Author Topic: school vouchers (Read 4596 times)

Kieran · « **Reply #165 on:** September 10, 2003, 11:10:28 AM »

Quote

Originally posted by Rude
How do you explain private schools cost per student ratio being significantly less than that of public schools, yet the product they turn out is superior to that of public schools?

I'm not arguing at all; I think vouchers are a grrrrrrrreat idea!

AKIron · « **Reply #166 on:** September 10, 2003, 11:14:22 AM »

Quote

Originally posted by Kieran
I'm not arguing at all; I think vouchers are a grrrrrrrreat idea!

You're smarter than I thought.

Kieran · « **Reply #167 on:** September 10, 2003, 11:47:02 AM »

Quote

Originally posted by AKIron
You're smarter than I thought.

How can that be? I am a public school teacher...

AKIron · « **Reply #168 on:** September 10, 2003, 11:55:58 AM »

Quote

Originally posted by Kieran
How can that be? I am a public school teacher...

Oh well, just shows what I know, having gone to public school and all.

Holden McGroin · « **Reply #169 on:** September 10, 2003, 12:09:39 PM »

Quote

Originally posted by lazs2
but kieran... you claim it all the parents fault... I believe you... we should be doing our best to get rid of public schools and get something better. if you have any suggestions to improving public schools then I have yet to hear it.

The idea is not to get rid of public education, it is to foster improvement by introducing large scale competition.

Wanker · « **Reply #170 on:** September 10, 2003, 12:27:42 PM »

Quote

they cry unfair when it is pointed out that EVERONE who tries including parents (home schooling) does a better job than they do..

Give home school parents 35 kids to teach, each with diffferent backgrounds and varying degrees of motivation and abilities...and give them only 50 minutes each day to teach these 35 students. Oh yes, and they have to be complete strangers, so they can face all the discipline problems a public school teacher has. Once that happens, only then will we see if they're doing a better job than a public school teacher.

Lazs, even you could teach someone something if you had 12 hours a day of one-on-one contact with them. This is what the average home school parent has. Public School teachers don't have that luxury.

You know how many students my wife teaches each week? 750. Think about how easy or difficult it would be to try to get 750 different people educated in your job each week.

Kieran · « **Reply #171 on:** September 10, 2003, 01:11:55 PM »

Give it up, banana. These guys are convinced it is the only way to save education. Feel free to laugh when it doesn't.

capt. apathy · « **Reply #172 on:** September 10, 2003, 01:19:04 PM »

Quote

Give home school parents 35 kids to teach, each with diffferent backgrounds and varying degrees of motivation and abilities...and give them only 50 minutes each day to teach these 35 students. Oh yes, and they have to be complete strangers, so they can face all the discipline problems a public school teacher has.

sure, put them in a public school setting (as they are run now), and anyone would likely have the same results as now.

the teachers should be able to tell the difference between an attack on the system and an attack on teachers. there are some great teachers out there, it's the system that is screwed.

wrag · « **Reply #173 on:** September 10, 2003, 01:31:25 PM »

banana, Kieran PLEASE...

I for one DO NOT blame the teachers! OK?

I was very fortunate to have known at least 5 different teachers that were caring concerned individuals that tried so very hard to teach the subjects they were so very good in. I guess you could say I was blessed. They made up for, at least in my view, a couple that were most sadly lacking in the teaching department.

I understand Unions though. Unions can and will do things that aren't always in the members interest. They claim it is but... in far too many ways Unions can be totally anti-constitutional, totally anti-freedom. And you're stuck with what they do in your name/membership even when you disagree. It could be argued the Auto Workers Unions paved the way for the American Automotive situation we now have. The cost seemed to keep going up and the product quality seemed to get worse. It seemed the Unions were helping to create a hugh opening for someone, like the Japanese automotive industry, to fill the void. It's all now history.

What several people seem to be trying to say here is something is wrong with our system. I am in agreement, that something is wrong with our education system.

Over and over I see the MORE MONEY thing and over and over I see student education gettin worse and worse. That this gets laid at the door of parents is not entirely accurate due mainly to the NEA and certain individuals that are involved with it. How can I say this? The information is there. One only need look at it from another viewpoint. The information is there. I see allot of special interest groups, and here I disagree that it is all parental advocate groups, making changes and getting laws past that actually hurt education.

No child left behind? Excuse me... some could and should, at least temporarily, be left behind or put into special classes or a school that is just for them. Oh a Social stigma you say? sorry but if someone choses to not learn or someone has a real problem with learning for some reason IMHO THAT does not create a situation where everyone else must be held back or punished because of it. I'm very very tired of being told it's everyone fault, all must take the blame that little Billy's parents are crack heads. I DON'T THINK SO! What happened to personnel responsibility? What happened to self-governing individuals? I could tell you. You've seen it. Oh so subtle but ... They've been singled out and punished. They've been singled out and shamed and ridiculed before all for being who they are. It SEEMS The State has become the all important, the all knowing, the we will take care of you so shut up, and most sadly the all consuming.

Right now there is NO choice, or very little choice for parents when it comes to education. Right now they HAVE TO PAY for schools they may not want to use. Right now many can not pay for both. And so they have NO CHOICE!

And what I see here is many saying I want a choice! Let's give people a choice!

I do not see remove or destroy public education here! I do see a lets make it better if we can attitude.

Will there be laws made to control private schools? YEP already in the works. Are the politicians reaching for control of home schoolers YOU BET! Happening right now as we give our opinions and say our say. We must do our best for ourselves and our children while we can.

Is the voucher system an answer? The answer? Some think so, some do not. But we have to TRY! And it's already been said WHY.

Wanker · « **Reply #174 on:** September 10, 2003, 01:48:56 PM »

wrag, I know you don't balme the teachers, but Lazs does, and that's why I quoted him.

You make a lot of good points, and in a constructive way.

Wanker · « **Reply #175 on:** September 10, 2003, 02:13:14 PM »

Quote

Originally posted by capt. apathy
sure, put them in a public school setting (as they are run now), and anyone would likely have the same results as now.

the teachers should be able to tell the difference between an attack on the system and an attack on teachers. there are some great teachers out there, it's the system that is screwed.

I agree, Capt. But why then don't we focus on fixing what's broken with it?

-School should be year round....agreed.

-Teachers should work year round, earning vacation like everyone else in the private sector does....agreed.

-Teachers should not be represented by a union, and should instead be hired, payed and fired on an individual basis, just like the private sector.....agreed.

If you take the union out of the picture then, who is going to provide the teachers legal representation when they get sued by irate parents, or if they are accused of sexual molestation? Right now, that representation is provided by the NEA. Most teachers I know can't afford that kind of legal representation.

How are we going to solve the problem of overcrowded classrooms? Who's going to pay for it?

Who's going to pay for the increased salaries the teachers should get for working year round?

You were going to increase the teachers salaries to a level on a par with professionals in the private business sector, weren't you?

What do we do with the kids that don't want to learn or don't want to behave in school?

Holden McGroin · « **Reply #176 on:** September 10, 2003, 02:19:46 PM »

I don't blame teachers... I blame the system. My state has one of the highest tax to pupil ratios, but dollars to pupil measured at the classroom is one of the lowest. Adminstrative costs take out a huge bite.

Adminstration costs are way out of hand, and a profit motive would cause an immediate cutting of this overhead.

Why can't one principal handle several (or at least a few)neighborhood grammer schools?

Why can't lower level administrators teach at least half a day?

A profit motive would at least cause these questions to be asked.

lazs2 · « **Reply #177 on:** September 10, 2003, 02:26:05 PM »

where did you see me blaming teachers... you guys are about the most sensitive people I have ever seen... guess it comes from never working in the real world eh?

get rid of public school? maybe that was harsh.... get rid of public school as we know it.

banana... private schools work under the same large classrooms as public and with less resources in most cases and INVARIABLY do a beeter job.

kieran... no one accused you of being stupid (that sensitivity thing again no doubt) I do accuse you of overly defending your own self interest. That's fine but.... your self interest conflicts with mine... I want my grand daughter to get a good education. you want to continue with the worst education system in the world so far as bang for the buck goes.
lazs

Wanker · « **Reply #178 on:** September 10, 2003, 02:43:01 PM »

Lazs, private schools don't have a government mandate to educate everyone, so they can cherry pick whom they want to teach. They don't need to worry about special education, they can refuse to educate someone who doesn't want to learn, etc.

Your attempt to compare private schools with public schools is comparing apples to oranges. Private schools have the advantage because they can refuse to educate someone if that person creates a challenge or difficulties to that private school.

AKIron · « **Reply #179 on:** September 10, 2003, 03:08:56 PM »

Quote

Originally posted by banana
Private schools have the advantage because they can refuse to educate someone if that person creates a challenge or difficulties to that private school.

You're making a strong case for private schools. If a child is a discipline problem in public school what motivation does the parent have to become involved? For a private school it may only be the trouble of finding another school and perhaps the inconvenience of providing transportation. Still, that may spark more interest in helping their child to do better.

How many public schools still allow corporal punishment? Wanna bet it's allowed and even encouraged by parents far more in private schools? Some of you may think this is a bad thing. You're the ones that I want to take the control from.