Author Topic: Planes flipping during agressive defensive moves  (Read 45753 times)

Offline Dobs

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Re: Planes flipping during agressive defensive moves
« Reply #135 on: September 25, 2016, 12:12:27 AM »
FLS--no:) Not sure...Hard to find exact weight but probably closer to 600lbs with hub.

A bud who flies these things for a living made a comment about the torque effect of 1400lb prop...don't know if he was "off the cuff" or not.  But 11' prop with 4 blades....but I'd be interested to know. I know that RAF went to wooden props to save weight initially....
How much savings I don't know.

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Offline FLS

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Re: Planes flipping during agressive defensive moves
« Reply #136 on: September 25, 2016, 03:06:23 AM »
Dobs the mass of the prop, it's RPM, spiral slipstream, asymmetric thrust, rotational torque, and gyroscopic precession are all part of the flight model and they are expressed in the post stall gyrations.

Hitech did the math and wrote his own flight model. You and Dawger are guessing. You won't learn faster with hasty conclusions.

Offline JOACH1M

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Re: Planes flipping during agressive defensive moves
« Reply #137 on: September 25, 2016, 04:02:28 AM »
Turn combat trim off at very low speeds,  you will notice much more control of the aircraft in stall speeds.
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Offline Drane

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Re: Planes flipping during agressive defensive moves
« Reply #138 on: September 25, 2016, 05:27:35 AM »
If you have any AHF of that it would help a lot.

HiTech

Here's film that might show the flippy wiggle thing. It seems like it would be ideal to have both ahf and screen capture film to compare. During the fight the 109 looked like it did the flippy wiggle. The film doesn't look like what I thought I saw in real time. Sorry if this doesn't help.

http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/index.php/topic,381895.0.html
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Offline mutha

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Re: Planes flipping during agressive defensive moves
« Reply #139 on: September 25, 2016, 11:09:34 PM »
Whether it's accurate or not, it seems to be becoming a tactic. Today I flew up behind a 110 and when I opened up on him he very quickly flopped over into that flip-flop mode. I had to extend and come back to kill him. Intentional or not, instantly departing controlled flight makes you a very difficult target to hit!

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Offline JunkyII

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Re: Planes flipping during agressive defensive moves
« Reply #140 on: September 26, 2016, 07:20:23 AM »
Whether it's accurate or not, it seems to be becoming a tactic. Today I flew up behind a 110 and when I opened up on him he very quickly flopped over into that flip-flop mode. I had to extend and come back to kill him. Intentional or not, instantly departing controlled flight makes you a very difficult target to hit!

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I disagree I believe it's been a tactic but people are just starting to figure it out in mass...that and I think people are seeing it better in AH3 with the sharper graphics.
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Offline Dobs

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Re: Planes flipping during agressive defensive moves
« Reply #141 on: September 26, 2016, 08:54:23 AM »
Dobs the mass of the prop, it's RPM, spiral slipstream, asymmetric thrust, rotational torque, and gyroscopic precession are all part of the flight model and they are expressed in the post stall gyrations.

Hitech did the math and wrote his own flight model. You and Dawger are guessing. You won't learn faster with hasty conclusions.

And you are guessing that we are guessing.

What you just said is not totally accurate..it is not JUST PART of the post stall regime , it exists all the time.  And when do you feel it most?  When you are slow and at FULL POWER....yet you really don't feel it until you stall here.  Don't believe me...take the Ensign Eliminator up...Rotate and let go of the controls...let me know what happens. Oh it feels torquey on the ground, but once you break ground its a popsicle cat..  Right hand turning fights, you get a mild left roll tendency...and that is the king daddy of torque. 

You are guessing that the FM is accurately reflected in game and not "dumbed" down so the average joe can fly it...
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Offline Dawger

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Re: Planes flipping during agressive defensive moves
« Reply #142 on: September 26, 2016, 10:06:22 AM »
The P-51D used the HamStan 24D50 Hub usually with 6813 blades.

The weight of the total assembly (without oil which does add significant weight) is 447 lbs at maximum diameter allowed.

http://www.airweb.faa.gov/Regulatory_and_Guidance_Library/rgMakeModel.nsf/0/48496dcb1d17867d8525670f0068c846/$FILE/p-784.pdf

This is a 1970 type certificate and may not reflect WWII values EXACTLY as manufacturing technique and materials may have changed.

NOTE: This is just for information purposes. It is not to be construed as an opinion. I don't have a dog in this fight.

Offline FLS

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Re: Planes flipping during agressive defensive moves
« Reply #143 on: September 26, 2016, 10:21:48 AM »
And you are guessing that we are guessing.

What you just said is not totally accurate..it is not JUST PART of the post stall regime , it exists all the time.  And when do you feel it most?  When you are slow and at FULL POWER....yet you really don't feel it until you stall here.  Don't believe me...take the Ensign Eliminator up...Rotate and let go of the controls...let me know what happens. Oh it feels torquey on the ground, but once you break ground its a popsicle cat..  Right hand turning fights, you get a mild left roll tendency...and that is the king daddy of torque. 

You are guessing that the FM is accurately reflected in game and not "dumbed" down so the average joe can fly it...

Dobs I know the forces are always there, that's why we trim isn't it? It's why I made the point about losing stability. The forces that were balanced are expressed in the rotation. Don't be hasty.  I'm not guessing, I'm reading what you write.   :D

Btw I worked at Hamilton Standard many years ago but not in the propeller section.

Offline Dawger

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Re: Planes flipping during agressive defensive moves
« Reply #144 on: September 26, 2016, 10:41:03 AM »
A note on torque levels....

It is fairly commonly known that low airspeed and a sudden increase in power can overcome the flight controls in high performance WWII single engine fighters.

The Corsair was known as the Ensign Eliminator because it regularly killed neophytes who slammed the power on at slow speed.

The P-51 also could be difficult to control in this situation.

Griffon powered Spits were also "hairy beasts"

Quote
The P-51D, which I flew, was a very straightforward airplane in every way. By that I mean it wasn't difficult to fly or hard to handle, as long as you remembered a few basic things. First and foremost, you never forgot for a minute that it could bite hard if you got careless. There are lots of airplanes that will let you have another chance if you get ham-handed. The -51, in certain areas of her envelope, wasn't one of them.  I remember telling everyone I ever checked out in the Mustang to take it up high, lower the gear and flaps, then back it off to about 15 inches with the prop up to 3 grand... slow it down easy to about 130 mph... then SLAM in 61 inches fast. The resulting torque roll might have helped save a few lives on full power go-arounds. None of my guys ever "torqued one in" anyway...

Quote
I was just talking to a WW-II Mustang driver about this subject yesterday. (55th FG, Duxford based) Before there were any TP-51s availalbe, the instructor pilot would take the new -51 driver up in formation and would demo slow flight and power application as part of the training syllabus from a safe (high) altitude. He recalls 120 kts, flaps and gear down and throwing the throttle to it. Once, he got 2 and a half snaps out of it before there was sufficient airspeed and control authority to recover.

Quote
In operational service many pilots initially found that the new fighter could be difficult to handle, particularly if they were used to earlier Spitfire marks. Don Healy of 17 Squadron, based at Madura recalled that the Mk XIV was;

a hairy beast to fly and took some getting used to. I personally preferred the old Mk Vs from a flying standpoint ... Even with full aileron, elevator and rudder, this brute of a fighter took off slightly sideways.

Of course, we don't see anything like this in game.

Again, this is just information. I don't want anything to change in the game. I just don't want folks thinking going from throttle stop to throttle stop at stall speed in a high performance single engine prop fighter was a piece of cake in real life. A lot of young men died learning these lessons. Lets not cheapen their memory.


Offline FLS

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Re: Planes flipping during agressive defensive moves
« Reply #145 on: September 26, 2016, 10:55:16 AM »
Information is good but to change the flight model you need something more than anecdotes. It would be a rare pilot in Aces
High who didn't die once taking off or landing a Corsair.

Offline waystin2

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Re: Planes flipping during agressive defensive moves
« Reply #146 on: September 26, 2016, 11:00:07 AM »
I like to call the flip flop manuever the....


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Offline JOACH1M

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Re: Planes flipping during agressive defensive moves
« Reply #147 on: September 26, 2016, 11:02:14 AM »
I like to call the flip flop manuever the....
(Image removed from quote.)
No no no

That would be the engine off maneuver!
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Offline JOACH1M

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Re: Planes flipping during agressive defensive moves
« Reply #148 on: September 26, 2016, 11:02:56 AM »
Information is good but to change the flight model you need something more than anecdotes. It would be a rare pilot in Aces
High who didn't die once taking off or landing a Corsair.
think I could handle it after a couple practice runs.
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Offline waystin2

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Re: Planes flipping during agressive defensive moves
« Reply #149 on: September 26, 2016, 11:10:00 AM »
No no no

That would be the engine off maneuver!
Damn! You are right. This guy is so good he needs two names to cover his famous maneuvers.
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