Gun crazy Swiss

[Ack-Ack]

Originally posted by Squire
Sounds like the Japanese gun laws exist to foster Olympic shooting sports only, judging from those stats, and the particulars quoted.

Its "effectively" a ban, any other definition is grasping at semantics.

 

I think Japan's views on gun control (be it a ban or not) is more cultural than some liberal politician screaming about the evils of owning a gun.

ack-ack

[Charon]

According to the statistics, it's still a lot more likely than in guns crazy Switzerland, or guns forbidden Germany.

Define "a lot."  I'm a lot more likely to be struck by lightning than hit by a meteorite, but I'm not going to worry all that much about either. Since I'm not a criminal, there is about a 2 in 100,000 chance of me being killed by a firearm. I'm statistically a lot more likely to be killed by any number of daily activities. I should be living in terror each time I strap on the seat belt to go for a ride...but I don't. Taking a shower carries its own risks. Working with power tools. To me, 2 in 100,000 is nothing to worry about. I wouldn't imagine I would feel any safer if it were half that, or any more at risk if it were double or triple that. The overwhelming majority of people living in the worst neighborhoods will still die from some other cause than a gunshot wound, though they may regularly get beat up, robbed and suffer other mistreatment.

Charon

[Angus]

Gun forbidden Germany? Not compared to Iceland, since the hunters are allowed pistols for a quick deal with a wounded boar.
(Was once hunting, the arms were a 30.06 and a .357 for the finish )

What sticks out is that gun control is meant as gun CONTROL. The whole point is getting guns from getting into the wrong hands, - and at the wrong time.  And it seems to be working okay in some countries, and some not.
So what baffles me is why so many of the US folks on this board are basically mocking people from other nations for their gun laws, while "the others" have a much less problem with both guncrime, and crime in general.
This is commonly referred to as "throwing stones out of a glass house".
On the flip side, once you have everything flooded with weapons, and any looney able to pack a punch, then getting the control is perhaps impossible.

[john9001]

Originally posted by Ack-Ack
I think Japan's views on gun control (be it a ban or not) is more cultural than some liberal politician screaming about the evils of owning a gun.

ack-ack

only samurai are allowed to carry swords.

[lazs2]

lets get things in perspective...  

lambchop/beetle/sybil also believes in man made global warming and going to all manner of expense and big goverment regulations to prevent it... he believes that every human should wear a seatbelt in any car and the government should force us... He believes it is important to force people to wear helmets on bikes.  He has fire insurance on his home and more than likely some kind of earthquake or meteorite coverage..

all.... "just in case"

Even tho he is far more likely to have need of a firearm than any of those things in his lifetime.

lazs

[Jackal1]

Originally posted by Angus

What sticks out is that gun control is meant as gun CONTROL.  

No, it is meant as personal freedom control. In this case means control over the people and the intention to disarm and put individuals at the whim of others. Government control over it`s population...totaly.
If you will look back in history at some of the biggest CFs of countries/governements/totalitiarism gaining complete control over it`s population with bad intent, then compare it to the chip, chip, chip of what`s being attempted here today and has been for a while, you will see a trend and a pattern.
I`m just waiting for the "A VW in every household statement."
I can understand why you don`t understand.

[Charon]

What sticks out is that gun control is meant as gun CONTROL. The whole point is getting guns from getting into the wrong hands, - and at the wrong time. And it seems to be working okay in some countries, and some not.

In the US, gun control is a political tool to appear to be doing something about inner city crime, while allowing the politicians to totally deflect any discussion of actually addressing the difficult tasks of poverty and a  lack of opportunity in these communities. Firearm crime is by and lage not a national issue in the US, not a state issue and not even a broadly city/town issue (with a few exceptions like Detroit). It's a specific community issue, most apparent in large urban areas. It's just easier and safer for politicians to ignore the big, hard problems and concentrate on the inanimate boogie man.  

"the others" have a much less problem with both guncrime, and crime in general.

Not so. Countries with a growing inner city poverty/cultural sift problem are starting to have exactly the same issues -- bans or not. As far as crime in general is concerned, Great Britain, as an example is eclipsing the US easily in a variety of low-violence categories and catching up in serious violent crime. There are communities that are more dangerous than places like Washington D.C. (for exactly the same reasons and in exactly the same patterns). But there is far less urbanization in the UK in general which provides a natural limiter for the time being. Of course these statistics and specific examples have already been posted a number of times and even linked to in this thread. Perhaps one day you will actually read them. Iceland doesn't have a gun crime problem because it is generally well off broadly across society. It lacks a concentrated urban population. There is high employment and a unified community spirit among a like minded and largely homogeneous population. That is the key to your success. You could give every adult a handgun and I seriously doubt you would have blood flowing in the streets.

On the flip side, once you have everything flooded with weapons, and any looney able to pack a punch, then getting the control is perhaps impossible.

The last time I checked heroin and cocaine were not produced anywhere in the US. They are banned in all 50 states and throughout the North American continent. Yet, criminals move mountains of these drugs in everyday. Criminals don't obey laws. If there is a need, a black market will develop. Banned items are profitable. Criminals get what they want, and guns are/would be no exception unless you can tell me how they would magically be different.

Charon

[Angus]

Hey Charon
I tend to disagree with you here:
""the others" have a much less problem with both guncrime, and crime in general.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------



Not so. Countries with a growing inner city poverty/cultural sift problem are starting to have exactly the same issues -- bans or not. As far as crime in general is concerned, Great Britain, as an example is eclipsing the US easily in a variety of low-violence categories and catching up in serious violent crime. There are communities that are more dangerous than places like Washington D.C. (for exactly the same reasons and in exactly the same patterns). But there is far less urbanization in the UK in general which provides a natural limiter for the time being. Of course these statistics and specific examples have already been posted a number of times and even linked to in this thread. Perhaps one day you will actually read them. Iceland doesn't have a gun crime problem because it is generally well off broadly across society. It lacks a concentrated urban population. There is high employment and a unified community spirit among a like minded and largely homogeneous population. That is the key to your success. You could give every adult a handgun and I seriously doubt you would have blood flowing in the streets.
"

Issues:
1: The UK has a long way to go before catching up. In the big crime (more important) it has a very long way to go.
2: Of course there are worse communities worse than Washington DC. Take Bogota. Now find me something in the "old" western world outside the USA.
3: Give every adult a hangun up here, and trust me on this one, you will have gundead people. Actually the last victim here fell for a handgun (smuggled) and in that specific case, it had to be a handgun (conceiling issue).
I know lots of people I would NOT trust for a gun, especially not a handgun. Luckily they don't have any ...

[Charon]

11: The UK has a long way to go before catching up. In the big crime (more important) it has a very long way to go.
2: Of course there are worse communities worse than Washington DC. Take Bogota. Now find me something in the "old" western world outside the USA.

Check the links I posted. You were actually participating in the discussion at the first link.

The same disparity can be seen in the UK. While the country as a whole has a low rate of murder, there are areas where the murder rate is high. In Glasgow, Scotland, the murder rate is 5.9 per 100,000 (cite). In London, by contrast, it's 2.1 per 100,000 (cite). In the Manchester metro area, it's 10 per 100,000. And in the Manchester neighborhoods of Moss Side and Longsight, and in the Manchester suburb of Hulme, the murder rate is a monstrous 140 per 100,000 (cite)-- which is considerably worse than Washington, DC, America's most murderous city.

Charon

[Angus]

And that brings you where in comparison to the USA?
Detroit?
39.3 vs Whooping Manchester's 10, Glasgow's 5.9, London's 2.1, Iceland's 1-2...?
Of course, if you go down to absolutely bad areas, you can find a high percentage. If my wife get's tired of me and kills me, we have a 25% murder rate that year in the house.
Apples to apples please.
The challenge remains, to find a country from the western world (W of the curtain of old) that has worse guncrime or just crime stats than the USA. Not a block in Birmingham, but a country.

[Charon]

Of course, if you go down to absolutely bad areas, you can find a high percentage. If my wife get's tired of me and kills me, we have a 25% murder rate that year in the house.
Apples to apples please.
The challenge remains, to find a country from the western world (W of the curtain of old) that has worse guncrime or just crime stats than the USA. Not a block in Birmingham, but a country.

Our crime occurs in the same "bad areas." There is no firearm violence epidemic outside those bad areas. We just have more of them. My daily life is no more fearful than yours. I live here. Have for 40+ years. We have a population of 300 million. We have a far more diverse population than most of Europe. We have greater economic disparity, with urban crime patterns that date back to the 1800s. We have a different urban/rural dynamic. These are facts. I have pointed this out all before in threads you apparently fail to read, even when you are participating in the discussion -- even in this thread. It's like talking to a brick wall. I have specifically noted the differences between the UK and the US. Look at the population of the top 10 cities for both. Look at rural vs urban density statistics. Why don't you find me an apples to apples comparison in all of these areas to the US for a change? I'm tired of being the only source of facts in this discussion. Back up your opinion with something more than a gross statistical generality. It's your turn.


Charon

[Charon]

Here's a summary on the key apple to apple difference - street gangs. These are the source of most of the firearm homicides in the US. And, it's a trend that is catching on in Europe. Only a matter of time, and the results of increased violent and firearm crime are being tracked today.

Street Gang Violence in Europe
Levels and descriptors of violence among European street gangs are summarized from studies reported primarily under the aegis of the Eurogang Program initiated in 1997 and continuing still. European gang violence is placed in the context of its American counterpart, of European non-gang youth violence, and of the definitional and structural components of the Eurogang Program. European gangs in over a dozen countries reveal a wide pattern of violent behaviour and levels of violence that are far greater than among non-gang youth, but largely less serious than in the USA. Some of these latter differences may be attributable to the recentness of the European gang development, the lower levels of firearms availability, and lower levels of gang territoriality in Europe.

You'll note the three factors to the US lead in serious violence:
*Recentness of the European gang development
*Lower levels of firearms availability (Oh my gosh... but wait... see below)
*Lower levels of gang territoriality in Europe

If you read the actual study itself:
 
http://books.google.com/books?id=trTHT_qv-osC&dq=street+gangs+us+europe&printsec=frontcover&source=web&ots=ZC0PC_IGsg&sig=XU1HbUS_YEBs0aQFAMzpd8wDsLo#PPP1,M1

It not only provides a solid accounting of how these gangs have developed in the US, but why and how and why they are developing in Europe. While the firearm part above has been true in these early stages, the study also notes that "Firearms, once rare enough to be a valued commodity in the gang "treasury,"  have become far more accessible and at the same time far more lethal. Thus gang rivalries have become more serious with shootings by any one group at another, more readily and normatively more demanding of a like response. More firearms are now carried on the person, rather than stashed away in a safe place meaning that more events, more crime scenes, more parties, and more confrontations involved the immediately available gun."

Here is how the Manchester police deflect attention away from their inability to deal with the actual criminals, while focusing their efforts on the guns these criminals use.  Even though firearms are banned pretty heavily in Europe the criminals managed to find a way exactly as we have described earlier. In fact, I was a bit dismissive of Lazs manufacturing firearms claim, but not so:

"Following the tragic shooting of Jessie James we must now begin the process of tackling the source of the guns that find there way onto the streets of Manchester and the UK. That is why I have invited Detective Chief Inspector, Paul Savill to present to Euro MPs the problems we have with the influx of weapons, in particular from Lithuania and Germany.
“There is a serious problem at the moment regarding the control and acquisition of guns. The differing rules in each member state mean that countries like the UK, which already have strong arms control laws, are suffering from a growing weapons trade in the rest of Europe.”
“Smugglers are bringing guns into the UK from other European countries. The guns, which were originally made to fire blanks or CS gas, are then being converted and sold on to criminal gangs.
 
“We have to act now and ensure that these deadly weapons are taken off our streets so that they can not be used to kill more innocent children like Jessie James.”
http://www.arlenemccarthy.labour.co.uk/ViewPage.cfm?Page=20557

In the UK, only criminals can have blank pistols modified to shoot real ammunition. And this...

The National Criminal Intelligence Service - one of the participants at Friday's summit - has alerted police forces to the ingenuity with which Eastern European gun manufacturers have disguised their products.
A gun made to look like a mobile phone has been found in London.
Others designed as key rings are intended to avoid airport security.
Guns resembling screwdrivers, cigarette packets and pens have all turned up in the UK. http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/uk/2644233.stm

And this...

AS Britain struggled to understand yet another brutal gun murder in the wake of the Harvey Nichols horror, a former armed response officer told us of the ease at which guns were being smuggled into the country.
Roger Gray, who worked with SO19, the armed response unit of the Metropolitan Police, revealed guns were coming in to the country through sea ports, in luggage and lorries.
The smuggling of the weapons, some of which he said were manufactured in India and China, others sold in Eastern Europe, was made easier due to easier communications and international travel connections.
Mr Gray, who has written the book Armed Response about his experiences in the Met, described Britain's borders as "porous to say the least".
"Buying weapons in Europe and bringing them into England is not really a problem, bringing them in to the Kent Cinq Ports is even less of a problem," Mr Gray said.
"It is very easy," he added

Ban all you want. If a criminal appreciates the value of a firearm the criminal will get that firearm. The potential victim is just out of luck.

[john9001]

when MS13 and al qaeda start fighting over territory, you will see real gang street action.

[Angus]

Charon, when you pull the nose a tad further away from the porridge, you  might actually see the plate.
USA = 3/4 of homicides performed with a gun, mostly handguns.
UK = 1/4 of USA homicides. Murders with firearms of my stats page: 62 against  8.259 (Population comparison is roughly 1 to 5 so those 62 would be 500, so 500 against 8259).

rough figures, but look at http://www.nationmaster.com

So, the brickwall answers. I think you CAN NOT claim that European crime rate will go down with a better access to deadly and conceilable arms. Europe as a whole, and even the UK is more densely populated than the USA, and very mixed as well. European population is also larger than the US. Note that I assume that Europe and the USA are the closest to compare. Streetgangs are everywhere, problem is that yours are and have always been (notably in the famous time of the Chicago typewriter ) much better armed. Getting a gun in the USA is no problem at all for any idiot. Getting a gun in Europe is a different issue, harder, and more expensive.
So, since the Euros, - or Brits,  - do much less of shooting each other, as well as killing each other and robbing each other etc as the US do, - with noticably more difficulty in aquiring arms, - how on earth do you expect anybody to belive that increased free-floating arsenals will improve it further?

Still a wall.....

[lazs2]

charon.. I can make a firearm with the things I can buy at any hardware store.  It would take hours or days depending on how complex or disguised I wanted it to be but it would be deadly.  

angus... you are the one not seeing the plate for the porridge...   what gun laws reduced a homicide rate anywhere in the world...  does it really matter what weapon was used in a homicide.   If england had 100 murders a year before the draconian ban of firearms and half of em were by firearms.... if they then banned firearms and had 100 murders a year of which only one or two was with a firearm.... how is that better for the people murdered?

If citizens were made helpless in their homes at the same time.... how is that better in any way?

Same for here.. what firearms law has ever made for less homicides here?  Where has a gun control law been passed where there was a drop in crime?

But even that is not the case...  freedom does not work that way.  Freedom is too important to take away because it may inconvieniece a few or cost a few bucks or even... get someone killed.   If a few have to die to have freedom for the remainder then it is worth it.  

lazs