How many here believe in evolution?

[Samm]

Originally posted by Hortlund
And were those ancestors to the giraffe? Not really huh?

 

Yes of course they were the ancestors of giraffes .

[Mathman]

Do you know what archeopteryx is Hortlund?

It is the link between birds and dinosaurs.  Does it prove anyhting?  No, it doesn't.  What is does, though, is provide some pretty credible evidence concerning evolution.

You were asking for an example of an inbetween species and I gave you one.

Now, concerning this "debate."  It is impossible to argue evolution vs. creation.  Why?  One is based on scientific theory (which I truly have become even more convinced that most people have no idea what true scientific theory is and how it works), while the other is based purely on faith and religion.  Are science and religion mutually exclusive?  Yes and no.  In some ways it is completely impossible to put one versus the other looking for a total truth.  It will never happen.

I am not going to argue one versus the other, particularly since I do not have the background that provides me with a good knowlege of creation and the bible.  I do know evolution from classes I took in college (I was a biology major).  Most people who claim to speak for or against evolution have no idea what evolution is, how it is explained, the different types of evolution, etc.  

This debate is old, tired, and "unwinnable" from either side.  There are better and more interesting arguments in evolutionary thought.  You should see the debates and arguments of punctuated equilibrium vs phyletic gradualism.  The old debate about dinosaurs being cold or warm-blooded (which in some places, still goes on).  If you want a good book to read about that, try "The Dinosaur Heresies."  I forget the name of the guy who wrote it (Its in a box at my parents house), but it very interesting and well written.

Sorry this post got a little long, I wasn't planning on it.  You can all continue with the debate, I have heard it before and much better a few years ago in college.

[Hortlund]

Originally posted by midnight Target

As to the evidence.. look around you!

If we were to postulate that life evolved, what would you expect to find? Maybe a general progression from lees complex to more complex animals and plants, with each filling an available niche in the biosphere? Well.. thats what you got!

[/b]
Actually it is the other way around. If everything comes from the same molecules, and then mutates and evolves with the same goals, and prerequesites for survival, we should have less different species than we have now.

Missing Link? You watch too many movies. Who says an intermediate step must exist anyway? Some scientists postulate that Evolution may occur in jumps. This is one of the "Theories of Evolution" often confused with the "Fact of Evolution".
 

How big are these jumps? And after one of these jumps how does the species continue to survive? Are you suggesting that mother cow suddenly gives birth to baby whale, and little baby whale happily crawls down into the ocean and swims along.

[Samm]

Originally posted by Hortlund


Now, how do you propose these valves evolved? Natural selection cannot help because the valves are useless until functional.

You mean vascular aortic valves ? We have them too, just not as robust as the girraffes for obvious reasons . You see girraffes that didn't have sufficient cardio vascular systems did not eat very well, as a result the did not breed well, as a result only the genes of giraffes with sufficient cardio vascular systems passed on their genetic material .

[Hortlund]

Originally posted by Samm
Yes of course they were the ancestors of giraffes .

You posted this:
Most untrue, there were many species of prehistoric quadraped herbivore mammals with neck legnths varying from shorter than a horses to longer than a giraffes.

If you insist on these species all being ancestors to the giraffes, then please educate me on why their necks first grew, and then  became smaller again?

[Hortlund]

Originally posted by Samm
You mean vascular aortic valves ? We have them too, just not as robust as the girraffes for obvious reasons . You see girraffes that didn't have sufficient cardio vascular systems did not eat very well, as a result the did not breed well, as a result only the genes of giraffes with sufficient cardio vascular systems passed on their genetic material .

I believe the question was "How did they evolve"? Here you cant use natural selection to help the process. And your home made theory that the Giraffes with insufficient cardio vascular system did not eat well doesnt really answer the question on how it came into existance in the first place.

[Samm]

Originally posted by Hortlund


How big are these jumps? And after one of these jumps how does the species continue to survive? Are you suggesting that mother cow suddenly gives birth to baby whale, and little baby whale happily crawls down into the ocean and swims along. [/B]

I think you may missunderstand the theory. There are no jumps, some specimens of homo sapiens are very different from the average homo sapiens sapien(modern man), while some specimens of homo sapiens would be very similar, and fewer still indestinguishable from homo sapiens sapien . Every living thing is a mutant, every linving creature has mutated characteristics, me, you, the fungus on our feet and in our digestive tract .

[Samm]

Originally posted by Hortlund
I believe the question was "How did they evolve"? Here you cant use natural selection to help the process. And your home made theory that the Giraffes with insufficient cardio vascular system did not eat well doesnt really answer the question on how it came into existance in the first place.

Are you purposely being this way ? The process of natural selection IS evolution . Animals with weak cardio vascular systems don't breed well, in fact they rarely reach sexual maturity, thus their genes are filtered from the pool . Pre girraffes with longer than average necks ate better and prospered . Stretch this proccess out for a few hundred million years and you get long necked animals feeding on tree tops .

All mammals have the same number of neck vertebre btw. Mouse, whale, monkey, girraffe, all have 7 neck vertebrea .

[Saurdaukar]

Would this be a good time to bring up skin pigment and eyelid thinkness?

[Samm]

Originally posted by Saurdaukar
Would this be a good time to bring up skin pigment and eyelid thinkness?

Don't forget facialmaxilla or cheeck vasculature

[gatso]

Maybe a good time to bring up a few other things too.

Like our own jawbones.

Compare it to a Homo Sapien that lived 5,000 years ago and you'll find our lower mandible getting gradually smaller over the course of those years because our food is easier to eat, requiring less chewing. One of the reasons modern man in the western world is having dental problems. Our teeth are evolving slower than our jaw bones.

Gatso

[Sandman]

Evolution is fact not theory.

There's a mountain of evidence in numerous scientific disciplines.

There are major lifeforms on this planet that were not represented in the past. Fact.

There were no mammals 250 million years ago. Fact.

There are major lifeforms of the past that are not represented today. Fact.

All living forms come from previous living forms. All present forms of live cme from ancestral forms that were different. Fact.

You might as well argue that the sun revolves around the earth if you're going to ague that evolution is not fact.

Now... you want to talk about natural selection... that's an entirely diffferent argument.

[Samm]

Originally posted by Sandman_SBM

You might as well argue that the sun revolves around the earth if you're going to ague that evolution is not fact.

They did that allready, remember Galileo was imprisoned .

[davidpt40]

Evolution is a theory.  You can't be a biologist without understanding and accepting evolution.  Creationism is NOT even a science.  Something has to be testable and experimentable in order to a science.  How do you test Creationism?

There have been many transitionary fossils found of 'ape men'.  Neanderthal, homo hablis, homo afarensis, homo erectus, australopithicus, and many many others.

It is an extremely extremely extremely rare occurance that a fossil be made in nature.  Only under certain conditions and situations will a fossil even begin to form.  Think about how many animals have lived on earth, and then think about how many fossils we have.

Scientists have actually gotten bacteria to evolve.  I don't know the details of the experiment, but over hundreds of generations, bacteria evolved new traits (characters).

[Sandman]

Originally posted by davidpt40
Evolution is a theory.  You can't be a biologist without understanding and accepting evolution.  Creationism is NOT even a science.  Something has to be testable and experimentable in order to a science.  How do you test Creationism?

There have been many transitionary fossils found of 'ape men'.  Neanderthal, homo hablis, homo afarensis, homo erectus, australopithicus, and many many others.

It is an extremely extremely extremely rare occurance that a fossil be made in nature.  Only under certain conditions and situations will a fossil even begin to form.  Think about how many animals have lived on earth, and then think about how many fossils we have.

Scientists have actually gotten bacteria to evolve.  I don't know the details of the experiment, but over hundreds of generations, bacteria evolved new traits (characters).

You're mixing up some things... Evolution is fact. How does evolution occur? The answer to this is theory.

Look at your own post... Scientists have observed the evolution of bacteria. This is a factual statement, not a theoretical one.