Author Topic: Spitfires in tour 110: Late war  (Read 6729 times)

Offline Kazaa

  • Plutonium Member
  • *******
  • Posts: 8371
      • http://www.thefewsquadron.co.uk
Re: Spitfires in tour 110: Late war
« Reply #150 on: April 05, 2009, 09:51:38 PM »
If your being shot at then your doing it wrong. :D



"If you learn from defeat, you haven't really lost."

Offline Karnak

  • Radioactive Member
  • *******
  • Posts: 23046
Re: Spitfires in tour 110: Late war
« Reply #151 on: April 05, 2009, 09:58:19 PM »
If your being shot at then your doing it wrong. :D
That is true for all aircraft in an ideal vision of the fighter pilot, none the less the ability to take damage is a very important factor, as the Japanese Army found out with it's Ki-43 and the Japanese Navy found out with its A6M2.
Petals floating by,
      Drift through my woman's hand,
             As she remembers me-

Offline Motherland

  • Plutonium Member
  • *******
  • Posts: 8110
Re: Spitfires in tour 110: Late war
« Reply #152 on: April 05, 2009, 10:00:50 PM »
Although the Spitfire's wings are fragile, I think it is a large exaggeration to compare the Spitfire with the A6M.

Offline Kazaa

  • Plutonium Member
  • *******
  • Posts: 8371
      • http://www.thefewsquadron.co.uk
Re: Spitfires in tour 110: Late war
« Reply #153 on: April 05, 2009, 10:10:34 PM »
Well you can't have everything now can you. :D




"If you learn from defeat, you haven't really lost."

Offline Saxman

  • Plutonium Member
  • *******
  • Posts: 9155
Re: Spitfires in tour 110: Late war
« Reply #154 on: April 05, 2009, 10:33:00 PM »
The ease with with a quad .50 cal fighter can take out a Spit VIII, XIV or XVI with a burst that connects on a high deflection crossing shot...

You need quad? I can do it with a single bank of three from my F4U. :D
Ron White says you can't fix stupid. I beg to differ. Stupid will usually sort itself out, it's just a matter of making sure you're not close enough to become collateral damage.

Offline Karnak

  • Radioactive Member
  • *******
  • Posts: 23046
Re: Spitfires in tour 110: Late war
« Reply #155 on: April 05, 2009, 10:56:07 PM »
Although the Spitfire's wings are fragile, I think it is a large exaggeration to compare the Spitfire with the A6M.
I don't and I used both extensively.  I was substantially more confident of my A6M5's ability to get hit and keep fighting than I ever am in a Spitfire.  The A6M is more likely to get a pilot wound or be set on fire, true, but it is significantly more robust structurally in my experience.  And for most of the time I played, the Mosquito was more likely to be set alight than the A6M and probably about even on pilot wounds, so....
Petals floating by,
      Drift through my woman's hand,
             As she remembers me-

Offline BnZs

  • Platinum Member
  • ******
  • Posts: 4207
Re: Spitfires in tour 110: Late war
« Reply #156 on: April 05, 2009, 11:38:37 PM »
I don't and I used both extensively.  I was substantially more confident of my A6M5's ability to get hit and keep fighting than I ever am in a Spitfire.  The A6M is more likely to get a pilot wound or be set on fire, true, but it is significantly more robust structurally in my experience.  And for most of the time I played, the Mosquito was more likely to be set alight than the A6M and probably about even on pilot wounds, so....

If this is true, then it needs looking at. The Spit wing was tested at speeds and G-loads that would break a Zeke.
"Crikey, sir. I'm looking forward to today. Up diddly up, down diddly down, whoops, poop, twiddly dee - decent scrap with the fiendish Red Baron - bit of a jolly old crash landing behind enemy lines - capture, torture, escape, and then back home in time for tea and medals."

Offline Karnak

  • Radioactive Member
  • *******
  • Posts: 23046
Re: Spitfires in tour 110: Late war
« Reply #157 on: April 06, 2009, 01:54:06 AM »
If this is true, then it needs looking at. The Spit wing was tested at speeds and G-loads that would break a Zeke.
I don't know about that.  Speeds, sure, but G loads?  The A6M was actually a pretty robust design and the Japanese alloy was stronger for a given weight, though it did corrode.
Petals floating by,
      Drift through my woman's hand,
             As she remembers me-

Offline FALCONWING

  • Silver Member
  • ****
  • Posts: 943
Re: Spitfires in tour 110: Late war
« Reply #158 on: April 06, 2009, 12:10:13 PM »
I started flying a ww2 flight sim just so I could fly a spit...any person with european background and love of pre-American involvement (i.e. Battle of Britain) would have been captivated by it...

So why should it shock anybody that it is such a popular bird and a favorite of new players???

BTW for any new player the spit5 is the most forgiving plane in my opinion...least flaps etc...best turning...most stable

I quit flying the spit because it couldn't catch the folks i wanted to catch (fw190d9s, f4u1cs, p51ds, tempests) and its ammo load wasn't all well suited for long distance 6 shots which seem to consume more ammo for me then deflection shots...in furballs, base defense, cv defense situations i used them exclusively until about 1 year ago when i fell in love with the ammo load and turning of the niki....
SECRET ANTI-BBS BULLY CLUB

Offline Shuffler

  • Radioactive Member
  • *******
  • Posts: 26827
Re: Spitfires in tour 110: Late war
« Reply #159 on: April 06, 2009, 12:48:35 PM »
<<< has lots of perks. Hardly ever uses any. I should ask Skuzzy if I can put them up for auction.  ;)
80th FS "Headhunters"

S.A.P.P.- Secret Association Of P-38 Pilots (Lightning In A Bottle)

Offline BnZs

  • Platinum Member
  • ******
  • Posts: 4207
Re: Spitfires in tour 110: Late war
« Reply #160 on: April 06, 2009, 01:12:22 PM »
If I can today, I will try to test the the fragility of the SpitXVI today.

If I can't make it to play today, I suggest the following methodology for anyone who wishes to to bring some actual data to this issue, instead of anectdote. Go in to the DA, have any 109 equipped with 20MM motorkannon fly at 200 and tap single rounds of 20MM into a wingroot on a SpitXVI. I suggest a single MG 151 as the test weapon because it should be suffeciently easy to fire off single rounds,  what with its slower ROF. Count the number of rounds required. Repeat the test for the A6M and any other plane you wish to compare. Please film the testing, for obvious reasons.
"Crikey, sir. I'm looking forward to today. Up diddly up, down diddly down, whoops, poop, twiddly dee - decent scrap with the fiendish Red Baron - bit of a jolly old crash landing behind enemy lines - capture, torture, escape, and then back home in time for tea and medals."

Offline LLogann

  • Persona Non Grata
  • Platinum Member
  • ******
  • Posts: 4947
      • Candidz.com
Re: Spitfires in tour 110: Late war
« Reply #161 on: April 06, 2009, 01:24:39 PM »
ANd then looking at K/D, the 14 shines once again.

Nothing outstanding about that at all.
See Rule #4
Now I only pay because of my friends.

Offline Crash Orange

  • Silver Member
  • ****
  • Posts: 911
Re: Spitfires in tour 110: Late war
« Reply #162 on: April 06, 2009, 01:45:20 PM »
I've spent quite a bit of time there. The Tempest, Chog, and F4U-4 are very popular, however, just from personal observation, I don't see their aggregate use as being any higher than 50%. They would have to comprise at least 60% of all sorties flown for each to reach the magic 20% of use mark, and even at that, if one of them were more popular than the others, thus taking a bit of the "market share", it would knock the other two below the magic 20% figure. Any person who thinks about it will realize that the 20% figure is an impossible standard to meet with today's plane variety and the number of die-hards who only fly in their favorite types.

I think you're looking at it incorrectly. You're looking at the "market share" of all the unperked planes, then looking at the market share of currently perked planes when they all become unperked. Neither of those methods gives us any idea of what we'd see if one of the currently perked fighters was unperked but the others remained perked. Were that to happen, the popularity of the C-hog in particular would probably spike due to pent-up demand, then settle to a level significantly higher than any of the remaining perked fighters. I don't know whether it would reach 20%, but I bet it would be markedly higher than 10%.

WRT the larger discussion, I don't think you're giving firepower enough consideration. It's not just that the .50s are inferior to the Hispanos, you also have to factor in the imbalance in ammo load for the XVI - you either go home early or are left with a grand total of two .50s. At that point the C-hog still has four cannons left with nearly half their ammo remaining. That is no mean difference.

There's also the issue of versatility. Some of the XVI's weaknesses - low ord loadout, low ammo for its cannons, short range, and fragility - make it unsuitable for a variety of missions. With only 240 rounds of 20mm and little ability to take punishment it's a mediocre bomber interceptor at best. It's a less than stellar jabo because of the payload, it's not a good choice for AAA suppression because it's relatively fragile, and it's limited as a bomber escort by its short legs. It's a great base defender and good, but because of its low endurance not great, as an air superiority fighter on offense. And it isn't available for carrier ops.

By contrast, the C-hog is an excellent choice for all of those missions. IMHO that's one crucial component of unbalancing. The Spit XVI will never unbalance the game as much as an unperked C-hog or 4-hog might because there are so many situations where only a 1-plane fanatic would choose to fly it, and it's not as overwhelmingly superior at the things it does well as the Tempest, 262, and 163 are.

The last argument I don't think I've seen addressed here is who benefits. Unperk the Spit XIV, Tempest, or 262 and you're helping the experienced pilots with enough skill to take advantage of their strengths. If the critics are right and the XVI is popular because it's the best "Easy mode" fighter, perking it will hurt less skilled and experienced pilots, who have it tough enough as it is, more than anyone. It's not like the XVI is a wonder weapon that lets any 2-weeker smash through formations leaving veteran pilots and their planes littered on the ground left and right. If they're flying Spits and learning to fight and not just take one pass and run home, that's a good thing, isn't it?

I'm not big on the perk system as it's currently implemented anyway. I understand and agree with the reason for having it, but while it may be a sound strategy in a real war, in a game like AH giving better equipment to the people who already dominate the game is counterproductive, and losing the perks only when you die only reinforces that imbalance and gives people that much more motivation to fly timidly.  :frown:

Offline SlapShot

  • Plutonium Member
  • *******
  • Posts: 9121
Re: Spitfires in tour 110: Late war
« Reply #163 on: April 06, 2009, 02:33:52 PM »
It is easy to always have an argument when you bother to inform yourself, and frankly, apparently have more upstairs than many of those arguing with you.

:rofl
SlapShot - Blue Knights

Guppy: "The only risk we take is the fight, and since no one really dies, the reward is the fight."

Offline Karnak

  • Radioactive Member
  • *******
  • Posts: 23046
Re: Spitfires in tour 110: Late war
« Reply #164 on: April 06, 2009, 02:48:56 PM »
If I can today, I will try to test the the fragility of the SpitXVI today.

If I can't make it to play today, I suggest the following methodology for anyone who wishes to to bring some actual data to this issue, instead of anectdote. Go in to the DA, have any 109 equipped with 20MM motorkannon fly at 200 and tap single rounds of 20MM into a wingroot on a SpitXVI. I suggest a single MG 151 as the test weapon because it should be suffeciently easy to fire off single rounds,  what with its slower ROF. Count the number of rounds required. Repeat the test for the A6M and any other plane you wish to compare. Please film the testing, for obvious reasons.
Last time I did such a test it was on the tail durability of the B-17G, Lancaster Mk III, Bf110G-2 and Mosquito Mk VI.  We used the P-38's single cannon as the "standard" AH damage units seem to be thought in either Browning .50 cal or Hispano Mk II hits.

The results for our test at the time, strikes hitting the tail cones, were consistant across multiple tests.  B-17G took 17 Hispano hits to lose its entire tail.  Lancaster took 14.  Mosquito took 3.  Bf110G took 2.  This was in AH1 though, so things may have changed.


In your testing you should also check the wing tips, not just the root.
Petals floating by,
      Drift through my woman's hand,
             As she remembers me-