To The Rumble Fw 190A-5 pilots

[Citabria]

"youth and skill are no match for old age and trickery"

hehe
its clear the letter of the law and not the spirit was followed.

its obvious the intent of the ROE was for a clean merge with all aircraft merging at the same time.

the p51s were prepared for this and indeed expecting this much in the manner of a classic 1v1 duel with 10 planes merging together guns cold then getting the fight on.
the  mustangs became aware of a side imbalance and were told there were 10 LW so 2 P-51s landed to even the numbers.

meanwhile the LW was planning an ambush with 2 separate flights flying out of icon range. the LW was aware of their 11th member but chose to keep him instead of ejecting him so that they could "even the numbers"


live and learn  

[RAM]

...

nah, why keep on fighting for the impossible.

I give up,Hangtime. I dont know if you dont read my posts or you simply ignore them...

What I know is that I feel insulted. And pissed. ANd annoyed...

But avobe all...dissapointed with your reaction.

Oh well I've always have respected you. And admired you. When happened something that was able to break the mutual respect I thought we had I took good care to put it straight ASAP...

now I simply dont know what to think. Your reaction is stronger than any one I've ever had. And while I'm a 22 year old hot blooded child you are a mature man. ANd never in your posts saw something like this from you. I've always thought that you were a sport and took AH like it is: A game.

NEver expected something remotely near this from you. And now I feel dissapointed.

nothing that anyone cares about it, of course, but I still do feel this way.

 

[This message has been edited by RAM (edited 07-23-2000).]

[Hangtime]

RAM I'm sorry.. but you were lead down a garden path. I have no beef with the LW pilots. They did their job damn well.

My beef is with the Ref's that took it upon themselves to re-write a locked ROE; and with your lead pilot that knew damn well what he was about.. and that he set out to pork the ROE with a two section merge. Then when udie pointed the extra man out and hristo was SHOWN that he had a stacked deck Hristo decided to continue. He was responsible to bring a cadre of pilots into the fight within the terms of the ROE. He made sure that did not happen. That responsibility is HIS not yours. Not your plan. His.

Toes are gettin crunched; and I'm sorry.. but that's life. I'll get over it. But I'll not have hristo braggin on a victory he stole by deciet without gettin the truth in..

 

Hang

[Citabria]

ram we have somthing to settle btw since I'm a total coward and all.

look forward to dueling you 1v1 at your covenience  

[minus]

cool one kieren i like u :-) i got angry only short instant    
anyway the score landing and rumble is it not the Quality of pilot !  so Hang keep UP u are 1 of best pony drivers and when suckers like my sometime shot u down ( before i die 20 time ! :-))) )  u still know u are the Big pony drivers :-)) about FW driving is it a lusk and Hot head ! is it imposible to fly like a pony and all what i can sat about super howg drivers , i dont like u all , becose the quality is not u but your plane and the damned cannons    

[RAM]

 

Originally posted by Citabria:
ram we have somthing to settle btw since I'm a total coward and all.

look forward to dueling you 1v1 at your covenience  

We have a nice and bright ladder for such things. I am currently challenged but dont worry as soon as I fight my next duel we'll set the 1on1.

BTW what has cowardice to do with pilot skills?

and about cowardice... must I remember you that "memorable" ack hugin you did over A1 only to find me right into your 6?.

Oh, dont worry I dont pretend to be better pilot than you are. Still I'll fight you.And who knows maybe there is a surprise.

Of course I expect you not to run...nor ack hug...
-----------------------

Hang, you still dont get my point, and sorry I am too tired and sad now to keep on discussing it. Maybe when some time passes and hot blood is pumped away.

[Citabria]

ah memories  
lol

[Nash]

While my better judgement tells me to pull out of this thread, I guess I owe to whomever, due to the ammount of time everyone expended, to answer to the finger pointing.

For one... 10 v 10 was the *final* agreement made between Hang and Hristo prior to the launch. More than that launched... on both sides. The communication (amongst the refs)re 11 planes per side happened before the 2 51 pilots landed. We settled it, and were comfortable that both sides had equal (if not more than claimed nor agreed to) pilots. Hang, it makes little difference to me that you made some kinda arrangement amongst yer group that 2 of ya would land after discovering your error. I had no idea what ya were up to, and as far as I'm concerned, you broke the ROE by upping with more than the agreed to number of pilots. The launch was an official 'state'. After launching, the fields were switched off to prevent re-ups. Both sides agreed to 10v10 prior to the merge... and if y'all couldn't keep yer side together on that, ya may wanna rethink how ya go about pulling yer men together. I aint gonna take any blame on that, and further, this had so little to do with the outcome as to be well... moot. Just tossed out there at this point to thinken the mud.

Re the merge.

Picture this... I'm reffin' in your plane Hang, and Mathman is reffin' in Hristos. I'm sitting in yer plane after the "ROLL" has been called. A bunch of you 51's launch... but you and about 1/2 the flight are still waiting on the runway... and waiting... and waiting.

Meanwhile... I'm talking to Mathman, getting a feel for whats going down on his end. He tells me that the 190's are split up into 2 groups.

Then the rest of the 51's launch... So ok. Maybe now I can get a picture of whats going on. But no... after a coupla minutes ya rev and crash into the field that ya up from. At this point, Mathman is saying that a merge is about to happen, what should he do? Well... *I* sure as hell can't call "fights on"... I'm in the damn tower. I ask if I can observe from any of the 51s that are airborne if I can now observe from their plane. No answer. So it's up to Mathman. He says the two sides are about to smack into eachother. I tell him that if the altitude/cold pass restrictions are met, to call the fight on. Which he did.

So that's what happened from my end.

Now I got a coupla questions for you.

1) Just why.... *why* would ya designate two bases to up from when ya wanted both sides to bump into eachother at the same time? I simply cannot understand this. My thinking, when I saw the ROE, was "ahh... interesting... there's is gonna be some strategy involved here". Guess not. I'm just baffled by this.

2) Hristo's flight stagered... YOUR flight stagered... Why? And now - *how the hell do you see a merge being played out with 4 seperate flights entering at 4 seperate times?!* Really Hang - I wanna hear it.. Tell me like "Well, when the 1st two groups met, I expected them to hold fire and sort of circle around waiting..." etc. "Then, when the 3rd group entered the dance - we'd all just kinda, ya know, hover around waiting for the last flight to come diving in - THEN the fights on".

I made a call when it was relayed to me that this was happening. In my mind, we had 4 seperate flights... 2 in front, 2 in rear. When the 1st two came at eachother, that was it.. Fights on. I told Mathman to call it like that. I didn't really *expect* it, but there it was. I stand by my decision.

And if I'm in error, if Hristo is in error, if Mathman is in error or Citabria or RAM or Kieren or Jigster... and on...if you acknowledge that perhaps even YOU had some part of what turned out to be a mess... Why can't you be a bigger man about it? Ok - so maybe it WAS a huge gawdamn mess... Ok? Or a complete lack of competence... Face it - yer surrounded by morons Hang... I really don't know what to say at this point.

I certainly respect your enthusiasm Hang, but I'm dissapointed on your handling of this. I would think that you could find your way to *some* kind of perspective on it that would make people feel just a bit better about giving up their time to participate
in these things.

[Toad]

OK, I gotta jump in here to clarify one  little bitty thing <but you guys will probably just argue over this as well   >

(I didn't participate because my ISP has had the runs this week; it's dumping me pretty regular. And my computer has been locking up about 30 minutes into every AH session; I think I need new keyboard.)

But, I hung around and asked Kieren if I could help and he sent me to the A3 tower to watch the LW takeoff, monitoring for on time and a numbers count.

They all took off from 3, and NO ONE rolled before the word was given to take off. I counted 11 FW's and I counted them 2x before I reported. I reported 11 LW up/on time to Kieren and I also reported it ON THE COMMON ARENA CHANNEL.

If anyone was filming from T/O roll on, it should be on that. I know Kieren saw it cause he rogered me.

Minor point..but the call was made. You can argue more about it now.  

Secondly, I see no need for all the "heat" in here. No ACM fight, repeat, NO ACM FIGHT ever goes quite as planned, ROE not withstanding, EVEN IN RL WITH RL AIRPLANES.

Maybe the numbers got mixed up, maybe the ROE went to pot, maybe some guys were a bit too high or some broke high a bit early. Hey, S*it happens.  

Chill.  This was the 1st one...it was BOUND to be a Texas Goatrope!  

This could be a really fun event. Obviously some things need to be worked on to make it go a bit smoother. This is how we learn, guys. This is how we think of ways to improve the "Rumble."

If everyone just gets mad and picks up their marbles and goes home, the "Rumble party" is over.

So let's just agree this was a bit of a goatrope on both sides, try to improve the operation and give it another shot. Yeah, looks like the LW won this won but obviously there were some factors that tarnish the trophy a little. We can do this better if we try.

After all, they play the Super Bowl every year...so "world champs" isn't a "forever" title.  

Here's a suggestion for a different ROE. Might not work, but it's something to kick around.

1. Allies are Bish, LW are Rook but fight takes place in a Knight sector that has some factory or field or something to provide a little incentive to watch out when you go low.  Could be some ticked off groundpounders looking for payback against BOTH sides. A bit of spice.

2. Opponents approach from opposite sides of the sector and rendezvous on a "referee" B-26 bomber holding on outside edge of sector, flying parallel to sector line. Referee in buff will count fighters and confirm alt below xxK as they maintain formation at max speed of b-26 ~200mph.

3. When both refs are happy with #'s, alt and position, one calls "fight is on". Both opponents immediately turn into square. They are approximately a 1/2 sector apart, at about 200 mph. Tactics are open now.

4. Winner is "last man standing". Anyone that leaves the sector is instantly DEAD, out of the fight. (This should force the fight away from the edges and help the two sides meet in the middle.) Dumps, Discos, Mud Dives, Collisions, Knight Ack kills are all tough peanuts. Dead is Dead. Last one flying wins.

Please don't let this degenerate into a mud-slinging match. There were problems with this first run. That's normal..it's a first time F*** UP; very common in military affairs! So....work on it. It's a good, fun idea.

Peace, my fellow virtual airmen!

[Nash]

Well said Toad. <S>

[Hangtime]

What?? Nash.. yer kiddin right??

Two bases because the system resets with less. Sheesh. It was our intent from jump street to hold the fight over our territory. Yes. Fuel strategey was involved.

As far as I can tell via hristo's film the ponys merged as one group. I see screenshots there where the entire allied group is visible.. not so with the LW group. Definitly; they planned for and executed a ROE busting 2 element merge. We most definitly did not. This horse is flogged to death.

And I'm surrounded by incompetence? Not so. those pony pilots walked into a trap.. and the refs HELPED EM SPRING IT. If there's anybody incompetent here; it's me. No one else. Those allied pilots did as I asked 'em to; every damn one of 'em. Far as I'm concerened; I let 'em down. I shoulda PLANNED for a screwed pooch and acted accordingly. Incompetent fool that I was; I believed the ROE would be implemented. I've already apologised to them Nash.. have you?

I'm parked on the side of the runway; callin off the planes t6o roll one at a time. You didn't see that?? You have any problem countin them as they went by?? At what point in time was I advised they had 11 and we had one to many? Nope.. I wasn't and Toads message did not come over in the clear. I did see a liftoff time.. but thats all.

Then I get up; and request final numbers.. since the final count from the LW never came over in the clear. The answer was?? And I did what?

Jaaaasuss.. the fight was porked.. but not by the allies.

Also feature me sittin inna cockpit; dealing with 5 guys hammering me on private for 'can I join; what do you want me to do??'; plus 11 more in flight gettin settled down. and the I hear 'observers' flying into the area.. I'm busy parsing out the wingies and briefing on RW and getting the section upped per our plan.

My job was NOT to hold yer hand Nash, it was to get my group formed ; at alt and verify numbers.. yers was to enforce ROE. The published ROE.

We brought the correct numbers to the fight; based on what you told me. They did not. We merged as a group; per the ROE; they did not.

And yer hoppin on my case.. I mismanaged this? I didn't do the job?? Yer right. I didn't. I screwed the pooch; and blew the ROE call. I also decided to cheat; what the hell; whats one more LW pilot anyway. And I also decided to hell with the ROE; lets toss in a free 4 plane element that won't have to merge with the main group.

Dammo.. I've takin far more flak on this than is justified. I should just punch out my signature smile and say; "Oh well; Hristo screwed us; the Ref's with good intentions but the wrong idea screwed the ROE cause it 'seemed like the thing ta do at the time'; but hey; no harm done; lets go play barbies in the sandbox tomorrow."

Ok; yer right. Ok; here goes:

Gee; I'm sorry guys.. you can come play again; but don't expect a fair fight from the opposition or a fair shake from the umps.. they got a diffrent rulebook; and it ain't the one we're playin by. When we lose; be sure to tell 'em all how much fun it was; and how we don't mind havin the ROE summarily tossed in the toejamter. After all; we're all great losers. Right?

Right????????

Happy?

Hang; out.

[This message has been edited by Hangtime (edited 07-23-2000).]

[RAM]

I officially decline participation in any event that brings exclusive axis vs Allied fights.

If I am part of an event it is to have fun not to see all I've seen tonight.

So dont count me in any possible rematch of this thing, or in anything that raises egos this way.

I am damned regretful I took part on this one, seeing all this. I thought we were there to fly,fight and have fun.

NOw I realize that the core of this thing was egos vs egos. And I hate such things.

I had the feeling that I really should stay clear of this one. Damned instinct rarely fails me. Maybe next time I let it say "no way". ANd I am sure that many many of the pilots involved today, both in LW and US side share my opinion.

Still I feel sorry fer Nath, Mathman and Kieren. Hard work done to see this kind of thanks...

Really discouraging...  

(Edit...make that Nath-Nash. DAMNITTTT  )

[This message has been edited by RAM (edited 07-23-2000).]

[Nash]

Not "Nath" dammit Ram! Nash.. NASH hehe  

[RAM]

Oh well...whatever  

4.36am here in spain right now...waiting for a download to end, so now I have a REASON  

Sorry NASH!  

(or was it nath?  )...

ok lets make it Na*h  

[Nash]

"Happy?" - Hangtime

Uh yah... ok..  I'm happy. Just elated. Beside myself. Thanks.

Cheers.




[This message has been edited by Nash (edited 07-23-2000).]