Where were the sane licensed carrying gun owners in all this?

[Maverick]

Tigeress,

This should fit the bill.

Dictionary.com Unabridged (v 1.1) - Cite This Source - Share This
ci·vil·ian      /sɪˈvɪlyən/ Pronunciation Key - Show Spelled Pronunciation[si-vil-yuhn] Pronunciation Key - Show IPA Pronunciation
–noun 1. a person who is not on active duty with a military, naval, police, or fire fighting organization.  
2. Informal. anyone regarded by members of a profession, interest group, society, etc., as not belonging; nonprofessional; outsider: We need a producer to run the movie studio, not some civilian from the business world.  
3. a person versed in or studying Roman or civil law.  
–adjective 4. of, pertaining to, formed by, or administered by civilians.

[Toad]

Microstamping is just another something-is-being-done scheme to pacify the non-discerning.

[FrodeMk3]

Originally posted by MiloMorai
I didn't know American police stations had transporters FrodeMk3 that could beam the police instantly to the exact scene of the crime taking place.

Milo, I'm sorry if I offended you, or anyone else in Law Enforcement, but it's true; Very rarely are you guys' there at the scene of the crime as it goes down.

They patted themselves' on the back for the 6 minute response time, too.

[SD67]

6 minute response time is excellent IMO.
We had an invasion robbery a few doors down a little while ago. The Police station is right across the road.
They took something close to an hour to respond:huh

[sgt203]

Originally posted by FrodeMk3
Milo, I'm sorry if I offended you, or anyone else in Law Enforcement, but it's true; Very rarely are you guys' there at the scene of the crime as it goes down.

They patted themselves' on the back for the 6 minute response time, too.

6 Mins is not bad response time.

Im not offended by your remark at all however I would be very interested in any ideas you have that could lower response times for police to incidents.

I would also be curious to see if you have any ideas you may that would put police at the scene of crimes the minute they take place.

I would definately say if you can come up with real ideas that may work you could make quite a lucrative living as a consultant to law enforcement agencies throughout the world.

Good luck.

[MiloMorai]

Originally posted by FrodeMk3
Milo, I'm sorry if I offended you, or anyone else in Law Enforcement, but it's true; Very rarely are you guys' there at the scene of the crime as it goes down.

They patted themselves' on the back for the 6 minute response time, too.

Not offended but I think you are out of touch with reality. How far away was the closest LEO? How much time did it take to drive to the location and this includes a busy parking lot? How long did it take the LEO from leaving his car to run through the mall to get to the scene? Was he checking the crowd for the shooter?

Maybe one of the LEOs can tell what the average response time to a bank robbery is.

What is the response time for fire trucks to get to a fire? (just for perspective)

Btw, the news this AM had another shooting at 2 churches in Colorado. A security guard killed the shooter.

[Rich46yo]

Originally posted by FrodeMk3
Milo, I'm sorry if I offended you, or anyone else in Law Enforcement, but it's true; Very rarely are you guys' there at the scene of the crime as it goes down.

They patted themselves' on the back for the 6 minute response time, too.

                      Depends on the Jurisdiction. County or state Dept.s can often be, as we call it, "A long ways off", due to the nature of the size of area they have to patrol. Even some cities are also spread pretty thin.

                    On the other hand I couldnt begin to count the times Ive been driving down the street and seen a robbery going down, a gang fight, a fire, or been 1 or 2 blocks from a scene when the call comes out. Ive even rolled by right when people start shooting at each other.

                 When you call the police the dispatch aint instantaneous anyway. Theres a lag of one or 2 minutes from when the call taker first picks up the call and from when a car is contacted and dispatched.

[storch]

Originally posted by FrodeMk3
Milo, I'm sorry if I offended you, or anyone else in Law Enforcement, but it's true; Very rarely are you guys' there at the scene of the crime as it goes down.

They patted themselves' on the back for the 6 minute response time, too.

in a free and open society the police are going to perform in a reactionary function.  it is impossible for law enforcement to act until there is a violation.  it is incumbent upon the individual citizen to act responsibly.  it is the responsibility of the family to to bring their individual members up in such a manner so as to conform to the mores of that society.  what we see today in acts such as the one being discussed in this thread is the result of the breakdown of the family unit and the social consequences of that breakdown.

furthermore if every citizen took responsibilty for their own safety as well as their own behavior you would see far fewer of these sociopathic members of our society successfully committing these acts of mass murder.  I'm sure that if I were caught up in an assault of that nature my reponse would be to throw down and send some copper jacketed hollow points in his direction even from a 3" revolver which is what I carry on my person.

I promise you that unless that person has been shot at before it will certainly break his rythym and perhaps that might allow another responsible member of our society to engage the shooter.

while a response time of six minutes is commendable, as we have seen an awful lot of tragedy may be administered in that long period of time.

[lazs2]

rich46yo... no.. I do not know thousands of cops like you do.

I do know and talk to about a dozen instructors from 6 different departments tho.. the range is at the facility I work at since we have about 500 acres.   I have watched hundreds.. maybe thousands of new and older cops shoot.

I am going by what I am seeing and what they are telling me... maybe it is just a northern kalifornia thing.   I have never seen one thing they train at that I couldn't do a better job at than 90% of em

I don't do ranges much.   most of the guys I know grew up shooting pistols at jacks and ground squirrels at all different ranges..at targets at the dump... rats and those lovely bottles.. unknown ranges... if you weren't fast...  If you didn't take your time in a hurry... you would not get to be the one who got the shot.

Granted... those days are gone...as are the days of cops who loved their guns and shot .357 mag revolvers with pride.. they shot exactly as I did... shot with em all the time... their gunfights lasted 1.7 rounds..  the new guys spray the entire neighborhood...

I have talked to the rangemasters about this and they agree that the training is not that great... that most of these guys are shooting at 3 yards because.. that is about all they can be taught to do... not because that is the only fight they will ever be in.

Don't get me wrong.. I have a good time talking to the cops I meet.. we get along fine...we joke around and I shoot some of their weapons and they mine.  when they were testing handguns I lent the group my then new Kimber.

I like and respect most of em...  I also realize that they can't be everywhere and that I am better off not counting on them saving my butt.

I am going by what the instructors tell me.   I am medium slow but accurate.  I have never failed to ace any course they have set up including a bunch of garage doors we helped em set up to be "houses" with shoot/no shoot walls.

Most of it has a very unrealistic feel to it all.

If I really thought that the only gunfight anyone would ever be in would be at 7 feet and the first one to hit the other guy won... I would carry a single action colt in a fast draw rig.

lazs

lazs

[Rich46yo]

Laz you seem like a pretty good guy so I aint saying this in an insulting manner. One of the trademarks of the "Internet Copoholic" is that they can always "shoot better then us", among other things they can do better then us.

                       The thing is tho, we are actually doing it and your not. And not just that but you probably never have and never will. Should you feel different Police Depts across the country are hiring.

                    And one big reason I dont hang around ranges or cops anymore is that many of them dont have much good to say about a lot of people they work with. Some dont have much good to say about anything.

                  I know a female team that have probably killed 4 or 5 Bgs. One look at them and you'd laugh, "and probably say some Internet copoholic thing". They dont shoot that well, aint nowhere in my class. But if they are put in a position of "me or you" they will kill you deader then fried chicken and not lose any sleep doing it.

                The biggest mistakes Ive seen armed GGs make is they rush to fast, or they dont keep their distance from the BG, or they get tunnel vision, or they dont wait for backup, or they hesitate, or they dont breath right.....printing pretty groups on a range is far down on the list.

            Want realistic training? Drive 5 blocks in a car hearing a brother screaming for help on a radio. Then run up 8 flights of a housing project. Then run thru total pandemonium where everyone passing you could be the offender. Then find out you cant get to the other guys cause theres a sniper pinning everyone down with a rifle.

                     You get my drift? Range shooting is fine and better then nothing. But if its not realistic shoot dont shoot where both you and the target are moving then its of very limited use. Even then you can be an "ace" on that and useless on the street.

                              So show a little humilty gunslinger.

[lazs2]

uhmm.. I'm not talking about civilian range instructors here... I am talking about range instructors who are all cops who get paid extra to run their departments training.

The "range" is a police only range and is not set up like a civilian range at all.

It was a lot of fun when they had the cars and stuff.   The courses I go through with them are the standard training that the cops do here.  

While I have the greatest respect for the police for the most part.....  I might remind you that almost none of you will ever be involved in a shootout.

I admit that I am a little slower than about half of em but I seem to be more accurate and I point shoot better...  I used to shoot about 2,000 rounds a month for years.. I shoot about 500 a month now just to stay in practice.

I don't know how rusty I would have to get to fail one of the police fire courses but it would be pretty rusty indeed.

I have been shot at.   I know how I reacted.   I make no gurantees on how I would react the next time or the time after but I am not all shook up about it.

My point was not to badmouth cops.. only that they are not supermen and are often not very good shots.   A civilian who takes some time to learn firearms can be every bit as effective as the average cop is all I was saying.

with that in mind...  I know that it is highly unlikely that a cop will be there when he is needed.   I would like to know that a few of the people around me  who were good guys... cops or civilians.. were armed.

lazs

[SteveBailey]

Lazs, give it up.  Tell Rich that  all cops are supermen and every one of us civilians couldn't possibly take care of ourselves because we aren't cops. This will end the argument.  Your personal life experience, personality, and knowledge do not count because you  aren't a cop, you big silly.    

[FrodeMk3]

Originally posted by MiloMorai
Not offended but I think you are out of touch with reality. How far away was the closest LEO? How much time did it take to drive to the location and this includes a busy parking lot? How long did it take the LEO from leaving his car to run through the mall to get to the scene? Was he checking the crowd for the shooter?

Maybe one of the LEOs can tell what the average response time to a bank robbery is.

What is the response time for fire trucks to get to a fire? (just for perspective)

Btw, the news this AM had another shooting at 2 churches in Colorado. A security guard killed the shooter.

The point I was trying to make, Milo, was that safety and protection are compromised whenever a policeman is not around. It does not take 6 min. for a gunman to kill you; It only takes a few milliseconds.

With this in mind, what do you suppose is more effective? A gun in a holster on you, or the one in the Policeman's holster 4 and a half blocks' away?

[SIG220]

Originally posted by Rich46yo


                The biggest mistakes Ive seen armed GGs make is they rush to fast, or they dont keep their distance from the BG, or they get tunnel vision, or they dont wait for backup,

Waiting for backup would have been a really smart thing to do in yesterday's church incident in Colorado.

Law enforcement simply cannot be everywhere all the time.   In the county where I live here in Oregon, there are many rural folks who would have to wait a very long time to receive any help.

But I see that ABC News tonight now reports that the female hero in Colorado did have a background in Law Enforcement.   So that no doubt explains why she was able to so effectively deal with the situation there.

SIG 220

[Maverick]

Laz,

What Rich was trying to convey and what Steve also cannot grasp, is that there is more to winning a tactical situation than being able to shoot well. Having the training to allow you to move and use the cover / concealment while getting into a position to shoot can be more important than making small holes in a target on a secure range. Coordinating movement and using the available reinforcement from like trained people enhances your chances for success. Merely running blind into a shooters area of interest just adds more targets for the shooter. Individuals going high diddle diddle up the middle just makes for a shooting gallery for the suspect under conditions that favor the bad guy far far more than the good guy. This gets even more complicated when there is a large building filled with lots of folks and when the good guys have no idea of the suspects location or what they look like.