Question to Finns

[Raven_2]

And now something interest for all USSR-haters. Civil casualities by Anglo-American Allies:

Bombing of Germany: 400,000 (Hammond); 410,000 (Rummel, 100% democidal); 593,000 (Keegan; also Grenville citing "official Germany"); 600,000 (P. Johnson)

Bombing of Japan:
Conventional: 260,000 (Keegan, P. Johnson)
Nuclear: 103,000 died outright (Keegan); 130,000 outright (Messenger);120,000 outright, 140,000 later (Our Times); 175,000 outright, 100,000 later (P. Johnson)
Total: 363,000 (Keegan, not including post-war radiation sickness); 374,000 (Rummel, incl. 337,000 democidal); 435,000 (P. Johnson); 500,000 (Harper Collins Atlas of the Second World War)

Bombing of Romania & Hungary: 50,000 (Rummel)

Mistreatment of Axis POWs
James Bacque, Other Losses (1989) made the first accusation that Americans deliberately starved German POWs, killing about a million.

Bacque [http://www.corax.org/revisionism/misc/970920bacques.html]
Bacque's 2nd book, Crimes & Mercies, expands the body count to 9.3-13.7M Germans killed by the Allies after the end of the war, incl. some 2.1-6.0M civilians who died being expelled from the East. [http://codoh.com/review/revcrimes.html]

>>9.3-13.7M Germans killed by the Allies after the end of the war

Still blame us for 4.500 POW at Katyn? And don`t forget - this is your own,western sources, not "USSR propoganda".

[Staga]

Russia took 3,5-4 Million German soldioers as PoWs in WW2; How many of them returned to Germany after the war?

[Raven_2]

to Staga

Richard Overy, Russia's War (1997): official figures released under glasnost
Germans: 2,388,000 POWs taken, of which 356,000 died
Hungarians, Romanians, etc.: 1,097,000 taken, of which 162,000 died
Japanese: 600,000 taken, of which 61,855 died
[Total: 4,085,000 taken, of which ca. 580,000 died]

>>580,000 died

Died. Not punished or executed. Wounds, famine, illness and so on.

comapare this with 9.3-13.7M Germans killed by  Anglo-American Allies. So, who is barbaric?

[Staga]

Russian "official figures". Yeah; I'm sure that's correct number. Not.

So again; How many of those PoWs returned to Germany?

[Raven_2]

to Toad

About Japan. Yes I forgot capitulate date... Still, if you want to Japan to capitulate, there were no reason to drop nuclear bombs on cities. Or, at least, you can drop them on Quantun army (that was destroyed by USSR troops). But USA prefer civilian deathes... There were absolutely no reason for this massacre.

[Raven_2]

to Staga

>>Russian "official figures". Yeah; I'm sure that's correct number. Not.
>>So again; How many of those PoWs returned to Germany?

>>Brzezinski: 1,000,000 total d. (incl. 357,000 Germans, 140,000 Poles)
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Zbigniew_Brzezinski - american, poland by birth. Another USSR-hater?

3.000.000 returned. 1.000.000 (maximum) died. Again - not punished or something. Died.

Compare with:

Soviet Prisoners of War killed:
Urlanis: 3,912,000
12 March 1995 Times-Picayune: nearly 3.5M
Our Times: 3,300,000
Rummel: 3,100,000
MEDIAN: 3.0-3.1M
Mazower, Dark Continent: 3M
Harper Collins Atlas of the Second World War: 3,000,000
Shirer, The Rise and Fall of the Third Reich (1960): 2,000,000 dead and 1,000,000 never accounted for, presumed dead.
Britannica: 2,600,000

And, again:

Anglo-American Allies:
<...>
Mistreatment of Axis POWs:
James Bacque, Other Losses (1989) made the first accusation that Americans deliberately starved German POWs, killing about a million.

>>that Americans deliberately starved German POWs, killing about a million.

Killing. Killing. Killing. There were 1.000.000 deathes in barbaric USSR (by many factors) and 1.000.000 deathes in civilized USA (was starved to death).

[Raven_2]

to Toad

>>Yah, I can see it all ended when Stalin died. And still you wonder how the Soviets can be so "misunderstood".
>>We all wonder how long you folks can remain in denial.

>>Now, you go list the places invaded by the "most agressive country of last 20 years".

I promise, I do.

According to your post, 30.000 dies in Hugury (both civil and military), 83 in Prague and also there were Afganistan occupation (33.000 of civilians killed by soviets, western sources, maximum number). Your total is: 63.083.

USA crimes. Well, there a LOT of them, so I divide it to 2-3 posts. All info from western sources. Unsorted.

So, begin:

According to the 21 March 1998 Times Union (Albany), the UN Food and Agriculture Organization estimated that 1,000,000 Iraqis, incl. 560,000 children, died as a result of malnutrition and disease caused by the international embargo imposed following the invasion of Kuwait. The article mentions the use of these numbers by an official of the United Church of Christ, and also labels the figures "commonly used -- but also disputed".

Ramsey Clark: 1,500,000 including 750,000 children [http://www.twf.org/News/Y1997/Ramsey.html]

UNICEF: 500,000 excess child deaths (under-five) 1991 to 1998

Al-Thawra newspaper: 1.5M

1.500.000, half of them was childrens. Total: 1.500.000

Racism:
Just out of curiosity, I decided to calculate the death toll of racism in the United States, and it certainly looks like non-whites suffered 3,300,000 excess deaths from 1900 to 1970.

Sources: Throughout most of American history, non-whites have had a significantly higher death rate than whites. As there's no natural reason for whites to live longer than non-whites, the cause for this difference must be social -- rooted in poverty and manifesting itself in malnutrition, inadequate public health, substandard medical care, homicide, alcoholism, suicide and drug addiction.

If we subtract the number of non-whites who would have died anyway (even at a white death rate) from the number who did die -- year-by-year -- and then add it all up, we get our total number of excess deaths.
Because this is just my calculations -- not peer-reviewed or gathered from a reputable source -- I'll give you a lot of detail. My source for the raw numbers is Watenburg, The Statistical History of the United States (1976). As an example of my methods, consider this: in 1920, the death rate for whites was 12.6/1000, while for non-whites it was 17.7/1000. Now, if we multiply the non-white death rate by the estimated non-white population of 10,951,000, we find that there were approximately 193,833 deaths among non-whites in 1920. If they had died at the white death rate, however, there would only have been 137,983 deaths. Therefore, we've got 55,850 excess deaths caused by the socioeconomic handicap of not being white.
Decade by decade, here are the totals:

Decade    Excess Deaths   
1960s    65,000   
1950s    200,000   
1940s    300,000   
1930s    535,000   
1920s    630,000   
1910s    735,000   
1900s    835,000   
TOTAL    3,300,000

[source:http://users.erols.com/mwhite28/warstat8.htm#Racism]

~265.000 till 1950s. Total: 1.765.000

Not The Enemy Media [http://nottheenemy.com/index_files/Death%20Counts/Death%20Counts.htm]
Killed through U.S. foreign policy since WWII: 10,774,706 to 16,856,361 (1945-May 2003)

Just for information.

Iraq, American Occupation (2003- )
[Relevant sources in chronological order]
May 28, 2003
Guardian: est. 13,500-45,000 Iraqi troops and paramilitaries KIA. ("may lie closer to the lower figure")

Project on Defense Alternatives (20 Oct. 2003).
 Iraqi fatalities [http://www.comw.org/pda/0310rm8.html]
 Combatants: 9,200 ± 1,600
 Non-combatants: 3,750 ± 550
 Total: 12,950 ± 2,150

17 March 2004 NYTimes
 Civilians killed in Iraq (during conquest, 20 March -1 May, 2003): acc2 ...
  -Civic: 5000+
  -Project on Defense Alternatives: 3,200 - 4,300
 Iraqi Interior Ministry, preliminary figures: ca. 500 Iraqi civilians killed by Coalition forces during the occupation.

19 March 2004 NY Post
 During conquest (19 March 2003-1 May 2003)
  - U.S: 85 k
  - Iraqi combatants: 13,000
  - Iraqi civilians: 4,300
  [TOTAL: ca. 17,400]

USA Today (1 June 2004): 37 Iraqi & Afghan POWs died in U.S. custody - 15 of them shot, strangled or beaten.

8 Sept. 2004 AP: 10,000-30,000 Iraqis k since war began, citing
 -Amnesty Int.: 10,000 civ. k. in 1st year.
 -Human Rights Organization in Iraq: 30,000
 -Iraqi Health Ministry: 2,956 civilians k. nationwide, 5 Apr.-31 Aug. 2004
 -Sheik Omar Clinic: 10,363 violent deaths in/around Baghdad since war began
 -Iraq Body Count: 11,793-13,802

17 Sept. 2004 Christian Science Monitor: 700 Iraqi police k. since war's end.

Brookings Inst. [http://www.brookings.edu/views/op-ed/ohanlon/20040917.htm]
 -U.S. troop fatalities in Iraq: 1,005
 -Iraqi civilians k. April 30, 2003-July 30, 2004: 11,400-22,200
 -Iraqi police k. since May 2003: 710

24 Sept. 2004 Knight-Ridder
"Operations by U.S. and multinational forces and Iraqi police are killing twice as many Iraqis - most of them civilians - as attacks by insurgents, according to statistics compiled by the Iraqi Health Ministry and obtained exclusively by Knight Ridder." [http://www.realcities.com/mld/krwashington/9753303.htm]
From June 10 to Sept. 10, 1,295 Iraqis were killed in clashes with multinational forces and police versus 516 killed in terrorist operations

28 Oct 2004: study in The Lancet medical journal estimates 98,000 extra deaths during the postwar period. [http://abcnews.go.com/International/wireStory?id=206232 and http://www.tnr.com/blog/iraqd?pid=2240 and http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/articles/A7967-2004Oct28.html]

28 Jan. 2005 BBC: Iraq's Ministry of Health, Official figures: 3,274 Iraqi civilians k: 2,041 by coalition and Iraqi security forces + 1,233 by insurgents (1 July 2004 to 1 Jan. 2005) [http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/programmes/panorama/4217413.stm]

8 Feb. 2005 CNN: "U.S. military believes it killed between 10,000 and 15,000 guerillas in combat last year", incl. ca. 3,000 in Falluja in Nov. 2004 [http://www.cnn.com/2005/WORLD/meast/02/08/iraq.main/]

March 1, 2005 NY Times: >1,300 Iraqi security officers killed over the past 18 months or so.

3 March 2003 CNN
 -U.S.: 1,502 d. incl., 1,147 in combat.
 -Iraqi security forces: 1,450 KIA since September 2003, acc. to Pentagon.
 -Overall number of Iraqis killed since the conflict began: 10,000 to 30,000.

ESTIMATED TOTAL KILLED (3 March 2005)
 -USA, Coalition and contractors: 1,892 (ICasualties.Org)
 -Iraqi military during invasion: 7,600-13,500 (Proj. Def. Alt., NY Post, Guardian)
 -Iraqi insurgents: 10,000-15,000 (CNN)
 -Iraqi security forces, post-invasion: 1,300-1,450 (NY Times,CNN)
 -Civilians: 16,100-18,400 (Iraq Body Count)

TOTAL: ca. 37,000-50,000 k.

(37.000+50.000)/2[ALL]-2.000[USA mil]-(7.600+13.500)/2[Iraq mil]=10.550 (and still growing). Total: 1.775.550

[Raven_2]

Part 2 of USA crimes list.

Afghanistan (2001- )

Military Deaths:
 -21 March 2002 The Western Mail (Financial Times Information): 5,000-10,000 Taleban and al-Qaeda K,Wd or Cap. [Dead alone would be ca. 1/4 that, i.e. 1,250-2,500]
 -14 Oct. 2002 Time: 5,000 Taliban and Al Qaeda KIA; 23 USAns.
 -Iraq Coalition Casualty Count: 139 USAns (to 16 Oct 2004)

Atrocities:
 -26 Aug. 2002 Newsweek: 960-1,000+ Taliban POWs k. by Northern Alliance

Indirect Civilian Deaths:
 -20 May 2002 [London] Guardian: Max. war-related avoidable deaths: 49,600
 -Remained at home, relief disrupted: 40,000 d. max.
 -Refugee d. in camps: 1,600
 -Refugee d. outside the camps: 8,000
 -Of those, 60%-80% would have happened anyway, so 20%-40% US fault: 10,000-19,840 at max.

Direct Civilian Deaths:
 -12 Feb. 2002 [London] Guardian: 2,000-8,000
 -Marc Herold: 3,767 (Oct. 7-Dec. 6) [http://www.cursor.org/stories/civilian_deaths.htm]. Revised overall death toll (October 7 to February 6) is 3,000 to 3,600 [Guardian (London), 20 May 2002]
 -14 Oct. 2002 Time: <3,000
 -3 June 2002 LA Times: 1,067 to 1,201 civilian deaths (not incl. 497 deaths that were not identified as either civilian or military). Also cited:
  -Relief officials with interim Afghan government: 1,000 to 2,000
  -Herold: 3,050 to 3,500

Project on Defense Alternatives (18 Jan. 2002): 1,000-1,300 [http://www.comw.org/pda/0201oef.html]
11 Feb. 2002 AP: 500-600
Some officials of Human Rights Watch privately: 100-350 by Dec. 2001 [http://www.commondreams.org/headlines02/0207-03.htm or http://wsjclassroomedition.com/tj_120401_casu.htm]
MEDIAN: 1,134-1,500

ESTIMATED TOTAL KILLED (12 Feb. 2005)
 -USA: 23
 -Taliban, Al Qaeda: 1,250-5,000 (Western Mail, Time)
 -POWs killed: 960-1,000 (Newsweek)
 -Northern Alliance: 500-2,000 (pure guess: @ 40% of opponents)
 -Civilians: 1,134-1,500 (median)
 TOTAL: ca. 3,900-9,500 k. to Summer 2002

(1134+1500)/2=1317 - direct civilian deathes
(10000+19840)/2=14.920 - deathes caused by USA military actions
Total civilian casualities in Auganistan: 16237
TOTAL: 1.791.787

Kosovo (1999)
NATO Bombing (1999):
 9 Feb. 2000 Slate, civilian deaths
  -Human Rights Watch: ca. 500; or specifically 488-527 ("confidently")
  -Serb propaganda: 1,200-5,000 ("stubbornly")

HRW: 500 civ. [http://www.hrw.org/press/2000/02/nato207.htm]

14 June 1999 Time: 5,000 military + 1,200 civilian = 6,200

4 Dec. 2001 WSJ: 500, citing Wm Arkin [http://wsjclassroomedition.com/tj_120401_casu.htm]

5 July 1999 AP: 1,200 civilians, citing Yugoslav state-run media

Ploughshares 2000: 500 civilians

11 July 1999 Washington Post
 -Official Serbian figures: 576 Serb military "casualties" (probably deaths)
 -NATO estimates: 5,000 to 10,000 Serb soldiers dead

TOTAL: 1,600 civilians and 1,000 military "casualties"

TOTAL: 1.793.387

Gulf War (1990-91)

Shortly after the war, the US Defense Intelligence Agency made a very rough estimate of 100,000 Iraqi deaths, and this order of magnitude is widely accepted -- even improved upon:
 -B&J: 50,000 to 100,000
 -Compton's: 150,000 Iraqi soldiers killed
 -World Political Almanac 3rd: 150,000 incl. civilians.
 -Our Times: 200,000.

Other authoritative sources working with more detailed data have come up with lower numbers:
The British govt. put the death toll at 30,000 (War Annual 6, 1994)

A May 1992 report by the US House Armed Services Committee estimated that 9,000 Iraqi soldiers were killed by the air campaign.

The PBS news show Frontline estimates 2300 civilians, 10-20,000 military in air war and, 10,000 military in the ground war; for a total of 27,300 ±5000.

29 April 1999 AP: 4,500 to 45,000
 -Civilian death toll is put at 2,500 by US and 35,000 by Iraqis
 -The US lost 147 killed in battle and 289 dead otherwise. The other Coalition members lost 92 dead.

Dict.Wars: 85,000 Iraqi and 240 Coalition soldiers.

Wm Arkin: 3,200 Iraqi civilians

Martin Gilbert:
 Coalition
 -USA: 145 k. in action and 121 k. in accidents.
 -UK: 24
 -Egypt: 10
 -UAE: 6
 Iraqis: at least 8,000 in battle, and 5,000 civilians

25 July 1991 The Gazette (Montreal), citing a Greenpeace report by Wm Arkin:
 Iraqi
  -Military: 100,000-120,000
  -Civilian: 62,400 to 99,400 (87% of dis./mal. after fighting stopped)
  -Post-war revolts in N + S Iraq: 30,000-100,000
  -Kuwaitis: 2,000-5,000
 Coalition
  -US: 145 KIA + 2 mortally wd. + 121 in accidents = 268
  -Allies: 77

 TOTAL: 345

8 Jan. 1992 Interpress, citing a later Greenpeace report by Arkin:
 Iraqis
  -Military: 72,500-118,000
  -Civilian: 2,500-3,000 in bombing + 49,000-56,000 from dis./mal in 1990-91
  -Post-war revolts in N + S Iraq: 102,000-150,000 civilians & rebels + 5,000 Iraqi soldiers

16 Feb. 2003 Pittsbugh Post-Gazette
 Iraqi soldiers killed
  -Beth Daponte / William Arkin: 56,000
  -Army War College: 10,000-20,000
  -John Heidenrich / John Mueller: 1,000-6,000
 Iraqi civilians killed
  -Daponte / Arkin: 3,500
  -Government of Iraq: 2,248
  -Army War College: 1,000-3,000
  -Heidenrich/Mueller: Fewer than 1,000
 Indirect civilian deaths
  -Daponte: 111,000

19 March 2004 NY Post
 Iraqi soldiers: 40,000
 Iraqi civilians: 2,300

Project on Defense Alternatives, 20 Oct. 2003
War dead
 Iraqi civilians: 3,500
 Iraqi military: 20,000 - 26,000
Post-war
 Anti-regime uprisings: 30,000 civilians + 5,000 military
 Health-related deaths: 60,000-100,000

MEDIAN
Direct civilian deaths: 2,625
Iraqi Soldiers: 25,000
Post-war
 Health-related deaths: ca. 80,000
 Uprisings: ca. 65,000 k., all sides, civ+mil

2.625+80.000+65.000=147.625. TOTAL: 1.941.012

[Raven_2]

Part 3 of USA crimes list.

Panama, US invasion (1989)
 B&J: 550

Chicago Tribune, 31 March 1993
 The documentary, The Panama Deception, "asserts that thousands of civilians were killed".
 However: "[N]o organization in Panama has been able to document more than the official estimates of about 500 deaths, including 300 civilians."

The Panama Deception: >4,000 civilians [http://www.informationclearinghouse.info/article4078.htm]

Chomsky (1991), civilian deaths:
 Official US: 202
 Physicians for Human Rights + Americas Watch: 300
 Exhumed graves: 600
 NY Times, 1 Apr. 1990: 673
 Costa Rican press citing human rights groups: >2,000
 Joint delegation of CODEHUCA + CONADEHUPA: 2,000 - 3,000
 Mexican press citing 2 Catholic bishops: 3,000

Marley
 USA: 23
 Pan. military: 297
 Civilians: 500
 TOTAL: 820

Our Times, citing Pentagon numbers
 USA: 23
 Pan. military: 57
 Civilians: 459
 TOTAL: 539

HRW: 300 civilians [http://www.hrw.org/reports/1991/panama/]

War Annual 4
 USA: 23
 Panamanian military: 293
 Civilians: up to 700
 TOTAL: up to 1016

Washington Post, 11 June 1992
Official Pentagon death toll:
 US: 23
 Panamanian military: 314
 Civilians: 202
 TOTAL: 539

Panama Human Rights Commission:
 Pan. military: 57
 Civilians: 183
 Undetermined: 83
 Disappeared: 80
 TOTAL: 403

AVERAGE (Civilian Death Toll) is 1,166.

TOTAL: 1.942.178

Grenada, US invasion (1983)
 USA: 18 (War Annual; Jan Rogozinski, A Brief History of the Caribbean, 1994) or 19 (Marley) or 42 (B&J)
 Cubans: 24 (War Annual; Rogozinski) or 25 (Marley) or up to 70 (B&J)
 Granadian military: 60 (War Annual) or 45 (Marley) or 16 (Rogozinski)
 TOTAL: 250 (B&J) or 102 (War Annual) or 89 (Marley) or 68 (Rogozinski)

(24+70)/2=47

TOTAL: 1.942.225

Vietnam War:
South Vietnam military
 185,000 to 225,000 (Britannica)
 220,357 (Lewy, Ency. Americana)
 223,748 (Summers; also 3 April 1995 AP)
 224,000 (Kutler, Olson)
 250,000 (Clodfelter, Grenville)
 254,257 (Wallechinsky)
 650,000 (Small & Singer)
 [MEDIAN: 224,000]
North Vietnamese military and Viet Cong
 444,000 (Ency. Americana)
 500,000 (S&S)
 660,000 (Olson)
 666,000 (Lewy, with the possibility that as many as 222,000 (1/3) of these were actually SVN civilians mistaken for VC)
 666,000 (Summers)
 700,000-1,000,000 (Wallechinsky)
 900,000 (Britannica; Grenville)
 1,000,000 (Clodfelter)
 1,100,000 (Tucker, Official VN [1954-75])
 [MEDIAN: 1,000,000]
South Vietnamese civilians
 250,000 (Olson)
 287,000 (Clodfelter = 247,600 war deaths + 38,954 assassinated by NLF)
 300,000 (Kutler; Summers)
 340,000 (Lewy's estimate, with the possibility that an additional 222,000 counted as VC (above) belong in this category)
 430,000 (The Sen. E. Kennedy Commission, according to Lewy, Olson)
 522,000 (Wallechinsky)
 1,000,000 (Britannica [in both North and South]; Eckhardt; Grenville)
 2,000,000 (Tucker, Official VN [N&S, 1954-75],)
 [MEDIAN: 1,500,000]
North Vietnamese civilians: 65,000 (Kutler, Lewy, Olson, Summers, Wallechinsky) by American bombing.
USA
 47,378 KIA + 10,799 other = 58,177 (Official US DoD, 1964-73)
 58,159 (Kutler)
 58,153 (Wallechinsky)
 58,000 (Britannica)
 47,244 KIA + 10,446 other = 57,690 (Olson; Summers, 1961-80)
 57,605 (Ency. Americana)
 56,146 (Lewy: 46,498 KIA + 10,388 other + 719 MIA)
 56,000 (S&S)
South Korea: 4,407 (Lewy, Olson, Summers); 4,687 (Wallechinsky); 5,000 (S&S)
Philippines: 1,000 (S&S)
Thailand: 351 (Lewy, Olson, Summers, Wallechinsky); 1,000 (S&S)
Australia: 469 (Lewy, Summers, Olson [w/NZ]); 492 (S&S); 494 (Wallechinsky); 520 (AWM)

TOTAL
1,216,000 (military only, S&S)
1,312,000 (Summers)
1,353,000 (Lewy)
1,520,453 (WHPSI: S. Vietnamese only, 1965-75)
1,637,000 (Olson)
1,721,000 (Kutler)
1,749,000 (Wallechinsky)
1,800,000 (B&J, 1960-75)
2,058,000 (Eckhardt)
2,163,000 (Britannica)
2,500,000 (Grenville)
3,000,000 (1965-75, Chomsky (1987))
>3,100,000 (Tucker; Official VN)
[MEDIAN of TOTALS: ca. 1,700,000] or [TOTAL of MEDIANS: ca. 1,300,000]

Misc. Atrocities:
 Lewy:
 36,725 civilians assassinated by VC/NVA, 1957-72
 2,800 civilians executed and 3,000 missing after Hue was captured by VC/NVA, 1968
 400 civilians massacred by USAns in the area of Son My village, incl. 175-200 in My Lai hamlet, 1968
 Because of the lack of weapons recovered from many bodies, Lewy considers the possibility that up to 222,000 VC KIA may have actually been innocent bystanders. (Or maybe not. Poor evidence either way.)
 Harff & Gurr: 475,000 civilians in NLF areas were victims of repressive politicide, 1965-72
 Young: Hue massacre, 1968:
 Officially: 2,800-5,700
 Len Ackland: 300-400
 Chomsky (1987): 21,000 VC civilian officials assassinated under US/GVN Phoenix project (-in text. Endnote gives estimates ranging 40-48,000.). Lewy considers these to be (mostly) legitimate military targets.
 October 22, 2003 Toledo Blade: Tiger Force (US) committed ongoing atrocities in Quang Nam province, July-Nov 1967. Incomplete records show 81 murders. The unit reported 1000+ enemies killed, but it sounds like a lot of those weren't legit. Rummel:
 90,000 democides by South Vietnam:
 1954-63: 39,000, incl. 24,000 dead in forced resettlement programs
 1963-75: 51,000, incl. 30,000 executions
 166,000 democides by NVN/VC in SVN:
 Officials assassinated: 17,000
 Civilians assassinated: 49,000
 Refugees killed, 1975: 50,000
 Misc: 50,000

At least 300 were murdered. > 1.500.000 civilians killed `cause of war that USA provocate. 65.000 killed due to bombing, so total for this is 65.300 for you (maybe 1.565.300?).

TOTAL: 2.072.825

There were also Korea war in 1950-1953 but I cannot find numbers of civilians killed by USA forces. According to North Korea, UsA killed > 150.000 civilians. But I don`t trust them.

So, the TOTAL is 2.072.825 civilians killed by USA wars (directly/indirectly). I don`t count number of people starved to death `cause of your foreign politics (keep your hands clean, yeah?) in Cuba, North Korea, Chili, Argentina and more and more.

Now, compare my total with yours:
63.083 (civilian and military) and 2.072.825 (civilians only)

So why you call USSR The Empire of Evil if you actualy live in one?

[Toad]

Wow, an ocean of bullshirt from Raven. I expected as much.

If you can't be honest, try to bury them with bullshirt.

I'm pretty busy but I'll give you a couple of examples.

First, Katyn. Not all the Polish POW's were murdered by the NKVD at Katyn. There were a couple of execution sites. I refer you once again to YOUR Chief Military Prosecutor, Alexander Savenkov.  Numbers given vary; the Poles claim 24,000+, the Russians have admitted...over and over again... to 21,000+ Polish POW's, unarmed, shot in the head by the NKVD. Well, not all Russians admit it... there's two that don't, you and Boroda.

....The massacre of more than 21,000 Polish officers and intellectuals by the Soviet secret police n 1940 was not genocide, Russia’s top military prosecutor said today.

“At Poland’s request, we thoroughly investigated these events,” Chief Military Prosecutor Alexander Savenkov said in Moscow.

The order for the massacre was signed by Soviet leader Josef Stalin, among others. Soviet agents shot 21,768 Polish military officers, intellectuals and priests who were taken prisoner when the Soviet Union invaded.

Historians in Poland believe Stalin ordered the killings to liquidate Poland’s elite and hinder the rebirth of a sovereign Polish state....

2. Deaths caused by Americans. Your tsunami of Bullshirt it mostly stuff like this:

Raven:  died as a result of malnutrition and disease caused by the international embargo imposed following the invasion of Kuwait

[/b]

Umm... did you note it said "international embargo"? Not "US embargo"? Further those numbers are disputed as wildly excessive.

You also put in combat deaths. Yes, we killed a lot of Iraqis when they refused to leave Kuwait.That's war; note I haven't said a thing about German troops the Russians killed in WW2; that's war. Yet you include combat deaths in the total.

Third and last for now because it's a busy day, you continue to show a total lack of knowledge about the Native American with respect to the US. When the US became a nation, there were not even 4 million Native Americans in what is now the US. Remember that at first, the US was much smaller than it is now. Secondly, most Native American deaths during the formation of the US were due to disease, smallpox in particular.

Your attempt to attribute the deaths of all Natives in the Americas to the US is laughable on several levels. The US did not exist until 1776. Most of the deaths you quote occurred long before that time and were in places far removed from what would eventually be the US, like Peru.

Your referencing of people like Stannard is a joke. Here's why:

...I find the estimates for Virginia even more awkward because I live here. Stannard estimates the population of Powhatan's Confederation at 100,000, yet there's not a single site in the Virginia Tidewater that remotely hints at the complex infrastructure necessary to support even half this number.

There's not one ruin of any permanent building. Artifacts of any kind are rare -- barely even a single burial mound worth pilfering. And it's not like there's some forgotten ghost town deep in the desert or jungle waiting to be discovered. This is Virginia. It's been settled, plowed and excavated for 400 years....

Consider the Powhatans of Virginia. As I mentioned earlier, Stannard cites estimates that the population was 100,000 before contact.

In the same paragraph, he states that European depredations and disease had reduced this population to a mere 14,000 by the time the English settled Jamestown in 1607.

Now, come on; should we really blame the English for 86,000 deaths that occured before they even arrived?

Note that's "English", not US....  you've watched too many Hollywood westerns.

The rest of your tsunami of BS is based on the same sort of trash.

The best part of your stuff is where you still refuse to admit to the murders like the Polish POW's.

It's good for the world to see this stuff.

The US has done some terrible stuff, like My Lai in Vietnam. The difference between the US and folks like you is that we admit it, punish the guilty and strive to make sure it never happens again.

You, on the other hand, deny incidents like Katyn for 60+ years after incontrovertible proof has been found and your own leaders have admitted to it.

Good for folks to remember that about you guys.

Well, that and the way you rewrite such interesting historical fiction. Like how the Evil Finns attacked the peaceful Russians.

[Raven_2]

Anyone here want me to further update this list with info from new sources?

USA was in ~200 conflicts till 1945, and this two millions from my posts is just a top of the iceberg...

About Korea and Vietnam wars:

<...>
"The attack upon Korea," Truman declared, "makes it plain beyond all doubt that communism has passed beyond the use of subversion to conquer independent nations and will now used armed invasion and war." An American advisor to South Korea's President Syngman Rhee, Robert T. Oliver, claimed, in contrast, that the United States itself had unwittingly provoked the attack, by declaring that South Korea lay outside our defense perimeter.

It must be noted, however, that armed struggle between North and South Korea had been going on since 1945, part of a Korean civil war, in which both the North and South were trying to unify the nation on their own terms.

Why did the United States become involved in the war? Domestic politics doubtless contributed to Truman's decision to intervene in Korea. His popularity had fallen sharply in the polls, and Republicans accused him of losing China to the communists.

<...>

Initially, America's objective in the war was to restore South Korea's border at the 38th parallel. But after a series of military victories over the North Koreans, an overconfident Truman launched a drive forward to liberate North Korea. Suddenly, a defensive war was transformed into an offensive war. The decision to carry the war into the North had momentous consequences. As Americans approached the Yalu River, Chinese intervened to prevent a perceived threat to Chinese security and proceeded to push Americans back to the 38th parallel.

The Korean war dragged on until 1952. The number of Americans killed in Korea - 54,246 - was nearly the same as in Vietnam, 56,146, but total casualties were actually higher in Korea: a million soldiers and two to three million civilians killed, compared to about one million in Vietnam.

http://www.digitalhistory.uh.edu/historyonline/con_korea.cfm

~3.500.000 civilians in both Vietnam and Korea - all becouse Truman popularity was need to be raised...

About Japan bombardment:

"Little Boy," exploded over Hiroshima on August 6, 1945, killed 130,000 people immediately (including a dozen U.S. POWs) and 200,000 within five years, all but some 20,000 of them civilians. Twenty-five square miles of civilization were gutted.[1]

"Fat Man," detonated over Nagasaki three days later, took another 70,000 lives immediately, and nearly double that over five years. All but 150 were civilians. There was no pretense of a military target.[2]

That's 50 World Trade Centers of people vaporized. As a percentage of Japan's 1945 population of 72 million, it was equivalent to 200 WTCs.
<....>
1. The Committee for the Compilation of Materials on Damage Caused by the Atomic Bombs in Hiroshima and Nagasaki, Hiroshima and Nagasaki: The Physical, Medical, and Social Effects of the Atomic Bombings, New York: Basic Books, 1981, p. 367.

2. Ibid., p. 345.

http://www.zmag.org/millerterror.htm

20.150 soldiers outweight 379.850 civilian deathes (and even deathes of U.S. PoWs) for USA government...

Same autor, about Korea War:

General Douglas MacArthur ordered that every "installation, factory, city, and village" be destroyed in much of the north. General Curtis LeMay reported that "over a period of three years or so ... we burned down every town in North Korea and South Korea, too."[4]

Three million civilians (from a Korean population of 30 million) died in that conflict, a large majority from American bombing.[5]

That's another 750 World Trade Centers dead, or 7125 WTCs as a percentage of population.
<...>
4. Both quotations are from Jon Halliday and Bruce Cumings, Korea: The Unknown War, NY: Pantheon Books, 1988, pp. 115-116.

5. Ibid., p. 200 (two million North Korean civilian deaths and one million South Korean). See also http://www.gliah.uh.edu/historyonline/con_korea.cfm (2-3 million civilian deaths).

...and Vietnam...

We employed the same murderous tactic--widespread and sustained assaults on the civilian population--in the Vietnam War and its extensions in Cambodia and Laos. U.S. forces dropped eight million tons of bombs--four times the entire Allied total of World War II. Eighty percent were dropped on areas--so-called "carpet bombing"--rather than individual targets. The region was immolated with 373,000 tons of napalm, dwarfing the 14,000 tons employed in the second world war.[6]

All told, we subjected the people of Indochina to 15 million tons of munitions with the combined explosive power of 600 Hiroshima-type atomic bombs. The result? A decade-long crime against humanity that killed another two to three million civilians.[7]

In the same part of the world, we supported the Indonesian generals who presided over the slaughter of a million of their people after a failed October 1965 coup attempt. The killings of alleged Communists and their families raged for months. The country's rivers became clogged with bodies.[8]

The U.S., however, was euphoric. Time magazine described the generals' ascension as "the West's best news for years in Asia," while the Johnson administration, according to the New York Times, expressed "delight."[9]
<...>
6. James Carroll, "The Shameful Context of Kerrey's Killings," Boston Globe, May 1, 2001 (citing Sven Lindqvist, A History of Bombing, NY: New Press, 2001). Online at http://www.commondreams.org/views01/0501-02.htm.

7. Civilians killed: http://www.zmag.org/chomsky/articles/z9507-memories.html (two million civilians killed in Vietnam; 600,000 in Cambodia).         All munitions: http://www.vietnam25.org/cost-of-war-f.html (citing Paul Shannon, "The ABC's of the Vietnam War," Indochina Newsletter, Asia Resource Center, Special Issue 93-97, 1996.

8. One million killed: Indonesia: An Amnesty International Report, London: Amnesty International, 1977, p. 12-13 (probably many more than one million people killed, while Indonesia admitted 500,000). John Stockwell, The Praetorian Guard: The U.S. Role in the New World Order, Boston: South End Press, 1991, p. 72-73 (New York Times estimated 0.5 to 1.5 million killed; Australian secret service estimated 2 million killed; the CIA estimated 800,000 killed). Some general sources on the slaughter: http://www.twf.org/News/Y1999/0915-Indonesia.html. http://dannyreviews.com/h/The_Indonesian_Killings.html. http://www.guardian.co.uk/comment/story/0,3604,530478,00.html.

9. Both quotations are from Malcolm Caldwell, "Lest We Forget," p. 16, in his edited collection Ten Years' Military Terror in Indonesia, Nottingham, U.K.: Spokesman Books, 1975 (citing the July 15, 1966 issue of Time, and an article by Max Frankel in the March 12, 1966 issue of the New York Times).

Toad, I can post citates about USA crimes forever. And all of them are from europian or american books.

This. Is. True. USA is at least equal to USSR by brutality it cause and civilians it killed.



And why I post all of that...

Did you still think of USSR like of source of all-the-world evil? WWII and Cold War were biggest slaughters in the worlds history, hell on earth, madness of the whole planet. There were no "good" or "bad". There were no "winners" or "loosers". Only millions of sensless deathes, caused by ALL countries at levels equal to they sizes and political weight (so, Germania, US and USSR are on the top of this bloody list).

To blame USSR only for 1939-1975 is ... not right. Reigan, Cherchil, Stalyn, Hitler, Mussoliny - all of them were complete bastards, all of them equaly guilty in this awful massacre.

So - we do not not decline our failures, and we don`t want to forget them. But, please, do the same with your own history. And - there is no more reasons to hate Russia as a part of ex-USSR, I assure you.

[Toad]

I love you guys.

The peace-lovink pipples of North Korea invaded South Korea to raise Truman's popularity!

You guys are SO funny!

[Toad]

Originally posted by Toad
I love you guys.

The peace-lovink pipples of North Korea invaded South Korea to raise Truman's popularity!

You guys are SO funny!

As I said, the difference between you and us is that you cannot admit some of the things you did and you will never apologize. You always have some Bullshirt excuse.... the Finns get to see it real clearly in this thread.

If only those Master Race Finns had not attacked the poor peace lovink pipples of the Soviet Union and tried to drive all the way to the sea of Okhotsk with their giant Finnish war machine!

[Raven_2]

to Toad

>>Wow, an ocean of bullshirt from Raven. I expected as much.

Ah. It`s a "bulshirt" from Times, Britanica, american historians and lot of others KGB workers...

>>Umm... did you note it said "international embargo"? Not "US embargo"? Further those numbers are disputed as wildly excessive.

"international embargo imposed following the invasion of Kuwait". If there was no USA-Iraq conflict than all of this people stay lived. Read more carefully.

>>Well, not all Russians admit it... there's two that don't, you and Boroda.

And not all americans/europians as well:

Katyn Massacre (April-May 1940):
 Dictionary of 20C World History: 14,000 Polish officers systematically killed. 4,500 bodies discovered by Germans.
 30 July 2000 Sunday Telegraph [London]: 15,000 k.
 Paul Johnson: 15,000 -- a third at Katyn, the rest in Sov. conc. camps.
 Gilbert: 15,000 Polish POWs sent to 3 camps - Starobelsk, Kozelsk, Ostashkov - all killed. 4,400 from Kozelsk killed at Katyn.

All of this idiots think the same.

>>....The massacre of more than 21,000 Polish officers and intellectuals by the Soviet secret police n 1940 was not genocide, Russia’s top military prosecutor said today.

Savenkov said only that thet were not genocide if you read carefully. Numbers are from journalists head. History books (and NKVD archives) contain number 4.500.

>>You also put in combat deaths.

I count only civilian deaths in TOTAL. Military deaths are here just to show how much blood are on USA hands at all, not only blood of innocents.

>>When the US became a nation, there were not even 4 million Native Americans in what is now the US.

Yeah. Sorry. I mean USA territory, not country. So there wasn`t USA who killed the indians. It was other civilized people from Europe.

>>Secondly, most Native American deaths during the formation of the US were due to disease, smallpox in particular.

Sure, there is no medics in reservation... It`s like don`t give them food and than say "They die from starving, not by our hands".

>>The rest of your tsunami of BS is based on the same sort of trash.

FCUK. When YOU saysomething, you requre argumentation, and I give it to you. When I say something that not in your history books, you say "It`s a trash". So who is brainwashed? There a lot of links on sources - none of them from USSR/Russia, but from USA/Europe - and still you don`t belive...

>>The best part of your stuff is where you still refuse to admit to the murders like the Polish POW's.

Sure, I accept. 4.500, not 24000, PoWs were murdered in Katyn by NKVD. But YOU still refuse even > 300.000 sensless deaths in Hirosima, not to mention millions of deths in Korea and Vietnam.

Maybe, they torture you with electricity at the school? Why you think, that USA history book for school is a dogma?

>>The US has done some terrible stuff, like My Lai in Vietnam.

My Lai (My Lie :-)) - 300 deaths. There were > 2.000.000 civilians killed in Vietnam cause of USA agression. You accept THIS?

[Raven_2]

to Toad

>>As I said, the difference between you and us is that you cannot admit some of the things you did and you will never apologize.

And you? WHAT ANOTHER EVIDIENCES YOU NEED TO BELIVE? Say it. I get it to you.

>>If only those Master Race Finns had not attacked the poor peace lovink pipples of the Soviet Union and tried to drive all the way to the sea of Okhotsk with their giant Finnish war machine!

Maybe you can say something about things I posted? Maybe YOU have evidiences that this is NOT true? So post them. Now you look like ignorant .... that read his own mantra "Americans-are-good-guys-we-never-kill-an-innocent". Prove it. Prove to the finns read this thread that this is I who lie here. Gimme the links to history books (not from USA, cause I wasn`t use russian sources in my posts), where things are differ. Prove your words, like I proove mine. Cause without prove you are only and ordinary zealous fanatic by your own state.