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Author Topic: Good Antiwar Argument  (Read 2310 times)

Offline Hortlund

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Good Antiwar Argument
« Reply #45 on: February 27, 2003, 03:41:30 PM »
Quote
Originally posted by Toad
I make VERY MUCH out of these United States going to war without a legitimate cause under "just war theory".
 


Why?

I mean what is more important...

going to war for the right reasons (WWI, WWII, Kuweit, Iraq)

or going to war for the wrong (but legal) reasons (Vietnam)

or going to war for the right reasons even though it is illegal (Kosovo)

You should not be looking at any sort of legality aspect here. Simply because international law is not really a law at all.

Trust me on what I'm about to say next.

International law = Politics

You will never find any answers there. You will not find the answer to the question "what is right" or "what is wrong", you wont find any clear cut rules saying what is ok and what is not...and if you do, those rules can be, and are constantly, bent, twisted, broken or "overlooked".

I can argue either side of any conflict, and I can find good valid arguments for "my" side...arguments good enough to get idealists and hippies out in the streets demonstrating for my cause...But at the end of the day it doesnt really matter because international law is only about politics.

Want to break a UN resolution? Go right ahead if you are a powerful nation or if you have powerful friends (US, Russia, Israel)

Want to enforce a UN resolution? Go right ahead if you are a powerful nation or if you have powerful friends.

Want to break a UN resolution and you dont have any powerful friends but a couple of powerful enemies...well then your toejam outta luck (Iraq)

Want to have another nation follow a UN resolution but you dont have any powerful friends...shit outta luck again (Nicaragua, "Palestinians")
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Offline BGBMAW

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Good Antiwar Argument
« Reply #46 on: February 27, 2003, 05:00:51 PM »
yes


TOAD..you are wrong on this...


Quote
TOAD says...What US civilian lives lost can you trace directly to Iraq? I'll step up and say we need a definitive "traceable" act against us in order to justify this war.



Is giving money to terroists/suicide bomers a link??

Yes it is..

Does IRAQ give 25$k to families of suicide bomers ?..

Yes they Do

Have Americans been targets and victims in Isreal?

Yes They have and are...

So Toad...Whats your response...Not enuff of a link to say Saddam supports Terror on countries he doesnt like??

Do you not beleive the News about hi up Al Queda guys being in and about IRaq?...I could believe it.

Yes I understand News is so Golly-gee hard to say its fact..but when things sound and look like a Duck..Ill say it is till other "facts" say different..It would be called a hypothisis..or..an Educauted Guess...


1 more..Do you Think Saddam should be free to have as much Bio-Chem-Nuc weapons as he wants? I say hell no...and Iraq admitted after we found so much of his WMD's.in 1991..and now..they say they dont have any..but dont have proof...Sounds good..


Fuk Speelling


Love
BiGB
xoxo


Please respond
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Offline Hangtime

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Good Antiwar Argument
« Reply #47 on: February 27, 2003, 05:02:32 PM »
The art of diplomacy is saying 'nice doggie' while yah look for a big rock.

War remains the most direct and fully understood form of international diplomacy.

Which explains the presence of General grade officers in every diplomatic mission.
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The price of Freedom is the willingness to do sudden battle, anywhere, any time and with utter recklessness...

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Offline Dowding

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Good Antiwar Argument
« Reply #48 on: February 27, 2003, 05:04:06 PM »
Quote
They didn't like the British when they used mustard gas on them to kill thousands during demonstrations.


Mustard gas was only sanctioned against the Arab tribes in Iraq - it was never used due to a lack of delivery system.
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War! Never been so much fun. War! Never been so much fun! Go to your brother, Kill him with your gun, Leave him lying in his uniform, Dying in the sun.

Offline udet

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Good Antiwar Argument
« Reply #49 on: February 27, 2003, 08:10:00 PM »
Quote
Originally posted by 2stony
Originally posted by GRUNHERZ

 

     Did you read my thread titled "who need oil"? Hydrogen fuel would be $.76 in peak times and $.38 during the Spring runoff. Also, the only residue from burned hydrogen is water vapor(which equals no pollution).


Quit whining and push for hydrogen.

:)



actually, hydrogen has very low density, which means it needs larger storage space. I don't think it's practical for automobiles.
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Offline Toad

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Good Antiwar Argument
« Reply #50 on: February 27, 2003, 09:16:19 PM »
Quote
Originally posted by beet1e
Mr. Toad, I don't think that going to war with Iraq would make the US an aggressor nation.


Going into Iraq to enforce UN Security Council resolutions when a majority of the Security Council is against such action makes my country an agressor nation in my eyes.

I don't think much of the UN at all. However, we've worked within the framework of the UN and the Security Council for 12 years on Iraq. Now we decide that if the SC won't agree, we can ignore them?

The SC's failure to act may well make the UN irrelevant.

The US's determination to act without SC approval makes the US an agressor. IMO.

I don't say that lightly, either.

.......and Animal is the one with a rolleyes allergy.
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Offline Toad

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« Reply #51 on: February 27, 2003, 09:22:08 PM »
Hortlund, with me it's not about any of those things you mentioned.

It's about being at peace with myself.

Going to war is a horrible thing. I think you have to have a damn good reason to do so. Far better minds than mind wrestled with this problem and came up with "Just War Theory". I read it and studied before I ever embarked upon my military career. It means something to me and I believe in it.

Show me where this upcoming military action against Iraq by the US acting without the sanction of the UN fits under "just war" and I'll reconsider.

What has Iraq done to the US that justifies pre-emptive war by the UN against Iraq?
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If ye love wealth better than liberty, the tranquility of servitude than the animated contest of freedom, go from us in peace. We ask not your counsels or arms. Crouch down and lick the hands which feed you. May your chains sit lightly upon you, and may posterity forget that you were our countrymen!

Offline Toad

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Good Antiwar Argument
« Reply #52 on: February 27, 2003, 09:33:57 PM »
Quote
Originally posted by BGBMAW
 Does IRAQ give 25$k to families of suicide bomers ?..


They supposedly give money to Palestinian suicide bombers that strike Israel. You seen any proof that they have done so? Smiling family of Palestinian suicide bombers driving off in their new Mercedes? That would be Israel's problem anyway, wouldn't it? Or is our military now an extension of Israeli foreign policy?

Have they given any money to the families of suicide bombers that have struck the US?

None that I have heard about.


Quote
Originally posted by BGBMAW
Have Americans been targets and victims in Isreal?


I am not aware of any attacks that DIRECTLY targeted Americans in Israel. I'm willing to listen if you have proven examples.

Secondly, are you proposing that the US avenge any US citizen accidentally killed in a war zone (and Israel is a war zone)? Because I don't support that either. I expect US citizens to realize the risk they run when the enter a war zone.

Quote
Originally posted by BGBMAW


1. Not enuff of a link to say Saddam supports Terror on countries he doesnt like??

2. Do you not beleive the News about hi up Al Queda guys being in and about IRaq?...I could believe it.

3.Do you Think Saddam should be free to have as much Bio-Chem-Nuc weapons as he wants?  


1. Nope, not enough of a link.

2. I believe there are probably A/Q operatives in Iraq. I believe there are some in Iran, France, Britain, Germanym, Saudi Arabia and even...... the United States. Until you DIRECTLY LINK them to the government of these countries and show that the government is offering them support you have nothing.

3. No. I'd like to see Iraq disarmed and Saddam removed. However, I'd like that to be the DECISION OF THE WORLD COMMUNITY, not a basically unilateral action by the US. (And stow the "40 other countries"; if WE weren't going, the other 40 sure as heck wouldn't have any interest in going at all.

I'm for it IF the US has a mandate from the world community to do so. Otherwise, we're just an aggressor, something we've fought hard against for so long.
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If ye love wealth better than liberty, the tranquility of servitude than the animated contest of freedom, go from us in peace. We ask not your counsels or arms. Crouch down and lick the hands which feed you. May your chains sit lightly upon you, and may posterity forget that you were our countrymen!

Offline Eagler

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here you go Toad...
« Reply #53 on: February 27, 2003, 10:05:15 PM »


I think the war is needed to remove a madman. All for someone else doing it but no one else seems to have the guts.

using your argument, the US should never have declared war on  Germany then ... what did Hitler do directly to us??
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Offline GRUNHERZ

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« Reply #54 on: February 27, 2003, 10:07:10 PM »
Hitler declared war on the US...
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Offline Staga

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« Reply #55 on: February 27, 2003, 10:35:42 PM »
Very good post Toad.
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Offline Staga

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Re: here you go Toad...
« Reply #56 on: February 27, 2003, 10:36:53 PM »
Quote
Originally posted by Eagler
I think the war is needed to remove a madman.  


Are you talking about Hussein or Bush Jr. ?
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Offline Toad

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« Reply #57 on: February 27, 2003, 10:40:24 PM »
Well, Eagler, for starters, Hitler declared war on us first.  ;)
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If ye love wealth better than liberty, the tranquility of servitude than the animated contest of freedom, go from us in peace. We ask not your counsels or arms. Crouch down and lick the hands which feed you. May your chains sit lightly upon you, and may posterity forget that you were our countrymen!

Offline Naso

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« Reply #58 on: February 28, 2003, 03:19:11 AM »
Quote
Originally posted by Toad
I'm for it IF the US has a mandate from the world community to do so. Otherwise, we're just an aggressor, something we've fought hard against for so long.


Very good post Toad, particularly the quoted part.
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Offline straffo

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« Reply #59 on: February 28, 2003, 03:35:05 AM »
loving Good post Toad !




Quote
Originally posted by john9001
you people make much out of nothing, the only problem in iraq is somebody called saddam , when he is gone  there will be peace.


You pretty much assume that Iraq is peupled by Iraqi ... it's plain wrong.

Ever heard of the Kurds for exemple ?
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