Author Topic: Who is to blame? (Read 2150 times)

Gunslinger · « **Reply #60 on:** August 07, 2005, 09:20:08 PM »

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Raider179 · « **Reply #61 on:** August 08, 2005, 12:33:51 AM »

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Originally posted by BUG_EAF322
Just look at the pic of that kid.

i would rather die than that kid should die
young life is always more important than ur own adult life

no matter what

guess the swat team wanted to be home before 17:00

sigh

I guess you just don't have firm grasp on how it is in the states.

If your world, it would be worth it if 5 or 6 cops died to keep that baby alive. Thats your view. Those officers have families too with kids or do you just think they dont matter? man its low to judge them for this. Picture yourself in the same situation and tell me you wouldnt want to go home to your wife/kids....idiot

BUG_EAF322 · « **Reply #62 on:** August 08, 2005, 03:36:49 AM »

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what i say ??

they should go home proud that day they survived.

some 19 months old baby is just unimportant.

She shouldnt have a criminal daddy its her fault .

idiot

BUG_EAF322 · « **Reply #63 on:** August 08, 2005, 03:38:40 AM »

Yeah im glad i do not have an idea how its in the states.

Maybe in the future when everybody can walk around with a gun.

u never know.

its a precious life something to be saved

prayers for her

damn im not religious

i have 1 kid with the similar age she is worth everything offcourse the main blame is on that father.

But gawd those cops should know how to deal with those situations.

lazs2 · « **Reply #64 on:** August 08, 2005, 08:24:55 AM »

Huh? A hostage or inocents life is forfiet if they are used by a madman as a sheild?

I have stated that there is a fine line... this guy was shooting and endangering more and more people (not just cops) I think that everything should have been done to take him out before he injured or killed even more innocents. killing his child is trajic I hope that all possible care to make sure that didn't happen was taken..

Now for sandie...

"Yeah, it's tragic, but IMHO it's a whole helluva lot worse if someone's father or mother dies.

This isn't about remorse. It's about establishing blame. Some would blame the police. I sure as hell don't. The full blame belongs to the bellybutton clown that used his own child as a shield. He made that choice, not the police.

Same goes for Waco. Those clowns made that choice as well."

What a load of crap.. If anyone on this planet is truly innocent and full of potential it is a child... How we are as humans is defined by how we treat the innocent... the killing of a child is much worse than a father or mother. I don't blame the police unless it comes out they were careless...see above... As for waco... you got to be kidding? No one was in danger except the danger the government storm troopers created. The government stormed the house and then when they got blown away they killed everyone in the place including allmost 39 innocent children. At ruby ridge the same thing... the government caused the problem and then killed women and children for no reason. You make it sound like the people at ruby ridge and waco have the right to forfiet childrens lives... The lives are not theirs to forfiet... not their or the cops.

The only reason to take a chance with an innocents life is if other lives are in danger and I don't mean those who are hired on to take those risks.

lazs

Maverick · « **Reply #65 on:** August 08, 2005, 09:33:55 AM »

Laz,

The nutjobs at Waco had every oportunity to talk it out or if they were really determined to die in place, send their kids out. They were the only ones holding the kids in those buildings.

I'm not saying the Feds did it right, but I don't think the Feds are responsible for the "parents" lack of common sense for not getting the kids out or to a safe location so they could fight to the last breath to contest a warrant.

Sandman · « **Reply #66 on:** August 08, 2005, 10:04:45 AM »

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Originally posted by lazs2

What a load of crap.. If anyone on this planet is truly innocent and full of potential it is a child... How we are as humans is defined by how we treat the innocent... the killing of a child is much worse than a father or mother.

I'm not talking about killing. I'm talking about death. No one depends on that innocent child.

It's all tragic no matter who dies, but as a father I know full well that my death would adversely affect my family in many ways that the death of one of my children could not.

So... if I have nutjob and his child on the left and a police officer with a family on the right and I have to pick one to die, I'm going with the former.

It's tragic when a child dies, no question... but I put more value in the lives of the parents than their children.

BUG_EAF322 · « **Reply #67 on:** August 08, 2005, 11:22:41 AM »

i wouldnt wanna survive my kid.
they could do without me when it has to.

but that is another situation.

i enjoyed life had all my chances no way i have more right to live.

it really sounds ego trippin here.

They should have done everything to save the life of that kid.
like trying to calm down the situation and talk.

i doubt that.

Ripsnort · « **Reply #68 on:** August 08, 2005, 11:53:43 AM »

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Originally posted by BUG_EAF322
i wouldnt wanna survive my kid.
they could do without me when it has to.

but that is another situation.

i enjoyed life had all my chances no way i have more right to live.

it really sounds ego trippin here.

They should have done everything to save the life of that kid.
like trying to calm down the situation and talk.

i doubt that.

Try calming a situation down when a cocaine-frenzied perpetrator. Until then, I would probably hold comment until you are in situations as these police officers are...Mav was a cop, and I trust his comments on the situation.

BUG_EAF322 · « **Reply #69 on:** August 08, 2005, 01:01:26 PM »

ofcourse he was flipped but he would need food or sleep in the end.

he was alone

i bet there us policeman who think the same.

lazs2 · « **Reply #70 on:** August 08, 2005, 02:18:51 PM »

agree with bug... I don't want to survive my kids. Sandie... what are you talking about? are you putting a monetary value on human life? I don't care about that. I care about an innocent child more than an adult who has options.

mav... the people at waco were wrong... the storm troopers and the adults in the building. It matters not... the children were innocent and there was no need to escalate anything since the people inside were contained and neutralized and could hurt no one at that point. They could have been talked or waited out to save the children. The people at waco may have been religious nuts but they had committed no crime untill storm trooping ninjas tried to sneak up on em through the windows with no warning.

They committed no crime to deserve their treatment. Why did it even happen in the first place?

How would you guys explain ruby ridge tho?

lazs

crowMAW · « **Reply #71 on:** August 08, 2005, 02:22:22 PM »

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Originally posted by Maverick
The decision to wait out or not depends on the negotiations.

According to the LAPD, negociations were still ongoing when the SWAT team decided to pursue the perp into the building rather than retreating to safety and allow negociations to continue.

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Originally posted by Maverick
Clue for you, it's way different in the real world where things happen that you cannot control.

Seems very easy to control whether or not you persue or not. It seems very easy to consider where your bullets may land. And if the cops, and especially the SWAT team, do not have the metal capacity to think about those things under stress or under fire, they need to find other work or training needs to be modified so that they can learn how. I am not trying to be mean about that...I'm just indicating that they are unsafe when their primary concern should be the public's safety.

Mav...I assume you are a LEO. Do you consider what is behind your target when you fire your weapon or do you just blindly fire and worry about the consequences later?

Let me ask you hypothetically...if I as a private citizen with a conceal/carry permit had been assaulted by Mr. Pena who was holding a pistol and his kid, but when I drew my weapon he fled. If I had an opportunity to retreat but instead pursued and shot and killed his kid while shooting at him, what charges would be filed against me? The prosecutor would have a field day with me asking why I chose to pursue rather than retreat when I had the opportunity. So if I as a private citizen would be held to the higher standard of having to think about the consequences of my actions, why would't officers who have more training than I?

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Originally posted by Maverick
Perhaps something like dear old dad telling the negotiator that he's through talking and he's going to kill the kid and himself as soon as he hangs up. Yep waiting would be real productive there. I'd just about put money that that was what happened.

Leading to the same outcome...WTG! But what other outcome could the officers expect when 11 of them fired a total of 60 rounds at Pena and his hostage. Could they really expect that they would not have killed the hostage?

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Originally posted by Maverick
If you had any experiance you would know that there won't be any link to a "police report" as it is going to be a situation that is litigated.

Actually I do, having sat on the side of the government at crimial trials and regulatory hearings many times. However, Gunslinger was intimating that he had read the report, so I was asking him to put it up.

lazs2 · « **Reply #72 on:** August 09, 2005, 08:23:03 AM »

yep... sorta like janet reno saying she had to kill all those children to save em.

In my opinion... if the guy is endangering more lives with his behavior (not police lives) or you really think that he is gonna kill the hostages real quick like.... You can take some chances with the hostages life... but... unlike the sensitive liberals here... I feel a childs life is worth more than an adults.

lazs

Sandman · « **Reply #73 on:** August 09, 2005, 09:43:12 AM »

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Originally posted by lazs2
agree with bug... I don't want to survive my kids. Sandie... what are you talking about? are you putting a monetary value on human life? I don't care about that. I care about an innocent child more than an adult who has options.

I'm talking about dependence.

BUG_EAF322 · « **Reply #74 on:** August 09, 2005, 09:48:08 AM »

looking at the pic of Sandy it really makes me upset.

Such a beauty of a cute baby.
She really didnt deserve an end like that.
I wish she still could be hugged and loved.

i hope there is some relief for her soul and her family.