Since Bush became president...

[Toad]

Bush's unit did not deploy, IIRC.

This whole thing is extremely similar to the "Draft Dodger" Clinton charges. I suspect it has the same effect on the "opposition", too.

That is to say no one is changing their mind in this thread. As we saw with Clinton, the charges are easy, the proof is much more difficult.

But do carry on. Spleen venting is definitely a good spectator sport.

[weazel]

Chimpys a deserter.

[GRUNHERZ]

Vector:

I want europe to be strong and decisive like it was before they they became these relativist rutabagas entirely too intellectual, contemplative and thoughtful for their own good. Kick some bellybutton for god's stand up for something besides some weak pointless ideas.  Thats why AlQaeda just doesnt really care about killing europeans, and if AlQeada isnt trying to kill your people then you are doing enough good in the world.  Now thats a joke but think about it for a little bit. I just percieve Europe as being weak and not willing to stand up to murders and keep their lofty ideals like "never again" in the face of opposition.  They could have saved so many lives in my country if they were more decisive and strong - but of course nothing significant happend until the USA and also UK got pissed after Srebrenica joint Serb/UN massacre of 10,000 civilans.

Wiezelle:
 
Yes I know bush is is stinky little thief who stole your preciuss.  I'm starting to think wiezelle is really Al Gore turned into Gollum and he is trying to get his preciousss ellection back..  

Gscholz.

We left as a familiy with my father coming out to the USA in 1987 and the rest of us in 1989.

Croatians are bums like the rest except the Slovenes, who despite being a bunch of gay little sissies , are really very smart and succesful people.

We hated the UN because you imposed a cease fire only after the serbs captured 1/3 of our country. Flying into split airport you were dodging AAA fire from those very serbs as they he effectivly cut the country in half at the bend - their lines of farthest concquest protected by UN cease fire...

Vukovar is in the north-eastern part of Croatia just on the Serb border, it became known as the Croatian Stalingrad because the Serbs encircled the city and pretty much destroyed everything. Some of my uncles were patients in the Vukovar hospital when the serbs cleared it out - they were never seen again.  Actually our guys came that close to starting big attacks of the UN out of desperation so you would leave and that we could take back our territory.

But then in summer 1995 the serbs went to far and with help of Dutch warcriminals theyt murdered 10,000 muslim civialns in Srebrenica. The USA then helped us plan an offensive that routed the serbs along with US/UK bombing and liberated  the last 1/3 of our land and then combined with bosnian forces and helped liberate much of their territory.

I know you said you were a UN soldier there in 1995, what were your experieces with this period?

whgates:

Im croatian and I see no reason to hide it, I like my little old country even though its pretty useless and utterly unimportant now and were all bums.  As for my name well, I took it rather randomly when I started playing Janes WW2 fighters because I just bought then the Prien/Rodieke Bf109 book that had JG54 109s on the cover.  If because of that and my croatian background somebody wants to call me a nazi, well thats their issue to work out not mine...  

[aztec]

Nuculer, that pretty much says it all.

[StSanta]

With all due respect Grünherz.

I think you've mistaken the more black and white world in the USA for 'decisiveness' and 'balls' and what have you not. American culture reflects this binary mode of thinking and you've bought it full out.

The lack of action you critizise can stem from an understanding that the world is a shade of grey. The 'never again' feeling will impose itself in the national psyche when something terrible has happened twice in less than 30 years.

Europe has been gearing up to be an economic, not military, superpower. In the coming decades I think we'll see a Europe becoming more closely knit together and incrementally more powerful. The US will not be the only big player on the field. No powerful civilization has lasted for particularly long and it seems change accelerates at the same pace as technological and societal advance.

From what I can gather from your posts you're a bit like a smoker that has quit - adament about how bad smoking is and how much better it is not to. Or perhaps more describing -  a love affair. The lost love is seen in less than a flattering light and the newfound one through the rosen red glass of love.

I should also note that there are several instances when European nations have sent in troops to either restore order or recapture occupied territory. I also think it'd be dishonest of you to blame Europe for what happened in Yugoslavia - Germans, Danes, Swedes, Portuguise - none of them held the guns and comitted the atrocities. Too little was done, but you must remember who the trigger pullers were.

And what happened in Yugoslavia was nothing compared to what happened in WWI and WWII - and Yugoslavia was really BAD. That explains 'never again'.

You're quite biased and quite honestly I don't think you're in an emotional state to see things objectively. And you deserve me saying so for all the emotions you've let out. While I emphatizes with you I do not think broad generalisations and name calling is particularly beneficial.

Just try to put a hold on your worst outburst of name calling bro. it makes you look like a mindless idiot and I know from talking to you and reading many of your posts that you're anything but that. I liked you better when you used your brain more than your heart.

But then again, I'm a cold 'never again' indecesive European popsicle (yeah, it anoyes me to be called a popsicle). I don't mind you bringing up concrete issues describing what's wrong with Europe, but just saying 'yer rutabagas' is far below what your cognitive abilities can produce.

At any rate, just my opinion. Consider me a friendly European with some constructive suggestions .

[Cobra]

Originally posted by StSanta
 Consider me a friendly European with some constructive suggestions .

Oxymoron!!  

[BUG_EAF322]

Grunherz does black white thinkin.
thanks santa to explain.


I'm dutch so i am a war criminal

[Ike 2K#]

Originally posted by Eagler
that would be Eagl sir, I drive a Honda

show your honda and i show my acura:p

[whgates3]

isnt an acura just an overpriced honda?

[GRUNHERZ]

Santa:

I'm pissed at european community because they didnt do more and it took the USA to finally end it. Let me put it this way, dont you think it was shameful that it took the USA, yet again, to end that war and that the final negotiations for a EUROPEAN civil war and genocide attewmpt had to be done Dayton, Ohio smack dab in the middle of the US of diddlyin A...

Or look at Kosovo again, what on earth could have the Euros done without US leadership. Nothing, excpet talk and talk and wring their hands while yet another civilan population was terrorized and deported and put through the fires of yet another genocide.

My problem with Europe is not so much hatred or even a matter of my greater appreciation of the USA, but its out of a desire for my old home to become strong and decisive again - not having to wait for the USA to lead them in every difficult decision. Thats why I say you should, collectivly, grow some balls.

As for my issue with Dutch UN guys I call them warcriminals because the Dutch UN commander was having drinks and toasting with the Serb Commander while his troops were helping the serbs seperate men from women and watching the serbs take them on busses, 10,000 or so were killed.  BTW Srebrenica was a UN safe area and UN propaganda thus drew in those thousands under the pretense of security - thye second the serbs showed up in numbers the Dutch UN gave up any idea of protecting the innnocent refugess and wanted to save their own asses. Thats understandable of course, but you can see why thats somewhat of a problem when you are a soldier supposedly commited to guard  lives of innocents with your own.  It was just Shameful that they didnt even put up a fight, it was perhaps even more shameful that the greater Euro and UN community didnt do more just before. Naturally after that the USA got pissed and natuarrly soon after US got pissed the problem somehow got solved in short order.

Gscholz.

I went back in 1990 the summer a year just before the war and there was allready talk of war among the people. I also went back in 1996, have not been back since.

[whgates3]

Originally posted by weazel
Chimpys a deserter.

LOL - ken bensten - LOL
what hasbeen pol doesn't have kids in congress?...maybe we should save some trouble & make congressional seats hereditary

[Dowding]

Grunherz - I have posted over and over agin that your misconceptions about Srebrenica are just that. I could dig them up again, but what would be the point? You have yet to answer the points raised.

The key points are that when the safe haven plans were drawn up the requirement was for 35,000 troops. Only a maximum of 6000 were ever deployed, and at the end only 3000 Dutch were in place.

The Dutch commander had been given no intel about the surrounding area or about the capabilities of the Serb forces.

There was no provision for air support.

To blame the troops on the ground is a disservice at best. They were put in an impossible situation and asked to do an impossible job. I don't believe American or British troops could have succeeded in those circumstances. Any blame should be placed squarely on the upper eschelons of the UN.

As for leadership of the Kosovo Mission - I think you'll find it was British troops that spearheaded the campaign. I also seem to remember British troops forming the largest contingent.

[GRUNHERZ]

How is any of that an excuse for them just standing by and letting the serbs select and murder some 10,000 civilians under their protection? It was their responsibility to protect those thousands of civilans under their charge, instead they did nothing, well not quite nothing. The Dutch commander Karemans IIRC even had drinks with the serb general while this was going on.

You cannot make exises for a warcrime of that magnitude....

[Cabby44]

Quote:

"They were put in an impossible situation and asked to do an impossible job. "

Gee, that's usually sufficient to slam the United States and it's Armed Forces.  But WTH, this is another one of those dumb-ass Leftie whine-and-screech threads.

Who gives a s***............

Cabby

[GRUNHERZ]

I agree Gszolz I go too far the way I put it, no doubt about.  The whole thing was just such a disgrace - it makes mr so sad and so angry and was so typical for some of the resons I resent the UN and many European indecisve attitudes.  

And I should know well enough what the Dutch UN did there was inexusable and shameful to such an extent that it does not need any exxageration on my part, but god do I hate what they did and it hurts me so much because I could esily imagine some of my family or bosnian friends being those refugees.

Gsczolz one of the most painful things I heard about this incident was that Dutch troops did actally help seperate the men, what do you know about this? Is it true or a myth?