Author Topic: Question to Finns  (Read 25150 times)

Offline Toad

  • Plutonium Member
  • *******
  • Posts: 18415
Question to Finns
« Reply #210 on: March 13, 2005, 12:47:47 AM »
I had a lovely reply for you but it went beyond the limit for one post and in changing it I lost it all.

Anyway, a bit at a time.

Quote
Originally posted by Raven_2

You don`t answer on my question. If someone kills your wife and your son - what would you do? Sue this bastard or shot his brain out of his head?
[/b]

If I was THERE when he tried to kil them, I would try to kill him or die trying.

If I was NOT THERE when he tried to kill him, I would let the police investigate, catch and punish him.

Here is what I WOULD NOT DO:  I would not go and kill HIS wife and son.

However, that's the equivalent of what the Soviet Army did to the German civilians.

The Soviets defeated the German armies they faced; that's a good thing. Then the performed the equivalent of "killing his wife and son" which was barbaric. They sank to the same level of barbarity as the Nazis.

Think on it; eventually you figure it out.

Quote
Originally posted by Raven_2
Nazi wasn`t barbaric.  They were over-civilized, not barbaric. They thinked they are above all others. Americans now think the same...
[/b]

Please explain to me how the "Final Solution" (you know.. roundups, trains, Auschwitz, Dachau, Treblinka) was not barbaric? Explain how that was over-civilized.

And American's think like the Nazis? We think we are the "Master Race"?  You must drink from Boroda's cup.
If ye love wealth better than liberty, the tranquility of servitude than the animated contest of freedom, go from us in peace. We ask not your counsels or arms. Crouch down and lick the hands which feed you. May your chains sit lightly upon you, and may posterity forget that you were our countrymen!

Offline Raven_2

  • Parolee
  • Copper Member
  • **
  • Posts: 247
Question to Finns
« Reply #211 on: March 13, 2005, 01:01:42 AM »
to Fishu

>>A revenge somehow makes it better? a revenge against people who had nothing to do with it?

Faschists has nothing to do with slavyan butchering? They burn vilages - with families inside houses.

>>How many of the elderly people killed a russian wife or son?

Berlin was defended by 14 years old kids and oldmans. Kids. With guns in their hands. What should Soviet troops do?

>>How many of the abused women in Berlin killed a russian wife or son?

And how many abused woman was killed by Soviet troops? Tell me.

BTW, how many of american citiziens was killed by serbs kids?

>>A bloody revenge against unknown people does no good, it only creates more hatred and the opposing side will also seek for a revenge.

Why don`t you say the same to USA? Is Hirosima has any sense?

And how many Afganistan people die for 9/11? All of them was terrorists? Including kids and womans?

Hate has no particular aim. Soviet people hate *all* faschists. And after 9/11 americans hate all arabs. Does Soviet troops need to talk with each german before shot? It was a *war*, not a picknik.

And still no one wasn`t gave me direct answer on my question. Do you shot him? Or sue him?

Offline Toad

  • Plutonium Member
  • *******
  • Posts: 18415
Question to Finns
« Reply #212 on: March 13, 2005, 01:09:27 AM »
Quote
Originally posted by Raven_2
I know only that polak nation is exist, and indian is no more. Numbers not equal? Bah. You slaughter/destroy *nation*, not bunch of people.
[/b]


Then you once again prove you don't know very much. The Native Americans were never a "nation"; they were independent tribes that engaged in warfare with each other.

They were not wiped out either. There are 336 Federally recognized tribal entities in the US.

Federally Recognized Indian Tribes

Beyond that, the Poles only exist as an independent entity because they finally broke free of Russia in the '90's.

Finally, you still can't show any slaughter of the Indians on a level with what the NKVD did to surrendered Polish prisoners. The worst Indian massacre was either Sand Creek or Wounded Knee; about 200 killed at each. That was in the 1870's when the US admittedly treated Native Americans as sub-humans.

Katyn was in 1940, when the Nazi and the Soviets were treating Poles as sub-humans.

Quote
Originally posted by Raven_2
ILOL 8-) Poland "defend" was already dead to 1943. Fight, huh... Sit on their tulips and waiting for help...
[/b]

Poland's defense was dead when the Soviets stabbed them in the back while the Poles were fighting Nazis to their front. You know Nazis.. the guys the Soviets hated so much that they had a secret treaty with them to divide Poland with them.

Poland surrendered in October 1939; why did the NKVD kill Polish POW's in March of 1940?

Quote
Originally posted by Raven_2

Nagasaki. Hirosima. 300.000 civilians killed. Japan military strengh was already destroed. But USA wanted to show the world they nuclear weapons. Bloody bastards...
[/b]

Unlike the Poles that the Soviets murdered, the Japanese had not surrendered. The war was still going on and like it or not both cities had military targets.

It's sure not like lining up a POW with his hands tied and shooting him in the back of the head with a Makarov.

Further, casualty estimates for an invasion of Japan were over 1 million for the allies and MORE than that for the Japanese. So which was better?

Quote
Originally posted by Raven_2

... and still denie. Yeltsin was a pice of ****, not legitime president. This *****g bastard could say *anything* that West want to hear.
[/b]

You do drink from the same cup as Boroda.

It wasn't only Yeltsin the admitted the NKVD killed the Poles. It was also Gorbachev and Putin.

Most recently it was Chief Military Prosecutor Alexander Savenkov,  said Friday "The massacre of more than 21,000 Polish officers and intellectuals by the Soviet secret police in 1940 was not genocide, Russia’s top military prosecutor said today.

Good to know it wasn't genocide though.. just good old fashioned murder.

Quote
Originally posted by Raven_2
... Free election in the country with destroed economics and infrastructure, with thousands of dead childrens... Sure, it was "liberation"...
[/b]

The economy and infrastructure of both Afghanistan and Iraq are being rebuilt far better than they ever were. This is particularly true of Afghanistan which really suffered under Russian occupation.

Show proof that the US killed thousands of children. Let's see it. It's just more typical Pravda BS.

Quote
Originally posted by Raven_2

And don`t you told me that Iraq now has free elections. There is no TV censoure for Iraq news in our country, like in yours, so we see what really happens with Iraq now.
[/b]

I won't tell you. Do a web search and look at how many parties ran for election in Afghanistan or Iraq. Far more than the ONE allowed under Russian occupation.

Further look at the UN's report on those elections.. and the UN isn't too fond of the US.

Lastly, ask yourself why, if we "rigged" the Iraq elections, that Allawi came in last? The Shiites and Kurds were the two biggest winners. If we rigged it, why didn't Allawi win?

Keep talking though.. it's good for all to see that there are still Stalinists around.
If ye love wealth better than liberty, the tranquility of servitude than the animated contest of freedom, go from us in peace. We ask not your counsels or arms. Crouch down and lick the hands which feed you. May your chains sit lightly upon you, and may posterity forget that you were our countrymen!

Offline Raven_2

  • Parolee
  • Copper Member
  • **
  • Posts: 247
Question to Finns
« Reply #213 on: March 13, 2005, 01:10:47 AM »
to Toad

>>And American's think like the Nazis? We think we are the "Master Race"? You must drink from Boroda's cup.

Death of american citiezen equal for you to a death of Iraq citizen? To the death of russian citizen? Their lifes are equal for you? You dessanted to Iraq with the words "We come in peace, mthfckrs" and bombed away all country, killing natives and torture them in prisons.

>>Please explain to me how the "Final Solution" (you know.. roundups, trains, Auschwitz, Dachau, Treblinka) was not barbaric? Explain how that was over-civilized.

I mean they were not barbaric by motivations. Nationalism is a baby of europian culture. And situation in USA are equal to situation in pre-war Germany. There is no faschist party in USA, thought. For now...

And say to me: what you think about bombarding Hirosima? Was it right? Was it not barbaric? Katyn is a baby toy comparing to that.

Offline Raven_2

  • Parolee
  • Copper Member
  • **
  • Posts: 247
Question to Finns
« Reply #214 on: March 13, 2005, 01:51:19 AM »
to Toad

>>Then you once again prove you don't know very much. The Native Americans were never a "nation"; they were independent tribes that engaged in warfare with each other.

And maybe you say to me that there is no such things as asian culture, only Japan, China, Korea, Mongolia cultures? Each by their own? And there is no african culture at all? So, you said, there is no Indian culture and indian nation at all, only "independent tribes", yes?

>>They were not wiped out either. There are 336 Federally recognized tribal entities in the US.

LOL. If there would 10.000 americans alive - can you say that american culture still exist?

>>The worst Indian massacre was either Sand Creek or Wounded Knee; about 200 killed at each.

Americans don`t have cassete bombs at that time, I suppose. If you had it, you wiped out all indians in two weeks, yes?

>>Poland's defense was dead when the Soviets stabbed them in the back while the Poles were fighting Nazis to their front.

Ouh. If this not happened, then brave polaks was stoped faschist invasion to USSR, yes? :-)

>>Unlike the Poles that the Soviets murdered, the Japanese had not surrendered.

They surrender the day after! *Not because of bombing*! Their army was dead. There was no reason to bobm them. It`s a like one boxer slain another with a knive after knockauting them. Butchering.

So, if you bombard Japan two days later, then this fact would be a most cruel action is WWII. But if goes in time - there is no blame for you for butchering, yes? 8-()

And you bombard CIVILIANS! Why you blame Soviet for killing German civilians then? Your nation slaughter (I mean, melted) much more of them.

>> It was also Gorbachev and Putin.

If one president say this, others must accept this. Main rule of foreign politic.

>>The economy and infrastructure of both Afghanistan and Iraq are being rebuilt far better than they ever were.

Yeah, `till they have oil to pay you for repair destruction you did...

>>This is particularly true of Afghanistan which really suffered under Russian occupation.

LOL

>>Do a web search and look at how many parties ran for election in Afghanistan or Iraq.

Yes, they exist. They even exist in election list. But they never be ellected till USA forces are in the country.

>>Further look at the UN's report on those elections.. and the UN isn't too fond of the US.

You forgot about sues of UN workers for "oil for food" program? UN discredited itself in the eyes of most europian counties.

>>Show proof that the US killed thousands of children. Let's see it.

http://www.boston.com/news/world/middleeast/articles/2003/11/12/british_group_puts_iraq_casualty_toll_at_21700_to_55000/

On 12 november 2003 there was 13500-45000 civil casualities. Even if 10% of them are childrens - then it more than thousand. And when USA drop cassete bombs on Iraq, I think they not aim to mans older than 30 only.

Now casualities is much more 50000, I suppose. So, there is about 5000-10000 of dead childrens (10%-20% of society). Some of them was killed directly. Others die cause of injury (USA destroy most of the hospitals in Iraq).

[EDIT]

http://www.iraqbodycount.net/names.htm

>> At least 618 of the dead whose ages are known were less than 18 years old, and 64 were babies no more than two years old.

It`s only named and identified. Now found ~15.000 by this site opinion (found, not total). Identificated - 2,737.  25% of all identificated bodies - childrens. So whole  number of found childrens is about 15000*25%=3750.

Also check this: http://www.iraqbodycount.net/editorial_feb0704.htm

And take this one too:

Quote

So far, in the "war on terror" initiated since 9-11, the USA and its allies have been responsible for over 13,000 civilian deaths, not only the 10,000+ in Iraq, but also 3,000+ civilian deaths in Afghanistan, another death toll that continues to rise long after the world's attention has moved on.

Elsewhere in the world over the same period, paramilitary forces hostile to the USA have killed 408 civilians in 18 attacks worldwide (see Table 1). Adding the official 9-11 death toll (as of October 29th 2003) brings the total to just under 3500.


Liberation, you said, yeah?

>>For each civilian killed by "terrorists" on and since 9-11, the USA and its allies have brought about almost four non-combatant, civilian deaths in return.

A blind barbarian rage?

You ask me why I compare americans and nazi? Take this:

>><...>At the heart of all these tactics is an implicit double standard which values the life of a Westerner – whose death is always worth recording and investigating – far above the life of an Arab or Asian, whose death is of scant interest or concern.

>>Howard Dean, who is dubbed by some commentators as an "anti-war" candidate for the presidency, distinguished himself in a speech in Iowa on November 3rd by saying: "There are now almost 400 people dead who wouldn't be dead if that resolution hadn't been passed and we hadn't gone to war."

>>The implication of Dean's statement (that only the 400 killed coalition forces are "people", and that therefore the thousands of killed Iraqis are sub-human and not worthy of mention), should bar him from ever holding office in any civilised nation.


Killing of german civilians wasn`t right?

>>Just one Iraqi civilian death is horrible blood on our hands given that the attack on Iraq appears to have been based on a lie. Yes, Saddam Hussein killed thousands of his own people. But an American massacre does not make things right.

And your words were:
>>Then the performed the equivalent of "killing his wife and son" which was barbaric. They sank to the same level of barbarity as the Nazis.

Americans is the same level of barbarity as Saddam was. It`s by your own words.
« Last Edit: March 13, 2005, 05:05:09 AM by Raven_2 »

Offline Siaf__csf

  • Gold Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 2213
Question to Finns
« Reply #215 on: March 13, 2005, 01:58:31 AM »
Raven referring to your post to me:

You have lived in USSR. Obviously you _should_ know how life down there was/is. Now unless you belonged to the little party puppy group with access to supplies outside general market, your comment sounds questionable.

You see, I live in the west. I'm used to the western standard of living. And guess what? When I visited your country and the countries your country annexed during WW2, I can compare the standard of living and wealth of the people directly to eachothers.

And I can only say that the standard of living dropped to 20% the very second I passed over the border. In fact when I passed the soviet border for the first time I couldn't believe my eyes. I thought dirt and pollution would automatically travel past a line drawn to the map. So I was perplexed to see that immediately on the other side of the border the ground and the buildings were covered with unimaginable amount of dirt. It was literally like stepping to an alternate reality.

Now maybe you got used to your substandard quality of living. Maybe _you_ have no idea about the standard of living westerners have. But one thing I can say for sure; I'd never want to spend one moment back there without 100% guarantee I can get the shreck out of there.

In fact I disliked the poverty and filth there so much that I've declined any further invitations for trips there. My wife never visited and would like to go but I told her it's not worth the risk with all the crime. I refuse to go there again.

I hear that things are progressing down there anyway. From what people have told me, your nation has developed a lot from the sad state it was during the communist rule. Still, you have one of the worst (if not the worst) corrupt political / socioeconomical systems on the planet which is reason enough to avoid going there. You can't trust even the police, they ticket you for non-existent speeding or whatever reason they find to gain money to themselves. For a speeding ticket of $15, you can pay $5 directly to the policeman (no receipt) and he lets you go. What's that called..hmm.
« Last Edit: March 13, 2005, 02:03:29 AM by Siaf__csf »

Offline Raven_2

  • Parolee
  • Copper Member
  • **
  • Posts: 247
Question to Finns
« Reply #216 on: March 13, 2005, 02:21:34 AM »
to Siaf__csf

>> Now unless you belonged to the little party puppy group with access to supplies outside general market, your comment sounds questionable.

My parents work on factory 15 years ago. Both of them have free higher education (father have two). We had free medicine. We had free - our own, given by factory - flat. After perestroika they changed many works. Now ma is an auditor in huge international company. Dad is an technical director of one of the ports. Their total salary is about 3000$ per month. You can live in Russia on 150$ in month (50$ on food, 50$ on rent and 50$ on all others). So, yes, my parents can be called rich. And most of our friends too. But no one of them belong to "party group" or something like that. They work hard - and this is all. Economics here is growing.

>>When I visited your country and the countries your country annexed during WW2, I can compare the standard of living and wealth of the people directly to eachothers.

I don`t decline this. It was a run with a whole world at other side. Most of resources goes into military cause of cold war. But now things changes.

>>Maybe _you_ have no idea about the standard of living westerners have.

I`ve been in China and Japan. I live insouth-east part of Russia, it`s > 10.000 km from Europe. China is much worser than Russia (except Pekin). Japan is suburb jungles.

>>My wife never visited and would like to go but I told her it's not worth the risk with all the crime.

For 21 year here there was no any criminal accidents. I wasn`t robed, beaten or something like that. It`s amyth. In fact,there is much more criminals inUSA (statisticaly 2% of whole nation are in prisons at USA).

>>I hear that things are progressing down there anyway.

As I see, they rise up.
« Last Edit: March 13, 2005, 02:27:25 AM by Raven_2 »

Offline Siaf__csf

  • Gold Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 2213
Question to Finns
« Reply #217 on: March 13, 2005, 04:58:50 AM »
Raven China can't be called a part of the west if that was what you were implying to.

Things may be very different if you live on the east coast of russia. I've never been there, I only have knowledge of the western part of your country (and ex-parts naturally.)

And I can tell that the crime levels are extremely high and tourists are routinely targeted by professional crime.

There have been cases where travel agencies refused to continue trips to the border cities because the tourists got robbed the instant they stood out of the bus.

Now I don't outright hate russian people, I know a few and my friends friend is even married to one. It just blows my brain when someone like Boroda tries to claim black is white and vice versa.

The thing that I do hate in russia is the corruption of the government, the level of crime (that goes along with poverty) and the sorry fact that many people down there haven't discovered the meaning of deodorant.

I used to work as a security guard in a big shopping complex when I was in my twenties and we always got special alerts when a russian bus entered the parking lot - or gypsies came to the store. Even though there was special surveillance there was always clothes and other merchandise missing after the visits.

The best case I remember was finding three hangers and alarm patches ripped off from $1000 suits in the dressing booth. I guess a $1000 suit is still a $1000 suit even if it has a hole big as a coin in the front from ripping the alarm device.

Offline Raven_2

  • Parolee
  • Copper Member
  • **
  • Posts: 247
Question to Finns
« Reply #218 on: March 13, 2005, 05:22:14 AM »
>>Raven China can't be called a part of the west if that was what you were implying to.

Yes, I know :-) But I think you talk about any foreigh country.

>>The thing that I do hate in russia is the corruption of the government, the level of crime (that goes along with poverty)

Well, Yeltsin has popularity raiting of 0% before his second election. Many of russian people really hate our own government :-( With Putin things goes somewhat better. Crime level drop dramticaly with each year. In 90-95 criminals were everywere, like marauders at war 8-| Maybe you was in Russia at that time?

>>we always got special alerts when a russian bus entered the parking lot

:-( I feel sorry for this idiots. But not so far ago there was no legal way to change rubles to $. Every russian tourist had only ~20$ from governemnt, no more. He cann`t transport his own money to another country. So, maybe, this was the main reason for strealing.

Offline Siaf__csf

  • Gold Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 2213
Question to Finns
« Reply #219 on: March 13, 2005, 05:40:08 AM »
Raven this was after the exchange was legalized. I can verify this because one guy who I caught stealing a hat immediately opened his wallet and offered to pay the item.

He kept repeating "I pay I pay" and he had about $800 in his wallet in notes.

If I knew russian I'd ask him why did he have to destroy the hat, rip the electronic alarm off and try to steal if he could afford to pay it. I was just dumbfounded.

Offline Raven_2

  • Parolee
  • Copper Member
  • **
  • Posts: 247
Question to Finns
« Reply #220 on: March 13, 2005, 06:01:29 AM »
to Siaf__csf

>>I can verify this because one guy who I caught stealing a hat immediately opened his wallet and offered to pay the item.

8-| Cleptomanic bastard, I suppose.

Offline mora

  • Gold Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 2351
Question to Finns
« Reply #221 on: March 13, 2005, 06:02:39 AM »
Yep, it happens all the time. There was even a case where there was an alarm removal tool for communal use of the Russians hidden in the ceiling of a dressing booth in a department store.

Offline Raven_2

  • Parolee
  • Copper Member
  • **
  • Posts: 247
Question to Finns
« Reply #222 on: March 13, 2005, 06:38:46 AM »
to mora

>>Yep, it happens all the time. There was even a case where there was an alarm removal tool for communal use of the Russians hidden in the ceiling of a dressing booth in a department store.

So there was an immigrants, not tourists, yeah? But then why you blame all russian for that? After they cross russian-finish border and became new finish citizien it`s your sht, not ours. Emigrants are ex-russians, no-more-russians for me. Bastards, that leave their former home in searching for "better life". There is no place for such bastards in my country, so emigration of such .. people .. is a good thing for our society, I suppose :-)

Offline mora

  • Gold Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 2351
Question to Finns
« Reply #223 on: March 13, 2005, 06:49:12 AM »
Quote
Originally posted by Raven_2
So there was an immigrants, not tourists, yeah? But then why you blame all russian for that? After they cross russian-finish border and became new finish citizien it`s your sht, not ours. Emigrants are ex-russians, no-more-russians for me. Bastards, that leave their former home in searching for "better life". There is no place for such bastards in my country, so emigration of such .. people .. is a good thing for our society, I suppose :-)


No it's not the immigrants, but the tourists that come here in their buses. They actually have a nice business model. On the way here they smuggle booze and on the way back they take clothes etc. Of course the people who steal are a small minority, but it's a significant problem in Helsinki at least. I've actually bought quite a few bottles from them back in the day.

In general the Russian shopping tourists are a positive thing, and the the fact that some are stealing happens doesn't outweigh the positives.

I don't think the immigrants really do any notable amount of stealing.
« Last Edit: March 13, 2005, 06:52:02 AM by mora »

Offline Raven_2

  • Parolee
  • Copper Member
  • **
  • Posts: 247
Question to Finns
« Reply #224 on: March 13, 2005, 06:56:07 AM »
to mora

>>I don't think the immigrants really do any notable amount of stealing.

Um. Only russian do steal in the shops? Or other tourists as well?