another campus shooting this week?

[Elfie]

I have to go for a few hours, so I won't be able to participate for awhile.

[trax1]

Originally posted by john9001
so you have gone from arming every student to not many would carry.

If not many would carry, why do you object to a few guns in the whole school?

you see, not everyone has to be armed, it just has to be known that some may be armed.

I've said that the thought that even a few armed students probably isn't going to stop someone who's intent on killing other students.  In his mind he's already come to the conclusion that he's gonna die, thats why they almost always kill themselves at the end.  Now if he's already come to the conclusion thats he's gonna die why would the thought of there might be someone with a CCW in the class stop him?  He might not get to kill himself, someone else would kill him, so why would that completely stop him from going through with his plan.

[trax1]

Originally posted by Elfie
Trax the lunatics don't always have a connection to the people at the school. Many times yes, but not always.

 

It's not about them being in the right place at the right time, that would most likely be rare. It's about the deterrent aspect. Let's go back to the Florida tourists. Initially the tourists in Florida had what was essentially a gun free zone tag on them, and the criminals knew it. Once that tag was removed, tourists were no longer targeted anymore than they had been before the CCW law was first put into place.

We will never stop all crime. Saudi Arabia has some of the toughest sentences for criminals and they have one of the lowest crime rates in the world, yet....crime still exists. What we want to do is deter as many criminals as possible and criminals themselves say the prospect of their victims being armed is a huge deterrent.

These people who do this aren't you average criminals, they aren't doing it for money, they are doing it for revenge, they have a totally different mind set, in the majority they are going into it for revenge and have already come to the conclusion that they are going to die, criminals who are going after tourist aren't going into the crime with the mind set they are going to die.

[Donzo]

Originally posted by trax1
The reason they don't do it at a gun range or military base is for one they have no connection to the people there, they don't have any reason to want revenge on those people, and for the fact that every single person is armed there, yes if thats your solution I'd agree it would work to arm every single person at a school.  As I've stated several times the reason in the majority of cases they goto the school to kill is because those are the people they see as the ones that have caused whatever problem they have in their life.

I also just don't think theres really enough students that have CCW's or would want to carry a gun into a classroom to actually be in a situation where they would be a help by being in the right place at the right time to help, in the big picture school shooting are rare when you take into account the number of schools there are.

Do you know why this nut job in IL did what he did?

Are you on the investigative team?

Here's a breakdown on some logic:
1. "Gun free zone"means that there is close to a 100% chance that no one will have a gun in this "zone".
2.  A normal "zone" (not a posted "gun free zone") means that there is anywhere between 0% and 100% chance that SOMEONE will have a gun.

Do you think that #2 might cause some would be fame seeker to hesitate?

It's not a matter of everyone having a gun or the ones with them being at the right place at the right time.  It's a matter of there being a chance that some will be armed and will stop them that may cause them to rethink their stupid plan.

[trax1]

Originally posted by Donzo
Do you know why this nut job in IL did what he did?

Are you on the investigative team?

Here's a breakdown on some logic:
1. "Gun free zone"means that there is close to a 100% chance that no one will have a gun in this "zone".
2.  A normal "zone" (not a posted "gun free zone") means that there is anywhere between 0% and 100% chance that SOMEONE will have a gun.

Do you think that #2 might cause some would be fame seeker to hesitate?

It's not a matter of everyone having a gun or the ones with them being at the right place at the right time.  It's a matter of there being a chance that some will be armed and will stop them that may cause them to rethink their stupid plan.

Why would the thought of someone other then himself killing him, almost all of these people going into it have come to the conclusion that they are going to die, so why would they think to themselves "well I might not get to shot myself, someone else might kill me, I better not go through with it", that just doesn't sound plausible.  

No I don't know why this guy did what he did, but as I've stated the majority of school shooters go to that school and are doing it to get revenge on the students or the school itself.

[trax1]

I just want to thank everyone who's participated in this debate, I've enjoyed it, and good points have been made on both sides of this argument, so thanks everyone.



Edit:also I hope theres no hard feeling Donzo, never meant to offend you in anyway, and I apologize if I had, sometimes in a debate things can get heated.

[hubsonfire]

Saying "I don't think it's a good idea for people to be armed" isn't making a point, it's expressing an opinion. There is a difference. There are no good points for making it illegal or even difficult for people to defend themselves in life-or-death situations.

[trax1]

Originally posted by hubsonfire
Saying "I don't think it's a good idea for people to be armed" isn't making a point, it's expressing an opinion. There is a difference. There are no good points for making it illegal or even difficult for people to defend themselves in life-or-death situations.

I never said that I was stating anything other then my opinion on the matter.

[moot]

Originally posted by trax1
As for what Lazs and other have said about having students armed in the classroom as being a deterrent to school shooters are going on the fact that you think enough students would want to carry a CCW into class, I think you'd be hard pressed to find a majority of student willing to carry a CCW into a classroom on the off chance that it would come in handy on that very rare chance that you'd be in the right place at the right time to do any good.

You don't need a majority, just one bullet in the right place at the right time.  The number of CCWs isn't proportional to the size of the crowd but to the number of gunmen.

[moot]

Originally posted by B@tfinkV
the first time we used our brains to destroy on a stronger, dumber human, was also the first public murder by an underdog on the physicaly superiour.

that madness and jealousy is the same as what urges a modern day 'underdog' to take a gun to a public place.

we evolved to kill each other, no other animal resorts to killing its own spieces as quickly.

Strawman.

[john9001]

Originally posted by B@tfinkV

 no other animal resorts to killing its own spieces as quickly.

you are wrong, with many species the male will kill the offspring of other males.

[Donzo]

Originally posted by john9001
you are wrong, with many species the male will kill the offspring of other males.

Enough with facts!

This is an emotionally driven opinion thread, facts are frowned upon.

[B@tfinkV]

they might do that becuase they are 'dumb beasts' it is not common behaviour unles the male of the murdered infants is neglegent of his duty or two slow to defeat an attack. he can always make more infants. and this type of attack is not common in many spieces at all. which other animal has marched in arms against another massed army of the same animal?

insects on the other hand. now those guys are mean. if they had half our size and strengh we would never have got past throwing rock before we were wiped out.

[moot]

Bat you're making anthropomorphisms everywhere..  Animals aren't "better" than humans.

[john9001]

Originally posted by B@tfinkV
which other animal has marched in arms against another massed army of the same animal?

 

one wolf pack fighting another wolf pack over hunting territory.