Author Topic: school vouchers (Read 4169 times)

Fatty · « **Reply #150 on:** September 09, 2003, 08:29:53 PM »

An absolute refusal to discuss any change to the status quo makes it quite difficult.

capt. apathy · « **Reply #151 on:** September 09, 2003, 08:33:19 PM »

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does it not strike you as odd that all the teachers, or people with teaching experience, are basically telling you the same thing?

ummm, no not really.

let's see, I make my living teaching your kid. you want people to have the financial freedom to take their kid and the money you pay me to teach him to someone you feel can do a better job, because you don't think I can get the job done. Well it is my experienced and proffesional opinion that I'm against it and I think it's a really bad thing.

nope, doesn't suprise me at all.

Kieran · « **Reply #152 on:** September 09, 2003, 09:30:11 PM »

Here it is, Fatty... I am ready to discuss the possibilities both ways. I am not and have not argued for a second private schools do a better job than public. I've even offered reasons why public schools are in trouble. I personally feel you guys are so convinced vouchers are the way to go you don't consider the possibility they'll fail, or what the consequences will be if they do. That is close-minded. I cannot fathom how 100% of practicing teacher opinion is so totally rejected out of hand.

I think as parents you should do whatever you believe is in the best interest of your child(ren). If you think private schools are it, go. I hope you get your vouchers, I do, but I am going to be ready with a great big fat "I told you so" when, surprise, surprise, mandates start getting slapped down on those schools and turn them into public schools all over again. I'm not against change, you see, but I don't see the point of changing to something that only treats the symptoms.

I've offered my suggestion- parent advocates have been successful for focus groups, parents of regular ed need to get active. They haven't thus far and have been steamrolled. Go ahead, quit the system, but it isn't going to change.

"Meet the new boss.
It's the same as the old boss."

Kieran · « **Reply #153 on:** September 09, 2003, 09:31:22 PM »

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Originally posted by capt. apathy
ummm, no not really.

let's see, I make my living teaching your kid. you want people to have the financial freedom to take their kid and the money you pay me to teach him to someone you feel can do a better job, because you don't think I can get the job done. Well it is my experienced and proffesional opinion that I'm against it and I think it's a really bad thing.

nope, doesn't suprise me at all.

Thanks, I was afraid someone wouldn't accuse me of selfishly looking out for my own self interests.

wrag · « **Reply #154 on:** September 09, 2003, 09:51:09 PM »

Well hmmmmm

OK this is the kinda stuff that is being said about our current education system.

http://www.sierratimes.com/03/09/09/blumenfeld.htm

I'm NOT saying it's right or wrong!

Just saying that this is allot of the kind of stuff that is being said. And it's being said by many kinds and types of people. Be they Muslim, Christian, secular, whatever! Many people object to different portions of the public education system.

So is someone gonna say ya can't please everyone? My impression here is that a VERY few, if any, are being pleased by our current education system!

Fatty · « **Reply #155 on:** September 09, 2003, 10:04:59 PM »

I stand corrected, mild variations on the status quo. The system is going to change, especially as the pilot programs continue to meet with success.

The NEA can be the major focus in what those changes are or it can act like a bloated union, fight change every step of the way, and be left out of the decision completely.

capt. apathy · « **Reply #156 on:** September 09, 2003, 10:22:53 PM »

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Thanks, I was afraid someone wouldn't accuse me of selfishly looking out for my own self interests.

not trying to acuse you of being selfish, just pointing out that while your position has some insights others don't, it also comes with bias, in the form of financial incentive for this working out a certain way.

there's nothing wrong with tryng to make a good living, or working to get as much bussiness as you can for your company (school system).

there's also nothing wrong with a customer shoping around for a better value.

between my 3 kids (34 school years worth), and my own (13 years), I have 47 school years experience with public schools and I also have some insights into the problem.

the thing is when you have a problem with the way things run in a school you generally get one of 2 options.

the "I'm the expert, you're the ignorant parent, you have no idea whats best for your kid, if you'd only listen to me" patronising crap.

or the same blank stare the lady at the phone company gives you because you both know you can't take your bussiness elsewhere

not gov't mandated things, like class sizes, or problem kids forced on you, but things that should be adressed like-

a school sale with your amount of sales going to your grade, can you say 'grade buying', the resolution to this was my son was given the points as if he sold the product, the program was not changed or cancelled for the next year.

or, zero tollorance programs so that my daughter who suffers from cronic indigestion problems can't keep a roll of tums in her purse in middle school or she will be expelled for drug possesion, however some advertisers where willing to donate money if the school would send home their sample packs, they sent these home with all of the kids from the middle school, and the elementary my other daughter attended. the packs included (among other things tylonol, alka-slser, excederin, nyquil gel-caps, and 5 or 6 other drugs. to my way of thinking(considering the zero tolorance policy) every teacher in the school was, by the schools own deffinition, suplying drugs to their students.

and in these and a dozen other issues, blank stares and condescending attitudes.

so I see nothing wrong with it and am not afraid to admit, I am sefishly looking out for my own best interest and the best interest of my children. we need another choice

Kieran · « **Reply #157 on:** September 10, 2003, 07:26:33 AM »

One last try and out...

If you guys can't realize the state of public schools is the result of a two-way street (that is, parents play a big role in the disastrous policies we now have) you cannot hope to have real change in a new setting. The problems will follow you.

Of course I recognize we do some really stupid things. I work in the schools, I see it. Every single workplace I have ever seen has had their share of stupid policies, too.

Wrag, if I could hand pick the best and brightest lawyers from any lawfirm I wished, I could make a lawfirm that would dominate courts. Easy as pie, so long as I can exclude deadweights who won't contribute. And, as I siphon off the talent, the lesser firms are going to look worse and worse by comparison.

I've apparently overstated my case, and I'll leave it at that.

lazs2 · « **Reply #158 on:** September 10, 2003, 08:50:32 AM »

kieran... no... it's you who refuse to get it... two way, four way ten way street... who frigging cares? public schools are broken and the teachers... their unions and the politicians have ZERO suggestions on how to fix em.... worse... they have nothing but suggestions on how to suck more money while doing less real teaching and... they do nthing but blame everyone else for them not doing their job. worse than that... they cry unfair when it is pointed out that EVERONE who tries including parents (home schooling) does a better job than they do..

I seriously doubt that you will have real parents out in the street protesting if public schools were simply abolished.

but kieran... you claim it all the parents fault... I believe you... we should be doing our best to get rid of public schools and get something better. if you have any suggestions to improving public schools then I have yet to hear it.

so... how would you improve the existing school system?

lazs

Kieran · « **Reply #159 on:** September 10, 2003, 09:11:56 AM »

I wouldn't lazs. Vouchers are absolutely the best way to go. I think we should go for it right away. It is going to fix everything, just you wait and see.

AKIron · « **Reply #160 on:** September 10, 2003, 09:24:14 AM »

Competition almost always leads to improvement. Vouchers will force public schools to compete with private. Win/win the way I see it.

Like it or not vouchers are coming. Playing the blame game won't change it.

Kieran · « **Reply #161 on:** September 10, 2003, 09:52:39 AM »

Absolutely right. Go Vouchers!

Gadfly · « **Reply #162 on:** September 10, 2003, 10:22:28 AM »

Read Thomas Sowell today:

Column

Rude · « **Reply #163 on:** September 10, 2003, 10:28:55 AM »

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Originally posted by Kieran
So you are going to make the school corporation, with even less dollars, bear the burden of transporting people further and further away. Hmmm....

...not to mention you will now increase the student/teacher ratio, which will without doubt negatively impact student performance. Hmmm...

Nope, I don't see any problems at all.

How do you explain private schools cost per student ratio being significantly less than that of public schools, yet the product they turn out is superior to that of public schools?

AKIron · « **Reply #164 on:** September 10, 2003, 10:38:32 AM »

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Originally posted by Gadfly
Read Thomas Sowell today:

Column

Good read, thanks.

"Trying to be imitation Democrats is a strategy that has completely failed the Republicans for decades now. The time is long overdue to put their own principles in a contract and begin the process of making a coherent appeal to black voters -- one that is believable, as well as one that offers some real hope of racial progress."