How can we keep the small arenas fun?

[storch]

Originally posted by Simaril
It seems that the small arenas are trending towards effectively 2 countries. Both EW and MW had one side with hige advantage (maybe 50%), another that was competitive but outnumbered (say 35%) and the last with rediculously low numbers.

In MW last night I saw 45 rooks, 24 bish, 5 knights.

I figured, what the heck, and played the 2 country game -- switched from Nits to Bish. I located a certain very large squad, and upped in their zone for an expected fight against the Rooks. I engaged a few, got some assists, and finally succumbed to a perked tiffy...

But the Large Squad had disappeared. I located them on the other side of the map, doing a base capture mission unopposed. I trailed their mission.... and helped take down some ack, grabbed another assist.

Only after I landed did I realise that I had just helped capture a base from the low side Nits-- who had climbed all the way to 7 players. Meanwhile, the Large Squad was upping to take another Nit base. I left.


Since we see these imbalances, wouldnt it be nice for:

1)  the high sides to readjust themselves (after all, the rooks were low side in the EW...a few movers would have changed the entire flavor of the MW), either by changing countries or arenas?


2) and, for the two highest sides to at least try to fight each other, instead of worsening the disparity by milkrunning unopposed against a country that simply can't fight bacK? There were more players in the Large Squad mission than there were on the entire low side COUNTRY!

last night in the EW when I logged on there were 32 bish 15 nit 16 rook players.  the bish were led by the Bops and had the nits rolled down to four bases.  an intrepid rook player suggested on country that we attack the bish thus relieving the beleaguered nits.  

just as I was settling in for a comfy bomb run into bishland an amazingly simple message flashes across the text buffer.  does anyone want to fight in fighters? I reponded in the affirmative and a location for the fight was quickly selected between A5 and A62.

 the fight lasted for the better part of an hour usually between 3 players per side.  my ripeness finally overcame the family and I was sent to the shower by frau storch and offspring.  upon completion of my shower I return to find (much to my surprise and pleasure) the fight still in full swing.  

in total I believe it was a two hour long, small but intense furball.  all good things come to an end and this fight did in the usual manner, a strat player took out all of the nit hangers in the name of winning teh war.  poor furballers never bother anyone, we just don't fit in and hunted down like vermin. our places of birth are stamped out of existence for fifteen minutes.

mars01 for his invitation to beat me up, loumn and xcasprx.  those were very nice fights and they are the reason I re-suscribe every month.

[Helm]

One team steam rolled another team with superior numbers?  Whats news about that?


   If you make bases tougher to capture the team with less players will be at an even greater disatvantage because they will not have the resources to recapture lost bases.

   Make bases easyier to capture it will spread the fights out and it will allow 2-3 man units to make a difference.  There will fights all over the map.


  Large squads capturing bases against little opposition so they can reset the map?  Big deal, this does not bother me at all.  In fact it is a good thing, because in the games current state large units are the only thing with enuff muscle to move the map around.  I get tired of taking off at the same base and flying to same enemy base over and over.  I enjoy the change of scenery and change of pace this map "movement" brings.  

  Too many players on one team?  Everytime I log in, I join the team with the least players and I fight/attack the team with the most players.  I do this because i enjoy the challenge,  and it is good for the game.


Helm

XO   ^"^Nazgul^"^

[stantond]

Make one of the smaller arenas a fighter town.  That would make it fun for me and I believe several others.  Not that I really expect this to happen, but it's an appropriate response to this thread.


Regards,

Malta

[Mugzeee]

Originally posted by Toad
Your post is not spot on, I'm afraid.

I have never been a Blue Knight, or even a Burger King. I think it's a fine squad with some great people and great cartoon pilots in it but as my avatar suggests, I was 13th TAS until OZ died and then we changed the name to Wardogs.

While you may agree with my posts, don't lose sight of the fact that I think toolshedders have pretty much ruined what was once a fantastic air-to-air combat game and I think large lemming squads have also played a major part in dumbing this game way down.

Do you still agree?

Actually the responsibility lies squarely on the shoulders of HT and HT alone.

For it is his game design, inherent goals and tools that have evolved the game into what it has become today.

I for one am sick and tired of the players being blamed for the evolution of the game while using the games tools, objectives and design to play the game.

Until HT figures a design to change the way the game is played and the objectives that are to be achieved, then the players will continue to play the game as designed and the game play will be a product of the games design.

You all can point the fingers to each other all you want.

The fact of the matter is, HT is solely responsible for how this will all shake out in the end.

Yes he will and has lost subscribers. Yes he will gain new subscribers. And yes i think Ah2 will march on. It is by the whole of the sum a good game.

Its time to face the facts. Ah2 is changing, some will stay and others will leave as i have.

After the dust settles i can come back and have a look see and decide if it is for me or not.

But to continue to blame or be blamed by my fellow players for a game design that dictates game play, play style and outcome is total Bull****.

Just look at this thread alone.
With every suggestion the problems multiply and compound untill the cons out weigh the pros.

It seem's rather impossible to have a "Win the War" game and a "Dogfighting game" all wrapped up in one without the incessant *****ing and moaning from each side.

As i see it, there never was a problem with the game design at all, other than the fact that the guy feeling pounded on found the games design as an excuse to explain his reason for sucking on any given day.


So why let the Games design cause us fellow players to blame each other? Put the blame where the blame should be placed.

[Overlag]

Originally posted by SlapShot
Dude ... I wrote that on the 18th and now your responding to it ? ... I thought between then and now ... we came to an understanding (especially me) and I have not jumped all over any of your posts since then.

because i totally missed it, and the other fella replied to it bringing it into my inbox

yeah we had come to an understanding yes...

[Mr No Name]

This game is reminding me more of the government every day... using a "welfare based" perk system and penalizing those with a numerical advantage... to 'make things fair'

now using a system to discourage teamwork and cooperation that stifles progress and encouraging a stalemate... sounds just like congress!

[Mugzeee]

Originally posted by Mr No Name
This game is reminding me more of the government every day... using a "welfare based" perk system and penalizing those with a numerical advantage... to 'make things fair'

now using a system to discourage teamwork and cooperation that stifles progress and encouraging a stalemate... sounds just like congress!

Now this is funny

[Simaril]

Originally posted by Mr No Name


now using a system to discourage teamwork and cooperation that stifles progress and encouraging a stalemate... sounds just like congress!

So you're in favor of monopolies? You know, large corporations that work together as teams to maximize their own advantage, even if it causes harm to the common person?


Wait, I was talking about business, not hordes...right??

[lazs2]

It's not a war and it is not a political movement..

It's a game.... a game is supposed to be fair and fun..  One person is not supposed to be able to make it unfun for dozens at a time with little or no effort.

When that happens.. the rules need to be adjusted.

The problem is the steep learning curve.   the new guys need to be able to have some advantage or some way to have an effect without getting too high up on the learning curve.

The problem is when the easy mode stuff like bombing, some of the GV's and the late war planes that should be for the new guys with very little skill to kill simplistic strat...

When those things get gamed and griefed... when someone organizes dozens or more to use these gamey tools to destroy the fun of the whole arena or when the guys with skill insist on useing the easy mode strat ideas and planes and vehicles.

I don't see the solution... the gamey squads feel they have a right... if you restrict em too much then the totaly skilless newbie won't have anything to do and lose interest.

We obviously can't police ourselves in a large arena so...  the small arenas with less chance to game the game are what we got.

I guess it is too bad that Air warrior easymode died and emptied out into here.

lazs
Public Relations Officer for the BK's

[DamnedRen]

Simaril,

Isn't that what the CT was all about? A small arena frequented by a small  number of people? That small number of people had fun. Now HTC added another small arena and began calling the smaller arenas EW, MW. But now you have equalization of the plane sets. Again small people numbers. Then HTC added another LW arena due to spill over from the 1st LW arena.

He has actually created another arena but merely limited the planesets somewhat. Did you notice the LW is where it's at? Did you also notice the other smaller arenas have a nice following? Not large but some place for those that only wanna see 20 or so enemy planes can go.

What makes you think, that if there are 40 or 100 or 500 people, they will want to play your way? Even up the sides? Why? They have always been Bish. Why stop now? Because you want them to? They have had a squad, big or small, they should stop having a squad because you want them to? So you can have fun? Is it all about you? Is it all about them? Majority rules? Minority loses? Squeeky wheel gets the oil? Which is it?

I think it's more about the Community. If you quit worrying about you and got up and had some fun then you might find out that it's all good. One thing that HT has done is made sure there is a little bit of everything for everyone in the game. There really is more than one way to have fun in the game without having to tell everyone their way isn't.

For instance, I got up last night in the LW arena and decided to go check out 16 as there was an enemy dar bar there. On arrival no friendlies were in the area but I saw 3 or 4 dots. 3 lower one co-alt. I couldn't believe the lower one was trying to come up to me until I got icon on him. What did I see? A 163! He leveled off and grab'd some speed while I dumped my DT's and got my nose down a lil and the fight began. I think I was able to bring my guns to bear once or twice but my heavy plane (75% FOB after dumping the tanks) was having trouble with him in the vertical and in a bout 3 minutes we ended up in a nose down vertical scissors in which both of us pancaked on the deck in opposite directions. I think he musta have been low on gas at that time and I ended up under 3 enemy planes. I was able to extend enough to have the cap of one of ours so immediately re-entered a fight with a N1K. In the middle of a vertical reversal I was again jumped by a 152 and tromped so hard on the rudder I snapped into an unrecoverable stall from about 1800 agl. It was a fun fight. They had fun. I had fun. The guy who broke up my tails had fun. I died. Big Deal! I went looking for a fight was I gonna be out numbered? Probably. Did I end up out numbered. I wouldn't have been if I hadn't run into the 163. He used up my E and Alt in a running 3 minute battle. 2 miles from their airfield. Do I care that he was in a 163? Nope. It was fun to take him on. Would I tell him it's unfair? Nope. Bring whacha got and lets do it. Did I grab a 163 to combat him? Nope, I was haviing fun with my toy just like he was having fun with his toy.  All in all I had a nice hour or two in the arena. What I'm trying to say is there were;
1v1's
1v3's
3v1's
4v3's
3v3's
10v10's
Furballs too.
Folks actually running missions trying to actually take a field.
Folks actually trying to stop missions from taking their field.
Heck, we even had booboo (not real callsign) come to our field. Vulch die and come right back. His MO was exactly the same every time. 190D. 12k. Move to the north end of rwy to get aligned and dive in. One pass done the runway. Maybe one kill if he's lucky. Run like hell or....maybe reverse and make another pass and die. He's got it down to a science. I bet he could do it 5-6X an hour. Lessee 25 miles to our field from his. Climbing at approx 190mph. Yeah, he could get back in around 10-12 minutes and make his feable pass and die. An annoyance? Not really. Ever flap at a mosquito trying to land on yer arm?  Do I need to tell him to get a life? Nope. He has one. He's doing his little thing. I'm too busy having fun with my life to worry about him.

So there you have it. An arena with a little of everything for everyone. And guess what? Everyone I saw was actually having a good time. Even those guys that died where having a good time. They came back and fought again.

Thats why I say start acting like a responsible/reasonable member of the community. Quit trying to tell people to have fun your way. Get up and have fun. If there's 30 guys hitting a field, that's nice. If you feel you gotta have fun by being apart of that group then do it. If you wanna defend against them then do it. If you decide you wanna defend you don't have to go into the middle of the 30 planes to do it. Run along the edges and pick your fights. I bet you can find one and actually enjoy it. if they take a field because there's so many of them does that mean it's the end of the world? Guess what....it ain't. Come on, it's a game. There are so many things to do in it you won't be able to do them all in a night. And, how can you possibly get bored? The only way I know someone could get bored is they have really, really short attention span.

Ya know, I used to look at the CT as "it's my game" and didn't fly much there. Yes. I dropped in from time to time to see if anything changed. Not much had. On average there were 20-30 people flying. The CT was more of a specfic planeset/period war/specific locale that changed planes, etc and had a following. It was a kinda "let's play the game my way" for about 20-30 folks.  That's about all the people of the 600 or so that got up and fly were interested in it. HT and Co. has tried to make a game compatible for a larger group of people. I guess it's been working for the past few years are the numbers have grown to where there's been 570+ in one arena with TONS of things going on. Suffice it to say if there's an arena that attracts 30-70 people in a 'it's my game" attitude and another arena that attracts 500+ people in an "it's our game" attitude what does that tell you about the thought process of the majority of the players in the game?

And no, all of this long winded typing is not on behalf of HT or anyone else. It's on behalf of the game of AH2. I've been flying these sims a long, long time and the few times any of these types of games have sufffered it's because the Community changed their way of thinking from "it's our game" to "it's my game". So let's get back to "It's our game". Sorry if this hits a sore spot but most folks learn to get over themselves and realize there's more to a Community than just their personal wants and desires. Besides, if you look at what the game gives you can probably get everything you ever wanted out of it.

Ren
The Damned and AH Player

[Overlag]

Originally posted by lazs2


It's a game.... a game is supposed to be fair and fun..  One person is not supposed to be able to make it unfun for dozens at a time with little or no effort.

you HARDCORE furballers LET it happen by not defending


its NOT his fault for the undefended bomb run is it?

[Mr No Name]

^5s Overlag!

[Mr No Name]

Originally posted by Simaril
So you're in favor of monopolies? You know, large corporations that work together as teams to maximize their own advantage, even if it causes harm to the common person?


Wait, I was talking about business, not hordes...right??

It's called teamwork, cooperation, planning... It works well wherever it is applied!

[DamnedRen]

I disagree. The game is what you make of it.

Who said it has to be fair? If 10 guys get up and decide to take a field and do it unmolested is that fair? Do you imply they're not supposed to do it? What gives you the right to say they can't do it? Show me the rule that says that.

I already mentioned one guy vulching a field we were using. Guess what, an not to burst his bubble,  he wasn't much more than a gnat at the field. That's part of the game. Up from a capped field at your own risk. That's been around since these games began.

IMHO first you have to define just what it is that needs policing. So far all I've been hearing is lotsa of people complaining about "you MUST play the game my way". Sorry, if HT wants to make it easy for new guys to bomb then you gotta learn to adjust to it. If you just GOTTA stop some group from bombing a field then take off and do it. Otherwise, who cares if they bomb the field.

Hmmm, steep learning curve. Are you saying you just walked in the door and knew it all? That you didn't have to learn, too? If so, then I call BS and if you can't sell that garbage to any vets flying and any new guy reading this needs to know thats a load of crap. Then again on one hand you're trying to tell everyone that the new guys need some sort of advantage then go on to say they're gaming the game?

Tell me again what value you post has brought to the discussion other than a whine about not being able to police ourselves in a large arena and therefor you deserve a small one?

Then you actually have the stupidity to tell HT that the hundreds of people who've come to AH from the RR arenas of AW that they never should have become customers? That they're ruining the game? Who's doing the whining here? I don't see AW RR guys whining.

I hate to burst your bubble but it ain't about you. It's about the 700+ people that get up every night and play in all the arenas. In every other past sim game the Community has policed itself. Sometimes with the help of the owners of the game. If you don't want to contribute to the Community then why should we listen to your whining about how bad it is?

Oh yeah, bubba. I came from FR so I'm not some RR guy just whining about your silly post.

And no, this is not an attack on the BH....MUAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA! It's a reply to an idiotic post. Next time try bringing something to the forum that helps the Community.

Lastly, ego can be good. Arrogance might be bad. The next guy that kills you might be one his 2nd flight ever.. Try being humble and help to become part of the solution iso part of the problem. "We can't police ourselves" is the biggest load of crap I've seen on the boards this year.

Ren
The Damned and an AH Player

Originally posted by lazs2
It's not a war and it is not a political movement..

It's a game.... a game is supposed to be fair and fun..  One person is not supposed to be able to make it unfun for dozens at a time with little or no effort.

When that happens.. the rules need to be adjusted.

The problem is the steep learning curve.   the new guys need to be able to have some advantage or some way to have an effect without getting too high up on the learning curve.

The problem is when the easy mode stuff like bombing, some of the GV's and the late war planes that should be for the new guys with very little skill to kill simplistic strat...

When those things get gamed and griefed... when someone organizes dozens or more to use these gamey tools to destroy the fun of the whole arena or when the guys with skill insist on useing the easy mode strat ideas and planes and vehicles.

I don't see the solution... the gamey squads feel they have a right... if you restrict em too much then the totaly skilless newbie won't have anything to do and lose interest.

We obviously can't police ourselves in a large arena so...  the small arenas with less chance to game the game are what we got.

I guess it is too bad that Air warrior easymode died and emptied out into here.

lazs
Public Relations Officer for the BK's

[FrodeMk3]

<> Ren. These last two posts' that you put up, made me feel like you were typing what I was thinking.