How many here believe in evolution?

[Hortlund]

Originally posted by Sandman_SBM
Granted, there are some holes in the evidence... land mammals to whales, reptiles to mammals... etc.

Still, the evidence supports the fact of evolution.

There are more than some holes in a great big line of evolutiuon. Science has been able to identify a myriad of different species through the fossile record, but it has been impossible to "connect the dots" if you know what I mean. That is why it is wrong to say that "there are some holes" it would be more correct to say that "there is a big hole, and that is our evidence."

[Hortlund]

Originally posted by Samm
As for "midstage" creatures, well that's almost every creature that has ever existed . Some living example off of the top of my head . A mammal that lays eggs, fish that are endothermic, fish with lungs, alligator has a four chambered heart . That lobe finned fish that I'm not going to attempt to spell . Oh and then there's all the species of early man .

Those are not mid-stage creatures. Those are separate species.

All you guys have is alot of theories.
Horse -> giraffe is a good example. Everyone knows the theory. Some ancient horse-type animal lived on the savannah and began to focus on eating tree leaves. Over millions of years its neck grew longer, and its body was more and more adopted to eating from the tall trees.

Well, thats the theory.
What have the scientists found so far?

Horses, and giraffes. Nothing more.

[Karnak]

Originally posted by Hortlund
There are more than some holes in a great big line of evolutiuon. Science has been able to identify a myriad of different species through the fossile record, but it has been impossible to "connect the dots" if you know what I mean. That is why it is wrong to say that "there are some holes" it would be more correct to say that "there is a big hole, and that is our evidence."

That means absolutely nothing.

The fact that we lack all the data is not in and of itself data that contravenes the Theory of Evolution.

To beat evolution you need to come up with data that breaks it, not come up with data that isn't present and unknown.

[Samm]

Originally posted by Hortlund
Umm..ever heard of "the missing link" MT?

(just for clarity, I am claiming that the fossil record does not include any "inbetween-stages" all we have found in the fossil record are different species. We have not found "the in-betweens")

Ever species of man is an "inbetween" species, so now you want to find species between the inbetween species ? And then will you want species identified between even those ? Every homo sapiens is genetically different, so if you wanted to divide it down minutely as you can, everyone of us is a different inbetween species. It just depends on nature and a bit of chance to determine which cellular configuration (species if you like) will outbreak and bloom and dominate an era . Without physical adversity from the natural world a species will remain unchanged like the shark, and possibly the shiny new homo sapiens .

[mrfish]

Originally posted by Hortlund
Since you have that attitude it seems pointless to try to argue with you. Thanks for shutting up.

that's a nice parting shot tough guy but you were just as cowardly as the others when i asked if you believe in the creation story as written. since you are suddenly stricken with bravado maybe you can step up and answer my question:

did god make man from a handful of clay and then make woman from that man's ribcage after putting him in a deep sleep? and then all human life proceeded from that initial pairing? is that the alternative you are arguing yes or no?

instead of a sniper attack after i bow out how about a straight answer

[Hortlund]

Originally posted by Karnak
That means absolutely nothing.

The fact that we lack all the data is not in and of itself data that contravenes the Theory of Evolution.

To beat evolution you need to come up with data that breaks it, not come up with data that isn't present and unknown.

No, it is the other way around. Evolution is a theory. It is up to the one presenting the theory to prove that it is correct.

But at least we agree that there are no evidence in the fossil record for the evolutionists. At least nothing found so far.

[Samm]

Originally posted by Hortlund
Those are not mid-stage creatures. Those are separate species.

All you guys have is alot of theories.
Horse -> giraffe is a good example. Everyone knows the theory. Some ancient horse-type animal lived on the savannah and began to focus on eating tree leaves. Over millions of years its neck grew longer, and its body was more and more adopted to eating from the tall trees.

Well, thats the theory.
What have the scientists found so far?

Horses, and giraffes. Nothing more.

Most untrue, there were many species of prehistoric quadraped herbivore mammals with neck legnths varying from shorter than a horses to longer than a giraffes .

[-dead-]

Evolution is a theory.

As soon as you call it a fact, you ignore the whole scientific process and you've started a new religion, with a new creation myth. Science must always be open to the possibility that any of its models of reality may be wrong. Nothing is a fact as far as proper science is concerned.

Only religions insist that their model of reality is "true" or "a fact" -and thereby affirming that they can't be wrong.

While we're on the subject - creationism can't be a scientific theory either - because it relies on a god creating everything. The existence of this god is eternally unprovable (and you get into trouble if you try) according to the xians - so the theory falls down flat, in scientific terms - "No really, man... this guy who we can't prove exists made it all" don't cut it in science. The big bang on the other hand is merely indeterminate: maybe one day someone will be able to go there and see it - or maybe we'll find out what happened before it.

[Hortlund]

Originally posted by Samm
Ever species of man is an "inbetween" species, so now you want to find species between the inbetween species ? And then will you want species identified between even those ? Every homo sapiens is genetically different, so if you wanted to divide it down minutely as you can, everyone of us is a different inbetween species. It just depends on nature and a bit of chance to determine which cellular configuration (species if you like) will outbreak and bloom and dominate an era . Without physical adversity from the natural world a species will remain unchanged like the shark, and possibly the shiny new homo sapiens .

I must admit that this is the first time I have ever heard the theory "Every species of man is an "inbetween" species". Well, I see that you want to have a discussion about the question what constitues a species?

Go right ahead if you want to and present some clever definition of what you feel should constitue a new species. Meanwhile Im gonna stick to the accepted definition.
"a set of animals or plants, members of which have similar characteristics to each other and which can breed with each other "

[cajun]

Besides how does the whole idea of evelution suppose to work I mean, since humans allways wanted tp fly why don't we just grow wings? Imagine that.. man aces high would be funny!
If a horse could grow a long neck why cant we!


What about the inteligence of humans?
Not only were we somehow the only species to "evolve" (according to evelution) into intelegent beings, but we did not start really learning untill the last 6000-8000 years? (beggining of time according to the bible) , so for a few billion years we were just dumb things growing limbs and stuff, and then again by coincidence we just happen to stop evolving and start becoming civilized when the Bible states we were created (and quit smart too, not dumb cavemen banging their heads on rocks to make caves )

Nearly everything we cosider facts are in fact more theory than fact in other words, it is not a fact unless you were there to see it and can proove it, and last time I checked noone on earth is over 120 years old muchless millions of years old.
500 years ago it was just as much a fact that the world is flat as it is a fact it is round today.

[Samm]

You're not making any sense, every species that ever existed exept the first and last are inbetween other species on the timeline . And every life form that has ever existed is a species .

Oh and I should add that it's not limited to only plants and animals as the definition you posted states .

[midnight Target]

I think that Hortlund is just trying to be clever...

I can't beleive an educated man could hold the beliefs he is spouting here.

As to the evidence.. look around you!

If we were to postulate that life evolved, what would you expect to find? Maybe a general progression from lees complex to more complex animals and plants, with each filling an available niche in the biosphere? Well.. thats what you got!

Missing Link? You watch too many movies. Who says an intermediate step must exist anyway? Some scientists postulate that Evolution may occur in jumps. This is one of the "Theories of Evolution" often confused with the "Fact of Evolution".

Here is a little help in learning about transitional fossils:

    There is a list of over 100 sequences of fossils in

Paleontologic evidence and organic evolution, Roger J. Cuffey. Originally published in the Journal of the American Scientific Affiliation 24(4). Reprinted in Science and Creationism

Here is a picture of just one. This is proof of change, and the transmutation of species to species over time. Now what?

[Hortlund]

Originally posted by Samm
Most untrue, there were many species of prehistoric quadraped herbivore mammals with neck legnths varying from shorter than a horses to longer than a giraffes .

And were those ancestors to the giraffe? Not really huh?

Here is the dilemma you face:

A full grown giraffe's heart weighs over 24 pounds and pumps 16 gallons a minute? Because the giraffe's heart is much larger than his head, a series of special one-way, back-flow preventer valves are needed in the neck to regulate the flow of blood to the head, especially when the giraffe is bending down to get that much needed drink of water. Without these valves, the immense blood pressure coupled with gravity would pretty much blow the head up every time the giraffe bend down. Elastic blood vessels in the giraffe's head allow harboring of enough blood to prevent the giraffe from passing out when bent in this position.

Now, how do you propose these valves evolved? Natural selection cannot help because the valves are useless until functional.

[Samm]

Originally posted by cajun

If a horse could grow a long neck why cant we!

Kill off all but the 25% longest necked people, let them breed for a few thousand years and come back and kill off 75% of the population who's necks are shorter than only 25% of the population . Let them breed for a few thousand years and do it again . Repeat this proces for a few million years and you'd end up with some long necked mofos .

That's artificial natural selection . It's why domestic strawberries are so much larger than wild ones. They've been geneticaly altered through artificial natural selection .

[Hortlund]

Originally posted by midnight Target

Here is a picture of just one. This is proof of change, and the transmutation of species to species over time. Now what?

Exactly what am I looking at here MT?