Originally posted by HoHun
Hi Badboy,
>However, if you assume a roughly concentric attack, the Spitfire's small turn radius advantage almost certainly won't be enough to allow him to pull lead for a shot.
Hm, I see no reason why it shouldn't. Falling back decreases the angles in the gun sight, after all.
>If I were the 109F driver fighting under the conditions shown in that diagram I wouldn't be concerned about an over shoot.
Well, it closing at all means that the angles in the gun sight increase, making a shot more difficult.
Maybe there is a way to graph this in terms of relative angle over time? You know I have always been dissatisfied with the typical manoeuvring diagrams without being able to come up with something better myself :-)
Regards,
Henning (HoHun)
While the angles decrease, there is no change to the fact that the Spitfire is already turning as tight as possible, meaning that the pilot cannot readily "pinch" it in to gain lead without negative consequence, usually in the form of sudden wing drop. When that happens, he must ease off the stick and reduce bank angle to recover. That only increases his troubles as he must then re-establish his maximum turning bank/angle. In the meanwhile, the 109 has continued around the circle and will rapidly work its way into the Spitfire's rear hemisphere. If the Spitfire continues turning in the same direction, the 109 can simply pull nose high to cut the corner and get a guns solution. If the Spitfire pilot reverses his turn, he will inevitably find that he will be crossing in front of the 109 and the resulting consequence is usually fatal.
Because the 109F-4 has marked advantage in climb rate over the Spitfire Mk.V, any time it appears that the Spitfire pilot is pinching his turn, the 109 pilot simply pulls his nose above the horizon. At the absolute limit, the SpitV cannot follow. He must ease off his turn considerably or risk an immediate accelerated stall. If that should happen the fight will be over in short order.
The problem for the Spitfire pilot is this: He must gain a guns solution before the fight degrades to a low speed lufberry. Once in a sustained turn, the Spitfire Mk.V is at distinct disadvantage against the 109F-4. A smart 109F pilot will attempt to establish a lufberry, where he can take full advantage of the 109's faster turn rate and superior climb. In most cases, the Spitfire will not enter the lufberry close to the 109's six o'clock, meaning that his chances to obtain a guns solution will be minimal. Even flying intersecting circles cannot promise the Spitfire an opportunity if the 109 pilot is alert. Again, he can force the fight "up hill" and neutralize that opportunity.
I have some films that demonstrate the above quite clearly.
If the reader follows the entire thread, he will discover that the 109F-4 does have some weaknesses that may be exploited by a skilled pilot. But even with that factored in, a dogfight beginning with equal pilots, E and altitude will probably be won by the 109F-4.
Understand that I'm not arguing that the current flight model is historically accurate. All I'm stating is that this is how it currently exists and it can be exploited to the extent that the 109F-4 is currently one of the best pure dogfighters in the game. Unless you are flying a Zero or perhaps a Hurricane, you simply cannot expect to beat the 109F-4 in a low-speed brawl. If the 109F pilot is better than you to begin with, the fight will be short and futile. Therefore, if you can identify the 109 as an F model, avoid trying to turn with it.
My regards,
Widewing
