General Climate Discussion

[Angus]

Well, it is well within our power to nuke the planet into an iceage.


So, is it arrogance to think that we have no influence on the planet and the atmosphere?

So is it arrogance to think that we may be able to soften our total impact on the planet?

[lazs2]

angus.. if your drink is not getting colder even with an ice cube in it and even if the air is too cold for the drink to heat... you might very well look at other reasons... the sea has gotten much hotter than air temp could have made it.

sooo.. how much has the sea risen in the last decade?  how much will it rise next year?  5 years?   or will you, like your heros... wait till that time to make the "prediction"

They have been wrong every single time... they can't get next month right or next year.. what makes you think they got this right?

When have we had a winter caused by nukes?    are you sure we are capable?  how do you know this?

lazs

[Angus]

I guess you hate the weathermen Lazs. If you study their science though, you might appreciate and understand their task.

Then on to the SL. You have yet no explanation for it's rise? Or are you just avoiding the question??

Then on to the Nuke winter. Not sure if your answer is a ducking attempt or just ignorance, but this was promoted as a result from a total nuclear war, of which the human's arsenal is fully capable of, and was on standby in USA-USSR mode for many a year, - just in case you missed it.

[john9001]

how many nukes do we have to set off to offset global warming and save the planet?

[lazs2]

what makes you think I hate weathermen?   I am simply telling you that they know enough to know that anything over a few days is a crapshoot.   Most scientists with any integrity will tell you that there are far too many complex and unknowns to accurately computer model the global climate after about 7 days...unlikely even at that.

the sea levels have risen?  OK.. we are in a warming period.. that is to be expected.   how much?  how much have they risen?   I was hearing 30' by 2050... couple of feet by next year.. don't see anything like that.. nothing to worry about so far as I can see.

The nuke winter?  well.. my point was.. we never had one so we don't really know if it is even possible.. every prediction for the effect of say... iraq oil fires or mount st helens or say.. the yellowstone fire.. all have been wrong.. and wrong to the side of being way less of an effect than was predicted.   I simply have a healthy doubt about the nuke winter thing.  Not something I would like to test but...  probly, like everything else... much exaggerated.

lazs

[Wolf14]

Originally posted by lazs2
angus.. the ice is growing in the south.  

http://www.washingtontimes.com/apps/pbcs.dll/article?AID=/20070815/EDITORIAL/108150004

 

Heard bout this the other day. Was wondering if anybody else had heard. Guess we'll have to worry bout running out of room down south cause the south pole is getting bigger.

Does that also mean the balance of the Earth is going to get thrown off and we'll have to create the grand plan as humans to rebalance the earth in the north so it isnt bottom heavy?

[MORAY37]

I said it and I meant it, ... Most of you are in serious need of a basic science class.  That is all I will speak of on these issues anymore.  Most of your arguments lack even the most vague comprehension of scientific principle, nor of even the subject you are quoting.... you simply take some op-ed piece that happens to agree with your own personal opinion, and use it for a source.  But, then again, this is america, you don't have to be informed to spout off at the mouth.

[AKIron]

Originally posted by MORAY37
 But, then again, this is america, you don't have to be informed to spout off at the mouth.

[Angus]

Lazs:
"the sea levels have risen? OK.. we are in a warming period.. that is to be expected. how much? how much have they risen? I was hearing 30' by 2050... couple of feet by next year.. don't see anything like that.. nothing to worry about so far as I can see.

The nuke winter? well.. my point was.. we never had one so we don't really know if it is even possible.. every prediction for the effect of say... iraq oil fires or mount st helens or say.. the yellowstone fire.. all have been wrong.. and wrong to the side of being way less of an effect than was predicted. I simply have a healthy doubt about the nuke winter thing. Not something I would like to test but... probly, like everything else... much exaggerated.

lazs"

Okay, here we go.
The SL rises because more landbased ice melts than gathers again AND/OR the sea is heating up. The S-Pole could be growing, but less than the N-LANDBASED ice is melting. Either way, there are enormous powers at work, and as a twist to this, - co2 is more concentrated in the N-Hemisphere.
This is being checked now on numerous places on the globe. What a waste of gov. funds
The nuke winter...yes. Well a NUKE winter is something that you don't want to test, although variants of it have already happened. If you dim the sun through the atmosphere, you will have very fast cooling. This has been demonstrated in big volcanic eruptions, and I'll be more than happy to provide you with the information about it if you need it, but Ithink you actually chose not to mention those.
Anyway, the Iraqi oil fires are like a candlelight compared to a proper NUKE situation.

[Thrawn]

Originally posted by JB73
in one of his bits he mentioned how he can't believe we as humans have the arrogance to think we are that significant in the grand scheme of the planet to harm it, especially to the degree some "scientists" claim.

What a ridiculous idea  Just because Carlin arbitrarily decides that a situation or idea is arrogant doesn't change it's supporting evidence one iota.  Some people probably thought it was arrogant to think that man would ever fly, or go to the moon....therefore what, we didn't do those things?

especially to the degree some "scientists" claim.

That's pretty cute how you put scientists in quotes.  What are you implying, that their years of education, degrees, skills and experience don't meet your qualifications?  If so why should we take your judgment over the that of the universities and peer review systems?

[Angus]

Well, I recall some one this board/topic expressing his opinion about how the governments were wasting money on useless things like ice-core/glacial research.

[Louis XVII]

Originally posted by MORAY37
I said it and I meant it, ... Most of you are in serious need of a basic science class.  That is all I will speak of on these issues anymore.  Most of your arguments lack even the most vague comprehension of scientific principle, nor of even the subject you are quoting.... you simply take some op-ed piece that happens to agree with your own personal opinion, and use it for a source.  But, then again, this is america, you don't have to be informed to spout off at the mouth.

So true, Moray. I feel your pain/frustration. Thanks for the sigmat

[lazs2]

moray pontificated to louie...

"I said it and I meant it, ... Most of you are in serious need of a basic science class. That is all I will speak of on these issues anymore. Most of your arguments lack even the most vague comprehension of scientific principle, nor of even the subject you are quoting... blah blah blah... you are not as smart or educated as me blah blah blah... you are mean..blah blah blah."

This is all well and good until you realize that moray is simply an ocean science guy... in the top ten?  nope.   climate science?  nope..   just a windbag really...or... at best.. a tenth rate scientist.

But... maybe.. still smarter than say.... me.  But he is not arguing with me.   It matters not how smart I am.   The persons I am quoting are all scientists...real sceintists... one... is the top in the field moray is in...moray is a flea on this guys butt and this guy says that moray is full of it.

The list of scientists that are jumping the whole MMGW ship are legion.   Are they all smarter than moray and me?  maybe...  but one thing for sure... they have a lot more experiance in the field than both of us combined.

moray is basically saying that he is smarter than all the scientists who have come to the conclussion that MMGW is a hoax or... at the least a huge exaggeration.

morays arrogance is worthless here.  he gives no data.. he simply says... "believe me because you are not as smart as me and wouldn't understand"

No one really "understands"  there are plenty of theories to go around and for every one.. there is some doubt.

hell  moray can't even keep his word.. what is this?  like the 4th time he has said that he won't reply to any threads like this because we are beneath him?

lazs

[lazs2]

and friend angus.. you still have not said...

due to "MMGW"... how much have the ocean risen... what is the number.  I want a number.   the margin of error is about an inch or so by the way.

lazs

[MORAY37]

Originally posted by lazs2
moray pontificated to louie...

"I said it and I meant it, ... Most of you are in serious need of a basic science class. That is all I will speak of on these issues anymore. Most of your arguments lack even the most vague comprehension of scientific principle, nor of even the subject you are quoting... blah blah blah... you are not as smart or educated as me blah blah blah... you are mean..blah blah blah."

This is all well and good until you realize that moray is simply an ocean science guy... in the top ten?  nope.   climate science?  nope..   just a windbag really...or... at best.. a tenth rate scientist.

But... maybe.. still smarter than say.... me.  But he is not arguing with me.   It matters not how smart I am.   The persons I am quoting are all scientists...real sceintists... one... is the top in the field moray is in...moray is a flea on this guys butt and this guy says that moray is full of it.

The list of scientists that are jumping the whole MMGW ship are legion.   Are they all smarter than moray and me?  maybe...  but one thing for sure... they have a lot more experiance in the field than both of us combined.

moray is basically saying that he is smarter than all the scientists who have come to the conclussion that MMGW is a hoax or... at the least a huge exaggeration.

morays arrogance is worthless here.  he gives no data.. he simply says... "believe me because you are not as smart as me and wouldn't understand"

No one really "understands"  there are plenty of theories to go around and for every one.. there is some doubt.

hell  moray can't even keep his word.. what is this?  like the 4th time he has said that he won't reply to any threads like this because we are beneath him?

lazs

I love when I can get a Laz wall of text, from one post.

No, laz, the problem here is I am no smarter than anyone in the field.  We all look at and interpret data.  Sir, the overwhelming majority of scientists agree that warming is occuring.  What little, and I do mean little, debate occuring is proving a causal relationship to man and said event, at least to a scientific case.  The system involved is fluid, and it is trying to balance itself.... so up and down swings occur.  It is the overall long term trend that is the underlying factor.  Take that into account and also that we should be sliding into a glaciation period, due to our orbital inclination swinging out a tenth of a degree or so... and you sir, should be a little worried.

The question is and always should be, not that "what climate is right for the planet", rather, what climate is "right for humanity".  A warmer climate is not good for us as a species, sir.

And the global sea rise is pretty much exactly at 1/10 of 1 inch per year.  I've measured it sir, and it is real.  To have a MEASURABLE change per year on such a scale..... you need to be stupid or truly ignorant of the topic not to realize what that means.

My ocean doesn't change without your climate changing.