HispanosVsMausers

[Vermillion]

My guess is that both the Hispano and the Mauser guns are using a mix of ammunition, in which case you will see the results we are getting.

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Vermillion
**MOL**, Men of Leisure
Carpe Jugulum
"Real Men fly Radials, Nancy Boys fly Spitfires"

[hblair]

I can see where RAM could be getting frustrated. I've been killed on a couple of occasions at over 1000 yards by hispano's on the F4U1C. Torque has gotten me a few times at ungodly distances, It wasn't net lag either, he told me later that I was 1000 yards on his FE, no I didn't record it, but it did happen.

I'm not complaining about the LW guns, they are plenty deadly enough for me, it's just that the hispano's are that much better. One ping and you're pretty much done.

I think I was in the arena the other when pyro said he needed to check the lethality. Could be mistaken, but I think that is what he was talking about.

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<===<The ASSASSINS>===>
   The_ASSASSINS@egroups.com    

[This message has been edited by hblair (edited 05-10-2000).]

[Pongo]

Yes Hblair that is what he was talking about.
It is a hard problem because the same algorithms seem to give such historicaly palatable results for all the other guns..
(even the 151 IMHO). They will lick it and when they do we can start to see some of the other more deadly cannons in the game. Right now I bet they dont introduce them.

[-lazs-]

guys... The HS rounds all have way more velocity/energy than any 151 round we are talking heavier rounds at higher speed say 2400 fpm vs 2900... Better balistic coeficient and time of flight for the HS and .50 AP rounds.  At long ranges this would have a significant advantage... Whether you could hit anything at 1000 yrds+ is another matter.  

I want to test in the arena with someone to find out the RELATIVE  leathiality of each gun and or gunset.   Anecdotal stories from the arena tell us less than nothing.   They merely cloud the issue.
lazs

[Pongo]

So you have said Lazs go for it.
You will find that the leathality advantage of the HS is not range dependent.The HS will be signifigantly more dangourous at any range but particularly at 500-1500 yards.
This is apperantly what you expect to find anyway.
Then you can pump your numbers into a calculator and find out that the kinetic energy values indicate that the HS should be (1.7?) times better then the 151. And look its nearly twice as good in my testing..so whats the problem.
The problem is that there is no historical precident that indicates the HS was better at Air to Air little own nearly twice as good. Then you can say...Well thats subjective..and then I say EXACTLY... Without the coresponding tests from WW2. All you will be doing is enlightening yourself to what those of us who have been flying the 1c the spit Ix and the german planes have learned since last September. The HS is in a class by itself in the game.

The 131 and the 50cal which probably hold a similar ballistic relationship as the HS and the 151 feel better in relation then the cannons do. The 131 is a bit more sluggish and cant tag planes at 800 nearly so well as the 50 but that "feels" right.

Thats what I think the relation between the 151 and the HS (and the higher velocity cannons from other counties) should be.
Have to lead a bit more, wont chew through a tank as well, but hits on Aircraft should be very similar in result.

[Vermillion]

 

Then you can pump your numbers into a calculator and find out that the kinetic energy values indicate that the HS should be (1.7?) times better then the 151. And look its nearly twice as good in my testing..so whats the problem.

Because Kinetic value is only part of the equation.

Then you have to consider the additional explosive content of the larger shell.

It should also be realized that typically the larger the shell, the higher proportion of explosive to total weight.

Additionally, the range factor comes into play that considers each shell types ballistic coefficent

Here's some data that might help you out.

1.)The US Army's 20mm High Explosive/Incindiary cannon shell used during WWII has the following characteristics.      

Total Projectile Mass =  1565 grains
Explosive Mass = 165 grains of TNT
% Mass of Explosive =  10.54 %

Source:  US Army's Small Arms Ammunition Pamphlet, 23-1 SSA.  August 1968. Picktany Arsenal. Or alternatively, US Army Ammunition Data Sheets, Small Caliber Ammuntion. TM 43-0001

2.)The US Army's 30mm High Explosive/Incindiary cannon shell used during WWII has the following characteristics.      

Total Projectile Mass =  2295 grains
Explosive Mass = 600 grains of TNT, plus 70 grains of RDX
% Mass of Explosive =  29.19 %

Source:  US Army's Small Arms Ammunition Pamphlet, 23-1 SSA.  August 1968. Picktany Arsenal. Or alternatively, US Army Ammunition Data Sheets, Small Caliber Ammuntion. TM 43-0001
 

(3.)  The explosive yield of TNT is reported as 1080 kCalories / kilogram of mass, or as 4.10 kJoules/ gram of mass.  

Source:   Explosives, 4th Edition.  By Rudolph Meyer.  ISBN:  1-56081-266-4

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Vermillion
**MOL**, Men of Leisure
Carpe Jugulum
"Real Men fly Radials, Nancy Boys fly Spitfires"

[This message has been edited by Vermillion (edited 05-10-2000).]

[-lazs-]

pongo... I don't get it.   Issue One: I have offered to test and will test with you personally.   You admit that you are guessing at what the guns in the game actually are capable of.   I am offering you (and me) a chance to see just how good or bad each gunset is leathiality wise.   At the end of the testing we will be able to whine with authority.

Issue two;  There is no historical data on how many hits it took to take down a test fighter with each type of munition.   There is loads of balistic and penetration data tho.     The 151 round is inferior to an HS round both balisticaly and penetration wise.  Time of flight and balistic coeficient make the 151 round inferior in deflection shooting also.  You contend that HS and other AP rounds are overkill but I contend that 151 HE rounds are underkill and ineffective against most armor.   As for the evolution of 20mm ammo, it all got faster as time went by.  The slowest 20mm were the 151's and nobody ever went back there.... Velocity has to be good for something?
lazs

[Pongo]

Sorry Lazs
cant expain myself any better.
No one is contesting the accurracy advantage of the HS cannon. It shoots flatter and the rounds hit sooner and that makes hits with it more likly. Has been that way since the spit showed up with it and is well understood by all the experianced players in the game. Test if you like to prove it to yourself.
The whole issue is the kiss of death effect when the HS hits. Its penetration should not aid it in the kill. There is not a plane in this game that has the armour to withstand even the slow poke 151 round.  So the HS advantage on the kill is its kinetic energy....But good cannon rounds use explosive energy to kill AC and the 151 has at least as much as that as the HS. So why the kiss of death advantage with the HS.
Test away.
But if it is not immediatly evident why to Pyro with the data from the game printed out in front of him(and collected by him) what do you hope to find?
I dont have the inclination to test it. My second sortie with the 1c told me everything I needed to know. I shot down a tight formation of 2 b26s with out a hit. then a b17 then a lone 109 then a lone b26...
So I have no nead to clerify or codify the capabilties of the cannon.
But I am not stoping you....go for it.

[lazs]

pongo I don't know how to make myself any clearer..... You admit that you have no real idea of how much more or less leathal the HS rounds are over the 151 rounds IN THE GAME.

I am merely suggesting/offering that you and I find out with a little mutual testing.   I am sorry but at this point anything you say about the relative leathiality of the two guns, IN THE GAME, is worthless conjecture no more valuable than mine or anyone elses anecdotal conjecture/opinion.

As for pyro... I believe that he can speak for himself.
lazs

[Vermillion]

 

The whole issue is the kiss of death effect when the HS hits. Its penetration should not aid it in the kill.

Sorry, but I believe that your assumption that any kinetic energy over the amount delivered by the MG151 is overkill, is flawed.

Go back and read Chapter 1 of Shaw's book. In Chapter 1 he talks about Lethality, and how it is generally proportional to kinetic energy.  He then compares just the kinetic energy's of guns from US .30's-.50's-20mm (WWII)-20mm(Jet Age)-Bigger.  He explicitly talks about how shells (higher velocity) from later than WWII are more deadly. A direct contradiction of your theory.

 

But good cannon rounds use explosive energy to kill AC and the 151 has at least as much as that as the HS

True, total explosive energy content of a cannon shell exceeds the kinetic energy of most shells even at the muzzle (point of highest KE). But your also neglecting the fact that typically, due to the way explosive forces work, only a portion of the explosive energy is applied to the airframe.  So the chemical energy of the explosive does not overshadow the Kinetic energy quite so much as you seem to believe.  If that were true, then the Cannons would be much much much more deadly than MG's would be in real life or in a game such as ours.

And on what references are you basing the arguement that the Mauser shells carry as much explosive material as the Hispano shells? Please post them, I would be quite interested in them. If possible, include shells other than just the "mine shells" for reference.

Personally, I am not tied to the either theory right now, but so far the data I have seen, it seems to indicate that the Hispano MKII should be more deadly than the MG151

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Vermillion
**MOL**, Men of Leisure
"Real Men fly Radials, Nancy Boys fly Spitfires"

[This message has been edited by Vermillion (edited 05-11-2000).]

[jmccaul]

what happens if we get a tempest with 4 hispano mk v

[Pongo]

Verm
Your assumption is that the kinetic energy can be applied perfectly to an airframe.
This is no more correct for kinetic then chemical energy.
My recollection of Shaw was that he hedged arround the issue of explosive leathality and just talked about ballistic leathality.
Doenst he even admit that? cant remember for sure.

Lazs
I addmitted no such thing.
That you could read my statment and take the oppisite meaning from what I said somewhat challanges your objectivity as a tester.
I know that the HS round is much more deadly and I stated that.
Pyro can not only speak for himself he can defend himself if he has to. I was recounting what he told me online. This is a common practice on this board. To share things found out online when HTC is on in blue. If I miss quoted him he would let all of us know real quick. I have no abiguity my self that the HS is much more deadly then the 151. My whole and only point is should it be? Given an effecive HS HE shell then the HS should be more accurate and more lethal then the 151. But how much. I have searched any books I have about the spit and the typhoon and the hurricane. Looking for some statement about the introduction of the HS that indicated that the people at the time thougth that the HS was far supperior to the cannons they were facing. Or that 4 of them let you 1 ping kill a target at 800-1.4k yards. I can find not a single one to support it. Some statements by buerling that he only really used his port cannon to kill. A sort of competition between JEJ and Mcloud as to who could kill with the fewest rounds(Mcloud got one with 6 rounds or something)
Nothing that wasnt duplicated hundereds of times by experten with a single 151.
But anyone flying AH nows that that is not the case here.
So I will keep shaking the tree and trying to focus on the historical record and people who want to test can do that.
So what is your problem with that. I am not allowed to research instead of test? you find that offensive? Well live with it I guess.
Contribute what you want to contribute, ignore my posts do what ever..but quit trying to tell me what to do and dont expect me to be too interested in someone who keeps parroting the velocity of the HS as some kind of proof.
I know it. After the first few times I flew a spit I went out and did reasearch and was impressed with the ballisics of it. When they announced the 1c I asked Pyro on line if it would have the same cannon and he said yes...I said oh oh...
And I still am.

 

[SnakeEyes]

Am I the only one who finds this conversation hauntingly reminiscent of... um... er... well...?  

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SnakeEyes
o-o-o-
=4th Fighter Group=

[hblair]

rgr that snakeyes, but this is kind of interesting.

No offense lazs, but we all know the HS are stronger, have been for a long time.  It doesn't seem to be a small margin either. I don't see where testing is gonna do a whole lotta good.

I trust that pyro will check into this, and make a correction if need be.

[Pongo]

Verm
Sorry I missed your challange about the he effectivness of the 151 vs HS.
I will try to find the web pages and books that I was taking that from. Some of it was posted here by others allready.