E vs C

[midnight Target]

Sure, we can model tolerant behavior.

Sure, we can use catch-phrases that accentuate differences.

Sure, we can celebrate uniqueness in culture and customs.

But we aren't doing anything specific there. Not that I have a problem with that, but it is not the same as replying to my comment "homosexual studies do not belong in school" with "we need to teach tolerance."

Sounds like you have the start of a good curriculum already. Model tolerant behavior, accentuate differences and celebrate uniqueness.....I would support that.

Toad:

Pointing out the inaccuracies of the "Giants" of the past is ridiculous.
The point is that each new stride was based on the ability of that man or woman to look past the accepted paradigms and say what if. We need to celebrate that ability to say "what if" and Creationism based on the Bible says just the opposite. It says you have to take this on faith no matter what. Shut down your brain and don't question this book.

[miko2d]

Originally posted by mrfish
ever seen a god....any god? why are the other 75 zillion religions wrong and your jew/christian thingy is right.
...

the closest anyone has ever come to seeing them is some mexicans finding the virgin mary in everything

 If they saw the virgin, that could not have been the right Mary or they were not christians.

 The word in Isaiah almah means "young woman" with no implication of virginity for which hebrew has different word bethulah .
 The translatior into greek used word parthenos which does usually mean "virgin" - kind like ambiguous "maiden" in English.

 Matthew quoted that mistranslated greek version when he said "... Behold, a virgin shall be with child,... "

 Modern versions of Bible correctly give "young woman" in Isaiah but they also correctly leave "virgin" in Matthew since they are translating from greek in which he wrote.

 miko

[Kieran]

You're pretty conflicted there, TG.

Toad is referring to the idea that knowing and understanding religion doesn't mean you necessarily believe in it. He is saying an understanding of religious doctrine doesn't equate to accepting it. He might even be saying an understanding of history requires to some extent the understanding of forces that shaped it. He is also stating many of our protagonists for advancement were knowledgeable of religion, and by all appearances it didn't cripple their ability to advance civilization.

What you are suggesting is it is an offense to be exposed to it, that it has no historical value, and that any reference to it in a curriculum is without cause.

[mrsid2]

We have mandatory religious lessons at school..

I never liked them because I've never been religious and the religions appear crazy to me. However now later on I've found the knowledge useful, I know something about most of the biggest religions out there.

Probably it would have been better if they only gave lessons without having exams and giving degrees from it. Tests are the limit for me where studying becomes work instead of fun.

[miko2d]

The best, most convincing argument against christian creationism I ever saw was one sentence by Darwin himself.

 It has nothing to do with mechanics of evolution etc. but rather the existance of life as a design of a christian Creator.

 Just curious, anyone else saw it?

 Here it is:
I cannot persuade myself that a beneficent and omnipotent God would have designedly created the Ichneumonidae [wasps] with the express intention of their [larva] feeding within the living bodies of Caterpillars, or that a cat should play with mice

 The wasp paralyses the caterpillars, but does not anesthetise them, so they feel every moment of their slowly (days) being eaten alive while unable to control a single muscle to do anything about it.
 If you can imagine a more terrible, cruel situation, you have a way more wild imagination then I do.

 It is just one of a multitude of such examples. That directly contradicts  the of infinite mercy attributed to the Creator by christians.

 miko

[Kieran]

I just don't see it that way, but the board doesn't need to see Mr.Fish and me go through this one again. Suffice to say that isn't to me an "all-compelling" argument against the concept of religion.

[mrsid2]

The point is that with religious issues, we should respect the view of the believers and the believers should also respect the view of ours. As long as we don't stuff eachothers with our ideology, everything is quite fine..

[midnight Target]

Originally posted by Kieran
You're pretty conflicted there, TG.

Toad is referring to the idea that knowing and understanding religion doesn't mean you necessarily believe in it. He is saying an understanding of religious doctrine doesn't equate to accepting it. He might even be saying an understanding of history requires to some extent the understanding of forces that shaped it. He is also stating many of our protagonists for advancement were knowledgeable of religion, and by all appearances it didn't cripple their ability to advance civilization.

What you are suggesting is it is an offense to be exposed to it, that it has no historical value, and that any reference to it in a curriculum is without cause.

You know what Kieran...I'm getting pretty sick of being called hypocritical and conflicted. Please try to stick to the issues.

I have no problem with Religion...I have a problem with teaching Biblical Creation as science.
As to our protaganists for advancement being hindered by religion, there are numerous examples.
1. Who burned the Library of Alexandria?
2. Ptolemy (the scientist not the Pharoh) made a model of the universe that was incredibly complex and wrong because he was working under the assumption that God could only make "perfect" shapes and the only "perfect" shapes (in his time) were circles. Not to mention the Earth had to be in the center.
3. Even until the late 19th century scientists were convinced there had to be some kind of "ether" that carried light through space. This is a direct offshoot of the planetary spheres and other hocum that religious scientists kept inventing to maintain the literal nature of their beliefs.

Yes even very religious men made great discoveries. You are right about it not crippling their abilities. You are wrong if you feel that it didn't hinder them at all.

[hblair]

Why is it that whenever religion, particularly Christianity is brought up on this board, and people comment on the subjects that get brought up in the threads, people get so pre-disposed on slamming the Christians?, that they prematurely ejaculate all over themselves getting all worked up over getting their insults out. Mrfish's reply is a prime example. Why the venom? All I did was ask a question or two, and offer up a possible answer. We can have discussions like this and learn things from each other, no reason for being a meanie.

[Kieran]

[mrsid2]

What was the point behind your question to me hblair btw?

[mrfish]

why the venom?

because religions f's up the whole world and shut peoples heads off and its irritating.

heres the patent response for that of course: religion doesnt make problems people do and when everyone accpets jesus everlovin grace everything will be ok....

right?

everytime i turn on the tv and see people holding hands and swaying and having a 'religiogasm' all i can think is what a bunch of weakminded losers.

it is a cheap drug for poor uneducated superstitious people and nothing more.

go anywhere in the world where people have nothing and are miserable and they will always turn to religion. they dont have a pot to piss in but they --->bought<--- a picture of the pope and hung it on the wall.

they got 11 kids running around because they are afraid to go to hell for using birth control but the pope sits back on a golden throne with a million servants.

its hipocritcal and useless. everytime you confront a christian they roll their eyes back in their head and start chanting the same old nonsense - big wafty sayings about god's grace.

it is a cheap escape for people who cant stomach the truth.

keep your fantasies i'd like a safe world some day - one without the murderous compulsions brought on by religion.

[mrfish]

Originally posted by hblair
Why is it that whenever religion, particularly Christianity is brought up on this board, and people comment on the subjects that get brought up in the threads, people get so pre-disposed on slamming the Christians?,  

because you people are always trying to force your bs on us! and now you are trying to indoctrinate kids in public schoools thats why.

[Fatty]

It's nothing against Christianity in particular HB, it's just the dominant religion here.  I assure you if they wanted to teach kids the proper method to kill chickens in order to see the future I'd be equally opposed

[Kieran]

Mr.Fish, I don't agree with your point of view in the least- no probs, don't have to. I will say you are completely wrong about public education teaching religion. Civil liberties unions live for that kind of thing. Sure, occasionally the word "religion" may be said; but as far as a state-sponsored indoctrination? Not in my country. What country do you live in?