Ok, lets talk about the F4U-1C Corsair.

[ra]

<<Quite simply, 4 x 20mm should not be that much more effective than 6 x 50 cal.
>>

In the 'Report of Joint Fighter Conference' (1944), the Navy rep said that the 20mm was 2-3 times more effective than the .50 cal, depending on range.  He was really enthusiastic about the Navy transitioning to the 20mm.  He said 4x20mm was comparable to 12 x .50 cal, just as the .50 cal was 2-3 times more effective than the .30 cal.

ra  

[-towd_]

hey the guns suc but the the real problem is the dang thing has a great sustained turn rate. a mistake that torq uses again and again to kill, the bugger did 3 really impossible  180 loops to ho me 3 times , what people are objectin to is the trick where you pull this impossible crap to out sustained turn a spit or any other plane for the kill lose the bullcrap great low speed proformance and utterly stupidly impossible 180 deg 20 g turns and it wont be a issue

[Mox]

 

Originally posted by Mighty1:
Said it before and I'll say it again ..it's not the plane it's the pilot.

A good pilot can make any plane look Uber.

But can a F4UC pilot get the same results if he/she was flying the F4UD?  Of course not.

It's the guns not the plane.

leave the plane and nerf the guns a "little" and the majority of the players would be happy.  

IMHO

Mox
The Wrecking Crew

[Karnak]

Yes, the 20mm is MUCH more effective thanthe 50 cal, but this is correct historicly.  Every source I have backs that up.

Vermillion, I have to admit that I went off of cursory information when I said that the F4U-1C saw little combat, however I stand by my position that the Spitfire Mk XIV and Fw-190D-9 saw much more.  Even your example N1K2 saw more, but because Japanese fuel is being modeled, the N1K2 is hamstrung and does not stand out as a statistical sore thumb (Saburo Sakai thought the N1K series was junk by the way).

Mighty1, the idea that all the good pilots are flying the F4U-1C is statisticly false.  With that many kills/deaths there is ample evidence that a broad skill spectrum of pilots are flying it.  The idea behind you post is true when dealing with a single plane/pilot but not when refering to 100.

Everybody, the data is difficult to interpet.  It is after all a gross simplification of a complex thing, so I will grant that it might not be as imbalanced as it looks, but it looks REAL bad.  I would like to see certain other aircraft added to the sim, my choices would be different than many of you.  Because I prefer late war fighters, this is my personal list, balanced for what I think is fair and by what I like:

A6M5c (Japanese fliers deserve a new fighter and its my 2nd favorite kite)
YAK-3/9 (Russian fliers need another kite)
Spitfire Mk XIV (Razorback please)(its my favorite kite and the Brit fliers deserve a late war kite, Americans have the P-51D, P-38L and F4U-1C, Germans have the Bf-109G-10 which seems to effectively be a K-4)
Fw-190D-9 or Fw-190A-5 (An anti-fighter Fw would be nice)
Ju-88 (bombers aren't my thing, but we need more)
Lancaster (The other heavy bomber we need, balaces its greater bomb load with less firepower)
Pe-2 (Russian Mosquito)
Mosquito Mk VI (British Mosquito       )
G4M (Light structure, 20mm defensive fire)
P-47D (Tough, ugly, effective and common)
T-34/85 (Best all round Allied tank of the war)
M4 Sherman (Zippo lighter, but common as dirt)
Wirblwind (Great anti-aircraft vehicle, 4x20mm)
and last but not least an new terain set so that vehicles can hide.

On another note, the F4U attained its kill ratio by shooting down IJA trainees and unskilled replacements during and after the Marianas Turkey Shoot.  What it is facing here is an entirely different thing.

Sisu

[This message has been edited by Karnak (edited 03-22-2000).]

[mx22]

 

Originally posted by Karnak:
Spitfire Mk XIV (Razorback please

No way, we already have Spit9 and Spit5 with what you call Razorback canopies (I think it was called different in RAF, not sure though). We need Spit14 with bubble canopy so I can start truly enjoy AH landscape

mx22

[Karnak]

Mx22, yeah, but the bubble canopy Spits are UGLY. (IMHO)  They took the prettiest plane and turned it into one of the ugliest.

Sisu

[This message has been edited by Karnak (edited 03-22-2000).]

[Mox]

 

Originally posted by indian:
You are talking about a plane that has to flown properly to get kills and counting vulch fest kills to add to your blind stupidity it does not unbalance the game the game is growing every month
Lets stop these stupid post right now this is stupid. Pull the -1C pull all the cannons.

I'll start by saying I'm not a good fighter pilot and my scores reflect it.

I can get a MUCH better kill ratio in the HogC, much more than any other plane here.
All I have to do is get a ping or 2, or 3 and even a trainee pilot can do that given enough time.

The Hogs cannons compensate some for the lack of the ability to fly the plane well.  The really good pilots here that fly the HogC are using their skill plus the superior advantage the guns give them to make them super lethal!  

Some of the HogC pilots are VERY good pilots and I'm sure they would do well in any plane here but few of them would do as good without the hogs cannons (the way they are now).  

Indian, your right the game is growing everyday and people will always look for things that give them advantage over others, it's in our nature.  I'm sure we will have these types of debates about a lot of future vehicles, guns, planes, terrain, and just about anything else in the game.  Most of us here are paying customers now and if many of us feel there's a game balance problem HiTech will likely look into the problem and validate the problem or dismiss it.

Just my 2cents....

Mox
The Wrecking Crew


[This message has been edited by Mox (edited 03-22-2000).]

[Dead Man Flying]

 

Originally posted by Mox:

The Hogs cannons compensate some for the lack of the ability to fly the plane well.  The really good pilots here that fly the HogC are using their skill plus the superior advantage the guns give them to make them super lethal!  

I agree.  Am I the only one here who noticed the F4U-1D has the *worst* k/d ratio of any fighter in AH?  While the difference in k/d ratio between the two models (~2:1 vs. 0.66:1) may be due in part to pilot skill, surely the guns *do* matter.

Just saying.  

-- Todd/DMF

[Minotaur]

Shake it Bake it...

Slice it Dice it...

Vulch it Mulch it...

Anyway you look at it, Karnak's stats do not lie.  The F4U-1C is dominate.  No arguement for or against can dispute that.  The stats are facts.  One can only dispute what the stats may or may not describe.

IMO the F4U-1C dominates for three reasons:

• Very lethal guns that allow more snap shot kills
• The aircraft performs well allowing many opportunities to shoot
• The aircraft is tougher than most of the oponents that it faces

Toss out the rest.  -Or-  Maybe just let it rest.    

------------------
Mino
The Wrecking Crew

[This message has been edited by Minotaur (edited 03-22-2000).]

[Nashwan]

Karnak, I'd agree with almost everything on your list, but to say the bubble-canopy spits are ugly marks you as obviously insane.
]http://www.madasafish.com/~nashwan/Spitfire2.jpg[/img][/url]
I'd better agree with you though, you may be a pyschopath.

[This message has been edited by Nashwan (edited 03-22-2000).]

[Duckwing6]

[Steam mode]
Heck .. i'm reading all this OH MY GOOOD WHAT AN UBER WELL PERFORMING Dweeb Ship ...

I just don't get it .. I'm flying HOG exclusively (wow one plane wonder eh) and i'm flying both the C and the D.

I admitt that in high threat situations i rather take the C because then i don't have to wear a bogie down but i can kill it with a snap shot OR a very short tracking sollution.

BUT did any of you guys that are bashing on the HOG so often try and actually FLY it ??

I hear it's got a "GREAT" sustained turn performance -> NOT !

It BLEEDS E

It climbs SLOW

it's reasonable fast but EVERY plane out accelerates it and several can outrunn it...

it's got the same guns thanthe NIKI and nobody jells tone down the Niki.

Yea a lot of Pilots who fly the HOG do HO's -> BUT in a LOT of cases this is your ONLY option against enemys that climb better, accelerate better, turn better and are only a tad slower.

Don't BASH an airplane because of stats that aren't reflecting the whole picture and because some pilots just have better technique and E management than you !

[/steam mode]


------------------
 
Phillip "Duckwing6" Artweger
Flight Officer "E" Flight
Skeleton Crew

[This message has been edited by Duckwing6 (edited 03-22-2000).]

[Karnak]

Duckwing6, you and others keep insinuating that pilots who fly the F4U-1C are better than the pilots who fly other aircraft.  Why?  Where is your evidence of this?

INTRODUCTION TO STATISTICS
When you have numbers that reach into the thousands, it statisticly nullifies the "better pilots equal better kill ratios" argument.  It does this because in a large sample there will be approximately the same number of good and bad pilots flying each aircraft.  Slight statistical differences can be accounted for by slightly more "ace" pilots flying that particular aircraft.  Large statistical differences can only be accounted for by something that is a known, universal, such as the F4U-1C on one hand and the Fw-190A-8 on the other.  Therefore we can tell that the kill/death ratio difference of these two aircraft is due, mostly, to the aircraft and not the pilots.
What the statistics can't tell us is what it is about them that causes the difference.  In the case of the Spitfire MkIX we can posit that AKDejaVu's explantion is the reason its kill/death ratio is even.  He reasons, using logical and demonstratable evidence, that the Spitfire MkIX has an even kill/death ratio even though it is a good fighter because of they way it is used. Because of its fast take-off and good low speed performance it is frequently used to scramble to defend an airfield.  Fighting this way puts it at an energy disadvatage and its even kill/death ratio can be interpeted as a demonstration of its effectiveness despite fighting from a disadvantage.  However in looking at the F4U-1C and Fw-190A-8 it is less clear why there is such a larg gap.  The two aircraft are armed in a very similar fashion and both have poor low speed handling, so they should be used in a similar manner.  If that is true, then the explantion would be that the F4U-1C is much better than the Fw-190A-8.

Sisu

[This message has been edited by Karnak (edited 03-22-2000).]

[Mox]

 

Originally posted by Duckwing6:
BUT did any of you guys that are bashing on the HOG so often try and actually FLY it ??
I hear it's got a "GREAT" sustained turn performance -> NOT !
It BLEEDS E
It climbs SLOW
it's reasonable fast but EVERY plane out accelerates it and several can outrunn it...

it's got the same guns thanthe NIKI and nobody jells tone down the Niki.

Yea a lot of Pilots who fly the HOG do HO's -> BUT in a LOT of cases this is your ONLY option against enemys that climb better, accelerate better, turn better and are only a tad slower.
Don't BASH an airplane because of stats that aren't reflecting the whole picture and because some pilots just have better technique and E management than you !

I agree with "most" of what you said.  I don't have a problem with the plane itself, I have a problem with its guns.  The plane is by no means an easy plane to fly.

Are all the 20mm's modeled the exactly the same?  I really don't think this is the case and I really doubt the N1K has the exact same model.  I could be completely wrong here...but I’d like to hear a response from Pyro to set us all straight.

If they are all the same then why are the scores not even close?  Could it be the Hogs sexy profile?    

Mox
The Wrecking Crew



[This message has been edited by Mox (edited 03-22-2000).]

[Dnil]

Guess no one read my post, especially duck.  I have been flying it exclusively and IMHO it needs to go.  Like it said maybe 2 or 3 sorties have been vulches, 1 ping and move on.  The stats pretty much show its goofey.  Also does each hit sprite model 1 round or what?  Remember when it showed up as 6 20mm when it first came out?  what if it wasnt just a typo and it really treats it that way.  Dunno just wondering.  Seems odd that n1k guns arent just as deadly.

------------------
Dnil
902nd Immortal Jaguars
Part time aircraft restorer. www.kingwoodcable.com/jheuer

[Minotaur]

Duck's comments:

 

I admitt that in high threat situations i rather take the C because then i don't have to wear a bogie down but i can kill it with a snap shot OR a very short tracking sollution.

IMO this sums up the success for the F4U-1C.  Planes that it fights against, typically can't do this.  Add in the generic toughness of the aircraft and it is a very good package.

For the rest of Duck's comments, this is common for most planes.  They all have strengths and weaknesses.  Just take a minute to note that the F4U-1C does very well with these weaknesses, before you type.

I do not agree that this plane needs to go.  Everyone has the equal chance to fly it.

I do agree that this planes dominates and the stats prove that.

Have Fun!  

------------------
Mino
The Wrecking Crew