Author Topic: Are you good enough to tell when a player won't HO? (Read 4745 times)

SlapShot · « **Reply #75 on:** January 16, 2008, 01:05:51 PM »

Quote

Originally posted by BaldEagl
I agree that if I die to a deflection on the merge I get pissed at myself for allowing it.

On the other hand, if I set up for a HO and the guy beg's off at the last moment and I kill him on the deflection, I still know it was a HO. I intended to HO the whole time and carried it through and won, even though my opponent tried to avoid it. I don't try to justify it as a deflection shot to save my honor... it's still a HO.

OK .. I see where you are coming from.

I never setup for the HO (except when I am about to get vulched) ... I ALWAYS try to setup my merge for a lean turn with the hopes of gaining angles in my favor.

Now, if my lead turn is pulling into you, and you are trying to counter my lead turn and present me with a snapshot ... I will rake you from prop to tail without blinking an eye.

I primarily fly .50 cal planes, and these types of deflection/snapshots usually don't result in an instant kill, but rather they remove vital parts, or oil damage, or kill you engine. If any of these cases is true, then I really have the upper hand for the remainder of the fight.

Here is some scenarios and how I approach them if I am tooling around in my F6F.

If I am alone and encounter any lone Spit/Zeke/Hurri, I am looking to hurt you before the merge if the situation presents itself ... not via a HO ... I avoid using HO at all costs ... but if during the merge, they present a snapshot, I am taking it in hopes of hobbling him at the start and we will see what happens from there.

If I am alone and encounter any plane that is comparable to my HellCat, I will not look for the merge snapshot ... I am hoping that after the merge the fight is on and it's a good one ... win or lose.

If I am alone and encounter any multiples or I encounter just one, with another or more within icon range ... I will try to knock you out of the sky as fast as possible ... without the HO at the start. If things progress to a point where I am low and slow and struggling ... all bets are off and I will take any any all shots available ... HO, snapshot, etc.

dedalos · « **Reply #76 on:** January 16, 2008, 01:13:59 PM »

Quote

Originally posted by Yeager
If I'm coming around a break turn with 3 cons on my a@@ and get HO'd by the fourth that's hardly self-incriminating.
====
To me this isnt even a merge. Thats just a bad situation to let yourself get into. Again, the fourth con is practically obligated to shoot you down. If he doesn't, one of the other three surely will.

Not always, even if they do, a couple will be in the tower when its all done. Actually, the 4th guy is taking a good situation for his team mates and makes it bad. They could very easily kill shoot them selfs if they fire at the wrong time or they could get picked off by someone diving in. The 4th guy should stay above them and watch their back. That would actually be team play.

Then again, if any of that happened, you guys will tell them that it was bad SA on their end

captain1ma · « **Reply #77 on:** January 16, 2008, 01:21:07 PM »

In case no one had figured it out, war is hell and theres no second places. Ho'ing although un-ethical is a way to A) kill the other guy B) get points. many frown apon it, but ask yourself this question, if it was real life would you shoot or hope your opponent had standards and ethics. my theory is there is no honor among thieves and i wouldn't take that chance. ill take the shot, if he's dead and I'm not, so much the better. I'll still sleep good and night and be able to face the guy in the mirror in the morning. if i die, then it doesn't matter anyway. its a game boys, treat it as such. if you're getting ho'ed and getting frustrated, move to a different airbase. no one says you have to keep getting ho'ed or vulched. sorry just my 2 cents.

jaeger1
jg54

dedalos · « **Reply #78 on:** January 16, 2008, 01:25:41 PM »

Quote

Originally posted by captain1ma
In case no one had figured it out, war is hell and theres no second places. Ho'ing although un-ethical is a way to A) kill the other guy B) get points. many frown apon it, but ask yourself this question, if it was real life would you shoot or hope your opponent had standards and ethics. my theory is there is no honor among thieves and i wouldn't take that chance. ill take the shot, if he's dead and I'm not, so much the better. I'll still sleep good and night and be able to face the guy in the mirror in the morning. if i die, then it doesn't matter anyway. its a game boys, treat it as such. if you're getting ho'ed and getting frustrated, move to a different airbase. no one says you have to keep getting ho'ed or vulched. sorry just my 2 cents.

jaeger1
jg54

Thats the point, it does not matter because there is no penalty for it. In real life, and I don;t care what the TV or you guys say, I would sure as hell won't be putting myself in a situation looking strait into 6 or 8 guns. Not by design anyway.

Ghastly · « **Reply #79 on:** January 16, 2008, 01:27:22 PM »

Toonces, I'd be happy to take up a Corsair against you in a Hurri and let you see how I would have merged to avoid the obvious HO - and as Lute alludes to, 7 out of 10 times, kill him before he can get around on me.

Or better yet, go see a trainer and have someone who's a really good show you how (I'm just "better than average").

You need never (or at least, 99%+ of the time won't) die to the HO when 1 v 1 unless you screw up (to the point where you knew it before it happened), and will get to where the moment you see one you being attempted you can pretty much dismiss the player as likely little more than another scalp on your belt.

bustr · « **Reply #80 on:** January 16, 2008, 01:30:42 PM »

Quote

Originally posted by toonces3
Bustr,
I'm not sure what your question has to do with the topic at hand.

My question stems from a not-infrequent occurance.

One night I'm in Mid. I'm flying off the CV with Mole and some other guy, 3 of us against 3 or 4 guys about 20 miles away at their field. Not trying to capture, just dogfighting.

I log on and Mole says, "I've got some good fights going on with Oldman over here."

So I up a Seafire, head on over and get into a great fight with Oldman22. He goes down, comes back up, we are getting ready to merge. We're nose to nose, but just so he knows I'm not going to shoot I do my little wing wiggle nose bump out thing. We merge go into our fight and I get shot down. We . Nice fight.

Now, I have 2 kids and alot of work to do, so I only have an hour to play. This is all the AH I'm gonna get today. I up a F4U-1, a plane I'm not too good in. Heading to the field, taking a few minutes to grab alt. I see 2 Hurri 2c's coming in. I go into the merge with Hurri #1. I do my wing wiggle nose bump thing so he knows I'm not going to HO him. His nose is a bit off the side too. Should be a clean merge. Then 400 yards out, "Stickpig" kicks his rudder into me and opens up with his cannons and takes off my wing. I go down.

For 30 minutes I've been having good fights, now I just wasted 10-15 minutes of my hour of game time flying into a freaking HO. Not fun.

I up again. Same scenario. I'm hoping this time it's Oldman22 and not Stickpig. I open up a bit, nose comes right to me and opens up and before I even have a chance to evade I am right to the tower by NC33.

Now my game time is up, with the last 30 minutes taken up with two quick HO deaths.

For me, I would have like to see how I could handle that Corsair against a Hurri for a few minutes. For them, I was a quick kill and a few perks.

I don't have all day and night to play this game. This was a total waste of my time.

My question to YOU was whether, by performing an early avoidance maneuver to get my nose close, but not on you, could you tell that I was setting up NOT to HO you, because I don't want you to HO me because you think I'm gonna HO YOU. That's it.

Somehow, I think in that situation Stickpig and NC33 were gonna HO me with their woobiecanes no matter what I did. Maybe not. Maybe they thought I was gonna HO them. Did my maneuver make a difference? That's MY question to YOU.

Whether you should or shouldn't HO, or whether the community has any input, I've read that discussion enough times. I really don't care what the answer is.

This sounds like you wish HOing could be asked to leave the room in deference to your personal needs.

My wife's observation was rooted in years of putting up with my rants about HOing and her reading these threads to keep from shooting me in my sleep. Her concern with her HR perspective observation is how easy it is for groups of people who have a similare dislike of something to allow thier own rationlisations to justify influencing others without accepting noncompliance. It's a very slippery slope and human beings are imperfict. Thats why games have a master set of rules or a GOD person to help us be our better selves during game play.

For awhile she thought HOing was against the rules of this game and thought that was the source of my personal rants in the house. Becuase she didn't want me to have a seasure, she started reading threads on the AH BBS. She aquainted herself with the game well enough over the years to know HOing is not against the games rules of play. So last night I guess she got fed up and asked an obvious question that an outside observer might ask. After all we are very tranparent in our diaologs and personal efectations where this game is concerned.

She just wondered how parents who pay for thier children to play would react if they began actualy reading the BBS threads as much as she did and as outside observers draw some of the same conclusions.

It's human nature for humans to try and influence thier environment to reflect thier own desires regardless of others. Rules or laws are the response to this tendancy. I agree getting sucker punched aint fun......

waystin2 · « **Reply #81 on:** January 16, 2008, 01:35:27 PM »

Can I tell if someone is going to light up on my front end on a nose to nose merge.? NO. Noone knows what is going on in someone else's head. So I assume at all times that the enemy's guns will light up inside that 1k radius at any given moment, and plan accordingly. I could give a care if you are ranked #1 or # 5000, all of us do it at one time or another depending on the circumstances.

PS-It is bad form Toonces to be naming names in your original post.

Oink

dedalos · « **Reply #82 on:** January 16, 2008, 01:47:10 PM »

Bustr,

Just like in real life, there are laws and rules you have to follow, and then there are things you don't do because they are stupid or you make fun of because they are stupid.

For example, there is no law about eating with your feet sitting on the carpet and then buying a new carpet every day. However, it is stupid and you either don;t do it or someone is making fun of you for that.

There is no law (that I know of, lol) forbidding you from mowing your lawn dressed as a bride. But your neighbor will make fun of you.

You see? choosing to HO all the time falls in that category. It is that simple. No law against it, but you may hear a few things about it.

As far as your wife goes, I think you said you met her at work? Most companies have a rule against that so you better check! You might have broken some HR rules there

(I guess I have to say that that was meant as a joke, lol)

SlapShot · « **Reply #83 on:** January 16, 2008, 02:22:06 PM »

Toonces ...

I read your post, but don't want to quote the whole thing.

I have fought both of those guys many times in my F6F (very similar to your F4U) and I have never died to their guns via a HO.

First ... when approaching a Hurri IIC ... EXPECT them to go for the HO right from the start ... if you present the opportunity.

Now ... DO NOT .. I repeat DO NOT merge with them like you would merge in a DA fight.

When attacking a Hurri IIC, I want to be fast, and I want to come at him at an angle, with some distance, to prevent what you fell prey to. My attack angle will create some sort of counter-move and the chess match continues from there.

By coming in fast on a Hurri IIC, in a HellCat, I can immediately take the "high" road and hopefully control the fight from there and work him until I get the correct angle for a nice guns solution.

Let me ask you this ... are you trying to merge as one would merge in the DA ? ... wing to wing ... cockpit to cockpit ... close-in merge ? If so, STOP doing that.

bustr · « **Reply #84 on:** January 16, 2008, 02:24:11 PM »

dedalos,

None taken....

My addiction has taken some toll on the wife. She has been very understanding to the point of replacing my beer during combat so I have a freash one waiting. That and her efforts to understand this addiction is enough for me to pass on her observation to the community. thank god I met her however it happened.......

We are really too close to the show to have an objective and frank say in this. Her observation might have helped some of our readers to peak for just a second longer at their own motivations for saying HOing is evil and poor play to others. After all I don't think I'm the only player who has flown 2 sectors looking for a fight just to get sucker punched back to the tower. Now am I?

toonces3 · « **Reply #85 on:** January 16, 2008, 02:33:57 PM »

bustr,
Bud, I can't explain this anymore clearly. My intent was to start a discussion regarding making a maneuver in such a way that someone who is merging with me, and is on the fence about whether or not I'm going to HO them, will realize by my maneuver that I'm not going to do so. It is my hope that this person, seeing this, will choose not to HO in return so that we can merge and then fight.

Some folks will HO anyway. For them, what I do makes no difference.

Some folks won't HO unless they think they will be HO'd themselves. Will my move make a difference?

I'm not advocating one style of play over the other. That has been beat to death. I don't care how you play the game- I do wonder if how I play has any influence on how you play.

I would prefer not to get HO'd when I'm not going to HO myself, but that's just me. I don't get on 200 and whine about it too often though because HO's happen.

Wastin2,
It's only bad form if they did something wrong. Did they do something wrong? Did I say they did something wrong? All they did is waste 30 minutes of my playing time. They got their kills; I logged off feeling like I shoulda played another game or read a book or something instead.

Again, thanks for the inputs. I think the best move is to get with Ded or Ghastly or a trainer and learn HO avoidance maneuvers and just get on with my game. Clearly merging in a manner that isn't avoiding the HO altogether isn't the way to go. My question has been pretty much answered.

BiGBMAW · « **Reply #86 on:** January 16, 2008, 02:35:17 PM »

hehehe Hubs....

toonces3 · « **Reply #87 on:** January 16, 2008, 02:38:05 PM »

Slapshot,
Yes, I'm merging like in a DA scenario. I suppose I've been lulled into a false sense of security because I've had a lot of good flights in Mid War where HO's just didn't happen. Alot like the AvA used to be.

BaldEagl · « **Reply #88 on:** January 16, 2008, 02:39:55 PM »

Quote

Originally posted by hubsonfire
Honor? Are you serious?

Huh? Who? Me?

SlapShot · « **Reply #89 on:** January 16, 2008, 02:52:42 PM »

Quote

Originally posted by toonces3
Slapshot,
Yes, I'm merging like in a DA scenario. I suppose I've been lulled into a false sense of security because I've had a lot of good flights in Mid War where HO's just didn't happen. Alot like the AvA used to be.

Whoa ... let's not lay this on an "arena".

The type of MA arena has nothing to do with it.

There is a "DA merge" and then there is an "MA merge".

Any fight, outside of a fight in the DA arena, should not be approached with the same mindset as when in the DA ... if you do that, you are setting yourself up for an HO or snapshot merge and that is a problem on your end.

I have had countless good fights in the MW, and I have had many try to start and end the fight with an HO in the EW/MW/LW ... the HO artist will survive in and inhabit all MA arenas ... make no mistake about it.

In any arena that I fly ... if the opponent is NOT coming for an HO and is trying as hard as hell as I am to setup a lead turn ... then I know that I better strap in, cause the fur is gonna fly.