Aces High Bulletin Board
General Forums => Aces High General Discussion => Topic started by: MajIssue on June 21, 2008, 01:11:37 PM
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A relic!
HTC PLEASE fix this.
Aces High is (IMHO) the best MMOG on earth, BUT, the arena cap system is the worst (with the map rotation system a close second) aspect of the game.
For example:
10AM PDT on a Saturday Orange 271/100 OZKansas
Blue 97/150 small map
Please spare us the blather about the server load. If HTC would invest in servers that were up to the task, this issue would not exist. It seems ironic that in order to play and enjoy this game with anything close to it's full potential, we players need to have an up to date computer, but HTC is apparently running servers that were new during the Reagan administration! There is a reason that one arena is full and one is not! You guys at HTC are smart. It doesn't take a Doctorate Degree to figure it out. We have all read the "explanations" ad nauseum, and it boils down to the fact that HTC has a larger subscriber base than it's current hardware is capable of handling reliably.
By restricting access you anger and annoy players that want to fly with their friends or squaddies and/or are looking for the advertised experience of Aces High. With the current cap/map system HTC should change their advertising to:
Fly with 10 to 20 other players on whatever obsolete and bug ridden map we dictate. You will be forbidden to play where you want! Subscribe to Aces high NOW!!!
This "truth in advertising" approach might help to avoid pesky future class action litigation by disgruntled subscribers and their ACLU stooge pals. :rofl
Suggestion: Look at what is getting the most players and give the players a REASON to go into the other arena!
Perkies are free (i.e. they cost HTC nothing)... maybe make the perk point multiplier 50 (for example) in the least populated arena, or make perk rides ridiculously cheap in the least populated arena... Who wouldn't jump at the chance to zoom around in a ME262 for 10 perk points?
Maybe we should all go to Ft. Worth, put on a dirty field jacket and hang out on a corner with a sign that reads:
NEED NEW SERVERS FOR HTC.
ANYTHING WILL HELP.
GOD BLESS
:rolleyes: :rolleyes: :rolleyes:
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Please spare us the blather about the server load. If HTC would invest in servers that were up to the task, this issue would not exist.
:rolleyes: :rolleyes: :rolleyes:
HTC never said it's about the server load. Or do you really think the arena caps are reduced because the server suddenly can't cope with 200 players anymore??
I do not like that caps thing at all, but your rant is so wrong on many levels.
in
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The servers aren't an issue. I've seen over 500 on the Titanic Tuesday map alone with no problems. I would however like to see the caps done away with altogether.
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HTC never said it's about the server load. Or do you really think the arena caps are reduced because the server suddenly can't cope with 200 players anymore??
I do not like that caps thing at all, but your rant is so wrong on many levels.
in
Please correct me then Lusche... What is the reason that the caps go from 347/400 to 347/200 in an instant? And why are there a rash of server induced disco's within the last month? Is it a good business model to restrict subscribers from playing with their friends? Does that make them happy or something else. You seem to know allot about the inner working of HTC. Please enlighten us (the unwashed masses). Don't get me wrong... I am a loyal subscriber. But I do, however, think that there are areas that can be improved.
but your rant is so wrong on many levels.
Not I disagree... but your rant is wrong?
Having an opinion and expressing it it WRONG? What socialist paradise do you inhabit? You might want to amend that to something like: I disagree with your argument for the following reasons...
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Please correct me then Lusche... What is the reason that the caps go from 347/400 to 347/200 in an instant?
For gameplay reasons - to balance the numbers between the arenas as player numbers go up. It's been discussed a thousand times before. For more information about caps, see HELP section of this website.
And why are there a rash of server induced disco's within the last month?
Question: How do you know they are server induced? You don't, unless the whole arena get's disconnected at once. And don't easily say "My connection is fine" One single bad knot along the path can easily cause a DISCO.
I had only 1 DISCO in over 100 h total game time this moths.. I'd hardly call that a rash of disco's
Not I disagree... but your rant is wrong?
Having an opinion and expressing it it WRONG? What socialist paradise do you inhabit? You might want to amend that to something like: I disagree with your argument for the following reasons...
"Fly with 10 to 20 other players on whatever obsolete and bug ridden map we dictate. You will be forbidden to play where you want! Subscribe to Aces high NOW!!!" Yea, clearly only just "expressing an opionion", no rant at all :rofl
Actually, when you began with "Please spare us the blather about the server load" the ranting started.
You clearly had your facts wrong and ignored all the previous discussions and info about arena caps that's out there.
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It seems that LW Orange is the most popular and the hardest to get into during prime time. It really sucks to have go to LW Blue as a consolation when Orange is full. The only thing that really goes on in Blue is chirping crickets and rouge sheep. I would like to suggest that the area caps be removed and let the masses decide which arena they would like to play in.
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There has been so much posted about the arena caps that it fills multiple threads. It's nothing to do with server capacity, although the clueless always insist that it is.
Try searching for it.
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Can someone explain to me again why they split the arenas? I seemed to have lost the post. It seems that running 1 big server would be cheaper than running 4 small servers. Just my opinion.
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Rash of discos? I haven't had a disco for months. You may want to check your connection :aok
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why are there caps anyway? I never understood that. The caps don't really bug me, but I'm just wondering. :salute
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Can someone explain to me again why they split the arenas? I seemed to have lost the post. It seems that running 1 big server would be cheaper than running 4 small servers. Just my opinion.
Check this thread out ... http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/index.php/topic,187226.msg2168845.html#msg2168845
From Pyro's post ...
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I'm going to shut down the first thread due to its size and continue here. I'll start off with a FAQ of sorts on some things that were brought up in the original thread. Keep it civil please.
Why did you make this change?
We made this change because it will allow us to support an unlimited amount of players in a much healthier online environment that gives us better long-term growth. The single MA has grown to the point of being unhealthy. This is not a subjective evaluation, it is quantifiable and they are numbers that we look at every day. It's obvious that we simply cannot keep pumping more players into a single arena without hitting a stagnation point.
Why are you doing this now?
There's a convergence of factors such as current arena health, player mass, time of year and a couple of things in the pipeline that we believe will provide an influx of players. Taken together, we believe this is the best time to make this transition.
Is this being done for technical reasons?
No. While some people on lower end machines may see some performance benefit, it's not for technical reasons that the change is being made.
This is going to fracture the community.
We disagree. Communities grow and healthy growth requires structure. Just packing in as many people as possible creates a slum, not a community. We now have multiple neighborhoods in our community, but they are all connected.
The caps need to be adjusted.
The cap numbers as well as the numbers of arenas will undergo adjustment as needed. During the transition, we feel its important not to make them too large in order to overcome habit and herding behavior. Things will change as we move through the transition period and people begin to regain their comfort level.
We need better tools to find or communicate with people across the different arenas.
We agree. We have some host side changes that will be coming out shortly that will facilitate cross arena communication and hooking up with your squad mates and we'll continue to develop more things that will help in this area.
Are you crazy?
No, we are rational and unemotional about this. We don't undertake a major change because we're masochists; we make the change because we believe that it is ultimately what's best for the game.
Why didn't you take a poll or announce it earlier?
It wouldn't be useful to us for this change. We know it's going to be controversial. The real test is not whether people think they're going to like it or dislike it, it's what happens after we make the transition and things are settled. I didn't like beer the first time I tried it but I've grown quite fond of it since then. The transition is the worst part and we have no interest in dragging that out opening up a conflict of speculation before it even starts. We ultimately have to do what we think is best for the game.
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Outstanding Slapshot! Thank you sir :aok :salute
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I really didn't care for the caps when they were 1st introduced, but I got used to them.
I really don't mind waiting to get into my arena of choice, its not that big a deal.
If I can't get in for an extended period of time,I simply shut the game off and re-introduce myself to my family.
But i find it's very very rare that I have to wait more than 10 or 15 minutes to get into an overloaded arena.
And you can kill alot of strat porkers and sneaky base takers in a less populated arena.
Its all fun.
If not, you should probably find another hobby that doesn't upset you so much.
Patiently yours,
Boner
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If I can't get in for an extended period of time,I simply shut the game off and re-introduce myself to my family.
Its all fun.
If not, you should probably find another hobby that doesn't upset you so much.
Patiently yours,
Boner
Very well stated and I agree. If it's not fun, do something else that is. Just like any other business, it is absolutely impossible to please everyone.
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Sorry, I don't understand the issue, MajIssue; the game has expanded, and the Arena CAP is nothing new.
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Oh look, another arena limits thread, cool, but this one has really huge letters.
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Some folks simply aren't happy unless they are complaining about something. :frown:
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MajTissue has 46 disco's in the last three tours.
Where do you live? Antarctica?
It isn't the servers. It's your tin cans and string internet connection.
Dump your ISP and get something 21st century.
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I don't think many liked or like the arena caps. I am one of them.
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The servers aren't an issue. I've seen over 500 on the Titanic Tuesday map alone with no problems. I would however like to see the caps done away with altogether.
I've seen over 700 3 or 4 years ago in AH1. Why the cap on the two servers? What was wrong with having Titanic Tuesday every single day of the week in the first place? Everyone was having a good time on FesterMA and Pizza until someone with a "better" idea came along and ruined all of the hording fun.
HTC:
I would like my SMALL maps back
I would like my original Main Arena back. Unless I have two accounts and 4 hands, I don't need 2 Main Arenas.
If you choose to have 2 Main Arenas, get rid of the constantly updating limiters and let people fly where they want to fly.
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If you choose to have 2 Main Arenas, get rid of the constantly updating limiters and let people fly where they want to fly.
This I have to agree with, the limiters tend to limit squads from flying together from time to time :(
Having a different map in each arena would help to get people to migrate to a different arena without the need for limiters. :rolleyes:
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Its already proven that a single arena doesn't work any more, that is why they only let it happen one night a week (the slowest night of the week btw) Servers are NOT the problem, the ones they use right now don't even run at 10% capacity (posted by Skuzzy, search for it).
Majissue, and Mak, whats the "better idea"? Remember a single arena has been proven unhealthy. What would you do if it was your business? Its not just a game to HTC, its a business, and a livelyhood. What would you do?
.......... I mean besides complain. :D
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what do you guys mean by unhealthy?
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what do you guys mean by unhealthy?
Not conducive to retaining players. The MA we had was, generally, a social cesspool.
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As much as i think this thread is doomed i have to agree he has a point. It really gets frustrating from a squad stand point to come on to fly your squad night and your squad is in blue but due to the arena caps you can only go to orange or to MW. After 2 hours of waiting to try to get in to fly with your squad you tend to give up in total frustration. The suggestion that your squad switch to that arena doesn't wash as some of the squads are large enough that this is impractical to do just so one player can join in.
Unfortunately i don't have the solution, but i really don't think it's a server size issue, but more of an issue with the amount of info that can be transferred over the net back and forth with that many people on. I know titanic tuesdays IMO are horrible for lag/warpage and such just due to the amount of people and info being shuttled back and forth across the ether net.
I just look on the bright side though. At least i'm not on dial-up anymore. :D
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"The MA we had was, generally, a social cesspool."
Too late, they have escaped and are now breeding prodigously :lol
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MajTissue has 46 disco's in the last three tours.
Where do you live? Antarctica?
It isn't the servers. It's your tin cans and string internet connection.
Dump your ISP and get something 21st century.
Easy on this request, bud. I for instance don't earn enough to afford satellite internet, which I hear sucks for this game anyway. I'm stuck with dial-up and waiting for my "soda-straw" outfit to string the last half-mile of DSL cable to my location. Be careful when you just jump in there asking for someone to buy something better.
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"The MA we had was, generally, a social cesspool."
I don't think the size of the MA had anything to with it's health. The blame is to be put solely on the people in it.
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As much as i think this thread is doomed i have to agree he has a point. It really gets frustrating from a squad stand point to come on to fly your squad night and your squad is in blue but due to the arena caps you can only go to orange or to MW. After 2 hours of waiting to try to get in to fly with your squad you tend to give up in total frustration. The suggestion that your squad switch to that arena doesn't wash as some of the squads are large enough that this is impractical to do just so one player can join in.
Unfortunately i don't have the solution, but i really don't think it's a server size issue, but more of an issue with the amount of info that can be transferred over the net back and forth with that many people on. I know titanic tuesdays IMO are horrible for lag/warpage and such just due to the amount of people and info being shuttled back and forth across the ether net.
I just look on the bright side though. At least i'm not on dial-up anymore. :D
I always thought that the point of "squad ops" was to fly together as a squad. I know the squad I was in the longest (444th Air Mafia) was very tight. If training was called for on ops night we all went to the training area, or dueling arena for squad KOTH. The point was to fly TOGETHER. Even these days, when SAPP gets together rule of thumb is the arena without the cap, lowest populated country. Again, the idea is to fly TOGETHER.
The caps are a problem if you make them a problem.
It looks to me that they are running 3 servers.
Early, Mid, Late War Orange Main Arena Server Address: 206.16.60.39
Axis vs Allies, Training, Dueling, Late War Blue: 206.16.60.41
Special Events: 206.16.60.38
So it doesn't look like its a technical issue.
The hordes were rampant in the old "1 arena" era, now they are just annoying. With the school kids here the only way they know how to play an on line game is like a first person shooter. Get as big a gang as you can and roll through the areas as fast as you can respawning in the middle of a fight dieing hundreds of times an hour. This breeds hordes. If HTC went back to a single arena that is all you would have. The hard core WWII enthusiast would leave in droves, and after the "summer fun" the kiddies would leave and HTC would have 12 people flying, not really good for business.
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Arena cap one of the reason I've started play less and less
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Easy on this request, bud. I for instance don't earn enough to afford satellite internet, which I hear sucks for this game anyway. I'm stuck with dial-up and waiting for my "soda-straw" outfit to string the last half-mile of DSL cable to my location. Be careful when you just jump in there asking for someone to buy something better.
I'm not going to go easy on anyone that demands that HTC "fix" things when the problem isn't with HTC but someones ISP that can't stay online for more than five minutes.
Change ISP's, play more, disco less and quit starting stupid threads about how it's all HTC's fault.
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Its already proven that a single arena doesn't work any more, that is why they only let it happen one night a week (the slowest night of the week btw) Servers are NOT the problem, the ones they use right now don't even run at 10% capacity (posted by Skuzzy, search for it).
Majissue, and Mak, whats the "better idea"? Remember a single arena has been proven unhealthy. What would you do if it was your business? Its not just a game to HTC, its a business, and a livelyhood. What would you do?
.......... I mean besides complain. :D
I don't believe I am understanding. I never had a problem with a single main arena back in the day. Was it at times a spamming location by newbies and squeakers? Yes, but there is a mute button for that. Secondly, I don't understand what you mean by "proven." Was there a certain test that was conducted that I do not know about? I know I've been an off and on player since 2003, but I usually kinda keep up with things. I've never heard of the original Main Arena being "unhealthy" or "proven" that it doesn't even work. I never noticed any difference in client or server lag on Titanic Tuesdays with 700 players in. I don't see what was so bad.
So let's say I give in with this whole 2 Main Arenas thing. Let's take off the limiters and let squads and individuals fly where they choose. Also, let's get some new maps up, SMALL ones. Like I have said before, if at times there are more country bases than the # of players in that country... that map shouldn't be running. Is that extreme? Probably, but I think a lot of people are tired of trying to fly all over the place just trying to keep track where their bases are being lost, and which ones are being won. It's not even a game anymore. Many times I don't even see an effort on some parts because 5 bases does not affect the war situation. Well, should it? I believe 5 bases should affect the war situation to a great degree, but the problem with these large maps is that 1, 2 or 5 bases is not a concern to hardly anyone anymore.
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OK, I get the whole idea about the arena cesspool thing, I don't completely agree but I get the idea. So let's say for argument sake, it's what needs to happen to maintain a healthy environment. Do we have to split the arenas exactly in half to accomplish this idea? Whats next? 3, 4, 5 main arenas all keeping us below your standard for healthy play? What is that number anyway?
I for one would be content to have arena caps starting at 400 and rotating maps in BOTH arenas. I don't believe a reasonable argument can be made to such a request. Having different maps gives us not only a fresh place to play but different strategies to work with. You will never make everyone happy but I would like to know why this request would be contradictory to a healthy environment or contribute to the cesspool idea given the numbers that are playing every night anyway.
Keeping the same map in the larger arena for the sake of boring players to the point of going to another arena just isn't fair to us IMO. I make that statement because it is understood that we don't have a server problem so I think it's obvious why we are stuck with TT in the larger arena for weeks on end?
I believe that any consideration to this idea (given that HTC is going to govern player numbers in the arenas) would be appreciated by the majority of players and a possible compromise for squads. But hey, it's just my opinion.
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I don't believe I am understanding. I never had a problem with a single main arena back in the day. Was it at times a spamming location by newbies and squeakers? Yes, but there is a mute button for that. Secondly, I don't understand what you mean by "proven." Was there a certain test that was conducted that I do not know about? I know I've been an off and on player since 2003, but I usually kinda keep up with things. I've never heard of the original Main Arena being "unhealthy" or "proven" that it doesn't even work. I never noticed any difference in client or server lag on Titanic Tuesdays with 700 players in. I don't see what was so bad.
It was proven by HT. His subscription numbers and population numbers kept decreasing, NOT a good way to run a business, so we have multiple arenas.
OK, I get the whole idea about the arena cesspool thing, I don't completely agree but I get the idea. So let's say for argument sake, it's what needs to happen to maintain a healthy environment. Do we have to split the arenas exactly in half to accomplish this idea? Whats next? 3, 4, 5 main arenas all keeping us below your standard for healthy play? What is that number anyway?
Yes they do, other wise they get more complaints. OK, for the sake of argument, caps are set to 400 in each arena. Most people are going to go to the most populated arena...more people, more targets :D Each night as you log on the game population is around 450-500 people. One arena is full at 400, the other is at 50-100. You get to log in to the smaller arena and fly against 16-33 enemy.... going to be lots of fights there !
They did try it that way when they first split the arenas, and the out cry's were ridiculous. So they made the auto adjusting cap system. Is it perfect, no, but its as good as its going to get.... unless you have a better idea?
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Please correct me then Lusche... What is the reason that the caps go from 347/400 to 347/200 in an instant? And why are there a rash of server induced disco's within the last month? Is it a good business model to restrict subscribers from playing with their friends? Does that make them happy or something else. You seem to know allot about the inner working of HTC. Please enlighten us (the unwashed masses). Don't get me wrong... I am a loyal subscriber. But I do, however, think that there are areas that can be improved.
Not I disagree... but your rant is wrong?
Having an opinion and expressing it it WRONG? What socialist paradise do you inhabit? You might want to amend that to something like: I disagree with your argument for the following reasons...
I think the explanation for the arena caps was to even out the sides and prevent hoarding. Even so, I think that is a problem to be worked out by the community. A lot of people would just change sides when one side had a numbers advantage over another. I think that this is more acceptable than the current procedure.
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MajTissue has 46 disco's in the last three tours.
Where do you live? Antarctica?
It isn't the servers. It's your tin cans and string internet connection.
Dump your ISP and get something 21st century.
Your point is valid... I HAVE had more disco's in the last two+ tours... I have a decent DSL connection and I live in a major city in N. California.
You felt that calling names would add weight to your argument? I don't see how...
My original post was meant to make a point with a little humor (granted, my sense of humor is somewhat biting and sarcastic, but it is what it is). The post was made (in frustration) after waiting 45 minutes to get into LW Orange on a Saturday Morning at 10AM Pacific Time, which would be European "Prime Time" I also made suggestions on an alternative, which the flamers in the communities have ignored because I "gored their sacred cow".
Comon guys you have to admit that the homeless sign gag was funny!!! :D
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but its as good as its going to get.... unless you have a better idea?
I DID suggest an alternative... You will catch more bees with honey than a 2x4. I suggested a "carrot" (giving the players a benefit to playing in the underpopulated arena) rather than a "stick" (the Stalinist dictitorial approach we now use for capping arenas).
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Yeah I wanted to fly this morning PDX time, Primetime Euro time when I used to play AH1. orange had 147/100
:confused:? Blue had 44/100. I remember AH1s servers circa 2002 had around 130+ guys on evening euro times why not combine those 2. Who wants to fly 16-18-12 on a large map?
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Who wants to fly 16-18-12 on any map? Size has nothing to do with it.
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(the Stalinist dictitorial approach we now use for capping arenas).
Talk about not understanding the concept of carrot and stick....sheeesh. :rolleyes:
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I don't agree or disagree with arena caps, but I think it's too strong a restriction on a problem that isn't really that bad. I've been playing this game for a long time, I remember Ah1 before bomber formations, and the Main Arena never turned into a 'social cesspool', if anything, it's worse now with channel 200.
I personally think it's time for HTC to put serious effort on another game type for fly. AvA is too restricting for the mass casual player that likes the counterstrike doctrine, and frankly, the our MA game now is getting rather old. We need something in between the two, but it will take a very creative mind to come up with something worthy.
Just my two cents, I like forums...
-Olskoolb
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I DID suggest an alternative... You will catch more bees with honey than a 2x4. I suggested a "carrot" (giving the players a benefit to playing in the underpopulated arena) rather than a "stick" (the Stalinist dictitorial approach we now use for capping arenas).
I don't know about everyone else, but I have thousands of perks. Any half decent player can build up a perk bank pretty quick. I'd be surprised if less than 10% of the active population had under 1000. I don't think perks are the answer, but what do I know.
Until someone can come up with a better way to keep the population in both of the LW arenas some what even as they grow and shrink we are going to have caps.
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Talk about not understanding the concept of carrot and stick....sheeesh. :rolleyes:
NoBaddy, I don't see what's not to understand? It seems clear enough to me...
Please allow me to expand... maybe you will gain some insight into the point I was trying to make in my original (and in subsequent) post(s)
Carrot: Giving players a benefit like reduced cost for perk rides or a perk point multiplier that is ridiculously high... A REASON to WANT to go into the underpopulated arena.
Stick: The current system of FORBIDDING players to log in to the arena of their choice.
The Stalininst reference was apt. For example, if you wanted to purchase a car in the old Soviet Union, you were RESTRICTED to buying a Volga or Moskivitch. {our underpopulated arena} You also had to wait 5-10 years for delivery and were FORBIDDEN from buying the BMW or Mercedes Benz {the arena that your squad is flying in} that you REALLY wanted.
Seem a little clearer now?
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NoBaddy, I don't see what's not to understand? It seems clear enough to me...
Please allow me to expand... maybe you will gain some insight into the point I was trying to make in my original (and in subsequent) post(s)
Carrot: Giving players a benefit like reduced cost for perk rides or a perk point multiplier that is ridiculously high... A REASON to WANT to go into the underpopulated arena.
Stick: The current system of FORBIDDING players to log in to the arena of their choice.
The Stalininst reference was apt. For example, if you wanted to purchase a car in the old Soviet Union, you were RESTRICTED to buying a Volga or Moskivitch. {our underpopulated arena} You also had to wait 5-10 years for delivery and were FORBIDDEN from buying the BMW or Mercedes Benz {the arena that your squad is flying in} that you REALLY wanted.
Seem a little clearer now?
There is no "carrot" when it comes to balancing the population between 2 arenas ... and there shouldn't be.
HTC has defined population parameters between 2 arenas that, in theory, will cause the population between the 2 arenas to grow in parallel.
Now, you want to induce a "carrot" so that those who want to get into the "over populated" arena will feel better going into the "under populated" arena.
You are missing an important aspect tho ... each arena is it's own entity with it's own internal population dynamics ... not connected to the other arena's internal population dynamics.
Lets look at it this way and don't nit pick my numbers ... they are just being used as an illustration.
Orange is locked out with ... 450/250
Blue is ... 150/180
Now the guys in Blue are fighting their own internal battle against each other and could care less what is transpiring in the Orange arena, after all, some do make the Blue arena their "home" arena.
Now, the Blue has 25 Bish, 100 Knights, 25 Rooks ...
With your idea, because Orange is locked out ... magically, perks rides are ridiculously low and perk multipliers are ridiculously high for ALL in that arena.
How is that fair for those fighting their own "war" within the Blue arena ? ... Why, because Orange is locked out, should the dynamics of the fight that is going on in the Blue arena (ENY) be ignored, to appease those who can't get into the Orange arena ?
If people would get beyond the ... "it's all about me" ... and start to think about the "whole" in regards to this topic ... then there would a lot less angst and the need to post on this topic.
The numerical balancing of the arenas, along with ENY within an arena, have been created with the "whole" in mind, to make the game more enjoyable for the "whole", knowing that it will never satisfy the total "whole", because some will always think ... "it's all about me" ... no matter what solution is implemented.
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BRING BACK THE MA !
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in before the lock? :confused:
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NoBaddy, I don't see what's not to understand? It seems clear enough to me...
Please allow me to expand... maybe you will gain some insight into the point I was trying to make in my original (and in subsequent) post(s)
Carrot: Giving players a benefit like reduced cost for perk rides or a perk point multiplier that is ridiculously high... A REASON to WANT to go into the underpopulated arena.
Stick: The current system of FORBIDDING players to log in to the arena of their choice.
The Stalininst reference was apt. For example, if you wanted to purchase a car in the old Soviet Union, you were RESTRICTED to buying a Volga or Moskivitch. {our underpopulated arena} You also had to wait 5-10 years for delivery and were FORBIDDEN from buying the BMW or Mercedes Benz {the arena that your squad is flying in} that you REALLY wanted.
Seem a little clearer now?
Hmm, clearer for me? I never had a problem understanding what you were saying. You obviously can't say the same. I quoted a specific portion of your rant because in that portion, you show that you have no understanding of the best way to deal with HTC. Yes, compare HT to a murderous dictator. That is one hellova carrot you are trying to beat him over the head with. :rolleyes:
As for your suggestion that perk points be used to encourage arena balancing....why would anyone think this would work? It failed to work when it was previously tried as a way to encourage people to alter their behavior.
Now, (and trust me on this) I am just as capable at playing the flaming arrow game as you are.... We can continue and get this thread locked or you can grow a bit thicker skin and something positive might come of this thread.
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PROBLEM: CAPS ON SERVERS
I have notice that more show up on large maps with some CV's (as a average). This allows more players to do bombing, Carrier forces, GV,furball & fighter missions.
I have notice the impact of the maps being more favored, then just the server cap causing all the bad feelings to HTC.
I realize that the server problem and the caps was suppose to change this. But We are forgeting the favoritism towards larger maps or the ones you like and dislike. I have notice this more than the server cap to be the situation at times.
I do agree that the cap should stop at a minimum of 300. But will it stop people from going to a more favorable map. Probably not. But it might ease the bad taste towards HTC.
SOLUTION: MAP CHOICE AND ADD VAREITY
When you have a map that players don't like. Then the server cap keeps you going back to the disliked map. Then people get pissed off. This is why everyone tends to go to the other map or changes sides. What should be done is after 2 nights & 1 day of monitoring a map with less than a 210 player average be switched to a better map.
But we should have the ability to vote on some of these maps.
I would like to see some of the FSO and Axis & Ally maps put in the map cycle.
I tend to like the different runways and fields. These maps tend to be more towards WWII looks and feel.
Also add some realism in the maps. Natural effects: wind, rain, fog, thunderstorms with lighting effects, and night time.
Players and Groups / Squads.
Another thing to do is to do like some of the other squads are doing. Switching country sides. Our group is also considering this option. We tend to look at the late war maps and go to the least populated map.
Just some food for thought. - GGhost
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Arena cap one of the reason I've started play less and less
Same here, we went from 32 members playing on squad nights (Thursdays) to 2 to 4 members now. We have titanic tuesdays and for that, I am EXTREMELY grateful - BUT- when we have problems flying together, we have to log off... nobody wants to play in an empty arena... the way the caps are triggered now, it kills off the populated arena if you are booted while playing you cannot get in, so the choice really is just log off. The 'healthy arena' theory has been extremely unhealthy for our squad which has been together 10 years and each and every member attributes this DIRECTLY to this issue when the decision was made to do this.
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PROBLEM: CAPS ON SERVERS
I have notice that more show up on large maps with some CV's (as a average). This allows more players to do bombing, Carrier forces, GV,furball & fighter missions.
I have notice the impact of the maps being more favored, then just the server cap causing all the bad feelings to HTC.
I realize that the server problem There is no problem with the servers. The servers are new, and even on a busy night ...close to 1000 logged in... it still is not hitting 10% of its capacity.and the caps was suppose to change this. But We are forgeting the favoritism towards larger maps or the ones you like and dislike. I have notice this more than the server cap to be the situation at times.
I do agree that the cap should stop at a minimum of 300. But will it stop people from going to a more favorable map. Probably not. But it might ease the bad taste towards HTC.
SOLUTION: MAP CHOICE AND ADD VAREITY
When you have a map that players don't like. Then the server cap keeps you going back to the disliked map.Map like and dislikes are very different from person to person. You and your squad may hate one map, and me and my squad love that map. Then people get pissed off. This is why everyone tends to go to the other map or changes sides.People change sides and maps because they are looking for a fight, be it in the air, or on the ground. What should be done is after 2 nights & 1 day of monitoring a map with less than a 210 player average be switched to a better map.I only fly nuights, prime time US. I very rarely see either of the LW arenas under 210, so much for the average.
But we should have the ability to vote on some of these maps.Ya thats all we need more "voting", the last one got us a bomber !
I would like to see some of the FSO and Axis & Ally maps put in the map cycle.Most of these maps are 2 sided. HTC has decided that 3 sides is best for this game, and so it will stay that way
I tend to like the different runways and fields. These maps tend to be more towards WWII looks and feel.
Also add some realism in the maps. Natural effects: wind, rain, fog, thunderstorms with lighting effects, and night time.With all the extra "eye candy" on those maps are neat should this be put into the main arenas it will cut about half of the people out of the game. I'd say only half of the people playing have computers good enough to run that kind of extra candy.
Players and Groups / Squads.
Another thing to do is to do like some of the other squads are doing. Switching country sides. Our group is also considering this option. We tend to look at the late war maps and go to the least populated map.
Just some food for thought. - GGhost Has been thought about, posted, hashed over, and in most cases rejected.
As a player, they are a number of things you can do to have fun. Say your squad moves to the under populated arena (only reason blue is the under populated arena is orange is listed above blue , thats it. When they first split the arenas everyone flew in EW untill they realised that that could choose a different one :rolleyes: ) Start a fight! it won't take long until they start defending, and then your having fun.
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Start a fight! it won't take long until they start defending, and then your having fun.
Worked for my squad yesterday. It started with 2 of us in the "underpopulated" arena picking a fight at a base that was defended by one con. After a short time there were 3 of them. As other squad mates logged in the fight grew on both sides. We had a blast there for hours.
I quickly forgot that I "wanted" to be in the other (full) arena.
*note: 71 Sqn. is composed of three actual squads, so lots of time .sr doesn't work for us from the lobby,
Sure at first we were wondering if our other buddies were all having a blast without us in the other arena.
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On a few occasions I've seen both LW arenas past their cap, unable to get into either one. It didn't last for more than a minute though.
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Uhhhh....Retire this dead horse pluuuueeeezz...
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This horse lives! What is wrong with talking about a real problem?
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(http://i198.photobucket.com/albums/aa252/Husky3D/deadhorse6.gif)(http://i198.photobucket.com/albums/aa252/Husky3D/Beating_a_Dead_Horse_FINAL.gif)(http://i198.photobucket.com/albums/aa252/Husky3D/horse.gif)
(http://i198.photobucket.com/albums/aa252/Husky3D/deadhorse2.gif)
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The caps need to be adjusted.
The cap numbers as well as the numbers of arenas will undergo adjustment as needed. During the transition, we feel its important not to make them too large in order to overcome habit and herding behavior. Things will change as we move through the transition period and people begin to regain their comfort level.
Too late...I'm an Orange junky!!!!
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It's not good to have 900 in one arena. This game is now big time! :rock
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There seems to be a bug or something with the caps. They'll show a ridiculously low #. I'll go into another arena or quit the game then reenter. Then they are at 400 or something thereabouts.
A bug?
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Not conducive to retaining players. The MA we had was, generally, a social cesspool.
So now instead of 1 cesspool, you have multiple cesspools to choose from :) .
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Not an issue with HTC servers. There is an issue for many on the servers in between.
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I don't know how this thread was resurected, but... I still feel that there has got to be a better way to balance sides. The current CAP/ENY system has become a constant source of angst (to me)... Last week, I had the choice of ENY 26 in one arena and being outnumbered 3-2 in the other (by one "country" not both). Either choice was a recipe for a less than stellar gaming experience. I thought about switching countries, but as a loyal Bishop, I just couldn't "pull the trigger" on a side switch.
I respectfully submit that if the CAPs were country based [where you can not log in to an arena where your country has a greated than 10% numerical advantage] rather than what we use now, both the side balancing and ENY issues could be a thing of the past
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I don't know how this thread was resurected, but... I still feel that there has got to be a better way to balance sides. The current CAP/ENY system has become a constant source of angst (to me)... Last week, I had the choice of ENY 26 in one arena and being outnumbered 3-2 in the other (by one "country" not both). Either choice was a recipe for a less than stellar gaming experience. I thought about switching countries, but as a loyal Bishop, I just couldn't "pull the trigger" on a side switch.
I respectfully submit that if the CAPs were country based [where you can not log in to an arena where your country has a greated than 10% numerical advantage] rather than what we use now, both the side balancing and ENY issues could be a thing of the past
Well start that squirrel running on the wheel in your head and come up with a new idea ! There very well may be a better way to do it, but of the hundreds of ideas so far, nothing is even close.
...oh and by being "a loyal Bishop" YOU ....not the caps.... have cut yourself out of two thirds of the other areas to play in the MAs. Your loss, as well as YOU being the one that adds to your own frustration.
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HTC have never found a good balance after the late war arena was split. :cry
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600 people on Titanic Tuesday this week.
I'm trying to find a mon-thurs day that has that many in any other single arena, but I can't.
Maybe someone should look at the desire for one big fight than several smaller, artifically limited ones...
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PUT IT BACK TO ONE MAP! AND ONE SERVER!
-BigBOBCH
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Well start that squirrel running on the wheel in your head and come up with a new idea ! There very well may be a better way to do it, but of the hundreds of ideas so far, nothing is even close.
...oh and by being "a loyal Bishop" YOU ....not the caps.... have cut yourself out of two thirds of the other areas to play in the MAs. Your loss, as well as YOU being the one that adds to your own frustration.
Thats the canned response to any suggestion a squad/person might be loyal to a country, at least come up with something original.
Why don't you realise that for whatever reason that country loyalty is important to some squads/people?
Most squads try all three countries, and for one or more reasons feel at home/comfortable with a certain one.
Until you grasp this elementary fact you'll never understand.
Haven't been on for a while but sounds like nothing has changed from when I was a daily 'flyer'.
Caps and ENY fluctuate wildly, both of which were predicted when the arena caps were brought in. (Due to people hopping between servers).
Sounds like it was frustrating then, and just as frustrating now.
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Thats the canned response to any suggestion a squad/person might be loyal to a country, at least come up with something original.
Why don't you realise that for whatever reason that country loyalty is important to some squads/people?
Most squads try all three countries, and for one or more reasons feel at home/comfortable with a certain one.
Until you grasp this elementary fact you'll never understand.
Haven't been on for a while but sounds like nothing has changed from when I was a daily 'flyer'.
Caps and ENY fluctuate wildly, both of which were predicted when the arena caps were brought in. (Due to people hopping between servers).
Sounds like it was frustrating then, and just as frustrating now.
ummmmm lets see if I "grasp this elementary fact" When I first started in Aces I was Bishop for over two years and in one squad. After I left I flew knights a bit and rooks a bit. While flying Knights I got invited to a rooks squad which I joined. I have flown with this squad for almost 2 years, and mostly as a rook. Do I understand "loyalty" I think I might. Do I switch sides, you bet! I have a lot of friends who still fly as bishop and I hop over there to wing up with them sometimes, or if I can find a good fight, I'll switch.
On the other hand, this is a game, the idea is to have fun. Why would you limit your options to have fun? Maybe my response is a "canned response", but did you even consider that the reason you see that response so much that it might be the right answer? You said you havn't been flying for a while, maybe due to the frustration brought about by your narrow mindedness forcing you to stick to one "side". I on the other hand still fly as often as I can, and I'm still pretty much having a good time.....still get really ticked off when I get cherry picked, but that another story :D
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Fugitive,
I like to fly with my squadmates, and we have agreed that we are a Bishop squad. I have, on occasion, gone over to the Knights and Rooks to wing up with an opponent, but have never fought against the Bishops. I like to fly with the guys in Bishland. If loyalty to ones friends is a bad thing in your world then I am indeed a BAD person in the Fugitive universe.
Instead of debating the merits of my proposal, you chose to rip me because of loyalty toward the group I prefer to fly with... Have you no shame sir?
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I agree with MajIssue on this post.
In particular the Saturday morning splits. 150 in orange, 75 in blue, and the caps in orange won't let you in. I can see the point, I guess, that the arena's need to be split. I think there should be a bottom number though, the example above is rediculous. I mean, perhaps when the arena gets to 300 or something, maybe then the splits can occur.
Another aggravation is the huge STALEMATE maps. They only last a week, because titanic tuesday resets. You can't really win a map anymore, not with caps and the week it lasts. It is hardly worth the bother really to play for captures anymore.
The game is pretty fun to go up and furball for a while I guess. The strategic fun of maps is completly lost now though imo.
Dunno, been playing about 7 years now...finding it a bit boring as of late.
Anyone tried that IL2 online game?
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caps are crap..they are one step forward two steps back.......I know Hitech knows more than I ..well just about everybody knows more than me (villiage Idiott)......Question has anyone noticed that Tuesdays have more or less bad gameplay then the other nights? You will have to define "gameplay" yourself..because I have never understood this universal construct.
<S> 999000
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Referred to as terrible tuesdays around here. TONIGHT WE HAVE A PLAN...............
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ummmmm lets see if I "grasp this elementary fact" When I first started in Aces I was Bishop for over two years and in one squad. After I left I flew knights a bit and rooks a bit. While flying Knights I got invited to a rooks squad which I joined. I have flown with this squad for almost 2 years, and mostly as a rook. Do I understand "loyalty" I think I might. Do I switch sides, you bet! I have a lot of friends who still fly as bishop and I hop over there to wing up with them sometimes, or if I can find a good fight, I'll switch.
On the other hand, this is a game, the idea is to have fun. Why would you limit your options to have fun? Maybe my response is a "canned response", but did you even consider that the reason you see that response so much that it might be the right answer? You said you havn't been flying for a while, maybe due to the frustration brought about by your narrow mindedness forcing you to stick to one "side". I on the other hand still fly as often as I can, and I'm still pretty much having a good time.....still get really ticked off when I get cherry picked, but that another story :D
Wasn't my narrow mindedness at all.
Each country has it's own distinct feel (played all three), and I think like minded players tend to stay with the country they feel most comfortable with.
As for the right answer - We will have to disagree. I have seen nothing on the forums that show it is any different now from when it was one big arena without caps.
Same old posts about hoards (although smaller, proportionatly about the same), same old posts about ganging, same old posts about running, same old posts about cherry picking. ONLY difference is it now happens across multiple arenas instead of one. Plus now you get posts about arena caps.
So if the one main arena was split because it was so unhealthy, what happens now there are multiple unhealthy arenas? Split them again? Lets go all the way and have 100's of arenas with a cap of 3, 1 for each country! Oops can't do that what if 2 gang up on one.
If anything the caps have caused more problems that they solved.
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If you can't enjoy AH for what it is and not how it should or shouldn't be played then your probably right in giving it up.
I can't take to the skies in multiplayer virtual combat in my Spitfire or Pony anywhere else so I'm stuck here.
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Fugitive,
I like to fly with my squadmates, and we have agreed that we are a Bishop squad. I have, on occasion, gone over to the Knights and Rooks to wing up with an opponent, but have never fought against the Bishops. I like to fly with the guys in Bishland. If loyalty to ones friends is a bad thing in your world then I am indeed a BAD person in the Fugitive universe.
Instead of debating the merits of my proposal, you chose to rip me because of loyalty toward the group I prefer to fly with... Have you no shame sir?
LOL !!! Its a game !! you mean to tell me you have never fought anyone in your squad? I'm not the best cartoon pilot in the world (but I do have fun trying to be), but after flying aginst my CO Twinboom a number of times I think I have gotten much better. Not to mention running into Delirious, CorkyJr or a number of other "HeadHunters". I enjoy flying with them, as well as against them, its always fun (except for the occasional cherry picks grrrr). So by being "loyal to ones friends" means not fighting them and having some fun, ya I'm much happier in my universe. I didn't try to "rip you", I just pointed out a few facts. Its the truth you have a problem with, not me.
.....snip
In particular the Saturday morning splits. 150 in orange, 75 in blue, and the caps in orange won't let you in. I can see the point, I guess, that the arena's need to be split. I think there should be a bottom number though, the example above is rediculous. I mean, perhaps when the arena gets to 300 or something, maybe then the splits can occur.
agreed, morning US time is a problem, but where would you draw the line? Use the above numbers you can't log in to orange, and blue only has 75 people. Say they make a hard cap of 225, and you log in at the same time with the same population. That means that you can't get into orange because it has hit its hard cap and now you get to fly in blue by yourself untill other log in. Yup, that sounds like a lot more fun than the way they have it now doesn't it? SO far, the way they have it set up is the best anyone has come up with. Is it perfect? nope, there will always be someone complaining about it.
Wasn't my narrow mindedness at all.
Each country has it's own distinct feel (played all three), and I think like minded players tend to stay with the country they feel most comfortable with.
As for the right answer - We will have to disagree. I have seen nothing on the forums that show it is any different now from when it was one big arena without caps.
Same old posts about hoards (although smaller, proportionatly about the same), same old posts about ganging, same old posts about running, same old posts about cherry picking. ONLY difference is it now happens across multiple arenas instead of one. Plus now you get posts about arena caps.
So if the one main arena was split because it was so unhealthy, what happens now there are multiple unhealthy arenas? Split them again? Lets go all the way and have 100's of arenas with a cap of 3, 1 for each country! Oops can't do that what if 2 gang up on one.
If anything the caps have caused more problems that they solved.
I agree with you on most of these, yes some people feel more comfortable on one team or another, but switching for an hour or two just to have some fun isn't going to stop the world from turning.
Ya maybe the arenas are still "unhealthy", but I think they are better, and its much easier to find a fight now a days than it was of the big hordes.
The only way to know for sure if splitting the arenas was good or not is to take a look at HTC subscription numbers. During the single arena days they were loosing bunches of people, and now a days he has bunches coming in, sounds like its fixed to me.
Ya I miss the old days where the single main arena had only a couple hundred people flying, there were missions that were put together that used strategy instead of brute force, furballs developed once or twice a night and people didn't grief them, Mindanao was the preferred map ...unless you were in the lower left... Things change, either you change with them, or you can sit in the corner and complain about what isn't right any more, or you can change with them. Me, life is too short to waste it pissin and moaning, I just have to continue having fun with what we have.
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LOL !!! Its a game !! you mean to tell me you have never fought anyone in your squad? I'm not the best cartoon pilot in the world (but I do have fun trying to be), but after flying aginst my CO Twinboom a number of times I think I have gotten much better. Not to mention running into Delirious, CorkyJr or a number of other "HeadHunters". I enjoy flying with them, as well as against them, its always fun (except for the occasional cherry picks grrrr). So by being "loyal to ones friends" means not fighting them and having some fun, ya I'm much happier in my universe. I didn't try to "rip you", I just pointed out a few facts. Its the truth you have a problem with, not me.
agreed, morning US time is a problem, but where would you draw the line? Use the above numbers you can't log in to orange, and blue only has 75 people. Say they make a hard cap of 225, and you log in at the same time with the same population. That means that you can't get into orange because it has hit its hard cap and now you get to fly in blue by yourself untill other log in. Yup, that sounds like a lot more fun than the way they have it now doesn't it? SO far, the way they have it set up is the best anyone has come up with. Is it perfect? nope, there will always be someone complaining about it.
I agree with you on most of these, yes some people feel more comfortable on one team or another, but switching for an hour or two just to have some fun isn't going to stop the world from turning.
Ya maybe the arenas are still "unhealthy", but I think they are better, and its much easier to find a fight now a days than it was of the big hordes.
The only way to know for sure if splitting the arenas was good or not is to take a look at HTC subscription numbers. During the single arena days they were loosing bunches of people, and now a days he has bunches coming in, sounds like its fixed to me.
Ya I miss the old days where the single main arena had only a couple hundred people flying, there were missions that were put together that used strategy instead of brute force, furballs developed once or twice a night and people didn't grief them, Mindanao was the preferred map ...unless you were in the lower left... Things change, either you change with them, or you can sit in the corner and complain about what isn't right any more, or you can change with them. Me, life is too short to waste it pissin and moaning, I just have to continue having fun with what we have.
Funny thing is I miss the hoard!
Nothing more satisfying than a handfull of you stopping a huge incoming raid. OK fine you died a lot, didn't matter, the fun was in stopping them.
When I first joined I flew Knit, the bish were infamous for there mass Tiffy raids, never happens anymore.
Dunno, I think there a hell of a lot been lost with the arena split, and I still don't believe the benefits outweigh the cons.
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Funny thing is I miss the hoard!
Nothing more satisfying than a handfull of you stopping a huge incoming raid. OK fine you died a lot, didn't matter, the fun was in stopping them.
When I first joined I flew Knit, the bish were infamous for there mass Tiffy raids, never happens anymore.
Dunno, I think there a hell of a lot been lost with the arena split, and I still don't believe the benefits outweigh the cons.
to HTC they do, more money in their pockets :D
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Funny thing is I miss the hoard!
Nothing more satisfying than a handfull of you stopping a huge incoming raid. OK fine you died a lot, didn't matter, the fun was in stopping them.
When I first joined I flew Knit, the bish were infamous for there mass Tiffy raids, never happens anymore.
Dunno, I think there a hell of a lot been lost with the arena split, and I still don't believe the benefits outweigh the cons.
Kev ...
The benefit, at least to me, is that I have a choice to NOT participate in the LW horde/picking/constant smack talk/forever whining arena(s) if I don't want to.
If we ever went back to just 1 LW arena ... I think I would have to kiss this game goodbye ... and that I think that would be the "con" to HTC and I don't think that I would be the only one to part ways with this game if that were to happen ... so the "benefit" is to keep the types of arenas a "choice", thus keeping/gaining the player base.
Remember, not ALL people want to fly in the LW arenas ... and it isn't necessarily due to plane selection ... it has to do with community.
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LWO capped at 120/100 2pm EST. Yeah, I don't have a life, but that's BS. Blue is not worth playing with 50 people in it.
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The DA has a cap of 500, go go go :aok
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LWO capped at 120/100 2pm EST. Yeah, I don't have a life, but that's BS. Blue is not worth playing with 50 people in it.
So whats the solution? You guys are great at coming in here and complaining, but nobody has come up with a better idea. I'm already convinced that the way HTC does it is the only fair way at this time. With that I have learned to live with it. But if you have a better idea, lets hear it!
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So whats the solution? You guys are great at coming in here and complaining, but nobody has come up with a better idea. I'm already convinced that the way HTC does it is the only fair way at this time. With that I have learned to live with it. But if you have a better idea, lets hear it!
only solution is to log onto arena earlier and leave it afk in tower (or in buffs like me)
or, allow people to join, only if they join the side with lowest numbers then they stuck on that side for whatever the limit is.
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So whats the solution? You guys are great at coming in here and complaining, but nobody has come up with a better idea. I'm already convinced that the way HTC does it is the only fair way at this time. With that I have learned to live with it. But if you have a better idea, lets hear it!
What about raising the caps to all arenas to 350.This will at least let people in instead of HAVING to go to another arena for a while. Some people do have jobs and only have but so often a day to log in as well. Kind of getting tired of seeing alot of good fights go up in smoke because a couple guys can't get into the arena THE REST OF THE SQUAD is already in and making some headway. Been here before the split. It really wasn't all that necessary either. We as a group would like to get into the arenas and play the game we pay to use. It's simple. Noone wants to start an angry whine thread but hey no one likes paying for the busy signal on the big fight arena either. Yes, of course we get the fact it's a game. It's also something we pay for man.
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Funny thing is I miss the hoard!
Nothing more satisfying than a handfull of you stopping a huge incoming raid. OK fine you died a lot, didn't matter, the fun was in stopping them.
When I first joined I flew Knit, the bish were infamous for there mass Tiffy raids, never happens anymore.
Dunno, I think there a hell of a lot been lost with the arena split, and I still don't believe the benefits outweigh the cons.
Damn right, that was always a lot of fun
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LWO capped at 120/100 2pm EST. Yeah, I don't have a life, but that's BS. Blue is not worth playing with 50 people in it.
and if you and the other 50 people or so actually went in there, rather than leaving in disgust, you wouldn't have a problem.
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Kev ...
The benefit, at least to me, is that I have a choice to NOT participate in the LW horde/picking/constant smack talk/forever whining arena(s) if I don't want to.
If we ever went back to just 1 LW arena ... I think I would have to kiss this game goodbye ... and that I think that would be the "con" to HTC and I don't think that I would be the only one to part ways with this game if that were to happen ... so the "benefit" is to keep the types of arenas a "choice", thus keeping/gaining the player base.
Remember, not ALL people want to fly in the LW arenas ... and it isn't necessarily due to plane selection ... it has to do with community.
Hi Slapshot - I am all for choice, no problems with EW , MW arenas. All the problems with the LW arena split and caps were predicted within days of it happening. It's a toughie, how do you 'encourage' (not force) people into the lower populated LW arena. If you raise the initial cap you still get the same problem, only later on.
Would be interesting to see what would happen if there were the two capped LW arenas and a third uncapped arena added, well i think we can guess......
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Hi Slapshot - I am all for choice, no problems with EW , MW arenas. All the problems with the LW arena split and caps were predicted within days of it happening. It's a toughie, how do you 'encourage' (not force) people into the lower populated LW arena. If you raise the initial cap you still get the same problem, only later on.
Would be interesting to see what would happen if there were the two capped LW arenas and a third uncapped arena added, well i think we can guess......
Ahhh ... I guess that I misinterpreted ... Dunno, I think there a hell of a lot been lost with the arena split, and I still don't believe the benefits outweigh the cons. ... thinking that you were referring to the EW/MW/LW arena split and not just the LW dual arena split.
There is no "guessing" Kev ... even HTC doesn't need to guess, they know. They know that their overall subscription base was suffering under the "single" arena cesspool, and all the pleading, whining, and stamping of feet most likely will not change their minds ... unless their bottom line changes.
The argument ... "There aren't enough people in Blue" ... is a bunch of bollocks. If I fly LW it is the Blue arena that I fly, and I have absolutely no problems finding any type of "action" that I want ... air2air / GV / base taking.
I started playing this game in 2002 and I can remember when all we had in the "one" arena was the numbers that I see in the "Blue" arena and for the life of me, I don't ever remember people pissin' and moanin' about the lack of numbers nor the lack of "action" back then. I remember a night when the online numbers went to over 300 people ... it was UNBELIEVABLE back then.
You don't need 200+ to 800+ people to find action and those who think that those numbers are needed for "action" are those that don't know how to start "action" ... they just look/react to those who do start it.
I'm sure if Zazen were to read my post, he could comment on the psychology of "top down" thinking.
Remember the Mindanao map ... remember the team at the "bottom" of the map almost ALWAYS got reset, or NEVER "won the war". There is something within our minds that perceived an up-hill battle and a down-hill battle and the one with the perceived down-hill position seemed to always have the momentum.
I believe the same applies to LW arena choice ... had HTC, when first splitting the LW arenas, had put the Blue before the Orange ... we would have seen the Blue with the most amount of players and Orange would have been the bastard child.
For some reason, people think that because Orange is first in the list, it must be the "better" arena ... and it really isn't.
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What about raising the caps to all arenas to 350.This will at least let people in instead of HAVING to go to another arena for a while. Some people do have jobs and only have but so often a day to log in as well. Kind of getting tired of seeing alot of good fights go up in smoke because a couple guys can't get into the arena THE REST OF THE SQUAD is already in and making some headway. Been here before the split. It really wasn't all that necessary either. We as a group would like to get into the arenas and play the game we pay to use. It's simple. Noone wants to start an angry whine thread but hey no one likes paying for the busy signal on the big fight arena either. Yes, of course we get the fact it's a game. It's also something we pay for man.
.... and if you were the 351st person to log in you would be pissin and moaning that you STILL couldn't get into Org ! At least as it is set up now the cap will adjust quicker as blue fills and you can get into your precious org sooner.
Now how about we set blue up for the old times. Put Donut, Mindanao and the other old maps that are no longer in rotation in Blue ONLY. Reset the map every week. I wounder which arena would be the one everyone would be crying to get into :t
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Fugitive how much is HTC paying you to countlessly defend arena caps over and over again?
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Fugitive how much is HTC paying you to countlessly defend arena caps over and over again?
He does have that "you might steal my wallet so i better pipe in" kind of an attitude here huh? Maybe be a little bit of "i've been here for years and you have not so i'm right no matter what, unless you've been here for around as long" maybe? HEHE Kidding.
Maybe that would work as far as different sized maps fugitive. The big problem is that orange is not the precious arena. It's the map with the most people in it for a bigger fight that is so much more attractive. I've seen at 1pm on a sat. the arena caps at 150/100. Even right now the arena in orange is locked at 310/300 while the others are arround are at 10-20 except for blue at 128/250. Special events is @ 75/650. The other arenas were at 10-20/350. Let's let that number sink in a bit.
10 to 20 people out of 350 in ALL OTHER ARENAS. Let that echo a bit so that it gets understood and heard..........
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There is no way at all outside of some cookie cutter answer that those numbers are cool when you are trying to find a good fight maybe with some limited time to play due to work or lifestyle. This is why i say open the caps up to 350 til after 5 pm every day and TRY THAT. We aren't going to be able to solve problems in one fail swoop here with all the different opinions be them biased or not but at least we can put some things out there to be TRIED at least, no?
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Fugitive how much is HTC paying you to countlessly defend arena caps over and over again?
Im not defending per say, Im goading people on to find a solution thats hasn't been presented before. Crying about caps doesn't do anything. I'm just pushing people to look for a new solution. I'm not crasy about the cap myself, but foe the life of me I can't come up with a better fairer way to do it.
If you look back at my posts, Im all for the community to handle these problems including the "unhealthy" problems that caused the arena split in the first place. I believe that mods should go through a training process and must but endorsed by HTC. These approved mods should have the power to not only mute, but eject, as well as bane from the servers anyone causing problems. This game is a fun place to blow off steam after a hard day at work, and you shouldn't have to put up with a bunch of "crap" while your trying to have some fun. This community some times goes just a bit too far. Trash talking has its place, but when some cross the line there should be someone standing by with a big stick to get it back under control. Had there been consequences to some of the stupidity that caused an unhealthy arena there may never had been a need to split the arenas to control the population.
I've always advocated the cut back of the hordes. I've always said that those squads with large numbers should use more strategy than their shear numbers. Little things like this can enhance the fun of many instead of increase the frustration and canceling of subscriptions.
It just happens that I'm on the same page as HTC about the caps, but I hope there is a better way to handle it. Those of you that have only flown for a year or two give us "old timers" a hard time about the stories of how it use to be some much better in the old days. I believe the old days were much better, not because I'm burned out (ask anyone who knows me from as far back as the AW days, I just love flying too much for that), but because it was. There was a better class of player and the community made everyone tow the line. "Kill macros" were the norm in AW, it was a bit childish, and some of them were a bit over the top. When we switched over to Aces it was frowned on due to the childness of it, and the fact it was a bit low to rub someones face in their failure. Sure you could run one out, but the ridicule you got from the community quickly stopped them.
Today too much of the community (the younger crowd) are looking for recognition and jump on the band wagon of the more vocal of our community. Not all of this groups are ones I'd be proud to be associated with, nor are they the pillers of the community that some of these people think they are. Is this the way the community should continue to grow? If this was the community you were looking to buy a house in, would you? The game is not my life, but neither do I change my personality when I'm here. To me thats not part of the game, Im the same guy in the game as out of the game. Everyone looks at the game a bit different, but it has been proven that if things get so nasty in the game that people start cancelling, changes will be made, and not always for the better, from some peoples point of view.
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He does have that "you might steal my wallet so i better pipe in" kind of an attitude here huh? Maybe be a little bit of "i've been here for years and you have not so i'm right no matter what, unless you've been here for around as long" maybe? HEHE Kidding.
Maybe that would work as far as different sized maps fugitive. The big problem is that orange is not the precious arena. It's the map with the most people in it for a bigger fight that is so much more attractive. I've seen at 1pm on a sat. the arena caps at 150/100. Even right now the arena in orange is locked at 310/300 while the others are arround are at 10-20 except for blue at 128/250. Special events is @ 75/650. The other arenas were at 10-20/350. Let's let that number sink in a bit.
10 to 20 people out of 350 in ALL OTHER ARENAS. Let that echo a bit so that it gets understood and heard..........
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There is no way at all outside of some cookie cutter answer that those numbers are cool when you are trying to find a good fight maybe with some limited time to play due to work or lifestyle. This is why i say open the caps up to 350 til after 5 pm every day and TRY THAT. We aren't going to be able to solve problems in one fail swoop here with all the different opinions be them biased or not but at least we can put some things out there to be TRIED at least, no?
Why is that? Why is orange the most populated arena? Its no more fun that blue. I logged on to blue last night because I was locked out of orange due to cap. I flew for over 5 hours, at one point with a half dozen of my squad mates. I had a bunch of good fights, helped push the Bish horde back, and signed a new guy to the squad. All in all it was a pretty darn fun night.
The only reason orange is so popular is some people just can't get the ball rolling. They are followers and havn't the slightest idea how to get a fight going. If I log on early and I'm in orange and a number of my squadmates log on later and can't get in, I switch to blue to fly with them, of course that why I joined my squad, because I have FUN flying WITH my squad where ever we fly.
Trust me, there isn't anything going on in orange that couldn't be going on in blue.
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Well maybe you have come up with a good solution then. (I believe that mods should go through a training process and must but endorsed by HTC. These approved mods should have the power to not only mute, but eject, as well as bane from the servers anyone causing problems. This game is a fun place to blow off steam after a hard day at work, and you shouldn't have to put up with a bunch of "crap" while your trying to have some fun. This community some times goes just a bit too far. Trash talking has its place, but when some cross the line there should be someone standing by with a big stick to get it back under control. Had there been consequences to some of the stupidity that caused an unhealthy arena there may never had been a need to split the arenas to control the population. ) It was not a population problem but the control of it, and the lack of trained mod's.I for one am new and on for about a year (the game) but my squad has been around seance AW so i know how it used to be,dwelling on the past is not going to help the game all things change and not always evolve as evolution means gets better and from the sound of it not all things in the game have got better.I just wonder wear the kids get the money and credit cards for this,when i was 13 i was running around outside my dad would never have paid for this for me.In closing im not playing anymore i canceled my account for now i only have time to play around 1 pm eastern and the caps always screw me so when i have time to play later when caps are not screwing me then i will come back.I think we all agree their is a problem with the caps the way they are and something needs to be done as every month a new guy brings it up.
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What about raising the caps to all arenas to 350.This will at least let people in instead of HAVING to go to another arena for a while. Some people do have jobs and only have but so often a day to log in as well. Kind of getting tired of seeing a lot of good fights go up in smoke because a couple guys can't get into the arena THE REST OF THE SQUAD is already in and making some headway. Been here before the split. It really wasn't all that necessary either. We as a group would like to get into the arenas and play the game we pay to use. It's simple. No one wants to start an angry whine thread but hey no one likes paying for the busy signal on the big fight arena either. Yes, of course we get the fact it's a game. It's also something we pay for man.
Yes you pay for it but where did it say you pay to play only in Orange etc? I have seen it capped at 355/300 and still have been able to get in with just a little bit of patience
and persistence. If you keep hammerring quit enter quit enter the cap well soon change to 400 and you can get in. I have never had to wait more than about 10 minutes to get into a capped arena no matter what the numbers were. People that whine they pay money to play the game so it should be the way they want it are sad cases. Yes I remember the days of two main arenas and this is much better. It is nice to move to arenas to get away from the same old chronic whiners.
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edited to simply not be rude
Gotta agree with sunka
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Well maybe you have come up with a good solution then. (I believe that mods should go through a training process and must but endorsed by HTC. These approved mods should have the power to not only mute, but eject, as well as bane from the servers anyone causing problems. This game is a fun place to blow off steam after a hard day at work, and you shouldn't have to put up with a bunch of "crap" while your trying to have some fun. This community some times goes just a bit too far. Trash talking has its place, but when some cross the line there should be someone standing by with a big stick to get it back under control. Had there been consequences to some of the stupidity that caused an unhealthy arena there may never had been a need to split the arenas to control the population. ) It was not a population problem but the control of it, and the lack of trained mod's.I for one am new and on for about a year (the game) but my squad has been around seance AW so i know how it used to be,dwelling on the past is not going to help the game all things change and not always evolve as evolution means gets better and from the sound of it not all things in the game have got better.I just wonder wear the kids get the money and credit cards for this,when i was 13 i was running around outside my dad would never have paid for this for me.In closing im not playing anymore i canceled my account for now i only have time to play around 1 pm eastern and the caps always screw me so when i have time to play later when caps are not screwing me then i will come back.I think we all agree their is a problem with the caps the way they are and something needs to be done as every month a new guy brings it up.
I agree too many people let their computers be the baby sitter in the family. My kids were not allowed online gaming until their mid teens, and even then they had to earn the money to pay for the WoW account. Even then they were limited by chores and home work and such. On the lucky days I get off from work I too see a big problem with the caps, but again, I can't think of a better way to run it, and I make do the best I can.
I hope you log back in soon <S>
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My squad has set the Blue arena as our rally point for squad night. We've never had a problem getting everyone on in the same arena. If you know or think Orange will be over the limit during your squad functions, move your squad function to the other arena. Problem solved.
:aok
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In response to Fugitive...
I have proposed a solution, that you refused to acknowledge or discuss...
A possible solution to the "arena cap" AND "ENY" system we now "enjoy" could possibly be to institute a country numbers based cap rather than the total players per arena numbers cap we have now.
For example if the Bishops had a 10% total player advantage <this number is arbitrary> logged in to the "orange" arena and you attempted to log in as a bishop, you would be instructed to log in to another arena or switch countries. Countries would be better balanced, and ENY just might become a thing of the past. Perhaps better gameplay and less griping would be result of such a system.
I won't hold my breath waiting for fugitive to discuss this on it's merits or lack thereof... :)
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In response to Fugitive...
I have proposed a solution, that you refused to acknowledge or discuss...
A possible solution to the "arena cap" AND "ENY" system we now "enjoy" could possibly be to institute a country numbers based cap rather than the total players per arena numbers cap we have now.
For example if the Bishops had a 10% total player advantage <this number is arbitrary> logged in to the "orange" arena and you attempted to log in as a bishop, you would be instructed to log in to another arena or switch countries. Countries would be better balanced, and ENY just might become a thing of the past. Perhaps better gameplay and less griping would be result of such a system.
I won't hold my breath waiting for fugitive to discuss this on it's merits or lack thereof... :)
So, as it is currently, it isn't based off of country population numbers, but just overall server population numbers?
If that's true, that's not right/good/the-best-it-could-potentialy-be imo, especialy considering that every map I've played in has 3 countries/sides and that it should really be based off those country's populations in relation to the other rather than everyone that's on the server (if the country's player ratios are within an acceptable range though, then it should be based on overall server pop then, but only after the ratios are considered).
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In response to Fugitive...
I have proposed a solution, that you refused to acknowledge or discuss...
A possible solution to the "arena cap" AND "ENY" system we now "enjoy" could possibly be to institute a country numbers based cap rather than the total players per arena numbers cap we have now.
For example if the Bishops had a 10% total player advantage <this number is arbitrary> logged in to the "orange" arena and you attempted to log in as a bishop, you would be instructed to log in to another arena or switch countries. Countries would be better balanced, and ENY just might become a thing of the past. Perhaps better gameplay and less griping would be result of such a system.
I won't hold my breath waiting for fugitive to discuss this on it's merits or lack thereof... :)
LOL!!! Whats to discuss? When they first split the arenas thats pretty much how they had it. You logged in and were given a choice to either try another team, arena, or to wait in a "que" fir the next available place. I'm not sure if it was tied to country numbers or arena numbers tho. There was such an out cry that I made This Cartoon (http://webpages.charter.net/maddogjoe/cartoon_balance.htm). I is still silly, to me any way why anyone must hold fast to one arena, and one country. It is a game, lets have fun.
The ENY is based off of the percentage of population differences. I think that works as it should. (the bigger the numbers for your team the more inferior the equipment you have to work with.) The caps are bases off of the percentage of population between the two LW arenas. As the population closes in on the cap in orange it raises the cap in blue to invite more people there keeping the increase in population in each arena more or less in pace with each other.
Yes when the numbers get low in the Mains it can really give you some wild cap numbers, but they have to draw the line someplace. The dynamic cap numbers kick in at what around 125, 150? Its just like the "getting a ditch with only one wheel off the runway" deal. They had to draw the line someplace. So if they draw the line at 200, people will be complaining it should be 250 and so on.
Me, I just live with it and have fun.
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Maybe have a inverse perk system to let those with lower skill into the bigger arena? Maybe charge a percent of total perks in the pool, or charge according to rank, with lower ranks having the chance to enter a bigger brawl, while the elite ones can have smaller fights? Dunno. It's frustrating to wait in que for the arena my squad is in...
The reason I'd want an 'inverse' relationship towards the player's rank and the ability to enter the busiest arena, is that I find the players at the top of the food chain entering these ones merely to increase rank. Whether by cherry picking, vulching, or just hording it with others, they're drawn towards the biggest chum trail...
Plus, would get them to spend some of those perkies saved up. I'm tired of hearing "Oh well, you killed my 262. Down to 11,000 perks now..."
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Maybe have a inverse perk system to let those with lower skill into the bigger arena? Maybe charge a percent of total perks in the pool, or charge according to rank, with lower ranks having the chance to enter a bigger brawl, while the elite ones can have smaller fights? Dunno. It's frustrating to wait in que for the arena my squad is in...
The reason I'd want an 'inverse' relationship towards the player's rank and the ability to enter the busiest arena, is that I find the players at the top of the food chain entering these ones merely to increase rank. Whether by cherry picking, vulching, or just hording it with others, they're drawn towards the biggest chum trail...
Plus, would get them to spend some of those perkies saved up. I'm tired of hearing "Oh well, you killed my 262. Down to 11,000 perks now..."
Using "segregation" or "classifying" to determine who can and cannot enter an arena will never fly.
Remember ...
Those who are at the "top of the ranking food chain" are not necessarily part "the best" crowd and also may not have very many perks.
Conversely, there are those that are on the "bottom of the ranking food chain" who are part of "the best" crowd and have tens of thousands of perks.
In LW I usually rank in the 1000s, if not higher ... I would be safe in saying that my "rank" is no indication of my ability to kill ... and I have over 34,000 perks.
So ... I could get into an arena of "noobs" (or skill-less) for a pittance of perks and have a field day ... and I am not the only one that fits this scenario and they are far more skilled than I.
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LOL!!! Whats to discuss? When they first split the arenas thats pretty much how they had it. You logged in and were given a choice to either try another team, arena, or to wait in a "que" fir the next available place. I'm not sure if it was tied to country numbers or arena numbers tho. There was such an out cry that I made This Cartoon (http://webpages.charter.net/maddogjoe/cartoon_balance.htm). I is still silly, to me any way why anyone must hold fast to one arena, and one country. It is a game, lets have fun.
The ENY is based off of the percentage of population differences. I think that works as it should. (the bigger the numbers for your team the more inferior the equipment you have to work with.) The caps are bases off of the percentage of population between the two LW arenas. As the population closes in on the cap in orange it raises the cap in blue to invite more people there keeping the increase in population in each arena more or less in pace with each other.
Yes when the numbers get low in the Mains it can really give you some wild cap numbers, but they have to draw the line someplace. The dynamic cap numbers kick in at what around 125, 150? Its just like the "getting a ditch with only one wheel off the runway" deal. They had to draw the line someplace. So if they draw the line at 200, people will be complaining it should be 250 and so on.
Me, I just live with it and have fun.
So... you are OK with the choice of flying with your squadmates (staying with your country of choice) and having the following choice (granted it is in the extreme, but I personally have had this happen on more than on occasion):
arena 1: ENY 26
arena 2: unnumbered 3-1 by one country
I think that HTC has responded admirably to the changing dynamics as the game has evolved, but I also believe that there is always room for improvement.
If having "balance" between countries and/or servers is the desired result, do you believe that we have reached the zenith of possibilities in achieving that goal?
You will have to argue your point more convincingly if you want to win me over... I stand by my proposal.
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If having "balance" between countries and/or servers is the desired result, do you believe that we have reached the zenith of possibilities in achieving that goal?
Your idea would achieve this goal, but the arena limits have nothing to do with this goal. Unless I miss the point and if all sides are balanced no one can get into the arena after a certain number? If this is what you think, then you would be limiting the arena even more. Because I would write it so that if 300 was the cap only 100 of each could enter.
The arena limit is in place because there simply is a limit of how many people can play in one place and still have good game play. If you idea is ment to increase this number, then it most probably is a hidden vail to just increase the caps and not solve the issue.
So while your idea is not a bad one for achieving country balance, it really does not address the reason the limits are there in the first place.
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The arena limit is in place because there simply is a limit of how many people can play in one place and still have good game play. If you idea is ment to increase this number, then it most probably is a hidden vail to just increase the caps and not solve the issue.
So while your idea is not a bad one for achieving country balance, it really does not address the reason the limits are there in the first place.
But to play the devils advocate -
Lets assume the arena cap is at 300.
You could have a 135/135/30 split, or a 200/75/25 split how is that good for gameplay? (extreme examples but could happen)
I think the idea that was put forward but with a slight modification would help -
a) Move the country switch option to the arena login screen.
b) Allow people to join a capped arena as long as they join the lowest numbers country.
Moving the country switch to the arena login prevents them switching again once in the arena.
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But to play the devils advocate -
Lets assume the arena cap is at 300.
You could have a 135/135/30 split, or a 200/75/25 split how is that good for gameplay? (extreme examples but could happen)
I think the idea that was put forward but with a slight modification would help -
a) Move the country switch option to the arena login screen.
b) Allow people to join a capped arena as long as they join the lowest numbers country.
Moving the country switch to the arena login prevents them switching again once in the arena.
the reason a country has the lowest #'s some times is because theres not a fight.
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I think the idea of evening out the teams is just to work-around the ever-changing server caps (IE: 80 on Knit, 80 on Bish, 60 on Rook... well have the server let 20 more players wanting to connect, just on Rook only). And in regards to maintaining the best quality of game play for a player while on the server, this does nothing, if anyhting it makes it worse and increases lag by pushing the server above it's limits (yes, the teams are even, but if you can't play then what's the point?).
I'm personaly unaware of what trips a server into lowering/raising it's maximum population numbers throughout the day, but if it were possible to eliminate it (or make it a rarer occurance, especialy during prime times when things are at their peak) then I think it would help eliminate some of the player frustration over it (obviously, not all of it).
Once a server is capped, it's capped, but if a server is capped at 200 players 24/7, then people learn to respect the hard-cap. A squad leader starting up for the evening, seeing the server at 190/200 and estimating 20 members in attendance for that evening, will make a decision to not join it and pick another server, knowing once it hits 200, it's full.
The way it is now, that squad leader shows up, picks a server that is 210/250 players, and then a short while later the server cap is lowered to 200, but there are still 230 players on it. This frustrates the people not only trying to connect to it ("WTF, it's got 30 players over-cap! My CO is going to have my hide.") but the people who already connected to it ("Worst attendance ever guys, there was just 3 of us on last night, thnx for blowing it off." - Is it really his fault that 10 minutes before meeting time the server cap changed? Hopefuly the rest of his guys locked out have a way of contacting him while he's in-game and can change to another server.... hopefuly.).
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So... you are OK with the choice of flying with your squadmates (staying with your country of choice) and having the following choice (granted it is in the extreme, but I personally have had this happen on more than on occasion):
arena 1: ENY 26
arena 2: unnumbered 3-1 by one country
I think that HTC has responded admirably to the changing dynamics as the game has evolved, but I also believe that there is always room for improvement.
If having "balance" between countries and/or servers is the desired result, do you believe that we have reached the zenith of possibilities in achieving that goal?
You will have to argue your point more convincingly if you want to win me over... I stand by my proposal.
I don't have a problem flying with an ENY value, nor in an out numbered arena.
ENY means nothing to me, it just means I fly a different plane...tho I do fly the P-38 G often enough as it is :D Being out numbered is fun because I'd rather defend than attack. fighting over my base I have less of a chance of getting hit by ack, and in a 38 that is pretty important. Again you limit your self by looking at these things as restrictions, I look at them as different paths to explore.
Your idea has merit... so sayeth the high lord HT ;) But like I said, to me its not a problem that must be solved. Are we at the "zenith" maybe. Any solution that is used must be something in the middle. There is no hard a fast way to fix it. Like HT said, your solution addresses the ENY issues, but really doesn't do anything in maintaining an even split between arenas. What would you do if the arena has hit its hard cap (because you know there will be one due to the healthy game play issue) and all you have left is the other LW arena and there is ony 75 people in there split between 3 countries? My guess is you'd hit the BBS, and pretty hard :devil
The way it is now many not be perfect, but its about the only fair way to do it.
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Your idea would achieve this goal, but the arena limits have nothing to do with this goal. Unless I miss the point and if all sides are balanced no one can get into the arena after a certain number? If this is what you think, then you would be limiting the arena even more. Because I would write it so that if 300 was the cap only 100 of each could enter.
The arena limit is in place because there simply is a limit of how many people can play in one place and still have good game play. If you idea is meant to increase this number, then it most probably is a hidden vail to just increase the caps and not solve the issue.
So while your idea is not a bad one for achieving country balance, it really does not address the reason the limits are there in the first place.
Thank you for the thoughtful reply oh Grand Poobaa! The Scotch is in route!
My suggestion was meant to address the issue of having an excessive ENY in one arena, and going to the other (to escape the oppressively high ENY) and being outnumbered by a large margin. I do think that an overall number cap is useful for balancing the load on your equipment. However, it seems to me that a few tweaks could generate an improved balance in sides, and lower instances of a 26+ ENY.
Thanks again for addressing this issue HiTech, It is always educational to get the perspective of the guy that actually created the product! :salute
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I don't have a problem flying with an ENY value, nor in an out numbered arena.
ENY means nothing to me, it just means I fly a different plane...tho I do fly the P-38 G often enough as it is :D Being out numbered is fun because I'd rather defend than attack. fighting over my base I have less of a chance of getting hit by ack, and in a 38 that is pretty important. Again you limit your self by looking at these things as restrictions, I look at them as different paths to explore.
Your idea has merit... so sayeth the high lord HT ;) But like I said, to me its not a problem that must be solved. Are we at the "zenith" maybe. Any solution that is used must be something in the middle. There is no hard a fast way to fix it. Like HT said, your solution addresses the ENY issues, but really doesn't do anything in maintaining an even split between arenas. What would you do if the arena has hit its hard cap (because you know there will be one due to the healthy game play issue) and all you have left is the other LW arena and there is ony 75 people in there split between 3 countries? My guess is you'd hit the BBS, and pretty hard :devil
The way it is now many not be perfect, but its about the only fair way to do it.
Thanks for the honest discussion Fugitive, I retract and apologize for my snide comment directed at you! :salute
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Like I said Kev, I could limit all sides to 100 in your example.
So then you would have 100/100/25 it that suites you better?
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Your idea would achieve this goal, but the arena limits have nothing to do with this goal. Unless I miss the point and if all sides are balanced no one can get into the arena after a certain number? If this is what you think, then you would be limiting the arena even more. Because I would write it so that if 300 was the cap only 100 of each could enter.
The arena limit is in place because there simply is a limit of how many people can play in one place and still have good game play. If you idea is ment to increase this number, then it most probably is a hidden vail to just increase the caps and not solve the issue.
So while your idea is not a bad one for achieving country balance, it really does not address the reason the limits are there in the first place.
Jebus! When did HT learn to spell? Only two misspelling in the whole post. I must have missed something the past year or so. :confused:
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Firefox
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Like I said Kev, I could limit all sides to 100 in your example.
So then you would have 100/100/25 it that suites you better?
Woot limit 100 good for me.
Why that thar is way on up tha krusty scale fer shor.
I'll take "Dog Fights" for $200 please!
Watch messin with HT or you'll see prompts in the future, "To enter this Arena please authorize $15 per use". Thank you for your patronage. :aok
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I still think this would be the best way to go ...
I will use numbers that are easiest for explanation and not the real numbers.
If ...
Orange and Blue have a cap of 100 and when an LW arena population reaches 50% of the cap, the other LW cap is increased by 50 seats.
So ...
Once Orange reaches 50 players, Blue cap is increased to 150 and Orange still has room of 50 more players before is reaches its cap.
Once the 100 cap is reached in Orange no more entry is allowed.
Now that Blue cap has been increased to 150, players will begin to fill up Blue. Once Blue reaches a population of 75 players, Orange cap will be raised to 150. At this point, people really have a choice of Orange or Blue because neither has reached their respective caps.
So at this instant we would see ...
LW1 - 50/150
LW2 - 75/150
==============================================
Now lets go back to the beginning and start again ...
Once Orange reaches 50 players, Blue cap is increased to 150 and Orange still has room of 50 more players.
Once the 100 cap is reached in Orange (current numbers in Orange are - 60 Rooks - 25 Knights - 15 Bish) and someone selects Orange while the cap has been realized, they are presented with another popup choice ...
Orange - Knights (until they reach a population of 60*)
Orange - Bish (until they reach a population of 60*)
Blue - Open for all at the moment
*60 is set by the highest single population at the point that the cap had been reached ... in this case, the Rooks had 60 when the cap was reached.
This way, someone who wants to play in Orange and is willing to join one of the weaker sides, is allowed entry. So ... If I choose Bish ... then the cap is now 101/101 ... so on and so forth until balance is achieved (180/180), and at that point, there is no more entry into Orange until Blue has reached its saturation point causing the cap in Orange to be increased.
So if Orange did reach 180/180 by people choosing the under populated countries and Blue eventually did reach it 50% saturation point, the new cap for Orange would be 180 + 50 = 230 so we would see ...
Orange - 180/230
Blue - 75/150
This allows entry into a "capped" arena ... as long as you choose one of the under-populated countries.
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I used to love the huge furballs on the old maps, these caps personally drove me away from the game. :frown:
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999000<----agrees with MENDEZ
<S>
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Like I said Kev, I could limit all sides to 100 in your example.
So then you would have 100/100/25 it that suites you better?
Hi HT,
Still leaves you with the same problem, is (a)100/(b)100/(c)25 good for gameplay?
Plus you could guarentee the other arena would have a huge amount of country (c) players in it, unbalancing that arena.
So it would really be no different.
It's a toughie, but it's obvious for one reason or another the majority of people/squads are now loyal to their chess piece.
Wasn't such a problem a few years back when every country took their turn in the bucket as squads rotated around countries, still don't know why it stopped happening.
Time to rename the countries and randomly assign squads to them?
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It's a toughie, but it's obvious for one reason or another the majority of people/squads are now loyal to their chess piece.
Wasn't such a problem a few years back when every country took their turn in the bucket as squads rotated around countries, still don't know why it stopped happening.
You have a very selective memory. When we had only one arena, we also had the imbalance issue. There were 6 month periods of huge imbalances between countries.
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HT, just make them both stop at 500.... :)
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You have a very selective memory. When we had only one arena, we also had the imbalance issue. There were 6 month periods of huge imbalances between countries.
I liked the hard side caps, however I am in the vast minority on this.
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I remember the days when there was an imbalance between countries and there was talk about randomizing which country a new member would be assigned to. There where also squads that switched in an attempted to balance things out. We also got the ENY system in an attempt to even things up but more on ENY in a minute. I don’t know if those measures worked but I certainly don’t hear about the imbalance between countries anymore. It is either fixed or having more than one arena masks the imbalance. But you really don’t want balance anyway.
If the arena had 100/100/100, you might think they are balanced but you could have 100 Speakers against 100 Vets, or 100 Loners against a 100 working together in organized squads, or you could have two countries ganging up on one. The numbers would look good but the actual play would not be fair or balanced. You would hope that you would get a normal distribution of skill and organization between countries but then what would you have? Stagnation. Every time you logged in the play would be exactly the same in every arena. It would quickly get boring. It is the imbalances that make everyday a little different and keeps the game interesting.
ENY was introduced in an attempt to both balance out the sides and the advantage. I say the ENY’s primary purpose is to balance the countries’ advantages and the side balancing is just a byproduct. As a country gets more players as compared to the other two countries, that country has a greater advantage over the other countries. This, of course, assumes that there is a normal distribution of skill and organization between counties. As a country gets more players, they get a higher ENY value which forces them into less capable aircraft and equipment which diminishes their advantage. Not being able to fly their favorite ride may compel some to switch countries and help balance out the sides and eliminate the advantage.
With ENY you have choices. You can live with it, you can switch countries, you can log off, or you can now switch arenas. But with arena caps, you either live with it and go into a different arena or log off. The problem comes down to having more choices. Having the ability to join a low numbered country in a caped arena is adding another choice.
I personally have not had too many problems with the caps; but what I would like to see, is the caps removed and more information on the arena selection screen. The screen should show the total number of player, the number of players in each country, the ENY values, and the map name. Not having the caps will give the players choices and having information may help them make a better choice. Obviously this approach opens the possibility that a map can get over-saturated with players and become “unhealthy.” If this is the case, I hope the “smell” will compel people to move to a different arena. But if not, as data is collected (maybe it is already known) and it turns out that a map gets “unhealthy” with a certain number of players, a hard cap could be set for that particular map.
Anyway, I think it is the feeling of not having choices that is the real problem with caps.
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I think the idea of evening out the teams is just to work-around the ever-changing server caps (IE: 80 on Knit, 80 on Bish, 60 on Rook... well have the server let 20 more players wanting to connect, just on Rook only). And in regards to maintaining the best quality of game play for a player while on the server, this does nothing, if anyhting it makes it worse and increases lag by pushing the server above it's limits (yes, the teams are even, but if you can't play then what's the point?).
I'm personaly unaware of what trips a server into lowering/raising it's maximum population numbers throughout the day, but if it were possible to eliminate it (or make it a rarer occurance, especialy during prime times when things are at their peak) then I think it would help eliminate some of the player frustration over it (obviously, not all of it).
Once a server is capped, it's capped, but if a server is capped at 200 players 24/7, then people learn to respect the hard-cap. A squad leader starting up for the evening, seeing the server at 190/200 and estimating 20 members in attendance for that evening, will make a decision to not join it and pick another server, knowing once it hits 200, it's full.
The way it is now, that squad leader shows up, picks a server that is 210/250 players, and then a short while later the server cap is lowered to 200, but there are still 230 players on it. This frustrates the people not only trying to connect to it ("WTF, it's got 30 players over-cap! My CO is going to have my hide.") but the people who already connected to it ("Worst attendance ever guys, there was just 3 of us on last night, thnx for blowing it off." - Is it really his fault that 10 minutes before meeting time the server cap changed? Hopefuly the rest of his guys locked out have a way of contacting him while he's in-game and can change to another server.... hopefuly.).
:rofl what if the guys show up before the squad leader? What if the second server is also at 190? Why is your squad leader dectating where you are going to play? :rofl :rofl (don't answer the last one, lol)
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I was refering more to organized squad events, where organizational planning and people's time/efforts/resources have already been comited to a set date, time and location.
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I was refering more to organized squad events, where organizational planning and people's time/efforts/resources have already been comited to a set date, time and location.
Same questions apply. What if both arenas are at 190? Will you be willing to go the third that has 5 guys in it?
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Can't join my squadies on a Sat morning in orange....215/100.
But wait! I can join 70 others and maybe find a fight in blue
....think I'll go with cartoons...Tom and Jerry make more sense than this.
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Can't join my squadies on a Sat morning in orange....215/100.
But wait! I can join 70 others and maybe find a fight in blue
....think I'll go with cartoons...Tom and Jerry make more sense than this.
More like your squadies wont change arenas to be with you :rofl Some squadies ehh?
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Dedalos is right on actually. There are close to 65 people in the squad I'm in. How can you expect that many people if they are all on at the same time in an established fight to leave the arena even though they might be on seperate missions for 1 or 2 guys showing up a bit late? Really that's a bit unrealistic don't you think? There's at any given time at least 10 to 15 of the squad guys on depending on time zone. You saying they should all drop what they're doing and go to the other arena whenever because the caps won't let you in? Please explain because maybe something is getting lost here in the text. Not trying to stir the pot just giving an example of how things are more often than not lately.
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More like your squadies wont change arenas to be with you :rofl Some squadies ehh?
Odd thing to get a laugh from. :rolleyes:
Why would I ask them to leave 200+ to go to 70? Btw, My squadies are great. Cheap rip by you.
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Dedalos is right on actually. There are close to 65 people in the squad I'm in. How can you expect that many people if they are all on at the same time in an established fight to leave the arena even though they might be on seperate missions for 1 or 2 guys showing up a bit late? Really that's a bit unrealistic don't you think? There's at any given time at least 10 to 15 of the squad guys on depending on time zone. You saying they should all drop what they're doing and go to the other arena whenever because the caps won't let you in? Please explain because maybe something is getting lost here in the text. Not trying to stir the pot just giving an example of how things are more often than not lately.
:rofl You guys are funny. I'm saying this dang cap is keeping me from flying w/ buds today, and I DONT KNOW WHY IT HAS TO BE THAT WAY. Thats what this thread is about. Am i being Unrealistic? I don't think so. The fact that we have an areana on Tuesday that can support 800+ proves my point. I never asked anyone to drop what they are doing. Geez.
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Dmbear
man I totally misunderstood your quoting of dedalos. You and I are on the ame page. Sorry about that.
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:rofl You guys are funny. I'm saying this dang cap is keeping me from flying w/ buds today, and I DONT KNOW WHY IT HAS TO BE THAT WAY. Thats what this thread is about. Am i being Unrealistic? I don't think so. The fact that we have an areana on Tuesday that can support 800+ proves my point. I never asked anyone to drop what they are doing. Geez.
If it is not an organized squad night then what is the problem? Your plane will take off even without your squadies. If it is organized, may be your fearless leader should have checked the numbers and pick the other arena?
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<S>....and I love you man. But you can't have my Bud Light :aok
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If it is not an organized squad night then what is the problem? Your plane will take off even without your squadies. If it is organized, may be your fearless leader should have checked the numbers and pick the other arena?
I don't get you. My fearless leader? What is your problem? We dont have anything organized, I just want to fly with people I enjoy. You seem to think I fly with a bunch of squaddies all the time, and that they are a crutch for me. Well, my plane take off all the time without squadies. :rolleyes:
I'm staying on the topic...that is, I don't understand the arena caps purpose. I'm also giving an example of how it frustrates me.
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Using cell phone to read and write. Forums not allowed on govt pc. By all means enjoy that bid light. I weigh anchor and sail off with the capn. Just not til Monday. The "play the game like this" crowd seems to be on the prowl today. Gotta get some peanut brittle and coffee.
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:rofl You guys are funny. I'm saying this dang cap is keeping me from flying w/ buds today... The fact that we have an areana on Tuesday that can support 800+ proves my point. I never asked anyone to drop what they are doing.
Why not have a permanent huge arena, added to what we have already? That way, the folks who want the smaller arenas, small maps, ect., can have what they want. The folks that want the bigger map, larger fights, and the ability to fly with their friends/squaddies whenever they want, can go to the huge area like on Tuesday.
Why wouldn't that work?
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You seem to think I fly with a bunch of squaddies all the time,
Well, you said that because you could not log in to the arena your squadies were in "....think I'll go with cartoons...Tom and Jerry make more sense than this."
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Thought I might throw this in there, I sat in the O'club for 10 min. tring to get into the Orange, so I decided "F it, I'll do a sortie in the other arena." I did that sortie that I wanted, went about 15 min till I died.
Oh last thing before I went into the other arena. It was 272/200 just before I went to do my sortie. here is what it was 15 min. later:
(http://i256.photobucket.com/albums/hh198/mniezelski/maproom.jpg)
This is what pizzes me off, because I got discoed before that and it was 250/300.
Here it is 5 min later: How does it go up, when you cain't even get into the arena?
(http://i256.photobucket.com/albums/hh198/mniezelski/maproom-1.jpg)
Again, another 15 min later. This has been the worse I've ever seen it, I've not been able to get into the Orange for just under 45 minutes now:
(http://i256.photobucket.com/albums/hh198/mniezelski/maproom-2.jpg)
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Ya know, guys have been complaining about the caps idea since its inception.
We have a fair amount of other choices to make if we can't get into our arena of choice.
Pick one or log off.
The rules are the rules.
Before the caps were put in place, people were complaining about this and that.
Well thanks to all the complaining , we now have capped arenas.
Be careful what you wish for.
There is no way HTC can possibly EVER satisfy everyone in this game.
Someone will always be unhappy with this or that.
The game is what it is.
If you don't like it, go play WOW.
BTW, I have NEVER had to wait more than 10 or 20 minutes to get into my arena of choice.
EVER!.
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Ya know, guys have been complaining about the caps idea since its inception.
We have a fair amount of other choices to make if we can't get into our arena of choice.
Pick one or log off.
The rules are the rules.
Before the caps were put in place, people were complaining about this and that.
Well thanks to all the complaining , we now have capped arenas.
Be careful what you wish for.
There is no way HTC can possibly EVER satisfy everyone in this game.
Someone will always be unhappy with this or that.
The game is what it is.
If you don't like it, go play WOW.
BTW, I have NEVER had to wait more than 10 or 20 minutes to get into my arena of choice.
EVER!.
I thought feedback improved things, but i was wrong. That answers everything! I guess Lemming is the way to go. Thanks Boner and Dedalos :aok
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I'm staying on the topic...that is, I don't understand the arena caps purpose. I'm also giving an example of how it frustrates me.
The arena caps are set in place first, not to have an over populated arena where the arena can then become unhealthy causing people to cancel their subscriptions. Second, they are set up to increase, and decrease in cap dynamically. As the population increase towards the cap room opens up in the other arena allowing the second areas population to grow equally as the first arena. This was done because on a normal night of 600 people logging in one arena would be at the 500 cap and the second arena would only have 100 (which lead to many complaints about not being able to get into the other arena, far more than they get now I'm sure). Now with the dynamic cap set-up it is more likely to have each arena close to 300 people on that same night.Why not have a permanent huge arena, added to what we have already? That way, the folks who want the smaller arenas, small maps, ect., can have what they want. The folks that want the bigger map, larger fights, and the ability to fly with their friends/squaddies whenever they want, can go to the huge area like on Tuesday.
Why wouldn't that work?
It was deemed unhealthy but HTC, and was the reason for a lot of people canceling their subscriptions. Now people only have to put up with that one night a week and can work around it.
Doesn't any one know how to use the search function? :huh
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I thought feedback improved things, but i was wrong. That answers everything! I guess Lemming is the way to go. Thanks Boner and Dedalos :aok
Yeah Einstein, "feedback" was how we wound up with the cap situation we are in now!
Sooo lets change it again!
God knows what pandoras box that would open!
The cap situation is fine.
"Most" of the people don't mind it too much.
If not gettin into my arena of choice is the worst thing that happens to me in my daily life, I think I'm doin alright. Could be alot worse.
While I will agree with you that sometimes feedback can be a constructive thing.
It can also be destructive.
I'll say it again,be careful what you wish for,you just might get it. Get it?
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The arena caps are set in place first, not to have an over populated arena where the arena can then become unhealthy causing people to cancel their subscriptions. Second, they are set up to increase, and decrease in cap dynamically. As the population increase towards the cap room opens up in the other arena allowing the second areas population to grow equally as the first arena. This was done because on a normal night of 600 people logging in one arena would be at the 500 cap and the second arena would only have 100 (which lead to many complaints about not being able to get into the other arena, far more than they get now I'm sure). Now with the dynamic cap set-up it is more likely to have each arena close to 300 people on that same night.
It was deemed unhealthy but HTC, and was the reason for a lot of people canceling their subscriptions. Now people only have to put up with that one night a week and can work around it.
Doesn't any one know how to use the search function? :huh
There is a search function? :D Please let me lighten the mood, cause the vibe in here is ridiculously aggressive.
Well that's great, thanks for the info. Now set up both arenas with a max cap at all times, and it'll all make sense to me. Otherwise, I'm still wondering why i cant get into an areana with only 215 in it.
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Now people only have to put up with that one night a week and can work around it.
Of course some find Titanic Tuesdays the funnest day of the week!
Why not have that arena available all the time, as well as the others? More choices...more happy customers. What's wrong with that? Why are some people so opposed to that?
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Of course some find Titanic Tuesdays the funnest day of the week!
Why not have that arena available all the time, as well as the others? More choices...more happy customers. What's wrong with that? Why are some people so opposed to that?
:noid Carefull Warspawn, there are people that don't want u to make waves! :noid
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There is a search function? :D Please let me lighten the mood, cause the vibe in here is ridiculously aggressive.
Well that's great, thanks for the info. Now set up both arenas with a max cap at all times, and it'll all make sense to me. Otherwise, I'm still wondering why i cant get into an areana with only 215 in it.
Thats how it was when they first split the arenas. The first 350 people who logged on went to orange, then everyone else would have to go to blue. This mean until the enough people logged in the blue arena was always under populated which then cause a ton of complains, far more I'm sure than what they get now about the caps. So DMBEAR, in the old way if you were the 370th person to log in you flew in an arena with 19 other people. With the way they have it now, you log into an arena with close to 200 people. which do you really prefer ?Of course some find Titanic Tuesdays the funnest day of the week!
Why not have that arena available all the time, as well as the others? More choices...more happy customers. What's wrong with that? Why are some people so opposed to that?
Whether the majority of people want the "titanic Tuesday" set up all the time or not, you will NEVER see it that way. HTC has all the evidence he needs to prove that "one big arena" is not healthy to the game. So it won't happen. Should the subscription base increase enough that there is more than 1000 people logging in regularly I'm willing to bet you'll set 3 LW arenas before you see the cap steady at 500.
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I kinda think if some people don't complain, they're not happy. :aok
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Thats how it was when they first split the arenas. The first 350 people who logged on went to orange, then everyone else would have to go to blue. This mean until the enough people logged in the blue arena was always under populated which then cause a ton of complains, far more I'm sure than what they get now about the caps. So DMBEAR, in the old way if you were the 370th person to log in you flew in an arena with 19 other people. With the way they have it now, you log into an arena with close to 200 people. which do you really prefer ?
Whether the majority of people want the "titanic Tuesday" set up all the time or not, you will NEVER see it that way. HTC has all the evidence he needs to prove that "one big arena" is not healthy to the game. So it won't happen. Should the subscription base increase enough that there is more than 1000 people logging in regularly I'm willing to bet you'll set 3 LW arenas before you see the cap steady at 500.
I don't know why you have to ask. I would like to be in the arena with the most players. If that arena is "FULL" I would happily go to the other. The fact that the definition of "FULL" changes is what I don't like.
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Arena Caps have never hindered my Game Play.
I play where I choose, when I choose.
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I don't know why you have to ask. I would like to be in the arena with the most players. If that arena is "FULL" I would happily go to the other. The fact that the definition of "FULL" changes is what I don't like.
I rather doubt that ! Your here complaining how you can't fly with your squad now. If your squad won't switch to the "other arena" now what are the chances of it switching to one with only 19 people in it?
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Thought I might throw this in there, I sat in the O'club for 10 min. tring to get into the Orange, so I decided "F it, I'll do a sortie in the other arena." I did that sortie that I wanted, went about 15 min till I died.
Oh last thing before I went into the other arena. It was 272/200 just before I went to do my sortie. here is what it was 15 min. later:
(http://i256.photobucket.com/albums/hh198/mniezelski/maproom.jpg)
This is what pizzes me off, because I got discoed before that and it was 250/300.
Here it is 5 min later: How does it go up, when you cain't even get into the arena?
(http://i256.photobucket.com/albums/hh198/mniezelski/maproom-1.jpg)
Again, another 15 min later. This has been the worse I've ever seen it, I've not been able to get into the Orange for just under 45 minutes now:
(http://i256.photobucket.com/albums/hh198/mniezelski/maproom-2.jpg)
Hey, some one finally went into the AvA :rofl I guess they did bring people in there with the changes :rofl :rofl :rofl
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I rather doubt that ! Your here complaining how you can't fly with your squad now. If your squad won't switch to the "other arena" now what are the chances of it switching to one with only 19 people in it?
Doubt all you want. If there was a max cap i would understand why i could not get in. As long as that cap goes up and down I wont. Get it?
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Doubt all you want. If there was a max cap i would understand why i could not get in. As long as that cap goes up and down I wont. Get it?
nope, because as long as the cap fluctuates it makes it more fair for more people. More people can get into the arena they want. I don't see why you can see that.
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nope, because as long as the cap fluctuates it makes it more fair for more people. More people can get into the arena they want. I don't see why you can see that.
Don't see why you can't see that a max cap ALLOWS people get into that arena unless it's full, while a fluctuating cap KEEPS PEOPLE OUT at times they want to get in for no apparent reason. What I can't see is why can't it stay open untill it is full? Open means you can get into the arena. Closed means you can't. Fluctuating means sometimes you can't get in. Max cap means you can get in untill it is full. If it is full, you cant get in. If it is not full, you can get in. :rolleyes:
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btw
orange 209/100
blue 107/250
:rolleyes:
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OK every night you log in orange is at its cap, and blue has 50-100 people for the hour of so you have to play. This goes on for weeks because you log in about the same time as always due to your real life schedule. So for weeks you get to play in an under populated arena happy in the knowledge that its ok that the other arena is full up.
....or we have floating caps and you get to fly in orange with the rest of your squad 4 out of 7 nights for weeks. Which is better, some or never? :rolleyes:
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OK every night you log in orange is at its cap, and blue has 50-100 people for the hour of so you have to play. This goes on for weeks because you log in about the same time as always due to your real life schedule. So for weeks you get to play in an under populated arena happy in the knowledge that its ok that the other arena is full up.
....or we have floating caps and you get to fly in orange with the rest of your squad 4 out of 7 nights for weeks. Which is better, some or never? :rolleyes:
I would like to see this
Orange 250/800
Blue 70/800
Then I can go to orange or blue..............Get it?
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Its never going to happen. I think HTC cap limit is in the 450-500 area. After that the arena game play becomes unhealthy and hurts subscription rates so he won't go above it. And its already been proven that people will ...much like lemmings pile into one arena until it hits its cap. So with an average of 600 people loggin in on a normal US prime time 500 will be in one arena, and the other 100 will be complaining about NOT being able to get in. With floating caps there is only a few complaining instead of the 100..... Get it?
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Its never going to happen. I think HTC cap limit is in the 450-500 area. After that the arena game play becomes unhealthy and hurts subscription rates so he won't go above it. And its already been proven that people will ...much like lemmings pile into one arena until it hits its cap. So with an average of 600 people loggin in on a normal US prime time 500 will be in one arena, and the other 100 will be complaining about NOT being able to get in. With floating caps there is only a few complaining instead of the 100..... Get it?
If you open them both up, what is the complaint HTC would receive? If you can get into either one, WHAT WOULD BE THE PROBLEM? :D
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Get it?
Some will NEVER get it ... get it ? :D
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Tell me if this sounds right.
There is a max amount of players where gameplay starts to become compromised.
Why not have the cap be set to that and not fluctuate?
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After that the arena game play becomes unhealthy...
That's so ambiguous it hurts. How does one decide it's unhealthy? For you? For me? For goodness' sake, don't try to decide what's fun for me. Or for others. Your opinion is that the arena game play becomes "unhealthy" (wtf is this being used here in this context for, anyways? I feel like I'm reading a cigarrette package or something...) when there are large numbers playing.
Me, for one, over the last 8 years of playing and paying for AH (and AW, WB...) found the funnest days were the ones where there were tons of people on, with fights all over the map. You had HQ raids going, huge pork missions launching from behind the lines trying to stop an advance, multiple CV engagements, formations of buffs and fighters launching to intercept... And some crazy furballs with players from all three sides going at it. Heh, I think my first major upgrade to a pc was because I wanted faster framerates and better detail in AH back shortly after Y2K.
I still find Tuesday to be the most fun day for me, because virtually all of my friends are in one spot, and we're able to play together without limits in a late war setting.
Unhealthy? Meh, maybe in your opinion, but sometimes those kind of things are actually the most fun. You know, fast cars, unsafe sex, a good whiskey...
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999000<----------agrees with Warpawn...I've played the game for a while now...and seriously I still have now clue what unhealthy is???
I've seen people complain about the same things regardless of area size ..like HO's but thats another thingy that I don't understand?
<S> 999000
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That's so ambiguous it hurts. How does one decide it's unhealthy? For you? For me? For goodness' sake, don't try to decide what's fun for me. Or for others. Your opinion is that the arena game play becomes "unhealthy" (wtf is this being used here in this context for, anyways? I feel like I'm reading a cigarrette package or something...) when there are large numbers playing.
Me, for one, over the last 8 years of playing and paying for AH (and AW, WB...) found the funnest days were the ones where there were tons of people on, with fights all over the map. You had HQ raids going, huge pork missions launching from behind the lines trying to stop an advance, multiple CV engagements, formations of buffs and fighters launching to intercept... And some crazy furballs with players from all three sides going at it. Heh, I think my first major upgrade to a pc was because I wanted faster framerates and better detail in AH back shortly after Y2K.
I still find Tuesday to be the most fun day for me, because virtually all of my friends are in one spot, and we're able to play together without limits in a late war setting.
Unhealthy? Meh, maybe in your opinion, but sometimes those kind of things are actually the most fun. You know, fast cars, unsafe sex, a good whiskey...
:aok
999000<----------agrees with Warpawn...I've played the game for a while now...and seriously I still have now clue what unhealthy is???
I've seen people complain about the same things regardless of area size ..like HO's but thats another thingy that I don't understand?
<S> 999000
:aok
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That's so ambiguous it hurts. How does one decide it's unhealthy? For you? For me? For goodness' sake, don't try to decide what's fun for me. Or for others. Your opinion is that the arena game play becomes "unhealthy" (wtf is this being used here in this context for, anyways? I feel like I'm reading a cigarrette package or something...) when there are large numbers playing.
Me, for one, over the last 8 years of playing and paying for AH (and AW, WB...) found the funnest days were the ones where there were tons of people on, with fights all over the map. You had HQ raids going, huge pork missions launching from behind the lines trying to stop an advance, multiple CV engagements, formations of buffs and fighters launching to intercept... And some crazy furballs with players from all three sides going at it. Heh, I think my first major upgrade to a pc was because I wanted faster framerates and better detail in AH back shortly after Y2K.
I still find Tuesday to be the most fun day for me, because virtually all of my friends are in one spot, and we're able to play together without limits in a late war setting.
Unhealthy? Meh, maybe in your opinion, but sometimes those kind of things are actually the most fun. You know, fast cars, unsafe sex, a good whiskey...
unhealthy was decided by HTC. I spell it out real slow for you. Big arenas having over 500 people caused poor game play in which many people canceled their subscriptions. Less subscriptions means less money for HT'c fuel bill for his RV8 Spilting the arenas makes for better game play and LESS people cancel their subscriptions which means MORE money for HT to put toward his fuel bill for his RV8. Seeing HT runs the company, and we are taking about HIS money, I'm thinking he can decide whats unhealthy and whats not.
If you open them both up, what is the complaint HTC would receive? If you can get into either one, WHAT WOULD BE THE PROBLEM? :D
the complaint would be that the 100 people couldn't get into the arena with 500 people. I'll try to make this easy to figure out too.... old way 100 people complaining, new way only a few people complaining. HTC doesn't have to listen to so many complaints.
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unhealthy was decided by HTC. I spell it out real slow for you. Big arenas having over 500 people caused poor game play in which many people canceled their subscriptions. Less subscriptions means less money for HT'c fuel bill for his RV8 Spilting the arenas makes for better game play and LESS people cancel their subscriptions which means MORE money for HT to put toward his fuel bill for his RV8. Seeing HT runs the company, and we are taking about HIS money, I'm thinking he can decide whats unhealthy and whats not.
the complaint would be that the 100 people couldn't get into the arena with 500 people. I'll try to make this easy to figure out too.... old way 100 people complaining, new way only a few people complaining. HTC doesn't have to listen to so many complaints.
Ok, I'll go your speed
(http://i411.photobucket.com/albums/pp193/dmbear/snails3.jpg)
I'll refer to the actual #'s that started this post...
271/100 orange
97/150 blue
Tell me again why Orange should be locked.
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Because there are only 97 people in blue, all of which I'm sure are pissin and moaning that they can't get into orange....much like you. Give the arenas a few mins and the numbers will start to even out again. Your not complaining that you "don't have a choice", your complaining the "you can't fly in orange". The idea is to have each arena grow in population evenly so there isn't one arena that has the bigger cooler crowd in.
You were crying yesterday about how you couldn't get into orange......
btw
orange 209/100
blue 107/250
:rolleyes:
....that was about when I logged in to blue. I flew for 5 hours, helped capture a base, helped save one of our CVs, helped defend a few bases, shot down a buff formation trying to score potato....err pork our ammo factory, and had a bunch of fun fights. Those cap numbers didn't bother me a bit. Seems to me your the one missing out on the fun.
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I don't know why you have to ask. I would like to be in the arena with the most players. If that arena is "FULL" I would happily go to the other. The fact that the definition of "FULL" changes is what I don't like.
Hmm I give this 90 Krusties on the BS scale.
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Because there are only 97 people in blue, all of which I'm sure are pissin and moaning that they can't get into orange....much like you. Give the arenas a few mins and the numbers will start to even out again. Your not complaining that you "don't have a choice", your complaining the "you can't fly in orange". The idea is to have each arena grow in population evenly so there isn't one arena that has the bigger cooler crowd in.
You were crying yesterday about how you couldn't get into orange......
....that was about when I logged in to blue. I flew for 5 hours, helped capture a base, helped save one of our CVs, helped defend a few bases, shot down a buff formation trying to score potato....err pork our ammo factory, and had a bunch of fun fights. Those cap numbers didn't bother me a bit. Seems to me your the one missing out on the fun.
Ok, I get it. You are going to keep telling me I am pissing and moaning instead of having fun, You even gave us all a great summary of your fun time. You're story is that of a great cartoon warrior, and for that... :salute
But here's your flaw. You now state in the above that the 97 in blue must all be pissing and moaning like me, but that goes against your claim that the arena caps keep the complaints to only a few.
the complaint would be that the 100 people couldn't get into the arena with 500 people. I'll try to make this easy to figure out too.... old way 100 people complaining, new way only a few people complaining. HTC doesn't have to listen to so many complaints.
Some of us are still wondering why we can't get into an areana that is hundreds away from affecting gameplay(according to your magical 500#). So, why keep those 97 outta Orange? that would = ZERO, NADA, ZIP, ZILCH complaints.
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Hmm I give this 90 Krusties on the BS scale.
Well, That helps my cause. :uhoh
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See rule #4
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Tell me again why Orange should be locked.
Simple answer. Because HT said so? Next question please? :rofl
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Some of us are still wondering why we can't get into an areana that is hundreds away from affecting gameplay(according to your magical 500#). So, why keep those 97 outta Orange? that would = ZERO, NADA, ZIP, ZILCH complaints.
I truly do not understand why you are still claiming to wonder why the system is as it is, it has been explained multiple times by many people in this thread, I am starting to assume you do not WISH to understand.
So let us begin with the true facts, there is an optimal number that makes game play the best for aces high.
This number is above 50 and below 500. We can argue where that number is exactly, but it is irrelevant because we have more people playing aces high at the same time then the upper bounds of this number.
When we split arenas, we had gone far above this number to the extent, AH had stopped growing. So some method was needed to start a 2nd arena. The simple method as you propose was tried first. We set both arenas to have a static cap, but 1 arena will fill , before people would start populating the 2nd arena, and the cries were deafening to change something.
The reason we have the floating limits, is simply because it is the quickest way to reach critical mass of the 2nd arena.
The time we chose to do the population , is when the population is growing the quickest , this is to minimize the low number time in the 2nd arena.
So now, if you do not understand , ask a question. If you understand, but do not believe the facts, I do not wish to hear it, because we have facts, you only have guesses.
If you have a NEW idea that has been not tried before please post it and I would be happy to discuss it.
If you wish to hide your wanting a bigger arena with ideas like letting people into a full arena to balance the idea, do not expect a response from me.
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So now, if you do not understand , ask a question. If you understand, but do not believe the facts, I do not wish to hear it, because we have facts, you only have guesses.
New sig material. Thanks Hitech.
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5 bucks says after all that from HiTech we get another :cry in here
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5 bucks says after all that from HiTech we get another :cry in here
I would bet my soul on it.
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I truly do not understand why you are still claiming to wonder why the system is as it is, it has been explained multiple times by many people in this thread, I am starting to assume you do not WISH to understand.
So let us begin with the true facts, there is an optimal number that makes game play the best for aces high.
This number is above 50 and below 500. We can argue where that number is exactly, but it is irrelevant because we have more people playing aces high at the same time then the upper bounds of this number.
When we split arenas, we had gone far above this number to the extent, AH had stopped growing. So some method was needed to start a 2nd arena. The simple method as you propose was tried first. We set both arenas to have a static cap, but 1 arena will fill , before people would start populating the 2nd arena, and the cries were deafening to change something.
The reason we have the floating limits, is simply because it is the quickest way to reach critical mass of the 2nd arena.
The time we chose to do the population , is when the population is growing the quickest , this is to minimize the low number time in the 2nd arena.
So now, if you do not understand , ask a question. If you understand, but do not believe the facts, I do not wish to hear it, because we have facts, you only have guesses.
If you have a NEW idea that has been not tried before please post it and I would be happy to discuss it.
If you wish to hide your wanting a bigger arena with ideas like letting people into a full arena to balance the idea, do not expect a response from me.
Illuminating Post oh great one... :)
Have country based caps been tried, or would the code writing aspect of such a system approach the point of diminishing returns?
Please don't misunderstand, I fully understand the reasoning behind the current cap system. I was suggesting that possibly a tweak or two might be an improvement.
With me, many times I will base what arena I choose to log in to on what particular map is in each arena (we all have our favorites). Second, If there is an oppressively high ENY in one arena I will go to the other. And third, If my "country" is outnumbered by a wide margin I will choose the other. Since I like to have the full range of options as far as what aircraft/vehicles I like to play "in", I rarely log in to the EW/MW arenas.
The purpose of my original post was that on more than one occasion I have faced the choice of ENY 26 or being vastly outnumbered, and wondered if there might be a way to remedy this type of situation
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The purpose of my original post was that on more than one occasion I have faced the choice of ENY 26 or being vastly outnumbered, and wondered if there might be a way to remedy this type of situation
The remedy is simple, remove your choice and not let you fly with an imbalance, because that is exactly what you are asking for.
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Why not have a third MA, maybe using some of the other maps that are already in the FSO or the Axis vs Allies make them avialbile to all the MA's that could thin out the herd a little and allow for more new players to come into the game. This is just a idea I had it might help everybody. :salute
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Why not just leave it alone.
Its fine the way it is.
It may not be perfect, but its home sweet home! :salute
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Why not have a third MA, maybe using some of the other maps that are already in the FSO or the Axis vs Allies make them avialbile to all the MA's that could thin out the herd a little and allow for more new players to come into the game. This is just a idea I had it might help everybody. :salute
they already have this arena, its called the AvA arena. Unfortunately it is under populated. We have plenty of arenas. The problem is with the players. far to many of them MUST HAVE the best and fastest ride other wise they feel they can't compete. Maybe its a confidence problem, maybe its not wanting to take the time to learn. I don't know.
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Hitech I don't have the answer...but I do know who does!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!I'm calling in Zazen!!!!!
<S>
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Why not have a third MA, maybe using some of the other maps that are already in the FSO or the Axis vs Allies make them avialbile to all the MA's that could thin out the herd a little and allow for more new players to come into the game. This is just a idea I had it might help everybody. :salute
Like the EWA and the MWA? Not trying to be an arse but what is really the problem? I mean, how often do you guys have a problem getting into an arena? It happens to me once or twice a week but I can get my squadies to either move to where I am or I fly for a bit and check the numbers latter. Really, how often do you guys encounter this issue?
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Same questions apply. What if both arenas are at 190? Will you be willing to go the third that has 5 guys in it?
I think you're asking the question wrong then. I think you're trying to get at: "How many back-up plans for the back-up plan does a squad need to pull off a successful in-game gathering?".
I'm trying to get my point across that anything more than one back-up plan for a plan gets hopelessly confuseing for something that is supposed to be entertaining (like a multiplayer game).
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I think you're asking the question wrong then. I think you're trying to get at: "How many back-up plans for the back-up plan does a squad need to pull off a successful in-game gathering?".
I'm trying to get my point across that anything more than one back-up plan for a plan gets hopelessly confuseing for something that is supposed to be entertaining (like a multiplayer game).
Bah, you are not answering the question. With those numbers in the arenas you would have been worst off. As I said above. How often does it happen, how long does it last, and how many players are we talking about?
And really, what back up plan? All it takes is a message to the CO telling him that the arena is full but there is room in the other. If is just a game and for fun everyone could move where you are in seconds. That does not happen only when score, rank, orders etc are involved
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I think you're asking the question wrong then. I think you're trying to get at: "How many back-up plans for the back-up plan does a squad need to pull off a successful in-game gathering?".
I'm trying to get my point across that anything more than one back-up plan for a plan gets hopelessly confuseing for something that is supposed to be entertaining (like a multiplayer game).
Generally if I get a SAPP night going or the 80th is hunting, the plan is to go low numbers country, low numbers arena. You help the cause two ways then. The lower arena gets more birds in it, and the low team gets closer to even.
And you get to fly with your buds too.
It's really a simple plan, and easy to put into practice :)
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Can someone explain to me again why they split the arenas? I seemed to have lost the post. It seems that running 1 big server would be cheaper than running 4 small servers. Just my opinion.
i think, dont quote me, it was due to the extreme numbers of subscribers over time, a single server for the MA couldnt handle it, so they split it to the EW,MW and 2 LW arenas to comprimise the increase of players. i think thats what skuzzy said, and im not readin this whole thread to look through
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i think, dont quote me, it was due to the extreme numbers of subscribers over time, a single server for the MA couldnt handle it, so they split it to the EW,MW and 2 LW arenas to comprimise the increase of players. i think thats what skuzzy said, and im not readin this whole thread to look through
wrong ! It was due to what HTC deems an unhealthy arena. The arenas stopped growing, so he split the arena to make more room to grow.
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i think, dont quote me, it was due to the extreme numbers of subscribers over time, a single server for the MA couldnt handle it...
Nope.
Like the poster above, a HUGE arena..one server, much like Eve online, was working fine. But...major whines ensued from having huge furballs and large arenas where you {gasp} had to actually fly for a bit to get to the enemy.
So the smaller, kinder, gentler arenas ensued. You can now up and fight immediately, no planning required... (/sarcasm)
*edit* I like the small maps too, don't get me wrong. And the small populations at times. It just...doesn't feel like a huge war anymore. Forgive me for my sins, but seeing the planning that was involved in big missions involving many players seemed to me like more *cough* healthy than the little fights and smaller arena caps where folks come in for 40minutes and bail...
*edit* and yeah, I understand HTC's game, his rules and all. I just scratch my head when I see more peeps on Tuesday in one arena, than Wens-Thurs in the two LW combined. If it's so "Unhealthy" you'd think that arena would be a ghost town. But nope, quite the opposite. Maybe there's some interest in a permanent "Big Dawg" arena with a large Population...
Hell, make the big arena a rolling plane set with all eras of the war involved. Early, Mid, Late. Let the team that wins vote to advance the arena to the next planeset, or leave it as it is.
Who wouldn't LOVE to see an 800 person furball/fight with all early era warbirds? Yummy!
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Did any of you folks even read Hitech's replies?
LOL you've all the the answers, but none of them are the same as his. And he seemed clear on the reasons.
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Did any of you folks even read Hitech's replies?
LOL you've all the the answers, but none of them are the same as his. And he seemed clear on the reasons.
If you have a NEW idea that has been not tried before please post it and I would be happy to discuss it.
I read. Maybe this is a new idea, maybe not...
I think max sqd # is 32. why not allow squaddies to enter an arena that another squadie is already in? Most squads do not have 32 flying at all times. I usually don't have more than 5 squadies on at any one time.
Sure, if every squad had 32 people on at all times the #'s might be significant enough for this to cause a problem, but if you look at the rosters most squads have less than 10 on most of the time.
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Did any of you folks even read Hitech's replies?
LOL you've all the the answers, but none of them are the same as his. And he seemed clear on the reasons.
I'm sure they read it but ignored it because it's not the answer they're looking for. They will continue to whine and pout demanding HiTech change things and he'll post again saying "No" and they'll ignore it again and the cycle will repeat itself.
ack-ack
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I'm sure they read it but ignored it because it's not the answer they're looking for. They will continue to whine and pout demanding HiTech change things and he'll post again saying "No" and they'll ignore it again and the cycle will repeat itself.
ack-ack
Pouting, whining, demanding? Thought we were dicussing.
Geez, you really know how to contribute to the issue.
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I never understood or agreed with splitting arenas. It has been quite detrimental to community continuity. HT argues that AH subscribership was stagnant and this was a fundamental impetus for growth. There is also the contention that one arena was somehow more conducive to country numerical disparity. While I obviously don't have access to the type of hard data HTC does, I lived and played through it. My subjective observations don't indicate any correlation whatsoever, nor do I really see a substantial increase in the number of players online at any given time. The difference between 500+ in AHI and 700+ players in AHII during prime-time over the course of several years can hardly be contrued as proof positive of the irrefutable success of splitting the arenas. Perhaps without splitting them, we may have had 1500 players nightly? Perhaps splitting arenas squandered what might have otherwise been gained from the marketing effort.
HT is a programmer and no doubt understands the fundamental truth that to firmly establish the cause and effect relationship of a phenomena and the suspected catalyst you must observe them in hermetic isolation from any other potential causal factors. With regard to the split arenas, this was not the case. The arena split occurred in relative temporal proximity to a target market focused marketing campaign, the release and rapid post-release tuning of AHII and the very aggressive implementation of the ENY limiter which was subsequentally watered down somewhat.
The paltry increase in players, mostly of the younger demographic, could more realistically be attributed to the simple fact that home computers of sufficient power to run an aging game like AH are relatively cheap now and in more homes than they were when AHI was cutting edge and they were prohibitively expensive, especially to the younger, non-hobbyists not so financially well endowed as the established niche customers.
What I see since the arenas were split is a lot of country stacking. A country, usually by virtue of a few large squadrons with dubious ulterior motives, will consciously stack one arena, usually to the point of the hard cap for the purpose of resetting it or farming it for captures/score/rank, etc. This is especially obvious earlier in a tour and since the scoring of the LW arenas was segregated from the EW & MW. I also see a lot of people forced to do things they don't find fun, play on maps they don't like, miss playing with friends or some combination of those just because of the arbitrary cap. I see many situations where the cap actually hurts arena balance. For example, Orange has 100 Bish/75 Knights/55 Rooks. I want to join it and fight for Rooks, but I can't because Bish have stacked it and capped it, so the arena cap prevents me from helping balance it..
In general I just can't see any possible way splitting the arenas improves community continuity or enjoyment of the game for anyone. The only reasonable reasons to do it is due to technological & hardware limitations server side or end-user side or very small playing areas where severe player density issues arise. The vague justification that split LW arenas is somehow some sort of "snake oil" for what ailed AH prior just doesn't bear the scrutiny of direct observation. Certainly, if there is some benefit not apparent to the customers, but visible on some spreadsheet at HTC HQ, it's far outweighed by the very blatant negative repercussions...
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Sorry, I didn't have a chance to read this whole lengthy thread but did read HT's responses.
The only thing that gets me about the caps is when I'm FORCED to log into the arena that the Bish are already hoarding in. Why can't I get into the arena where we need help?
I was in Blue tonight. Rooks alone had a 2:1 advantage on us and Knights also had an advantage although not nearly so large. I had more fun there than I have in a long time and isn't that what keeps your subscribers?
And please don't mistake this as a "balance the arenas" statement. I'd just rather have some enemies to try to kill. I can still find the places on the map where I won't get ganged too bad.
As to the old days of months at a time unbalanced arenas... big deal. I just flew though them. Did it in AW, did it here. It always changed over time and the times where we were outnumbered were always some of the best.
Finally, while we have your attention HT, why can't you put only big maps in one arena and only small maps in the other (LW arenas)?
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The remedy is simple, remove your choice and not let you fly with an imbalance, because that is exactly what you are asking for.
In all honesty, you may as well go ahead and do that. Dancing around it with flawed, if well-meaning solutions is a waste of your valuable programming time better spent elsewhere in product development and is not improving your playerbases' enjoyment of this product...
Mull this over though... If players chose to cap out 500 people in one LW arena only going to the second when they were prohibited from entering the first, would a logical person not assume we did that because we actually enjoy higher player density? If player density was an issue that interfered with our individual fun would we not have populated the second arena that was available prior to cap'ing out the first?
Why not just give us freedom of choice and let us decide what we think is fun? You are trying to decide for us at what point player density hampers collective fun with arbitrary "hands-free" floating population caps. People can do all that for you with their feet automatically. You're effectively policing something that we do on our own naturally by virtue of individual hedonistic proclivities. You can't "program" human nature, but if you really work at it you can piss off people by programmatically interfering with their human nature.
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Zazen,
Are you suggesting that letting the mob rule and the horde run amok, because it's human nature, is the way to go?
We joke about sheep in this game, but letting the sheep dictate the way it's played is silly.
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Zazen,
Are you suggesting that letting the mob rule and the horde run amok, because it's human nature, is the way to go?
We joke about sheep in this game, but letting the sheep dictate the way it's played is silly.
Hordelings = easy kills , sounds good too me.
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Zazen,
Are you suggesting that letting the mob rule and the horde run amok, because it's human nature, is the way to go?
We joke about sheep in this game, but letting the sheep dictate the way it's played is silly.
If people didn't enjoy horde wars in general, both arenas would be equally populated and not cap'd. In fact, there would be no reason for cap's at all if there were some magical homogeneous distribution of souls. All splitting the arenas does is create a large number of players hording over a larger area in one vs. the other arena with a smaller number of players hording over a smaller area. It's really just semantics whereby the only real distinction is the deprivation of freedom of choice for the player on several levels.
The current setup allows for several environments other than the LW arena where you can enjoy low player density conditions. It's pretty obvious that the vast majority of the denizens of the LW arenas overwhelmingly enjoy high player density conditions.
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Thought I might throw this in there, I sat in the O'club for 10 min. tring to get into the Orange, so I decided "F it, I'll do a sortie in the other arena." I did that sortie that I wanted, went about 15 min till I died.
Oh last thing before I went into the other arena. It was 272/200 just before I went to do my sortie. here is what it was 15 min. later:
(http://i256.photobucket.com/albums/hh198/mniezelski/maproom.jpg)
This is what pizzes me off, because I got discoed before that and it was 250/300.
Here it is 5 min later: How does it go up, when you cain't even get into the arena?
(http://i256.photobucket.com/albums/hh198/mniezelski/maproom-1.jpg)
Again, another 15 min later. This has been the worse I've ever seen it, I've not been able to get into the Orange for just under 45 minutes now:
(http://i256.photobucket.com/albums/hh198/mniezelski/maproom-2.jpg)
Bosco, I've experienced the same thing you have. Seeing the player numbers increase.
Lately, I've seen something very different. No screen shots. Sorry. But lets say Orange is at 275/250. I'll log out of the game and come back in, and I'll see 275/350 or something like that. Made me wonder if I wasn't seeing on my end the true state of affairs.
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Bosco, I've experienced the same thing you have. Seeing the player numbers increase.
Lately, I've seen something very different. No screen shots. Sorry. But lets say Orange is at 275/250. I'll log out of the game and come back in, and I'll see 275/350 or something like that. Made me wonder if I wasn't seeing on my end the true state of affairs.
You were seeing the true state of affairs.
The dynamic cap of LWO is controlled by LWB and vice versa. When dynamic caps are enabled, one arena's max size increases as soon the other arena player number reaches 70% of it's current capacity.
Example:
Orange 120/100 (indicating that max capacity was recently reduced)
Blue 100/150
Now when Blue reaches 105 players, Orange cap will go up:
Orange 120/200
Blue 105/150
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I think I heard more :cry ing
Where's my 5 bucks!?!
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Zazen13: I am not exactly naive when it comes to creating online flight sims.
As a great case in point in letting the mobs run the game, take a look at my previous game Warbirds. Before I left WB was the top money maker in the Online FS world. Creating a flight sim is not just about the tech side of the game, it is also about KNOWING what the customer wants, being able to learn what the customer wants, and what the customer asks for is NOT necessarily what they want, because very rarely are the 2 things the same.
WB is a great example of giving the vocal minority getting what they think they want. A few quick examples of great WB mistakes after I left.
1. Removing easy mode in the arena with out replacing it with something suitable. The reason the did this is simply players thinking is was unfair to have the easy mode in it. The vocal minority screamed and IEN changed it.
Net result, loss of some players, less new players every day.
2. Players scream that Axis vs Allies is better, WB changes arena configurations to push players to axis v allies.
Net result, loss of some players, less new players every day.
3. Players state the flight model is not realistic and should be change, IEN changes many things like roll inertia with out really having a true math guy who could perform all the physics and understand the real behavior of aircraft.
Net result, loss of some players, less new players every day.
4. Many more players say the guns are wrong, IEN changes guns many times, also starts doing many changes on flight model causing the players frustration on having to relearn there plane.
Net result, loss of some players, less new players every day.
These are just a few of the choices similar to choices we make at HTC every day, and drastic changes like the arena split are things we do not take lightly. Zazan13 ,do you really think I am so naive that you believe I do not consider advertising into my thoughts about what causes AH to grow and not to grow? When I started AH, I had 0 players, WB had large numbers, now I have a large number of players, and WB is almost empty every night. I have now twice created the top online flight sim, do you really think this is only because I look at things from a program perspective, and I happened to get lucky twice?
My point is, I listen to all the things my customers have to say. Some times players think of very original ideas, and I am happy to implement them. Some times we come up with ideas, try them, and think, what the hell was I thinking, that idea sucked.
The one thing I and Doug have become very good at, is discerning the difference between what players as a whole ask for and what they really want.
HiTech
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Fine then. We ask for the He 111, and we want it! :pray The BoB is coming up, after all! ;)
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Gava, they didn't give us HE-111 since it started! what make you think they'll give in now!
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It's pretty obvious that the vast majority of the denizens of the LW arenas overwhelmingly enjoy high dense player conditions.
Thought I'd correct that last line :)
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For me the current arena look like a giant H2H I rarely see more than 4 player on my side or the opposite.
Can you imagine flying 20 min and not having even one icon contact ?
It happened to me several time since the split, as a consequence I'm flying less because of real life but mostly because AH is now boring.
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The remedy is simple, remove your choice and not let you fly with an imbalance, because that is exactly what you are asking for.
Point Taken...
I do not wish to minimize the efforts you have made to make the AH experience as much fun as possible. Kudos to you and all that have contributed to the success Aces High enjoys!
I understand that there is a trade off between what the "mob" is clamoring for and what will actually work out and increase the number of customers wanting to use your product. More importantly, NOT doing something that will drive players away...
If the choice is not flying or flying with an imbalance I would invariably choose the latter <S>. Numeric ebb and flow is a fact of life... I understand this! Perhaps if I had a better understanding of how the system as it is now constituted functions, I could make better informed suggestions!
I still believe that this "game" is the best entertainment value on the planet and as I have said before, I will quit Aces High when the wife pulls my credit card from my cold dead fingers!
If I didn't care about Aces High I wouldn't bother to spend the time "talking" about ways to possibly improve it!
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Personally i like the arena caps the way they are due to the fact when i cant fly in the arena i want i make it my training time and fly in the DA or TA. Then i try later to get into the most populated arena or fly with squadies. I dont think ive ever had to try to get in to high pop arena for more then 10mins, but either way im in a large enough squad that there will most likely be squadies in both arenas. The only night that presents a problem is squad night so we will drop what we are doing in one arena and move to the other for population problems. This is a game that i enjoy very much and im not gonna whine cuz i cant get into one arena when there are 6 others that i can get into. This of course is IMHO. <S>
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For me the current arena look like a giant H2H I rarely see more than 4 player on my side or the opposite.
Can you imagine flying 20 min and not having even one icon contact ?
It happened to me several time since the split, as a consequence I'm flying less because of real life but mostly because AH is now boring.
Shirley you're not serious? :huh
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Point Taken...
I do not wish to minimize the efforts you have made to make the AH experience as much fun as possible. Kudos to you and all that have contributed to the success Aces High enjoys!
I understand that there is a trade off between what the "mob" is clamoring for and what will actually work out and increase the number of customers wanting to use your product. More importantly, NOT doing something that will drive players away...
If the choice is not flying or flying with an imbalance I would invariably choose the latter <S>. Numeric ebb and flow is a fact of life... I understand this! Perhaps if I had a better understanding of how the system as it is now constituted functions, I could make better informed suggestions!
I still believe that this "game" is the best entertainment value on the planet and as I have said before, I will quit Aces High when the wife pulls my credit card from my cold dead fingers!
If I didn't care about Aces High I wouldn't bother to spend the time "talking" about ways to possibly improve it!
I, an admitted mobster lemming moron, second this sentiment.
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I think Snailman went over a portion of how it works:
You were seeing the true state of affairs.
The dynamic cap of LWO is controlled by LWB and vice versa. When dynamic caps are enabled, one arena's max size increases as soon the other arena player number reaches 70% of it's current capacity.
Example:
Orange 120/100 (indicating that max capacity was recently reduced)
Blue 100/150
Now when Blue reaches 105 players, Orange cap will go up:
Orange 120/200
Blue 105/150
TY Lusche
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Shirley you're not serious? :huh
try between 21:00 and 22:00 CET (UTC+1)
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Maybe a dumb question or dumb scenario. Was just curious if more countries have ever been tested?
Was thinking maybe 5 or even 7 countries?
I know starting out it was 4 countries.(red, green, gold, purple)
Then it was two in warbirds. (axis v allies)
Just thinking of.... one arena, large maps, 5 countries?
How would that work? anyone??
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Yes, many different numbers of countries have been attempted. HTC found 3 to be the best for balance. A search would find posts of his stating this. You'll know its him by the bad spelling, at least before someone gave him firefox with the built in spellchecker.
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Thanks for the "411" Lusche/snailman... You can't be TOO well informed
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Zazen13: I am not exactly naive when it comes to creating online flight sims.
HiTech
No doubt, I would never even insinuate that you are. You are one of my most highly regarded small shop game developers, followed closely by a company called Stardock and then Paradox Interactive. I also would never expect or even want a developer to react exclusively, in knee-jerk fashion, to sentiments expressed on message forums which are notoriously limited in their reflection of overall player opinion. Take the time to sit and watch the MA, you will notice players choose to congregate in large clusters, this is human nature at work, it is where your product shines. That's not going to be "squeaky wheels" you're seeing, that's going to be the will and desire for certain forms of gameplay over other less desired forms.
Game developers tend to fall into the pitfall of looking at numbers and drawing erroneous conclusions about their community's desires and growth with rose colored glasses rather than direct observation of their behavior which is a reflection of what players find fun about the product or an indication of what they do not find fun. Developers always looks at + growth as a "YES" vote for all of their changes. What they don't see is the possibility that one or several of their changes caused what would have otherwise been a 25% growth to be only a 10% growth due to subscriber losses and poorer new player retention.
As a case in point for your product. Rather than expend programming resources trying to coerce and restrict players in an effort to organize them differently against their nature, modify the game to achieve that in a natural and voluntary way. For example, rather than cap'ing arenas to artificially "spread out" players, more fully utilize the large maps by creating a compelling reasons to spread out a bit by diversifying goals and objectives within the map's strategic context thereby creating more natural focal points of conflict and areas of contention. Your huge maps have enough play area for 3,000 people, we all choose to play in just 3 sectors because we enjoy the high player density and there's really no compelling reason to spread out with the current "mickey mouse" strategic system.
In my personal opinion, the heavy handed approach of splitting arenas and hard cap'ing them is more or less a cop out and a cheap substitute for the implimentation of innovate design concepts creatively composed to use human nature to achieve design goals rather than fight human nature, which is like pissing into the wind. I can think of 43 ways just off the top of my head to encourage more fluid player distribution while at the same time increasing player choices and freedoms rather than inhibiting them. Admittedly I am not a programmer, the implementation may exceed available resources or be impractical in some other way. But, your product is so well designed at its core and the infrastructure is already in place that to build upon it to achieve the same goals you strive for with arena caps would almost be trivial to accomplish from a purely logistical perspective. It seems a disservice to your product and your community to not endeavor to methodically do so as time and resources allow.
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Sometimes you can out think yourself Zazen :)
The sheep will follow the sheep
It means HTC has to be the shepard and direct the flock in the best overall direction.
I believe you are also filtering it through your own preference of play which is much more about being the wolf above the sheep and living that way.
HTC has to consider all the different players and playing styles in the game. And no this isn't war, so creating some balance is part of putting some fairness in the game.
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Sometimes you can out think yourself Zazen :)
The sheep will follow the sheep
It means HTC has to be the shepard and direct the flock in the best overall direction.
I believe you are also filtering it through your own preference of play which is much more about being the wolf above the sheep and living that way.
HTC has to consider all the different players and playing styles in the game. And no this isn't war, so creating some balance is part of putting some fairness in the game.
What I'm saying is if you have to programmatically fight human nature that's a clear indication your design is flawed. A perfectly designed game would use human nature to channel and funnel players to achieve gameplay balance objectives while at the same time increasing freedom of choice and playstyle options rather than inhibit them...
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What I'm saying is if you have to programmatically fight human nature that's a clear indication your design is flawed. A perfectly designed game would use human nature to channel and funnel players to achieve gameplay balance objectives while at the same time increasing freedom of choice and playstyle options rather than inhibit them...
Not really. Relying on human nature to achieve gameplay balance is a flawed idea since not everyone has the same notion of what the balance should be. In my company's games, if we would let the players dictate what the balance should be, there would be no clear notion as to what that balance is and the result would be a very flawed and unbalanced game. There has to be a balance and sometimes that balance requires the developers to design it into the game. Ask any game designer or developer that has worked on an online game and they will tell you the same thing.
HiTech used a good example with Warbirds and what happened to it after he left. You really can't get a better example of what happens in an online game where you allow the player base to make most of the game design and balance decisions.
On the other hand, if you ignore your player base and don't listen to any of the feedback, you're going to get the same result. Age of Conan is an example of that and only recently have they started to listen to their player base but sadly, the damage done by the previous game design team may be too great in the eyes of the community to successfully turn around that game. AoC went from a 750k+ paid subscriber base at launch and dropped to around a current 400k paid subscriber base. They lost a 1/4 of a million subscribers in less than 3 months because the development team would not listen to the player base.
It's a fine line sometimes and one that gets ignored to often by both developers and the community.
ack-ack
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What I'm saying is if you have to programmatically fight human nature that's a clear indication your design is flawed. A perfectly designed game would use human nature to channel and funnel players to achieve gameplay balance objectives while at the same time increasing freedom of choice and playstyle options rather than inhibit them...
Human nature is to survive. Flying in the biggest pack and avoiding opposition will ensure this. Is this what you are advocating?
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Hmm...
Tuesday, Titanic, now has 700 people in it.
On a weekday evening.
What other weekday evening Mon-Thurs has a combined total of 700 for the LW arenas? I can't recall seeing 350+ per arena during primetime PST during the week, ever.
Maybe they should get out of that big arena. It's darn unhealth for 'em! :P I feel like I'm tellin' kids to get off the lawn and come play indoors on the Nintendo because it's better for 'em.
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I Love Zazen!...Can I question the basic premis that an unbalanced game is unhealthy????
Churchill didn't call up Hitler and ask for a fair fight....
<S> 999000
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Human nature is to survive. Flying in the biggest pack and avoiding opposition will ensure this. Is this what you are advocating?
Actually, most are motivated by fun and adrenalin. Run down the roster one evening. It's obvious survival is very low on the list of priorities for 95% of the players.
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I Love Zazen!...Can I question the basic premis that an unbalanced game is unhealthy????
Churchill didn't call up Hitler and ask for a fair fight....
Churchill and Hitler didn't play a game...
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Actually, most are motivated by fun and adrenalin. Run down the roster one evening. It's obvious survival is very low on the list of priorities for 95% of the players.
Nope, if it were, you wouldn't see the map look the way it does.
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HiTech used a good example with Warbirds and what happened to it after he left. You really can't get a better example of what happens in an online game where you allow the player base to make most of the game design and balance decisions.
ack-ack
I think you misunderstood my post. I am not saying let players make gameplay balance and design decisions. I am saying change the design so that gameplay balance is naturally achieved by the players without artificial coercion.
For a general example, if you want to decrease player density while maintaining freedom of choice and community cohesion, don't amputate half the players and toss them into a separate isolated environment. Instead create interesting and diversely compelling strategic objectives that intice them to focus on multiple regions simultaneously within a single unified playing environment.
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Instead create interesting and diversely compelling strategic objectives that intice them to focus on multiple regions simultaneously within a single unified playing environment.
One of the best replies. Ever. QFT.
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I Love Zazen!...Can I question the basic premis that an unbalanced game is unhealthy????
Churchill didn't call up Hitler and ask for a fair fight....
<S> 999000
Triple 9's, that's a silly comment. This isn't a war, it's a game.
If you really believe that, are you willing to be a Val pilot flying of Rabaul in 44, totally outnumbered and out gunned, because in wartime the pilots had no choice as to the role they had or the plane they flew? Are you willing to go where you are told, and not be able to design or choose your own mission? I kinda think your money might go back on your pocket if you couldn't fly the plane you like into a situation you like.
If you want it part of the way you gotta take it all the way.
But again, since this isn't war, but a game using cartoon airplanes modeled on WW2 planes, you have to include some balance to let everyone have some fun.
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Zazen,
Can you give a specific example of how you'd change a map, or the game, to accomplish your following statement?
Instead create interesting and diversely compelling strategic objectives that [entice] them to focus on multiple regions simultaneously within a single unified playing environment.
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Zazen,
Can you give a specific example of how you'd change a map, or the game, to accomplish your following statement?
I can give you several of my favorites, I've suggested some of these before.
-Give factories meaning, make their effects fairly profound, more diverse and wide-ranging, but relatively short-term so a given player during a typical 2-3 hour play session can experience the breadth of how it plays out, from its defense to destruction, to rejuvenation for a continuity of experience.
-Give base sizes meaning as follows, tweaking map layouts to create focal points and logical distribution of field types as necessary:
Large bases (w/ 3 vehicle hangers) = any aircraft can takeoff including 4 engine bombers.
Medium bases (w/ 2 vehicle hangers) = No 4 engine bombers.
Small bases (one vehicle hanger) = No twin engine level bombers, twin engine dive bombers and fighters are ok (anything that can use "attack" mode)
-Give supply interdiction meaning. I find it ironic when promotional clips show strafing trains and supply convoys and such, but in reality it has almost no impact or effect on gameplay, so almost never actually happens in the game.
-Make task groups far more durable, larger and regenerate more quickly from damage relative to its proximity to a friendly port, making taking ports more important in general. Make their antiaircraft fire far more effective vs. large, slow moving, higher alt targets and less so against fast, small, lower alt targets.
-Make vehicle spawn points to towns from its parent field's VH's as described in base differentiation above. Tweak the range of fields from their towns accordingly.
-Give the whole zone base infrastructure already in place some real teeth to go hand in hand with making factories far more important, make only large airfields eligible to be zone fields.
-Make plane and country ENY factors also apply to the points category in all 4 categories of the ranking system to encourage "high efficiency" and high playtime players to keep the sides relatively close numerically.
I'll let you guys mull those over, I have a whole notebook full. Enjoy.
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-Make task groups far more durable, larger and regenerate more quickly from damage relative to its proximity to a friendly home port. Make their antiaircraft fire far more effective vs. large, slow moving, higher alt targets and less so against fast, small, lower alt targets.
This one is my favorite. Anything that stops the high-alt B-24s and low-alt Lancstukas from hitting carriers would be a big plus. :aok
I know someone's gonna say, defend the carrier yourself. In fact, we do! Eventually one of the bombers in the wave upon wave of Lancs/B-24s/B-26s makes it through. :lol
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This one is my favorite. Anything that stops the high-alt B-24s and low-alt Lancstukas from hitting carriers would be a big plus. :aok
I know someone's gonna say, defend the carrier yourself. In fact, we do! Eventually one of the bombers in the wave upon wave of Lancs/B-24s/B-26s makes it through. :lol
A single fighter may have a chance to ultimately bring down a heavy formation of bombers. But, in general, the bomber loses a drone, the fighter gets killed/runs out of ammo/or gets oil leak. Meanwhile the bomber proceeds to sink the cv, all but immune from AA even at 8-12k
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Burning my perks and getting out for awhile fellas! Been fun!
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11pm PST and STILL Titanic Tuesday has over 600 people in it.
So bad, STOP IT! IT's BAD for you!
:rolleyes:
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11pm PST and STILL Titanic Tuesday has over 600 people in it.
So bad, STOP IT! IT's BAD for you!
:rolleyes:
It's where AH shines. There's been reasonable flight sim fascimilies that offer a comparable quality product, but they are geared to fewer players in lower concentration, IL2 for example. For most players however, that does not engage the imagination and capture the essence of the chaotic maelstrom only a highly populated furball frenzy can provide. This is the exact situation where AH's design mechanics shine in all their glory.
So, it's decided AH's forte and players affinities are practically one in the same, but at the same time a wedge is sought to drive them apart...It's kind of like biting the hand that feeds you...
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11pm PST and STILL Titanic Tuesday has over 600 people in it.
So bad, STOP IT! IT's BAD for you!
:rolleyes:
And the hordes were avoiding each other like the plague. If that's shining, it's pretty dull.
600 people, avoiding fighting each other isn't something to be proud of.
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And the hordes were avoiding each other like the plague. If that's shining, it's pretty dull.
Don't know WHAT arena you were flying in, unless you were doing C47 runs somewhere. FBDred had us running all over with missions, the last one was a pair of bases coordinated with bombers, Jabo's and ground.
Guppy needs some luv, I guess.
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Don't know WHAT arena you were flying in, unless you were doing C47 runs somewhere. FBDred had us running all over with missions, the last one was a pair of bases coordinated with bombers, Jabo's and ground.
Guppy needs some luv, I guess.
I was at the Port where Dred and company were fighting no one until the carrier came back up. I was so bored i was out trolling in a B25C at that point. Ended up logging for lack of combat. 6 guys hitting one F4F or Seafire trying to defend is not my idea of a good fight.
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I can give you several of my favorites, I've suggested some of these before.
-Give factories meaning, make their effects fairly profound, more diverse and wide-ranging, but relatively short-term so a given player during a typical 2-3 hour play session can experience the breadth of how it plays out, from its defense to destruction, to rejuvenation for a continuity of experience.
People don't bother to defend bases half the time, what make you think anyone would bother with a factory? Once the supplies run out, most would either log, or run to the BBS to complain about not having ammo or radar. This is a game, NOT a war simulation. Most play it for fun, not to relive a war.
-Give base sizes meaning as follows, tweaking map layouts to create focal points and logical distribution of field types as necessary:
Large bases (w/ 3 vehicle hangers) = any aircraft can takeoff including 4 engine bombers.
Medium bases (w/ 2 vehicle hangers) = No 4 engine bombers.
Small bases (one vehicle hanger) = No twin engine level bombers, twin engine dive bombers and fighters are ok (anything that can use "attack" mode)
This one has merit and would slow the dive bombing buffs a bit. The problem with it would be the out cry of everyone waiting on the maps to be reworked. I know limiting the planes is just a setting, but the lay out of the fields as they are now would have to be reworked.
-Give supply interdiction meaning. I find it ironic when promotional clips show strafing trains and supply convoys and such, but in reality it has almost no impact or effect on gameplay, so almost never actually happens in the game.
It does effect it, but again your looking to push some boring tactic. While in a war hampering supplies was a dibilitating thing, here in a game its just something to shoot at that people get quickly bored with.
-Make task groups far more durable, larger and regenerate more quickly from damage relative to its proximity to a friendly port, making taking ports more important in general. Make their antiaircraft fire far more effective vs. large, slow moving, higher alt targets and less so against fast, small, lower alt targets.
This one is good too. The CV groups are far too easy to take out. Both base defense and cv defense fall under the "thats not fun" side of things due mostly to the hording, but add to that the gaming of the game with dive bombing buffs it really takes the fun out of it.
-Make vehicle spawn points to towns from its parent field's VH's as described in base differentiation above. Tweak the range of fields from their towns accordingly.
Re-working maps just for this would be wasted resources. Most towns are close enough to the base that its only a couple minute drive as it is. The problem is that most of the availible kills will be at the base so nobody bother to drive out to the town to defend it. Zaz, even your write up on how to use an osti never says anything about how and where to defend a town. :D Again, defending the town falls into that "boring job" category
-Give the whole zone base infrastructure already in place some real teeth to go hand in hand with making factories far more important, make only large airfields eligible to be zone fields.
Again, people would rather complain about not having the supplies than defend the factories. It's a game, not war
-Make plane and country ENY factors also apply to the points category in all 4 categories of the ranking system to encourage "high efficiency" and high playtime players to keep the sides relatively close numerically.
I'd need a bit more information on this one, with out all the big fancy colorful words :D not sure what you are suggesting with this one.
I'll let you guys mull those over, I have a whole notebook full. Enjoy.
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Don't know WHAT arena you were flying in, unless you were doing C47 runs somewhere. FBDred had us running all over with missions, the last one was a pair of bases coordinated with bombers, Jabo's and ground.
Guppy needs some luv, I guess.
And what were you guys hitting in these missions? Places where the fight was raging, or other places that were "easier" to hit and capture? When a big group of guys decides to go this route, there isn't much a couple lone defenders can do to stop it. The hordes on the other side won't go at you either, because that isn't easy, so they run around looking for the soft spot on your side to hit.
What you get when the numbers reach a critical mass is just one giant circlejerk of hordes that never really collide. They do on occasion, but usually by chance, not by intent. When this happens its awesome. Sadly it's the rarity, not the norm.
This kind of play is definately appealing to newer players . Even veteran players who value teamwork and goal oriented strat play. But when the roving hordes become the norm, how can there possibly be any semblance of balance in gameplay? On the macro level there might appear to be with the ebb and flow of the base swings, but on the micro level all you have is a ton of gangs picking on a few enemies. This is where the problem lies. The game is played by individuals, on the micro level not the macro. Sure the guys in hordes playing whack a mole are having a ball, but for the guys who try to stop them it gets old quick.
If the bigger squads chose to face each other we wouldn't have this problem. We all know that isn't the case though. The path of least resistance is usually taken, with few notable exceptions. That's why the NOE raid is by far the most common type of mission. Sneak in, get it quick, the rinse and repeat ad nausem. Fun for some? Sure. Good gameplay? Hell no.
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zazen13
I think you misunderstood my post. I am not saying let players make gameplay balance and design decisions. I am saying change the design so that gameplay balance is naturally achieved by the players without artificial coercion.
All game play design is "Artificial coercion" all the items you suggest are still "Artificial" I think what you are saying is a carrot is better than a stick, and This I would agree with, but at times when the carrot does not work do to basic human nature, force must be applied.
On your list of things to change, I see nothing that has anything to do with affecting arena size,only things you wish were different? When I look at your suggestions I see most of them would be detrimental to game play, and have 0 impact on why split arenas were put in place.
HiTech
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And what were you guys hitting in these missions? Places where the fight was raging, or other places that were "easier" to hit and capture? When a big group of guys decides to go this route, there isn't much a couple lone defenders can do to stop it. The hordes on the other side won't go at you either, because that isn't easy, so they run around looking for the soft spot on your side to hit.
What you get when the numbers reach a critical mass is just one giant circlejerk of hordes that never really collide. They do on occasion, but usually by chance, not by intent. When this happens its awesome. Sadly it's the rarity, not the norm.
This kind of play is definately appealing to newer players . Even veteran players who value teamwork and goal oriented strat play. But when the roving hordes become the norm, how can there possibly be any semblance of balance in gameplay? On the macro level there might appear to be with the ebb and flow of the base swings, but on the micro level all you have is a ton of gangs picking on a few enemies. This is where the problem lies. The game is played by individuals, on the micro level not the macro. Sure the guys in hordes playing whack a mole are having a ball, but for the guys who try to stop them it gets old quick.
If the bigger squads chose to face each other we wouldn't have this problem. We all know that isn't the case though. The path of least resistance is usually taken, with few notable exceptions. That's why the NOE raid is by far the most common type of mission. Sneak in, get it quick, the rinse and repeat ad nausem. Fun for some? Sure. Good gameplay? Hell no.
This sums up nicely how I feel about this whole thing.
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I didn't like the arena caps at first, and I still don't like them.
No amount of ranting or raving though is going to change HTC's mind.
In my opinion the only way to force HTC to listen, is to hit them where it hurts - in the pocket. The problem is that they won't be worried about losing 1 or 2 subscribers; it would have to be "en masse" and I certainly don't see that happening and HTC knows it.
Actually whilst writing this post it occured to me that on a positive note, HTC does actually listen, after all we got titanic tuesday, so it's not all bad.
Lastly despite the fact I still dislike the caps I've gotten used to them, so there's no point in getting angry over it... maybe they will rejig the cap limits, to suit prime times all over the globe?
Just my 2p
P.S - I am NOT trying to incite a revolt or boycott against HTC :p
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P.S - I am NOT trying to incite a revolt or boycott against HTC :p
So what are you suggesting? Having tea and crumpet time instead of AH?
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So what are you suggesting? Having tea and crumpet time instead of AH?
thats what i do :aok
come back an hour later and caps have sorted themselves out. no biggie.
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In my opinion the only way to force HTC to listen, is to hit them where it hurts - in the pocket. The problem is that they won't be worried about losing 1 or 2 subscribers; it would have to be "en masse" and I certainly don't see that happening and HTC knows it.
Connery, could it possibly be that before we did the arena split this is what we did see? And just as you say we did respond to it? What you describe is a given, we only respond to what customers really want, and it is not a matter of 1 or 2 leave, it is a matter that more would leave if we had 1 arena.
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Zazen does bring up an interestign perspective of game design and structure....I do see this basic truth STRUCTURE DETERMINING FUNCTION..in many walks of life...working on the local City Planning and zoning board I pointed out to developers that we were creating unhealthy neiborhoods (they looked at me like I was the devil)..ie putting huge homes on postage size lots......Kids don't play outside because the structure ...lack of space to play games as we did as kids. Yards no long have the function of gross moter play areas.
<S> 999000
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All I have is my gameplay experience to go by. What I see is that gameplay is not affected from the arena split. Are you all telling me that all of us mindless sheep magically change our strategies when we go from an arena with 215 to one with 70? Do the evil wolves you all speak of break up becuase there are less of them?
I don't think so. But I do think getting stuck in an arena of 70, while an arena of 215 still could use a few hundred before gameplay is affected sucks.
I wish HTC didn't think letting me go in that arena would ruin it by allowing me and my stupid sheep turd tactics to ruin everyones day.
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All I have is my gameplay experience to go by. What I see is that gameplay is not affected from the arena split.
I would have to disagree with you there 100%. Gameplay is many times better normally than on Titanic Tuesday. I wouldn't fly on Tuesdays if it wasn't my squad night.
Are you all telling me that all of us mindless sheep magically change our strategies when we go from an arena with 215 to one with 70?
Umm... yeah, that's exactly what happens.
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look guys...enough of this.
its going to be HT's way or no way...get use to it...
we want it
we MIGHT get it...depends if he wants to give.
have fun with this :aok
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We??? Why do so many folks say "We"? I'm fine with how it is setup. I fly MW on tuesdays.
So many folks seem to know what "WE" want that I am surprised there are not 5000 WW2 flight sims online.
Keep up the great work HT!
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See rule #4
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... Wonderful, wonderful, wonderful
(http://lolnascar.files.wordpress.com/2008/03/welk.jpg)
Now follow the bouncing ball
Oh... I thought we were playing a game.
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What I see from the arena split is growth and choices. Instead of the very limited one arena. Especially the EW arena, by creating new planes that can only be flown in the EW arena. Small maps that can only be played on in the EW and MW arenas. With 2 LW arenas I would love to see blue lw have a special night. Much like Orange does with titanic Tuesday.
For example the idea u implemented on lw. Allowing only certain bases on the front, on each side, able to be captured. Forced the hordes to meet head on was quite fun. 262 night, make the 262 and 163 at 20-25 perks only. So many choices and not limiting anyone game play, is what I see from the arena split. AH2 has a lot of potential and growth especially in the ew/mw arena.
As for the caps, I deal with it. I would be more tempted to log in blue if it had a different map rotation. Never have the same map playing on both lw arenas. Also would like back the limited bases being able to be captured. Forcing the Horde to meet h2h was a great idea imo. With ew, mw and lw blue having different setups, I think many would flock to those arenas instead of orange. Opening up more slots for the caps on orange is what many would like to see. So lets come up with some ideas on how to make blue more attractive.
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Connery, could it possibly be that before we did the arena split this is what we did see? And just as you say we did respond to it? What you describe is a given, we only respond to what customers really want, and it is not a matter of 1 or 2 leave, it is a matter that more would leave if we had 1 arena.
Yep it's true that could also be a possibility, but I don't ever remember reading on the forums, that this was the primary case for having split arenas or arena caps.
Motto of this entire forum thread is, You can please some of the people some of the time, but you can't please all of the people all of the time.
<S>
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The one thing I and Doug have become very good at, is discerning the difference between what players as a whole ask for and what they really want.
HiTech
Did you ever ask for a beer, but the waiter brought you a milkshake because he is very good discerning the difference between what you ask for and what you really want ?
You guys created a Great game, i find it entertaining after playing 4-5 years, but unfortunately mutilated by arena split and caps.
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I enjoy the split arenas. I honestly was close to canceling my subscription before the split. I gave the split a try and I've found it easier to find the type of engagements I want to fly in.
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All I have is my gameplay experience to go by. What I see is that gameplay is not affected from the arena split. Are you all telling me that all of us mindless sheep magically change our strategies when we go from an arena with 215 to one with 70? Do the evil wolves you all speak of break up becuase there are less of them?
I don't think so. But I do think getting stuck in an arena of 70, while an arena of 215 still could use a few hundred before gameplay is affected sucks.
I wish HTC didn't think letting me go in that arena would ruin it by allowing me and my stupid sheep turd tactics to ruin everyones day.
Looks like its all about you doesn't it? HT has to think about everyone, not just you. He has to make the game enjoyable for as many people as he can, even if that means you can't fly in your favorite arena ( you can if you have a little patience, and wait for the numbers to change) .
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Looks like its all about you doesn't it? HT has to think about everyone, not just you. He has to make the game enjoyable for as many people as he can, even if that means you can't fly in your favorite arena ( you can if you have a little patience, and wait for the numbers to change) .
Ok, Fugitive, you have to approach it that way? Don't get your feathers in a ruffle and start nit picking. I can only give my opinion. I don't claim to know what everyone else wants. If I did, I'd get a response as follows....
We??? Why do so many folks say "We"? I'm fine with how it is setup. I fly MW on tuesdays.
So many folks seem to know what "WE" want that I am surprised there are not 5000 WW2 flight sims online.
Keep up the great work HT!
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I do have to say 1 thing. When someone gets disco's, and the arena is full, it takes much longer than in the past for arena to increase in size. Many squads are running missions and it does take much longer to relogg.
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can't get into your arena and fly with squad? sounds like a perfect oppertunity to hit the DA and learn something for your next MA run.
:salute
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On your list of things to change, I see nothing that has anything to do with affecting arena size,only things you wish were different? When I look at your suggestions I see most of them would be detrimental to game play, and have 0 impact on why split arenas were put in place.
HiTech
Split arenas were put in place to spread players out and encourage a more equitable distribution of force...What better way to spread them out without having to restrict their ability to play together in the same environment than to diversify the relevance and importance of additional and existing infrastructure.
For example, take my two examples of base size and type specialization and factories. Imagine if we had a more meaningful, less hap-hazard and random, distribution of field sizes so that in every 3-5 square sector area there was only one large field, which was also the zone field and the only field capable of launching 4 engine bombers supported by vbases and med/small fields in a loose concentric circle. Then say we have factories that respectively represent production of German/Italian planes, British Planes, US planes, Jap planes, Jets/Rockets, Prop Perk planes, Etc.
Now, imagine the the map living in real-time. One force is attacking your German aircraft factory near the front, another force is attacking your only large field near their British aircraft factory after capturing some of its adjacent supporting fields, while yet another is attacking your only port in another area that is the supply point for two friendly task groups in the vicinity conducting offensive operations. If the port is lost, the task groups will cease to regenerate battle damage..Of course you would also be doing similar things to them elsewhere and likewise the third country.
What would that do to the distribution of force in the MA? It would spread them out, it would rally different subsets of players to different objectives at different times for different reasons, which in and of itself, as an ancillary benefit, would help unify the community. For example, if your German Aircraft factory is under attack, every flier who loves Luftwaffe will rise up like hornets in defense. Similarly, the port being under attack will cause those who like amphibious and seaborne sneak attacks to get involved. The large zone field under attack will cause the "strategists" and the bomber guys to get their freak on...etc...
Suddenly, a map that was once the monotonous repetition of the exact same handful of activities for the exact same reason, in the exact same way, over and over becomes a diverse and intriguing playing surface with a wide variety of strategic considerations and reasons to distribute force in a focused way, but over a plethora of single contentious focal points rather than just 1 or 2. As it is currently on the HUGe maps, there's no compelling reason to really defend anything, so most just look for the biggest fight on the map and just pile on, or gather an overwhelming force to steamroll the vast expanses of undefended portions of the map. The design itself is largely to blame for the problem you are trying to cure with the arena caps, it would be far more logical and rewarding to simply use some imagination and vision to tweak your design.
If you can't see how creative solutions along these lines would be far more interesting and exciting, while at the same time achieving the gameplay goals while pleasing rather than disgruntling your customers, I don't know what else I can tell you...It's as obvious as a dog's balls to me...
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...It's as obvious as a dog's balls to me...
Maybe your just blinded by your own brilliance? The reason we don't have FT on the maps any more is because of the friction between the fighter types, and the land grabber type. Land grabbers continually took FT bases to "get back at" the fighter type because they weren't helping wining the war. What makes you think "every flier who loves Luftwaffe will rise up like hornets in defense"? The fighter type wouldn't defend against the greifers taking FT bases, I don't think that has changed all that much.
I don't believe that the "majority" of the people who play the game are into the "war" thing. Most are into the fights. Whether its in the air, or a GV most people are looking for "kills" of one type or another. Strategy and wining the war are just side lines.
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Even though I miss being able to play with and against everyone at the same time I do like having two LW arenas to choose from.
Whether intentional or not though, the "system" has trained people to go to the Orange arena. I know it has trained me to do so. Here's what I mean:
I log on and the caps look something like this:
Orange 300/450
Blue 250/400
So I go into Blue to see what map is up. I probably already know which big map is in Orange as they don't change that often. I get into Blue and it's not one of the maps I like or there's no good fights or whatever so I log out to go to Orange.
Without a doubt, everytime I do this, when I log back out of Blue the caps look like this:
Orange 300/200
Blue 250/300
So... even though I may sometimes want to play in Blue if some of my more favorite maps are up, I rarely take the chance to even check in to see what maps are up as I KNOW that if I do I'll be locked out of the Orange arena.
So, HT can say what he wants but he has created a system that, intentionally or not, coerces everyone to log into one arena (outside of EW, MW, etc.).
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Split arenas were put in place to spread players out and encourage a more equitable distribution of force...What better way to spread them out without having to restrict their ability to play together in the same environment than to diversify the relevance and importance of additional and existing infrastructure.
This is not why split arenas were put into place. And is why I stated your ideas do not address the problems created by to big of arena.
If you can't see how creative solutions along these lines would be far more interesting and exciting, while at the same time achieving the gameplay goals while pleasing rather than disgruntling your customers, I don't know what else I can tell you...It's as obvious as a dog's balls to me...
Is it possible you are seeing what would really happen incorrectly, and only view things from the perspective of how YOU think the game should be played?
Now, imagine the the map living in real-time. One force is attacking your German aircraft factory near the front, another force is attacking your only large field near their British aircraft factory after capturing some of its adjacent supporting fields, while yet another is attacking your only port in another area that is the supply point for two friendly task groups in the vicinity conducting offensive operations. If the port is lost, the task groups will cease to regenerate battle damage..Of course you would also be doing similar things to them elsewhere and likewise the third country.
Zazen13: In your justification for your ideas, you have made the classic player idea game design mistake, you envision how you want it to be played, and not looked at how it really will be played.
A classic example of this was done in AW with a 1 life per day arena. This on the surface sounds like a great idea. Described as you would describe it, Imagine arena where the enemy became real , because if you died, you could not fly again for 1 day. Imagine the sweat this would cause you and the real fear. It would be almost real to life.
Now to how it really was played. Since you if you died you were finished for the night, living was much more important than getting a kill.
Since this was the case, there was no reason to attack some one if you did not have the advantage. So with everyone trying to run if they did not have an advantage, almost all the time was spent chasing or running from people and not fighting. While spending the night hunting for 1 kill might be fun to some, it is not what the majority of players want.
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I don't believe that the "majority" of the people who play the game are into the "war" thing. Most are into the fights. Whether its in the air, or a GV most people are looking for "kills" of one type or another. Strategy and wining the war are just side lines.
I'm not arguing with you there. But, in my example what we would be doing is creating "war" reasons for more fighting and fighting for the "war" in several different places, at the same time, for multiple reasons. So, instead of having the "war" and the "fights" occurring in 1 or 2 places, we will have it occurring at 8-10 places...Currently on a HUGE maps 90% of the playing surface is ignored, 90% of the players are concentrated into 10% of the map in a giant glob, the other 10% are roaming the empty 90% of the map in a milk/vulch horde. My little scenario would fix that.
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Now to how it really was played. Since you if you died you were finished for the night, living was much more important than getting a kill.
Since this was the case, there was no reason to attack some one if you did not have the advantage. So with everyone trying to run if they did not have an advantage, almost all the time was spent chasing or running from people and not fighting. While spending the night hunting for 1 kill might be fun to some, it is not what the majority of players want.
Ok, let's apply this same logic to your current game design. Currently, and especially on HUGE maps, which predominate the rotation, there is no compelling reason to defend or attack multiple bases or areas simultaneously in focused, but less numerous concentrations of force. With so many fields, in the context of one player's typical 2-3 hour play session, it is extremely unlikely enough fields, of the vast number, of equally minor individual significance, could be lost or taken to have any real strategic impact or precipitate a reset. So, without any compelling reason to diversify or spread out, players tend to conglomerate in a giant blob in a very finite geographic area. Those that do not choose to do that form a single overwhelming force to "cherry" undefended bases throughout the other vacant 90% of the playing area.
That is really where the game design fails in creating a more diverse, wide ranging possibility of experience for the players and more equitable gameplay balance. You can't blame the players, because they are just doing what is the most reasonable thing to do given the design. Change the design, the substrate or template upon which the players are superimposed and you immediately alter the entire dynamic in deliberate and positive ways. In this way you organize the players to fulfil your gameplay goals without restriction or heavy-handed, divisive measures, such as your decision to split your relatively small player base in half.
To be honest, I love HTC, I hold HTC is great esteem. But, if there is one area you make an 'F' it is in visionary game design. Since its inception AH has not really had any fundamental strategic gameplay design enhancements, additions or augmentations. AH is more or less just Airwar with a few twists, glaring omissions and better graphics. Updates primarily consist of cookie cutter additions of a plane or two and a vehicle, with a few minor, mostly graphical, bug fixes and UI tweaks. The core infrastructure of the game has not been altered or enhanced in any significant way since inception. The elements in place since the beginning, such as factories, the zone concept, supply infrastructure and airfields types have been relegated to an insignificant role, rarely if ever a consideration in day-to-day gameplay.
This is a squandered opportunity to enhance the game while at the same time going a long way to achieving desired gameplay objectives without negative coercion. To this point, from AH1 beta to the present, the vast majority, if not all of your major changes, have been to artifically manipulate or inflict through arbitrary punitive penalties, not directly associated with actual gameplay elements, coercive force upon your players to behave differently with limited success. I suggest you try the implimentation of some creative and imaginative design changes to achieve the same objectives while enhancing the scope and depth of your product at the same time.
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Well since we are handing out report cards:
HTC: A+, otherwise you wouldn't be getting my money
Zazen posts: C+, too many words for such little substance.
This thread in general: D-, we've been through this conversation far too many times.
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Well since we are handing out report cards:
HTC: A+, otherwise you wouldn't be getting my money
Zazen posts: C+, too many words for such little substance.
This thread in general: D-, we've been through this conversation far too many times.
Bongaroo brown-nosing: A+
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Ok, let's apply this same logic to your current game design. Currently, and especially on HUGE maps, which predominate the rotation, there is no compelling reason to defend or attack multiple bases or areas simultaneously in focused, but less numerous concentrations of force... So, without any compelling reason to diversify or spread out, players tend to conglomerate in a giant blob in a very finite geographic area. Those that do not choose to do that form a single overwhelming force to "cherry" undefended bases throughout the other vacant 90% of the playing area.
Hmmm... I don't know what big maps you are playing on but I see fights large and small scattered all over the big maps. The only playing area not being used might be that which is deep behind the lines.
Last night I was in Orange. Both Rooks and Knights had been fighting Bish while largely leaving one another alone. I could have upped at any Bish base and been in a fight within a few minutes and that's anywhere in the Bish territory.
I think the big maps do exactly the oppostie of what you claim. They give players every reason to spread out and provide far greater diversity of gameplay than the small maps do.
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Last night I was in Orange. Both Rooks and Knights had been fighting Bish while largely leaving one another alone. I could have upped at any Bish base and been in a fight within a few minutes and that's anywhere in the Bish territory.
You are citing an example from the relatively anomalous situation of extremely disproportionate distribution of force. That extreme expression of how forces can be arrayed is not the norm. Had all three countries been attacking and defending each other in roughly equal proportion, as is usually the case, there would not be such a multitude of significant points of contact between opposing forces...
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You are citing an example from the relatively anomalous situation of extremely disproportionate distribution of force. That extreme expression of how forces can be arrayed is not the norm. Had all three countries been attacking and defending each other in roughly equal proportion, as is usually the case, there would not be such a multitude of significant points of contact between opposing forces...
Even if all three countries are fighting one another in equal force, there are still usually fights along the entire length of the front lines. Granted some may be significantly larger than others. The only real exceptions to this are where distances between opposing front line bases make it impractical, although typically this is caused by water and the appearance of a CV is simply a matter of time.
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Zazen,
What BaldEagl described, happens frequently enough to not be an anomaly in my opinion. I'd say that it occurs approximately 15% of the times I log in, either to the country I'm flying for, or one of the other sides.Granted, it doesn't happen often or last very long, but it does occur frequently enough to not be an anomaly.
I like some of your proposals and think they would be interesting (fun) additions to the game. However, they would not bring about the behavior change you claim. A simple example of this is to watch what happens when a side looses it radar. I've seen on several occasions that the side that looses radar, will then have a corresponding drop in players. And I've always heard/read complaints on country or range about loosing radar and players leaving because of it. Using strategic targets to hinder a side (if it was destroyed) would only exacerbate this issue.
The only remotely plausible solution I've been able to think of would be a base specific, dynamic ENY system. It would have to look at the player density within a given range of the field as well as look at the other adjacent fields. It would then adjust the ENY values accordingly to limit density within that range. But there are still many issues that would have to be worked out, and it may not be practical.
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A simple example of this is to watch what happens when a side looses it radar. I've seen on several occasions that the side that looses radar, will then have a corresponding drop in players. And I've always heard/read complaints on country or range about loosing radar and players leaving because of it.
The dar is out?!!! So, I'm logging! :rofl
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Zazen,
I like some of your proposals and think they would be interesting (fun) additions to the game. However, they would not bring about the behavior change you claim. A simple example of this is to watch what happens when a side looses it radar.
Being able to disable countrywide radar is a terrible implimentation imho. The last thing you want to do is make it more difficult for your players to interact, thankfully HT realized this at some point and gimped radar disabling to virtual non-existence. I am against night/dusk/dawn, poor lighting conditions for this very same reason. All of my changes' central premise are to increase reasons for and focal point locations of potential player interactions in interesting and fun ways.
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Re 18 oct
Well this was a joke tonight gmt time.It took me over 30 minutes to get in the arena i wanted to be in
I wanted to join my squad mates in orange late war map but it was caped at 100 with early and mid caped at
350 with 20 people in them between them.
Before you say go in blue blue was in IMO a crap small map which no one wanted to go ion because they were all waiting for orange to open more spaces.
In the day time you see caps of 350 when there barely 100 on in both late arenas but when it gets busy,we get screwed with caps of 100.
Its got to the point now i am seriously thinking of deleting my account,after over 5 years of fun the arena caps are just taking the fun away for me.
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Funny I've seriously never thought of logging because we lost radar.OMG I'm stupid!
999000 <S>
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Re 18 oct
Well this was a joke tonight gmt time.It took me over 30 minutes to get in the arena i wanted to be in
I wanted to join my squad mates in orange late war map but it was caped at 100 with early and mid caped at
350 with 20 people in them between them.
Before you say go in blue blue was in IMO a crap small map which no one wanted to go ion because they were all waiting for orange to open more spaces.
In the day time you see caps of 350 when there barely 100 on in both late arenas but when it gets busy,we get screwed with caps of 100.
Its got to the point now i am seriously thinking of deleting my account,after over 5 years of fun the arena caps are just taking the fun away for me.
You are a :devil bad sheep :devil for even questioning HTC's reasoning. As they have stated, they have a knack for knowing what you really want even though you say you want something else. This must stem from previous IT interaction that for good reason makes IT people think that the customers never know what they really want.
Also, Fugitive will tell you, " if your this miserable and bitter why are you playing the game? " At least thats what he hunted me down on another post and said after i made this same argument in this forum.
There are many on both sides of the argument. Seems to me many both have good reasoning for thier opinions. I've appreciated Hitechs input on this topic. However, the brown nosers that will chase you around the forum for the stance you have taken is well, lame. Keep posting. :aok
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I LUV CAPS!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! CAPS LUV ME!!!!!!! :devil
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You are a :devil bad sheep :devil for even questioning HTC's reasoning. As they have stated, they have a knack for knowing what you really want even though you say you want something else. This must stem from previous IT interaction that for good reason makes IT people think that the customers never know what they really want.
Also, Fugitive will tell you, " if your this miserable and bitter why are you playing the game? " At least thats what he hunted me down on another post and said after i made this same argument in this forum.
There are many on both sides of the argument. Seems to me many both have good reasoning for thier opinions. I've appreciated Hitechs input on this topic. However, the brown nosers that will chase you around the forum for the stance you have taken is well, lame. Keep posting. :aok
LOL!!! you think pretty highly of yourself to think anyone would bother to take the time to "hunt you down". Your comments in that other thread were bitter and I just said so. Having seen nothing but complaints posted by you I just suggested that you may be better served by moving on to something else that doesn't aggravate you so much. Just trying to help.
as the "knowing what the population really wants", I would think HTC, by watching his subscription rates go up instead of down "knows" that he's doing ok. The mode he uses to balance the population in the 2 LW arenas may not be the best, but it is the "fairest" to the majority of people playing. HTC has also posted that they are willing to listen to ideas to help.
A brownnose is
1. to curry favor; behave obsequiously.
2. to seek favors from (a person) in an obsequious manner; fawn over.
3. Also, brown-noser. a toady; sycophant.
4. @ZZ-kisser
Hitech doesn't know me from a hole in the wall, so the above would be a waste of time. On the other hand, while I'm not a fan of the "dynamic cap system" I'm smart enough to understand it, and the need for it. You, I guess are falling very short in that category