Author Topic: La-7.....frusteration.....rising.....  (Read 6135 times)

Offline DarkglamJG52

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« Reply #90 on: November 10, 2004, 12:59:43 AM »
Quote
Originally posted by MANDO
Hola Dark,
ni idea a tu pregunta, hace casi dos meses que no vuelo, y no tengo ningún mono ;)

Saludos.


:D  Yo es que ni estoy mono, ni soy mono, pero tengo el mono. :aok

 Un saludo.

Offline 4510

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« Reply #91 on: November 10, 2004, 07:15:52 AM »
Quote
Originally posted by MANDO
AKFokerFoder, if you use the same techniques while flying La7 you will, more than problably, have far better results that with any 190, or almost any other ride.


Yeah but then he'd have no class ! :)

Offline stantond

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« Reply #92 on: November 10, 2004, 09:57:16 AM »
Bolke's Dicta works for AH. I am not sure it makes for a fun game though. Fighter Combat by Shaw does not.

Shaw provides guidance and principles for getting on another planes six using ACM. That's not where you want to be in AH. As such, Shaw is not of much help and following that book will quickly get you killed! ACM applies in AH but the best guns solution is not a tracking shot. A front quarter shot (rather than rear) is what you want. That makes for different preferred maneuvering such as horizontal scissors and reversals.

It took me a long time (not everyone is smart about everything) to realize that AH has extraordinary detail in some areas, but is bass ackwards in others. One naturally tends to think (and the rhetoric on these boards reinforces that) with all this detail the game is realistic! I get the impression AH wants to set itself apart from warbirds or air warrior by these differences. It's all a matter of perspective in what makes the game fun for you!



Regards,

Malta

Offline humble

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« Reply #93 on: November 10, 2004, 10:37:48 AM »
Actually the "best" shot is the plane form canopy shot...both in AH and real life. Those of you who are history buff's will know the german pilot who died in Med (chute failed). He was easily best pilot on anyside in any war. Had an amazing kill/sortie number. Also was probably the best ever in gunnery...shells/kill was 17 (including the 7.7mm mg's)...other pilots wouls comment that they could see the shells "walk" across the canopy on all his kills.

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Offline straffo

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« Reply #94 on: November 10, 2004, 10:49:06 AM »
you think of  Hans-Joachim Marseilles ?

Offline humble

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« Reply #95 on: November 10, 2004, 10:52:23 AM »
yup...


 The Germans were very meticulous in filing combat reports with all relevant data to include time of battle, area of operation, opposition encountered, as well as an in-depth armorers report. At the end of a mission, the armorers would count the number of bullets and cannon shells expended during the fight. Marseille would often average an astonishing 15 bullets required per victory, and this with a combat resulting in his downing of several allied aircraft. No other German pilot was close to Marseille in this area....

....1997 will mark the 55th anniversary of the death of Hans-Joachim Marseille, arguably the greatest of all World War II fighter pilots. With the coming of the anniversary, the debate as to just how great the young Berliner was will certainly continue to rage within historical aviation circles.

The basis of the debate stems from Marseille's actual, yet almost mythical, combat record in North Africa. He was credited with destroying 158 Allied aircraft, all but seven of those within an intense eighteen month period in the desert. All but four of his victories were against fighter aircraft, and all were against pilots of the western nations. No other pilot destroyed as many aircraft on the Western Front as did Marseille. During this same period, although shot down several times himself, Marseille escaped death from the angry guns of Allied pilots in over 388 combat missions. Twenty-nine other German pilots would go on to score more victories than Marseille, however, those pilots scored the majority of their victories against Russian opponents on the Eastern Front.....

His movements were so fast that it was common for the unsuspecting allied pilots to think they were under attack by a large formation of aircraft. On 15 September, 1942, for example, Marseille destroyed 7 Australian fighter aircraft within an eleven minute period and on 17 June, 1942, Marseille destroyed six aircraft within a seven minute period....

Victories   Date         Times of Victories   
88  thru 91   15 Jun 42   1902, 1903, 1904, 1905   
92 thru 95     16 Jun 42   1902, 1910, 1911, 1913   
96 thru 101    17 Jun 42   1202, 1204, 1205, 1208, 1209, 1212   
105 thru 108   01 Sep 42   0828, 0830, 0833, 0839*   
109 thru 116   01 Sep 42   1055, 1056, 1058, 1059, 1101, 1102,
            1103, 1105*   
117 thru 121   01 Sep 42   1846, 1847, 1848, 1849, 1853*   
127 thru 132   03 Sep 42   0820, 0823, 0829, 1608, 1610, c.1611   
137 thru 140   06 Sep 42   1803, 1813, 1814, 1820   
145 thru 151   15 Sep 42   1751, 1753, 1755, 1757, 1759, 1800,
            1802   
152 thru 158   26 Sep 42   0910, 0913, 0915, unk, 1656, 1659,
            1715   
                     * Indicates a total of 17 aircraft shot
                                down on this day.
« Last Edit: November 10, 2004, 11:13:43 AM by humble »

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Offline Karnak

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« Reply #96 on: November 10, 2004, 12:00:32 PM »
He also claimed to have shot down more aircraft than were operating in the area on at least one occasion.

Count me in the "He was an overrated liar" category.
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Offline humble

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« Reply #97 on: November 10, 2004, 12:26:25 PM »
Quote
Originally posted by Karnak
He also claimed to have shot down more aircraft than were operating in the area on at least one occasion.

Count me in the "He was an overrated liar" category.


Much of the debate and refusal to substantiate Marseille's combat record originates from one day of furious air combat on 1 September, 1942 in which he claimed to have destroyed 17 aircraft in three sorties. Not only did Marseille claim 17 aircraft, but he did it in a fashion that was unheard of at the time. His victims were shot out of the sky in such a rapid fashion that many Allied critics still refuse to believe Marseille's claims as fact. But it is precisely the speed and fury involved with these kills that has been the center of the Marseille debate for the past half century. For years, many British historians and militarists refused to admit that they had lost any aircraft that day in North Africa. Careful review of records however do show that the British did lose more than 17 aircraft that day, and in the area that Marseille operated. The British simply refused to believe, as many do today, that any German pilot was capable of such rapid destruction of RAF hardware.


"Yeah, everybody knew nobody could cope with him. Nobody could do the same. Some of the pilots tried it like Stahlschmidt, myself, and Rödel. He, he was an artist. Marseille was an artist." Using his hands to illustrate. "He was up here and the rest of us were down here somewhere." Friedrich Körner, 36 victories, Knight's Cross winner, 2 JG-27


Through complete and intense research of many of Marseille's claims in the desert, it can be argued that he may have indeed been guilty of some over claiming towards the end of his short and prolific career. Not that it was intentional but rather as matter of circumstances of the circus like environment his character brought to the unit. Everyone expected him to be successful on a daily basis and achieve more and more glory for their unit. Marseille in turn, certainly influenced by their enthusiasm, was so sure of his own abilities that he would sometimes fire at the enemy, break off the attack and seek the next victim without confirming the destruction of the previous target. A large percent of his victims did indeed crash land in the desert or limp back home as opposed to being utterly blown out of the sky. Regardless, even with the possibility of slight over claiming due to youthful bravado and a twinge of wishful thinking, a conservative estimate of over 130 definite, indisputable victories, equivalent to approximately ten percent of all aircraft claimed by Luftwaffe pilots in North Africa, is still a testament to this man's achievements.


Facts speak for themselfs, regardless of what you choose to believe (or not) the man was an amazingly good combat pilot. Overclaiming wasn't restricted to any one side....as a historical footnote most unbiased "experts" feel the germanshad the harshest scoring system for confirming kills and placed a greater emphisis on the "numbers". As an example every other nation considered 5 victories the "magic" number...germans needed 10 kills to lay claim to the "expertian".

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Offline stantond

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« Reply #98 on: November 10, 2004, 12:34:28 PM »
The 'best' shot in actual combat is the one that downs the enemy airplane while subjecting yours to the least risk.   I believe that is what all the pilots who survived combat say.   A canopy shot is far from meeting that description.

I have had the privilege on several occasions to talk after dinner with Ret. Gen Brady who was a WW2 B24 gunner.   From his experience, the Japanese fighters always used the HO tactic on bombers because that was where they were least defended.  In the pacific there were some kamakzi's, but he never saw one.

Whenever the B24 gunners saw a plane aligning to attack, they would open up at max+ range.  The tracer fire always discouraged enemy planes from attacking.  Of course, you cannot load all tracers or you burn the MG barrel up.


Regards,

Malta

Offline humble

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« Reply #99 on: November 10, 2004, 12:57:31 PM »
A front quarter shot (rather than rear) is what you want

Thats the riskiest shot you can have...air combat is about controlling the fight. Proper BFM will enable you to engage and apply proper ACM to establish a rear hemisphere position with regard to the con....that position should then never be disgarded unless you elect to disengage. No competent fighter pilot is ever going to elect any type of front quarter fight.

Also the purpose of a scissor is to force the opposing fighter out in front so you can shoot him in the prettythang...not to setup any type of a face shot....

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Offline AKFokerFoder+

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« Reply #100 on: November 10, 2004, 01:11:23 PM »
Quote
Originally posted by MANDO
AKFokerFoder, if you use the same techniques while flying La7 you will, more than problably, have far better results that with any 190, or almost any other ride.  



Exactly!  

That is how I fight with any airplane, even a TNB.  Just because you fly a T N B plane doesn’t mean you throw energy management out the window.  But many do throw e management out, hop in a Spit or Hurri and then quickly get in a situation where they are lower and slower than their attackers, and then they whine that they are being gang banged and vulched.

The LA7 is a superior ride, probably the best non-perk ride in the arena, with (IMHO) the Pony D being a very close second. I could in all probability have a much better K/D with the LA7.  But with the ENY limitations (buncha kee-rap) on game play, I have chosen a ride that I feel I can fly almost any time, that can be flown competitively in the arcade furballing mad house that is the main arena.  For me that turns out to be the 190A8.  My philosophy is that it is better to fly a lesser plane to the edge of it’s performance all the time, than fly uber planes until getting screwed by ENY limitations.  Then I would find myself in a lesser plane and not know the performance edge.


Energy = Life :)

Offline stantond

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« Reply #101 on: November 10, 2004, 01:14:33 PM »
humble,

Are you disagreeing that a frontal shot has preference in AH?  Or, are you taking a partial sentence out of context and making an incoherent statement about it?  I missed your point.



Regards,

Malta

Offline humble

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« Reply #102 on: November 10, 2004, 01:14:46 PM »
That is how I fight with any airplane, even a TNB. Just because you fly a T N B plane doesn’t mean you throw energy management out the window. But many do throw e management out, hop in a Spit or Hurri and then quickly get in a situation where they are lower and slower than their attackers, and then they whine that they are being gang banged and vulched


hehe thats me....cept I'm doing it in a KI-61 (well lala last 2 days)...afterall someone has to go in and get them suckers milling around for ya:aok

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Offline AKFokerFoder+

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« Reply #103 on: November 10, 2004, 01:20:18 PM »
Quote
Originally posted by stanton

That's not where you want to be in AH. As such, Shaw is not of much help and following that book will quickly get you killed!


I musta read a different book. :rolleyes:

Quote
)...afterall someone has to go in and get them suckers milling around for ya


Humble, I do appreciate the setups you give me :aok

Sortta like clubbing seal pups on the ice :rofl

Offline stantond

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« Reply #104 on: November 10, 2004, 01:29:26 PM »
There is some contention to my statements? And your point being?  Is there an argument?  It looks like the answer is no.  


Reading a book and understanding the contents are very different.  


Regards,

Malta:rofl