, Jesus, and now comes the New Testament, or a new relationship between God and Humanity.

New Testament=Grace.
The main point is, THROW THE LEGALISM, FOLLWING THE LAWS OUT THE WINDOW!!!!!!!!!!
Forget all the rules that were so heavily focused on in the Old Testament.  Jesus is there to reconcile the sins against God.  You don't have to worry about not eating Pork, or working on the Sabbath, or whatever because it is a moot point anymore.  
The new relationship that God has set up, which was planned all along, requires just one thing.
That one admits that they are not perfect, and that they will rely on Jesus as that atonement, or savior.  What happens is that when one makes this commitment in their life, they will receive the guidance of the third being in the Trinity, the Holy Spirit.  The best way to explain this, is your concience "changes".  
The whole point to this, according to Paul, the apostle who wrote many of the New Testament books, is that we can live a life free of the burdens of following all those laws, and can follow Jesus with our own Free Will.

It's not about the rules anymore.  God wants man to follow him with their heart, not just because the Jewish Law, or the Old Testament (The law book of the day) tells us to.  Sure, there are things that a christian SHOULD do, but the MAIN POINT, is not rules anymore.  It's accepting the gift of Jesus's death and ressurection, that THAT was the sacrifice that paid for ALL sins, and making the committment to follow him.

     That is the foundation of Christianity.

     Of course, as we all know, in every community, there are people who just don't get it (F4u-1c dweebs, and in the Christian community, the TBN channel) and can be very vocal about their beliefs.  The trouble is, if your not careful, you might end up believing something without investigating it for yourself. I have seen more "christians" that have it dead wrong than I can fathom, and even worse, thousands more christians who know the truth keeping their mouth shut.

-Greese
   

[ 07-31-2001: Message edited by: Greese ]

[MrBill]

Paraphrase from George Carlin, NOTE George has made no reference to God only religion

Religious roadkill.  
These people want you to believe that there is a invisible man that lives in the sky.  
He has ten rules that he commands you to follow.
If you mess up you go to hell and burn in damnation for all eternity.
BUT ... He loves you!
And he needs money!
roadkill  

Its funnier to hear George tell it.

[MrBill]

Originally posted by Seeker:
One thing all you guys are forgetting......

Just as Jesus was the "Talmudic upgrade" of year 0, or there abouts,

So was Mohammet the Christian "upgrade" of about year 430.

Why are so many of you guys stil running obsolete philosophies?

You sure they're Y3K compliant?

And you Buddhists can just shut the hell up, I'm tired of your wierd syntax and koan line interface; you're just snobs not prepared to accept the fact that most believers need a GUI. (Godly Universal Inteligence)

Oh I get it, Microsoft invented God! And being as you dummies can't learn a real OS, oops I mean religion, all at one time, we will sell it to you a piece at a time till your up to speed.  

[Kieran]

Let me break it down simpler.

God creates man, places him in paradise along with free will. Man ultimately chooses his own path (which is against God). This is sin, so God forces man to leave paradise. Purpose: to show that man is rebellious and sinful by nature.

God creates the Law, providing a way for man to reconcile sin. Man ultimately fouls this up too, adding his own interpretations to the Law and using the Law to abuse his fellow man. Man had missed the meaning and purpose of the Law:

 

Now a man came to Jesus and said, "Teacher, what good thing must I do to get eternal life?"

"Why do you ask me about what is good?" Jesus replied. "There is only One who is good. If you want to enter life, obey the Commandments."

"Which ones?" the man inquired.

Jesus replied, "Do not murder, do not commit adultery, do not steal, do not give false testimony, honor thy father and mother, and 'love your neighbor as thyself."

"All these I have kept," the young man said. "What still do I lack?"

Jesus answered, "If you want to be perfect, go, sell your possessions and give to the poor, and you will have treasure in heaven. Then come follow me."

When the young man heard this, he went away sad, because he had great wealth.

Then Jesus said to his disciples, "I tell you the truth, it is hard for a rich man to enter the kingdom of heaven. Again I tell you, it is easier for a camel to go through the eye of a needle than for a rich man to enter the kingdom of God.

When the disciples heard this, they were greatly astonished and said, "Who then can be saved?"

Jesus looked at them and said, "With man this is impossible, but with God all things are possible."  Matthew 20:16-26

The rich man sought to make himself perfect through strict obedience to the law. Jesus revealed the man's weakness- he worshipped his money more than God. The disciples understood the significance of the event. They realized that no one would be able to achieve perfection on their own. "With God, all things are possible" alludes to the fact that it is only God's grace that allows absolution of sin and entrance to heaven.

This was Jesus' mission on earth. Jesus was born to provide a way to wash away sin and to enter heaven.

Man is flawed--> removed from paradise.

Man is shown what needs to happen to achieve perfection through practice of Law--> realizes that no person could possibly follow all the laws without fail.

Jesus arrives and is sacrificed for all sins past, present, and future--> the way to heaven (through God's grace) is opened.

The Old Testament is not outdated, it is part of the plan. The word wasn't/isn't changed. The truth that was there is there. There is no contradiction.

[Eagler]

for those that believe, no explanation is needed

for those that don't no explanation will suffice..

nitpickers, hair splitters, whatever it takes to justify a self satisfying life style you've chosen this time round.

what goes around comes around, don't have to believe or not believe in anything as you can't escape this eventuality of life

[mrfish]

i can't believe in a cruel god that's all.

silly:
he creates man which is flawed. god created everything so he created evil too then. if he didnt then there is something higher or at least outside of god and his word is fake.  so given your flaws you have a few short decades to avoid a myriad of temptations all created by god and then you are send to hell for infinity if you dont do it right?

talk about setting you up to fail-is this for god's amusement? and if you are going to create a universe and can do it any way you want - why create one where life has to feed on life to survive.....it only sets the stage for suffering. i have seen lions start eating a wildebeast while it is still alive and in agony - is this god's way? every year of earth's history many humans and animals freeze and starve to death. its natural alright but why design it so it has to be that way?

this is where every christian argument breaks down to the cosmic copout - "he works in mysteeeeeeeerious ways" yeah, whatever, in other words it makes no sense to you either. and all this time the invisible spaceguy sits secretly watching and judges us....

i mean, even if you were a buddhist monk that never sinned and spent his life raising orphans and avoiding killing even a bug suddenly died at the age of 25 - for those 2 decades on earth doing good deeds you now spend:

2 decades of good deeds

equals:
 10000000000000000000000000000 0
00000000000000000000000000000 00
00000000000000000000000000000 00
00000000000000000000000000000 00
00000000000000000000000000000 00
00000000000000000000000000000 00
00000000000000000000000000000 00
00000000000000000000000000000 00
00000000000000000000000000000 00
00000000000000000000000000000 00
00000000000000000000000000000 00
00000000000000000000000000000 00
00000000000000000000000000000 00
00000000000000000000000000000 00
00000000000000000000000000000 00
00000^1000000000000000000000000
00000000000000000000000000000 00
00000000000000000000000000000 00
00000000000000000000000000000 00
00000000000000000000000000000 00
00000000000000000000000000000 00
00000000000000000000000000000 00
00000000000000000000000000000 00
0000000000........ decades receiving unspeakable horrors??? all because you didnt profess that jesus is the undisputed savior? that doesnt sound like a hissy fit to you?

i think cristians tried to figure out what life was all about one day and like everyone else and when it got tough they went runnin for the skirts of mysticism. all cultures do because uncertainty is so frightening.

 not everyone who is not a christian leads a self serving lifestyle as you pious types would love to believe. some of us are capable of having a moral system on it's merits alone and without the threat of eternal damnation. imagine that - just doing something because it's right and not out of fear!

if you need threats to stay in line then perhaps its best for you. if the void is that frightening to you then keep fantasising - the rest of us will worry about creating a good place on earth in the here and now.

[ 07-31-2001: Message edited by: mrfish ]

[Eagler]

no mrfish
that's where the "organized" side of religion blinds ppl. the monk in your story will be rewarded for a proper life as his karma dictates. ppl all around the world live good unselfish, giving lifes and have never even heard of Jesus, Mohammand, Buddha, put your fav messiah here.. and are rewarded with "good vibes" similarly murders and other doers of "evil" receive "bad vibes" for their future journey(s). The rest of us are in between, judged, for a lack of a better term, for our choices and receive what we sow. ppl need to think in universal terms, underlying themes and not get wrapped up in specifics. used properly organized religion will lead to enlightenment, used for selfish/materialistic gains it leads to darkness, pain, suffering... just like every other choice we make in our daily lives..

[mrfish]

is that according to the bible? if so why is there a discrepancy among denominations citing the bible as their doctrine?

i've heard catholics using purgatory?? where's that in the bible? was that a concession for people who couldn't fathom this punishment system? kinda like elevating mary in the renaissance because people were losing interest in a stern iconic jesus? or incorporating a saint for each season to accommodate the multi-god pagans who couldn't quite get use to having a single diety? sounds like humans trying to hard to cover for the inconsistencies...

[skernsk]

Wow..deep for a Tuesday.

Religion is a tough concept for many.  I personally would like to see the bible as God or whoever it was wrote it.  

As you can tell from the above statement I am not a church going person.  However I do believe in God, Bhudda, Allah, the Great Spirit or whoever you want to call it.  I have a big problem with the church simply because they have lied in the past ie: "pay me 100 bucks to get out of pergatory"

[Kieran]

MrFish-

Wow. Where did you read that any of the Christians posting here were admonishing you?

God gives us free will. Yes, he could have created us perfect, but did not. I don't know why.

God allows bad things to happen, true enough. Again, I don't know why. A lot of times the bad things that happen are a result of our own doing. Watch Jerry Springer and you get the idea.

The idea that all people are evil and flawed- is that so hard to understand? Do you deny that you or anyone else has had a selfish thought? Yup, that is evil. Everyone is flawed, even the hypothetical monk. What we are debating here really is relativism- a human concept. To God there is no relativism, only absolutism. Sin is sin, that's it.

I would never judge you and say you are a rotten person- I don't even know you. I do know that scripture says we are all evil in heart, and that is what I mean when I say everyone is flawed. I also know that scripture says that salvation only comes through the acceptance of Jesus as Savior and Lord. Whether you accept it or not makes little difference; He is Savior and Lord anyway. The only choice you have is to decide to follow Him or not.

I am not perfect. If I appear overly pious, sorry. If we were standing side-by-side I doubt you would see much difference between us. I am just as flawed as anyone, I have selfish, evil thoughts all the time. I have done things that are evil. I am a sinner. The one difference between us is that I acknowledge the fact I am a sinner and that Jesus is the only way I can be saved.

My intent in all that I do is to do the right thing, and yes, that matters. I do recognize that I will ultimately fall short, but I should continue to try regardless. I ask for forgiveness for my sins. I ask for God's guidance in my life. I thank Him for the many things He does for me.

Pious- maybe. But I am not sure you understand what it really means to be a Christian. Being a Christian means understanding that you accomplish nothing without God. In that context it has quite the opposite meaning you assign to it. Being a Christian is about denying one's self for the good of others, not standing over them in judgement.

[mrfish]

had nothing to do with you kieran read this:

"for those that don't [believe] no explanation will suffice..

nitpickers, hair splitters, whatever it takes to justify a self satisfying life style you've chosen this time round."

that's the voice of christian righteousness insulting people who doubt the ridiculous bible story and calling their doubt petty and trivial. the same faith whose leaders killed people for daring to suggest the earth went round the sun. the bible is ripe with inconsistencies yet it is supposed to be the divinely inspired work of god and unquestionable in its authority.

how many angels were present at the empty sepulcher btw fter jesus resurrection? it isn't hair-splitting or nit-picking it is exposing flaws in a book that is supposed to be the perfect word and commandment of god. it obviously isnt.the point is:

if you can doubt part of it - why believe any of it? any part then has an equal chance of being incorrect if any one part of it is flawed.

so maybe you can answer my question: you are ok with the hypothetical monk going to hell for infinity for not professing his faith in christ? you feel the punishment fits the "crime"?