Neo-Nazism and Re-enactment groups...

[Tachus]

Originally posted by Angus
Well, the liberty of anyone encouraging violent acts against people of a certain colour or origin is in my mind questionable, as well as being proved in history as ...quite brutal.
Where does the line cross.
 

That is the question, and it's not any easy one.

In the end we view this from different ends of the spectrum.

Since we don't start from the same place, we're not likely end up in the same place.

Your want to prevent a specific minority from becoming the majority, because the new majority would oppress minorities.

You want to ensure this by removing the rights of the minority. (This seems ironic)

I want to prevent any majority from oppressing a minority.

I want to ensure that doesn't happen by ensuring that no minority is not stripped of it's rights.

I'm glad I live in America an not Germany.

You're probably glad you don't live in America.

I'm happy, your happy, were all happy.

Best regards,
--Tachus

[Angus]

End point???? A second chance perhaps?

The "screw-up" end point happens to be the same too often.

BEFORE:
The Nazi ideology had their go. Firstly it brought a target group to prey and blame all upon,
It brought a very violent war in the western world. It brought genocide never topped. It brought total war between  civilized nations, and this time it was not all about politics.

AFTER:
It brings denialism of previous attrocities. It re-introduces the old ideology of racism. It re-introduces the target groups to blame upon. It is already in the heavily armed and violent category in the USA. And in the "regulation tortured Europe" you have still the liberty (which I even doubt you have in the USA) of THOUSANDS of NAZIS marching through cities to protest allied attrocities (RAF and USSAF) like Dresden.
German law will probably get them busted for making a Hitler's salute, - however rounding up is just rounding up.
Would you belive in 3000 tattooed Neo-Nazis getting through an American city without trouble, or would you think they would be cheered? All a matter of a propoganda, and history based propoganda works best on those who don't know squat about history.
("Nazis = cool" Almost made Germany the masters of the world.  >"If not  for the dumb Brits and the Commies, it might have worked. Jews out, Negros out, etc etc")
Wanna have this blurting into your kid's ears?

[Angus]

BTW, - as an official freedom, am I right that exposed titties are still banned on open TV channels in the USA?
And wasn't the TV-series "Soap" kicked out of the way of public TV by "The Moral Majority"?
I'd kick the Nazi stuff out and watch "Soap" and Topless......

[Vudak]

Angus, I'm shaking my head here.  You just aren't getting the basic points I've been reiterating in every reply.

Let's just leave it at what Tachus said:

"I'm glad I live in America an not Germany.

You're probably glad you don't live in America.

I'm happy, your happy, were all happy."

[GtoRA2]

Originally posted by Angus
End point???? A second chance perhaps?

The "screw-up" end point happens to be the same too often.

BEFORE:
The Nazi ideology had their go. Firstly it brought a target group to prey and blame all upon,
It brought a very violent war in the western world. It brought genocide never topped. It brought total war between  civilized nations, and this time it was not all about politics.

AFTER:
It brings denialism of previous attrocities. It re-introduces the old ideology of racism. It re-introduces the target groups to blame upon. It is already in the heavily armed and violent category in the USA. And in the "regulation tortured Europe" you have still the liberty (which I even doubt you have in the USA) of THOUSANDS of NAZIS marching through cities to protest allied attrocities (RAF and USSAF) like Dresden.
German law will probably get them busted for making a Hitler's salute, - however rounding up is just rounding up.
Would you belive in 3000 tattooed Neo-Nazis getting through an American city without trouble, or would you think they would be cheered? All a matter of a propoganda, and history based propoganda works best on those who don't know squat about history.
("Nazis = cool" Almost made Germany the masters of the world.  >"If not  for the dumb Brits and the Commies, it might have worked. Jews out, Negros out, etc etc")
Wanna have this blurting into your kid's ears?

Do you have no faith at all in your neighbors being good people? Honestly, do you think if YOU listened to Nazi propaganda for days on end would it effect you? You KNOW its BS, most normal good people do, even kids.
I know it wouldn't effect me, hell and I even heard some minor stuff growing up from my grandparents. I do not for a second think there is any effective difference between the races beyond the superficial appearance factor.

Why if you feel the same, and I would hope you do, would you think your neighbors or the general populace would be any more likely to fall for this tired old BS?

The ones who do are for the most part loser with issues, they type who would end up in prison for something at somepoint.  Its pretty rare for a normal person to just go Neo Nazi, I have never met one who didn't start out with a ****ed up family.

Society does not need to be protected by restricting our rights further then they are.  I do not want the government to protect me from neo nazi propaganda, I can do that on my own. As can just about any normal person.

I do want my government to protect me from their violence though.  My government is fairly good at this. From what I understand the klan was infiltrated very badly and is now a joke. Neo nazi have always been a joke and I am sure the FBI has them infiltrated as well. If they ever become a threat the FBI will take care of it like they did with the Klan.

This thread and the gun thread have one similarity in reference to you Angus.  My impression from you on this board is your a good guy, your concerned about the world and want to make it a better place.  I would never worry about a guy like you as my neighbor, and that would include knowing you had an arsenal similar to mine.  I know several of my neighbor own firearms. The NRA stickers give them away, and that makes me more comfortable not less. See I trust my neighbors to be people like me, who just want to get through life as happy as they can.  I am not a thief, not a vandal or litter bug, I smile and wave and talk to them, they do the same. I trust that they will be living their lives like I live mine and they wont mess with me. I don't worry about them at all.  

It sounds to me like this is where we differ, you seem to be worried that the normal everyday guy like you, who has similar concerns and wants for his family and is a good guy is somehow going to change when he gets a gun. That the gun is going to take good people who do not break the law and make them murderers. It's just not the case.

Now if you trusted your neighbors, and with rules that require gun safes for firearms, why would you care if your neighbor got an AR-15 or a Semi Auto Ak, why restrict people who don't commit crimes?  

Really go take a close look at some of the numbers people Like Charon have posted in the past.  Law abiding gun owners do not break the law. In the states we issue concealed carry permits to people easily, there are almost no cases of them doing anything to get the permits revokes that involved shooting someone.

Your country does not have gun crime because of its people. Because they are all mostly like you, and just want to live their live in peace.  The US, has problem you do not.  Hell you could probably issue every law abiding citizen with no history of mental disease a machine gun and you crime rate wouldn't change. As long as your economy keeps people working.

Maybe you should think about your fellow man a bit and trust him more, they are no more likely to be swayed by neo nazi bull**** then you are.  If thats the case, then restricting a fundamentally important right like free speech is not needed, and you maybe can understand why I think its is such an awful idea.

[McFarland]

To put in an understandable way:

Ok, we don't like Nazis. They are the scourge of the world. They cause all our problems. Ok, let's restrict what they can say. Well, now we have a few problems. Let's put them in ghettos now. Ok, they are still around, and might cause problems to our ways. Well, let's make them work their lives away in a concentration camp. Not solving the problem, Nazi's are still there. Ok, put them in gas chambers..... oh, wait, didn't the Nazis do this? Hmmmm..... in our urge to clear the world of Nazis and make everything good and unoppressed, we have now become oppressors and Nazis ourselves. We are what we were fighting. We must do the same to ourselves now. But we don't want to do that, now do we? So, what do we do? We don't oppress anybody. We let them live their way, we live ours. We aren't influenced by them. We are smart enough not to listen and let ourselves be misguided by them. We know where it will lead. The same place it began. Freedom of Speech only if goes your way isn't Freedom. It's oppression. The thing we started out fighting is what we have become. I beleive GtoRA2 got it right in his last post.

[Viking]

I just wish the Anti-Nazis would stop acting like Nazis in trying to "protect" us from ... the freedom to speak our mind. Who gets to chose what views and ideas we need to be "protected " against? If you ban even one single word or idea then there is no freedom of speech at all, and if you think that limiting personal freedoms is a good thing then you are just as big an enemy of freedom and an enemy of mine as the skinhead idiots. In fact you are a bigger threat to freedom than the Nazis since you are not as obviously oppressive as they are.

[Holden McGroin]

Originally posted by Viking
I just wish the Anti-Nazis would stop acting like Nazis in trying to "protect" us from ... the freedom to speak our mind. Who gets to chose what views and ideas we need to be "protected " against?

The thought police.

The difference between the neo-nazi idiots speading their hatred filled rhetoric and the government policing what we can think and say is quite apparent to me.

I think I can tolerate a bunch of brown shirted idiots, as long as they do not have the force of law behind them.

[storch]

Originally posted by Viking
I just wish the Anti-Nazis would stop acting like Nazis in trying to "protect" us from ... the freedom to speak our mind. Who gets to chose what views and ideas we need to be "protected " against? If you ban even one single word or idea then there is no freedom of speech at all, and if you think that limiting personal freedoms is a good thing then you are just as big an enemy of freedom and an enemy of mine as the skinhead idiots. In fact you are a bigger threat to freedom than the Nazis since you are not as obviously oppressive as they are.

sheesh kitty you could become a true american by simply possessing a thought process like this.  

[Angus]

Ehhh...Viking:
Nazis had their go at their goal and got...the red card. They're building up again, and mostly consist of idiots, - (your wording), apart from the fanatics with a mind who stand behind their buildup.
Now that reminds me a little of how they got registered into the history books in the first place. And the naughty parts of history are some we need to learn from so that they do not repeat themselves.
Maybe the only thing we learn from history is the we don't learn from history. But that counts for the idiots, and some idiots have power and many can be recruited into "Waves"
HoldenMcGroin:
"I think I can tolerate a bunch of brown shirted idiots, as long as they do not have the force of law behind them."
Exactly there. They started off as brown skirted idiots. With thuggy methods and "sort of" through Democracy they did indeed grab the force of law in a big country. And then they showed their true nature to the world.

BTW, maybe my definition, but IMHO you have Neo Nazis of all sorts. The main term is the hitler-worshipping neo Nazi. Then you have the foreign-haters, and colour haters, religion based haters etc. I have a problem with them by putting them all under the hat of "nazi". Maybe I should use another word?

[Tachus]

Angus, maybe you should explain exactly how you propose to deal with this issue?

Are you talking about banning public gatherings?

Banning certain clothing?

Banning parts of their speech? (Which parts, what is ok to say, and what's not)

Banning all of their speech?

Banning their literature?

How will you ensure, these bans are "NEVER" applied to other groups?

How do you define "Hate" as in hate based religion. (Is saying something is immoral, Hate? Is quoting a passage from the a religious book considered Hate?)

Is using an offensive term when referring a certain people group Hate?


Saying something should be banned is easy, defining it in practical terms and ensuring that those bans are confined to those terms in the future are not.

I can see the day, when someone denounces our welfare state, and people stand up and say, "You're inciting hatred toward those on welfare, you can't say that"

There are already cases in both Canada and the UK where someone has said an action is immoral and they are charge with inciting the public or a hate crime.

BTW, I should point out, though a person has a right to free speech our society does do a certain amount of self policing. Imus lost his job because of offensive racial language. I'm not aware of any radio stations playing KKK or Nazi call in talk shows. (Because the public outcry would doom the radio station.) Most employers do not tolerate a racist attitude in the work place (nor sexist) We had a sports announcer get in trouble (with the public) because he said women golfers would never be great because there "boobs" get in the way. Howard Cosell, was rake across the coals because he said, "That monkey can really get loose" while referring to the black receiver. (Many aren't sure he meant it in a negative way) Rush lost his job at ESPN because he said he thought McNabb was over hyped by the media because he was black. (He was making an observation, and lost his job)

So in our case I suppose, a certain amount of "speech" is suppressed by our culture. If a person is going to be ridiculed or lose their job, they tend not be speak to freely. But there is a big difference between that and governmental legislation that restricts that speech.

Best regards,
--Tachus

[moot]

What McGroin said...

[Jackal1]

The very best way that I would know of to promote Nazi , and similar power monger groups, and to give it new rise would be to squash their freedom of speech by making laws/bans in an attempt to totaly squash them. At that time, you have in fact, became the Nazi promoter by implementing their tactics and views.
You have taken a very big step towards promotion of their beliefs at that time. You have taken a chunk of your own freedom in the process and given more power to a governing body and taken the majority factor way.
 You have created and promoted the taking away of the very freedoms that will keep history from repeating itself.  Without freedom and the freely giving up and promoting such practices you will defeat yourself as a country....as a world in general.
 Hitler`s rule, power and the Nazi regime were not just about racism. The rise came slowly, intentionaly  , with a very well laid out plan. Racism was used as a banner to rally a people and lull them into giving up all of their rights and turning their future over to an all powerful governing body, over a period of years. The very first steps , which started slowly and very subtle were to coerce people into turning their fate and their destiny as a country over to a body of power other than the people themselves. Slowly at first, then gaining speed as power was increased by the taking and chipping at individual freedoms, but most importantly, taking away any chance of the people to defend themselves and others from an all governing, all powerful, all ruling body. By the time the people could actualy see the light and once again started thinking for themselves, it was too late. They were at the total mercy of a governing body of which they themselves had promoted and been lulled into believing had their best interests in mind . You either kept quiet, towed the line or you were eliminated. There were no options at that point. No voice. No freedom . No hope. It was too late for the voice and power of the people. They had none. They had it  taken  away from them , given it up slowly, but most certainly to the point of no return.
It is not the Neo-Nazi clowns in the public eye , making morons of themselves that is the biggest enemy. They defeat themselves in the public eye.
The biggest enemy is the silent,  hidden powers who are slowly , but surely guiding the populations into relinquishing their freedom of speech, their voice  and giving up the very things that can defend a people against an all powerful , all governing body other than the people themselves.
WE are our own worst enemy. WE are letting it happen. WE have and are still letting our rights be taken away and in a lot of cases, as seen here on this board, more than willing to fall into an age old trap.
Give up your freedom, and your right to defend against such things , give up or have taken away from you your power and tools of defense as a people and you are at the mercy of something that you allowed to freely dominate you.

[storch]

what jackal said.  

[Tachus]

What Tachus said.  


Wait, that's me.... no wonder I was so impressed by those posts.

--Tachus