Ram model needs changing

[Connery]

I understand perfectly well what LAG is, I am a semi-professional counterstrike player so I understand lag/choke/loss and other associated network deficiences which can cause poor performance or differing result.

The point is HTC have created a collision model which is definately not perfect, I know cos when I still played this game I knew full well there were times when I had collided with someone and saw them go down in flames and vice versa.

As i understand it following a collision both players get a message stating that the collision has occured - then the game works out whos fault it was and that person gets the damage...

Make it so both players get damage - ppl wont be long in learning not to get too close!

[Connery]

Note: I've never been in involved in any collision from 200 yards out. and im a euro connecting to a US server so my latency will be higher than most!

[Clifra Jones]

Originally posted by Elfie
First of all, I am not whining in this thread, I am participating in a discussion.

2nd, where did I state anything other than my OWN experience with collisions? In no way was I even implying that I was speaking for anyone other than myself.

3rd your opinion on what is the best system for collision modeling is just that....your opinion. Mine just happens to differ from yours.

But yours makes absolutly no sense in the context of this game. All it does is show a complete lack of understanding of the "3 sets of reality" that exist in AH. That is the problem with this whole collision discussion. Very few people understand this concept at all.

Reality 1=your computer
Reality 2=server
Reality 3=other guys computer

None of these are the same at any given time.

My opinion is based on facts obtained directly from the game author.

You did not answer my question. Would yuo be OPK wiht takeing damage when you obviously did not collide with another plane?

[Retired]

How was the 'ram' model in AHI?  I don't remember people complaining about it then.  Has it changed, or is it because of the message we get now?

[hitech]

As i understand it following a collision both players get a message stating that the collision has occured - then the game works out whos fault it was and that person gets the damage

Your understanding is completly incorect.

1. There is no fault in a collision. You detect/see a collision you take damage. I.E. You fly your plane, you occupy the same space and time with your plane as a plane you see on your screen you take damage.

2. The other player has the exact same rules as you. He occupies the same space at the same time with his plane and any other plane he sees on his computer he takes damage.

3. Damage is termermined by which piece of your plane occupied the same space and time with other planes you see.
4. The other persons collision detection has no effect what so ever on your collision detection.

Lag has nothing to do with this detection prosses. All lag does is makes what each person see's (or more precisly the Time varible of (Space and time)) be bigger , hence the bigger the lag the more different each persons world.

This lag is not just one persons lag but wrather the sum of the 2 computers lag. Hence when any 2 people look at eachother. They are both seeing the same amout of lag.


The only lag effect has nothing to do with dection but can effect kills awarded.

This effect is if both people detect a collision at the same moment in real time. This normaly only happens in a head on. Each person then applies there damage to themselevs and notifies the host. If this damage killed the pilot a kill would be awarded. Since this notification takes time to get to the host. The person with the slowest connect would be awarded a kill. Because as far as the host knows, the person with the slowest connection still is flying a perfectly good airplane.

Now if you realy wish to raise your ping times just so you could be awarded a kill in the case where both of you decided not to avoide the collision in a head on. Go right ahead.


HiTech

[Clifra Jones]

Originally posted by 5tu4rt
I understand perfectly well what LAG is, I am a semi-professional counterstrike player so I understand lag/choke/loss and other associated network deficiences which can cause poor performance or differing result.

The point is HTC have created a collision model which is definately not perfect, I know cos when I still played this game I knew full well there were times when I had collided with someone and saw them go down in flames and vice versa.

As i understand it following a collision both players get a message stating that the collision has occured - then the game works out whos fault it was and that person gets the damage...

Make it so both players get damage - ppl wont be long in learning not to get too close!

Here is one of the total misconceptions regarding collisions.

THE SERVER DOES NOT MAKE THE DECISION REDARGING COLLISIONS!

That decision is made on your computer and your computer ONLY. The only PC in the entire AH network that registers a collision and inflicts the appropriate damage IS YOURS.

Your computer registers a collision, informs you in your text buffer, send the message {your game ID} has collided with {game ID of player you collided with} to the player you hit over the PM channel. It registers damage to your aircraft, inflicts that damage on you and sends the damage packet to the server to be distributed to other players.

The host server is not involved in the damage model at all other that to send the packet containing your damage so other player see your plane damaged.

Is this really so hard to understand or is it that some of you just don't want to hear the truth.

[Elfie]

Originally posted by Clifra Jones
But yours makes absolutly no sense in the context of this game. All it does is show a complete lack of understanding of the "3 sets of reality" that exist in AH. That is the problem with this whole collision discussion. Very few people understand this concept at all.

Reality 1=your computer
Reality 2=server
Reality 3=other guys computer

None of these are the same at any given time.

My opinion is based on facts obtained directly from the game author.

You did not answer my question. Would yuo be OPK wiht takeing damage when you obviously did not collide with another plane?

I understand perfectly the *realities* of this game and how lag affects what each of us see.

The game author has chosen the worst possible solution for the collision model (imo). IF he insists on keeping collisions ON given the 3 realities, then both planes need to take damage. I am under no delusions that HiTech will ever turn collisions off, which given the 3 *realities* would be the most sensible option to take.

To answer your question, I am pretty sure I already have taken damage when I didnt collide on my FE. I cant prove this with films since I dont normally film my sorties. Turning on the film for me is usually a death sentence. At no time did I ever get upset about it though. Example: A couple nights ago I dove on a Zero, as he pulled up into me, I passed him canopy to canopy, clearly on my FE I didnt touch him, but I got a collision message saying I had collided with him, and I took damage. Did I get upset? No, it's just another *reality* of this game that we endure.

Another, far older flight sim a long time ago, in a galaxy far, far away had collisions turned off because of the 3 *realities* and no one complained. Nor were there threads on their bbs every week about the bogus lack of collisions. Or in the case of AH collision model, the unfairness of only one aircraft taking damage in any collision.

[Elfie]

Is this really so hard to understand or is it that some of you just don't want to hear the truth.

I understand all of that perfectly. And I think others do as well.

 I think the collision model itself is flawed. How can you deal out collision damage to just one player when 2 players will never actually see a collision at the same time?

[Booz]

Originally posted by Elfie

Another, far older flight sim a long time ago, in a galaxy far, far away had collisions turned off because of the 3 *realities* and no one complained. Nor were there threads on their bbs every week about the bogus lack of collisions. Or in the case of AH collision model, the unfairness of only one aircraft taking damage in any collision.

 But there were large problems of jousting without concern for damage. Jousting so bad that head-on gunfire was almost completely nerfed. Jousting so bad that it soon became the perferred method of engagement. We'd fly head on into the enemy in preparation for the immelman, don't worry about collision or gunfire, fly on through him as if he didn't exist. It was so bad that an entire generation of sim pilots thought that flying headon through the enemy was "how" to conduct air combat, an entire generation that today still cries foul at head on fire.

Originally posted by Elfie
I think the collision model itself is flawed. How can you deal out collision damage to just one player when 2 players will never actually see a collision at the same time?

  The answer is so simple that it confuses people, keep "your" plane from hitting someone else and *ding* you don't hit anyone else!!

[Arlo]

Originally posted by Clifra Jones
THE SERVER DOES NOT MAKE THE DECISION REDARGING COLLISIONS!

That decision is made on your computer and your computer ONLY. The only PC in the entire AH network that registers a collision and inflicts the appropriate damage IS YOURS.

Blame me. I supposed the server into the equation in my version. Actually, I like this even better.

[Karnak]

Elfie,

No collisions results in people flying through their targets, guns blazing from ranges that they cannot possible miss from.  It totally distorts any semblence of WWII air combat tactics as suddenly the best tactics are ones that would quickly kill you in reality.

[hitech]

And in that reality long long ago the standard tactic was hold triger down and fly threw the other plane.

The next effect was head ons increased drasticly.

The next step was to lower lethality and probabilty of hits when shooting in head ons.

And people did complain. And some disliked stuff so much they went on to create there own flight sims. And as that new company was disccusing collisions the CFO of that company had tried differnet froms of proccsing collisions. 1 side collides both do. 1 side only colides neither do. (He had already played a game with no collisions) And found those 2  new options again completly lacking. And then one day a player named caligula came up with the idea of one way collisions. The CEO that company almost imediatly agreed that cal's way was the only way collisions could be done.

And hence online collisions were born over 10 years ago. So exatly how is your "Opionion" created, have you actualy tried a creating a flight sim with all different option. Have you realy evaluated /tested/ seen the outcome of the different options?

And do you not agree that when you fly threw a plane you take damage? Or is it that your ego refuses to belive that you screwed up, and damaged your plane, because it realy must have been the other guys fault.

I think the collision model itself is flawed. How can you deal out collision damage to just one player when 2 players will never actually see a collision at the same time?

And under that agument it is imposible to even create a combat flight simulator, because just as with plane collisions, bullets also are not seen in the same place on both front ends, and hence do not collide with the plane on both front ends. So per your agument, all is folly and AH should not have been created.

HiTech

[SlapShot]

Originally posted by hitech
And in that reality long long ago the standard tactic was hold triger down and fly threw the other plane.

The next effect was head ons increased drasticly.

The next step was to lower lethality and probabilty of hits when shooting in head ons.

And people did complain. And some disliked stuff so much they went on to create there own flight sims. And as that new company was disccusing collisions the CFO of that company had tried differnet froms of proccsing collisions. 1 side collides both do. 1 side only colides neither do. (He had already played a game with no collisions) And found those 2  new options again completly lacking. And then one day a player named caligula came up with the idea of one way collisions. The CEO that company almost imediatly agreed that cal's way was the only way collisions could be done.

And hence online collisions were born over 10 years ago. So exatly how is your "Opionion" created, have you actualy tried a creating a flight sim with all different option. Have you realy evaluated /tested/ seen the outcome of the different options?

And do you not agree that when you fly threw a plane you take damage? Or is it that your ego refuses to belive that you screwed up, and damaged your plane, because it realy must have been the other guys fault.


 

And under that agument it is imposible to even create a combat flight simulator, because just as with plane collisions, bullets also are not seen in the same place on both front ends, and hence do not collide with the plane on both front ends. So per your agument, all is folly and AH should not have been created.

HiTech

PWNED !!!!!!!!!!!

[2bighorn]

Hitech, why in some collisions none takes a damage?

I had few duels with both messages for both players, ie "You have collided" and "GameID has collided..." yet none has taken any damage.

In one fight both of us collided twice and no damage at all.

Is this due to damage resolution?

[hitech]

I assume you both checked your damage screens?

HiTech