Author Topic: On Suicide bombing.  (Read 8594 times)

Offline Eagler

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On Suicide bombing.
« Reply #120 on: December 03, 2002, 09:58:25 AM »
Quote
Originally posted by hitech
Exactly how do you get these perk bomb points with out having bombs to get them?

HiTech


start with a pool of them

maybe set up a way to trade on type of perk for another
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Offline Tilt

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On Suicide bombing.
« Reply #121 on: December 03, 2002, 09:59:50 AM »
Quote
Originally posted by hitech
Exactly how do you get these perk bomb points with out having bombs to get them?

HiTech


LOL you would only perk uber bombs......... like  you only perk uber planes.........

all you would have to decide is whether to make the free stuff at 500llbs and below or 250lbs and below...

You would pay with bomber perkies  (if you didn't land safe that is)

edit.........

make loading of bombs automatically switch to attack status.......

(does death = * 0 for perks?) if not should it?
« Last Edit: December 03, 2002, 10:15:22 AM by Tilt »
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Offline Turbot

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On Suicide bombing.
« Reply #122 on: December 03, 2002, 10:06:17 AM »
Delay fused bombs were used in WW2 often, in fact people have been wishing for them in the game for a long time.   There are some threads around here somewhere on the subject.  

So, the delay concept isn't "gamey" at all.   For game play the implementation of delay would need to be tried and tested, especially as to length of delay.  I feel 30 seconds after impact is too long a time, any number of things can happen near an airbase in that amount of time that are not specifically "suicide".

This may or may not prevent jabo though - in fact it might in some ways make jabo more effective, as now your low flying jabo would not be kiled in the bomb blast.

(Again, this needs to be tested, but I have always liked the idea of adjustable delay on bombs for reasons other than the subject of this thread.)

Offline Innominate

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« Reply #123 on: December 03, 2002, 10:16:21 AM »
Quote
Originally posted by hitech
Exactly how do you get these perk bomb points with out having bombs to get them?

HiTech


Just draw from fighter perks.
With 500/1000lb bombs perked at 2/4 points each, anyone can afford to use them.

Bombers would be exempt from this cost, giving an actual reason to use planes like the SBD, il2, upcoming stuka, etc, in the MA!  Throw in dive-angle restrictions on level bombers, and you've got level bombers which have a real advantage over thier jabo counterparts, and attack bombers which are now worth using.
« Last Edit: December 03, 2002, 10:19:13 AM by Innominate »

Offline JB73

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« Reply #124 on: December 03, 2002, 10:24:11 AM »
well if like HiTech said the Vehicle damage would be instant as it is now i see no major problems with this.

CV's would last forever (or untill people get off their buts and learned to lvl bomb:) )


my only question is do all the drones AND the main plane have to die for the "0" damage.... or if just 1 dies do all the bombs still hit?

personally i just did a JU88 divebomb on a CV last night and hit it... i also pulled out but i had lost 1 of the drones. (the only reason i did a dive bomb is time LOL). but either way i would have had no problem with the bombs of the killed drone not hitting. i just think that it should be stated clearly to the community what you finally decide.


as for divebombing in general... look @ my squad name :D

we take some pride in being able to divebomb fighters, NOT "auger" and still hit your target. it was a real part of the war, but IRL it was not a sucicide mission.

last note on divebombing.... we the III/Jabostaffel can't wait for the Ju87 Stuka!!! :)

oh well my 2¢
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Offline Masherbrum

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On Suicide bombing.
« Reply #125 on: December 03, 2002, 10:24:20 AM »
I agree with Rip, from way back when this thread started.

Oedipus, so now a "kamikaze" is a dweeb?!  What's next, Ostie dweebs?!  

War sucks doesn't it?  

HiTech, leave the current format the way it is.

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Offline JB73

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« Reply #126 on: December 03, 2002, 10:29:08 AM »
Quote
Originally posted by Masherbrum
so now a "kamikaze" is a dweeb?!  


sry Karaya2 ... i usually agree with alot you say......

yes the Japanese were fanatically loyal to their country and would rather die for it than live to fight another day.

BUT how many allied or german "kamikaze" pilots did you ever see in the war?

oh well my 2¢
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Offline SOB

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« Reply #127 on: December 03, 2002, 10:29:34 AM »
Quote
Originally posted by AKDejaVu
Its strange, but in this whole thread I don't see one person acknowledge or say that bombs should simply be released at higher altitudes.

It is not difficult at all to survive a jabo attack.  If you release your bombs above 7k you are out easy.  The problem is, this is not accurate enough for many people that insist that they destroy something.  Instant gratification wins out above all else.

Bombs kill from above 7k.  I've seen many people drop on CVs from higher altitudes with fighters and hit it while avoiding the ack umbrella.  Those are the few where survival actually plays a role in their practice/tactics.  They are rare in the MA and this thread highlights why.

AKDejaVu


I like this idea, but how would you determine the minimum altitude for a drop.  If it is 7k, what about bases that are higher than sea level?

As much as it might improve some aspects of the game (ie suicide jabos), I just can't sink my teeth into the idea of bomb delays.


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Offline smash

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On Suicide bombing.
« Reply #128 on: December 03, 2002, 10:33:00 AM »
HT,

Thanks for thinking about this and seeking out opinions.

Personally, I see the suicide problem as having an effect on several things - ranked by annoyance level :)

1)  Suicide attacks on naval groups.
2)  Re-planing and attacking a GV group.
3)  Re-planing when defending a field.

A) My first thought is to limit re-planing in the same plane type from the same field after death.  I would be reluctant to completely inhibit someone from using a certain field, because in many instances the same group of players works to defend a single field, so your defences would quickly be overrun.  This may or may not be a bad thing, just thinking....

This idea could be refined somewhat, for example you up, you fly for 30 minutes and die, but you can still re-plane in the same plane type.  But if you up, and die in 5 minutes then you cannot use that plane type (from that field) again.

B) Another thing to consider would be limiting the number of plane types at a given field until re-supplied.  This may not be enough to correct the problem though, and it might impact missions in a negative way.

C) Possibly we could perk ordinance while also limiting ordinance per type at a field until re-supply.  In other words, the ammo supply for 1ks is limited to 20 eggs at a given field, until convoy/train arrives.

D) If you die twice on sorties from the same field, you can no longer use that field.

These are just my initial thoughts, perhaps a combination of A and C would work well.  Don't know.

------------------

I guess if you have read this far, you've guessed I do not favor your proposed change ;)   But let me explain why, in my opinion, it is not the best solution.

I believe it uses something which is un-realistic, to correct a quirk in the game which is also un-realistic.

"It's easy to say, hey thats not realistic, but what you realy wan't to ask is, is the change in physics realism (i.e. 30 sec delay) worth the trade off to a more realistic world play"

In reading this I understand some things better, in particular the changes to the way buffs work.  Don't take this wrong HT, I really enjoy the game, and appreciate the work you and the crew has done.  But we fundamentally disagree on this (or I may not have understood you well).  Would like to share a beverage sometime and discuss this premise. But let's move on, and again - thanks for asking our input on this.

"Exactly how do you get these perk bomb points with out having bombs to get them?"

I would like to see all perk types consolidated, and an initial supply given.  If not, then deduct them from the group for that vehicle type.  In other words, I take up a fighter, a 1k bomb cost me "x" from my fighter perk points, unless I survive.  Thoughts?

The suggestion below is similar (better?) and has merits:

Make it so that in order to carry ord you have to select the "Attack" button and create a perk penalty that subtracts points for lives lost in the "Attack" mode. Also while in "Attack" mode create perk pay for ordinance (admittedly, a more thorough implmentation of the perk system would be required and is overdue anyway).

My last suggestion is to take your time and think this one through.  The problem is one that is part of a lot of sims, and if you can figure out an elegant solution, it will be a major improvement to your game.
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Offline Manedew

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On Suicide bombing.
« Reply #129 on: December 03, 2002, 10:35:47 AM »
seems to me the 30 second nerf idea and the perk idea are both bad.  

I think the main problem is  suicideing CV's.  Everything else is a trivial suicide problem .. but a cv suicidered will spawn 8 times in a row to sink a CV ....
how about if you suicide bomb and get killed within 30 seconds of drop you are forced to fly with no heavy ord for next 10 mins? (maybe only rockets- to allow for anti gv runs, but would do little damage to a CV)

So you wouldn't be able to up planeload after planeload of suicide eggs ...  this should also eliminate unfairness towards well-meant drops... they will just be stuck with no heavy ord for ten mins when they respawn.

That's best i can come up with ... it's a hard issue, but i know the nerf idea would proably make me stop useing ord all together.  Half the fun is blasting a town,gv or vh apart right infront of your eyes- a delay of 30 secs would ruin it for me.

Offline krazyhorse

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« Reply #130 on: December 03, 2002, 10:38:09 AM »
ok , my 2cents, what if there was say a death penalty,for jabo's and bombers only,suicide attacks - 20 perks  and ten minute time out for dying jabo -20 peks off fighter perks.. bombers -20 off bomber perks  eggs dropped still count though

Offline Preon1

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« Reply #131 on: December 03, 2002, 10:43:28 AM »
Quote
Originally posted by hitech
Just haveing a new thought , havn't figured out how yet. But wrather than putting a penalty for not living. How about some type of extra reward in game play (i.e. nothing with scoring or perks) that has some type off effect on arena play?  My first impression it would not be enof to prevent the suicide attacks.

HiTech


How about a point system that allows people to spawn at 10,000 feet AGL?  One reason why people don't want to live through bombing attacks is because it takes so long to fly to target and then return to land the sortie.  If they got extra points for landing successful bombing runs then they would be rewarded by getting the choice to spawn higher, thus killing the time it takes to climb to alt.  That would at least curb the suicides a little.

Offline Tilt

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On Suicide bombing.
« Reply #132 on: December 03, 2002, 10:48:05 AM »
Motivation not to die

Three classifications (my own) Strong, Average, Mild

Mild
1)you dont win perkies
2)shame- show deaths by AI ground fire on the system reports
3) it does not help your score


Average
1)you lose perkies
2)you can't fly the plane you just lost again for "x" minutes
3)you cant fly from that base again for "x" minutes
4) dieing neutralised your achievements

Strong
1) you lose lots of perkies
2) you cant fly that type (fighter,attack, bomber GV) of ride again for x minutes
3) you cant fly from that type ( small, medium, large, gv, cv) of base again for x minutes.
4) you cant fly at all for x minutes.............

HT seems to want to target Average 4)

Average 4)
a)delay actual detonation for a set period through which the player must live. (HT original)
b) add a reducing factor to the rebuild time if the bomber dies.....
c)????
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Offline hazed-

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On Suicide bombing.
« Reply #133 on: December 03, 2002, 10:53:48 AM »
Hitech ,

As you seem to be in agreement the heavier bombers or those aircraft not designed for dive bombing are the major problem concerning the aspect of suicide dive bombing could you not introduce some of these suggested 'fixes' to ONLY those aircraft that werent designed for the job?

the 30 second delay idea would be perfectly ok if it was implemented on ONLY the planes not designed for dive bombing wouldnt it?


As for the fighter suicide runs this i think is a very tricky area as we have 2 different camps APPEARING to do the same thing , ie:

A player doesnt care about score who dives in drops bombs and augers without even trying to live

A player who is trying his best to live and drop bombs properly but is either unlucky or not yet skilled enough to survive and is killed.

one player deserves punishment while the other deserves reward for trying to learn and play properly.

This is why i feel that making bombs cost perks is the way to go.
Yo want to influence behaviour rather than changing the fundimentals of your flight model.

The current model for jabo is superb, its the players who abuse it that are the problem.
If you can make their behaviour TOO COSTLY then you remove the behaviour.

The legitimate player who tries over and over to survive will build points up whereas the player who never tries will soon run out of points.

It will be tricky to get the ballance right im sure but at least you havent had to make adjustments to your flight model.

Also how about if you take a fighter bomber with max loadout you are risking say 5 or 10 perks.You make a successfull and realistically executed attack and survive the drop for at least 30(or less) seconds. once that time is up you are no longer risking the 5 to 10 perks it cost for the bombs?

you see you could implement the 30 second rule on JUST the ordinance.
The player who gets shot down just after the alloted time keeps his perks. Only the player who suicides or is unlucky enough to crash or get shot down soon after will be penalised.Bit tough on the guy trying hard and failing but im sure we could all accept it if it stops the endless hordes of dweeebs :D

This does call for a new category of perks , ie 'ordinance perks' so it may not be to your liking ?


(i must say i also feel 30 secs is a bit too long. just my opinion, maybe 5 or 10 seconds?)
« Last Edit: December 03, 2002, 11:00:35 AM by hazed- »

Offline Preon1

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« Reply #134 on: December 03, 2002, 11:00:25 AM »
Quote
Originally posted by Preon1
How about a point system that allows people to spawn at 10,000 feet AGL?  One reason why people don't want to live through bombing attacks is because it takes so long to fly to target and then return to land the sortie.  If they got extra points for landing successful bombing runs then they would be rewarded by getting the choice to spawn higher, thus killing the time it takes to climb to alt.  That would at least curb the suicides a little.


Oh yeah, you would also be at 200 IAS directly over the spawn point going in the direction that the spawn point indicates.