Changes to come.

[FTSeeker]

Originally posted by hitech
Stiletto: The change does in no way threaten the squad base. You are viewing things in a very micro chasm.

1. You assume it will be the norm for squads not to be able to fly together.
2. You assume to have a successful squad you must ALWAYS fly together.
3. You assume squads will not adjust to be able to fly together.
4. You assume a static non growing population.
5. You assume I already do not know about the interactions of squads.
6. You assume I do not have other ideas in the works (don't ask I will not tell)
   that also will effect things.
7. You assume that squads no matter how large increase player retention.
8. You assume that squads are the only item that increase retention and attract players.
9. You assume that if nothing had changed people do not leave for other reasons.
10. You assume that to have fun with your squad, every member must be able to fly together.


My point is, that I very well understand the attractions and need for social aspect of a "Squad". But also understand there are other needs that have to be balanced with the needs of squads.

HiTech

Dang.. that's a lot of assumptions....

I very rarley post here but I have to...

We have seen in the last several months the only way for our squad to fly together (yes together) is to go to an almost empty arena.  The other arenas are almost always full thus not allowing the entire sqaud to enter the same arena let alone fly for the same chess peice as you all put it.  Once we get into one of the less populated arenas, it often does not matter what side we fly for as that side will be penalized for our numbers.  We sometimes put more than 30 together for joint operations.  

This is what we have flown with for quite some months now.  And this is what we forsee in the future (as noted in this dang long thread).  

We don't know what's "down the road for AH" as noted by HT and that's ok.  We are hoping that the squads can continue to fly together (yes together) on squad ops nights but what we're seeing today (yes today) is that may not be possible (yes not possible).  

Stiletto is right in saying many of our squad have stayed on so far due to loyalty to freinds.  They don't fly much outside of squad operations nights because we have fun no matter what we're doing as long as we're doing it together.

I really dont think Stiletto was making all (yes all) of those assumptions.. or meant to.  I do think he was makeing a few assumptions though...

I'm sure he was assuming the squads would have to make some changes to continue to fly together (we have been for quite some months).

I think he was assuming that when new people came into the arena, it's often squads that take that new person in and help train them and show them the ropes.

I think he was assuming that lone wolfs don't take in newbies very often unless they are buds outside of AH (yes outside of AH).

I think he was assuming that in a main arena every member of the squad does (yes does) need to fly together unless there's special things (yes special things) going on within the squad.. inner squad ladders.. inner squad furballs in an empty arena, training and so on.

I'm sure he was not assuming you're not aware of the interactions of squads but I'm also sure he was assuming the squad operations was not given a high enough priority in the setup of the new arenas as is evident in the above text.

As I look at various business models the goals are often simple (not that the process is) but there are one of two goals in a service... customer retention or (yes or) customer base growth.  Those two business models rarely work together well.  I certainly wish this company well with the business model they choose, however it's melded (<--that's a good thing).

I'm surely not here to tell you how to run your business (don't assume I am)  

I'm surely not here to tell you how much you have messed up (you havent).

I'm surely not here to tell you to do this or that or I will quit (it wont matter if I quit I assume)

What I am here to tell you is that the squads are the ones in trouble right now if they want to continue flying together and having fun. (the way the arenas are set up)

What I am here to tell you is this is the weakest part of what we're seeing (squad operations and the ability to fly as a squad).

As micro as this chasm is... that's what we're seeing (and that's no assumption)


FTSeeker
CO Flying Tigers AVG

[Overlag]

my overall plan on "balance" would work off the ENY system we had.. only more extreme.

a few basic things need changing tho.

1: all top planes (from 43?) onwards perked.....even if its a few perks.
2: ENY starts off "easy" but then gets harder and harder... ie not linear
3: perk modifier also follows this route.
4: each "step" up the ladder on the ENY causes base captures to need more troops.

this means the side with higher numbers (but not badly out of balance) will have to spend a lot of perks to fly most planes.... but also wont earn many perks due to poor perk modifier. Base captures 10-15 troops

as the sides come even more out of balance, ENY kicks in, stopping most of the plane-set being usable. Pilots will also not be able to earn hardly any perks at all, meaning there perks will be forever falling (if they are on the high number side). Base captures will need 15-20 troops.

Low sides will enjoy easy perk farming... cheaper planes (i know its like this now but more pronounced)..


Perks *could* mean something else in this game, to balance the whole system out, however they are currently used just to buy uber planes.





id rather fly a 109E vs LA7s than not fly at all.


but this goes back to the first change of 9/13.... if it aint broke, dont fix it....

1 arena..... relatively balanced....(RJO being exception... but how often has that happned since RJO was canceld 2 years ago?.....)

1 arena, people fight... instead they goto empty (or uneven sides) ones to toolshed and win teh war!!

1 arena = 1 slum. 4 arenas = 2 empty arenas and 2 slums

really what has the first change done, other than **** up so many other things?

[Shifty]

Originally posted by 999000
Just a thought on "balance"......Just imagine Churchill durring the battle of Britain ...picking up the phone and calling Hitler...."you have too many planes"....will some of your guys come over here so we can have a fair fight?......or will you ground your 190's for awhile to give us a chance?
Thank god in real life these men had the courage..stomach..and tenacity  to win out against tough odds....
Seriously don't people playing this "game" enjoy the challenge of haviing the short end of the stick at times?? just to see if you can overcome the odds?
999000

 What color are the trees on your planet?
I doubt very seriously you are complaining with this much drama because you want to fight against extreme odds.

[Stiletto]

Originally posted by Edbert
All this statement means is that you are willing to "move as a group" to a different game but not to a different chesspeice. Now that individual threats of quitting are not getting you you're way, you've resorted to entire squad threats?  LOL

You know, it's almost pointless to post here. I'm beginning to see why people get so frustrated. I'm trying to help keep a sizable group of people here, not make threats. This was no threat. We've now lost 3 people, and I'm trying to stop the attrition. We aren't willing to trade squad integrity for some grand business strategy, but maybe it's just us.  And we don't so much care what country (chesspiece, in your vernacular) we fly for, but we do care about flying together as a team. Do we train in the training arena and fight against each other? Sure. But not in the combat arenas. Our official motto is "Team First." Maybe we're old-fashioned, or just plain old.

[ALF]

As with all major upheavals I am concerned, but Lets not all get bent out of shape until we wee how it works out.  I do have concerns, and one of my main concerns is how squad ops could be completely disrupted.  It will not take more than a few times of getting 10-15 guys setup for a mission, and then having the system disallow half of them to takeoff before the complaints start.  I will happily wait for the dust to settle, but cant say this does anything to help the AH community.

HT is obligated to try new things, and Dale aint no dummy, but he isnt omnipotent either.  He will do what he thinks will help, and well thought out, polite comments are indeed considered.  Remember, there is a difference between passion and abuse.  If you see a real problem popping up regularly, let him know....I know I will:D

[Baine]

7. You assume that squads no matter how large increase player retention.


8. You assume that squads are the only item that increase retention and attract players.
9. You assume that if nothing had changed people do not leave for other reasons.
10. You assume that to have fun with your squad, every member must be able to fly together.


My point is, that I very well understand the attractions and need for social aspect of a "Squad". But also understand there are other needs that have to be balanced with the needs of squads.

HiTech [/B][/QUOTE]

The change does in no way threaten the squad base.

HT I'm sorry, but you're just plain wrong there.

These guys aren't making comments with the jerk of a knee. The comments are coming after flying for the last couple of months and trying to enjoy squad nights under the old set of new changes. They've given stuff the good college try without *****in or moaning. Now they - and many of the other people in this 12 pages of comments - see changes that they fear are going to finally do away with the aspect of the game they treasure most.
 
I don't know if you fly in a squad or not. But if you did regularly you would understand where they are coming from.
You're also assuming that these guys are saying they want to fly together all the time, they don't. But this system does make it difficult, if not impossible on squad nights when they do want to fly together.

 
I'm not assuming that you do not know about the interaction of squads. But I also know that these guys _ and lots of others in this thread _ are basing their comments on their real experiences over the past several months, not on some perverse desire to give you a hard time. They are speaking from experience. They know what they are talking about.

You say we assume you don't have other ideas in the works.
I think, given the last couple of weeks, most of us are sure that you do. But, since you won't share them and tend to announce them rather abruptly, then you can't blame us for commenting on them as they come along.
You say "I have a roadmap, trust me" but then when people post their concerns in a civil way you go into "I am the great and powerful Oz" mode. An understandable reaction, but one not likely to generate a lot of trust.

Maybe I'm wrong, but  I think a lot of us, if you do have a plan, would prefer you wait until it was fully formed instead of implementing it in drips and drabs. That's not an assumption, but based on the numerous "I don't want to pay to beta test" posts.

I don't think anyone will argue with you on point 8 and 9. I don't see anyone here doing so.
But you are dead wrong on point 7. I speak from experience. Take a look at my stats (SKBaine). I'm flying maybe 6-10 hours a month these days. Most of that is on squad nights.  Without my squad I probably would have cancelled my subscription a while back. I might have come back when you got done with CT and started putting a little more effort into AH again, I might not have. But the opportunity to spend two or three hours a Sunday with guys who are both my virtual and real life friends keeps me playing. (Well, that and the fact that I'm a real procrastinator). So, here you have at least one person who stayed because of his squad. I know of at least two others and I assume that we are not alone.

And finally, we do understand that you have to balance many needs to make the game a success. Remember, many of us have been here since the start, and have played other MM games before. We know the drill.
That's why these guys don't post very often. They are content to let you do what you need to do.
 As I said in the beginning of my post - they kept their mouths shut for many weeks and tried to make a go of it. You should consider that when you consider their comments and give them the respect they deserve.

[Excaliber]

Originally posted by SKDenny
I think that you just described AH at the moment
SKDenny

ROFLMFAO....... yep!  

[Excaliber]

Did I suggest a retro MA ....or was that the post that was deleted?

[Stiletto]

Originally posted by ALF
As with all major upheavals I am concerned, but Lets not all get bent out of shape until we wee how it works out.  I do have concerns, and one of my main concerns is how squad ops could be completely disrupted.  It will not take more than a few times of getting 10-15 guys setup for a mission, and then having the system disallow half of them to takeoff before the complaints start.  I will happily wait for the dust to settle, but cant say this does anything to help the AH community.

HT is obligated to try new things, and Dale aint no dummy, but he isnt omnipotent either.  He will do what he thinks will help, and well thought out, polite comments are indeed considered.  Remember, there is a difference between passion and abuse.  If you see a real problem popping up regularly, let him know....I know I will:D

I'm 100% of the same frame of mind, Alf. I'd really like to see this tested out, before people decide whatever they're going to decide. I admit to having jumped to a hasty conclusion, and to be fair to HT and his staff, I'm going to urge patience on my friends to put these changes to the test, and then yell and scream at HT. (Just kidding, Dale.)

[Stiletto]

Originally posted by hitech
Stiletto: The change does in no way threaten the squad base. You are viewing things in a very micro chasm.

1. You assume it will be the norm for squads not to be able to fly together.
2. You assume to have a successful squad you must ALWAYS fly together.
3. You assume squads will not adjust to be able to fly together.
4. You assume a static non growing population.
5. You assume I already do not know about the interactions of squads.
6. You assume I do not have other ideas in the works (don't ask I will not tell)
   that also will effect things.
7. You assume that squads no matter how large increase player retention.
8. You assume that squads are the only item that increase retention and attract players.
9. You assume that if nothing had changed people do not leave for other reasons.
10. You assume that to have fun with your squad, every member must be able to fly together.


My point is, that I very well understand the attractions and need for social aspect of a "Squad". But also understand there are other needs that have to be balanced with the needs of squads.

HiTech

I'm not your enemy, Dale. You're making a lot of assumptions about me - none of which are true. I am assuming a few things, though, so let me set the record straight.

1. I'm assuming you are not stupid, and you know how to keep a business going.

2. I'm assuming you don't have a death wish for your business, and are not bent on destroying it.

3. I'm assuming you are a hard-working man who does what he thinks is right to grow his business, while retaining loyal customers (like me).

4. I'm assuming you haven't conducted any formal surveys of loyal customers (like me), or exit polls of people who have quit. (Saying yes or no to that wouldn't be divulging any trade secrets, but since no one I know has been invited to take such a survey, it's pretty clear you haven't done any.)

5. Because I'm pretty sure I'm right about number 4, I'm assuming that you are making these decisions based on logic, experience, the counsel of friends, and these insane bulletin boards that I wish I had managed to avoid posting to.

6. Here's a REALLY BIG assumption: I assume that a very small number of the overall AH population actually post on these boards on a regular basis, so using them to get a handle on what the community as a whole might want or need to keep them happy is a dubious undertaking.

7. Here's another REALLY BIG assumption: That people who work for you are not likely to tell you everything they think or feel.

8. Another REALLY BIG assumption: That a group of buddies around you, no matter how well-meaning and honest, might not know what it's really like to just be a subscriber in the trenches, no matter how many "sunglasses" accounts they might have.

9. And my biggest assumption of all: That no matter how smart you are, you can't see your own business objectively. If you want objectivity, go to the long-time squad leaders and ask them what would make their squads happy. We are the ones who find out before you do when people are so frustrated and unhappy they are about to cancel their subscriptions, and we are the ones who try our best to talk them out of it.

10. And now, for my final assumption: I assume you will read this, because you know, deep down, that I'm speaking the truth, and that I'm not out to make your life miserable.

[daddog]

I have lost some members too due (in part) to the changes going on. Hope I don’t lose any more.

Still in the wait and see mode. I trust the HTC staff will weigh quite carefully anything that would improve game play, but subtract from squad play. I think they understand quite well how important squads are to many of us, even if many in the community obviously don’t.

I also understand what is best for the player, may not be what is best for the squad. And that HTC will ultimately do what is best for his business, which may not be dependent on what is best for players or squads.

[E25280]

Originally posted by hitech
The direct competitors today are.

Fighter Ace
Warbirds
Target Ware

HiTech

I can't believe you got this wrong!







Your three direct competitors are

My Wife

My Kids

My Job




thought this thread could use a little levity

[JB88]

yesterday i had a stressful morning. i havent gotten to fly much recently because i have been busy and i was looking forward to jumping in and taking a ride in my favorite plane.

i look at my watch. half hour to screw off. okay. here i go. joy.

aces high> online arenas> hmmm...latewar blue has 135 people, early war has something like 20-30...> latewar blue> you are number 5 of 5 in que. > WHAT?! > grrr. wait wait wait.> you are number 5 of 7 in que> wait wait. > lets see. do i want to go fly in an unpopulated arena? > no. > not a milkrunner. > wait wait.> grrrr. switch country. > sigh. > radio check> silence. > radio check > silence. > (other guys) who is this guy? > skip radio check > back to me. > plane comes up on me...hey, why isnt anyone clearing my six? > .f wingman > on other team > grrrr. > boom. > hanger> select plane > take off> see plane > kill plane. > boom! wingman dead > wingman: WTF? > me. sorry dude. etc...


all i wanted to do was fly the game that i paid for and thats what makes me think that Hitech is unconcerned with the general wellfare of the people in the arenas as opposed to some unspoken esoteric vision of the game that we do not get to share.

would it have ever been all that hard to set up an email database in the beginning or in registration asking if people would like to know when changes are happening? should we have to go find it or should we just be happy to participate in whatever the new whim is?

how hard could it be to a coder to set up a system to let people know what is happening?

how many people, do you think offhand, would say "hell no" if you ASKED them to participate in some tests rather than subjecting your paying subscribers to them without warning?

fact. we are the other half of this equasion sir, and without us you would not have a business to run and you probably would not have the rescources that you need to create this thing that you have dedicated your life and energy to.

we are your life blood. all of us. and though we have differing opinions, it seems pretty clear that a majority both here and in the arenas are less than happy with the current approach.

all due respect, but is it really so much to ask that you show some of us the same respect that you expect for yourself?

i don't think it should be. and i really don't think that the real people on the other side of your server connections appreciate being viewed as "whines" that come with your changes.

my. .02. edit at will.

88

[SlapShot]

Originally posted by JB88
yesterday i had a stressful morning. i havent gotten to fly much recently because i have been busy and i was looking forward to jumping in and taking a ride in my favorite plane.

i look at my watch. half hour to screw off. okay. here i go. joy.

aces high> online arenas> hmmm...latewar blue has 135 people, early war has something like 20-30...> latewar blue> you are number 5 of 5 in que. > WHAT?! > grrr. wait wait wait.> you are number 5 of 7 in que> wait wait. > lets see. do i want to go fly in an unpopulated arena? > no. > not a milkrunner. > wait wait.> grrrr. switch country. > sigh. > radio check> silence. > radio check > silence. > (other guys) who is this guy? > skip radio check > back to me. > plane comes up on me...hey, why isnt anyone clearing my six? > .f wingman > on other team > grrrr. > boom. > hanger> select plane > take off> see plane > kill plane. > boom! wingman dead > wingman: WTF? > me. sorry dude. etc...


all i wanted to do was fly the game that i paid for and thats what makes me think that Hitech is unconcerned with the general wellfare of the people in the arenas as opposed to some unspoken esoteric vision of the game that we do not get to share.

would it have ever been all that hard to set up an email database in the beginning or in registration asking if people would like to know when changes are happening? should we have to go find it or should we just be happy to participate in whatever the new whim is?

how hard could it be to a coder to set up a system to let people know what is happening?

how many people, do you think offhand, would say "hell no" if you ASKED them to participate in some tests rather than subjecting your paying subscribers to them without warning?

fact. we are the other half of this equasion sir, and without us you would not have a business to run and you probably would not have the rescources that you need to create this thing that you have dedicated your life and energy to.

we are your life blood. all of us. and though we have differing opinions, it seems pretty clear that a majority both here and in the arenas are less than happy with the current approach.

all due respect, but is it really so much to ask that you show some of us the same respect that you expect for yourself?

i don't think it should be. and i really don't think that the real people on the other side of your server connections appreciate being viewed as "whines" that come with your changes.

my. .02. edit at will.

88

WOW ... you almost had me in tears ... I feel so sorry for you and your personal plight ... no seriously man ... I do.

[JB88]

good for you.  


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