flying coffin.
at least the finns cant run away in that. :P
It's so small! I like it! :DFirst delivery was in '39.
Question, what year is the Brewster from? Just curious if it will be in any area besides LW.
Just did a little reading on it and its only armed with one .50 and one .30 cowl mounted MGs and it looks like a EW fighter.
Question, what year is the Brewster from?
It's so small! I like it! :DThe B-239's were first tested in Finland in 1940.
Question, what year is the Brewster from? Just curious if it will be in any area besides LW.
one .30 and one .50 cowl mounted MG and two optional wing mounted MGs. Not sure if they were put on wing pylons or actually inside the wing.In the wing.
Piece of junk, and the marines said so...US forces also said the P39 was a piece of junk and it was shipped over seas.
You know, with the new Typh and Buffalo not having and ammo counters I wonder if they are gonna remove them from the game? :noidLooks like ammo counters above the control stick. It looks like the cockpit's pretty unfinished, none of the instruments have any needles.
It's so small! I like it! :D
flying coffin.:rofl
at least the finns cant run away in that. :P
another hanger queen with an armament like that i dont see many flyin it. the novelty will wear off fairly quick similar to the p-39
Does anyone else see the new town or strat!! :O :O :O :O :O
another hanger queen with an armament like that i dont see many flyin it. the novelty will wear off fairly quick similar to the p-39
[rant]As I have told you guys many times, the vote was for the next aircraft only, not the next ten. The P-39 lost to the B-25 by less than 1%, so they did add it next. None of the other choices are set to any sort of add order based on that vote.
I'm really surprised to see this added to the line up, previous voting results put this next to bottom of the list. Only 509 of them built, any other airplane would of been excluded for that reason.
What ever happened to ME-410, HE-111, Yak 3 or the A-26?
[/rant]
i love the 39 i see the all the time in mid war, brewster will not keep fast cannons slinging dweebs happy for long that is true but a hanger queen? i think not
another hanger queen with an armament like that i dont see many flyin it. the novelty will wear off fairly quick similar to the p-39
Im confused? I thought the Buffalo was american, why does it have nazi signs?Contrary to (unfortunately) popular belief, the Swastika was not a Nazi symbol. It was around for thousands of years, being associated with good luck in cultures around the world before the Nazis defaced it and gave it a new connotation for Western Culture (I'm not sure if the same connotations are held in other cultures?). The blue swastika in the white circle was adopted as the roundel for the Finnish Air Force in 1918.
Im confused? I thought the Buffalo was american, why does it have nazi signs?
Im confused? I thought the Buffalo was american, why does it have nazi signs?
Contrary to (unfortunately) popular belief, the Swastika was not a Nazi symbol. It was around for thousands of years, being associated with good luck in cultures around before the Nazis defaced it and gave it a new connotation for Western Culture (I'm not sure if the same connotations are held in other cultures?). The blue swastika in the white circle was adopted as the roundel for the Finnish Air Force in 1918.It is still very popular as a good luck symbol in India.
We have the version that was sold to the Finns, I would assume, because it's the one that saw the most significant service, being the mount of some of the highest scoring aces of all time.
Nothing like adding an aircraft that was completely outdated and outclassed when the war started. At least it's a new ride.There are not many aircraft left to be added that will not be whined about being "hangar queens" as most of the supermachines have already been put into the game.
Maybe for someone such as yourself that is only capable of flying fast late war planes but the Brewster fills a gap in the EW and even MW plane set. It's a great addition to the game that won't be a hanger queen in the EW and MW arenas.
ack-ack
well congrats to the early war flyers then, all 40 of you i dont do early war so all the better. Oh and by the way i dont like late war fast planes unless you call the A6m or Hurri C a fast plane. I just dont see many people upping it to often after the novelty wears off due to the meager armament. Thats just my opinion but we'll see what happens.
well congrats to the early war flyers then, all 40 of you i dont do early war so all the better. Oh and by the way i dont like late war fast planes unless you call the A6m or Hurri C a fast plane. I just dont see many people upping it to often after the novelty wears off due to the meager armament. Thats just my opinion but we'll see what happens.
And in order to have special events based on actual history you'd have to have the pre-war, and early war, Soviet aircraft the Finns actually flew against.
jeeze. Some of you are worse than kids. Its a good lookng plane, true it wont see alot of action in latewar but so what, its fills a void in scenarios, FSO, Snapshots, and it has been asked for for many many years. Not too many uber late war rides left, its about time we start filling in the early war stuff.
WTG superfly greebo and the rest of HTC. :rock
now back to the show
It is still very popular as a good luck symbol in India.
There are not many aircraft left to be added that will not be whined about being "hangar queens" as most of the supermachines have already been put into the game.
Oh, and it's another american ride. Surprise.... then snore.
Technically the Model 239 was Finnish. Yes it's an American design built in the States, but the Finns stripped most or all of the armor off, removed the naval equipment (arrestor hook, etc) increased the armament, (4x.50cal instead of 1.30 and 3x.50) and made a large number of other changes (basically stripped her BACK into the plane that Boyington said was actually very good until the Navy overloaded her). The 239 is completely distinct from the F2A-3 the USMC used at Midway, and the derivative export models the British and Dutch used in the early phases of the Pacific War.
Maybe for someone such as yourself that is only capable of flying fast late war planes but the Brewster fills a gap in the EW and even MW plane set. It's a great addition to the game that won't be a hanger queen in the EW and MW arenas.
ack-ack
Smoke I think you should be reported for posting an original opinion and one that you really mean. How dare you!
Remember all the pages of the herd going gaa-gaa over the P-39? How many of them do you think still fly it?
And in order to have special events based on actual history you'd have to have the pre-war, and early war, Soviet aircraft the Finns actually flew against. What are you going to do? Match the Buffalos against LAs and Yak-9s?
Hey it would be great to re-create the Winter war in the air. But to do so you'd have to model a couple/three early war Soviet fighters 95% of your customer base would also only fly once. And there are far more planes we need more and would be used more.
But...your right. The Buffalo deserves a chance. Maybe I'm wrong and maybe it will find a niche.
So an original opinion pretty much equals a whine then, gotcha. Just out of curiousity, are you being forced to fly it, or does theHe wants the A-26 and is probable very disappointed right now.
extra data on your hard drive slow it down THAT much? :rolleyes:
Oh, and it's another american ride. Surprise.... then snore.
flying coffin.
at least the finns cant run away in that. :P
I say Give it a Blue n yellow Paint Scheme and call it a Peashooter
:lol
The AH pilot does look too big.
Now since its gear was crank-operated, will that be modeled?
Technically the Model 239 was Finnish. Yes it's an American design built in the States, but the Finns stripped most or all of the armor off, removed the naval equipment (arrestor hook, etc) increased the armament, (4x.50cal instead of 1.30 and 3x.50) and made a large number of other changes (basically stripped her BACK into the plane that Boyington said was actually very good until the Navy overloaded her). The 239 is completely distinct from the F2A-3 the USMC used at Midway, and the derivative export models the British and Dutch used in the early phases of the Pacific War.
As required by the "Neutrality Act," Brewster modified the F2A by replacing its government-supplied engine, gun sight, and direction finder with export-approved equipment. It took out the life raft and arresting hook, and doubled the firepower by installing two half-inch machine guns in the wings. (Like most American fighters of the time, the F2A had two nose-mounted machine guns, synchronized to fire through the propeller arc.) Lastly, it painted out Felix, the bomb-carrying cartoon cat that was the mascot of VF-3. The company produced 44 of these "de-navalized" fighters under the designation B-239.
The B-239s went by boat to Norway, then by train to Sweden, where they were assembled by Norwegian air force mechanics under the supervision of Brewster engineers. The Americans didn't lack for smokes or news of the Brooklyn Dodgers: their buddies in Queens had stuffed the wing panels with cigarettes, magazines, and newspapers.
A Finnish variant of the F2A, the VL (Valtion Lentokonetehdas) Humu was intended as a replacement for the Finnish Air Force's worn-out F2A-1 Buffalo fighters, which could not be replaced due to poor wartime availability of imported combat aircraft. The most significant changes from the original F2A-1 were a wooden wing (necessary due to material shortages) and a Russian M-63 engine purchased from Germany. The project soon fell behind schedule and the Humu proved to be inferior to the F2A-1 due to a higher aircraft weight, among other factors . Only one aircraft was delivered, and it never entered Finnish service. [History by Jeff VanDerford with significant contributions by P. Kojo and Sampo Vuorinen.]
Lusche = Brewster Test Pilot? :):lol Probably!
The Brewster is about as Finnish as baseball.
Morons think before opening your mouths. Scenarios and FSOs' will employ the Buffalo.
If you don't like it in the MA don't fly it simple.
Are there really that many scenarios that the Buffalo can be used for that you couldn't sub in the F4F/Fm2?
Was kinda hoping for something a little more useful.
Are there really that many scenarios that the Buffalo can be used for that you couldn't sub in the F4F/Fm2?
Was kinda hoping for something a little more useful.
Are there really that many scenarios that the Buffalo can be used for that you couldn't sub in the F4F/Fm2?
Was kinda hoping for something a little more useful.
Well it seems as tho the Buffalo will be flying Axis so you don't have to worry about it being in the American plane set even tho it's an American Design.The Buffalo was most famous for its service with the Finnish Air Force, so it only makes sense that that's the version that was modeled...
(http://downloads.hitechcreations.com/screenshots/superfly/brewster/brewster4s.jpg) (http://downloads.hitechcreations.com/screenshots/superfly/brewster/brewster3s.jpg)
Axis??? The Buffalo?
Oh boy................it is apparent that a lot of History has been skipped over.
Look at the markings again.
those are Finlands markings.
Looks like swastika's on the wings to me. So who would you fly it for?
Contrary to (unfortunately) popular belief, the Swastika was not a Nazi symbol. It was around for thousands of years, being associated with good luck in cultures around the world before the Nazis defaced it and gave it a new connotation for Western Culture (I'm not sure if the same connotations are held in other cultures?). The blue swastika in the white circle was adopted as the roundel for the Finnish Air Force in 1918.
We have the version that was sold to the Finns, I would assume, because it's the one that saw the most significant service, being the mount of some of the highest scoring aces of all time.
Contrary to (unfortunately) popular belief, the Swastika was not a Nazi symbol. It was around for thousands of years, being associated with good luck in cultures around the world before the Nazis defaced it and gave it a new connotation for Western Culture
Looks like swastika's on the wings to me. So who would you fly it for?
Seems flying a plane with swastikas pasted all over it in WWll might be considered bad luck when surrounded by Allies. ........I'd shoot it.Well, I doubt the Finnish Air Force, let alone the hundreds of ancient cultures which used it from around the world, foresaw that an insane dictator from Germany would adopt the symbol and provoke the largest war in human history and commit massive genocide.
The swastika didn't help Manson out much either.
Axis??? The Buffalo?
Oh boy................it is apparent that a lot of History has been skipped over.
Look at the markings again.
those are Finlands markings.
Looks like swastika's on the wings to me. So who would you fly it for?
Um... maybe it is you that should do the reading.I'm not an expert on the subject, however I don't think Finland was ever allied with Germany, merely co-belligerents, along with; Bulgaria, China, Croatia, Denmark, Hungary, Manchukuo, Romania, Slovakia and Spain.
Finland was allied with Germany until 1944. Hence the fact that there are 109's with Finnish livery in the game. It wasn't until the Finns threw the Germans out in 1944 that they started fighting them. Therefore, Finland fought on both the Axis and the Allied side in WW2.
Um... maybe it is you that should do the reading.
Finland was allied with Germany until 1944. Hence the fact that there are 109's with Finnish livery in the game. It wasn't until the Finns threw the Germans out in 1944 that they started fighting them. Therefore, Finland fought on both the Axis and the Allied side in WW2.
um is a brewster like a german p47?
Laugh out loud, thanks. Another question, does the Buffalo turn well? I hope so.Turning well is relative, but if IL-2 is any indication, it will turn similar to a 109F with full flaps. In other words, it will be able to yank and bank to some extent, yes. But who cares about the turn rate. Turn rate is an excuse for not using ACM and handing the other pilot his bootay on a bullet-based platter.
Turning well is relative, but if IL-2 is any indication, it will turn similar to a 109F with full flaps. In other words, it will be able to yank and bank to some extent, yes. But who cares about the turn rate. Turn rate is an excuse for not using ACM and handing the other pilot his bootay on a bullet-based platter.
Quote translated into English as best as I could.
I'm not an expert on the subject, however I don't think Finland was ever allied with Germany, merely co-belligerents, along with; Bulgaria, China, Croatia, Denmark, Hungary, Manchukuo, Romania, Slovakia and Spain.
Sound like a "co-belligerent"?
Rich46yo,
Take this to O'Club. It does not belong here.
Get a job with an AH paycheck and then tell me what to write.
IMO Rich summarised the situation quite well.
[edit] uh.. did you take it away :(
There were just some minor details I would have liked to comment... but now I cannot remember what they were.[/edit]
I don't need AH paycheck to tell my opinion. Obviously I'm not a moderator here, nor am I backseat moderating IMO. But considering this thread is about a new aircraft for Aces High it would be pretty silly to get it locked with totally off topic material.
Description of this forum: Open forum for the general discussion of Aces High..
Its the history of the plane and well worth a re-post but most of all should not be influenced by your opinion of where it belongs.
The Topic's name is called BREWSTER BUFFALO and is a general disscussion about a plane that will become the newest addition to the game of ACES HIGH that we know of so far.
You know where to leave your opinion and who will decide whether it should stay or not.
Um... maybe it is you that should do the reading.:aok
Finland was allied with Germany until 1944. Hence the fact that there are 109's with Finnish livery in the game. It wasn't until the Finns threw the Germans out in 1944 that they started fighting them. Therefore, Finland fought on both the Axis and the Allied side in WW2.
The Finns in those Brewsters were defending themselves from a mass-murdering dictator with more resources and a higher ultimate body count than Hitler had. And they did it almost by themselves.
Your reading comprehension leaves lot to be desired.
If your offended by it...
From what I gather the Brewster we're getting is an American made, stripped down low production Swedish version that somehow ended up under Nazi control.
...er...not in 1941 they weren't...
- oldman
Actually Rich's post was about Finland's role in WWII in general.
BTW the Brewster Buffalo was an American airplane purchased by Finland. It was no more "Finnish" then the 109 was.
I answered a question, or responded to a statement made in the thread. If you feel like my next is overlong then just dont read it. Your not a Mod, and dont work for AH, so spare me the the proclamations.Rich, if you don't want to repost what you originally did, could you PM me? I've always been interested by Finland's largely unknown and kind of confusing involvement in WWII.
Most Americans dont know about the history behind this front of the war. I start talking history and its hard for me to stop.
Finland did more then just protect themselves. They also fought a war of aggression with designs on expanding their land mass. And as the winds of war shifted they ended up dancing with both Dictators.
BTW the Brewster Buffalo was an American airplane purchased by Finland. It was no more "Finnish" then the 109 was.
I'm not offended at all and I'm more than willing to discuss about my country's history in another thread.
No offence TOOL, but when you've checked the Internet and especially these threads for information regarding the Brewster and you end up with the conclusions below...
...I really don't have very high hopes that you'd able to understand anything I would tell you regarding Finnish history.
Hmm... I'll have to start thinking of a new sig!
Useful in that latewar, latest and greatest sort of way so you won't have to work at the game much?
Whatever, still a worthless aircraft,... did somone blackmail HT into modeling this thing? :devilIt isn't worthless, it is simply from a different time period than the LW arena planes. Besides, think of all the FSOs we could enjoy with it.
I've learned a lot in this thread, the most being from Rich and I was sorry to see him erase his information because you thought it belonged somewhere else. If it was not for him I would have never known exactly why the Brewster we'll be using had Swastikas painted all over it.
Is it true there was only 44 made or is this the version that only one was made?
Rich46yo's post
http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/index.php/topic,265934.msg3317328.html#msg3317328
http://www.virtualpilots.fi/hist/WW2History-CaptainWindsAirCombatTacticsLecture.html (http://www.virtualpilots.fi/hist/WW2History-CaptainWindsAirCombatTacticsLecture.html) A lecture prepared by Finnish ace Hans Wind which was given to new fighter pilots on their way to operational units. This is written from the PoV of a Brewster pilot.
The easiest one to shoot down of the enemy fighters is the Hurricane. It is totally helpless against us below 3,000 meters. It is slow and very clumsy and unmanoeuvrable. Whenever you meet a Hurricane, engage it in a turn-fight, where it is totally at our mercy.
Somehow I have the feeling it won't be that easy against our AH Hurricane... :noid
I have exactly the same feeling. Hispanos and internet lag among some other things will contribute to it greatly IMO.
I wasn't even thinking of the IIC. The I may be slower, but is far from being "clumsy and unmaneuverable"...
Rich, if you don't want to repost what you originally did, could you PM me? I've always been interested by Finland's largely unknown and kind of confusing involvement in WWII.
Sorry if I was over-long. No doubt the Finns have a gentler memory of the war.Now heres a real historian. :lol
The Finns in those Brewsters were defending themselves from a mass-murdering dictator with more resources and a higher ultimate body count than Hitler had. And they did it almost by themselves.
They don't teach you much about the matter of Finland vs. USSR in school, not many t.v. programs about it either. I think it is perhaps it makes all too clear the way the West repeatedly made deals with the devil and wussed out in regards to communist aggression against small nations in the 20th century.
I wasn't even thinking of the IIC. The I may be slower, but is far from being "clumsy and unmaneuverable"...I have, for many years now, considered the Hurricane to be substantially overmodeled. There is a quote floating around out there than puts the time for a Hurri to do a full 360 degree roll at 4.5 seconds. It does it in 3 seconds in AH.
Well if the brewster is on the way, how about I-16? Would be a nice match up I think!! :aok
Thanks :aokI am doubting the credibility of that site, as they added the F-86 in the ugly list.
Added:
Found a real photo of it btw.
This post has a lot of really strange looking planes. One of the He-111 and another of something that looks like it's straight out of Star Wars from Russia
Not sure why the 190's there.
http://www.google.com/url?sa=t&source=web&ct=res&cd=3&url=http%3A%2F%2Fforums.civfanatics.com%2Fshowthread.php%3Ft%3D290189%26page%3D3&ei=v_0mSqS4E5mUMeDE6YUF&usg=AFQjCNGMvUixi1rhDzZWh3PEFwk6N01KEA&sig2=OzvvH6PwnsnQlxzqT57Rug
I am doubting the credibility of that site, as they added the F-86 in the ugly list.Yea no crap.That AND the Dora. Looks like that site hasn't a clue. And the HE111 was on it too. :rolleyes:
Well more "yeas" then "Nays" so Ill post shortly, and from memory.
Finland was in a complicated position as Europe moved towards war. They despised Stalin and were rightfully fearful of the Soviet Union which always had hegemonic designs on the mineral rich, and strategic, Finland. The Soviets even supported the losing side in the Finnish civil war of 1918. So there was no love lost there. To Hitler and his cronies Finland was not only an important source of minerals but also, in their minds, a fellow Aryan people.
Remember Hitler made a deal with the Soviets when they both invaded Poland, "the non-aggression pact"? What most people dont know is that Hitler signed away on Finland and the Baltic states belonging to the Soviet sphere of interest. That was the price of Poland for the Germans. Latvia,Estonia,Lithuania, ceded themselves to Soviet control. The price demanded of the Finns was a big chunk of their territory. The Finns resisted. The Soviets attacked them. The winter war had started.
Into this morass came a small number of Brewster Buffalos. Now as far as I know they were stripped due to American export Laws and then reassembled with mostly Yank kit except for the sights. Back to the winter war. The Finns survived but had to give large chunks of its territory to the reds and had to resettle a whole lot of their citizens. It was at this time that they pursued close relations with Hitler. Britain and France had just been defeated so it wasn't like they could turn to anyone else. So again you see, "complicated".
But at the same time the Finns allowed Germany to secretly move troops thru their territory on their way to occupied Norway in 1940, sticking a knife in their Nordic neighbor in the back. They started drafting for German SS units even before Hitler attacked Russia. After the attack, even tho they declared neutrality, they allowed Luftwaffe units to use their bases which cause the Russians to go to war with Finland again. The Continuation War had started.
During which Finland was about as allied with Germany as you can get. Hitler visited Finland. Finnish boys wore SS uniforms. Britain and Canada actually declare war on Finland. Finland allows German units to use its land mass to stage attacks. America threatens a war declaration if the Finns cut off the Murmansk supply chain to the Soviets, "now western allies".The Germans armed and trained the Finnish Military. The Finns annexed Russian territory. They were firmly in the German camp until Stalingrad, after which as you can imagine, they started having 2nd thoughts. From then on up to about the end of '44 the Finns played both sides. Accepting arms from Hitler while secretly negotiating peace with Stalin. Even tho they had promised Hitler they wouldn't.
Eventually in The Lapland war the Finns turned and attacked the Germans forcing them out of their territory into Norway. This was after making a separate, secret deal with Stalin. The beginning of this war was phony however, both the Finns and Germans only pretended they were attacking, "another secret deal". At least until Stalin found out and the shooting began for real, each side even threatening to kill each others POWs. Anyway the Nazi/Finnish love affair was over. Yes, the Finns fought both for, and against, each side during this war.
So on the one hand there is a small country desperately trying to find a way to survive. On the other hand there was a opportunistic nation playing each side for its own benefit. In their defense their choices were few, tho they certainly were allies of Germany. One thing they were not were allies of the west. While they bravely protected their Jews they also allowed the German to use American and Brit POWs to build roads and track in northern Finland where many perished due to the cold and ill treatment.
Now heres a real historian. :lol
There were only a small number of Brewsters delivered to Finland, like 40 or 50 right? No doubt the Finns flew them bravely, "having your country invaded will do that", but the condition of the Soviet air force on that front, at the time, was simply atrocious. 1/2 was in the gulag and the other half was afraid of going there. The Germans destroyed almost their entire air force in the opening days of Barbarossa.
Still, and all things considered, both the airplane and the Finnish Pilots shined when their country desperately needed them. Of that there is no question.
I'd appreciate it if you wouldn't lump me in with 75% of the tools who populate the MA.
Thanks.
Into this morass [Winter War] came a small number of Brewster Buffalos.
But at the same time the Finns allowed Germany to secretly move troops thru their territory on their way to occupied Norway in 1940, sticking a knife in their Nordic neighbor in the back. They started drafting for German SS units even before Hitler attacked Russia. After the attack, even tho they declared neutrality, they allowed Luftwaffe units to use their bases which cause the Russians to go to war with Finland again. The Continuation War had started.It was not a secret that Finns allowed German soldiers' "holiday transports" From Northern Norway to Germany and back through Finland. Norway was already fully occupied at that time, thus I see no knifing. Those transports were used quite a lot and thus Germany also secured their presense in Finland. When Barbarossa began, Germans formed a front in lapland, the Northern part of Finland.
The Finns annexed Russian territory. They were firmly in the German camp until Stalingrad, after which as you can imagine, they started having 2nd thoughts. From then on up to about the end of '44 the Finns played both sides. Accepting arms from Hitler while secretly negotiating peace with Stalin. Even tho they had promised Hitler they wouldn't.
Eventually in The Lapland war the Finns turned and attacked the Germans forcing them out of their territory into Norway. This was after making a separate, secret deal with Stalin.
Annexed... or occupied?
Finland and maybe also Estonia might be the only countries not ashamed of their SS-men.
Is this really true? I mean...really?
- oldman
Is this really true? I mean...really?
- oldman
Is this really true? I mean...really?
In fact, Rich had a poor choice of words. At the end of the war (WWII), Finland actually lost some of his territory (that is, the ones it had before the Winter War) to the Soviet Union.
The first Brewsters began to arrive in Finland just before the Winter War ended. They did not arrive to the combat units in time for any action.
IIRC, the declaration of war by the Western Allies on Finland was more just for show and to make Stalin happy than anything else,Well thts one way to look at it. I know America and every other nation on eath declares war "just for show" :huh Another way to look at it is "the British bombed Finland cause they actually felt they were at war with Finland.
I THINK this is part of what actually drove the Finns into the alliance with Nazi Germany in the first place: They were abandoned by the West.Another way to look at that is that the British and French were either defeated or on the verge of being defeated and simply couldn't offer any help. But truly in order to Understand Finland in WW2 you have to look past "image" and "spin" and look at "actions". Unless your a revisionist that is.
It was not a secret that Finns allowed German soldiers' "holiday transports" From Northern Norway to Germany and back through Finland. Norway was already fully occupied at that time, thus I see no knifing.
Finnish SS-men were trained in Germany in 1941 and they fought at eastern front, but their training had not ended yet when Barbarossa began. Since Finland was again at war, some officers were called back home from SS battallion. Among those was a young finnish leutenant, Lauri Törni, later known as Larry Thorne (many of you may have seen the movie Green Berets, where John Wayne plays Thorne's part)
The Finnish SS-men fought in Ukraine and in Caucasus. They returned home in 1943. They would have wanted to continue fighting together at Finnish front, but were instead spread out to existing units. Finland and maybe also Estonia might be the only countries not ashamed of their SS-men.No doubt. Many in Japan and Germany aren't "ashamed" of their WW-ll soldiers. They did however eventually swear a personal oath to Adolf Hitler, wear the runes of an organization that committed monstrous crimes, and fight for a Dictator who started a war that took 50,000,000 lives. At best their active participation freed up other SS units to commit war crimes. All with the support of their own Govt. in Helsinki.
inland had declared neutrality all the time, not only after Barbarossa began. However it had also mobilized the army into its borders to defensive position, which was quite natural in that situation. Finland joined the attack against Soviets some weeks after Barbarossa began and Soviets had "techically started the war" against Finland a second time with its air strikes. Still there is no denying that Finland was planning to get back what was lost in Winter War.. and some more, if Germans were to be victorious. It was pretty much chosing between two evils when one cannot be left in peace.
That agreement was made by Finnish president (cleverly) in his own name, instead of the government.More spin. More image. More posturing. More B.S.
Again, no secret deal. When armstice with Soviets began, Germans were told that Finns will have to evict them.
Naturally Germans began to withdraw to Norway while Finns followed a day or so behind. At first here was no desire to fight the old brothers in arms who had helped to defend Finland against Soviets. Of cource there was bitterness among Germans and Finns were also forced to show some action to Soviets. Thus it became more real fighting.
They had negotiated in Rovaniemi and secretly agreed that the advance of the Finnish troops would be timed to match with the Germans’ withdrawal schedule. On September 19 the 6th Division was ordered to start moving.http://www.rajajoki.com/lapland.htm
Yes. Finns served in SS-Wiking, which was part of Waffen-SS, NOT part of Allgemeine-SS.
Wiking-division was elite fighting organisation. So why shame soldiers, whom fought hard and were part of elite?
Good example of the fact that the "commonly accepted" history writing is basically nothing but the victors view on how things went down.Good example of a guy who cant refute, or even comment on, that "commonly accepted history writing". :)
Well more "yeas" then "Nays" so Ill post shortly, and from memory.
Finland was in a complicated position as Europe moved towards war. They despised Stalin and were rightfully fearful of the Soviet Union which always had hegemonic designs on the mineral rich, and strategic, Finland. The Soviets even supported the losing side in the Finnish civil war of 1918. So there was no love lost there. To Hitler and his cronies Finland was not only an important source of minerals but also, in their minds, a fellow Aryan people.
Remember Hitler made a deal with the Soviets when they both invaded Poland, "the non-aggression pact"? What most people dont know is that Hitler signed away on Finland and the Baltic states belonging to the Soviet sphere of interest. That was the price of Poland for the Germans. Latvia,Estonia,Lithuania, ceded themselves to Soviet control. The price demanded of the Finns was a big chunk of their territory. The Finns resisted. The Soviets attacked them. The winter war had started.
Into this morass came a small number of Brewster Buffalos. Now as far as I know they were stripped due to American export Laws and then reassembled with mostly Yank kit except for the sights. Back to the winter war. The Finns survived but had to give large chunks of its territory to the reds and had to resettle a whole lot of their citizens. It was at this time that they pursued close relations with Hitler. Britain and France had just been defeated so it wasn't like they could turn to anyone else. So again you see, "complicated".
But at the same time the Finns allowed Germany to secretly move troops thru their territory on their way to occupied Norway in 1940, sticking a knife in their Nordic neighbor in the back. They started drafting for German SS units even before Hitler attacked Russia. After the attack, even tho they declared neutrality, they allowed Luftwaffe units to use their bases which cause the Russians to go to war with Finland again. The Continuation War had started.
During which Finland was about as allied with Germany as you can get. Hitler visited Finland. Finnish boys wore SS uniforms. Britain and Canada actually declare war on Finland. Finland allows German units to use its land mass to stage attacks. America threatens a war declaration if the Finns cut off the Murmansk supply chain to the Soviets, "now western allies".The Germans armed and trained the Finnish Military. The Finns annexed Russian territory. They were firmly in the German camp until Stalingrad, after which as you can imagine, they started having 2nd thoughts. From then on up to about the end of '44 the Finns played both sides. Accepting arms from Hitler while secretly negotiating peace with Stalin. Even tho they had promised Hitler they wouldn't.
Eventually in The Lapland war the Finns turned and attacked the Germans forcing them out of their territory into Norway. This was after making a separate, secret deal with Stalin. The beginning of this war was phony however, both the Finns and Germans only pretended they were attacking, "another secret deal". At least until Stalin found out and the shooting began for real, each side even threatening to kill each others POWs. Anyway the Nazi/Finnish love affair was over. Yes, the Finns fought both for, and against, each side during this war.
So on the one hand there is a small country desperately trying to find a way to survive. On the other hand there was a opportunistic nation playing each side for its own benefit. In their defense their choices were few, tho they certainly were allies of Germany. One thing they were not were allies of the west. While they bravely protected their Jews they also allowed the German to use American and Brit POWs to build roads and track in northern Finland where many perished due to the cold and ill treatment.
Now heres a real historian. :lol
There were only a small number of Brewsters delivered to Finland, like 40 or 50 right? No doubt the Finns flew them bravely, "having your country invaded will do that", but the condition of the Soviet air force on that front, at the time, was simply atrocious. 1/2 was in the gulag and the other half was afraid of going there. The Germans destroyed almost their entire air force in the opening days of Barbarossa.
Still, and all things considered, both the airplane and the Finnish Pilots shined when their country desperately needed them. Of that there is no question.
Which means what Blauk? Someone paid an American actor enough money to portray a Finn?Just a curiosity... or something to point out that even the US army has a deceased hero with a "SS background". The movie is not about an ex-finnish soldier, but about an american one ;)
They did however eventually swear a personal oath to Adolf Hitler, wear the runes of an organization that committed monstrous crimes, and fight for a Dictator who started a war that took 50,000,000 lives. At best their active participation freed up other SS units to commit war crimes.You can try to twist the SS issue as much as you want to. I could argue how A-bomb was a war crime and how evry US pilot helped in dopping it.... Like you said it is all about "spin" :p
Really? You dont think the Finns couldn't just tell Hitler, as Spain and Sweden did, they just didn't want to participate? BTW the Soviets didn't "technically start" the war of continuation. They allowed German combat units to launch attacks on Russia from their soil.They could have, just like Poland did. Sweden and Spain were in quite different situation due to their location. Soviets were planning to attack Finland again already later in 1940, but Hitler's view had changed after the Winter War and he told Soviets he would not approve. That was partly because of the "holiday transports".
More spin. More image. More posturing. More B.S.Obviously you have not read about Ryti-Ribbentrop agreement and the situation it was signed in. Where is the BS?
So you think it was a "wide open" deal? They colluded in secret to make Stalin think the Finns were actually kicking the Germans out.....I meant that there was no secret deal between Finns and Stalin, like you claimed. Germans knew immediately that they would have to leave.
Good example of a guy who cant refute, or even comment on, that "commonly accepted history writing". :)
Some of these so-called historical comments of the Finns being "quasi-allies" fighting the same evil as we was beginning to irk me. As was the misconception that the Buffalo was a "Finnish bone", no doubt believed by my friend from Lappeenranta who decided he was "Buffalo thread commander". If anything it can be considered a bone thrown to the British commonwealth, who operated far more Brewsters then the Finns did.
fighting the same evil as we was
Is this really true? I mean...really?
- oldman
BlauK & Kotari win
Let's have a tart :)
(http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/6/6b/Runebergintorttu.jpg/800px-Runebergintorttu.jpg)
Rich,America wasnt a super power in WW-ll. I have no "agenda" but nice try. BTW our Revolutionary War is a good study of what Americans do when occupied by a hostile super power.
I dont know what´s your agenda there, but those "facts" you state, are nice example of how much different viewpoint can be from safety of living in a super power, compared to the life of a really small country next to a superpower.
I really am not going to argue with you about those "facts" because alot of those are matters of interpretion (Or thickness of the USA glasses).I know you arent going to argue anything. Nor will you probably participate in any meaningful way. My guess is you will spin, pose, and maybe lay a little revision on us.
The bottom line is, there was a plan to cut Finland in half in one week and march in to Helsinki in a couple days enjoying people´s thanks for saving us from evil capitalists in a parade.The bottom line is there were many countries who were actually cut in half, were actually occupied, and actually never submitted to Hitler nor actively participated in his campaign as Finland did.
No one answered to our calls for help, the western super powers ignored because they didn´t want to piss of Stalin.The "western powers" were either defeated or on the verge of defeat. Finland was at peace when Barbarossa broke out. By allowing German troops to use their soil, by allowing her sons to wear Nazi uniforms, Finland participated in Hitlers war of aggression far more then any need to protect herslf. What part if this cant you understand? Finland was an active participant in Hitlers war of aggression. Both her Govt. and her sons were.
So taking on ANY source of materials to keep the fight going for our indepence was more than welcomed.The thing is tho you didnt. Finland was an active participant in wars of agression. You allowed German combat troops to stage attacks from your soil. You allowed them to transit on the way to Norway where they conducted a brutal oppression. Finland allowed her sons to not only wear the SS runes but to take a personal oath of loyalty to Hitler. "Course later they had a change of heart". :)
After a few years struggle, thousands of lives lost and countless amounts of resources, we still have a country, our culture and our language.At any cost right? No matter who they had to ally with or do business with? And always ready to take advantage of changing situations while trying to hide their actions behind false words and spin?
And we also lost HUGE slice of our country + paid tremendous amounts of money to Russia (Also as a note, we were the only country after WW2 to pay all the dues)What "dues"?
So, call me a revisionist, call me a Nazi if you will, i really don´t give a hoot... but do that to the heroes who saved us from getting overrun ticks me alot.Actually I didnt "call you" anything. Up till I saw your post I didnt even know you existed. Nice try for sympathy however. Especially since I never insulted any Finn to begin with.
Politics dont belong here, nor speculations of war history...
Is this really true? I mean...really?
- oldman
See Rule #4
This is a funny thread about... wait.. what was it about?
I recommend this book to anyone interested in WW2: http://www.amazon.com/Loyalty-My-Honor-Gordon-Williamson/dp/0760300127
This is a funny thread about... wait.. what was it about?
Would it not depend on what the particular FSO event portrays... At Eastern Front it is on Axis side, at PTO on Allied side, or mayby on both sides if Japanese are assumed to use captured Dutch planes. Similarly Hurricanes can be on both sides at Eastern Front or Ponies and Corsairs can fight against each other in South America ;)
Seems there were many more American Brewsters produced and serving near that time period and it is more known to be an American plane.It's not more known as an American plane. The Buffalo's service in American hands is as a footnote of failure. On the other hand, many of the highest scoring aces of all time flew the Brewster in Finnish service.
Question for me now is, why did HTC allow a plane that only had a production of 44 planes enter our plane set when so many other late war models having higher production and service values were not allowed over the last 8 years. Seems there were many more American Brewsters produced and serving near that time period and it is more known to be an American plane. Is it because it's a better model and might be able to compete a little easier or ...? (http://thesquad.forumotion.net/users/a9/77/24/39/smiles/786161.gif)
It was time.... This game has a dedicated population of Finns, many of whom have contributed greatly to what you get enjoy these days. Maps, skins, running Euro prime time events to name just a few things these gentlemen have done. These guys get together every year and their own Finn Aces High convention.
The Brewster was a very important fighter for Finland, and it is much loved in Finland, and not only by aviation and history enthusiasts. I've been involved with this game in one manner or another since January of 2001. Even before then, the Finns have been asking for the Brewster. Finally, they have it in the pipeline.
I for one, am thrilled to see this great bunch of guys get what they had hoped for these many years. When the update is released, I'm going to make a point to schedule flying during prime Euro time, so I can fly the Brewster and wing up with the Finns. The Buffalo will be great fun, and I will not hesitate to fly it in the late war MAs.
Brewster Buffalo – My sentimental choice to win. For nearly 12 years, Finns have asked me for this. Their passion for this plane is contagious. I’ve wanted to give them one ever since I read Double Fighter Knight about 10 years ago. That really gave me an appreciation of the FAF and the sturdiness of Finns in general. Of course, now that I’ve said it’s my sentimental favorite, if it happens to win it will provoke more conspiracy theories than Patrick Ewing going to the Knicks in the first NBA draft lottery.
The Brewster was despised by the RAF too. I read a bit from the pilot of one a couple of days ago, the undercarriage lights didn't work and the wheels kept dropping down, the only way he could tell they were up was by looking at the daylight between the gaps in the panels on the wings. It seemed there were numerous other Brewsters in the same flight who had the same trouble.
Rich, it's nice to see someone gets it. Please forward this to Masherbum.
Hi TOOL,
Were the links I posted helpful?
For this question I'll quote Widewing thought's on it. I think he summed it up pretty well.
Here's Pyro's view on the inclusion of Brewster during the plane vote two years ago:
Ditto, like I've said again and again, I knew before hand this was going to happen. That's why I thought "Finland in WWII" should be discussed elsewhere.
See Rule #4
How many rounds per gun does it carry?
Please lose the agenda and discuss the plane.I for one am tired of hearing the childish s*** on these threads.
I myself can't wait to fly it...and yes....in the MA also.
I'd just like to offer this up as a salute . . .
(http://www.smilespedia.com/wp-content/uploads/2008/01/27011.jpg)
I am entirely mystified as to why the Brewster Buffalo is getting so much hate from people. Of all the early-war US fighters, the Buffalo is arguably the best. It's got good manuverability (in fact, it was praised for this by Pappy Boyington,) equally on-par with, say, the P-40 or the like, but has one thing that neither the P-40, F4F, or P-39 had- a power/weight ratio and climb rate worth a hoot. Heck, I'd say it's fairly unique in that regard; an early-war American fighter that doesn't climb and accelerate like a lead brick? You don't say.
I wasn't paying attention to the forums when they introduced the P-39 (busy with school at that time, IIRC,) but I'd be equally as mystified if it received similarly harsh words. Considering that the P-40 has been favored by some good sticks who have shown what it can do, the P-39, which is arguably a hotter ship, should have been welcomed with at least some warmth. P-39 has similar manuverability and acceleration to the P-40, but is rather faster and has a cannon- why hate on that?
All in all, though, the addition of more varied and capable early-war fighters is going to make the Early and Mid-war arenas much more fun to fly in, because there will be more unique aircraft available in them. A relief of congestion in the Late War arena could be great fun- less furballs, more 1v1 or 2v2 opportunities. I look forward to it.
Jealousy and sour grapes of notting "Getting what they'd rather have."
Durned.. that is a "Runebergin torttu" :lol
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Runeberg%27s_tart
Named after this man:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Johan_Ludvig_Runeberg
Where on earth did you dig that up? :) :)
Im just glad to see another plane. I fly mainly LW and dont give a fiddlers frack if ALL the planes from here on out are allied. Jebus guys,get over it. Its a new plane.
Great to see a new plane added, although I would have rather seen something like the He-111 or the Me-410 added to the game, especially the He-111, I think that's probably been the most requested plane to be added to the game.
Explain that to Moray and Rich, they missed the boat.
A8TOOL,
Keep in mind they also destroyed 477 Soviet aircraft for very few losses. That kill total, and wartime service duration, certainly puts it past the C.205, Re.2005 and G.55 combined. I'd be a bit surprised if the N1K2-J had half that number of kills. Sure, it was only 44 aircraft, but they served a long time and fought many, many engagements. The 44 Brewsters made a difference whereas I can't say things like the 957 Spitfire XIVs, 700ish Tempest Vs, 200 F4U-1Cs or (unknown#) F4U-4s really changed things significantly.
I'm quite okay with starting a new thread, where you, Mr. Exalted One, can explain where Rich was wrong. I don't normally agree with the guy, and he has a harsh way of stating things, but he was mostly right. The question diverged through the thread as to whether Finland was Axis or Allied. You stated we were wrong to say Finland was both.
You've neither refuted any of his points, nor even discussed them once. Simply said he was an idiot.
Please feel free to explain why, other than putting your fingers in your ears and screaming "No it's not...No it's not...no it's not!!!" over and over, which is all you seem apparently capable of, other than personal insults.
Finland WAS both, although it was never signed by treatise into either. Its' behavior during the war was one of self preservation.
700ish Tempest Vs, 200 F4U-1Cs or (unknown#) F4U-4s really changed things significantly.
1.) This thread was about the Brewster.
2.) You two chose to go off on tangents that were headed off to begin with by a Finn, who PREDICTED people like you would.
3.) You still missed the boat. You have no clue about Finland, so stop pretending to be "an expert" like Rich.
4.) The only ones "insulted" in this thread are the Finns who play this game and rightfully so deserve a plane that served them well and beat the hell out of two countries. Considering it to be "an obsolete" craft.
Again, this thread was about the PLANE, not about "intangibles" that were explained in a "grey light" by Rich and then taken by some, as gospel.
Now, stop posting your childish rhetoric and move on if you cannot post about the PLANE, which again, is what this THREAD is about.
The F2A-1s diverted to Finland were given the company designation B-239. The naval equipment (tail hook, life raft, catapult harness) was removed, and the telescopic sight was replaced by a simple bead and sight arrangement. Armament consisted of one 0.30-in and one 0.50-in machine gun in the cowling, plus two 0.50-in machine guns in the wings. The engine was replaced by an export-approved 950 hp Wright R-1820-G5 radial. Maximum speed was 297 mph at 15,580 feet and service ceiling was 32,500 feet. Empty weight was 3900 pounds, and maximum weight was 5820 pounds.
The B-239s were transferred to Finland via Trollhattan, Sweden, where they were assembled by Norwegian Air Force mechanics. They were then ferried to Finland by both American and Finnish pilots. Only six examples had reached Finland by the time that the Russo-Finnish "Winter War" ended on March 3, 1940. During the uneasy peace that followed, Finnish personnel made a number of modifications to their Brewsters, including the installation of an armored headrest and seat back, plus a reflector gunsight in place of the original bead and ring.
A total of 44 B-239s reached Finland, and they were assigned the Finnish serial numbers BW-351 through BW-394. The B-239s were assigned to Lentolaivue 24 (LeLv 24), 32 being used on active duty and the rest held in reserve.
Finland went to war against Russia again on June 25, 1941, this time allied with Germany. During the first few months, the Brewsters were able to maintain air superiority over the northern front. The Finns found the Brewster to be very maneuverable at low level. B-239s encountered LaGG-3s, Yak-1s and Yak-7s, as well as Lend-Lease Hurricanes, P-40s and P-39s. The highest-scoring B-239 ace was Hans Wind, who got 39 of his 75 kills flying the B-239. The leading Finnish ace, Eino Juutilainen, scored 34 of his 94 kills while attached to LeLv 24 flying Brewsters.
As the war with Russia wore on, maintenance of the Finnish B-239s became an increasingly serious problem, since Finland was now allied with Germany and no longer had access to American spare parts. In an attempt to overcome these problems, at least six B-239s were fitted with captured Russian M-63 radials (these were license-built versions of the Wright Cyclone). The Finnish State Aircraft Factory also began the development of a homebuilt version of the B-239, this with a captured M-63 engine and plywood wings. This aircraft was known locally as the Humu. However, only one prototype was built.
Experiments were made with ski landing gear for operations from snow-covered fields. However, the landing gear could not be retracted when the skis were fitted, and this severely degraded performance. Consequently, skis were rarely used operationally.
In 1944, LeLv 24 traded in its surviving B-239s for Messerschmitt Bf 109G-2s. These B-239s were transferred to HLeLv 26. Kills continued to be scored, but by this time the Soviets had deployed large numbers of high-performance fighters and losses of B-239s began to mount. HLeLv 26 continued to operate its B-239s until the end, when an armistice was signed with the Soviets on September 4, 1944. Finland then switched sides and began to drive German forces out of Finnish territory. The Brewsters were flown against retreating German forces in Lapland, scoring several kills against Ju-87 Stukas.
After five years of combat and attrition, only eight Brewsters remained in the Finnish inventory. These surviving Finnish Brewsters were used in the training role until late 1948. During its combat career, the B-239 is credited with 496 kills, against 19 losses, for a victory ratio of 26 to 1. Finnish air force records credit 41 kills to a single B-239 before it was shot down. Is there any other fighter aircraft in history which has a record as good as this? After the war, the Humu prototype was restored and is on display in a museum in Finland. It is believed to be the sole surviving Buffalo in the world today.
Sources
1. Enzo Angelucci and Peter Bowers, The American Fighter, Orion, 1985.
2. Jim Maas, F2A Buffalo in Action, Squadron/Signal Publications, Inc., 1987.
3. Jim Mass, Fall From Grace: The Brewster Aeronautical Corporation, 1932-42, J. Amer. Av. Hist. Soc, p.118, Summer 1985.
4. William Green, Famous Fighters of the Second World War, Second Series, Doubleday, 1967.
5. Gordon Swanborough and Peter M. Bowers, United States Navy Aircraft Since 1911, Naval Institute Press, 1990.
6. Ray Wagner, American Combat Planes, Third Enlarged Edition, Doubleday, 1982.
Ok. Other than being used against a Russian air force predominated by EVEN more inferior aircraft( mostly biplanes or early 1930's era monoplanes) and flown by better Finnish pilots who knew the fate of their country rested on every man in uniform, and weren't relegated to inferior russian tactics...
The BREWSTER SUCKED.
It will never even be as popular as the F4F in any arena, other than by the Finns. I'm happy they got their ride, and I think this is a bone to them from HT, but the aircraft will be relegated to Special Events and the early war arenas (for the 20 people that go there) and be used in large numbers only for the first three weeks after the update.
Let me know if you are in the Late War Arenas after we get this. We'll test your theory, because I guarantee you, there are many more like me that would be MORE THAN HAPPY to shoot you down with ease.
But hey, thanks for showing the Community how selfish you are. :rock
Ok, so other than threatening to kill my cartoon plane, how have you refuted my point again? That being the -239 flew against even more inferior aircraft, ie Biplanes and even more inferior monoplanes?
Who's jumping off topic? Threatening me in the MA? Laughable. How old are you again? You can't even stick to the one argument you had.... and try to disprove mine. The Brewster Buffalo was over matched the day it rolled off the line. It was withdrawn from US service in less than 6 months combat, and only one engagement in US hands. This being a US reeling from loss after loss, and scrambling to procure every combat aircraft it possibly could. But, we shipped our remaining Buffalos to Finland...
Yeah, it was spectacular...great add.
Selfish? There's nothing in it for me sir. I'll play the game regardless. I'm happy for the Finns. My opinion that there were other, more substantial aircraft to add, notwithstanding.
Keep in mind what planes it was fighting against. Soviets in early war weren't even close, especially on this front. Most of their monoplanes were busy ramping up to squadron service.If you look, you'll find that the vast majority of Soviet fighters in 1941 were monoplanes. In fact, the Soviet Union moved to monoplanes with the I-16 far earlier than other nations did.
(http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/b/b0/Polikarpov_I-15.jpg)
(http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/2/2a/Bundesarchiv_Bild_169-0112%2C_Russland%2C_erbeutetes_Flugzeug_Po-2.jpg)
Let me know if you are in the Late War Arenas after we get this. We'll test your theory, because I guarantee you, there are many more like me that would be MORE THAN HAPPY to shoot you down with ease.
But hey, thanks for showing the Community how selfish you are. :rock
the He-111 is inferior to the Ju-88 we already have. It's purely a scenario plane, BoB to be precise. The 217 otoh is a very capable bomber for any arena.
This isn't a threat? This is your historical comparison of how the Brewster Buffalo fared in combat.... the two of us fighting in MA? Your argument is ridiculous, and you know you are wrong. But you are dogged in your determination at all costs, I'll give you that.
Buffalos in US hands were already phased out (1940-1941) in favor of the F4F, and only two marine squadrons retained it by the start of the war. When it was mauled and hopelessly outclassed in its' one and only engagement, it was removed from US service and sent to the Finns to fly against the Russians
The Buffalo faced even more inferior aircraft flown by Russian pilots given horrendously mediocre training. The russians barely trained any ACM at all for their pilots in the early war days. The Finns were better trained, with a better aircraft on that particular front. Once the Russians got half a clue, the -239 was withdrawn and replaced by German supplied 109G2's.
This is historical fact. Should you come up with any facts, feel free to share. Historical fact does not include you and I fighting in the MA.
I've never compared the Buffalo to ANY fighter. Are you blind? You can blame the "lack of training", etc (This is almost as funny as watching people cheapen USN Aces, Hartmann, etc). The ONLY things I discussed "historically", were properly informing HTC's customers of errors on Rich's and your behalf. Nothing else, nothing less.
I don't care about "inferiority". You're pissed off and you two want to grief about it, spewing the same diatribe. Did you two selfish people ever stop to think that another plane will join this later on in the year? I wonder what sniping the two of you will come up with, then.
You can cut and paste all you want from the internet, it doesn't change the fact that both of you tried writing prose on your own and failed miserably at it. The Finns of this Community ALSO noticed it and corrected you as well.
Did the United States not seize Finnish shipping assets?
Was the Brewster Buffalo withdrawn from US service in 1941 due to to deficiencies with the airframe and performance?No, to both.
Was the Buffalo almost completely withdraw from Finnish service and replaced by 109G2's by late 1942?
Was the Buffalo almost completely withdraw from Finnish service and replaced by 109G2's by late 1942?The German Luftwaffe was still newly equipping units with the G-2 through mid-1942...
If you look, you'll find that the vast majority of Soviet fighters in 1941 were monoplanes. In fact, the Soviet Union moved to monoplanes with the I-16 far earlier than other nations did.
You are free to apologize for your ignorance Moray. :)
Also, the point also needs to be made is that the Soviet air force units in the north did not suffer the same fate as the other Soviet air force units in the south that were virtually destroyed by the Luftwaffe. The Soviets were able to muster 700+ planes against the Finns.It bothers me a bit how many people believe the same 1930s BS about the Soviet and Japanese air forces despite the wealth of easily available material out there.
ack-ack
Brewster Buffalo – My sentimental choice to win. For nearly 12 years, Finns have asked me for this. Their passion for this plane is contagious. I’ve wanted to give them one ever since I read Double Fighter Knight about 10 years ago. That really gave me an appreciation of the FAF and the sturdiness of Finns in general. Of course, now that I’ve said it’s my sentimental favorite, if it happens to win it will provoke more conspiracy theories than Patrick Ewing going to the Knicks in the first NBA draft lottery.
Which is what I said from the beginning. It's just that a couple people felt like whining "because they didn't want the Brewster for selfish reasons."
<<S>> to our Finnish friends.
i cant believe some peeps are complaining about a new aircraft ...................But it isn't the A-26 or He111 so they feel disappointed. No consideration of all the guys who waited years for this one and who have contributed so much to the game.
Ok, so other than threatening to kill my cartoon plane, how have you refuted my point again? That being the -239 flew against even more inferior aircraft, ie Biplanes and even more inferior monoplanes?
The Winter War, although it lasted less than four months, illustrates some important points regarding air combat. One of the most important is that the numbers of aircraft on each side do not tell the whole story. In this conflict, the Soviets enjoyed an approximate 10-1 advantage in aircraft, but LOST aircraft in combat at roughly the same ratio. Still, they ultimately won the war. As we have seen in previous air wars, particularly in WW-I, quantity is typically much better correlated with the final outcome of a conflict than with aircraft exchange ratios. If the side with superior numbers is willing and able to make good on its losses, it can accomplish its goals in support of the overall effort and eventually achieve victory. The price, however, may be great.
In this conflict, the Soviets had the overwhelming advantage of numbers, and at least parity, if not a slight edge in quality with respect to fighter designs for most of the war. In addition, they had the advantage of holding both the strategic and tactical initiative in most cases. This usually allowed them to benefit from the element of surprise, concentration of numbers during a given engagement, and an initial altitude advantage. Another plus was the combat experience, at least at higher command levels, of the Russians in Spain and the Far East. This latter advantage was more than offset, however, by an inefficient command structure, low morale, and a general lack of experience among aircrews during much of the conflict.
The Finns, on the other hand, could also claim rough parity in fighter quality, a much higher overall level of aircrew training, high morale, and a more efficient and effective fighter employment doctrine. Also, as they typically were based much closer to the air action, the FAF could generate more combat sorties per aircraft than the Soviets, who were forced to waste much more time just transiting back and forth to the combat arena. This factor has a powerful force-multiplying effect on the "density" of aircraft that can be engaged in combat at any time with a given total number of aircraft. Operating mostly over friendly territory, the Finns were also less likely to lose downed aircrew; and those that survived returned to combat much wiser, with the effect of increasing the overall level of aircrew experience over time.
The general availability of radios to the FAF was another important factor. Finnish Fokkers were normally equipped with indigenous P-12-17/1 radios. Flight leaders usually had very low-power transmitters with a range of only about 3 mi for coordinating within their flights, while the wingmen generally had only receivers. A system of trained air observers had been established before the Winter War, using telephones to call the squadron headquarters, which were equipped with radios for notifying airborne fighters. The telephone system was not well developed, however, which often resulted in significant sighting delays. Even though the Finns did not have a very effective air-direction system during the Winter War, they were often able to receive engagement and sighting reports that were valuable in allowing them to concentrate their limited forces where they were most needed.
Although it is often dangerous to draw sweeping conclusions from limited air conflicts, the Winter War illustrates many critical principles that will be reinforced throughout the history of air combat.
But it isn't the A-26 or He111 so they feel disappointed. No consideration of all the guys who waited years for this one and who have contributed so much to the game.
It was withdrawn from US service in less than 6 months combat, and only one engagement in US hands. This being a US reeling from loss after loss, and scrambling to procure every combat aircraft it possibly could. But, we shipped our remaining Buffalos to Finland...For the sake of piling on . . .
And so 44 Brewsters were bought in 16th of December 1939, . . . First planes left New York harbour in 13th of January 1940, and the last planes arrived Sweden in 13th of March.
EDIT/ For the Finns....somehow it seems appropriate... http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xSuB6O-SikU (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xSuB6O-SikU) :) /EDIT
Ok. Other than being used against a Russian air force predominated by EVEN more inferior aircraft( mostly biplanes or early 1930's era monoplanes) and flown by better Finnish pilots who knew the fate of their country rested on every man in uniform, and weren't relegated to inferior russian tactics...
The BREWSTER SUCKED.
It will never even be as popular as the F4F in any arena, other than by the Finns...
But it isn't the A-26 or He111 so they feel disappointed. No consideration of all the guys who waited years for this one and who have contributed so much to the game.
I'm out of town and drunk. :)
I'm not gonna start defending my position (or the position of the FiAF) as my objectiveness is compromised by alcohol. I'll just say that it would do a lot of good for Moray to actually do some research and not settle with the first sources he can find...as he's very wrong on many accounts....which, I can explain when I sober up and actually start caring about this conversation again. :) Brewster shot down many Soviet "inline engined fighters" including La-5s and Yaks well after FiAF had the first Messerschmittis...
You are free to apologize for your ignorance Moray. :)
So other than a pile on, blah blah blah blah take to pm
Those planes are in the works they gonna add every plane we voted onYou're delusional. The vote meant nothing beyond the next aircraft added. Only the fact that the votes for the B-25 and P-39 were so remarkably close and that the P-39 was a widely useful type to add got the P-39 added next.
bet A-26 and yak3 He-111 are next probably see screens of the A-26 next
You're delusional. The vote meant nothing beyond the next aircraft added. Only the fact that the votes for the B-25 and P-39 were so remarkably close and that the P-39 was a widely useful type to add got the P-39 added next.
All additions after that are entirely, 100%, unencumbered by that vote and are completely HTC's choice.
again care to make a wager :DLet me put it this way, it would be ridiculous for HTC to further overload the American planeset when other planesets are in such need of attention.
So other than a pile on, which is normal, I've yet to see one of my points refuted with anything but opinions. Finnish War history or otherwise.
Please, all of you wishing to give me a history lesson, feel free to cite. Especially you, Wmaker, since obviously Karaya can't refute the points I put out.. I'm waiting for anything viable from you, in regards to my points. Correct what the history books say regarding Finnish History in the war.
I restate, I'm not attacking the history of your country, and there is no ill will, unlike how some have put it to you. If you would rather carry this conversation via PM's, than hijack this thread, that is fine. I look forward to you correcting what I've learned is wrong, with hard cited historical facts.
So other than a pile on, which is normal, I've yet to see one of my points refuted with anything but opinions.
...it [Brewster] was removed from US service and sent to the Finns to fly against the Russians.
Did the Finns not side with Germany in 1939 thru 1944?
Was the Buffalo almost completely withdraw from Finnish service and replaced by 109G2's by late 1942?
Cool stuff. Congrats to those who want to fly her. Any plane addition is a good one. :aok
Let me put it this way, it would be ridiculous for HTC to further overload the American planeset when other planesets are in such need of attention.
Cool stuff. Congrats to those who want to fly her. Any plane addition is a good one. :aokwell put steve. :aok
but its their game :)Well, I saw no statement from Pyro saying that they are adding the A-26 next. If you saw such, please post it.
I know we are sseing the Brewster in Finnish markings, so I expect the 239 model is just about air-worthy. My question is will we have the 339 model for the NEI available to us?Hmm . . . well, as precedent, we did get both the P-39D and P-39Q.