Author Topic: US judge rules wiretaps illegal  (Read 4648 times)

Offline lazs2

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US judge rules wiretaps illegal
« Reply #60 on: August 18, 2006, 08:58:38 AM »
welll..... gawd forbid that I should be branded a neocon and ad homien guy but...

The lady is an admitted lefty liberal with democrat ties and she goes and comes up with a lefty decison against a standing republican pres...  big deal... she is a lefty acting in a lefty manner.. sure... anyone can say that  her political bent has nothing to do with it but that would be pretty naive now wouldn't it?

As for the decison...   I agree with it.   I think hiring thousands of more new government police to listen to phone calls is a terrible thing...   I think giving the government even more power is a bad thing.

on the privacy issue?

I think anyone who talks on the phone and expects it to be private is pretty stupid.  Most of the time you are sending it out like a radio signal for anyone to grab.   It should be illegal but I don't expect it to stop.

I don't want the government to be involved in my bussines and I don't want them to have an excuse to get more powerful.  

If the terrorists blow up a blue city because our government couldn't become more of a police state then it is still more than worth it.

If an airliner goes down because everyone wasn't strip searched by the state... it is still worth it.

lazs

Offline Trell

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US judge rules wiretaps illegal
« Reply #61 on: August 18, 2006, 09:09:40 AM »
Wow,  I cant believe I actually agree with Laz on this,  At least agreeing with the second half of his statement.

Living in a free country, we may have more risks from People them selves, then we would living in some police state, But we also get the freedoms that go with it.

Offline Edbert1

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US judge rules wiretaps illegal
« Reply #62 on: August 18, 2006, 09:15:05 AM »
Eagler, your distaste for the Founding Father's writings is irrelevant.You failed to explain how the issue of slavery applies to the ruling on wiretapping, which is the subject of this thread.

Quote
Originally posted by lazs2

If the terrorists blow up a blue city because our government couldn't become more of a police state then it is still more than worth it.

If an airliner goes down because everyone wasn't strip searched by the state... it is still worth it.
 

Those are just some of the costs of freedom, just like all the white crosses in all those cemetaries are.

Offline Eagler

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US judge rules wiretaps illegal
« Reply #63 on: August 18, 2006, 09:21:54 AM »
Edbert
there are those that quote them as the way it should be today when in fact it was not even that way in their day so the entire basis of their outcry is baseless

and lazs is talking extremes once again - can't remember the last time I was strip searched at the airport nor do I think tapping overseas calls constitutes a police state

the police state will come right after the banks go belly up at the start of the next depression - then your wailing will have its teeth - not today, you are just paraniod
« Last Edit: August 18, 2006, 09:26:11 AM by Eagler »
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Offline lazs2

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US judge rules wiretaps illegal
« Reply #64 on: August 18, 2006, 09:35:27 AM »
trell... that is fine but...  I am simply consitent.

I think the problem that we most face in this country is that people here are allways willing to give the party of their choice police powers but fight like badgers to keep them from political parties they dislike..

The issue seldom seems to matter... it is only.... are these the good guys (my guys) or the bad guys (that other party)

What happens is of course... you give more power to the "good guys" and they use it to make a more powerful police state.... when the "bad guys" get in...

They use those police and laws against you and yours... the "bad guys" also then vote in even more police powers and the cycle continues.

It allways sounds like a good idea when it is your guys.... it never is.

There are no good taxes or no good laws that ban freedom.

No tax or ban or law should be taken lightly or in a panic or rush of anger or emotion.

Look at the gun laws...  allways... here and in other countries... some nut shoots a bunch of people and bad laws taking away freedom are rushed into being on the wave of womanly emotion that ensues...

I am afraid that this whole terrorist thing is just an excuse to grow government and suck more life from us.

so trell.... when your guys are in power.... strive to not let them have any more than they allready have...  strive to even roll back some of their power..

lazs

Offline lazs2

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US judge rules wiretaps illegal
« Reply #65 on: August 18, 2006, 09:40:14 AM »
eagler... perhaps I am being extreme... you don't walk around in your stocking feet in the airport?   People aren't strip searched and have their suitcases pawed through?   You don't see people pulled asside and being searched with their hands up?

I recall a day when people were laughing and hugging and smiling in airports...  today it is rare... most look like the pictures we used to see of soviet union crowds.  I will avoid airports at all costs these days.

You don't see having your phones tapped as being a violation of your privacy?   At what point do you?

lazs

Offline Eagler

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US judge rules wiretaps illegal
« Reply #66 on: August 18, 2006, 10:03:07 AM »
yes, airports are a real pain now, I deal with it - I don't take a  bus or a trian instead
If I get upset at anyone about running around in my socks at an ap, it isn't the security ppl doing their jobs or the ones directing them in an attempt to make my flight safer, it is those that caused it - you know the peace loving muslim folks

where does the concern come from with the phone taps? like you stated, if they want/need to tap ur phone they do it and you never know. the phone tapping never bothered me as I am on the phone maybe an hour total every month and I think the feds would die of boredom if they had to listen to my wife or sons babble on the thing.. I guess if I were doing something illegal it would bother me more but I lead a pretty simple/straight/boring life. I think the entire issue is just politcal fodder for one side to throw at the other.
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Offline lazs2

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US judge rules wiretaps illegal
« Reply #67 on: August 18, 2006, 10:15:10 AM »
eagler... about the airports.... I won't use em.  I don't like the police state feel... you apparently don't care so there is nothing for us to discuss.

As for the wire tap thing...   I allready explained.. the short version is that YES... I do think that expecting privacy on a radio phone is pretty silly BUT...

I do not want to give the government power to do it and the people and tax money and police and agencies and buildings and bades and judges and and and..... to do it.

You seem to feel that it is fine to grow the government and the secret police if the reason is "good enough"

I simply do not.  If they want to spy on my phone calls then let em take their chances of being caught and.... let em waste some government cops days listening in to my boring phone calls.... if he gets caught then we can gleefully fire yet another alphabet soup secret policeman and.... maybe his boss.... in the meantime...

he will be wasting time listening to me and not bothering some other poor citizen.

lazs

Offline Shamus

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US judge rules wiretaps illegal
« Reply #68 on: August 18, 2006, 10:30:51 AM »
Quote
Originally posted by lazs2
trell... that is fine but...  I am simply consitent.

I think the problem that we most face in this country is that people here are allways willing to give the party of their choice police powers but fight like badgers to keep them from political parties they dislike..

The issue seldom seems to matter... it is only.... are these the good guys (my guys) or the bad guys (that other party)

What happens is of course... you give more power to the "good guys" and they use it to make a more powerful police state.... when the "bad guys" get in...

They use those police and laws against you and yours... the "bad guys" also then vote in even more police powers and the cycle continues.

It allways sounds like a good idea when it is your guys.... it never is.

There are no good taxes or no good laws that ban freedom.

No tax or ban or law should be taken lightly or in a panic or rush of anger or emotion.

Look at the gun laws...  allways... here and in other countries... some nut shoots a bunch of people and bad laws taking away freedom are rushed into being on the wave of womanly emotion that ensues...

I am afraid that this whole terrorist thing is just an excuse to grow government and suck more life from us.

so trell.... when your guys are in power.... strive to not let them have any more than they allready have...  strive to even roll back some of their power..

lazs


I was gonna post on this subject, but I can't do any better than this.

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Offline cav58d

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US judge rules wiretaps illegal
« Reply #69 on: August 18, 2006, 12:55:46 PM »
Lazs....is the UK a police state?
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Offline Shuckins

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US judge rules wiretaps illegal
« Reply #70 on: August 18, 2006, 01:01:14 PM »
Before we traipse too far down the road of starry-eyed idealism it might be well to pause for a moment and remember that our so-called "fragile" system of civil rights has survived far more dangerous governmental intrusion than beefed up airport security.


Abraham Lincoln suspended the writ of habeas corpus across the entire nation during the Civil War and his administration made almost 13,000 arbitrary arrests of individuals opposed to the war or suspected of having Southern sympathies.  Many were held without trial until the end of the war.

President Woodrow Wilson's administration encouraged Congress to pass the Espionage Act of 1917, which imposed sentences of up to $10,000 and imprisonment up to 20 years for interfering with the operation of the draft and for disclosing information dealing with national defense.  Hundreds of anti-war activists were arrested and imprisoned for being nothing more than anti-war activists.

Wilson also persuaded Congress to pass the Sedition Act of 1918 which expanded the Espionage Act.  It permitted the Postmaster General to deny postal privileges to any newspaper or publication which printed articles
critical of the governmentor containing information detrimental to the war effort.  Authors of newspaper articles could be imprisoned for criticism of the war effort.  Even anti-war statements made in a private letter to a friend could see the author arrested and jailed.

The Espionage and Sedition Acts survived challenges in the Supreme Court...but were eventually repealed in the years after the end of World War I.  Oddly enough, these measures enjoyed the support of the great majority of the nation's newspapers and publishing organizations.

In contrast, the increased airport security resulting from the Patriot Act is merely inconvenient.  I've survived four intense searches of my luggage and two of my person while traveling in the Middle East...and I didn't get ticked off about any of them.  Come to think of it, I don't remember anybody else getting bent out of shape about it over there either.  It's only Americans who seem to be spoiled enough to complain.

If the searches were not being conducted...well, the criticism of government policy would have a great deal of merit...but not in this case.  It's time for us to grow up and face reality.  Our enemies are still trying to infiltrate our airports and hi-jack our airliners.  That simply cannot be allowed...period.  

As to the government's monitoring of phone calls between American citizens and contacts overseas...so what.  If the program had not been outed by the press, most of you wouldn't even know it was going on.  Hardly anyone was being arrested because of this surveillance.  The same goes for the program to monitor the transfer of funds by terrorist organizations overseas.  Our enemies are using both of these tools to further their murderous aims...yet some of us are more concerned by some chimerical "threat" to our "rights."

By all accounts, the government isn't actually "wire-tapping."  It is monitoring the destination of calls overseas and looking for suspicious patterns.  Unless you are making contact with an enemy of the U.S. the government will not even be listening to your conversation.  

Requiring the government to obtain warrants to monitor the destinations of hundreds of thousands of calls a day to overseas destinations is simply unreasonable and lays unnecessary roadblocks in the path of our security agencies.

It's time to pull our lips in, stop the whining, put our paranoia back in the bottle, and develop some realistic attitudes about the government and its attempts to guarantee our security.
« Last Edit: August 18, 2006, 01:04:07 PM by Shuckins »

Offline lazs2

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US judge rules wiretaps illegal
« Reply #71 on: August 18, 2006, 02:13:14 PM »
very good points.... I believe that you are making my point.    We did not survive lincoln.... the issue of states rights was forever damaged.

We did not survive FDR or willson or carter or LBJ...

We are worse off.  every time we lose rights we either never get them back or... get them back partialy while leaving the agencies formed in place.

As for england being a police state?   Who am I to say?  If I were there it most certainly would be for me since I would be arrested and imprisoned for a lot of the things I feel are my god given right to do.

england also does not have a bill of rights.   That seems to work for them so far.... to an extent.    the never had a second amendment so.....

england may get a lot worse.   No bill of rights is ok so long as you have a whole country that is pretty much all the same and steeped in tradition but.. look at the rights being taken away at every panic?   Will it get worse?

How do I know?  I do know that there really is nothing to stop it tho.   And... I don't want to live like that.   They trust their government...

we do not.   are we paranoid or are they stupid and naive?   again... who knows but... Our government has been caught in enough really dirty stuff under every adminstration that it would appear that at least.... our paranoia is justified.

and shukins.... when is the war on terror or the war on drugs over?  when do we get our rights restored?

lazs

Offline Recap

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US judge rules wiretaps illegal
« Reply #72 on: August 18, 2006, 02:26:26 PM »
First it's your phones, now it's just simply the way you're acting....does anyone really see this madness ending?  Keep on giving the government what they want..they'll take all you have.

By ZEKE MINAYA and MICHAEL HEDGES
Copyright 2006 Houston Chronicle

A controversial method of screening airport passengers by observing their behavior and facial expressions will be coming to Houston, local authorities said Thursday.

Based on a federal program, local security personnel at George Bush Intercontinental and Hobby airports will be trained to look for a telltale sign in, for example, a traveler's scowl or when a passenger fidgets with luggage.

"A facial tic, the quickening of the pulse in the jugular vein, a change of complexion," are some of the kind of discrete indicators airport staff will be looking for, according to Mark Mancuso, the Houston Airport System's deputy director for public safety and technology.

But critics of the behavorial-based method of screening said it can all too easily become another form of profiling and could result in unconstitutional searches and detention of passengers.

"It will lead to more problems and not any more security," said Randall Kallinen, president of the Houston Chapter of the American Civil Liberties Union.

The screening method, pioneered in Israeli airports, is based on a federal program that may already be in place in Houston. The Transportation Security Administration, part of the Department of Homeland Security and the agency responsible for the screeners at airport security checkpoints, began experimenting with behavioral detection teams in December in about 12 airports.

Andrea McCauley, a TSA spokeswoman based in Dallas, declined to say whether either of the major airports in Houston was part of the program, called Screening Passengers by Observation Technique, or SPOT.

"We can't comment on specifics about the program," she said. "The program was developed to detect people who are a danger. We want to keep an element of unpredictably and randomness to where people may be detected."

But a federal official familiar with the program confirmed that at least one Houston airport was part of it.

In the places where it is being used, the program has resulted in 95 arrests, McCauley said.

Arrests were not for terrorism, but for drug smuggling, false immigration documents and other crimes.TSA officials point to them as proof of the program's value.

"We are able to tell the difference in someone who may be stressed simply because he doesn't like to fly, and someone who is contemplating a terrorist or criminal act," McCauley said. "It goes beyond just identifying facial clues. We are looking for involuntary physical and psychological reactions."


Signs of anxiety, fear
The screeners look for signs of anxiety, fear or deception, as revealed in facial tics and body language most people aren't trained to disguise.

McCauley said those characteristics are universal — and TSA does not focus on people of a certain race or ethnicity.

Mancuso would also not say whether the TSA's program was in place in Houston but he did confirm that members of his staff will be training in the same behavioral detection techniques.

If a passenger has attracted the attention of airport staff because of behavioral signals, security personnel engage the traveler in a casual chat, Mancuso said. The airport staffer would "ask a series of questions" about anything that would allow for further study of the person's reactions, Mancuso said. If further action is deemed necessary, a more formal interrogation follows.

"This is way too subjective and individual screener's prejudices can be used as a basis to stop anyone," said the ACLU's Kallinen.

The method potentially violates unreasonable search and seizure protections as described in the Fourth Amendment of the Bill of Rights, he said.


Lawsuit in Boston
Kallinen also noted that behavorial-detections techniques as practiced by law enforcement officials in Boston led to a lawsuit after King Downing, the National Coordinator of the ACLU's Campaign Against Racial Profiling, was randomly picked from a crowd in Logan Airport by Massachusetts state police.

According to a lawsuit filed on behalf of Downing against the Massachusetts Port Authority, behavioral profiling had been used as the basis for stopping passengers since 2002 when the port authority announced that state police troopers at Logan Airport were being trained by an outside security consultant.

According to court documents, Downing was approached by a state trooper on Oct. 16, 2003, and asked for identification while making a phone call. Downing refused to do so without first knowing why he had been singled out.

The incident escalated until Downing was surrounded by four troopers and told that he was being placed under arrest for failing to produce identification. Downing agreed to produce his driver's license and no charges were filed.

Calls to Downing and his lawyer to find out the current status of the lawsuit were not returned.

"Throughout history, our fears have led us to diminish our civil liberties and our civil rights without gaining any safety," Kallinen said.

Offline Sandman

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US judge rules wiretaps illegal
« Reply #73 on: August 18, 2006, 02:31:57 PM »
Quote
Originally posted by lazs2
and shukins.... when is the war on terror or the war on drugs over?  when do we get our rights restored?


Excuse me... I think I can field this question.

Never.
sand

Offline lazs2

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US judge rules wiretaps illegal
« Reply #74 on: August 18, 2006, 02:41:20 PM »
well gee sandy.... here I was feeling all warm and fuzzy thinking it was only a temporary thing and you go and...... rip my heart out.

lazs