Author Topic: On Suicide bombing.  (Read 8062 times)

Offline eagl

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On Suicide bombing.
« Reply #75 on: December 03, 2002, 12:56:44 AM »
Wotan,

You're at level flight at 500 ft, and the bomb will arm if you drop it at 350 but not if you drop it at 150?

If this is true, then something is badly porked in the game physics.  One of the first gravity experiment done in junior high science class is the one where you drop a marble at the same time you fling one horizontally from the same altitude, and they both hit the ground at the same time.

Bombs work the same way in real life, with only rather small variations depending on if the bomb is above or below it's terminal velocity.  I'm pretty sure HT didn't code that in, since the last time I bothered flying a bomber in AH the bombs still hit directly below the bomber indicating that there is no drag whatsoever being applied to the bomb.  This may have changed, but I haven't buffed in quite a while.  About the only way a bomb should hit directly below the plane that releases it is if it's released in a vertical climb or dive, or if after bomb release the pilot decelerates rapidly.  The distance behind the aircraft the bomb impacts is called "Bomb trail" in real life and it's an important consideration when planning a bombing pass without using a modern computing bombsight.

Which brings me back to my original point...  There are plenty of realism enhancements that can be made to how bombs work in the game without messing with bomb effect timeouts.

In WB when similiar controversy surrounded lazer-like guns, we got more realistic ammo trajectories and impact energies instead.  This had the unfortunate impact of initially pointing out some flaws in the damage model (insta-death pilot kills became the usual result of taking any hits) but the realism of the entire game system moved FORWARD, where the alternatives such as an altered "hit bubble" in the front quarter or making bullets disappear at some arbitrary range, would have had the desired gameplay effects immediately but at the cost of severe realism compromise.

Lets see some more weapons employment realism first, THEN fake things for gameplay if we can't get that to work.  

Here are some suggestions that might give the desired results in the main arena without compromising the integrity of the game:

Make sure bombs have a terminal velocity and drag.  If this means a flight model for each bomb or just a shortened trajectory after release, take the time to make the bombs act like real bombs. Add weapon release parameters that prevent abuse of the system, just like flap and gear limiting speeds prevent them being abused like they were in earlier game versions.  Start with aircraft attitude, G, pitch/roll/yaw rate, and speed limits on bomb release.  For example, rolling a heavy bomber as bombs exit the bomb bay may cause the bombs to impact the side of the bomb bay or bomb bay doors (happened to a B-1 in Desert Fox), and pulling excessive G's (or negative G's) during release may cause the bomb to hang up on the aircraft without releasing properly.   DOCUMENT these parameters (approximates are fine), as they would be made available to a real pilot in the form of standard operating limits.  Then make the consequences severe enough to discourage abuse.  Make bombs hang or impact the aircraft causing minor damage if released improperly, just like the landing gear gets stuck down if oversped, but don't make the consequences severe enough to discourage bomber use of course.

How's that for productive suggestions?  Guess what, most of them were made years ago by myself and others, and they were either discarded or put on the back burner.  It's HT and Pyro's JOB to prioritize feature addition, and they see the results of those decisions far more clearly than ANY player can.  This time however, I suggest upping the priority of some useful, realistic features instead of coding something goofy and fake.

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« Last Edit: December 03, 2002, 01:31:16 AM by eagl »
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Offline FDutchmn

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On Suicide bombing.
« Reply #76 on: December 03, 2002, 01:25:44 AM »
yes, it was the case in Air Warrior that you had to live until the time of impact for the bombs to take effect as I recall.  It was also the case in Air Warrior that even bomb loaded fighters could not drop bombs at negative G's.

I would prefer to see:

1. no bomb are released at negative G's
2. Heavy bombers, Lancs and B17s, cannot dive bomb due to the structural limitations
3. perk the bombs over 500lbs which you get back if you live for more than 30secs after impact

I'd like to see all these... ;)

Offline BNM

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On Suicide bombing.
« Reply #77 on: December 03, 2002, 01:44:47 AM »
I'll go with what FDutchman said. Hope you figure it out somehow HT as it is a growing problem.

Offline Tumor

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On Suicide bombing.
« Reply #78 on: December 03, 2002, 02:16:17 AM »
I hate to be the odd one out here but... I think it's a doggone good idea HiTech.  Killing targets with bombs and living (especially CV's) takes a certain amount of skill.  It's hardly impossible.  Suicide bombing is gamey and detracts from the Aces High overall.  I say do this.  If you can't hit a target and live... then practice.  All ya gotta do is learn how, and it would be WORTH it to rid the arena of the suicide garbage.
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Offline moose

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On Suicide bombing.
« Reply #79 on: December 03, 2002, 04:24:20 AM »
Quote
Originally posted by eagl
Wotan,

You're at level flight at 500 ft, and the bomb will arm if you drop it at 350 but not if you drop it at 150?

If this is true, then something is badly porked in the game physics.  


I think you're incorrect there eagl  -

That bomb would have at least 200 more feet to fly before hitting the ground, wouldn't it?

Since bombs in AH have to travel a certain distance before arming, what wotan said makes sense to me.
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Offline Tilt

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On Suicide bombing.
« Reply #80 on: December 03, 2002, 04:26:30 AM »
Quote
Originally posted by NUKE
Put a limit on the angle bombs will release in the buffs....

I think AW had something like that.

Anyway, if you put an angle limit that bombs would release out of the bomb bays, maybe that could solve the problem.


AW bombs would not release under negative g..........(regardless of plane type)
AW4W bombs only damaged objects if the originator was still alive when they hit......
AW3 bombs damaged objects regardless of whether the originator was still alive.......

But back on track

..........Angle of attitude inhibitor would only apply to internal ordanance..hence on the Mossie, JU88 & Il2m3 its internal bombs would be inhibited in a dive but not external..... this would be accurate........

The logic "gate" would then be the bomb bay doors

I think 1 perk when choosing 1000llb/500kg (buy one get the rest free) is fair and maybe 2 perks when choosing 1000kg should we ever get one.

re mass raids........... then use a field limit......
« Last Edit: December 03, 2002, 04:46:01 AM by Tilt »
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Offline moose

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On Suicide bombing.
« Reply #81 on: December 03, 2002, 04:26:36 AM »
Nevermind, I was thinking you were talking altitude

Although in real life, werent the 'timers' on bombs simply miniprops  on the nose of the bomb, that spun off and armed?

In this case a bomb going 350 miles an hour would arm quicker then one at 150
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Offline mrniel

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On Suicide bombing.
« Reply #82 on: December 03, 2002, 04:32:18 AM »
No, don't like it

There is ofcause some people that run suicide missions,
but i think it's a bad idear to penalise those who actually
are trying to survive.
And by the way, you do get more perks for landed missions,
so a way to encourage survival could be to adjust perk points
so there is a greater difference between a landed and a mission
where you die.

Offline Wotan

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On Suicide bombing.
« Reply #83 on: December 03, 2002, 04:51:10 AM »
Quote
Although in real life, werent the 'timers' on bombs simply miniprops on the nose of the bomb, that spun off and armed?

In this case a bomb going 350 miles an hour would arm quicker then one at 150


Tht was my point.

But even so if I am at 350mph  how fast is the bomb going when I release it?

How fast is going if I am at 150 mph?

Wont the the bomb "glide" further at 350 then it would at 150?

The distant from the plane to the ground is always 500 ft but the "bomb" travels a longer distance --------------> this way.

at 325 at 750ft I can release a bomb level from an f8 and get a hit on a vehicle at 1.7k or so. Any slower then that  the bomb falls short. Faster the bomb lands long.

Doesnt a bomb with fins "glide"?

Offline KYridgeRunner

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« Reply #84 on: December 03, 2002, 04:52:15 AM »
So you will do something about the folks dive bombing the carrier with b17/lanc.. its fairly tuff to live through a drop from a p47 or 38 and 1 and 10 try you can sometimes live in an A20 dive attempt.

sorry to disagree, but you put more though in the big bombers dive attempts and not on the unequal numbers.

You want realistic, why dont the boats list ( incline, lean, recline, slope, tilt, tip) to one side when hit by torp or damaged, would make taking off fun if not impossible for fighters.

Sounds like the fleet will become a floating fortress unable to be killed or harmed.

Offline devious

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On Suicide bombing.
« Reply #85 on: December 03, 2002, 04:52:24 AM »
Don't like it. If I die shortly after bomb release, it's most likely because someone got me, or due to an accident during pullout from a dive.

Aside from that, making divebombing impossible for level-bombers is a good idea. Maybe have bombs from a bomb bay only fall out from a certain AoA range.

For punishing suiciders, I dunno...

Offline rod367th

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Suicide bombing
« Reply #86 on: December 03, 2002, 04:54:46 AM »
Its easy to stop if we all lead by example. Was in arena one day when a new player wanted to sink cv. A existing player been here longer than I.  Gets on country channel tells him how to suicide cv. 4 or 5 people speak up (hazed,whels and myself with others. Telling him to teach new  players to suicide is gaming game.



  I have killed between 50 and 100+ cv's every tod. Not once have i done the suicide  bombing. Now granted died to ships ack. because only got to 5k. But if i get to 8k and no fighters sinking cv is a snap. "OPPS THERE GOES ANOTHER CV" is my favorite saying. I think if a guy is willing to give his life in a jabo attack then by all means it should count.  It wasn't just Japanese that did dive bombing to carriers We USA lost hundreds of dive bombers who dove on cv's and other  ships.
 ( one of our best ACES died in ww2 straffing a ship.)




  What I think would stop this suicide bomber attacks is make ack only fire if guns manned. If a side is not willing to protect its cv They should lose it.


 Side note Bismark in ww2 spent all of its antiaircraft ammo trying to stop ww1 planes from sinking it. They didn't shoot down 1 plane. but did hit 2 of them.  But in here its lazer ack. so guys use bombers as suicide machines.



 1. Turn ack to be manned at cv's could be like a bombers ack so many guns per person.  Give more points for manning a field or ship gun

  2. Increase Radar range for cv's and set radar lower just for cv. ( I would set it to 0 feet. Reason is in real life you would have to wave hope and would be on dar if stormy)

 3. Cv's  Needed a CAP over them or they would be useless in war, In here not many cap a cv some do just not many they expect ack to save cv. should be other way around. Easy to kill cv if its not CAP and guns manned. Now its lethal ack so guys suicide it.


 4. If these above situations take effect. Then Flim any Bomber doing a suicide bombrun on cv and send it to Hitech. 1 warning second offense 2 weeks banned 3rd offense 1 month. etc.


 I Can't think of the player who mans the 5 inch guns. But he has taken out 1 or 2 of my bombers at 8 k above cv. Also if a cap is up 1 plane can make it hard to sink cv in formation. If your bomber gets hit Cailbration is porked.


      Well there is my 2 cents........................ ..........................

Only newbie to boards because i started new ID name :)

Offline stynger

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On Suicide bombing.
« Reply #87 on: December 03, 2002, 05:07:51 AM »
perking bomb loadouts  would have the largest effect on the people who cant afford them. is it fair to limit the gameplay of a newbie because of a few lamers?

Offline Innominate

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On Suicide bombing.
« Reply #88 on: December 03, 2002, 05:22:24 AM »
Quote
Originally posted by stynger
perking bomb loadouts  would have the largest effect on the people who cant afford them. is it fair to limit the gameplay of a newbie because of a few lamers?


Many of those lamers -are- the newbies, so yes.  It's also not a few, there are an awfull lot of us.

Offline Pepe

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On Suicide bombing.
« Reply #89 on: December 03, 2002, 05:44:36 AM »
I don't like it....would eradicate Bishops from game  :D

On a serious side, I don't think it will work.

Maybe it's a silly proposal...wait, I'm sure it is :D , but,

What would you think of this: if a great number of planes (say 10, for instance) die due to AAA or crash not related to damage by enemy aircraft or GV fire in a particular spot (a base) in less than 30 seconds ALL of the planes of this country in the vincinity of that spot (say the whole sector) die immediately regardless of their role in the attack? You could refine the code adding a random factor to the number of planes needed to trigger that event and thus limiting the ability to trim numbers in 2 consecutive waves of suicides just under the limit.

This way not only you would disencourage suicides per se, but also the parasite vulchers symbiothically associated to them.

Best regards,