Capitalism is a pain in the arse

[GRUNHERZ]

Well Then I switch sides.   I pledge to be and continue to be an bellybutton just like the rest of you and do as I see fit and as it pleases me.  

But if you really wanna bring that up go read what I said about my o'club attitude in the two big threads. I basically see it as place to bash heads as opposed my attitude in the general AH community forums. But be careful and dont that let get in the way of what you want to see and believe Toad...

Anyhow back to communism...

Does anyone know of another political system that has caused so much death and misery and injustice in recent history?  The various facists, certainly another disasterous attempted 20th century political wonder idea, all put together and even including all casualties from WW2 from all sides arent even close in number of deaths.  Anyone?

[Ping]

Originally posted by GRUNHERZ
Snip
Does anyone know of another political system that has caused so much death and misery and injustice in recent history?  The various facists, certainly another disasterous attempted 20th century political wonder idea, all put together and even including all casualties from WW2 from all sides arent even close in number of deaths.  Anyone?

Snip

 The Monarchy?
 Englands World domination cost many wars and lives. That went on into the 20th century.

[Fatty]

Not in so short a time, give communism that much time and it would not even be comparable.

[Urchin]

I'm not so sure it is the political system itself that is to blame as much as it is the various despots that attempted to impose a misguided version of it onto on unwilling or unready population.  

Stalin, Pol Pot, Castro, Mao Zedong...  All of them attempted to impose their version of 'communism' on a society that wasn't even industrialized yet.  Plus all of them (with the possible exception of Castro) were bloodthirsty lunatics.  Or morons.. I think Mao was more of a moron than a bloodthirsty lunatic.  

It seemed rather obvious to Marx & company that a society couldn't be ready for 'communism' until it had already been through industrialized capitalism.  None of those countries had gotten there yet.  Stalin industrialized his country with the blood of many millions of Russians, and look at what a mess that turned out to be.  Pol Pot (and I don't know a whole helluva lot about Cambodia, so an expert can correct me if I'm wrong here) attempted to get RID off anything smacking of modernism and go back to a 'paradise' of agrarian culture.  Mao... for chrissakes, he tried to 'industrialize' his country by making every village a foundry... and that sure turned out well.  I really think Cuba could have turned out a lot better than it did had Castro and the U.S.A. not gotten into a 40 year pissing contest that is just now coming to an end.

Grun, I'm not sure if humans even CAN make a society where everyone is more or less equal, and nobody gets all the 'pie' to themselves.  I'm not sure if it is possible.  I don't think people have it in them.  I honestly believe that, when you get right down to it, the 'foundation' of a person is greed, dishonesty, and base stupidity.  However, I'm not sure yet if that is genetic or just learned.

[GRUNHERZ]

Communism is unworkable when real life people are in the equation. So you try to take them out of the calculation. Do you think it's a coincidence that all those guys ended up eliminating millions of their own people to enforce their regimes?

[Puudeli]

I agree with most of you guys.

And GRUNHERZ, would you please stop that whining?
Do some job so your dad dont have to pay all you want :/

I mean, try to read something that you say...

And yes we know that communism dosnt never work right.
But something between democracy and communism MIGHT work.

[Fatty]

That is what we have now Puudeli.

[Urchin]

I can point to plenty of other regimes that aren't communist that do a decent job on their own people too.  Iraq, Iran, quite a few countries in South and Central America.  

You know what ties those regimes and 'murdering commie bastard' regimes together?  A basic lack of human rights.  It isn't the fact that the regime is 'communist'.. it is the fact that the regime doesn't value human life the way our "Christian" Western culture does.  And I got news for ya bud... the corporations give two toejams about your life, or my life, or anyones elses life.  If they can make a buck by working someone to death (and they won't be held liable for it).. they'll do it.  

Why do you think companies move to Asia?  Its a lot easier to exploit people over there than it is here.  Of course, the solution is to make it easier to exploit American workers and all the companies will come back.  I think a nice package where the company pays no land tax for 1,200 years and gets the factory constructed and land paid for with public money (read: taxes) is fair right?  Especially considering all the EMPLOYEMENT it will bring to the area.  Hell, one factory can pay minimum wage to thousands of people.  Sounds life a good deal to me, how bout you?  Actually hell, I thought better of it.  Since we are trying to make it attractive for companies to move back to the U.S., lets abolish the minimum wage.  What do you think would happen to wages then, Grun?  You think the various corporations, out of the goodness of their little green hearts, would pay a wage a person could live off of?  I think not, but then, I'm a pessimist.

[Ping]

And many feel its not working Fatty. Too much Government involvement in too many areas.

 Canada is worse than the US by far. Too dang close to Communism as far as I'm concerned.

[Fatty]

Oh I'd agree there.  The concern I have is people thinking this is capitalism and picking something between this and pure socialism when we are a far, far cry from capitalism.

[blitz]

Originally posted by GRUNHERZ

Anyhow back to communism...

Does anyone know of another political system that has caused so much death and misery and injustice in recent history?  The various facists, certainly another disasterous attempted 20th century political wonder idea, all put together and even including all casualties from WW2 from all sides arent even close in number of deaths.  Anyone? [/B]

Me

Does it really matter which of these 2 economical system costs more lives?
Fact is they both are responsible fr million and million of death.

Ever heard of 'Krupp', 'Thyssen', 'IG Farben' ?
Very large and mighty companies in Deutschland which sponsored Adolf Hitler from the beginning. not the only ones naturely.
They knew what they did, they wanted the war because of the profit they could make.
There's nothin better than a war for companies producing arms.

Martin Marieta and the other companies gettin benefit from the next iraque war just now sittin in their big chairs laughin their arse off, while young americans and the iraque people have to pay the bill.

Best was Iran /Iraque war where weapons was sold to both.

Capitalism needs to be controlled by the goverment or it can get outa controll easily.

But controlling very large companies while we read every day about 'Global Players' in the papers?
These companies are not dump, they are mighty and have great influence in politics. They have their very own targets and noone will stop them. Global payers are the hare and democracy is the
hegehog runnin behind them tryin to catch up.

Regards Blitz


btw. Marieta was just an example, ask 2000 little american farmers goin bankruppt every year how well this system works.
Its all about monopoly in the long terms.

[GRUNHERZ]

Puudeli:

"But something between democracy and communism MIGHT work"

Yea just look at all those democratic communist regimes. So many people really want that.. You  cannnot have communism and democracy, because in a very short time people become tired of it - if they can vote then they vote it out.


Urchin:

Name one significant communist regime that did not have incredibly oppresive human rights record. There were plenty of communist regimes so there are surely some you can find.

You simply dont get it do you? The nature of communism is against the human spirit.  It wasnt a coincidence it was a disaster everywhere it went.

Oh yes the evil corporations, they are simply ruining everything. It would be so much better if they were all gone and free enterprise was gone and everything was gun by an enlightened central comitee with the peoples best intersets in mind. Oh yes that would be soo good.

But since I think you will object to my characterization of you here Urchin, why not enlighten us all and suggest an alternative to free enterprise and an individuals or a group of individuals right to own and operate  a business - which is all your evil corporations are.

[Toad]

So the O'Club is your "special place" where you can do all the things you blasted other folks for doing? Because in your opinion it's OK to be an a** about some topics but not others?

[blitz]

Originally posted by Ike 2K#
is there a way to mix democracy with socialism?

That's what we had in various variants in the last 50 years in the west.

In Germany it was called 'Soziale Martwirtschaft' which means economics was based on capitalism but goverment tries to controll it a bit and helps poor/weak people.

System was abused by a lot of lazybones 'Faule Säcke  ', but worked pretty well for the last 30 years in germany.

With communism quits and 'Globalisierung' of economics this is history.

See what's next.



Mr. Bush holds a speech in the street.
Talkin about his government brought 1 million new jobs.

One of his listeners in the crowd to his friend: "Hey, that's right, get four of them already " ;D


Regards Blitz

ps Talkin about WEST germany here

[GRUNHERZ]

Basically I see o'club as a place where anything goes and is unregulated and a free for all. I like to go after the communists in here and the osama bin laden loving USA haters. Other people like to bash corpoartions and managers and gun owners and whatever..

I think it's important we should be civil in the other forums though because they are about the game and the game community specifically and HTC seems concerned with the negative conduct there as well. I want the attitude there to be netter and am willing to work to that end in the future.

You on the other hand seem to focus on the past and are apparently preparing for more negativity and insults to come.