Question to Finns

[mora]

Originally posted by Raven_2
to mora

>>I don't think the immigrants really do any notable amount of stealing.

Um. Only russian do steal in the shops? Or other tourists as well?

Of course there are individual shoplifters of all backrounds. There are 2 groups that stand out, and they are the Russian bus tourists and gypsies.

I don't think the word "tourist" is the right to describe them as the only purpose for their visit is to buy goods that are overpriced or unavailable in Russia, thanks to your goverment. Unfortunately there are some criminals among them that give them a bad rep. Despite the rotten apples I would not want them to stop coming here. I guess we just need to do our best to prevent shoplifting.

[Staga]

I think most of the Russian tourists are just ordinary people who come here to enjoy clean nature, good service and amusements.
I was at the "Serena" waterpark at January with my fiancee and already in parking area it looked like most of the cars over there were having Russian plates and when inside the spa it sounded like 2 out of 3 people spoke Russian.

[Raven_2]

to mora

>>I don't think the word "tourist" is the right to describe them as the only purpose for their visit is to buy goods that are overpriced or unavailable in Russia, thanks to your goverment.

We call this shop-tours. And don`t blame government for that. Here, at Vladivostok, many "tourists" from South Korea and his only aim is to buy golden jewerly and ... um, forgot ... ikra ... fish eggs :-) So, shop-tours exists in the whole world :-)

BTW, most of cars here, at Vladivostok are from Japan (Toyota mainly). And about 50% of its are jeeps (Lexus, Land Cruiser, Surf, Prado and so on).

[mora]

Originally posted by Raven_2
don`t blame government for that.

Your goverment has put so many restrictions on imports that many western products are either unavailable or overpriced. That's of course good for us, and I'm not complaining. I used to work at a Volvo dealership and many Russians came freguently to buy huge loads of spare parts. When I asked why they were doing it, they said that they are twice as expensive in Russia if you can even find them. The Russians who brought their cars for service were the best customers I ever had. They just asked us to fix every problem we can find and not to worry about calling for cost estimates.

Actually I've done quite a bit lot of Vodka-tourism to Estonia. The reasons behind it are quite similar.

[Raven_2]

to mora

>>When I asked why they were doing it, they said that they are twice as expensive in Russia if you can even find them.

Know nothing about western cars. Here, at eastern part of Russia, close to Japan, we can always find all needed parts. And there is no reason to go to Japan for parts, `cause transportation would cost you more (except you buy whole container of parts :-).

>>Your goverment has put so many restrictions on imports that many western products are either unavailable or overpriced.

It`san official Russia politic to protect our own products from concurency with imported. This help to activate production in our country and also helps to gain investment in our economics. It`s chiper to build factory in Russia and produce goods for local market than import them here and then sell, first way do more profit - both for Russia and investor. So, this makes our economics stronger and in the long run this would be better for whole country.

[Fishu]

Originally posted by Raven_2

BTW, how many of american citiziens was killed by serbs kids?

Why don`t you say the same to USA? Is Hirosima has any sense?

And how many Afganistan people die for 9/11? All of them was terrorists? Including kids and womans?

Now what the hell does americans and me have to do with this issue?
I've already told you that some of the forum trollers here calls me an anti-american, 'nuff said.
(a hint: I might've actually told something not so pleasant about the americans, which triggers off the aggressive defensive reaction from some of the american trollers)

Get your crap together and get back into the subject.

For 21 year here there was no any criminal accidents. I wasn`t robed, beaten or something like that. It`s amyth.

...yeah, there might not be any crimes in an unknown village in Vladivostok, where everyone knows each others and nobody has nothing worth robbing.

Maybe you should look towards western russia and it's big cities.
I would never ever walk in certain parts of St.Petersburg or at night alone in many parts of it. I'd be most certainly mugged.

In 90-95 criminals were everywere, like marauders at war

Thats less than 21 years ago.

[Boroda]

Originally posted by Raven_2
to Boroda

>>Прости, а ты кто?  Я тебя знаю?

Нет. Увидел этот линк на опер ру. Зашёл. Почитал. Обсудил этот тред в теме о Второй Мировой на другом форуме, русском. Теперь, вот, решил помочь :-) Только пишу я по-английски плохо :-(
 

Да отлично ты пишешь Доходчиво!

Даю краткую справку по участникам дискуссии:

Тоад - отставной офицер, летал на разведывательных машинах на Дальнем Востоке, толковый персонаж, но любит флудить и пинать меня за Катынь, как будто лично я тех клятых ляхов передушил.

Сиаф - просто сяфка какая-то, бредун-галлюцинатор, раньше в поле "фром" писал "Ангола", я думал что он негр из Лумумбария, отморозивший в снежной России головной мозг.

Финны - хорошие, разумные ребята, в личном общении даже следуют логике и здравому смыслу, но тут просто повторяют политику партии. Задуматься мы их заставили, уже достижение.

Вообще - хороший форум, народ довольно образованный по западным меркам, но требует некоторой политработы Был бы рад если бы ты постучался мне в Аську Просто мой статус тут довольно забавен, "дебильный коммунистический ублюдок" я совсем не из-за "коси и забивай" на аватаре...

Вспоминаю, как в другом форуме эта же публика меня травила за наш маленький проект (вбфрее.нет), и писала мне письма с извинениями - дескать полностью поддерживают, но на людях должны поливать дерьмом...

Спасибо большое за поддержку!

[Boroda]

Originally posted by Toad
You fall back upon the same barbaric excuses for barbarism.

Yes, they were so outraged they became their enemy. The Soviet troops became as barbaric as the Nazis. And apparently were proud of that. Congratulations. And still you wonder why Russians have the reputation they have.

Toad, again: official Soviet policy was shooting looters and rapists in front of their units. OTOH nazis issued an order, according to which no German serviceman or Army employee could be perecuted for any crime against civilian population in USSR.

Toad, veterans I have talked to were absolutely disappointed by the fact that they were not allowed to "revenge" in Germany. So it goes.

[Siaf__csf]

So it goes.. The official history and contradicting witness stories of the victims. Well, the ones that lived to tell that is.

From what I've heard the red army was the most feared enemy for the civillians.

[Fishu]

Originally posted by Siaf__csf
So it goes.. The official history and contradicting witness stories of the victims. Well, the ones that lived to tell that is.

From what I've heard the red army was the most feared enemy for the civillians.

There must be a reason why the soldiers and civilians tried to flee to the west.

[Raven_2]

to Fishu

>>...yeah, there might not be any crimes in an unknown village in Vladivostok

LOL Vladivostok it`s a biggest port city on the east coast of Russia, it`s a base for Russian Pacific Ocean Navy and one of the biggest cities in the Russia as well. It`s a about two million people here. So "where everyone knows each others and nobody has nothing worth robbing" - it`s a bull**** :-)

>>Thats less than 21 years ago.

Sure. But there was much like gangster war in 30 in USA. They mainly kill each other.

>>Now what the hell does americans and me have to do with this issue?

All of you blame only Russia for all the world murders - thts it. Still call Russia The Empire if Evil? Look around you. 300.000 in Hirosima is much more than 4.000 (official Russia sources from NKVD archives, said on TV week ago) in Katyn - but still Soviet troops are barbaric bastards for you and all others are wingless angels. Don`t like USA? OK, we can talk about finish crimes at WWII.

to Siaf__csf

>>stories of the victims

... throught a pack of 100$ bancnots in their mouthes. It`s easy to find "victims" if you have some money. It`s an everyday practice in any country, if you don`t know.

>>From what I've heard the red army was the most feared enemy for the civillians.

Nazi burn alive over 2.5 million people only at West Ukraine, if you don`t know. Brutality of Soviet troops (if it really had the place) was only reaction on this mass sensless killing of civilians in WWII. After all, non of you didn`t post here any documented facts of such brutality. And, if you don`t know, there is a lot of monuments to heroism of Soviet troops (including "Soviet soldier and the baby" in Deutsch) at Europe, builded by the Erope countries itself. Now in Latvia their nazi vandalisticaly destroys them :-(

And the last: killing of innocent people was a bad thing, yes. But it was not a crime, `cause declaration of human right was signed after WWII, in 1948.

to all

There isa lot of good new books (by westerners) about USSR in WWII. I don`t read them by myself for now, but heard them there much less of lies in them.
The Eаstеrп Frопt by  John Ericson (London, Carlton Books, 2001)
Russia's Heroes 1941 — 1945 by Albert Axel (London, Constable, 2001)
Stalin and the Soviet-Finish War 1939 — 1940 by redaction of Chubaryan and Shukman (London, Frank Cass, 2002)

Maybe there is errors in last names spelling.

[Raven_2]

to Boroda

>>Спасибо большое за поддержку!

Да не за что. Просто сейчас идёт какая-то дурацкая попытка переделать историю - причём именно в глазах самих русских. Один Резун-Суворов чего стоит. Умные люди на такое, естественно, не ведутся. Основное мнение о таких вот дискуссиях у моих знакомых - "Да забей, пускай что хотят, то и думают". Я так не могу. Не терплю, когда кто-то лжёт о моём народе.

>>Тоад - отставной офицер, летал на разведывательных машинах на Дальнем Востоке, толковый персонаж, но любит флудить и пинать меня за Катынь, как будто лично я тех клятых ляхов передушил.

Я ему та-а-акой линк кинул :-) То-то он пока не отвечает :-) Думаю, его взгляды на иракскую кампанию сильно пошатнутся :-)

>>Был бы рад если бы ты постучался мне в Аську

Угу. Только у меня +7 с Москвой,так что если ты из западной части России... :-)

Посмотри этот линк:
http://gpw.tellur.ru/page.html?r=books&s=beevor

Хорошая база для опровержения лжи о зверствах в Берлине.

[Toad]

Originally posted by Boroda
Toad, again: official Soviet policy was shooting looters and rapists in front of their units.  

That was "official policy"? Probably so... however, that's not what happened.

It was the women, too, who suffered most when the Red Army arrived. The first wave of battle-hardened troops who fought their way into the city were, in general, well-disciplined and did not harm civilians, either men or women.

But these troops were speedily followed by second-echelon men, support unit soldiers many of whom had been prisoners of the Germans, or were criminals. 'We opened up our jails and stuck everybody into the army,' Stalin said, explaining why the Red Army could not be ideal. And these brutalized individuals more than made up for any restraint shown by those who had preceded them.

Every woman in Berlin, it seemed, regardless of age or beauty, was considered fair game. The grunted 'Woman, come' became the prelude to nightmare for thousands and thousands of Berlinerin, some of whom were raped over and over again. Some 90,000 women sought medical treatment as a result of being raped.

It is almost impossible to estimate how many others did not. There are countless examples, countless stories of women's experiences, of how they tried to escape, of the subterfuges they and their husbands used to try to avoid further assaults. Many of those who failed sought the ultimate solution by committing suicide....

...For nearly two weeks after the fall of the city, the Soviet authorities turned a blind eye to the sexual assaults, and to the looting and robbery that went on unchecked.

Clearly they believed their men deserved 'a little fun', as Stalin described it, after their years of fighting. Then, suddenly, the party was over: from 15 May, discipline was restored, and any Red Army man who stepped out of line was liable to be shot. The number of rapes was reduced, but they did not stop. The memory of that dreadful time still haunts the older women of Berlin today.

Source: Anthony Read and David Fisher, Berlin Rising: The Biography of a City (New York: W.W. Norton & Company, 1994).

Now, go ahead and excuse it as "just a little fun" or "the German women deserved it" or "the Russian troops deserved a little revenge."

Go ahead and defend 90,000 women (plus the ones that were too ashamed to seek treatment or report it).

It's best if you paint self-portraits.

[Toad]

Originally posted by Raven_2
So, you said, there is no Indian culture and indian nation at all, only "independent tribes", yes?

[/b]

No I said there was no nation. Nor was their culture "wiped out". As I said, almost all of the tribes that existed in the later 1800's still exist today.

I suspect you have absolutely no clue about how many Native Americans lived within the boundaries of the US at any particular time as it grew.

Only a tiny percentage of Navite Americans that died during that period were killed in "hostile action." If you think otherwise, you've watched too many Hollywood movies. Disease was by far the greatest threat to Native Americans.

Americans don`t have cassete bombs at that time, I suppose. If you had it, you wiped out all indians in two weeks, yes?

[/b]

Again, you don't know American history. There were rabid anti-Native American whites, like Chivington. However, to cast all whites in that mold just shows how little you've studied the subject.

Ouh. If this not happened, then brave polaks was stoped faschist invasion to USSR, yes? :-)

[/b]

Well, for certain the NKVD wouldn't have had the opportunity to murder 24,000+ Polish POW's.

The Soviets were ALLIES of the Nazis at that time. You must be proud of that and of helping the Nazis conquer Poland. Yet you still couldn't stop the "faschist invasion to USSR" when you two criminals finally had a falling out, could you?

They surrender the day after!

[/b]

Wrong again. Even after Nagasaki, the military leaders wanted to fight on. Hirohito finally overruled them and surrendered.

Ever heard about this? The militarists were not going to give up.

Japanese Coup d' Etat is hatched by War Minister General Anami's military staff. Principally: Colonel Arao, Lieutenant Colonel Take****a (brother-in-law to General Anami), Lieutenant Inaba, and Major Hatanaka.

The objectives of the coup are to kidnap the Emperor, confiscate his recordings of peace and keep the war going. The recording by the Emperor had become the key to war or peace. The Japanese, dedicated to fight to the death, could only be stopped by words from the Emperor....

...Major Hatanaka, and a Lt. Colonel thought to be Lt. Col. Mikasa, the Emperor's youngest brother, enter the Palace grounds and is joined by Colonel Haga, commander of the 2nd Regiment of the Imperial Guards Division. This Regiment had the responsibility of protecting the Emperor. Colonel Haga had agreed with Hatanaka that they should "protect" the Emperor from his traitorous peace seeking advisors. Hatanaka and Haga set up plans to intercept the Emperor and to insure that his recordings of peace are confiscated. (The 2nd Regiment has added an extra battalion so the Regiment numbers over 1000 soldiers).....

By luck, a bombing raid and a power failure, the revolt failed and Hirohito survived to surrender.

It's an interesting bit of history. I hope you enjoy it while you educate yourself.

And you bombard CIVILIANS!

[/b]

Yeah, we did. So did every nation that dropped bombs in WW2. But we did not have our Secret Police murder 14,000+ POW's and we did not allow our troops to rape 90,000+ women in captured cities for two weeks while the Officers ignored it.

That's the big difference between you and US, I think.  Well, that and the fact that you continue to defend such barbarity instead of admitting it and admitting that it was a shameless, brutal act.


 

[/b]If one president say this, others must accept this. Main rule of foreign politic.

[/b]

And now Russia’s Chief Military Prosecutor’s Office admits it as well. See what I mean about being unable to admit a brutal, shameless act? Most of your countrymen can handle the truth. I wonder what's wrong with you and Boroda?

Yeah, `till they have oil to pay you for repair destruction you did...

[/b]

Afghanistan has no oil. In any event, there are NO requirements for repayment of our rebuilding of these two countries.

Put up or shut up... show me where there's an agreement saying they have to repay us.

at how many parties ran for election in Afghanistan or Iraq.

Yes, they exist. They even exist in election list. But they never be ellected till USA forces are in the country.

[/b]

At least you got THAT right. In Afghanistan under Russian occupation there was ONE party, right? NO CHOICE. It took the Amreekans coming to make political choice possible.

Same for Iraq under Saddam... ONE PARTY, ONE CHOICE. It took the Amreekans coming to make political choice possible.

Thank you for making my point.

On 12 november 2003 there was 13500-45000 civil casualities.[/quote

All your sites count all people killed in Iraq and attribute all of the deaths to the US.

That's just BS. If a Sunni nutjob drives a car full of explosives into a Shiite funeral, those deaths should be placed on the religious nutjobs that caused them. Sure wasn't the US.

The list of direct action US related deaths is about 8000. Too many, but you may note there was a war.

Americans is the same level of barbarity as Saddam was. It`s by your own words.

Hardly, its a figment of your imagination and a willingness to use incorrect numbers.

[Raven_2]

to Toad

>>Now, go ahead and excuse it as "just a little fun" or "the German women deserved it" or "the Russian troops deserved a little revenge."

I can show you citates when said then americans do 9/11. Lie? No doubt.

If someone wrote something then there is no doubt in it for you? Maybe some documented by germans historical evidences, no? Just two guys from London and you buy it? Seems like western copy of Pravda to me :-)

BTW, I can show you official documents ... forgot ... prikazy ... comands to army. They are in russian, but you can translate it throught Babelfish or something.

>>If you think otherwise, you've watched too many Hollywood movies.

Maybe I read too many books? :-) In Russian Encyclopedia said that on 1984 there was 37,5 mln. of indians in whoole world (mostly in Paraguai, Bolivia and Guatemala). Most of the tribes were totaly wiped out. In Canada and USA live mostly in reservations. Black on wite.

Now, western sources:

M. D. Aletheia, The Rationalist's Manual (1897): 30,000,000 Mexicans and Peruvians were slaughtered.
David Barrett, World Christian Trends: Conquistadors killed 15M Amerindians
Coe, Snow and Benson, Atlas of Ancient America (1986)
Total pre-Columbian population: 40M
Mexico: Original population of 11M to 25M ("lower figure commands more support") fell to 1.25M (1625)
Peru: Pop. fell from 9M (1533) to >500,000 (early 17th C)
Brazil: Original population of 2.5M to 5.0M ("recent commentators favoring the higher") fell to 1M
Massimo Livi-Bacci, Concise History of World Population History 2d (1996)
Mexico: Population fell from 6.3M (1548) to 1.9M (1580) to 1M (1605)
Peru: Pop. fell from 1.3M (1572) to 600,000 (1620)
Canada: from 300,000 (ca. 1600) to < 100,000 (ca. 1800)
USA: from 5M (1500) to 60,000 (ca. 1800)
R.J. Rummel estimates that 13,778,000 American Indians died of democide in the 16th through 19th Centuries:
Total dead among native Americans in colonial era: 49.5M out of pre-contact population of 55M
Democides in this: 5M
Democides among Indians, post-colonial era: 8,763,000
Democides in US: 15,000
Skidmore & Smith, Modern Latin America (1997)
Mexico: Population fell from 25M (1519) to 16.8M (1523) to 1.9M (1580) to 1M (1605)
Peru: from 1.3M (1570, forty years after Conquest) to <600,000 (1620)
Stannard, American Holocaust (1992): 100,000,000 deaths across time
16th Century death toll: between 60M and 80M
Panama, 1514-1530: 2M Indians killed
Mexico
Central: Population fell from 25.0M (1519) to 1.3M (1595)
SE: fell from 1,700,000 to 240,000
North: fell from 2,500,000 to 320,000
Peru, 16th C.: between 8.5M and 13.5M people destroyed.
Fredric Wertham, A Sign For Cain : An Exploration of Human Violence (1966): South American death toll of 15,000,000.

>>USA: from 5M (1500) to 60,000 (ca. 1800)

Your nation killed at least 4.000.000 of them.

And how about this:
>>Stannard, American Holocaust (1992): 100,000,000 deaths across time.

Nazi are angels comparing to you if that true :-)

And how about mexicanos in 1846-48? Your nation occupied > 1/2 of their land (and this is > 1/3 of yours).

>>However, to cast all whites in that mold just shows how little you've studied the subject.

I can mirror you own words about OUR history.

>>You must be proud of that and of helping the Nazis conquer Poland.

And you must be proud for helping USSR to occupy Poland :-) Poland come to USSR by Potsdam agreement signed by USA, England and USSR.

>>Wrong again. Even after Nagasaki, the military leaders wanted to fight on. Hirohito finally overruled them and surrendered.

So that gave you the right to destroy 300.000 civilians?

>>So did every nation that dropped bombs in WW2.

Nuclear bombs?

>>But we did not have our Secret Police murder 14,000+ POW's and we did not allow our troops to rape 90,000+ women in captured cities for two weeks while the Officers ignored it.

Sure, you just melted three times more people. Nazi burnt 2.5 millions of ukraine civilians, you melted 300.000 of japan civilians. What difference? Only in numbers?

>>Well, that and the fact that you continue to defend such barbarity instead of admitting it and admitting that it was a shameless, brutal act.

So KILLING CIVILIANS ISN`T BRUTAL FOR YOU?!!! It was an every day bussines for USA troops?

>>Afghanistan has no oil.

... and get no repair maded. You now only have military bases there, no more.

>>It took the Amreekans coming to make political choice possible.

... between worse and worser...

>>Hardly, its a figment of your imagination and a willingness to use incorrect numbers.

But why you didn`t comment other parts? You know, about children deathes and 400 "people" died (and > 10.000 sub-humans)? One more lie? And what isn`t lie for you? Only what you president and TV say to you? What your american variant of Pravda said to you?



And about Katyn. Where did you find number of 24.000. OfficialWESTERN sources:

Katyn Massacre (April-May 1940):
Dictionary of 20C World History: 14,000 Polish officers systematically killed. 4,500 bodies discovered by Germans.
30 July 2000 Sunday Telegraph [London]: 15,000 k.
Paul Johnson: 15,000 -- a third at Katyn, the rest in Sov. conc. camps.
Gilbert: 15,000 Polish POWs sent to 3 camps - Starobelsk, Kozelsk, Ostashkov - all killed. 4,400 from Kozelsk killed at Katyn.

4.500 bodies found at Katyn - maximum. 15.000 total poland officers punished - maximum. So,where youfind 24000?Read from American Pravda newspapper? :-)