Author Topic: Enough is Enough!  (Read 4331 times)

Offline Sandman

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« Reply #90 on: August 27, 2003, 01:40:20 PM »
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Originally posted by Eagler
seems logical without any belief in a hereafter or reincarnation, one would gravitate towards an extremely selfish mindset and lifestyle - even worse than is in existence now


It doesn't seem logical to me. I don't treat people kindly because I worry about hell. I do so, because I expect the same treatment in return.

No man is an island.
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Offline Saurdaukar

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« Reply #91 on: August 27, 2003, 01:45:32 PM »
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Originally posted by Sandman_SBM
It doesn't seem logical to me. I don't treat people kindly because I worry about hell. I do so, because I expect the same treatment in return.

No man is an island.


How much you wanna wager a Bible thumper can find something similar in the good book?

Im willing to bet you canb trace most 'morals' back to the Bible is one for or another.

Offline Sandman

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« Reply #92 on: August 27, 2003, 01:55:51 PM »
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Originally posted by Saurdaukar

Im willing to bet you canb trace most 'morals' back to the Bible is one for or another.


I'm willing to bet you can trace them even further.
sand

Offline lord dolf vader

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« Reply #93 on: August 27, 2003, 02:08:39 PM »
one more here for the religion free state.

i believe if you read th page (s) of quotes by our forfathers you will find their opinion of organized religion there.

this guy is nothing but a amway salesman ( tax free)

Offline midnight Target

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« Reply #94 on: August 27, 2003, 02:10:32 PM »
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Originally posted by Dnil
seperation of church and state.  Keeps the state out of the church, not the church out of the state.


Good stuff apache.  I like hearing from where our founding fathers came from and their mindsights.  Thats how you understand where America came from.


Thomas Paine :


        "I do not believe in the creed professed by the Jewish Church, by the Roman Church, by the Greek Church, by the Turkish Church, by the Protestant Church, nor by any church that I know of. My own mind is my own church. (Richard Emery Roberts, ed. "Excerpts from The Age of Reason". Selected Writings of Thomas Paine. New York: Everbody's Vacation Publishing Co., 1945, p. 362) "


It does both Dnil. Don't try to out FF us with quotes from the obviously Christian FF's. There are just as many that mention a need to keep religion out of the government.

Offline Charon

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« Reply #95 on: August 27, 2003, 02:17:46 PM »
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Oh, and Charon... is it possible for anyone to speak out on what he believes is wrong without being called a Nazi?


Well, when you talk about the need to take the nation back from the hands of a degenerate minority, then you are using language that helped Hitler rise to power in 1933.  I'm not saying that anybody is a Nazi, just that these arguments have been heard before, with real world results that show what can happen.

For example:

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Just as liberalism after the French Revolution had various effects on every nation and people, depending on their nature and character, the same is true today for the forces that oppose it. German democracy was always a particular playground of European liberalism. Its innate tendency towards excessive individualism was foreign to us, which lost it any connection to real political life after the war. It had nothing to do with the people. It represented not the totality of the nation, but turned into a perpetual war between interests that gradually destroyed the national and social foundations of our people's existence.

National Socialism was able to overcome this condition of continual spiritual, economic and political crises only because the German people themselves regained their composure, and found a political idea and organization that corresponded to the character of the German nation. Nation Socialism is a completely German phenomenon. It can only be understood in the framework of German conditions and forces. Like Mussolini once said about Fascism, "it is not for export."

Goebbels, On the occasion of the first Nuremberg Rally that followed Hitler's 1933 takeover of power.


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From now on we are going to wage a merciless war of destruction against the last remaining elements of cultural disintegration... Should there be someone among [the artists] who still believes in his higher destiny — well now, he has four years' time to prove himself. These four years are sufficient for us, too, to make a judgement. From now on — of that you can be certain — all those mutually supporting and thereby sustaining cliques of chatterers, dilettantes, and art forgers will be picked up and liquidated. For all we care, those prehistoric Stone-Age culture-barbarians and art-stutterers can return to the caves of their ancestors and there can apply their primitive international scratchings.

Adolf Hitler
Munich, July 18, 1937
From his speech at the opening of "Grosse Deutsche Kunstausstellung", an art exhibit of "approved art" symbolizing Germany and the Third Reich. It was the first of eight annual exhibits.


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Germany fell into misfortune only after the individual believed he should pursue his interests at the cost of the general welfare.

Germany's misery will end when the individual sees the general welfare as the best guarantee of his own own.

Goebbels delivered this speech in Munich on 31 July 1932, the day of the national elections to the Reichstag.


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Where are these same lawyers when I see that imbecile with 60 piercings hanging out of his/her face, and Tee Shirt blaring to the world "I hate God", or "***** the World"... those things offend me, how come they aren't removed from my sight? Why, because I am able to turn a blind eye to those actions, behaviors, and opinions.
When another American burns a flag, it turns my stomach, but I am not allowed to stop it... why, because it is their right to expression. SO I am forced to turn a blind eye.
Bodhi


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As for the 20% that do not acknowledge the Old Testament, learn to look away, and leave it that. Because I for one, am tired of having to conform to a minorities petty antics aimed at governing how I live my life. Enough is Enough. It is time for those that believe in what I have said to stand up for what they believe in and take this country back from those that are ripping it apart.
Bodhi


Charon

Offline Saurdaukar

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« Reply #96 on: August 27, 2003, 02:23:36 PM »
I cant say it wasnt well played, but I still fail to draw a connection between speaches made by Nazi's and Bodhi's words.

In fact, the only connection I can draw is the similar belief that a segment of the population in each respective country was bringing down the majority.

In Germany's case, we know that it was simply propaganda aimed at creating a common enemy for the German people.

In America's case, I think the statement is spot on.  Can you look back 10-20 years and say that its better now that it was then?  Would you state that we have more freedom to be ourselves, or less?

Offline Sandman

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« Reply #97 on: August 27, 2003, 03:02:45 PM »
Nostalgia is not to be trusted.
sand

Offline Octavius

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« Reply #98 on: August 27, 2003, 03:14:30 PM »
I cant believe I read every post in this thread .

Anyone read Robert Anton Wilson's Quantum Psychology or Prometheus Rising?  They are golden.
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Offline Dnil

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« Reply #99 on: August 27, 2003, 03:35:19 PM »
its a train wreck waiting to happen.  I have faith, lots of it.  I am not religious at all.  Not once did I state where I stand on the 10 commandments thing.  I only thanked Apache for those quotes, yet the rabid atheists jump on me.  Interesting.

What in you decides right or wrong?  Why do you make the moral choices you do?

Do you cheat on your spouse?  Do you cheat people at work?  What tells you its wrong?  Why is it wrong?

Offline Dago

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« Reply #100 on: August 27, 2003, 03:49:05 PM »
Here are some quotes from this thread, and reading them makes me sad for the writers, as I feel they are so strong up in their beliefs, they may be losing the ability to view issues from both sides.


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Because I for one, am tired of having to conform to a minorities petty antics aimed at governing how I live my life.


But you are fine with forcing or exposing your beliefs on others?  You are convinced that every Jewish person, every Muslim, every Buddist should have to approach the courtroom and be reminded that his chance of justice is based on the beliefs of someone who practices another religion.

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and take this country back from those that are ripping it apart.


Yeah, darn those people who believe differantly than you, cause durn sure tooting your views, your religion are the one and only truth, and dang it all, lets force it down their throats?  This free choice idea is obviously a bad idea, right?

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strange how ppl can't see that a majority of our problems begin with a lack of a belief in the Divine


Strange how many people in this world are so sure they and the members of their church are the only ones with a clue and everyone else is the problem. I work with a couple guys who belong to the Old Apostolic Lutheran Church.  They tell me that only members of Old Apostolic Lutheran Church are practicing true Christianity and as such will be the only ones allowed into heaven.  A closed mind is so sad to witness, as we are seeing in this thread.  Not everyone accepts your definition of the "Divine".  Too bad you can't respect their right to choose.

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our laws are a by product of the ten commandments - sorry - that is history


This of course isn't even close to correct, and as demonstrated in the other thread of similar vain on the board. Only two, read that, TWO commandments have laws that corrspond, no killing, no stealing.  If our laws are based on the Ten Commandments, what happened to the other 8?

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Next thing you know L Ron hubbards Picture will be hanging on court house walls.


Why not?  Many people believe in him and his preaching, they are Americans, maybe they should have his picture on display?  Why limit it?  Lets hang pictures of all persons/items/animals/plants/planets that people worship in all government buildings.  Whats that you say?  Only your beliefs are correct so only YOUR Lords picture/preaching should hang there?  Hmmm, closed minded aren't you?

Just as feverantly as you might argue that only Christianity is the true religion, others will argue the same of many many other beliefs.  Many will offer examples, proofs, relics just as you offer the Bible as the word.

I am sorry, but while I would strongly defend your right to worship as you choose, to practice your beliefs and live within our countries laws as you see fit, I just as strongly feel that our government and government property should be and stay neutral in matters of religious preference.

dago
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Offline MarkVZ

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« Reply #101 on: August 27, 2003, 04:09:11 PM »
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but what faith were your parents? anyone you looked up to in your formative years?

how many of those ppl were athiests? did you have a bad experience with organized religion?


I *believe* that my partents are Prezbyterian, don't quote me on that.  Neither are very religious people, though, and don't regularly attend church as far as I know.  My mother is far too busy to do so right now anyways.  

I can't say that the people I looked up to were religious.  I attended Bible school at a yong age, but I soon grew frustrated by it, perhaps intimidated.  It all seemed like another fairy tale to me, with all the things that apparently defied physics and the terrible terrible things that would befall those who didn't act in a certain way.  I haven't been to church for services in maybe 10 years now.  My parents never made me go.  I started questioning the whole thing in 6-7 grade and then decided within a few years that I was an atheist.  I thought perhaps it was just an anti-authority thing, but I haven't "grown out of it" yet.  I feel it's what I really believe.  Perhaps it stems from the apparent fear of going to "hell" I learned at an early age, and when I got older I resented religion for trying to instill that fear into me.  I never felt as though any God was watching over me or that I had any guidance from such a being.  

So I guess you could consider me a "first generation" atheist.  I'm the only one that I know of in my immediate family.

If I ever do have children of my own, I will leave the subject open for their decision, as my parents did for me as soon as I was old enough to figure things out.  I'm not out to convert anyone or create more atheists.  What I believe makes the most sense to me so I'm sticking with it.  I want my children to be able to see all of the options and chose for themselves without any bias from me.

As far as the rock goes, it alone never really bothered me.  I'm just worried about what might follow if it was ruled that it was OK to stay there.  IMO the line has to be drawn somewhere.

Offline Charon

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« Reply #102 on: August 27, 2003, 04:22:08 PM »
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In America's case, I think the statement is spot on. Can you look back 10-20 years and say that its better now that it was then? Would you state that we have more freedom to be ourselves, or less?


Frankly, I think it's better now than it has been since the founding of the country and all the "Golden Ages" in between. I don’t want to see these freedoms turned back.

1700s -1800s. Capitalists tired of paying England say "Screw You" rag tag military outlasts red coats with help from the hated French. We were founded as a slave owning country, with founding fathers that owned slaves. That has changed for the better but at a terrible cost in blood. The average person, educated or not, land owing or not can now vote. Irish and Chinamen need not apply. Swarthy Italians and other Eastern Europeans seen as an anarchist threat, pledge of allegiance becomes a way to start the day.

1900-1920. Birth of Nation shown in White House, glorifying the KKK and vilifying black former slaves as rapists of white women. Wilson says “It is like writing history with Lightning. And my only regret is that it is all so terribly true.” Lynching gets a public boost. WW1 comes and goes. Women can vote in 1918. 1920s alcohol banned as part of moral crusade, which does little to stop consumption but leads to an aggressive rise in organized crime. Sex becomes acceptable for a few years. Entertainment culture starts to rise with the Movies. Actors now heroes and not looked on in the same class as prostitutes. Lets buy stock on credit. In 1907, Indiana became the first state to pass a law permitting involuntary sterilizations on eugenic grounds; at least 30 states would follow. Involuntary sterilizations, genetic manipulation, race segregation and imprisonment were justified in order to save America from the high cost of treating defective individuals, who were responsible for the nation’s social ills.

1930s - Great Depression. Strange fruit still dangling from the trees down South. Jews need not apply. Socialism (or that Communist Roosevelt) helps start pulling America out of the economic pit. Alcohol legalized when prohibition seen as full of ****. Three Stooges amuse some for unknown reasons.

1940s - WW2. German and Italian POWs still have more rights in some parts than black servicemen in uniform. Rosy the riviter proves she can get the job done and considers a broader role in society -- until the men return from the war.

The 1950s a "Golden Era" unless you happened to be a minority, attended a perfectly legal socialist or communist meeting at some point in time (house committee on un-American activities lives up to its name through unamerican activities), were a housewife looking for opportunities beyond the kitchen and bedroom, were a "company man" in the "Man in the Grey Flannel Suit" mold. WW2 vets not afraid to see real life issues portrayed in the movies. Man with the Golden Arm, etc. Experiments on soldiers using a-bombs and biological agents.

The 1960s - both a time of liberation and excess, kind of a wash. The Vietnam war, the sexual revolution, drug culture as rebellion. But, there was the civil rights movement. Separate but equal was found to be separate and repressive and unequal. Some still lament the days when the darkies knew their place.

The 1970s - boring but gradually progressive. Arena Rock was displaced by disco. Archie Bunker deals with a taboo. More minorities on TV. MASH. A miscommunication occurs between Jack, Janet and Crissy. All’s worked out in the end. Herpies and AIDs get a foothold.

1980s, greed is good, synthesizer music replaces disco. Communism falls. The rise of the moral crusade to return America to the "good old days" of the 1950s. Recession and national debt, junk bonds. My personal freedom increases dramatically with graduation from HS. Finally emerge from the haze about 1987. Education slips, recession starts.

1990s. Recession ends, Great Satan in the White House, guitars and rock return. Rap goes mainstream. White girls kiss Black boys in the media. Men kiss men, women kiss women in non porn settings. Grouchy old man Jones once again says the country going to hell in a handbasket. Individual freedoms start to decrease under Clinton in political bid to appease get tough on crime elements, which is overlooked by liberal supporters. MTV etc. increasingly crosses the line selling sex to kids. Education slips further.

2000s. Bush comes in as part of a great conservative backlash that garners support from almost exactly half of America, and picks advisors his father would have avoided. Fear of third-rate horse**** elements who got lucky once prompt hysterical reaction to further curtail freedoms. Ashcroft hits the road to sell security vs freedom. Education slips further, but remains a popular political buz word. J-lo and that tool from Pearl Harbor show how silly celebrity culture worship really is. Ripsnort posts another thread about his BMW. Charon posts another long-winded thread. FDBs eat hot wings.

Really a mixed bag. But I certainly don't believe religious freedoms are being curtailed, or that religion is under attack. Rather, I believe that people who don't want to see the book of Revelations taught in science class have to increasingly defend their rights from others who feel there is one true faith and you had better get on board.

Democracy is not easy and it has its disadvantages. Freedoms are sloppy. However, the more you shift from individual freedoms the more you move into a government that is less free and less democratic, and I believe in resisting the temptation to move in that direction.

Charon
« Last Edit: August 27, 2003, 05:01:03 PM by Charon »

Offline Sandman

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« Reply #103 on: August 27, 2003, 04:27:30 PM »
Great read. Thanx Charon.
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Offline Bodhi

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« Reply #104 on: August 27, 2003, 05:22:26 PM »
Quote
Originally posted by Charon
Well, when you talk about the need to take the nation back from the hands of a degenerate minority, then you are using language that helped Hitler rise to power in 1933.  I'm not saying that anybody is a Nazi, just that these arguments have been heard before, with real world results that show what can happen.
Charon


Charon, I never said "degenerate minority".  You put those words into my mouth.  And you also accused me of being a Nazi... wrong again...

I have never advocated in ANY of my statements the removal of any one based on race, creed, or beliefs. I only advocated that the minority of this population who was anti-God grow up and look the other way.  

You seem determined to drag this down to a race riot, if that's your idea, it is wasted.  The problem with this "trump card" so often played is just that, it is too often played.  I again state I have never done anything to warrant be called anti-minority and actually feel that I have done more to actually be friendly towards minorities.  Unfortunately any time some one suggests something that goes against what the wonderous Rainbow Coalition says, we get the "your a racist or a nazi" statement.  Too bad that that organisation and it's zealots are so narrow minded and misled, if they actually worked for a goal instead of personal gain, they might actually effect some changes for good.

As for those thinking I am advocating any type of organised religion, I am not.  I rarely go to church, the last time was for my brother's funeral.  Instead I choose to read the bible which I know to be the truth for me.  If that is wrong or offends some of you, too damn bad, it is my right.

For those of you advocating that this country was not founded by CHristians, think again.  Of and that wonderous statement saying that our laws are pagan beliefs, wrong again.  This country actually came very close to adopting the language of Hebrew to be that much different from the English.  That said, it is also proven that the founding fathers very much believed in God and therefore allowed that belief to flow over into their writings.  

Oh, and for the comment stating I have never read the Constitution or Bill of Rights because I made the statement "this Nation was founded under the idea of "ONE NATION UNDER GOD" get a clue.  I used the statement to empasize the fact that this Nation was founded under God.  Not that the constitution, Bill of Rights, and Pledge of Allegiance were one in the same.  Learn to read.

Lastly, the Constitutional Ammendment 1 says that:

Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof; or abridging the freedom of speech, or of the press; or the right of the people peaceably to assemble, and to petition the Government for a redress of grievances.

Nowhere in that statement does it say that a biblical writing can not be displayed on government property.  Nor does displaying such a writing constitute the establishment of any religion over the state.  What it does say is that the goverment CAN NOT prefer one religion over another, plain and simple.  Putting a "10 Commandments" Monument in the court house (paid for by PRIVATE funds) was not a problem, taking it away because it offended a few lawyers is the wrong and a misguided action on the behalf of the high courts.  Because if that one monument is wrong, then we had best remove the words God from EVERYTHING associated with the Government.

I will maintain my statements of before in saying that this country is headed for disaster with the current moral fiber being perpetuated.  Violence and wrong doings are so much the norm, that many people are losing sight of this.  Unless Hollywood says it is so, most don't believe it.  That said, looking at the America of 60 years ago, the moral fiber was stronger and of such a quality that our way of life was not only better, but emulated by the millions who still wished to emigrate to be a part of it.
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