Fuse delay for bombs

[Revvin]

Gatso posted some good links above I suggest perhaps you take a look. Would you be happy if HTC modelled only one type of cannon round?

[gatso]

We are talking about a 11 second time to arm delay, right? An 11 second detonation delay after an impact would not work for a general purpose frag or incendiary bomb

Yes detonation delay.. No arming delay...

Why not?

Uses are mentioned in posts in this thread, Bomb will 'arm' if dropped at 75ft level in AH but you'll end up dead from the blast when it detonates on hitting the ground. A detonation delay would give you time to clear before your bomb goes boom.

I'm sure no one wants to bring back carbombing. The 1000ft arming delay we have now stops this very well. I'd love to come screaming across a town/base and drop bombs at 75ft knowing I'm gonna hit stuff and not get blown up in the process. No more popping up to drop ord on NOE raids.

Lots of sources i've read in the last 2 days have said allied and axis both used timed detonators to great success. Not like we're asking for anything that wasn't used in RL.

Gatso

[-ammo-]

Originally posted by gatso


Yes detonation delay.. No arming delay...

Why not?

Uses are mentioned in posts in this thread, Bomb will 'arm' if dropped at 75ft level in AH but you'll end up dead from the blast when it detonates on hitting the ground. A detonation delay would give you time to clear before your bomb goes boom.
Gatso

Gatso--  Why not you ask? A detonation delay of 11 seconds would have your bomb no where near your intended target when the thing finally detonates. As an illistration, consider how far your AC would travel in 11 seconds even at a moderate speed. Also consider that the general purpose bombs modeled in AH would doubtfully hold together long enough to even detonate. The bomb would crush a nose fuze beyond its capability to function with 11 seconds of pushing through concrete, steel, dirt, etc.. A tail fuze would mabe survive the terminal impact, but then again, the bomb would not be near its target. I guess you think that a 500 lb bomb traveling 400 MPH will hit a hanger and stop? then 11 seconds later explode?

Originally posted by gatso


Lots of sources i've read in the last 2 days have said allied and axis both used timed detonators to great success. Not like we're asking for anything that wasn't used in RL.

Gatso

Yes, I agree with that, but would you please point me to the link that said the fuzes incorperated an 11 second detonation delay? Maybe it was specialty bomb that I am not aware of its use in WW2. I know a durandal has an extended detonation delay, but it certainly doesn't fall into the category of bombs that are modeled in AH

And please, no need to get hostile revvin.  I am not against having something like this in AH. I dont relish squishing anyones idea's. I just want to tell what I know.

The way to incorperate the desired effect in AH would be to model the different types of Bombs and fins in the game. A high drag bomb would give us just what you are suggesting, but from a realistic standpoint.

[gatso]

Ammo, most of you're questions would be answered of you re read the whole of this thread.

As to the 11 second de;ay thing, I'm tired, it's late, I'll do a proper search tomorow but for now:

Medium Capacity (MC) designs which had improved metal to explosive ratios and also proved more reliability and generally exploded on impact, unless fitted with delayed action fuses

From here

This is LW ans not 11 secs but is another source:

All detonators on the (89) B fuze circuit are instantaneous while the detonators on the (69) D fuze circuits have delays varying from 1 to 6 seconds

From here

Ah Ha! found one, interesting too, makes the point well:

We did a lot of low-level daylight bombing. We flew at just 50 feet instead of the normal 25,000 feet. We dropped four 500-pound bombs. You flew in to your target at 50 feet and as you approached it you went up to 1,200 feet. You then did a shallow dive onto the target and released your bombs. The bomb had an 11-second delay, so you shot up to avoid the bomb blast

From here

There's more out there, it's just hiding pretty well.  I'll post more if I find it tommorow

Gatso

[Revvin]

And please, no need to get hostile revvin. I am not against having something like this in AH.

That was not the intent of my post, sorry if you took it that way I was merely pointing to the links which described the different types used by the RAF.

I dont relish squishing anyones idea's. I just want to tell what I know

And I appreciate your input but some posted here with a combative attitude and for what? because I posted a suggestion to perhaps improve Aces High

The way to incorperate the desired effect in AH would be to model the different types of Bombs and fins in the game. A high drag bomb would give us just what you are suggesting, but from a realistic standpoint

I agree 100% as I said before if AH can model different cannon rounds why not bombs? I know where you are coming from with the high drag bombs but the 11 sec fuse is just as historical and used extensively by the RAF. The other guys have given some good input on the Axis bombs but in particular my interest is mainly RAF which is why I posted with this perspective.

[AKDejaVu]

Found an interesting link here.  The really interesting part:

The first RAF aircraft to fly over Germany during the Second World War was a Blenheim IV, serial number N6215, of No 139 Squadron, when, on 3 September 1939, Flying Officer A Macpherson carried out an armed reconnaissance over German warships in the Schillig Roads off Wilhelmshaven. The next day, five Blenheim IVs of No 110 Squadron and five of No 107 set out from Wattisham to attack German warships in the Heligoland Bight, led by Flight Lieutenant KC Doran of No 110. The aircraft each carried two 5001b semi armour-piercing bombs, and the two squadrons made their way out independently. Doran' s formation attacked the German pocket-battleship Sheer, lying off Wilhelmshaven, and scored three or four direct hits but, owing to the low level at which the attacks were carried out, the bombs failed to explode as their eleven-second delay fuses had insufficient time to work off their safety devices. The ship was out of action for no more than five weeks. The Blenheims of No 107 Squadron, as well as five others from No 139 Squadron, failed to achieve any damage. Five Wattisham-based Blenheims failed to return.

[gatso]

3 more:

Amiens Raid:

Eighteen Mosquito-VI fighter-bombers, six each from 487, 464 and 21 squadrons, all carrying two 500lb bombs with 11-second delay detonators, were to breach the 20ft-walls surrounding the prison and, three minutes later, smash the inner building

From here

There was moderate light flak and as they released their bomb load the Blenheim was seen to burst into a mass of flames and crash into the sea. The returning crews speculated on the cause of this crash and although flak was the most obvious cause it was thought that the intensity of the fire was not likely to have been the result of the light flak that was encountered. It was considered possible that the crash could have been caused by a faulty or incorrect pistol fuse on one of the bombs which had exploded immediately on release instead of with the normal 11 second delay required for low level operations of this type

From here

On the afternoon of 17 April, 1941 a dozen Lancasters took off for Augsburg. The first wave of six bombers, flying in two Vics of three, was from No. 44 Squadron, led by Squadron leader John Nettleton. Two miles (3 km) astern and about 3 miles (5 km) to starboard was the second wave, six Lancasters from No. 97 Squadron led by Squadron leader John Shewood. Each aircraft carried four 1,0001b (450 kg) bombs with 11 second delay action fuses.

From here

Gatso

[Revvin]

And in another documentary in the history channel a mosquito pilot described how the 11 sec fuse was employed against shipping. Flying at sea level the pilot would fly towards the ship and release close by the ship only pulling up to avoid the mast. The 11 sec fuse was used so that after hitting the side of the ship the bomb would sink below the waterline to create more damage and the greater chance of sinking the ship.

[gatso]

originally posted by AKDejaVu
owing to the low level at which the attacks were carried out, the bombs failed to explode as their eleven-second delay fuses had insufficient time to work off their safety devices

Deja, that sounds like an arming problem, ie, the bombs were dropped too low for the bomb to become armed at all, the fact it was carrying an 11 sec fuse is incidental.  

Still nice to see you found another link mentioning the fact they were used.  1st constructive thing you've done in this thread.. well done keep it up.

Gatso

[AKDejaVu]

You haven't shown that the "11 second fuze" did anything other than delay the arming of the bomb 11 seconds.

Not one mention of penetration... or anything of that sort.  Really... you have simply established that some bombs needed 11 seconds to arm.

AKDejaVu

[Karnak]

DejaVu,

No matter how much you protest it doesn't change the fact that RAF Mosquitoes used 11 sec. delay bombs to give them time to get away after dropping from rofftop altitudes.  There are numerous examples of this.  It worked.  No matter how much you intellectualize you're still getting it wrong.

[AKDejaVu]

Karnak,

I know delayed fuzes were used in WW2.  I will continue to maintain that they were not used in the capacity of NOE (below 100 feet) bombing.  I've only found 1 reference to someone that dropped one below 3000 feet.  The story said he dropped it at 10 feet.    Wait... one other was below 3000... he popped up to 1200 feet.

So we'd be adding this capability to AH in order to...  ?

AKDejaVu

[Revvin]

The example I used above was of a mosquito pilot attacking small ships, he was flying around 10 feet rising to 30 feet max. Other stories such as attacks on a Norweigan gestapo HQ were also done at roof top level (around 30 foot, maybe 40 foot) one was so low his plane was damaged by a chimney and also attacks on V1 sites at tree top level. It did happen and was a tactic used in WW2 particularly well by RAF Mosquito's.

[gatso]

Deja I think you're getting your terminology wrong. Time to 'arm' and a fuze/detonator delay are 2 seperate things.  Both were used but the NOE mossie raids used delayed fuses/detonators, not delayed arming.   A lot of the writing by people mixes these things up as well so it makes it difficult to sort out what exactly they are talking about.  I found the site that ammo posted a while a go helped enormously.

Ah, found that 10ft attack reference, it's from a newspaper article from the Amiens raid link I posted, Didn't anyone ever tell you to never trust anything you read in the paper

Smith led the first six aircraft from 487 squadron and, just after midday, attacked the surrounding walls from a height of 10ft

Amiens is a classic raid of this sort. There's lots more articles about it because it was considered to be so amazing that any of the prisoners escaped.  The most interesting thing in that article is:

A 19th Mosquito, from the film production unit, was to record the operation

The film is shown in just about every documentry ever made about the mossie, keep an eye out it is truly spectacular.  If i find any decent pics I'll post them.

Gatso

film I remember seeing may have been from either the Aarhus, Copenhagen or Amiens raids, they had PRU aircraft on each presumably for propaganda purposes.>

[gatso]

Amiens, The target: