Author Topic: 30 on 5 -The Horde Mentality  (Read 11508 times)

Offline Steve

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30 on 5 -The Horde Mentality
« Reply #60 on: December 01, 2003, 12:18:52 PM »
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Tonight I saw, nearly all rooks hitting undefended bish bases, while nearly all knits were hitting undefended rook bases, and presumably the bish were hitting undefended knit bases.


It's completely accurate.  I was whining on CH1 about this last night.

Each country had a huge mass of fighter located in an undefended sector.  When that base was vulched/taken, they moved on to the next one.  All 3 sides were doing this.  I'm left utterly baffled that people could actually enjoy destroying static, dumb targets. I'm confounded; simply cannot begin to fathom how this could be fun.
When I enter the MA, I look for the biggest furball and roll.  If the furball is about even, I'll up a P40, F6F, even a P38 lately.  If I can find a fight where we are outnumbered, I'll roll the pony.
What do these "horde" people think?  Do they hit the MA and think, " Hmmm let me find  the biggest pile of friendlies, I hope there are no enemies in the air!  Hmmm where is the steamroll/vulch?"  ?
I just can't understand how one could enjoy this.
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Offline Toad

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« Reply #61 on: December 01, 2003, 12:28:11 PM »
I'm not sure you can lay it all on the players either.

After all the game is structured either deliberately or inadvertently to reward certain behaviors.

The fuel destruction/resupply situation is a good example. Ever since the resupply became inordinately more time consuming than destruction of the fuel, "fuel porking" has become an issue. When one guy can reduce a small field to 25% in two passes (and yes, there's film of this being accomplished in the MA at defended bases) but it then requires something like 7 goon sorties to just get it back to 50% SOMETHING is way out of balance.

This is not a "player problem", it's a programming problem. If they'd make resupply reasonable, it'd help alleviate the behavior problem.

In fact, since the only REAL key factor in base capture is TROOPS, programming could be altered to emphasize killing barracks and fuel could pretty much be made a non-factor.

After all, you REALLY want to hold your bases? Destroy the enemies ability to drop troops on your fields.

Damaging fuel merely lessens the enemies ability to fight back. Which is fine if you don't like fighting and want to roll unopposed over the opposition.

But if you're looking for a good fight, let 'em have fuel.

You want to hold your bases? Destroy their troop capability.

I'd like to see something tried out in the programming area that deals with this aspect. Give it a month or two and see if "gameplay" improves.
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Offline beet1e

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30 on 5 -The Horde Mentality
« Reply #62 on: December 01, 2003, 12:32:12 PM »
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Originally posted by Rude
Well....you admit you have not done the furballing, yet you seem to tell us all about how it is silly and the incorrect way to play....I have done your style of play for years and furballing, yet you seem to think you have a more balanced dictate for gameplay.

Bottomline, neither way is incorrect...both camps should play maps which allow both styles of gameplay so that everyone can have fun...not just you and your's Beet....kinda selfish of you if you disagree, don't you think?
Rude, you are wrong. I have done a crapload of furballing - in the furballer's favourite plane, the Spit V. That's how I started out - in WB in 1998. OK, different game, but a simulation of the same thing - WW2 combat. Just as you "did my style of play for years", I did yours. We have each made our respective decisions on which we each prefer.

Offline SlapShot

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« Reply #63 on: December 01, 2003, 12:46:15 PM »
Steve,

Both MiniD and Shane have hit upon, and what I have begun to notice also, is the influx of new players to the game.

Being a card carrying member of the "newbie club" two years ago, flying with the crowd is a natural thing ... safety in numbers.

Its the "lemming/gangbang/pork-n-auger" crowd that is teaching the new people that flying this way is ok and acceptable and that they should avoid all conflicts at any cost.

After all ... avoiding fights to blow up all the fuel along with any other staionary object and then auger into the ground is what this game is all about. Where have you been !?!?!?!
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Offline mold

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30 on 5 -The Horde Mentality
« Reply #64 on: December 01, 2003, 01:48:55 PM »
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Originally posted by SlapShot
Its the "lemming/gangbang/pork-n-auger" crowd that is teaching the new people that flying this way is ok and acceptable and that they should avoid all conflicts at any cost.


No, I think you give newbies less credit than is their due.  Any person of reasonable intelligence--whether newbie or not--can decline to join their gangbanging brethren.  And those who gangbang will do so whether it is "acceptable" or not.  The problem is that some folks enjoy tallying kills more than flying and fighting planes.  Hence Air Quake.

At least gangbangs I can see some plausibly rational explanation for.  In fact they sometimes arise from pure motives, like if several people want to help a struggling countryman and head in all at the same time.  What I don't understand though is pork/auger, or even worse spawn-vulch/auger.  WTF.  Is it for score or something??  Or just to see stuff blow up?  I don't know how the score or perk system works, but shouldn't there be an extreme score penalty for death?  Like almost no points issued if dead?  Maybe that would eliminate such nonsense, if the scoring system is indeed what causes these phenomena.

Offline Reschke

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30 on 5 -The Horde Mentality
« Reply #65 on: December 01, 2003, 02:03:59 PM »
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Originally posted by Steve
Each country had a huge mass of fighter located in an undefended sector.  When that base was vulched/taken, they moved on to the next one.  All 3 sides were doing this.  I'm left utterly baffled that people could actually enjoy destroying static, dumb targets. I'm confounded; simply cannot begin to fathom how this could be fun.
When I enter the MA, I look for the biggest furball and roll.  If the furball is about even, I'll up a P40, F6F, even a P38 lately.  If I can find a fight where we are outnumbered, I'll roll the pony.
What do these "horde" people think?  Do they hit the MA and think, " Hmmm let me find  the biggest pile of friendlies, I hope there are no enemies in the air!  Hmmm where is the steamroll/vulch?"  ?
I just can't understand how one could enjoy this.


This is exactly the same style/way of flying that was encouraged and supposedly enjoyed by many people in Fighter Ace 2 when I played that game. Only there you had 5 countries on a map sliced up like a pie. I had a blast playing as a GE (German country member) and shooting down all those guys playing for what we called the "Green Virus" (GB or Great Britain) and the "Red Horde" (SU or Soviet Union). But you still primarily had 90% of your players going after undefended or very low defender numbers versus large inbound forces.

I don't know the way to cure it but I really think that the three sided maps do nothing but help a horde/squadron/mass of pork&auger guys to go after that undefended area. If we can get the ear of HT I would say disable aircraft for one country and force everyone to play for one or the other and see how it works. For the people who would whine and complain about not flying Knight/Bish/Rook whatever...well set it up on a rotation where the country who was down last map was active after the reset and whoever won the map was the inactive country. Is it absolutely necessary to have three "countries" in the game? If not then why do we have it that way? If someone with better knowledge of the game and mapmaking can speak on this please do. Maybe if we had plane specific factories that would be destroyed we could influence gameplay there as well. Oh well this is all just speculation anyway.
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Offline mars01

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« Reply #66 on: December 01, 2003, 02:05:45 PM »
Hey Anton,

Do you have this problem on the Fester map?
« Last Edit: December 01, 2003, 02:08:50 PM by mars01 »

Offline Steve

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« Reply #67 on: December 01, 2003, 03:46:35 PM »
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Both MiniD and Shane have hit upon, and what I have begun to notice also, is the influx of new players to the game.


I think you are right... in others words miniD and Shane are  right that this could be part of the problem.

I was  a bit conflicted when I read this.  I felt a  bit guilty for not teaching more noobs. Conversely, I'm not certain I'm qualified to teach people.  I've dueled Shane and Wldthing in the DA several times, with the same result almost every time:  Steve shot down.(Thanks dudes, it's always a blast, even though I lose)
OTOH I understand that success in the MA has as much to do w/ SA and decision making(if I'm good at anything in the game, its' these two), than it does w/ ACM.  When a guy of the caliber of Wldthing, Shane, Todd, and their ilk tells me I'm good(ACM wise) maybe I'll teach some noobs.  :)

I've had noobs ride along w/  me and they all pretty much say the same thing: I have a knack for being in the right place at the right time, and I use E well... I don't think I've ever blown anyone away w/ any mind boggling ACM... lol
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Offline Rude

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« Reply #68 on: December 01, 2003, 04:35:36 PM »
Raise the price to 100.00/month....that will make folks fight.
« Last Edit: December 01, 2003, 04:39:54 PM by Rude »

Offline nopoop

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« Reply #69 on: December 01, 2003, 10:05:32 PM »
There IS A WHOLE LOT OF NEWGUYS.

The list tonight went on and on.

Thats GOOD.

Continue.
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It's ALL about the fight..

Offline anton

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« Reply #70 on: December 02, 2003, 10:33:41 AM »
Been busy for last few days, not much BBS time.  Any rate, at this time I havent noticed the horde mentality on Fester MA, I assume only because it's still relatively new map & people havent slipped into the comfy routine yet.

I want to point out that missions are not a horde IMO. But a mission that the other side fails to respond to, can QUICKLY turn into a horde. Once a mission turns into a horde its real hard to get help fighting those 30 guys cause no one wants to die.

I once entertained the concept of having 2 types of AH accounts, A base price for everyone, & make available a "premium arena" for those that felt all the "kids" were bringing gameplay down. That Idea was met with lotta bad responses from the General Public of AH. So I dropped it.  

I gotta get to work now, more later-

Anton

Offline beet1e

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Newbies Revenge, and lack of real incentives
« Reply #71 on: December 02, 2003, 12:45:49 PM »
The fact that this thread exists at all, has been read by so many and has elicited so many responses – many from seasoned flightsomdom vets – demonstrates that many experienced virtual pilots are thoroughly burned out by the state of AH-MA gameplay as it exists today. Some of us deplore the hordes; others detest all the suiciding; fuel porkers get little respect from anyone at all; some are ground down by the MA methodology of grabbing the best plane for the job, which is often the fastest/strongest/has most powerful guns/max. agility etc. How has all this come about? Maybe it’s about incentives.

I was putzing around all over the place on my debut in WB. Two guys came to my aid – one was called –farm-, and the other was a Swedish guy called –save- who I later met in person. The help I got from those and other guys could not have been better. Later as we moved away from laser gunnery, and had to get in closer than 300 yards to get kills, a trainer called ==sd== went out of his way to re-educate me. Subscription costs: The mere mortals paid $2/hour but the =trainers= got free flying. Thus, there was an incentive to improve one’s skills because then you could become a trainer and not have to pay! This would be beneficial on two counts: The trainer got free flying and newbies were able to learn ACM and other skills from those trainers. Some of those newbies would go on to become trainers themselves in the fullness of time, and train a new generation of newbies. A side benefit was that there were many more trainer applicants than available slots, so it was competitive, and standards were high. The training programme worked well. In the game, suiciding was discouraged. There were no points awarded for kills per hour, but triple points for landing kills and/or strat targets destroyed. But to have a chance of returning to base, you had to develop a good degree of skill. For their free flying privileges, the trainers were expected to put in some hours on a regular basis at the Training Arena, helping newbies. This helped to raise the standard of flying in the MA, and make the game more enjoyable for all.

Now compare that with Aces High. It’s only 50 cents a day so there is no real scope for offering financial incentives for people to become trainers. And because of that, there is no yardstick of skill to work towards. The Training Arena is a joke. A WB guy I know told me that he tried AH once – the TA – and all that happened was that one a-hole (who was not even a trainer himself) used my friend as his drone. After being shot up for the fourth or fifth time, my friend realised he was learning nothing and left, never to return. More bad publicity for AH at the boozer that night… What else? Look back to the reception I enjoyed at Brand-W. Guys going out of their way to be helpful. What happens in AH? All too often, a newbie pilot will be told to try Alt+F4. Oh-ho-ho-ho, chortle the seasoned vets when someone actually falls for it… but how do you think the newbie feels about that? I know how I’d feel. If those a-holes get their jollies from rubbing my nose in it, I know how I can fix them. I’ll pork their fuel!!  And who can blame them? They’ve probably had a piss-poor reception into the game, and no proper training. As a result, they have no skills, but can get back at the Alt+F4 advocates by porking their fuel, and by steamrollering their front line bases in a series of pork-n-auger missuns.  

AH in the MA has become a game for egocentrics; a “ME FIRST” game. Often no 6-calls. No cooperation, people on the same side working against each other. Sure, there’s no AH rule book, but that sort of behaviour is not the kind of thing that makes you want to come back. Why is it like that? Because there’s no incentive to work together, no incentive to develop new skills – why bother to learn about the 109F4 when there’s an LA7 available at every field? :rolleyes: Why bother to land kills? Why bother to learn ACM? – just pork the fuel at your opponents’ field to stop them from getting alt, then steamroller it. No incentive to do anything different. It doesn't matter if you get killed; your shiny new uberplane of choice is only a mouseclick away...

There needs to be a new system of incentives. The objectives in the game need to be rewarded differently. Right now, we see guys scoring lots of points for diving in on a field in his P51, making about 3-4 passes vulching/shooting anything that moves, and when his E runs out augering in a blaze of glory. Is this the kind of game any of us wants to see?

There are at least two other threads besides this one on Page 1 of General Discussion, in which the originators bemoan the state of AH gameplay. We’ve laughed at the newbies and told them to Alt+F4. They’ve been used as drones, and otherwise held to ridicule. And now there’s a price to be paid. That price is the current lamentable state of AH-MA gameplay.

Beet1e

PS – sorry about the wall-o-text :p

Offline Rude

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« Reply #72 on: December 02, 2003, 01:16:47 PM »
and this kind of thoughtless behavior is precisely why the AH player base has grown to 600 in the MA a night from 90.

Sorry Beetle....your post is entirely to wishy washy....it smells of Socialism and hand holding....I want to fly with guys who work hard to achieve their skills, not change their diapers and sing them to sleep at night....sheesh man!!!

I do agree with you that some here ridicule new players online and that is uncalled for....personally, I'de boot em out for a month for being a ****. As for the alt F4 thingie...it's tradition.

Stop bein a momma's boy Beet....face facts....the current gameplay problems are you're fault.

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Offline DipStick

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« Reply #73 on: December 02, 2003, 01:19:15 PM »
Think I'm gonna cry...  
« Last Edit: December 02, 2003, 01:42:34 PM by DipStick »

Offline sax

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« Reply #74 on: December 02, 2003, 01:43:43 PM »
Pickin on newbies ain't the problem in AH. Giving them rights --freedom of flight and all the other stuff is whats biting us in the butt.
I agree with helping out whoever asks--but the requests are far and few between.
And porking fuel isn't strat--its just some folks peeing in other folks corn flakes so they can read all about it on the BBS the next day.