Aces High Bulletin Board
General Forums => Aces High General Discussion => Topic started by: Latrobe on April 12, 2008, 07:43:28 PM
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I know that there has always been BnZers, HO'er, Gangers, etc, but there was a time when I could log on and almost be certain of atleast 1-2 good fun fights. Recently, of course it has been happening even earlier than now, I have noticed that every fight has one side all at 10K+ and the other side below 5K being BnZ'd the entire time. Where has all the good fights gone? You can find a good fight sometimes (maybe once every month?!), but now it's just 109s, 190, La's, Spits, P51's, and the occassional TYPH/TEMP just BnZing then Running or 6 guys diving on 1 guy. It's gotten to the point where I reversed a Spitfire and watched him dive and run to the nearest ack, which was OUR ack! Heck, I've seen a Zeke BnZing from 25K a few days ago! Even the DA has a few "gang up on one guy" moments.
I did not intend for this to be a "whine", I just want to know if there is anyone left who will actually fight 1-on-1??
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There are still fun fights. And there are a lot of us still looking to make em happen :)
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Personally, I am sick of having to climb to 10k + just to be on an even playing field with most of the guys in here.
And most of the time its alot higher than that.
Don't really care about the historical accuracy of it.
It seems no matter how high you climb, they are always higher. And if they are not, they will run away until they are. Fun Fun Fun!
And yet all you hear from guys on these BBs is that they can never find a "good Fight"
Its kinda a catch 22. If you don,t get high,you die. So consequently everyone keeps flying higher and higher(regardess of their motives)
And guess what?
They are usually flying so high they don't see the opportunity for a good fight fly right underneath them at 5-6k.
Just Sayin,
Boner
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:cry :cry :cry
I never turn down a good 1vs1, but if you're at 5k ft looking for an air-to-air fight, you are way too low.
Here's my whine: what ever happened to patience and preparation being essential for the successful fighter pilot?
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I don't think so, but I think they're harder to find now. You just have to know where to look.
donkey
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:cry :cry :cry
I never turn down a good 1vs1, but if you're at 5k ft looking for an air-to-air fight, you are way too low.
Here's my whine: what ever happened to patience and preparation being essential for the successful fighter pilot?
5k is not to low in this game.
I have my days where I want to live out the historical aspect of things and use their tactics, and try to make it back home alive. I often do this through scenarios or a snapshot.
But for the most part, I want have fun in just finding a low fight, around or below 5k, and mixing it up without caring if I die or not. It goes from me wanting to RTB somewhat successfully, to wanting to get as many as possible before they get me.
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I find a few good fights, but end up getting owned...
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...without caring if I die or not.
See, (IMO) it's not possible to have a decent fight with someone who doesn't care whether they win or lose. Can you imagine playing ANY game with someone who just doesn't care? How boring and pointless...
MtnMan
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10 mins ago, to be exact, I was fling in a spixteen trying to defend a base under attack. Every single one of the fighters that came in were at least 15K. as the fight went on and everyone stated TnB we all started gangbangin' every single one of those high fighters. There were absoultly no checks, and they were all on one fighter, even though there pleanty to go around. I get in a 1v1 with a 109F and it turns out to be a good fight, then 10 of my people came in and killed him even after I told them that I had him. Then one picker comes in and picks me, again no checks. I went to another feild after that.
I move to this other feild and the same dam thing is happening: pickers, gangers and no checks. That was when I just logged.
I now go into the DA more than often for 1v1 because I can never get one of those in the MA anymore. I am beggining to no longer like the MA just for that reason Pickers, gangers and no checks.
Don't get me wrong I love to pick, but not every plane that I up, sometimes I love to get into a nice furball. (that I never see anymore)
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See, (IMO) it's not possible to have a decent fight with someone who doesn't care whether they win or lose. Can you imagine playing ANY game with someone who just doesn't care? How boring and pointless...
MtnMan
You miss the point. No one is really dying. He's saying he'd rather get in and mix it up than not fight even if the odds are stacked against him.
I totally understand that and you'll generally find me 5K or lower looking for the fight. Chances are the other guy will be above me, but thats part of the challenge. What you care about is the fight itself.
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I can usually always find a good fight in the DA, not so much in the MA now a days though.
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i nvr get any good 1v1 dogfights anymore... cause 99.9% of the time i get cherry picked while fightin the person, they call for help, or they run away,get alt, dives,attacks, and repeats..
-BigBOBCH
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I had an awesome fight with a Yak lastnight. I saw a huge Bish dar bar coming in over a Bish field we were taking... So I assumed it would be a fighter sweep. The dar bar also took ages to get cross the sector line, so I assumed that the sweep would be high. I was right and a pack of 10+ fighters came in at 20k. Luckily I had guessed this and climbed up to just below co-alt in a 152. I kept my distance for a bit, avoided a few HOs and kept climbing.
This fight went up to 28k! It was 4 v 1 on me, so it was a sprial climbing, slashing sort of fight. By the time I got up that high the P51s couldn't keep up and I thought the Yak would have serious problems above 20K... let a lone 30k... It kept with me and the fight (which was now 1 v 1) went right down to the wire coming down to 20k and going back up to 25k.
I couldn't believe the Yak could keep up like that.. I was WEPing the whole time but it still stayed closely with me.
In the end we'd been fighting for what felt like at least 15 minutes and he still hadn't run out of fuel... I was running low in a 152!
He made a break for the deck (he had be nearly dry on fuel, surely) and dove at 500+ Mph on a Rook pack of low fighters. He got careless and I got him.. I can't remember who it was.. It was some name I've never seen before... but it was an awesome fight.
Not once during the fight did he dive away when he blew his angle, he kept climbing and fighting to take the advantage back. It was awesome.
<S> whoever that high Bish yak was.
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I could care less how high you are or what your flying, being at 20k will do you no good if I'm at 5k. I also could care less if you have the "better" plane. You cant kill me unless you get in guns range...and if you can shoot me I can usually figure out some way to shoot back. I dont even care if your the 1st guy in or the 2nd...
What I do care is that you want to fight and that your intentions are to "kill me". E fight, angles fight, even "B&Z" I dont care....try all 3 of em. However more and more what we have is a gaggle of folks who dont ever really engage...they pick, loiter and flock like pidgeons or form part of a giant impersonal nameless "mizzun" hoard or ever decreasing skill, civility and common courtesy. Sadly the relative level of "smack" is clearly becomeing the inverse of relative level of skill. I miss the shanes and Nath's of the world, love em or hate me but they fought what they found and didnt leave till they won or they died. The sad reality is that a name change is propably in order. I'd prefer "aces low"...but "putz's high" might be more realistic...
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What I do care is that you want to fight...
Probably one of the best quotes that anyone could find to -
QFT!
donkey
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You can fight up as well as down, it's just a little more challenging.
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I have started to enjoy open air fights. In the past couple nights I have had a couple great 190 bnz fights and the out come was me forcing the over shoot after 10 minute fight. I do consider myself a furballer multi con fighter. I try and play the game to have fun and if that is high or low atl so be it.
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Ya I think its harder now to find a single person to fight. Everyone flocks to the same base. Now I flank the routes of travel from an enemy base and let a guy see me, give chase, then fight alone. Even then its almost always a 2 on 1.
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You miss the point. No one is really dying. He's saying he'd rather get in and mix it up than not fight even if the odds are stacked against him.
No, he's not missing the point. You are begging the question. Mtnman said it's no fun to to play against people who don't care if they get shot down. His original complaint can still be carried out against your reply: we'd rather that you rtb, grab more altitude, egress etc., than put yourself in a hopeless situation. Putting yourself in a hopeless situation is boring for us.
P.S. Mtnman has shot me down many times, and always after I tried my hardest not to let him do it. :salute
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but now it's just 109s, 190, La's, Spits, P51's, and the occassional TYPH/TEMP just BnZing then Running or 6 guys diving on 1 guy.
This pretty much what i find during US prime time, off peak hours are better fights. Did have a Nit that went by Tom with a couple numbers, he pmed me and we had a good fight.
Besides that it was dive into the mess of 190's, 51's and spits.
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Sometimes you have to think your way around the arena mentality to get a good fight. The biggest darbars on the map will always attract the pickers. What I usually look for is fights that are about to happen.
A small darbar off our coast might be an enemy CV for instance. Take off early and you can get a few kills before it becomes a hoardfest for one side or the other.
Similarly if one of our CVs is nearing an enemy field I up heavy and take out the ordnance. Usually one or two guys will up to defend the base, given some E I can engage them while drawing the fight away from the base.
V bases under air attack are another favourite, you often get a steady trickle of jabos, low alt buffs and a few fighters coming in but nothing too organised.
Flying from Europe I find the same thing as Whiteman. The closer you get to US primetime, the worse the fights become. Maybe its the "winning is the only thing" attitude.
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10 k is low to me. :D I guess im a "astrocat"......yep I'll ho ya too. :rock
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Flying from Europe I find the same thing as Whiteman. The closer you get to US primetime, the worse the fights become. Maybe its the "winning is the only thing" attitude.
The reason for hordes is two-fold.
1. Miserable pilots like the herd. They feel safe in the herd. They get some vulch or gang kills and don't feel completely helpless. :rock
2. Winning the base establishes a certain level of pride.... I suppose that if you suck like a Hoover, you have lower standards. ;)
One redeeming factor: Pilots we train in ACM are seldom found in the hordes. That only reinforces the above.
Lately, I have enjoyed hunting down porkers or defending against hordes with an IL-2 or Wirbelwind. It's easy to get a lot of kills in these beasties while breaking up the mobs.
My regards,
Widewing
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No, he's not missing the point. You are begging the question. Mtnman said it's no fun to to play against people who don't care if they get shot down. His original complaint can still be carried out against your reply: we'd rather that you rtb, grab more altitude, egress etc., than put yourself in a hopeless situation. Putting yourself in a hopeless situation is boring for us.
P.S. Mtnman has shot me down many times, and always after I tried my hardest not to let him do it. :salute
I think what mensa was saying is that as long as he has a good/great fight with someone, it doesn't piss him off if he loses, because he had a good, well fought fight. I guess he didn't explain it that great in your guys' eyes.
I understand where mtnman is coming from when he says that he doesn't want to fight someone who doesn't care if they win or lose (becuase then there's no heart in the fight, they might resort to cheap tactics, etc), but I don't think that's what mensa had in mind when he typed that response out.
donkey
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Personally, I am sick of having to climb to 10k + just to be on an even playing field with most of the guys in here.
And most of the time its alot higher than that.
Don't really care about the historical accuracy of it.
It seems no matter how high you climb, they are always higher. And if they are not, they will run away until they are. Fun Fun Fun!
And yet all you hear from guys on these BBs is that they can never find a "good Fight"
Its kinda a catch 22. If you don,t get high,you die. So consequently everyone keeps flying higher and higher(regardess of their motives)
And guess what?
They are usually flying so high they don't see the opportunity for a good fight fly right underneath them at 5-6k.
Just Sayin,
Boner
very well stated :aok
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Dan and Donkey have it correct. When I go into a fight, hopeless situation or not, I fully intend to live and beat the others throughly :) But if I get shot down in the process, I don't mind at all, planes are free and I'll roll another.
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Can I intend to jump to the moon? :lol :huh :noid
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No, I wasn't picking on Mensa... I was making the point that in order to have a decent fight (IMO), both opponents need to have a strong desire to win, and do everything in their power to do so. They don't have to start out on equal footing necessarily, as long as they both give it thier best. Personally, I prefer fights taht don't start out as purely equal, as IMO they're more interesting, for many of the same reasons I find fights between differing plane types more interesting.
If AH consisted of all "equal" fights, I'd be bored and quit within days. If that's what you want, look in the DA. DA fights lack incentive (again IMO), so don't bring out a strong enough emotional desire to win. I find that having the different incentives in the MA brings that out more often. Want your name in lights when you land kills? Want a better score? Want to flaunt your kills in your opponents face when you land "his" kills? Want to perform well in front of your countrymen, squad, friends? Be "known" and "feared" by your "enemies". Whatever the incentive, I don't care, it makes people try harder. It makes them want to not get shot down, and that's what I want.
The DA doesn't offer that IMO. It offers a few things that will always appeal to a select few players, but isn't "enough", even for them. If it were they wouldn't be here complaining, they'd be shut away in the DA and we wouldn't even know thier names in the MA.
IMO, the DA is little more than "practice" for the real event. Not even that great of a practice area (IMO) compared to the TA. The fact is, the VAST majority of people who get shot down in a fight have no idea why, how, or how to fix thier problems. Watching a film won't do them much good, unless someone spells out what to look for in it. The TA is a better practice format, because they don't die, but get an audio "punishment" when they screw up enough to get hit. And since they can't be killed, I find people are more honestly helpful in there than in the DA, where the albeit small incentive to win is still enough to keep many pilots from being as helpful as they could be.
Personally, I prefer higher alt fights (12-14k) over low fights. That can be said whether I'm advantaged or disadvantaged, equal plane types or not, 1v1, 1v2 or 3, 2v2, many vs many, whatever. Fights on the deck bore me. I prefer to vastly greater options of a high fight. Large manuevers, small manuevers, fast, slow, and back to fast, staying high, going low, going back high, whatever. If I wanted to be on the deck I'd be driving internet Nascar. I find far more quality fights in the 12k area than I do on the deck. As a matter of fact, I have no difficulty finding fun, decent fights any time I log in. And having some height and speed allows me to sculpt my fights, avoid gangs, avoid getting picked, etc...
Will I pick people I see lower than me? Absolutely! If you're in that position you're a dollar bill on the convenience store floor. I may be headed to the "main event" (the beer in the rear cooler) but if I see a dollar bill on the floor I'll delay long enough to pick it up. Someone else's mistake = my gain. Why not? Picking the dollar up may not qualify as an earth-shattering victory, but how many of you would walk on by? What do they expect?? Should I drop to thier speed and alt, get in front of them for a "proper" merge, and make sure their buddies give them a check six??? Gimme a break. Fact is, most of the horde down there is in need of some serious training anyway, and the result of giving them an equal or advantaged fight wouldn't be any different than had I simply picked them.
Looking for "good", "decent" fights under 5k? Might I interest you in my sandbox? If you dig through it you may find a gem. You need to search where your probabilty of finding the object of your desires is highest. In my case, I live in farm country with lots of stray cats. Digging in my sandbox won't yield too many gems, but you find a lot of s^^t. I don't doubt some of you enjoy fighting on the deck, or don't have the desire/patience/whatever to climb. That's fine, it's your choice. But complaining about what you find down there is nuts. It sounds to me like a lot of you want quality, but refuse to put in any effort to locate it. And then complain because there aren't any gems in the sandbox...
Hello! McFly!?!??!
MtnMan
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Your desire to 'live' in a cartoon world, sounds an awful lot like what some of us see as flying 'safe'.
It's your dime so enjoy :)
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mtnman, i agree 100%. If i could write decent english, my post would be same as yours :D
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"Good fights" depend a lot on the moves you use. I'm just learning to have fun playing in the mud, and I'll tell you its had a huge impact on how I enter fight zones. By using lag roll reversals and defensive maneuvers it's possible to turn the alt monkey's advantage against them...that higher energy translates into larger turn radii, and if they give up the energy its suddenly an even fight.
I'm finding the key to getting these fights is to not wade into the center of the furball (not that there's anything wrong with that!). Instead, approach the lateral edge of a furball (ie not in direct line between bases) at low to medium alt. When you spot a possible combatant, try to look like an inviting target and "escape" just fast enough to drag the attacker further away from the main group. If necessary, climbing makes you look more vulnerable and lets him get closer; most conservative attackers won't give up all their E for a target more than 5K below them. Generally works pretty well for getting a fight going, though my steenkin gunnery usually means I don't make quick work even when I win. Fun anyway.
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My "fun" so to speak is fighting at 20K or over. Why you may ask. I've been playing MMOG combat sims for a good while. I like playing them for the virtual reality. That's why I love scenarios. But in the MA more and more fights are occurring not only at ground level but 15K and over. Those are the ones I love. That's where most fights occured during the European Air War during WWII. It's an entirely different fight.
Not much air for those wings to grab......thus E management and speed are needed more then flat turning and looping at lower altitudes. A lot of lag pursuit occurs and setting up occurs at further distances. Get to slow and you're going to lose alt and be below your enemies who will then pounce on what is left of you.
So whatever your preference it's what makes the game fun for you that counts.
Don't let anyone tell you how to play. Unless of course they are paying your subscription fee. Then think about playing their way.
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Your desire to 'live' in a cartoon world, sounds an awful lot like what some of us see as flying 'safe'.
It's your dime so enjoy :)
Lol, you don't desire to win/succeed/live? Then why complain when you don't get what you don't desire? If you want to be ganged or picked , the best way I can think of to do that is to mosey in at 3-5k. I won't call that foolish, as it's your buck to spend any way you want, but I would consider it foolish if you then complained about getting ganged or picked. No desire to succeed? Why play at all? Go watch some TV...
What is it you guys want? You talk of flying "safe" like it's a defective method, but whine because you get shot down flying like you want to get shot down? It sounds like the low slow crowd wants to be seen as an elite brand of cartoon pilots, but with arguments like that it ain't ever gonna happen, lol. You'll be seen as "slow" maybe, but never "elite", lol. Or maybe we're taking this too seriously? Maybe this isn't a real complaint, but more of a tongue in cheek, clown-like, jestful, "complaint" meant to draw attention and some chuckles? An attempt at humor?
Slam the "cartoon" all you want, this is a game. So is football, baseball, poker,pool, darts, whatever. Ask around, see how many football players don't care whether they win or lose. If they didn't care, they wouldn't play. Players who don't want to play drag the game down
Without the higher alt fights, the low fights would get boring, as would the high alt fights without the low, or the furballing without the toolshedders, or the toolshedding without the furballing, or the gv'ing without the associated air war, etc, etc, etc... All those facets together is what makes this game fun. Without any one of them it would be significantly less enjoyable.
If we didn't feel that way, we wouldn't be here. Or if we were, and really only wanted to see one facet of the game we'd all be hiding in various corners of the DA or TA.
Don't get me wrong, it doesn't bother me at all if you don't care. I'll simply pick you on my way to a decent fight. I won't lose any sleep over it, and won't devote any more effort to it than it deserves. But if you think I'm going to see this style of fighting in the MA as "elite" in any real sense, that won't happen until the whines stop.
The funny thing is that without the associated whines, I'd see it in a different light. I'd see it as game players making conscious decisions, knowing the likely outcome of those decisions, and living happily with the results they knew were very probable. Without the complaints, it looks honorable. Start up with the complaints, and it looks foolish.
MtnMan
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The obvious solution is to put 50K airstarts in the game.
Then we can all fly <cough> realistically <cough> without wasting so much time.
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Bah, we'd still waste the time, it would just be going downhill to the fight instead of uphill.
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to the original poster...because I don't want to waste/take the time to read all the replies. Welcome to life man! You have to adjust as things change. If you decide to have fun, you will. If you want to complain, you'll find something to complain about. It sucks to be ganged by 10 dweebs in dweeb rides, with a 10k alt adv. But just imagine the buzz you'll feel when you manage to kill 6 of em and make it home alive!
In 13 years between here and AW I always manage to find a new reason to keep logging on and having fun with my squaddies and opponents. I have my bad nights and I do get ticked off on occasion. More often than not I sit in my cockpit/desk chair, and laugh my arse off at what goes on in this wonderful, dynamic community that we are all a part of. I have taken a few sabaticals from the game over the last few years when I found myself not having the fun I shoulld be having...but I keep coming back. So, if you're not having fun, look inward and stop slinging blame and whines. It doesn't help you or the community.
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Lol, you don't desire to win/succeed/live? Then why complain when you don't get what you don't desire? If you want to be ganged or picked , the best way I can think of to do that is to mosey in at 3-5k. I won't call that foolish, as it's your buck to spend any way you want, but I would consider it foolish if you then complained about getting ganged or picked. No desire to succeed? Why play at all? Go watch some TV...
MtnMan
What I want is to have fun. Same as you :) If you note, I always say it's your dime. Fly the way you have fun.
How you define winning in here and how I do, are clearly two different things. I don't make a living here, I'm not fighting to protect a cause, or to protect my family. I gain no status by playing the game. I just do what I can to have fun.
With the time I get to fly I don't want to spend it climbing to high alt, drifting for a few sectors, hoping for someone to pass below me so I can 'kill' them. The challenge for me is to get into the fight and hopefully win every one of them. Going into a crowd makes this tough, but it's what's there so since i don't die, that's what I do.
I know where the mindset comes from for me too. It goes back to the wartime Spit XII drivers. Their tactics were to essentially dangle themselves below the 109s and tease them into coming down. They'd break into them and have at it.
I've been doing it that way since Airwarrior.
Again, it's your dime, you have fun your way :aok
Oh, and btw I didn't complain. My response to the original post was I'm still having fun and good fights can be found :)
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Um a few ago, the new thing is "alt monkies" and "thousand plane chasers."
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Bah, we'd still waste the time, it would just be going downhill to the fight instead of uphill.
We'd save the 20 minute climb time though. :rock
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I flew the MA yesterday afternoon, first time in there in about a month. Yes I am what most all of you would consider a NOOB! I'm not happy about that but, it is what it is. I did find it interesting that most, not all, but most I flew with were up 3-4 times in the same time frame I was in the same plane. Alot obviously seem not to care wether the die or not, go zooming in, do what damage they can, flying a straight line the whole time, just to have someone roll in on them and shoot them down. They really made no effort whatsoever to try and outrun or out manuver the plane on their 6.
I flew raids on 2 different airfields, in a spit8. I got a kill on the first one and then landed where I took off from. (low gas) Took off again for the same field and got into it with a 109 and then a yak got into the mix and hit me good enough to smoke. Made it most of the way back to my field but had to bail as the engine gave out (oil ). Then it was on to a new attack and went in from around 8k with another plane. we got into it with some spits and 109's, I found that a 109 was crossing about 1k under me so I rolled on him and got him. Then the sky was full of my team so I headed home due to gas again and landed.
Point is I found myself WANTING to live and return to base alive, to me it seems like the right thing to want to do, game or not. But there are plenty who could seem to care less about that thats where you lose the quality pilots and fighting you once had.
mtnman: I personally could not agree more with ya :salute
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Bah, we'd still waste the time, it would just be going downhill to the fight instead of uphill.
Just for giggles I checked our scores. We've flown about the same hours and have about the same kills. I have a lot more deaths. We have the same kills per hour as well.
90 percent of your kills are in an F4U4
90 percent of mine are in a P38G
We clearly have our fun in different ways :)
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j500s --
I think the real message is that you have to fly the way that you have fun. Nothing else matters. I know guys whose secret ambition is to fly an entire tour without dying, to be as serious about landing as pilots were in WW2. (The guy I'm thinking about isn't afraid to fight, not a runner at all. And no, he's not a squaddie.) Some of the most skilled ACM guys I've seen love nothing better than twisting and turning when surrounded by an impossible number of enemies, and will have a blast even if they eventually get shredded by an unskilled newb right off the runway. (Course, with some of those skilled guys they end up destroying the horde by themselves...I remember a film of a couple old time BKs on the deck getting jumped by 6-8 bad guys, killing them all and flying home giggling.)
Up till recently I flat out hated dying. Now I'm learning to have fun no matter how the sortie ends, and I'm pushing into "un-smart" situations just to try new things out. I've had more fun, and much less frustration, because no matter how good you are you're going to die in AH, probably every single night.
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Personally, I really enjoy the fights down on the deck. It's down low and slow that I think somebody who really knows how to get the most of his ride really shines.
Honestly, I don't have a problem with the guys who like coming in with altitude and using the legitimate BnZ tactics. I also am smart enough to realize that getting kills that way isn't really as easy as a lot of folks might have you believe.
My problem is with the group of alt monkeys who loiter above waiting for two pilots to engage so they can swoop down and pick one. They won't come down otherwise even though they have an E advantage.
Yesterday, I was in an area, down low and slow, five alt monkeys hovering overhead. None of them wanted to be the first to come down. They would circle overhead, as if they were waiting for my solo self to come u pto them! Well that wasn't going to happen. I'm still pretty noobish, but smart enough to know that I am better on the deck then at alt.
So they would circle and circle. Occaisionally one would come down a bit, as soon as I turned to merge with him, I could see the rest of them making there moves to pounce as soon as I engaged. So, I would manuever to deny any of them a good approach and they would all just return to their circling until another one of them would get up the nerve to come down, so the others could try and pick.
This went on for a good 10 minutes until I bingoed on fuel and just landed in the field.
The sad part is that if they had simply all come down together, one of them would have quite easily gotten me. Quite easily.
There is definitely a difference between those who want the enjoyment of the fight and those who are simply out to score.
Whatever floats your boat I guess
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No one is guaranteed anything. Some days...the fights will be awesome. On others...there might be a dearth of fun. In the end, it really is all up to you. If you aren't having fun doing what you are doing....DO SOMETHING ELSE!! :)
On another note...
There is a great difference between not caring about winning or losing and lacking the desire to win. I always fight to win. However, that doesn't negate the fun I have even when I lose a good fight. :rock
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There is a great difference between not caring about winning or losing and lacking the desire to win. I always fight to win. However, that doesn't negate the fun I have even when I lose a good fight. :rock
Quoted for truth
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I dont no? Been playin for 2 years and seems the same 2 me..Always been high pikers and always been furballers..Never had lots of good fights in MA...Had a few good 1 on 1s but usually if u saddle up 4 to long its boooooom!!!!Majority fly with squads so u no a member is not going 2 let u kill his buddy.Well actually ive had some really great fights latley in the MA...Just like 2 years ago when I started, but the diff is that im way better now so i generally win...Thats even better :D
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There is a great difference between not caring about winning or losing and lacking the desire to win. I always fight to win. However, that doesn't negate the fun I have even when I lose a good fight. :rock
QFT again.
donkey
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...I was making the point that in order to have a decent fight (IMO), both opponents need to have a strong desire to win, and do everything in their power to do so. They don't have to start out on equal footing necessarily, as long as they both give it thier best. Personally, I prefer fights taht don't start out as purely equal, as IMO they're more interesting, for many of the same reasons I find fights between differing plane types more interesting...
And I agree, it's just that when I lose I don't mind. Just because I'm not all up in arms about dying in a game doesn't mean I don't put the most into the fight. If you're implying that I need to take this game more seriously in order to be a better "pilot", then I would have to disagree.
My incentive to win is just for my own personal enjoyment. I get a thrill out of killing the other guy, I also like becoming a better 38 stick. Neither of these require me to go about my AH day without dying, so I don't. And when I do, I don't get upset, just roll another plane.
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I agree with you there Mensa, it sounds like we have the same desire to win, for basically the same reasons. But "desiring to win, but not being devastated when we lose" isn't the same as "I don't care whether I win or lose", which was my original point.
I truly had no intention of riling you, I just saw the words you used to describe your feelings and borrowed them as an example of a common argument. From that post I could have gathered that you didn't care, now it's apparent that you do care, you're just adult enough to handle defeat when it occurs. From that I'd expect you'd be a great opponent and / or teammate.
I often hear complaints from the "I don't care whether I win or lose" crowd when they lose (which would seem to be a contradiction). Generally it has something to do with the fact that they got sent back to the tower in a way that wasn't pleasing to them. If they really didn't care I wouldn't expect their complaints on the BBS or chnl 200 to be so common.
And I really don't have any problems with them doing / flying however they want. I simply don't care what they do. The constant stream of complaints from folks that fly into swarms of enemies, and then complain "I got ganged!" or who get low and slow under enemy planes and complain "I got picked!" gets awful old.
I even heard complaints directed at me last night because I allowed a well-known and accomplished pilot to have a 1v1 with an enemy plane. Heaven forbid! Myself and two squadies were climbing out. Saber was watching TV, I was reading a book, and I'm not sure what Crude was doing. All on auto-climb, at about 8k. Suddenly Saber swore, and exploded (he was higher than Crude and I). The enemy Typhoon dove through and shot Crude as I rolled to the side, taking Crude's vertical stabilizer off and sending him into the ground. I recovered and prepared to fight the Typhoon, only to see this well-known countryman already on his six, about 1.5 out. Saber says " are you killing the "#@^%$" typhoon??" I said "Nah, so and so's on him, and I don't want to gang the Typhoon". I knew who the typhy probably was and out of respect for both pilots, I decided to stay out of it. Well, the "friendly" screwed up, overshot, and got shot down. I gave the typhy about 15 seconds to look around and prepare for me, and then went in from about 5k out. Immediately on chnl 200 as well as on country channel comes a spew of verbal diarhea from my countryman about the running chicken-chit hogs, and comments to the typhy pilot regarding the chicken-chit hog pilots (2 of 3 were shot down already...) who left him high and dry.
How do you win? Had I pressed an attack on the typhoon, I'd have been accused of ganging or ruining a good 1v1 (and I would have agreed). By allowing a "fair" fight, I was a chicken abandoning a countryman (who started in an angles-advantaged state). Had I not dove in on my opponent after he killed the friendly, I'd have been a chicken, running from a lower enemy. By killing him I was a "picker". (To his credit he didn't utter a complaint, although many would have).
Danged if you do, danged if you don't! Anybody else sick of the whining?
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Just for giggles I checked our scores. We've flown about the same hours and have about the same kills. I have a lot more deaths. We have the same kills per hour as well.
90 percent of your kills are in an F4U4
90 percent of mine are in a P38G
We clearly have our fun in different ways :)
Yup, this month I sure have a lot of F4U-4 kills. My "normal" ride is the F4U-1A or -1D, but this month I was playing the "lets see how many kills I can get before I lose a plane" game, and have been flying against massive swarms with no wingmen and very few friendlies apart from last night. The last 3 nights I've played have been fights all by myself or with very few friendlies against full dar-bars of enemy planes. I chose the -4 for obvious reasons, considering the majority of the time it was "many on 1" scenarios. Perk-plane or not, those were some very exciting fights. I think you'd be surprised how similar our fights are, apart from you being in the 38 and me in the hog. I haven't had many hops in the last few years that didn't see me low, slow, and covered with bad guys at some point. I'm not verbal when I lose, but that doesn't mean I don't get down and dirty.
Having flown beside you in several furballs, I dont think "We clearly have our fun in different ways :)" Our idea of fun looks to be very similar.
My complaint isn't against the flight style / choices that people make, it's against the whining resulting from those choices.
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And maybe it's just an advertising error. It seems the complaints are made in an effort to get more people to get low and slow and not be afraid of losing. The problem is that with all the whining it appears that those that get low and slow aren't having any fun (why would they whine if they were having fun??).
That's hardly a way to convince others that it's the best way to have a good time...
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I think this is where I post film of WMLute losing the last fight in a KOTH round, "whining" about the fight being boring because he lost all his E and is getting BNZ'd into the sea for as long as possible (on purpose, admitedly).
Would that be obvious enough an example mtnman?
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Wasnt fun when you wacked my arse in the da m00t ya fargin Icehole you. :furious
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" :aok" :lol
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I think this is where I post film of WMLute losing the last fight in a KOTH round, "whining" about the fight being boring because he lost all his E and is getting BNZ'd into the sea for as long as possible (on purpose, admitedly).
Would that be obvious enough an example mtnman?
Hehe! A form of torture isn't it? Make him pay for his mistake for a prolonged period instead of getting it over quickly! Hehe, I love it. I've enjoyed my fights with WMLute (even the ones he's won), but I still think that's a funny story!
I'm not going to give out the names involved in my incident. Believe it or not I still respect those involved and have no desire to drag them down over something that was said in the heat of the moment. The typhy pilot never said a bad word to me all night, and we actually had friendly comments for each other on 200 so it's not like he was to blame at all. Sadly, this is not my first time being griped at for allowing a skilled pilot to finish a fight 1v1 when I thought it looked "fair". My general policy in a situation like that is to loiter and "supervise", only jumping in when another opponent tries to jump in and make it a 2v1 or pick my countryman. In my effort to allow pilots to have a 1v1 apparently I can irk some folks. It's not uncommon to be called "timid" by the opposing pilot, since he can't see that I'm actually giving him an opportunity to finish his fight 1v1 and prepare for me. That's OK, but I'm shocked when I hear it from my own teammates.
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It's not about dragging people down mtnman, it's about the quality of "air combat" in our fav game. It does the game no good to have so many (the vast majority, I think) players be so timid and know so little about SA, ACM, etc. In the most extreme cases you've got players bailing on sight, gaming the game to the extreme... That's not what air combat is about!
The Training Corps can only process and influence so many players, but the basics it teaches are nonetheless a vital factor (if not the one and effectively only, I think) in the quality of dogfighting in AH.
I appreciate the comedy in holding Lute over the fire longer than required to get the kill, but it's really not fun. As funny as it is and as much as I love comedy myself, it's an example of very un-fun gameplay - it's a nearly perfect illustration of spoiling an opportunity for an all out suspense-full fight into a very boring time in front of your computer monitor. It's not that "BnZ" should be forbidden, it's that players ought to have a sense of "fighting" balanced with that innate sense of fun. This is a game, not war.
It's not uncommon to be called "timid" by the opposing pilot, since he can't see that I'm actually giving him an opportunity to finish his fight 1v1 and prepare for me.
This is the fair way to do it. That's the way it ought to be done.
As for teammates, if you've switched countries more times than you could keep count like a lot of us have, you know that there's more mutual understanding between specific types of players than inside some arbitrary chess piece.
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Good fights aren't gone!
Far from a skilled 1v1 man, I still love the adrenaline and sport of an even fight. Tonite north of a horde was climbing in a K4, and ran into a G2. Had a very nice combat till I went over the edge, lost angles in recovering, and had to run with a lost airelon. Went on 200 with a <S> for the unknown pilot, "great fun -- lost airelon, had to go" -- and found out it was daDonkey.
Next thing I know we're meeting up between 2 abandoned bases for a series of dogfights. They were tightly fought, and I think the only time I got a "kill" was when he cut it too close and collided with me. But I had fun, hopefully learning a bit along the way.
As far as I can see, good fights are out there...
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Good fights aren't gone!
Far from a skilled 1v1 man, I still love the adrenaline and sport of an even fight. Tonite north of a horde was climbing in a K4, and ran into a P-38. Had a very nice combat till I went over the edge, lost angles in recovering, and had to run with a lost airelon. Went on 200 with a <S> for the unknown pilot, "great fun -- lost airelon, had to go" -- and found out it was daDonkey.
Next thing I know we're meeting up between 2 abandoned bases for a series of dogfights. They were tightly fought, and I think the only time I got a "kill" was when he cut it too close and collided with me. But I had fun, hopefully learning a bit along the way.
As far as I can see, good fights are out there...
:noid Shhh.
hehe, In all seriousness, it was fun, and I enjoyed it a lot and the fact that we could enjoy a nice close 1v1. Was glad to see those two new bases we picked to meet between were really close together, with no dars at all. The last one was a really good one too; can't wait till I can review the film. :aok
donkey
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I know that there has always been BnZers, HO'er, Gangers, etc, but there was a time when I could log on and almost be certain of atleast 1-2 good fun fights. Recently, of course it has been happening even earlier than now, I have noticed that every fight has one side all at 10K+ and the other side below 5K being BnZ'd the entire time. Where has all the good fights gone? You can find a good fight sometimes (maybe once every month?!), but now it's just 109s, 190, La's, Spits, P51's, and the occassional TYPH/TEMP just BnZing then Running or 6 guys diving on 1 guy. It's gotten to the point where I reversed a Spitfire and watched him dive and run to the nearest ack, which was OUR ack! Heck, I've seen a Zeke BnZing from 25K a few days ago! Even the DA has a few "gang up on one guy" moments.
I did not intend for this to be a "whine", I just want to know if there is anyone left who will actually fight 1-on-1??
ok...so here's tonight's fun fights..... i see A24 getting pounded, but cons a ways off......so i up a hellkitty. get jumped by a hi spit/109 combo, but manage to evade....i let my sa down, and suddenlyi'm in the tower....someone told me it was the 190 that came in faster than an SR71. i re-up in my kitty......see a ju87-friendly and ask the friendly if he wants help or for me to stay out....no answer, so i go in, and kill the stuka.....it's storch..you all know what came next......i land that run as i'm low fuel, and re-up my kitty.....and am promptly shot down as soon as i'm clear the ack. i re-up in zeke......same result. no prob, i launch from base 30 or so miles away, and grab. level at 10-12k, thinkin i;m high enough.....not so....find a 190, 109, spit and zeke all higher. i dodge the 190's pass, then an f4u comes in......now it's 5-1....the corsair lights me up, and PW's me.....i keep trying to turn, and blackout. ok...now time to land......i make one attempt, and dodge a vulhc attempt. make the next attempt and get vulched just as i come to a stop.(wanna guess who?) i re-up the zeke and climb out to 14k this time. find 2 hurri2's co-alt, and engage....kill one, then the other tears me apart(this fight was fun, although VERY quick...<<S>>oldman, and stickpig). so now all i find after these are runners, and base porkers......oo...and a lone p38 attacking my ju's<<S>>corbia....was nice attacks......this is all in MW......and i noticed a lot of the names i saw on the roster were guys normally found in LW arenas......and THEY were all the alt monkeys tonight. seriously..hwat does it take to just find a nice low fight these days? i mean these are only cartoon airplanes afterall. ooo..and lest i forget, wanna gues who i had to listne to a rash of BS from? he talks constantly about how great he is and how much the rest of us suck and have no talent, but yet, when asked..and nicely i might add....he absolutley refuses to offer any help on improving. so here he is one of the complainers of no good fights, but when given the chance to improve them by teaching some of those of us lesser skilled, he refuses. stupid, childish mentality from an old guy in my opinion.
anyway, that's my rant for the night
<<S>>
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fighting at high altitude does not work with the types of planes i fly. i like to slug it out on deck. if i encounter i high con i will avoid him. survival is paramont in warfare.
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fighting at high altitude does not work with the types of planes i fly. i like to slug it out on deck. if i encounter i high con i will avoid him. survival is paramont in warfare.
LOW ALT IS MY PREFERENCE TOO.....but when you find all the cons up high, and can't fgure out hot\w to beat the hi guys....you go up there with them........if i'm co-alt, i can at least give ya a good fight.......
<<S>>
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See, (IMO) it's not possible to have a decent fight with someone who doesn't care whether they win or lose. Can you imagine playing ANY game with someone who just doesn't care? How boring and pointless...
MtnMan
You missed the boat on that one....
What he means is he'll fight to the death if required...... not run away. Some of the best fights are when your outnumbered OTD and come out victorious. If you just ran away from anything that is a challenge you'd never get any better in your cartoon plane.
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Back in the day (jeesh I'm an old geezer) if you saw someone in a 1 v 1 you always asked if the friendly needed help or if they wanted you to butt out. Courtesy.
Doesn't seem to exist anymore.
Last week I'm in a heavy jug and see a corsair co-alt. I drop my ords and am about to engage when a 4+k advantage nik1 swoops down on me...within seconds another corsair and nik1 show up.
I asked the guy who killed me how come he wouldn't let me have a nice 1 v 1 with the corsair driver...he said "the corsair flier asked for help with all the alt advantage you had" :huh
Unless you go to the DA, your chances of a nice 1 v 1 are exceedingly rare. Expect to get ganged and you won't be dissapointed.
Outside of that, if you fly EW early mornings North American time, you might luck out and get a 1 v 1.
ROX
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You missed the boat on that one....
What he means is he'll fight to the death if required...... not run away. Some of the best fights are when your outnumbered OTD and come out victorious. If you just ran away from anything that is a challenge you'd never get any better in your cartoon plane.
Ooops, I think you dropped in between the boat and the pier... Here lemme give you a hand-
99.99% of my fights result in "death" for one of us, that's pretty much a given in my fights and isn't the issue.
My point stands- an opponent with no desire to win isn't much of an opponent. In my world, a desire to win isn't the same thing as an expectation to win (although it's obviously possible to desire to win and expect to win)( as it's also possible to have a strong desire to win, and a low expectation of actually accomplishing it). Exhibiting a desire is not the same thing as "not caring". Handling defeat well also isn't "not caring", it's learning that you can't always get what you desire, and behaving maturely anyway.
"Not caring" implies a lack of interest. It's a rather neutral (and often seen as negative) stance when compared to desire. Lemme give you another example-
I "don't care" whom Hillary Clinton (or you) dates. (At all)( That could change I suppose depending on exactly who she (or you) chose- my father or mother for example).
I "do care" whom my daughter dates. I have a very strong desire that my wife not date at all anymore (except me :)).
Interpersonal interactions are more fulfilling and interesting (opposite of boring) if both/all participants "care". That's true for loads of examples- games, sports, sex, ad infinitum. Try having an interesting, fulfilling, example of any of those with a disinterested partner, who simply "doesn't care".
By their very nature, competitive sports and games have a winner and a loser. It should be expected that someone will lose, since there is generally only one "winner" or "winning team". That doesn't mean the "loser" didn't "desire" to win.
That quote was given in response to someone stating they "didn't care". As in "neutral in desire". As in "I don't care, so I'm not really trying..."
Anyone who "doesn't care" likely wouldn't even be playing the game, and if they were their time might be better spent watching TV, where a fullfilling interaction isn't as dependant on both/all participants having a "desire" to succeed, whether they "expected" to or not.
MtnMan
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I ran across someone in a F6F same as mine his name was talon1 or somethin sorry i cant remember the name exactly but we did a nose on pass no hits we both extended about 1 K turned and did another pass. It turned into a hoin contest..LOL , what was cool was none of his other 5 buddies around tried pickin me off it was 2 identical planes goin at it for 4 or 5 passes i ended up gettin my tail damaged and went down and i dont know wherther or not he survived the encounter and im not a fan of the Ho but it was a fight to the death and was a fun sortie non the less. :salute mr talon
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I think everyone has a desire to win. But the amount of emphasis you place on coming out alive decides how or how not you fight. Some will not pass up the oppurtunity to fight even if they do not have the advantage or loose the advantage. If I see you, mntman, I am quite sure I will be shot down if I attack...but attack I will. I want to shoot you down but if I last 3 or 4 turns I will be happy. That was an improvment over last time I fought you and in a way I feel like I won something :D.. same with Dedalos...M00t...snaphook and others.
If I placed a lot of emphasis on not being shot down and saw you I could run and say I "won" that engagement because I got away.
<S>
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Absolutely true WWM. Don't count on me waiting for you to initiate the attack though ;)
I think too much emphasis on living is as bad as too little emphasis on living.
If all emphasis is on getting as many killing, with no care given to "surviving" why not just rush in into an HO joust fest?
If all emphasis is on living, why leave the tower?
MtnMan
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Ooops, I think you dropped in between the boat and the pier... Here lemme give you a hand-
99.99% of my fights result in "death" for one of us, that's pretty much a given in my fights and isn't the issue.
My point stands- an opponent with no desire to win isn't much of an opponent. In my world, a desire to win isn't the same thing as an expectation to win (although it's obviously possible to desire to win and expect to win)( as it's also possible to have a strong desire to win, and a low expectation of actually accomplishing it). Exhibiting a desire is not the same thing as "not caring". Handling defeat well also isn't "not caring", it's learning that you can't always get what you desire, and behaving maturely anyway.
"Not caring" implies a lack of interest. It's a rather neutral (and often seen as negative) stance when compared to desire. Lemme give you another example-
I "don't care" whom Hillary Clinton (or you) dates. (At all)( That could change I suppose depending on exactly who she (or you) chose- my father or mother for example).
I "do care" whom my daughter dates. I have a very strong desire that my wife not date at all anymore (except me :)).
Interpersonal interactions are more fulfilling and interesting (opposite of boring) if both/all participants "care". That's true for loads of examples- games, sports, sex, ad infinitum. Try having an interesting, fulfilling, example of any of those with a disinterested partner, who simply "doesn't care".
By their very nature, competitive sports and games have a winner and a loser. It should be expected that someone will lose, since there is generally only one "winner" or "winning team". That doesn't mean the "loser" didn't "desire" to win.
That quote was given in response to someone stating they "didn't care". As in "neutral in desire". As in "I don't care, so I'm not really trying..."
Anyone who "doesn't care" likely wouldn't even be playing the game, and if they were their time might be better spent watching TV, where a fullfilling interaction isn't as dependant on both/all participants having a "desire" to succeed, whether they "expected" to or not.
MtnMan
Like I said... missed the boat AND the pier. Maybe you were back peddling trying to explain yourself and didn't notice. :lol
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Lol, where did I back-pedal? I still stand by my original statement.
I think you're confused.
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Personally, I fly stupid - I attack where I probably shouldnt, hang around too long looking for more fights etc etc etc. I dont expect to live through every flight, which would give the impression I dont care if I die ingame. This is a wrong impression - as I do care - but, I prefer to find a fight, get kills and further my experience - I occassionally land with them (as no one else ups, or comes along before I get bored).
I love this game, and love the interaction with people from all over the world (it wont stop me trying to shoot em down tho!!). If I die ingame to a good fight - whilst I'm not happy I lost (I'm actually a really bad loser), at least I tried my best (in each and every fight - win or lose!).
just my 0.0000001p worth, ymmv
Wurzel
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It's gotten to the point where I reversed a Spitfire and watched him dive and run to the nearest ack, which was OUR ack!
:rofl
I was in a P-38J the other night fighting a P-47D-40. We started high and ended on the deck over the water. I ended up with the advantage but by the time I had the perfect shot I was bingo ammo so I just stayed on the guy to see if I could force him to auger.
He basically ran for a CV doing some evasives along the way. It was our CV and he died in the ack. :rofl
He did send me a <S> afterward, which I returned without rubbing it in.
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What does 1-on-1 have to do with a good fight?
If you want a good fight, you create the situation you want.
If it is only 1-on-1 you enjoy, go to DA or TA to get your fix
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I think everyone has a desire to win. But the amount of emphasis you place on coming out alive decides how or how not you fight. Some will not pass up the oppurtunity to fight even if they do not have the advantage or loose the advantage. If I see you, mntman, I am quite sure I will be shot down if I attack...but attack I will. I want to shoot you down but if I last 3 or 4 turns I will be happy. That was an improvment over last time I fought you and in a way I feel like I won something :D.. same with Dedalos...M00t...snaphook and others.
If I placed a lot of emphasis on not being shot down and saw you I could run and say I "won" that engagement because I got away.
<S>
i'm going to imagine mtman is quite good then, as my fight with you the other week was fun..and you flew it with excellence. i think the best part of the whole thing, was that one of my squaddies, and one of your countrymen showed up, and neither had engaged. my only regret about that entire fight was the fact that i turned off when i saw part of your wing come off....though ya were done.
i like that attitude too......it means you're gonna improve.
<<S>>
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My point stands- an opponent with no desire to win isn't much of an opponent. In my world, a desire to win isn't the same thing as an expectation to win (although it's obviously possible to desire to win and expect to win)( as it's also possible to have a strong desire to win, and a low expectation of actually accomplishing it). Exhibiting a desire is not the same thing as "not caring". Handling defeat well also isn't "not caring", it's learning that you can't always get what you desire, and behaving maturely anyway.
"Not caring" implies a lack of interest. It's a rather neutral (and often seen as negative) stance when compared to desire.
Well, you suggest that anyone more concerned with having the fight than winning it isn't a worthy opponent. You have made (at least, where I am concerned) some incorrect assumptions.
By their very nature, competitive sports and games have a winner and a loser. It should be expected that someone will lose, since there is generally only one "winner" or "winning team". That doesn't mean the "loser" didn't "desire" to win.
The main arena game really doesn't qualify as sport or game in the classic sense. In the sports/games you are talking about, there are rules that insure a balanced playing field for the competitors. That does not apply to the MA.
That quote was given in response to someone stating they "didn't care". As in "neutral in desire". As in "I don't care, so I'm not really trying..."
Anyone who "doesn't care" likely wouldn't even be playing the game, and if they were their time might be better spent watching TV, where a fullfilling interaction isn't as dependant on both/all participants having a "desire" to succeed, whether they "expected" to or not.
MtnMan
Your assumption that anyone that doesn't care about losing isn't trying to win is false. Since winning or losing in the MA has no meaning , in a real sense, why on earth should anyone care? Frankly, anyone seriously concerned with the outcome of a totally virtual 'fight' probably SHOULD spending his time watching TV. :devil
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my only regret about that entire fight was the fact that i turned off when i saw part of your wing come off....though ya were done.
i like that attitude too......it means you're gonna improve.
<<S>>
:D Dedalos routinely picks one of my wings off in the DA.....so I have a lot of practice continueing to try to engage with half a wing :uhoh
<S> was a good fight.
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What does 1-on-1 have to do with a good fight?
If you want a good fight, you create the situation you want.
If it is only 1-on-1 you enjoy, go to DA or TA to get your fix
It's short-hand for even fights, whether that's Urchin in a 3:1, or two random pilots in a DA style duel, or any permutation of the variables where the pilots are pretty much the deciding factor.
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..I truly had no intention of riling you...
I know, was never riled, just trying to clear up a misunderstanding :).
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What does 1-on-1 have to do with a good fight?
If you want a good fight, you create the situation you want.
If it is only 1-on-1 you enjoy, go to DA or TA to get your fix
Because some of us like unknown factor of coming upon a 1v1 instead of 'setting' it up. Who are you fighting? Are they good, bad, what? You don't know what plane you'll be up against, or whether you will be at a disadvantage or not until right before it starts. These unknowns are what can make it even more exciting rather then knowing exactly everything about the fight before hand except perhaps the outcome.
donkey
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I agree with what many of you guys had to say about finding a "fun fight". I believe that we all find fun in different aspects of this game. There is no right or wrong way to approach it.
For example, I've seen Guppy (aka Corky) take off in his 38G heading toward a furball. He doesn't climb out past 500ft before he levels. I remember thinking to myself that he's nuts if he thinks he's going to live. But that's the way he likes to challenge himself; Taking a high eny and rarely used plane into some of the biggest fights in the MA. I sense he likes to be the underdog and overcoming the odds against him. I can totally relate to that style of thinking.
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It's short-hand for even fights, whether that's Urchin in a 3:1, or two random pilots in a DA style duel, or any permutation of the variables where the pilots are pretty much the deciding factor.
3v1 fights are always a hoot. We run 3v1 clinics in the TA from time to time... Learning to fight a mob is a challenge, but great fun.
After a wingman clinic I dueled 7-man squad (in F4Us) with a P-38G. That was blast.. In a seven on one, you don't even think about getting shot up, you just wade in a whack as many as possible.
Is it in bad taste to say that I got all of them? :o
Seriously, any fight where the outcome is the result of skill is entertaining. Winning isn't as important as participating and having fun.
In the MA, I look for incoming hordes and head out to tear them to shreds.
My regards,
Widewing
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Because some of us like unknown factor of coming upon a 1v1 instead of 'setting' it up. Who are you fighting? Are they good, bad, what? You don't know what plane you'll be up against, or whether you will be at a disadvantage or not until right before it starts. These unknowns are what can make it even more exciting rather then knowing exactly everything about the fight before hand except perhaps the outcome.
donkey
another night of runners(our buddy again) and ho'rs, and alt monkeys in MW.....know what i've been noticing though?
most of the really hi flyers are W guys comming to MW. no wonder we can't find any good fights in MW anymore....and i know i'm gonna get flamed for this, but it sucks....if i'm at 7k, i'm too low and get picked bu an FW that could outrun a blackbird......i go to 10k, still too low....go to 15, still too low......20 or so, and STILL too low. WTF????? do this many people in LW REALLY have this much time to go that high? the last time i was in LW, i remember furballs on the deck, but i'm guessing not anymore.........and the majority of the ones doing the picking, ho'ing, etc, are also the ones ya see in here complaining about it. it's almost looking like it might be time to go find another hobby i guess. this USED to be fun.....till abusive people(i use that word loosely) started comming in here with their verbal diahreaha.
anyway, that's tonight's rant..........
<<S>>to those who actually FIGHT
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3v1 fights are always a hoot. We run 3v1 clinics in the TA from time to time... Learning to fight a mob is a challenge, but great fun.
After a wingman clinic I dueled 7-man squad (in F4Us) with a P-38G. That was blast.. In a seven on one, you don't even think about getting shot up, you just wade in a whack as many as possible.
Is it in bad taste to say that I got all of them? :o
Seriously, any fight where the outcome is the result of skill is entertaining. Winning isn't as important as participating and having fun.
In the MA, I look for incoming hordes and head out to tear them to shreds.
My regards,
Widewing
I'm going to have to try that, next time you guys run that setup in the TA. Sounds like a lot of fun :)
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Your assumption that anyone that doesn't care about losing isn't trying to win is false. Since winning or losing in the MA has no meaning , in a real sense, why on earth should anyone care? Frankly, anyone seriously concerned with the outcome of a totally virtual 'fight' probably SHOULD spending his time watching TV. :devil
This game has no meaning in a real sense? It could be argued that any competitive game or sport has real meaning. Winning any particular game obviously doesn't matter, but what it teaches you about individual and team effort does, as does what it teaches you about socially accepted behavior following the win or loss. Games and sports also develop physical and/or mental accuity. (Some more than others, and the effects aren't always positive). The list could go on. In that sense, games and sports do have meaning. And it's a much deeper meaning than what meets the eye.
Why do people play/participate in games and sports at all? Why do people (and animals) compete? If you think it's just for fun, you need to re-think things. We often allow the entertainment value to conceal the real reasons and values in question. If you want to argue that it's just for entertainment, consider this- WHY are games and sports entertaining? And why are they entertaining for spectators as well as participants?
Life is a competition. Games and sports simulate facets of real life. How you apply yourself in a simulation is a representation of how you perform in real life.
My intent has never been to discredit the methods employed by Guppy/Corky, Mensa, or the others. Their methods aren't much different from mine. Read between the lines and you'll see I'm actually supporting them, which makes some of the responses frankly hilarious. My intent was to show the vocabulary used to describe their methods was incorrect. Guppy (and others) stated he enjoys the challenge of disadvantaged fights, whether he wins or loses. I never for a moment doubted that. He enjoys trying to come out ahead (get a few kills). Trying to prevail isn't "not caring". If he truly "didn't care" he wouldn't be "trying". He's also implied (as have others) that he doesn't care for the styles of others whom he see's as "not trying". That is implied when complaints are registered against those who "won't try to beat me" and choose to run away instead, or otherwise avoid fighting (avoid the attempt to "win"). Corky says more or less "Come on! Put forth some effort, take some risk! Follow my example!". Which is different from "I don't care". Corky does care, which is what (IMO) makes him worth fighting. And he wants his opponents to care as well, maybe not about whether they win or lose, but about putting forth their best effort. We need more Corkys in the game, whether they prefer to fight on the deck or in the clouds. He's putting forth an effort to beat his opponent rather than avoid the fight. Saying he "doesn't care" would be mis-representing the truth. I've seen him fight, and he's putting forth far too much effort to "not care".
So NoBaddy, I'm not disagreeing with you when you say "Frankly, anyone seriously concerned with the outcome of a totally virtual 'fight'..."
You're right they shouldn't care about the "outcome", but rather the effort put forth that lead to that outcome. You'll never put forth your best effort if you "don't care". And if someone "doesn't care", they'll never put forth enough effort to be much of an opponent.
MtnMan
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Well said MtnMan. Unfortunately many of the folks who should read that generally require the Readers Digest version. :aok
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:salute Shuffler
Maybe some need a shorter/simpler version, but if they take the time to sort through it hopefully they'll get the real message.
It's also worth noting that the guy who avoids the fight may be putting his best effort forth to accomplish a different goal. Leveling the town, for example.
MtnMan
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Hopefully he brought torps to level the town... :rofl
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:salute Shuffler
Maybe some need a shorter/simpler version, but if they take the time to sort through it hopefully they'll get the real message.
It's also worth noting that the guy who avoids the fight may be putting his best effort forth to accomplish a different goal. Leveling the town, for example.
MtnMan
those guys are generally in bombers though, aren't they? the ones i think that say that are simply making excuses...
<<S>>
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Personally, I am sick of having to climb to 10k + just to be on an even playing field with most of the guys in here.
And most of the time its alot higher than that.
Don't really care about the historical accuracy of it.
It seems no matter how high you climb, they are always higher. And if they are not, they will run away until they are. Fun Fun Fun!
And yet all you hear from guys on these BBs is that they can never find a "good Fight"
Its kinda a catch 22. If you don,t get high,you die. So consequently everyone keeps flying higher and higher(regardess of their motives)
And guess what?
They are usually flying so high they don't see the opportunity for a good fight fly right underneath them at 5-6k.
Just Sayin,
Boner
Boner... Read my tag line!
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We as a squad play mostly in the DA, and have grown almost to capacity. We are TA's Aerofighters, Inc. and most DA'ers dont like us because we actually stick together. With that said, most of us like the good fights. By virtue of sticking together though, we get perceived as bangers. If you'd like a 1v1 or 2v2, ask for one. Someone in the DA will oblige. I know I will, especially if you mention this thread. I love a good 1v1 or even a 1v2 in the canyons. Anyways, if you feel ganged by TA's, it might be best to check the map for a few reds that aren't all bunched up, and then pick your battles. Otherwise, ask for a duel, and a TA will oblige you.
Daddy
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We as a squad play mostly in the DA, and have grown almost to capacity. We are TA's Aerofighters, Inc. and most DA'ers dont like us because we actually stick together. With that said, most of us like the good fights. By virtue of sticking together though, we get perceived as bangers. If you'd like a 1v1 or 2v2, ask for one. Someone in the DA will oblige. I know I will, especially if you mention this thread. I love a good 1v1 or even a 1v2 in the canyons. Anyways, if you feel ganged by TA's, it might be best to check the map for a few reds that aren't all bunched up, and then pick your battles. Otherwise, ask for a duel, and a TA will oblige you.
Daddy
:rofl :rofl :rofl :rofl
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No kidding..
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No kidding..
:rofl
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This game has no meaning in a real sense? It could be argued that any competitive game or sport has real meaning. Winning any particular game obviously doesn't matter, but what it teaches you about individual and team effort does, as does what it teaches you about socially accepted behavior following the win or loss. Games and sports also develop physical and/or mental accuity. (Some more than others, and the effects aren't always positive). The list could go on. In that sense, games and sports do have meaning. And it's a much deeper meaning than what meets the eye.
The above analogy really doesn't work. As I pointed out, AH really doesn't correspond to the games/sports you are talking about, since scoring is easily manipulated and actual balance is a rarity. As far as teaching goes, been there done that...so long ago the T-shirt is long gone. :) As for the greater meaning of games, perhaps for some of the younger members of the community such holds true.
Why do people play/participate in games and sports at all? Why do people (and animals) compete? If you think it's just for fun, you need to re-think things. We often allow the entertainment value to conceal the real reasons and values in question. If you want to argue that it's just for entertainment, consider this- WHY are games and sports entertaining? And why are they entertaining for spectators as well as participants?
Life is a competition. Games and sports simulate facets of real life. How you apply yourself in a simulation is a representation of how you perform in real life.
So, what you are saying is that we need to learn the esoteric value of games? There are many different reasons people play games, not the least of which is personal entertainment.
In point of fact, performance AH in no way is a "representation of how you perform in real life". Bottomline, life is life....AH MA's are entertainment. Now, if you would like to make your comparisons to the scenario game...I would consider the analogies to be more accurate. I do care about those out comes. That being said, the MA's are designed to be a free-for-all and THAT is what negates the analogies you make.
My intent has never been to discredit the methods employed by Guppy/Corky, Mensa, or the others. Their methods aren't much different from mine. Read between the lines and you'll see I'm actually supporting them, which makes some of the responses frankly hilarious. My intent was to show the vocabulary used to describe their methods was incorrect.........
In part, my point is that you project your meaning into what someone else has posted. You contend that anyone saying that they don't care about the outcome isn't competitive and there for isn't a worthy opponent. It simply isn't so. One thing I learned many years ago is to not make assumptions about what people type in a BBS. Doing so is guaranteed to create misunderstandings. Sorry, but that appears to be what you have been doing.
So NoBaddy, I'm not disagreeing with you when you say "Frankly, anyone seriously concerned with the outcome of a totally virtual 'fight'..."
You're right they shouldn't care about the "outcome", but rather the effort put forth that lead to that outcome. You'll never put forth your best effort if you "don't care". And if someone "doesn't care", they'll never put forth enough effort to be much of an opponent.
None of what I'm saying is intended as a slight toward you or anyone else. You merely based your initial argument on the false assumption that anyone that doesn't care about the eventual outcome is incapable of being competitive.
Everyone here could probably do with more TV watching. :lol :aok
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Lol, you don't desire to win/succeed/live? Then why complain when you don't get what you don't desire? If you want to be ganged or picked , the best way I can think of to do that is to mosey in at 3-5k. I won't call that foolish, as it's your buck to spend any way you want, but I would consider it foolish if you then complained about getting ganged or picked. No desire to succeed? Why play at all? Go watch some TV...
What is it you guys want? You talk of flying "safe" like it's a defective method, but whine because you get shot down flying like you want to get shot down? It sounds like the low slow crowd wants to be seen as an elite brand of cartoon pilots, but with arguments like that it ain't ever gonna happen, lol. You'll be seen as "slow" maybe, but never "elite", lol. Or maybe we're taking this too seriously? Maybe this isn't a real complaint, but more of a tongue in cheek, clown-like, jehugsl, "complaint" meant to draw attention and some chuckles? An attempt at humor?
Slam the "cartoon" all you want, this is a game. So is football, baseball, poker,pool, darts, whatever. Ask around, see how many football players don't care whether they win or lose. If they didn't care, they wouldn't play. Players who don't want to play drag the game down
Without the higher alt fights, the low fights would get boring, as would the high alt fights without the low, or the furballing without the toolshedders, or the toolshedding without the furballing, or the gv'ing without the associated air war, etc, etc, etc... All those facets together is what makes this game fun. Without any one of them it would be significantly less enjoyable.
If we didn't feel that way, we wouldn't be here. Or if we were, and really only wanted to see one facet of the game we'd all be hiding in various corners of the DA or TA.
Don't get me wrong, it doesn't bother me at all if you don't care. I'll simply pick you on my way to a decent fight. I won't lose any sleep over it, and won't devote any more effort to it than it deserves. But if you think I'm going to see this style of fighting in the MA as "elite" in any real sense, that won't happen until the whines stop.
The funny thing is that without the associated whines, I'd see it in a different light. I'd see it as game players making conscious decisions, knowing the likely outcome of those decisions, and living happily with the results they knew were very probable. Without the complaints, it looks honorable. Start up with the complaints, and it looks foolish.
MtnMan
Agreed.
If u go in at 3 k and the fights at 5 k and you get picked, how can you complain? Should the enemy come down and go co alt so you can have a "fun fight"?
jeez we try to do our best to win.....Dont care what you say but if you fly in the MA's your trying to get kills and survive. That "I don't care if I win or lose dosen't hold water. (or else you would slow down fly straight and level when you lose the advantage).
I seem to find "fun fights" all the time in MW. Could be a High 38.... But I'm gonna try my best to not let him get me and try to get him to blow his E and get co alt with him. Could be going into a 2 on 1 and knowing you have to make the right moves to come out on top.
The Challenge of each engagement is fun to me
Guess you have to define what fun is.
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Agreed.
If u go in at 3 k and the fights at 5 k and you get picked, how can you complain? Should the enemy come down and go co alt so you can have a "fun fight"?
jeez we try to do our best to win.....Dont care what you say but if you fly in the MA's your trying to get kills and survive. That "I don't care if I win or lose dosen't hold water. (or else you would slow down fly straight and level when you lose the advantage).
I seem to find "fun fights" all the time in MW. Could be a High 38.... But I'm gonna try my best to not let him get me and try to get him to blow his E and get co alt with him. Could be going into a 2 on 1 and knowing you have to make the right moves to come out on top.
The Challenge of each engagement is fun to me
Guess you have to define what fun is.
fun to me is what i had against you and oldman a couple nights ago in MW.......2-1 where u were in the flight of 2.......neither one of ya tried anything like ho'ing or naything like that....was just about co-alt too......i misjudged you though, as i thought you had extended far enough out to be no problem as your wingie was low enough on e to let me get him...it was a fun fight, and i DON'T care that i lost that fight....as for slowing down and flying straight when you lose the advantage...there's no fun in that...tyring to re-gain the advantage is still fun..or just making it harder for the other guy to get ya in my case....the problem lately though is all the really hi flyers......fights used to be 3k to 6k in MW......but c'mon.....i ALMOST didn't climb to the 14k that we met at because the fight at the base was on the deck.....but i did anyway, and there, lo and behold are a pair of hurri2's up there with me....had i only gone in at the originally planned 5k, i'd have never made it to any fight....and there were a BUNCH higher than 14k.....some over 20k. why? even the bombers don't normally fly that high in there....i mean sometimes when i wanna relax, i climb out from a rearward base and listne to the drone of the engines, and read the 200 for amusement....and lately participate in the 200 comedy show.......but the guys that jump into the furballs, or the 3-1's with a disadvantage, i think truely don't care, as lone as they have fun...where as the guys at 15-20k, bnz'ing......well......they obviously do care, otherwise they'd join in the melee down on the deck.
<<S>>
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That "I don't care if I win or lose dosen't hold water. (or else you would slow down fly straight and level when you lose the advantage).
Actually, it does. When what you care about is having an entertaining fight. Some of the best fights I've ever had, I lost. I don't care...they were GREAT fights.....and THAT is what these folks are saying.
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Actually, it does. When what you care about is having an entertaining fight. Some of the best fights I've ever had, I lost. I don't care...they were GREAT fights.....and THAT is what these folks are saying.
hhmm....quickest, shortest, most sensible repl yet......
<<S>>
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Ive had fights where I go out and play safe and get a bunch of kills and land. And Ive had fights where Ive gone out and taken on a bunch and made it out alive. Those are the ones I remember and try to duplicate.
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Actually, it does. When what you care about is having an entertaining fight. Some of the best fights I've ever had, I lost. I don't care...they were GREAT fights.....and THAT is what these folks are saying.
What I was trying to say is that most people care if they win or lose....Thats why we manuver till the very end. The point is if you get all bent out of shape when you do lose. I have great fights all the time that I lose.... and have fun doing it. Alot of them have been to you LOL
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Fun Fights Extinct?
Exactly
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Ive had fights where I go out and play safe and get a bunch of kills and land. And Ive had fights where Ive gone out and taken on a bunch and made it out alive. Those are the ones I remember and try to duplicate.
And this is the crack cocaine of AH...
Balsy
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What is a fun fight? Is it a fun fight for you, or for all of us?
What some people do is try to fly and play the game and have fun no matter what the fight is.
Other people want it to be a 1 on 1.
Still others want to be outnumbers and kill everyone and come back as a hero.
One thing in common is that we all have our vision of what the game should be and can never agree on how it should be played.
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I feel guilty. I seem to be having fun fights every time I log on. It really boils down to how you look at it. I have the great 1 v 1's, but they do tend to come around sparingly. I certainly think it makes them more memorable occuring every once in a while, as opposed to everytime I up a plane. The best thing about the normal MA play, is you never know what is going to happen from sortie to sortie. Live and let die folks, not everybody has the same AH preferences. :aok
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What I was trying to say is that most people care if they win or lose....Thats why we manuver till the very end. The point is if you get all bent out of shape when you do lose. I have great fights all the time that I lose.... and have fun doing it. Alot of them have been to you LOL
Stick...
I kinda knew that was what you were saying... :) I purposely read into what you said..MORE than what you said. That is what I've seen folks doing throughout this thread. Contrary to what some would like to believe, there is no "meaning" to the game and the actions that result from playing it. There is only entertainment. If one is having fun (being entertained) then that is all that matters.....win, lose or draw. :salute
BTW Filth...
I know what you mean. Some of my most memorable fights ended with no one "dying". But, they were awesome nail biters!!!!! :rock
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The above analogy really doesn't work. As I pointed out, AH really doesn't correspond to the games/sports you are talking about, since scoring is easily manipulated and actual balance is a rarity. As far as teaching goes, been there done that...so long ago the T-shirt is long gone. :) As for the greater meaning of games, perhaps for some of the younger members of the community such holds true. So, what you are saying is that we need to learn the esoteric value of games? There are many different reasons people play games, not the least of which is personal entertainment.
In point of fact, performance AH in no way is a "representation of how you perform in real life". Bottomline, life is life....AH MA's are entertainment. Now, if you would like to make your comparisons to the scenario game...I would consider the analogies to be more accurate. I do care about those out comes. That being said, the MA's are designed to be a free-for-all and THAT is what negates the analogies you make.In part, my point is that you project your meaning into what someone else has posted. You contend that anyone saying that they don't care about the outcome isn't competitive and there for isn't a worthy opponent. It simply isn't so. One thing I learned many years ago is to not make assumptions about what people type in a BBS. Doing so is guaranteed to create misunderstandings. Sorry, but that appears to be what you have been doing. None of what I'm saying is intended as a slight toward you or anyone else. You merely based your initial argument on the false assumption that anyone that doesn't care about the eventual outcome is incapable of being competitive.
Everyone here could probably do with more TV watching. :lol :aok
We're not talking about score or the outcome of the fight. We're talking about the effort put forth. You seem stuck purely on the outcome. If you truly find winning and lossing to be equal, would it be logical to assume you'd try equally hard to lose as you do to win? If you try harder to win (and don't try to lose) it would imply you have more desire to win than to lose, and have placed a higher value on success than on failure. Simply manuevering your plane to try to shoot your opponent (or to dodge his shot) implies a desire to not lose, and would seem to show that an equal desire to win or lose doesn't exist.
Numerical score can be easily manipulated, which is why we aren't discussing it here. It really has no basis in my argument. I'm talking about two opponents trying to beat each other. Competition doesn't always require score. Simply a winner and a loser. If there is no clear cut victor score becomes more necessary. In a 1v1 engagement the winner is pretty obvious, unless someone would care to argue that the winner has somehow lost, or that the loser has won, or that equal status is associated with winning and losing. If we wanted to do that we'd have to set up a scoring system for the 1v1's so we could measure different facets of the 1v1 (or 2v1, or whatever). I have no interest in doing that, although it could be interesting. Again, it would be "score" so would probably be able to be manipulated...
I agree with you when you say "In point of fact, performance AH in no way is a "representation of how you perform in real life"." because you're talking about performance. Performance can be measured in this game, and is based on outcome. I'm talking about effort and desire, which aren't as easy to define or measure and aren't based on outcome, since the effort is applied before the outcome is known.
You bring up an interesting point with score manipulation. I'd love to see how "score manipulators" handle similar aspects in real life. This is another area where a game simulates facets of real life. How do those people handle themselves when "nobody's watching", and there aren't any consequences for < insert forbidden "C" word here >. Equally interesting would be to see how those who refuse to manipulate their score handle similar real life situations.
The scenario's aspect is interesting too. How would you feel if your teammates weren't trying to "win", or just didn't care one way or the other?
MtnMan
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We're not talking about score or the outcome of the fight. We're talking about the effort put forth. You seem stuck purely on the outcome. If you truly find winning and lossing to be equal, would it be logical to assume you'd try equally hard to lose as you do to win? If you try harder to win (and don't try to lose) it would imply you have more desire to win than to lose, and have placed a higher value on success than on failure. Simply manuevering your plane to try to shoot your opponent (or to dodge his shot) implies a desire to not lose, and would seem to show that an equal desire to win or lose doesn't exist.
Numerical score can be easily manipulated, which is why we aren't discussing it here. It really has no basis in my argument. I'm talking about two opponents trying to beat each other. Competition doesn't always require score. Simply a winner and a loser. If there is no clear cut victor score becomes more necessary. In a 1v1 engagement the winner is pretty obvious, unless someone would care to argue that the winner has somehow lost, or that the loser has won, or that equal status is associated with winning and losing. If we wanted to do that we'd have to set up a scoring system for the 1v1's so we could measure different facets of the 1v1 (or 2v1, or whatever). I have no interest in doing that, although it could be interesting. Again, it would be "score" so would probably be able to be manipulated...
I agree with you when you say "In point of fact, performance AH in no way is a "representation of how you perform in real life"." because you're talking about performance. Performance can be measured in this game, and is based on outcome. I'm talking about effort and desire, which aren't as easy to define or measure and aren't based on outcome, since the effort is applied before the outcome is known.
You bring up an interesting point with score manipulation. I'd love to see how "score manipulators" handle similar aspects in real life. This is another area where a game simulates facets of real life. How do those people handle themselves when "nobody's watching", and there aren't any consequences for < insert forbidden "C" word here >. Equally interesting would be to see how those who refuse to manipulate their score handle similar real life situations.
The scenario's aspect is interesting too. How would you feel if your teammates weren't trying to "win", or just didn't care one way or the other?
MtnMan
Interesting to use the Scenario aspect. I think you'll find that many furballers are also long time scenario flyers. In DGS the decision was made to not post the logs after each frame. The emphasis was on the history and having fun trying to get into that history. We'd all seen how 'score' could wipe out half of a scenario if folks saw they were 'losing' on points and gave up.
In the end DGS turned out to be a helluva scenario because no one knew for sure who was "winning". It was about the 'mission' and doing the job you'd been given, not manipulating points to 'win' the scenario. In the end my team 'lost' on points, but I doubt you'd find one Allied flyer who didn't have a great time. The "win' was in the immersion, the teamwork, the effort. We didn't go out to 'lose', but we also didn't 'game the game' to win.
I had 1 kill in about 12 hours of flying, and I'd fly that thing again in a heartbeat as it was that intense and that much fun for me.
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Hehe Im rook. We dont care :P Its in our contract :)
I do want to win a fight, and in events and stuff I try to be careful. But the day to day flying in the MA
I'd rather go out and take on a hoard and die trying, sometimes survive and feel real good about it, than rack up kills and never die. That doesnt do it for me. If it does for others thats great too.
When it comes to the "war", I could care less who wins a map. My battles are local, be it a guy that shot me down in a WW and I just hafta go kill him, or a good fight with a couple of fighters around some less populated base, or a VH or CV I missed bombing because some Captain Nemo turned her at the last second and I wanna go back and sink it. Those are my battles. The rest is just a backdrop.
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In the end DGS turned out to be a helluva scenario because no one knew for sure who was "winning". It was about the 'mission' and doing the job you'd been given, not manipulating points to 'win' the scenario. In the end my team 'lost' on points, but I doubt you'd find one Allied flyer who didn't have a great time. The "win' was in the immersion, the teamwork, the effort. We didn't go out to 'lose', but we also didn't 'game the game' to win.
I had 1 kill in about 12 hours of flying, and I'd fly that thing again in a heartbeat as it was that intense and that much fun for me.
And that is exactly what I'm talking about! It's about the effort put forth, and striving to succeed, regardless of the eventual outcome (whether it's a numerical score, the result of the "war", or whatever). Winning or losing isn't the issue. The effort is what matters, and is driven by desire. The final outcome can have no bearing on the effort put forth, while the effort put forth can have a bearing on the outcome.
MtnMan
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And that is exactly what I'm talking about! It's about the effort put forth, and striving to succeed, regardless of the eventual outcome (whether it's a numerical score, the result of the "war", or whatever). Winning or losing isn't the issue. The effort is what matters, and is driven by desire. The final outcome can have no bearing on the effort put forth, while the effort put forth can have a bearing on the outcome.
MtnMan
And when I plow into a sea of red cons in the old 38G I give it my best effort :)
I usually end up as 38 parts, but it's fun just the same!
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We're not talking about score or the outcome of the fight. We're talking about the effort put forth. You seem stuck purely on the outcome. If you truly find winning and lossing to be equal, would it be logical to assume you'd try equally hard to lose as you do to win? If you try harder to win (and don't try to lose) it would imply you have more desire to win than to lose, and have placed a higher value on success than on failure. Simply manuevering your plane to try to shoot your opponent (or to dodge his shot) implies a desire to not lose, and would seem to show that an equal desire to win or lose doesn't exist.
Once again, you are making assumptions. :)
I haven't seen anyone (prior to you) say winning and losing are equal. In point of fact, what I've seen here is people saying (as have I) that the act of fighting is more important to them than the outcome. From this, you have implied that this equates to a lack of desire to win. I have merely stated that this is an incorrect assumption.
The scenario's aspect is interesting too. How would you feel if your teammates weren't trying to "win", or just didn't care one way or the other?
You question shows the flaw in your logic. No one has said that they don't try to win. They have stated that the outcome of an action (in the MA) is not important...to them. It is a HUGE leap to assume that these people aren't trying to win. You would be more accurate in saying that they are not afraid to lose, than they are not trying to win.
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You would be more accurate in saying that they are not afraid to lose, than they are not trying to win.
Quite right; bravo, old chap; well said!
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Quite right; bravo, old chap; well said!
Toad!!!! Are you coming to the con??
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We as a squad play mostly in the DA, and have grown almost to capacity. We are TA's Aerofighters, Inc. and most DA'ers dont like us because we actually stick together. With that said, most of us like the good fights. By virtue of sticking together though, we get perceived as bangers. If you'd like a 1v1 or 2v2, ask for one. Someone in the DA will oblige. I know I will, especially if you mention this thread. I love a good 1v1 or even a 1v2 in the canyons. Anyways, if you feel ganged by TA's, it might be best to check the map for a few reds that aren't all bunched up, and then pick your battles. Otherwise, ask for a duel, and a TA will oblige you.
Daddy
:huh
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Once again, you are making assumptions. :)
I haven't seen anyone (prior to you) say winning and losing are equal. In point of fact, what I've seen here is people saying (as have I) that the act of fighting is more important to them than the outcome. From this, you have implied that this equates to a lack of desire to win. I have merely stated that this is an incorrect assumption.
You question shows the flaw in your logic. No one has said that they don't try to win. They have stated that the outcome of an action (in the MA) is not important...to them. It is a HUGE leap to assume that these people aren't trying to win. You would be more accurate in saying that they are not afraid to lose, than they are not trying to win.
These threads are full of people using the same words to mean different things. Discussions about symantics suck, but sometimes they are necessary to clear the air.
This is something that needs to be cleared up: Can I "intend to win" when I climb up into 5 bad guys above me who are in aircraft similar to mine? There comes a point when "intending to win" means you might really be cognitively impaired (maybe drunk) or don't know what you're doing. In cases where there is no cognitive impairment, such a situation prevents the fearless pilot from intending to win, no matter what.
Pilot skill plays a roll here. There are people here who can intend to win in situations where for me it would be laughable.
In any case, there are external limits on what we can intend to do; it's not only psychology.
When we put ourselves into situations where there is no chance of winning, we do not "intend to win," because our language prevents us from saying so in a meaningful way. Still, I'm willing to admit that what a lot of you call fighting, or not caring about score, etc. is definitely still a case of intending to win.
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NB :salute
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Once again, you are making assumptions. :)
I haven't seen anyone (prior to you) say winning and losing are equal. In point of fact, what I've seen here is people saying (as have I) that the act of fighting is more important to them than the outcome. From this, you have implied that this equates to a lack of desire to win. I have merely stated that this is an incorrect assumption.
You question shows the flaw in your logic. No one has said that they don't try to win. They have stated that the outcome of an action (in the MA) is not important...to them. It is a HUGE leap to assume that these people aren't trying to win. You would be more accurate in saying that they are not afraid to lose, than they are not trying to win.
I've never said people aren't trying to win. I've stated that I believe that they are showing behavior that leads me to believe that they do want to win, and don't consider winning as being equally desirable to losing. They may say "I don't care whether I win or lose", or "You shouldn't care whether you win or lose" but they're behaving in a manner inconsistant with that statement. They're behaving in a manner that says (to me, at least)"I want to win, but it's ok if I lose" and "I'm going to try hard regardless of the outcome". That's different from "I don't care". My claim is that I believe when Corky goes into a swarm that although he expects to be shot down, he's going to try to not be. He's making an effort to win, not to lose. He's going about it in a very challenging manner, and I respect that. I've stated that all along. I hunt with a flintlock rifle, bow, and birds of prey for very similar reasons.
My belief is based on behavior that I've seen, heard, and interpreted. If you haven't done the same, it doesn't mean I haven't. I may mean you haven't experienced the same things I have (unlikely I think), or that you've interpreted things differently, or that you've failed to notice those things when you were exposed to them. Are you assuming I'm basing my belief on behavior I haven't witnessed? The odd thing here is that you claim I'm wrong, but then make the same argument. You're making an assumption if you think we'll interpret difficult to measure behavior the same way. The odd thing is that we appear to agree, but you claim to disagree.
I stated that I feel the desire to win is a vital ingredient to a "good fight". I stand by that. There is no point, glory, or satisfaction in beating an opponent who doesn't want to win. That is and was my opinion. I took some flack for that, and explained why I felt that the desire to win is important in any competitive game. Some people claimed to think it wasn't important to have a desire to win. This is a competitive game. If it wasn't, we'd simply be flying around and not trying to win. I would wonder about anyone who gets satisfaction from beating an opponent who isn't trying to win himself. I was explaining my own opinion, expressed in my own statement. Are you claiming I'm making assumptions regarding my own opinion?? Again, odd.
I find it odd that you claim to disagree with me, but then show examples that support my arguments. It makes me think you aren't comprehending what I've written. That really is an assumption I suppose, but I don't have a lot to go on other than your statements.
MtnMan
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I've never said people aren't trying to win. I've stated that I believe that they are showing behavior that leads me to believe that they do want to win, and don't consider winning as being equally desirable to losing. They may say "I don't care whether I win or lose", or "You shouldn't care whether you win or lose" but they're behaving in a manner inconsistant with that statement.
I'm sorry, I couldn't find a statement of yours that said you had seen this behavior and that was what you were commenting on.
See, (IMO) it's not possible to have a decent fight with someone who doesn't care whether they win or lose. Can you imagine playing ANY game with someone who just doesn't care? How boring and pointless...
This is your first post here and it was in response to Mensa posting that he just climbed to 5k and mixed it out...not caring if he lived or died. This is what I have been commenting on.
I find it odd that you claim to disagree with me, but then show examples that support my arguments. It makes me think you aren't comprehending what I've written. That really is an assumption I suppose, but I don't have a lot to go on other than your statements
Well, we do agree on some points. However, the gist of what you have been saying appears (in numerous instances) to be that don't care about the outcome aren't worthy opponents. Is that not what you said in your first post of this thread (quoted above)?
BTW, for the record....I don't care if I'm right or wrong...I just want a good argument. :devil
mtnman...it's all good...I'm just here for the floor show. :D
Stick...a big :salute bakatcha. :)
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This is something that needs to be cleared up: Can I "intend to win" when I climb up into 5 bad guys above me who are in aircraft similar to mine?
In a word....YES. :)
I can name a few folks that have done so regularly. In doing so, they became some of the best in the game (in one case, his game was AW..not AH).
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Pilot skill plays a roll here. There are people here who can intend to win in situations where for me it would be laughable.
:aok
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Well, we do agree on some points. However, the gist of what you have been saying appears (in numerous instances) to be that don't care about the outcome aren't worthy opponents. Is that not what you said in your first post of this thread (quoted above)?
The gist would be that anyone who doesn't care enough about winning (the fight, not the war) to try his/her best to beat me isn't going to give me what I would consider to be a great fight. Competing by itself isn't enough for me. I need to do my best to beat someone who's doing their best to beat me to consider it a "great fight". Both of us giving our "A" game.
IMO, the statement "I don't care if I win or not" gives me the impression that they're not even planning to try their hardest. As in, "I don't really care, so I wasn't really trying- after all, it's just a stupid cartoon plane." I don't have any contact with the opponent, and am not able to read his face, body language, tone of voice, etc, to judge his level of intensity or effort. Often, all I have to go on is text. "I'm going to do my best, regardless of the final outcome" doesn't carry the same message as "I don't care if I win or lose" (IMO). The "I don't care" implies a lack of interest, at least in my eyes. Hence, I would consider the fight diminished, even if he indeed tried his hardest, because the impression that his text (which is all I have to go on...)gives me is a lack of interest (boredom). It would be like winning a chess match against an opponent who was pre-occupied with the football game on TV, causing me to believe his head really wasn't in the chess game. The game would be diminished in my eyes, at least compared to a game where we both gave our best, undistracted, intense effort. A win wouldn't mean much to me in the first instance, where I could possibly lose in the second instance and still feel like it was a great match.
Does that make sense? An example where the reward is measured by the effort given, rather than the result?
When I see "I don't care if I win or lose" I'm immediately thinking along the lines of my opponent being more interested in the football game. Or even that the next thing I can expect is "You beat me, but it doesn't matter, because I wasn't trying that hard" or "I let you beat me", or "I was drunk, that's why you beat me". Believing that my opponent "doesn't really care" diminishes the fight for me. Can you see why?
MtnMan
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BTW, for the record....I don't care if I'm right or wrong...I just want a good argument. :devil
mtnman...it's all good...I'm just here for the floor show. :D
NoBaddy, we agree again!
I find discussing facets of the game like this to be as stimulating as playing at times. Trying to convey thoughts about why we like the game, or don't, or what's good about it, or what we think needs to be improved can be awful tough. Many of us agree on many things, but through the (our) limits of text we seem to find ourselves arguing over things we would often find we see eye-to-eye on had we just 10 minutes of in-person contact.
This is just one example. Sick as I may be, I actually enjoy the challenge of transmitting my thoughts in a manner that effectively gets my points across to people I may never meet. It can be as challenging, frustrating, and rewarding as going into a 5v1 situation on the deck in a P38G!
Arguing on the BBS (if constructive) can be as fun as flying the cartoon planes! (Well, almost, hehe!)
I welcome your challenges! It makes me rethink, revise, and refine the ideas we're discussing. This particualr argument is (in my eyes) more about how we describe our motivations in this particular aspect, and less about our differing opinions.
It's all good sir, and all fun! :salute
MtnMan
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What is fun for one person is not necessarily seen the same way by someone else. There seems to be an effort to convince everyone to fight in one manner, the one that suits those loudest thoughout the forums. For me, being new, getting to, fighting, and trying to get home after you're no longer able to contribute to the fight is a large challenge. I take it that if you are bingo, winchester, or damaged you are supposed to hang around so that others can get credit for you. Why should players have to play only one way? Right now I do not use kill/death ratio as a measure of my progress (it would be, and is, ludicrous - in my opinion only), I have to use a sorty landed /death, capture. For others, it is capturing fields, or camping runways with Wirbles, or what have you. To each their own.
I will try to extend once I am unable to continue a fight or way overmatched (usually unsuccesfully). This has nothing to do with anything other than gaining experience. Evading the enemy is still a part of warfare and gameplay as far as I am concerned, and a great tool for bettering ACM. Upping and facing death each time without benefit is not something to look forward to, getting meaningful experience does not come from doing everything recklessly.
I am serious about learning to be a better pilot and enjoying the game, getting home is sometimes a bigger challenge than getting my one weekly kill. I see planes disappear when I get in the area and I am disappointed, but someone usually replaces them. When I am able to hold my own with vets then I will be more than happy to 'not care' as the learning process will be winding down (though never over). There will always be players of varying degrees of skill and game knowledge, I enjoy the respect and comraderie of all of them that you can find here for the most part, but those who are unable to be respectful of others detracts from the game and experience. Demanding others play your way is identical to those who rant and rave, no matter how sweet you make it sound.
This repeated derision towards those who play for one side is tiresome as well. If you don't like it, fine, we know already. Instead of railing against it, provide constructive suggestions to enhance game play. It is not about a chess piece as is always added as some form of put-down to any post such as these. The sides could have been called Blue, Red and Green; UAE, UK, and Nigeria; Dragons, Panthers and Power Puffs. They are all lables, for a team. There is nothing wrong with those who wish to play as/for a team. You don't see the local sports leagues letting players change teams at will. Celebrate you have this option. They could just as easily assign you to a side by averaging rank or something and split people who usually fly together up. If you're in a squad you are playing as a team, just at a smaller level is the only difference. Should we get rid of squads or just make it so you change squad each time you fly? If you want a challenge, then fly solo against large dar bars, no one is asking you to stop.
There are three types of players on this subject, those who change often, those who don't, and those who change by tours. Ok, what is the big deal if others wish to play in an alternate manner? It doesn't affect the way you want to play. If you desire to only fight for the underdogs, you have what you want, if everyone changed to the same team as you you wouldn't be the underdog anymore. Lets move on to some real issues like being civil, debugging the game, and getting Widewing riled up :D. :salute
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mtnman...
Well, for me, you place a little too much value on what others say (and do). I hope it won't diminish things for you the next time we meet...but, winning and losing really doesn't mean much for me here. After 17+ years of doing this, I am most happy with a 5 or 10 minute suspension of disbelief...those come with a really good fight....win or lose. :)
Other folks motivations within the game rarely effect me. I would certainly never allow someone else's motivation to diminish my pleasure....poop on 'em...it's all about harvesting da dweebs. :D
In the end, it's all about <insert ID here>'s entertainment. :rock
BTW... :salute bakatcha!
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What is fun for one person is not necessarily seen the same way by someone else. There seems to be an effort to convince everyone to fight in one manner, the one that suits those loudest thoughout the forums. For me, being new, getting to, fighting, and trying to get home after you're no longer able to contribute to the fight is a large challenge. I take it that if you are bingo, winchester, or damaged you are supposed to hang around so that others can get credit for you. Why should players have to play only one way? Right now I do not use kill/death ratio as a measure of my progress (it would be, and is, ludicrous - in my opinion only), I have to use a sorty landed /death, capture. For others, it is capturing fields, or camping runways with Wirbles, or what have you. To each their own.
Who said you should play one way? And yeah lots of us stick around when we're shot up and keep fighting. It's a choice. It's the same as when someone up high spots a shot up bird or one that's ditching and kills it. I lost both engines the other night and was so low and slow that I survived the crash. I then told them I was sitting there. 1 guy augered going for my wreck and 3 guys took shots at it before I 'died'. It was quite silly :)
Lots of guys keep fighting when they're smoking or missing parts. Again, it's not real war, so why not take the challenge of seeing how long you can survive? Jeez, I don't remember the last fight I was in where I wasn't shot up and smoking. It's become a standard expectation for me. If I land intact, folks wonder what I've done wrong :)
It's all for the fun of it.
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Who said you should play one way? And yeah lots of us stick around when we're shot up and keep fighting. It's a choice. It's the same as when someone up high spots a shot up bird or one that's ditching and kills it. I lost both engines the other night and was so low and slow that I survived the crash. I then told them I was sitting there. 1 guy augered going for my wreck and 3 guys took shots at it before I 'died'. It was quite silly :)
Lots of guys keep fighting when they're smoking or missing parts. Again, it's not real war, so why not take the challenge of seeing how long you can survive? Jeez, I don't remember the last fight I was in where I wasn't shot up and smoking. It's become a standard expectation for me. If I land intact, folks wonder what I've done wrong :)
It's all for the fun of it.
It's all good. Just seems that some posts come across that way. I feel ya, have had several incidents like yours. :salute
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fun to me is what i had against you and oldman a couple nights ago in MW.......2-1 where u were in the flight of 2.......neither one of ya tried anything like ho'ing or naything like that....was just about co-alt too......i misjudged you though, as i thought you had extended far enough out to be no problem as your wingie was low enough on e to let me get him...it was a fun fight, and i DON'T care that i lost that fight....as for slowing down and flying straight when you lose the advantage...there's no fun in that...tyring to re-gain the advantage is still fun..or just making it harder for the other guy to get ya in my case....the problem lately though is all the really hi flyers......fights used to be 3k to 6k in MW......but c'mon.....i ALMOST didn't climb to the 14k that we met at because the fight at the base was on the deck.....but i did anyway, and there, lo and behold are a pair of hurri2's up there with me....had i only gone in at the originally planned 5k, i'd have never made it to any fight....and there were a BUNCH higher than 14k.....some over 20k. why? even the bombers don't normally fly that high in there....i mean sometimes when i wanna relax, i climb out from a rearward base and listne to the drone of the engines, and read the 200 for amusement....and lately participate in the 200 comedy show.......but the guys that jump into the furballs, or the 3-1's with a disadvantage, i think truely don't care, as lone as they have fun...where as the guys at 15-20k, bnz'ing......well......they obviously do care, otherwise they'd join in the melee down on the deck.
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Cap1,
Sorry about a late reply.
<S> :salute
oldman22 and myself wing together very often. We have a blast and work extremely well together.
Also when NB is a rook I enjoy flying his wing as well.
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Hey Lat, Thats what the DA is for.
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Cap1,
Sorry about a late reply.
<S> :salute
oldman22 and myself wing together very often. We have a blast and work extremely well together.
Also when NB is a rook I enjoy flying his wing as well.
well, i think i may need to start changing countries, and winging with you guys when i'm(that is if you'll have me) so i can learn somehting.....i think i've never shot you down....and only times i've ever gotten oldman was when i caught him already in a fight with someone else...i think the worst i've ever done to nb was to mess up his paintjob as he picked off my buffs one night....but i DO know that i could learn a LOT flying with you guys....and don't worry bout the late reply.......i only wanted you guys to know i htought that was a blast that night......and it taught me to keep better trakc of the cons i "think" are no factor :aok
:salute both of you
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well, i think i may need to start changing countries, and winging with you guys when i'm(that is if you'll have me) so i can learn something.....
Cap...
Over the years, the some of the best friends I've made were opponents. If your squaddies are ok guys, they won't grief you too much when you fly against them. Truth be known, many of my favorite fights were against squadmates. :devil
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Hey Lat, Thats what the DA is for.
Everytime I go to the DA I'm usually either on the side with fewest people and have to end up fighting 6 guys at once every sortie, or I'm on the side with the most people there is a 4-1 advantage on that side and I never get a decent fight in. To me it feels like the DA is just turning into a smaller version of the MA.
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well, i think i may need to start changing countries, and winging with you guys when i'm(that is if you'll have me) so i can learn somehting.....i think i've never shot you down....and only times i've ever gotten oldman was when i caught him already in a fight with someone else...i think the worst i've ever done to nb was to mess up his paintjob as he picked off my buffs one night....but i DO know that i could learn a LOT flying with you guys....and don't worry bout the late reply.......i only wanted you guys to know i htought that was a blast that night......and it taught me to keep better trakc of the cons i "think" are no factor :aok
:salute both of you
Anytime Sir.....
Look us up, your more than welcome to join in.
Also anytime you see us on and you want to go DA or TA just PM.
Anything we can do to help ya out.
Are you CAP1 in game as well?
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Anytime Sir.....
Look us up, your more than welcome to join in.
Also anytime you see us on and you want to go DA or TA just PM.
Anything we can do to help ya out.
Are you CAP1 in game as well?
nosir....ingame, i'm 1LTCAP(you probably saw me stoking the flame a couple nights ago on 200, as i think i had a certian someone who doesn't like dying going :D)
i shall though,,,,,i don't think i'll have time to be on before sunday though.....slim chance of being on tonight(friday)i hope.
thanks!
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DA is for 1 on 1's
MA anything goes.
Thats how it is, I feel your pain :)
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Fun is sometimes difficult to find, but it's out there still. :cool:
I had a run in with MtnMan this past weekend, and I must say, he's a good stick.
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Well the other day a base of ours was being furballed. I upped a P40 and got 4 kills from BnZers running out of speed attempting to get too many kills in one pass :rock To me that was a fun fight as I am still a newb. Im not sure what one means by a fun fight. Every time I get with someone who wants a fun fight they are usually so much better than me, all I do is die. So not too much fun. Maybe the BnZrs etc are newbs tired of getting their butts handed to them?
I dont think of your post as a :cry at all. I think you have a great point.
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DA is for 1 on 1's
MA anything goes.
Thats how it is, I feel your pain :)
Disagree, plenty of good 1v1 to be had in the MA, you just need to know where and who to hunt.
DA is like going to the range. Fun to go shooting, but a staged,predictable environment with rules where you can practice with no effect.
MA is for stalking and killing in a completely unpredictable environment.
<S>...-Gixer
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Well the other day a base of ours was being furballed. I upped a P40 and got 4 kills from BnZers running out of speed attempting to get too many kills in one pass :rock To me that was a fun fight as I am still a newb. Im not sure what one means by a fun fight. Every time I get with someone who wants a fun fight they are usually so much better than me, all I do is die. So not too much fun. Maybe the BnZrs etc are newbs tired of getting their butts handed to them?
I dont think of your post as a :cry at all. I think you have a great point.
A FEW PROBABLY ARE, but there's more than a few veterans of the sim that do this too......some to pad their egos, and some to gain immersion into the survival of the fights, as the real aces did in ww2....
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Disagree, plenty of good 1v1 to be had in the MA, you just need to know where and who to hunt.
DA is like going to the range. Fun to go shooting, but a staged,predictable environment with rules where you can practice with no effect.
MA is for stalking and killing in a completely unpredictable environment.
<S>...-Gixer
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ok..the majority of the time, IF i find someone that'll actually fight 1-1(unlke the running FW the other night, or the running mossie last week) we get to turning and burning, and next thing we know, there's a bunch either from my side, or from his side comming in supersonic to kill ONE lous aircraft. it's like they're racing to see who cvan steal the kill first.(i think it'd be fun to turn off killshooter for this, as there's a few i'd just open up on for getting in the way of a good fight..as im sure quite a few of you would too)
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it's like they're racing to see who cvan steal the kill first.(i think it'd be fun to turn off killshooter for this, as there's a few i'd just open up on for getting in the way of a good fight..as im sure quite a few of you would too)
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If there is one con that has several on him chances are he is probably a noob and not worth the E and time in the first place, so why bother with him? Let the newbies and score tards on your side take him down while you head out to find bigger prey.
As for killshooter.. Get in close,take your time and take the shot. Killshooter isn't a issue.
<S>...-Gixer
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If there is one con that has several on him chances are he is probably a noob and not worth the E and time in the first place, so why bother with him? Let the newbies and score tards on your side take him down while you head out to find bigger prey.
As for killshooter.. Get in close,take your time and take the shot. Killshooter isn't a issue.
<S>...-Gixer
hey,
i think you missed my point.....i don't drop into the 5 vs 1 unless the 1 is a friendly. i meant that I'M the one in a 1-1 or a 1-2, and next i know theres a bunch of cons racing in fast enough to outrun a blackbird...sometimes it's friendlies......which i guess is better thanif it were badguys.....but sometimes it's badguys too........either way, they could've gone somewhere else and found their fight...me...if the fight's down there at 1 or 2k alt, and i'm at 5 or 6, a bunch of friendlies n the poor lone badguy.......i keep going, as it's a waste of my time....
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