Spitfires in tour 110: Late war

[Masherbrum]

You realize it's tough to blame you for things if you make sense and are right don't you?

    <engages damage control for my Current 4 year Term> "Ladies and Gentlemen of the Press, my wife hijacked my keyboard and made sense."

[Anaxogoras]

Ok Saxman, for the record:

Both at 75% fuel, zoom climb from ~50'.  Engaged auto-climb-on-speed (100mph) after retained dive-speed reached 400mph, then auto-climb-on-angle to hold the maximum climb and recorded the maximum altitude achieved:

F4U-1C
5900'

SpitXVI
6400'

The Spitfire XVI out zoom-climbs the F4U-1C.

[Saxman]

If I test this will you accept the results?

Already did.

Process: Took each aircraft up to 10,000ft. Leveled out to accelerate to 300mph TAS, then entered a 30-degree dive until each aircraft accelerated to 400mph TAS. Pulled up and put it in auto-climb, with the climb speed set to 150mph. Tracked the altitude at which the climb started to account for the differences in acceleration, noted the maximum ROC reached per E6B, and the altitude at which each aircraft settled back at 150mph auto-climb. Except where noted, all aircraft were loaded with full internal fuel, and used WEP on climb.

Aircraft	Alt at Start of Climb	Maximum ROC	Altitude at Peak	Net Gain
Spitfire Mk. XVI	8000ft	~20,000fpm	12,500ft	4500ft
F4U-1C	7500ft	~19,500fpm	12,000ft	4500ft
F4U-1A (75% Fuel)	7500ft	~19,500fpm	12,500ft	5000ft
F4U-4 (No WEP)	7500ft	~20,500fpm	12,500ft	5000ft

I meant to do a high-speed, low-angle climb at climb speed of 300mph as well, but didn't have time to run that one.

[Saxman]

Well that's interesting, because as you can see, I got ENTIRELY different results.

[Dream Child]

The 1C is only faster below 5k ft, and then by a small margin.  Above 5k ft the XVI is faster.

F4U's can't run out of WEP?

You missed the point. The Spit 16 needs WEP just to stay even with the -1C when the -1C isn't using WEP, so there is no possibility of the 16 running from a fight on the deck.

You don't.  Recall the Spit XIV.

Ah yes, the Spit 14. Can match the F4U-4 in speed at most altitudes. Significantly faster at all altitudes than the 16, though not as maneuverable. Few aircraft can run from it at any altitude.

[Dream Child]

Well that's interesting, because as you can see, I got ENTIRELY different results.

That's because he started in level flight, not diving to speeds greater than the plane is capable of sustaining, so his test didn't require much ability to hold momentum.

[Saxman]

Pay attention DC, we both began our actual zoom climbs AFTER diving to 400mph. The main differences in our test were:

Starting altitude
Fuel loads
Climb Speed

Also, Gavagai didn't specify if he used TAS or IAS. I went with TAS so differences in IAS at varying altitude wouldn't come into play.

[Anaxogoras]

Tas/ias isn't significant at 50 ft, but it was tas.

The difference is that I went for maximum zoom, whereas you leveled at 150mph.  I had the autopilot hold the aircraft nearly straight up until it stalled.

[BnZs]

I cannot understand how the methodology of using auto-climb. Both aircraft can climb at 150mph IAS until their superchargers become insufficient. Anax's test more realistically reflects the sort of climb angle and thus performance that would be useful if attempting combat maneuvers such as the rope. Anax's test began at 50 feet, so IAS and TAS would be practically identical.

 In any case, neither test shows a significant difference in zoom capacity. 500 feet is well within guns range. Neither airplane seems to have much edge in zoom, but the SpitXVI indisputably has the edge in weight-to-power ratio.

[BnZs]

If you are using the 16 as a high speed b/z plane I would humbly suggest you are using the wrong tool for the job.  The advantage of being able to roll fast at high speeds is a moot point when the planes strength is not its speed.

Are you kidding me or what?
The SpitXVI is clearly one of the premier E-fighters in the game. It handles well in dives, has a zoom that apparently compares favorably with that of unperked Corsairs, a superb climb rate, and superb retention of E in maneuvers. ON top of this, it has a good turn radius and excellent turn rate. Well flown, it has the potential to dominate almost anything from an E advantage...and it is top notch at building an E-advantage. P-51s, D9s, 109 and etc. are famous for b'n'zing, but a SpitXVI with alt to convert for closure is far more problematic than any of these.

Now you can name all the fighters that run away from fights better than Spits, but who really cares? The SpitXVI stands a fair chance against every unperked fighter it can't outrun. It is other fighters that need to be able to run away from SpitXVIs...only a great many of them can't! Unperked fighters that can challenge the SpitXVI's E-performance are almost all significantly less maneuverable.

You don't fly a Spit because of how fast it is.  You fly them because they handle so well slow when turning.

This is just completely wrong...you and I both know there are plenty of planes which make better pure turners than the SpitXVI, VIII, or even the IX. If pure turning were key, then the SpitV would be most popular. Even better, Zeke, HurriIIC, or Fm2.

No, the strength of the later model Spits is that they have excellent E-performance *and* almost tremendous maneuverability in relation to most other planes that can challenge them in the E-performance department.

Once again, I think we are letting the fact that the SpitfireXVI is almost always flown poorly and/or flown against terrible odds obscure the plane's potential.

An otherwise inferior fighter with good high-speed roll rate can conceivably use this to get the VIII out-of-plane for either an overshoot or enough separation to escape, but if they are able to, I have screwed up somewhere.  That move is just too easy to counter.

Roll-rate disadvantage to work with is better than no disadvantages to work with at all. I am trying very hard to not go in for perking the SpitVIII here, why are you trying so hard to convince me that *another* Spit should be perked? 

[Masherbrum]

Are you kidding me or what?
The SpitXVI is clearly one of the premier E-fighters in the game. It handles well in dives, has a zoom that apparently compares favorably with that of unperked Corsairs, a superb climb rate, and superb retention of E in maneuvers. ON top of this, it has a good turn radius and excellent turn rate. Well flown, it has the potential to dominate almost anything from an E advantage...and it is top notch at building an E-advantage. P-51s, D9s, 109 and etc. are famous for b'n'zing, but a SpitXVI with alt to convert for closure is far more problematic than any of these.

Now you can name all the fighters that run away from fights better than Spits, but who really cares? The SpitXVI stands a fair chance against every unperked fighter it can't outrun. It is other fighters that need to be able to run away from SpitXVIs...only a great many of them can't! Unperked fighters that can challenge the SpitXVI's E-performance are almost all significantly less maneuverable.

This is just completely wrong...you and I both know there are plenty of planes which make better pure turners than the SpitXVI, VIII, or even the IX. If pure turning were key, then the SpitV would be most popular. Even better, Zeke, HurriIIC, or Fm2.

No, the strength of the later model Spits is that they have excellent E-performance *and* almost tremendous maneuverability in relation to most other planes that can challenge them in the E-performance department.

Once again, I think we are letting the fact that the SpitfireXVI is almost always flown poorly and/or flown against terrible odds obscure the plane's potential.

Roll-rate disadvantage to work with is better than no disadvantages to work with at all. I am trying very hard to not go in for perking the SpitVIII here, why are you trying so hard to convince me that *another* Spit should be perked? 

There are so many holes in your posts, they aren't even worth dissecting.   

[BnZs]

There are so many holes in your posts, they aren't even worth dissecting.   

How convenient! Holes that are there, but you cannot be bothered to find.

Speaking of holes, I own a gold mine...I can't be bothered to go down into it and bring you any samples, but I am willing to part with it for almost nothing...you should really snatch it up quickly before someone else does!

[Masherbrum]

How convenient! Holes that are there, but you cannot be bothered to find.

BTW, I have a gold mine...I can't be bothered to go down into it and bring you any samples, but I will part with it for a tidy sum...you should really snatch it up quickly before someone else does!

Damn right I cannot be bothered.   Listening to you carry on is funny, you always have "an argument."   Keep on picking in Spixteens, you are the bestest AH pile-it.   

[BnZs]

Damn right I cannot be bothered.   Listening to you carry on is funny, you always have "an argument."

It is easy to always have an argument when you bother to inform yourself, and frankly, apparently have more upstairs than many of those arguing with you.

 Keep on picking in Spixteens, you are the bestest AH pile-it.   

Insult is the last refuge of the out-argued. Oddly, it also seems to be your first and only refuge.

BTW, this little sarcastic praise you like to give out, per this last example...I've seen you use it over and over again. Steve or someone posts a film of a nifty move and you have to snipe. It is a pattern, it is a fixation. You are apparently the one who can't stand the implication that anyone is worth their salt except Karaya.

[Karnak]

You keep ignoring the incredible fragility of Spitfires in AH as well.  They are possibly less able to take damage and keep flying than A6Ms as their wings pop off at almost the slightest hit.  The ease with with a quad .50 cal fighter can take out a Spit VIII, XIV or XVI with a burst that connects on a high deflection crossing shot is a very significant shortcoming of the Spitfire in AH and heavily limits their ability to be "ace of aces" mounts.