HT talks 4XBuffs

[Dead Man Flying]

Originally posted by Tac
ive sat in the tails of many b17s that were on their norden doing their bomb run, splattered the tail with 200 rnd of 50 cal and nearly all my 20mm cannon from a P-38s nose at d100 or less.. and the fugger tail gun shot me out. If that aint outright roadkill I dont know what is. B17s had no armour to speak of, those 200 rounds wouldve made confetti out of the tail gunner and very likely turned both waist gunners and the top turret gunner into maggot chow. Not in AH though.. oh ho no.

[/B]

I've never had this problem, but then again... I don't attack B-17s from dead six.  I've killed Lancs with just the leftover .303s in my Spit V before by making slashing attacks repeatedly and aiming for the same spot.  That's not to say that killing gunner positions in buffs shouldn't be easier, but in my experience you shouldn't have to anyway.

I'd love to know your method of shooting down a 30k buff that keeps a constant turn rate. Its not a matter of tactics or strengths and weaknesses, its a matter of how well you can abuse the flight model. Hopefully next version, with dispersion set in, 30k buffs will be useless and this blatant abuse will be worthless.

[/B]

I don't.  Take a 202 to 32k and face off against a P-47.  Then squeak all day about how you can't catch him, can't turn with him, can't zoom with him, and can't climb with him.  Cry me a river.  If buffs can outturn you at 30k, then don't turn with them.  See how that works?  It may be ludicrous to imagine that buffs can turn so well, but in the absence of anything but anecdotal evidence to the contrary, we'll just have to make do.

-- Todd/Leviathn

[GRUNHERZ]

I agree with Leviathan!  Who cares if anything is realistic or makes sense, just play the game.  If there are obvious BS errors, they are not. They are game features.....  

Mach 1 capable missle armed FW190 to AH!  It wont be an error in modeling it will be a feature.....

[Dead Man Flying]

Originally posted by MrRiplEy[H]
So leviathn in essence youre saying that the players should utilize the current parameters even if theyre porked for their advantage? That has a name, gaming the game.

[/B]

What I'm saying is that the validity of the flight model belongs in another thread, because it's not relevant to this one.  All planes in AH possess strengths and weaknesses.  The way you defeat one is by exploiting its weaknesses and not flying to its strengths.  This goes for fighters, buffs, and even ground vehicles.  If a buff outturns most fighters at 30k, then the fighters must endeavor to defeat it another way or risk dying.

HTC has a strong history of correcting flight model oddities when provided with proof, and I fully expect they'll correct any buff irregularities in time.  In the meantime, it's ridiculous for you to expect that a buff pilot will fly in a manner that suits you given the flight model limitations of his plane.  It's up to you to employ effective tactics, and it's up to him to counter you with effective tactics of his own.

We don't want to go on that road do we?

Then don't go down that road.  It seems some of you miss my main point completely.

-- Todd/Leviathn

[Dead Man Flying]

Originally posted by GRUNHERZ
I agree with Leviathan!  Who cares if anything is realistic or makes sense, just play the game.  If there are obvious BS errors, they are not. They are game features.....

[/B]

Oh, I see you got my point entirely.  Reading comprehension isn't a strong point with you, is it?  Okay, here's a test for you... find the exact quote from me where I say that incorrect flight models are game features.

-- Todd/Leviathn

[Tac]

beef: I have never been hit by a buff and gotten away undamaged. Even a glancing shot at extreme long range single ping blasts something out. But thats another story.

Also, buffs now shoot through their fuselage, thats why I say i fear next version will have so many guns firing at you. And since the AI acks fire through hangars, its not far fetched to think the buff guns MAY be able to fire through the 3 other buffs in their formation. *grin*

"But Tac....no offense man, but if you're dying to the tail guns of a B17, that means you're attacking it wrong buddy. "

None taken, I dont hit buffs from 6 unless they on bomb run and I feel particulary suicidal.

"Cry me a river. If buffs can outturn you at 30k, then don't turn with them. See how that works?"

Who said anything about turning with them? Its a matter of  bomb-laden aircraft turning like a zero in the thin air without losing alt or any stability..and all the while firing their turrets. Any B&Z attacker will only have 1 pass at it, after that its nearly damn impossible to catch up with the buff or climb back above it. The B17 has more fuel. See pic below.

"It may be ludicrous to imagine that buffs can turn so well, but in the absence of anything but anecdotal evidence to the contrary, we'll just have to make do."

Errmm.. i'd love to see anectdotal evidence of a 30k buff rolling 90 degrees and pulling a high G turn while loaded with bombs.

Pic below is Ta152 with 1 dt and 100 fuel chasing the same B-17 from A30 to the field on the SW corner of the Mindanao map. There was no way the Ta152 could climb or catch up to that b17 after the first 2 passes (which I had to abort 1 pass to the B17 turning hard with its rudder and spraying at d2.0, the 2nd pass was avoided with a sharp turn when I was d700, this pass the buff pilot actually tilted the plane 90 degrees and pulled hard up.. THEN he bombed and continued to avoid me by climbing even higher. The pic you see here is where we ended up). BTW, he won with a d1.8 ping that took off my wing. Quite nice actually, 1 ping.. wonder how many bullets and how much KE they had at that extreme range. Oh, and No, the killing shot was from his 3oc position , not 6 oc.)  

[GRUNHERZ]

Bombers have incorrct FM at 30K. You support this by saying something like:

"If buffs can outturn fighters at 30k then don't turn with them."


If FW190 could outurn your retatard spitfires would you jist say, "dont turn with them"?

[Innominate]

bah.

When you come slow(Or even fast) up a buff's 6, how can you wonder why you lose out?  Killing a buff isnt that hard, but you need to be a little bit patient.  If you attack fast from the sides, or from straight above, there is little the buff can do to hit you.

[SKurj]

any lanc or 17 with full bomb load at 20k+ will stall if banked as far as it can go with rudders while in gunner position if turn held too long (it won't do a 360)

and no they don't bank 90degrees with rudders while gunnin...


SKurj

[Dead Man Flying]

Originally posted by GRUNHERZ
Bombers have incorrct FM at 30K. You support this by saying something like:

"If buffs can outturn fighters at 30k then don't turn with them."

[/b]

I see.  So two sentences later when I write, "It may be ludicrous to imagine that buffs can turn so well, but in the absence of anything but anecdotal evidence to the contrary, we'll just have to make do" I'm somehow in favor of incorrect flight models?  Earlier I also wrote, "Comparison to real world buff capabilities is beside the point. If the fact is that a buff can do this in AH, then tactics may be properly adjusted to account for it."

I'm not sure how more clearly I can make it for you, Grunherz.  I am not arguing for or against buff flight models.  I'm arguing that there are valid and invalid tactics for killing buffs regardless of their flight capabilities in AH.  If you're consistently dying to buffs, then you're fighting it incorrectly in the context of the AH flight model.  If that flight model changes in the future, then the effective tactics will change as well.

If FW190 could outurn your retatard spitfires would you jist say, "dont turn with them"?

My "retarded" Spitfires?  Seems you're bitter... sure you're using effective tactics against them too?

To answer your question, of course I would recommend against a Spitfire turning with a 190 if the 190 substantially outturned it.  Duh.  If the flight models changed in a future patch to change that balance, my recommended tactics would change as well.

-- Todd/Leviathn

[Dead Man Flying]

Originally posted by Tac
Who said anything about turning with them? Its a matter of  bomb-laden aircraft turning like a zero in the thin air without losing alt or any stability..and all the while firing their turrets. Any B&Z attacker will only have 1 pass at it, after that its nearly damn impossible to catch up with the buff or climb back above it. The B17 has more fuel. See pic below.

[/b]

For the umpteenth time, I'm not arguing for or against the flight models of buffs in AH.  The simple fact is that, until a patch changes things one way or another, squeaking isn't going to effectively kill buffs under the current flight model... intelligent tactics will.  And there are tactics that work better than others.

Errmm.. i'd love to see anectdotal evidence of a 30k buff rolling 90 degrees and pulling a high G turn while loaded with bombs.

[/B]

I don't care one way or the other about a buff's flight model.

I noticed you were filming in that screenshot.  Instead of describing the amazing buff prowess with 90 degree turns, why not post the film so everyone can see it for themselves?  That will also allow us to evaluate your tactics, which is really what the point of my posts is in the first place.

-- Todd/Leviathn

[Nath[BDP]]

I never had problems with buff formations. Back in the day when Zigrat and I would run extempore nightly snapshots with B17 formations and escorts attacking German targets with LW fighter cover, I would routinely get 3-4 buff kills before the escorts forced me off. My tactics included a directly overhead pass on the first buff, then I would come in directly below another so fast he wouldn't be able to react--and I only need 4 rounds of 30mm into one and he's toast.

So, fly and learn.

[Hooligan]

Tac wrote:

B17s had no armour to speak of

This is incorrect.  US buffs had armored bulkheads between the various crew compartments as well as other armor in select areas.  The B-17G weighed 4000lbs more than the B-17E and a significant part of this weight gain was in additional armor.

As far as high altitude maneuverability of B-17s go... all of their engines have turbosuperchargers, just like the P-47 engine.  At 30K B-17 engines put out 100% of their sea-level power.  In comparison a P-51d puts out about 60% power at 30k.   B-17s best relative performance against most fighters is at the higher altitudes.  Also, a b-17 with a light fuel load that has dropped half of its ordnance should be fairly agile at high altitude compared to a fighter that can only produce 60% of its rated power.

Next time you see an agile B-17 film it.  You can use the film editor to switch to the bomber's cockpit afterwards and see exactly what the fuel and bomb load is.  If B-17s really are modelled wrong then it should be trivial to prove with film.

Hooligan

[Tac]

b17 armour did not stop 13mm or even 7.9mm's from going in one end and out the other. Even less a 50 cal or 20mm.

And no, I dont have that film any more, its like 3 tours old.

[Dead Man Flying]

Originally posted by Tac
And no, I dont have that film any more, its like 3 tours old.

Shocker.  Please make another soon and post a link to it.

-- Todd/Leviathn

[GRUNHERZ]

To answer your question, of course I would recommend against a Spitfire turning with a 190 if the 190 substantially outturned it. Duh. If the flight models changed in a future patch to change that balance, my recommended tactics would change as well.

So would you be ok with such an FM change? You would not complain and ask it be changed?