Simulated Aerial Combat Roundtable

[Animl-AW]

You are the one who insisted "100%" real people. That would have been true had not the bomber pilots elected to fly with AI controlled "wingmen". I'd bet all of them did. I'm not trying to diminish the event or your fun. Just pointing out you are not AI free as you made a point of stating.

It's been over-talked and over-explained. What you're trying hard to do is catch me "lying" to deflect from the point. Ya accused me lying about the pic you posted instead of the video. You're wasting my time on a cheap technicality. They are not the same and I stand by my comment. <shrug> Would the wording be better if I said 100% real-time human controlled?

You can't find any other sim/game that can pull off scenarios like this without full blown AI, better yet human numbers, including DCS. It's the entire point of the video and it stands on it's own. Yep you're trying to minimize it as "not as advertised", therefore "it doesn't count". Ya spent 7 pages of debating this foolishness to scroll the video away. Yep that's what you're doing. I predicted one of you would do so.

<shrug> It's a video dude. You'll never see this kind of human action in DCS, maybe not even IL-2. Some of those players flew in it because they don't get this type of stuff there. COuld be why you're trying your best to scroll it away by 7 pages.

[LCADolby]

I cannot believe this is even up for debate; For every Bomber Formation there was 2 AI and 1 Player, because drones do not act out every single control input during flight made by the player/human.

Any claims that "100% human" showing any bomber drones is a stretch of the truth, it's not an outright lie but it's very Todd Howard.

[AKIron]

I flew Aces High for a few years Animl and was doing so when the AI bomber drones were introduced. I know how to code. I need no ones explanation about them.

[Animl-AW]

I flew Aces High for a few years Animl and was doing so when the AI bomber drones were introduced. I know how to code. I need no ones explanation about them.

I flew AH for first 10 yrs, all applies to me too.
You firmer players are intensionally missing my point and dragging a technicality into the abyss.

Its human controlled vs solo self-controlled that flys on its own, which is what DCS snd IL-use. Bast difference in use of AI.

You guys will find wrong in every post I make. Yet there are many things you guys leave out to make your sims appear better than they really are. Players without agenda don’t agree with your lack of comparison.

DCS and IL-2 use full solo AI everywhere. Trips missions are neck deep in AI.

AH use of AI is no where near the same as those sims. Not even close. And thats the point.

If I said apes are red you’d say “not really, thus ine has a thin streak of yellow in it, therefore not red. You guys really are not honest brokers in your debates about sims. You’re very selective in what you’re willing to talk about in comparison, you omit details to make yours.sound better. The word you refuse to mention is “action” you can’t get anywhere near AH in action. I couldn’t pay you enough to talk about action. You will pull your fingernails off to avoid that word, same as pricing.  You found a very small technicality to avoid it. The whole convo is a deflection.

You guys accuse me of everything to stay iff subject in every subject. Doesn’t matter what I talk about. You’re looking for lies that aren’t there, like you pic not a video. Basically , you’re just full of crap. Telling me I’m full of crap. You made the claim the scenarios used solo AI and you could spot it. There wasn’t therefore you can’t your claim was 100% BS. Read up the thread, you make a false claim while accusing me of a false claim to minimize the video. All you have is buff drones because there is no other use as you claimed. There is no so AI. Period. Your claim was false. You brought up buff drones when your claim failed.

Ya know what I meant, stop ACTING stupid.
This convo is not worth one more second of my time. 

[Animl-AW]

BORING!!! 

Ya know, I reinstalled DCS, setup the A-4, setup the controls and jumped into a few quick mission avoiding any pre-flight crap. I shot down a helo and made a number of runs on ground targets, even landed ok the first flight. But I just cant be bothered with spending the tie to get comfortable enough to try an on line server.

Watching the video, you "fought" an AI pilot, IF you want to call that a fight. To me there is just no excitement in any of this. The AI was an "ace", he didn't look all that good to me. I dont know the planes strength/weaknesses so was the climb the right move? And his mistake, no not the chaff, or two horrible rocket launches (does an ACE even know how to lock on?), but to follow you down and give you an easy over shoot so you got a lock on him and took him out. Ace???? Far too easy a mark from what I can see.

To me DCS looks like a game where you spend hundreds of dollars, and hundreds of hours training to fight poorly built AI. Boring!

The cockpit graphics are awesome, but then again vs AH if you have an average computer by the time everything is drawn Im already fighting for my life in AH. Maybe its my attention span. I cant do scenarios either because they are just too boring. And before someone says something about ADD, ADHD, or ABCDEFG Im 65 years old and just dont have the time to waste!

While AH is an older game and the graphics are not up to todays standards the action I crave is still there. Be it in a bomber on a raid, hiding in some brush in a tank or fighting for my cartoon life in a fighter it is still there. In your video the action starts almost 2 minutes in, plus what ever time it took to setup the mission all for two crappy passes and one missle launch for a take down. No action!

Im on the verge of removing DCS again, it just cant hold my interest. While AH on the other hand gets me excited anticipating Saturday night when I get the whole night to play. To each there own I guess.

This

[Animl-AW]

I may not have the bigger audience, the graphics are aging, but the action isn't and I we have 100% human pilots in big numbers

100x more action that DCS will ever see. It shows everything dcs cannot do. Scenarios and mass action between human pilots.

In your own video of action is shooting a AI drone. That is not action. It doesn’t even compare to AH. Not in the same ball park.

[CptTrips]

Aces High has it's unique charms.



So where are the players at?

Why did the 600 players a night we had, leave?

Why have we been unable to replace them in the decade since?

If HT dropped a cool $mil on media advertising right now, would the arena balloon up to 600 players?  Would a material number stay longer than a month? 

If not, why not?

[Animl-AW]

Aces High has it's unique charms.



So where are the players at?

Why did the 600 players a night we had, leave?

Why have we been unable to replace them in the decade since?

If HT dropped a cool $mil on media advertising right now, would the arena balloon up to 600 players?  Would a material number stay longer than a month? 

If not, why not?

Too many choices with updated graphics by 5-15 programmers. I see no hame spending 1 m on ads.


You guys are seriously butt hurt that anyone flies AH. The more you guys talk the more it becomes more than apparent you’re strictly here to sell dcs to AH players. It has zero to do with talking about all sims. You use a worn out passive aggressive approach to slip it by.

Its not an all sims thread, its s dcs sales thread.
Like model Ts, any color as long as its black. This is a dcs sales thread, nothing more, nothing kess.


Why has your audience in this thread vacated? Because its obvious dead horse. 44-5 keep a dead thread alive snd in top. You’re now repeating yourselves to keep it on top.

I called this out months ago, and my claim has become obviously correct.

Many who tried dcs because of this thread were not impressed, read up stream.  You guys over-sold it to the wrong crowd,, snd its showing.

Everything I said sbout this thread has become true. Ta wore out your audience, you lost it.

[CptTrips]

Aces High has it's unique charms.



So where are the players at?

Why did the 600 players a night we had, leave?

Why have we been unable to replace them in the decade since?

If HT dropped a cool $mil on media advertising right now, would the arena balloon up to 600 players?  Would a material number stay longer than a month? 

If not, why not?

Those are fair honest questions I asked.  And of core importance to this thread.

What are other sims doing?
What design or marketing, or monetization choice have they made that are paying off for them?

Why are they having monetary success that AH is not?

Sorry, without monetary success, you can't continue development.  Eventually, not even maintenance.


You'd rather obsess over DCS because it avoids having to face these hard questions.

[LCADolby]

Too many choices with updated graphics by 5-15 programmers. I see no hame spending 1 m on ads.


You guys are seriously butt hurt that anyone flies AH. The more you guys talk the more it becomes more than apparent you’re strictly here to sell dcs to AH players. It has zero to do with talking about all sims. You use a worn out passive aggressive approach to slip it by.

Its not an all sims thread, its s dcs sales thread.
Like model Ts, any color as long as its black. This is a dcs sales thread, nothing more, nothing kess.


Why has your audience in this thread vacated? Because its obvious dead horse. 44-5 keep a dead thread alive snd in top. You’re now repeating yourselves to keep it on top.

I called this out months ago, and my claim has become obviously correct.

Many who tried dcs because of this thread were not impressed, read up stream.  You guys over-sold it to the wrong crowd,, snd its showing.

Everything I said sbout this thread has become true. Ta wore out your audience, you lost it.

You're a little wrong about me and AcesHigh, I'm butt hurt that there aren't arenas filled with 300 people.

[CptTrips]

So Animl derides DCS for having AAA level graphics.

And then admits that the inability to compete on graphics with current market competitors is one of the core reasons AH has failed to maintain market share and unable to acquire it.

I agree, BTW, it is one of the top 3 causes. 

So lets not pretend anymore that graphics are not important.  They are a potential customers first impression of you game before they've ever played it.  It is the "Curb Appeal" that is a necessary, but not sufficient factor in capturing market share. 

[AKIron]

Give it a page or two and Animl will be railing about firing whoever at HTC is not upgrading the graphics.

[Spikes]

You are the one who insisted "100%" real people. That would have been true had not the bomber pilots elected to fly with AI controlled "wingmen". I'd bet all of them did. I'm not trying to diminish the event or your fun. Just pointing out you are not AI free as you made a point of stating.

At the end of the day I just feel like there's a large difference between drones following a player around that are directly attached to his/her movements, and having AI airplanes flying their own planes and missions. When we shot down an airplane in a bomber formation in the Scenario, we directly affected their survival because they're the ones controlling the planes themselves. If I shoot down an AI F-4E or whatever, I didn't get to make a person upset on the receiving end.

The argument is kind of dumb anyway, AH Events and MA are a full PvP experience (save perhaps autoack). The only event where we've had AI bombers was in Fortress Europe.

[AKIron]

All of these arguments are dumb. And of course DCS is not limited to PVE. You can play PVE, PVP, or any combination therein.

[CptTrips]

All of these arguments are dumb. And of course DCS is not limited to PVE. You can play PVE, PVP, or any combination therein.

It is dumb because it is so obvious.  There is no logical argument possible.

The two AI wingmen are AI.  The player is not actuating their aileron and rudders and elevators.  The human is not giving any direct instruction to them at all as far as I Rember.  The human bomber just does his thing.

The AI wingmen watch the human and apply AI controller logic to work his own aircrafts ailerons, rudders and elevators to continually steer to a point a give offset from the human's position.  The AI is using AI logic to determine how to get there.  More thrust? Cut power?  Roll 4 deg, etc.  10 deg elevator?   

The human is not sending those control commands.  The AI is determining how best to fly his plane to reach that dynamic steer point. 

Period.  Full stop.

It's dumb, because everyone already knows this. 

Animl just hadn't thought about it.  It's not import, but humorously ironic that Animl, of all people, just spent weeks making a video where the majority of the bombers in the video were being AI piloted.   That's just kinda funny.