Ok, lets talk about the F4U-1C Corsair.

[bloom25]

  Reading my post over, it does seem a little negative.  That was not my intention, and it was certainly not my intention to make it seem like a flame to Karnak.  It was simply meant to state my opinion on the subject, hence the line at the end that it is only my opinion and should be taken as such.  The truth is, Karnak, that you are right in many ways.  The f4u-1c is probably easier to get kills in than some of the other planes.  IMO, however, it is not quite the uber-plane it is made out to be.  It does have many weaknesses, and respecting the power of it's guns, it isn't too hard to defeat if you can avoid a front quarters engagement with one.  If you get on the 6 of an f4, the f4 drivers only option is to run and extend, just like the p51.  I honestly have no explaination for the low k/d of the f4u-1d, except for the fact that it is fighting air to air mainly (versus vulching).

You are right about numbers produced though, only about 200 were made, but nearly all saw combat in the PTO.  (It was actually produced after production of the f4u-1d began.)  For some reason the US decided to stick with the .50 cal.  I personally don't know the reason why, perhaps the common use of .50 by every other US fighter made supply of ammunition easier to obtain.  My own guess is that 4 20mm was simply overkill for the type of aircraft that the f4 was engaging in the Pacific.  It could have also been due to the fact that the f4u-4 was released soon after the f4u-1c, and producing 2 different models was inefficient.  (Another possiblility is that .50 cal is more destructive than it is here in AH.)  Whatever the reason is, I don't believe it will matter so much once we get other new planes added to the planeset.  (Didn't Pyro say a while back that HTC is working on a way to implement new fighters without unbalancing the planeset???   )

I personally say leave the f4u-1c in, and lets see what happens in the next few versions.

Once again, I apolgize for the angry tone of my previous post.

bloom25
THUNDERBIRDS

[funked]

I think the statistical dominance of the most heavily armed airplane should make it obvious that armament is over-emphasized in this sim due to a faulty gunnery model.

Quite simply, 4 x 20mm should not be that much more effective than 6 x 50 cal.

[This message has been edited by funked (edited 03-22-2000).]

[Skorpyon]

Having been on the receiving end of a 1-C lead shower more times than I would like, I can understand the many objections... BUT... I also like to study the combat styles of my opponents, to possibly learn from them.  Vulching aside, the times I have been killed in aerial combat by the C hawg have involved some very smart flying by the pilot.  Choosing his targets carefully, not engaging more than one or two before extending and regaining alt/E, etc.  This is one of the primary factors in the 1-C's killing power.. the guy behind the stick.  Again, I have to say "BUT"... I do question the apparent increase in lethality between the cannons on the hawg, and a similar number of cannons on any other plane in the set.  Was there that much of a difference between the types of 20mm rounds between allied and axis craft, or are these a bit over modeled?  There is no doubt that getting this plane in to position to kill repeatedly takes a great deal of skill (it's an absolute pig once you lose E), but any other plane in the same position very seldom one or two pings me to death anywhere nearly as often as a C hawg, even if it is carrying comparable armament.  Hats off to the drivers of these beasts.. the successful ones are using their skills to the fullest.. but in my opinion the a/c they are flying so skillfully does kill, round for round, much easier than any other in the arena.  Just a humble, inconsequential opinion.

[eskimo]

I agree with Karnak and think it should go.
eskimo

[gatt]

Well, jokes apart, the problem is: we have only one rare a/c and guess what, she is the king of the arena.

IMHO, we have 2 choices: throw into the arena the other rare birds (like the TA-152) to make it more interesting (and balanced) or leave the cannon-hog out.

In other words, do we want an historical  arena or not? I'm not particularly interested in a what-if arena. WWII air war would have been different with the sky full of buzzing cannon-hogs.

Gatt
4°Stormo CT

[RAM]

Why all people INSISTS in this?...???
F4U1-C WAS USED IN COMBAT, not in big numbers but for sure EXTENSIVELY over OKINAWA and Jabo and Sweep missions over Japan on last days of the war. Had FAR more use than Ta152, A7M (wich NEVER flown a combat mission)...etc etc etc

To whine about F4U1-C is like whining in the future about the A-5. Be Ready cuz it has also 4 20mms, and climbs and accelerates FAR better than the hawg  

[crabofix]

 

Originally posted by funked:

Quite simply, 4 x 20mm should not be that much more effective than 6 x 50 cal.
]

20 mm =.80 cal, the 20mm shell is explosive.
and there´s not to much diffrance in firerate. 6 machineguns firing a 2 sec burst will put about 49 kg of lead into the air.
The 4x20mm will at the same time, put about 61,5 kg and theese 61,5 kilos also explode!
(theres apc ammo to, both in .50 and 20mm)

Crabofix "had any fresh fish latly?"
Svenska Kungliga Flygvapnet

[gatt]

Did I really say TA-152? Oh, forgive me, I meant a well modeled FW190D-9. Please.

[Vermillion]

Ok

First off, Karnak, until you can seperate Vulch kills from air to air kills, your statistics are meaningless.

Second, the F4U-1C was used in combat extensively, its easy to prove, and those that keep claiming otherwise are making themselves look stupid.

Third, the C-Hog is not our only "rare" aircraft. The N1K2-J had a production of less than 300 aircraft. And I find this a really strange statement coming from Gatt. How many C.205's were made (my memory is saying 200-400)? Most importantly, how many were actually made and used by the Italians, and how many of the total production were made by Germany after the Italian armistice (again my memory says over half the total production)?

Guys, if you don't try to take off from CAP'd fields, or partake of the HO, the F4U-1C is easy meat.

In this tour, I had died ONCE to a F4U-1C. And that was when I was stupid and allowed one I was BnZ'ing to pull up his nose and get a vertical HO shot on me and he won.

On the other hand, 84% of my deaths this tour are too Spit IX's and N1K2-J's.

And please don't think I am defending this plane because I fly it. I don't think I have a single sortie in it this tour. I just hate the idea of people complaining to remove a plane because they make poor decisions (ie takeoff from vulched fields) and die alot because of it.

Sheezzz... this is a stupid arguement. As soon as the next version comes out, people will just fly the Typhoon instead. Same guns, better vision, and much faster.

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Vermillion
**MOL**, Men of Leisure
"Desperately trying to figure out why Kamikaze Pilots wore helmets"

[RAM]

Gatt, Fw190D-9 is a MUST in AH, sooner or later we'll have it. D-9 had more or less 1000 planes produced, 700 reached front line units. Saw EXTENSIVE combat with Luftwaffe, much more that C205, N1K2...and in the same league as the SpitXIV.
Ta152 only saw combat in JG301 in VERY last days on the war. If I dont recall bad, only 50 units reached the front, but I'm talking by memory.

So F4U1-C is OK, and FW190D-9 is a MUST be
(OOOOKKK, SpitXIV too...but AFTER fw190D-9   )

[This message has been edited by RAM (edited 03-22-2000).]

[Fariz]

 

Originally posted by Vermillion:
Ok

And please don't think I am defending this plane because I fly it. I don't think I have a single sortie in it this tour. I just hate the idea of people complaining to remove a plane because they make poor decisions (ie takeoff from vulched fields) and die alot because of it.

92.7% agree with you  

Fariz

[gatt]

From Vermillion:
 

Third, the C-Hog is not our only "rare" aircraft. The N1K2-J had a production of less than 300 aircraft. And I find this a really strange statement coming from Gatt. How many C.205's were made (my memory is saying 200-400)? Most importantly, how many were actually made and used by the Italians, and how many of the total production were made by Germany after the Italian armistice (again my memory says over half the total production)?

I understand that HTC modeled the C.205 becouse an italian fighter was badly needed among online sims. If I'm wrong, please feel free to ask for the "Veltro" write-off.

If you want italian fighters and if you have to model a mid/late plane set you *must* choose the C.205 (some 280 built, all in Italy), regardless of the numbers. They fought from early 1943 till the end of the war, from North Africa to North Italy, against DAF, RAF and USAAF.
Little air force and building-power mean little numbers. Please dont compare apples with oranges.

And yes, my Ta-152 request is indeed stupid. BUT, the earlier you'll introduce the D-9 Dora, the Spit MkXIV, the La-7, the Tempest and some late IJN-IJAF kites, the better will be for the community.

Gatt
4°Stormo CT


[This message has been edited by gatt (edited 03-22-2000).]

[Toad]

 

Originally posted by funked:
I think the statistical dominance of the most heavily armed airplane should make it obvious that armament is over-emphasized in this sim due to a faulty gunnery model.

Quite simply, 4 x 20mm should not be that much more effective than 6 x 50 cal.

[This message has been edited by funked (edited 03-22-2000).]

I don't think these stats mean much, particularly due to the field capture gameplay model.

Let's see stats with vultches removed; I'll bet the -C drops off the table then.

Outside of field capture/vultching where it is very good/excellent, the only role for the -1C is B&Z. It sucks at everything else and performance-wise the -51 is a far better B&Z airplane. The -1C is a good buff killer down low due to the gun package; it sucks at killing high buffs due to performance limitations.

As for 4x20 being the same as 6x.50, that can mean two things couldn't it?

Either the 20's are overmodeled or the .50's are undermodeled.

Of course, it may be the Pyro has both of them pretty well right on and people just can't recalibrate their unsubstantiated opinions, too  

Side question: Does anyone know FOR SURE if a projectile "disappears" at a certain range? For example, does a .50 round just get dropped from the host at say 1.6K from the shooter? Or does it continue in the game until gravity eventually takes over and it hits the ground?

[mx22]

Ok, to say that spit is the plane for newbies in AH, won't be all that accurate. Many newcomers choose to fly F4U-1C, it may be easier to die in it, but chances are that you will kill someone before dieing.
As I noted above, F4U-1C's pilots are mostly trigger happy vulch guys. They have little to offer when you engage them on equal or favorable terms, they will most likely try to disengage. Catch up with them and kill 'em. Ohh almost forgot, if the guy bails out, do your country a favor, kill the chute.

mx22

[Vermillion]

Gatt, I have nothing against the Veltro and I enjoy it being in the game.

The only problem I had was that you were using the "get rid of the F4U-1C because it is the only rare bird" arguement. Obviously, it is not. And I was pointing out that the C.205 and the N1K2 are vulnerable to the same arguement.

Many very good aircraft were made in small production quanities in comparison to the huge industrial output of the United States, and the Soviet Union.

The problem is that once you go down that path, and validate that arguement, then players will pick and choose what planes they don't like and try to start crusades to have them removed from the game. Its a slippery slope.

 

BUT, the earlier you'll introduce the D-9 Dora, the Spit MkXIV, the La-7, the Tempest and some late IJN-IJAF kites, the better will be for the community.

I couldn't agree more, and just about everyone who reads these boards knows I have been fighting this crusade for quite some time.  

------------------
Vermillion
**MOL**, Men of Leisure
"Desperately trying to figure out why Kamikaze Pilots wore helmets"