Aces High Bulletin Board
General Forums => The O' Club => Topic started by: Oogly50 on June 29, 2008, 10:14:34 PM
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I've been questioning death lately, and quite frankly, it scares me.
I can't believe in heaven, no matter how hard I try... I find it impossible, that when we die, we go to a place where we're constantly happy... forever, and ever, and ever.
God is the same way for me. There is NO way that some being, figure, or whatever you want to call him, could have created everything we see today.
Plus, there are many different faiths and religious beliefs all over the place. The Indians, for example, believe in many gods, along with reincarnation. The Christians believe in only one god, and when we die, we go to Heaven with a fresh body.
But, if all religions believe they are right, then all but one of them are wrong, if not all of them. Because they can't all exist.
In my opinion, God, Heaven, and every other religion to date, was made up so that life would have meaning. The Greeks had a god for allot of things. A goddess of love and beauty. A god of the sky, and a god of the sea. But today, we somehow have discarded all that information, and we all somehow "know" that it doesn't exist.
If you ask multiple people what heaven is like, they will always have a different oppinion, and it's always some ridiculous story of how we "dematerialize" and end up naked in heaven... :huh
If you ask a christian if god exists, they will say "yes". But ask them what proof of his existence is there, they will probably say "because he is in our souls." or something like that.
So, in summary, as much as it pains me to say it, I don't believe in heaven or god.
So, when we die... we die, forever, and when our loved ones die, we will never see them again.
Please, someone, help me change my mind. I want to believe, but I just can't.
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Why do you want some one to change your mind? Accept the truth and get on with life.
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I've been questioning death lately, and quite frankly, it scares me.
I can't believe in heaven, no matter how hard I try... I find it impossible, that when we die, we go to a place where we're constantly happy... forever, and ever, and ever.
God is the same way for me. There is NO way that some being, figure, or whatever you want to call him, could have created everything we see today.
Plus, there are many different faiths and religious beliefs all over the place. The Indians, for example, believe in many gods, along with reincarnation. The Christians believe in only one god, and when we die, we go to Heaven with a fresh body.
But, if all religions believe they are right, then all but one of them are wrong, if not all of them. Because they can't all exist.
In my opinion, God, Heaven, and every other religion to date, was made up so that life would have meaning. The Greeks had a god for allot of things. A goddess of love and beauty. A god of the sky, and a god of the sea. But today, we somehow have discarded all that information, and we all somehow "know" that it doesn't exist.
If you ask multiple people what heaven is like, they will always have a different oppinion, and it's always some ridiculous story of how we "dematerialize" and end up naked in heaven... :huh
If you ask a christian if god exists, they will say "yes". But ask them what proof of his existence is there, they will probably say "because he is in our souls." or something like that.
So, in summary, as much as it pains me to say it, I don't believe in heaven or god.
So, when we die... we die, forever, and when our loved ones die, we will never see them again.
Please, someone, help me change my mind. I want to believe, but I just can't.
go to an open field. look at all the life there. the plants, trees, flowers, birds, maybe a hawk flying overhead. heck..even look at the weeds. all of the colors. all of the amazing life in that one spot.
now explain it all. where did it all come from?
that should help ya believe a bit i think.
<<S>>
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I've been questioning death lately, and quite frankly, it scares me.
What's to be afraid of? Everything dies.
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Dont fear the reaper. The thing you should concentrate on, in those moments of deep reflection, is on dying well. Dying like a man. With your head up high and your chest puffed out
like a banty rooster. What the hell have you got to lose anyway.
Once my dad died I was good with death. I figured that if he could do it, so could I.
Love you Dad.
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Oogly you've got some misconceptions on faith. It isn't sanctioned by reason. You can't "prove" heaven or hell or anything supernatural.
As far as anything you might fear, you should take a look at the beliefs behind those fears.
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Heaven is different to every person because it is different for every person. One person's idea of hell might be another's idea of heaven. That's how I look at it anyway. Honestly the way I see it is that so long as I die knowing that I changed someone's life for the better than throw me in a volcano for all I care. Death is death, it happens to everyone and everything. Why think about it if you don't have to?
When it comes time to write a will set up your beneficiaries then you can but until then just live life. The only time I truly thought about death was setting a life insurance policy and having to write my parents as beneficiaries on it at 18 years old. I rest peacefully knowing they'll have material things to replace me if I die.
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You're gonna die, that's just the way it is. No reason to be afraid of it. If something more happens after you die, then great. If not, then you'll be blinked out of existence and you won't have the opportunity to care or feel regret.
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Oogly50,
I have only one thing for you:
John 3:16
"For God so loved the world that he gave his one and only Son, that whoever believes in him shall not perish but have eternal life."
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Perhaps you will find your best answer in how to live your life.
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It's great to see so many different replies to this post! That is what makes us human, and so special, be thankful you are one. Be thankful for everyday you are here... If your time comes, it comes. Not much you can do to prevent it.
We are here now, make the best of everyday.
I'm not one to get into religion, but it has its purpose for some.
"If it is to be, it is up to me"
:salute
Mathis
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The best is to hope you die peacefully and comfortable in your sleep.
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Oogly, think of it this way..death is the next great adventure, none of us are
really sure what comes next.
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I liked the book and movie 'The Five People You Meet In Heaven', it is exactly how I pictured it to be; questions answered, loved ones reunited, and completely in your own perspective.
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The best is to hope you die peacefully and comfortable in your sleep.
Not screaming like the passengers in your car.
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Are you saying that Mac drives like my sister? If so... that's just mean.
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I am glad you bring this post about, because now i have more opportunity to do my job,
first let me tell you a little of my back ground, so you can see through my eyes. im sorry if this is long but bear with me.
i was born 38 years ago, when i was around 4 months old my "mom" took me to her friends house, to have her watch me, well she never came back, at the time my dad was in Vietnam,
any ways, i was about 4 years old when my dad meets a new girl, (she herself was just a kid), but she was not very nice to me she would call me " a piece of sh*t " "f@$king loser " "a nobody " all kinds of crap every day, so i started to stay out late, once i hit 7 years old my "dad" would flip out on me, he started by punishing me by having me kneel on rice or corn and hold out books in my out stretched arms, needless to say that i wasn't happy so i would just not come home, especially once he started punching me, near were i lived was a parking garage, at 7/8 years old i would sleep in there with the bums, i slept all over first it was cars but i always would get caught, in 1979, just 10 years after i was born i was arrested for the first time, for runaway, they just brought me back home. i would take the beating, and run away again.(one of these times i ran i had a man pick me up and bring me to his house tried to rape me had my pants down but this time i ran away from him)in 1980 my only older brother died, he fell of a bridge, he was truly the only one that loved me and treated me good. so in 1981 they sent me to a place called YDC ( youth development center) i was the youngest kid there, they would try to send me back home but dad never changed, in 1983 i was committed there till i was 18, i am not going to get into what happened to me while i was young there, but if you use your mind im sure you can figure out what a bunch of 15 to 17 year old kids did to an 11 to 13 year old, no where to run when your locked up!
well if you can imagine what my mind was like i hated, i do mean i HATED. so i started to work out, use my feet, by the time i was 15, i could curl 120 pounds, bench press 225, and do a perfect split,actually with my back against the wall i could lift my foot and touch the wall behind me. so hear i am 15, 16, still locked up with an immeasurable amount of hate inside me. i fought every day, any body who tried to mess with me i put them down, hard and fast, and vicious.i couldn't be hurt any more , my dad punching me in the face made it imposable to hurt me by punching me. to say i hated God is an understatement.
so at 17 i robbed a homosexual and of course because of my extensive time in YDC they said i was a career criminal and sent me to prison, well i will admit i was a little scared, but i just let go of my hatred and became what this world and GOD wanted me to be, i was not a nice person, within my first week i was earning money by knocking people out, i was a crazy out of control convict, i maxed my bid out, i did over a hundred days in the hole and over a year in maximum security
so four days before my 22 birthday i was released, into this world, LOL not a good thing, i hated GOD, i hated people, i hated every thing, but i did love to draw, and became quit good at it, i also picked up tattooing in prison, i went in with none i came out with almost two full sleeves, plus a bunch all over my body.
i started to collect money for a drug dealer, trust me when i say they all paid.
i never got into drugs and only drank for a short time, i became way to violent.
well in 1993 i met this woman named Stacey, we started to date, but i was not very nice, i slept with as many woman as i wanted, doing tattoos i had all kinds of woman who wanted me, plus my personality, my confidence, i was untouchable. Stacey fell in love with me, but i had no idea what love was, so when we fought i would throw her around, hold her down, i never punched her but slap her i did, she would scream at me but that set me off, (all i thought of was my stepmother)
but no matter what i did she stayed with me, so in 1994 our first (of many) child was born, when she came out i cut her umbilical cord, it was at that precise moment i knew i was not a nice person and for the first time i wanted to change. but that was not an easy thing, we still fought constantly, i still cheated on her, i could not change, we had another girl, then another girl, but yet i could not change, i was still fighting all the time, at least trying to, but most people were very afraid of me i was in the city i grew up in so everyone knew who i was, i was, to put it bluntly an prettythanghole, to who ever got in my way. the difference was i did not want to be this way.
well this guy i was tattooing started to talk about God, and his son, i broke down and balled, i cried for the first time since i was 10, i asked his son to become my savior, he gave me a bible and i started to read it as much as i could, i read it every day. you know whats messed up i still couldn't change, i still cheated i still fought with my girlfriend. but i did not stop reading and asking God to help me change, in 1998 Stacey and i got married, soon after my life went down hill we became homeless with our three girls, we lived with out electricity, we fed our girls peanut butter and bread for almost a week, my internal fight was massive,
so one day Stacey and i get into a real bad fight, i almost smash her face against a wall i went into a rage, and once again i was my old self. but this time i thought about God and instead of losing it i picked up the bible i prayed to God i asked him what he felt about my anger, i prayed from deep within my heart, i just opened the bible and started to read, the first line on the left page, said this " these are the things The LORD despises, OUTBURST of anger..." i almost dropped the bible, i felt an overwhelming sensation inside my heart, i couldn't believe it GOD was real and he was telling me he Does NOT like outburst of anger, he showed me the truth. i was overwhelmed.
so i truly gave my self to him, i studied every bible from all different religions, i could not believe what i was discovering, they are all the same, but here and there was some differences, but essentially they are all the same, one thing that kept bothering me was the word LORD, it says that is gods name, but that is not correct, i found out that the scribes at some point took out Gods name and replaced it with Adonai meaning "The Lord", i have found a verse in the old testament that says " you will make people forget my name..."
so i Tattooed on my right hand Gods name in Hebrew, with a human heart behind it with an eye in the heart meaning God is the searcher of hearts.
well about 3 years ago i was working in a Tattoo shop, and in walks three people they are talking in a different language, i knew right away it was Hebrew, i tried to teach my self Hebrew, so i could read the old testament to truly grasp what the words say, so i ask where they were from? they say "we were born and raised in Jerusalem, i instantly show them my right hand and ask them what it was, they say "God", i reply " I know its God but how do you say it?" well they say " we are not supposed to say it," i ask "please tell me " two of them at the same time say Yahaveh, so then i ask them what kind of tattoo are they looking for? they say that they are not looking for a tattoo we just had a feeling that we had to stop.
i also found out that Jesus is not gods sons name, Yeshua, is his given name, it means "Yahavehs Savior"
people blame God for the things they do, God has given us freewill. Yahaveh is there for those that want him.
Yeshua and his father say that if you believe on the son, the light to all men, if you have faith that Yahaveh raised his first begotten son from death, you will have ever lasting life. well i know Yahaveh and Yeshua and i am confident in there ability to forgive my sins.
oh ya Stacey and i are still together we have 6 amazing, smart, beautiful, healthy, children, we have not fought in many years.
yes i still struggle with my past, but i truly know love.
i wish you the best, ask for understanding, read Gods word,talk to your father and his savior because you cant get to the father except through the son, it wont be easy, eternal life is the ultimate goal, but think of that old saying " if it ain't easy, it ain't worth it "
you will lose friends, family,be mocked at, laughed at,cursed at, satan will put you through the ringer, but its all good. and well worth it.
i left many things out of this, certain details that just don't need to be mentioned here, and not one word of this is untrue.
Paul
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:salute
I don't honestly know what to make of that except i'm happy that you found what you were looking for ink.
I hope the poster finds what he's looking for too.
Regard FBClaw
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look up at the stars. Life just didn't materialize here on Earth. No matter what anybody says.
Earth may have gotten compatible for earth, but life didn't just happen. :)
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I've been questioning death lately, and quite frankly, it scares me.
The universe is what, like 15 billion years old and here I sit in my mid 50's. The way I see it the first 14,999,999,943 years were a piece of cake. It's only been the last 57 years that's been a *itch. If you worry to much about dieing you'll forget how to live and that would be a waste. Party on. (http://smileydatabase.com/s/805.png)
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I think Iris Dement can answer you question the best. She's pretty country so hold on tight,http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6Du5FguDSzE (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6Du5FguDSzE).
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Dont fear the reaper. The thing you should concentrate on, in those moments of deep reflection, is on dying well. Dying like a man. With your head up high and your chest puffed out
like a banty rooster. What the hell have you got to lose anyway.
Once my dad died I was good with death. I figured that if he could do it, so could I.
Love you Dad.
I liked that Yeager.
Me, I ain't afraid of death, only the pain that accompanies it.
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I think that the proof that there is a god is in the fact that we can get the strength we need from him.. strength that we could not come up with on our own.
What his plans are for us or what happens to us when we die is.. well.. as mojavas miss dement says... "think I'll let the mystery be" on that one. I do believe that we live on in some form.
lazs
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Or you can go with Julie Miller's "All My Tears", also pretty country.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZU1GrR5ET5k
:D
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The universe is what, like 15 billion years old
Actually, what Ive been taught is that time is relative to your altitude and speed, and therefore for all we know the universe is only about 30 seconds old, and we're the ones who have been here forever... :eek: :rolleyes:
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see if www.youtube.com/watch?v=f60UEe2LuLw (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=f60UEe2LuLw) this helps
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Or you can go with Julie Miller's "All My Tears", also pretty country.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZU1GrR5ET5k
:D
that would have been my other choice :D good pick toady
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Let me summarize:
I want to believe, but I just can't.
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First off, you're coming at this from the wrong angle.
It is foolish to demand proof of existance from God. It is JUST as foolish that after making that demand and receiving no proof, jumping to the conclusion that God does not exist, and thus becoming an atheist.
Second is assuming that God is an all encompassing, capable of everything entity. I think that the world itself either proves he is not, or chooses not to be (the latter which I believe). And a lot of people lose faith over this as well. The simple fact that bad things happen to good people drives a lot of people to question whether or not he exists.
Now here's where I'm going to lose people. I personally think that Good and Evil being attached to God and the Devil respectively are backwards as it currently stands. I haven't studied much of the bible, but according to everything I have personally come to believe in, all the biblical stories where evil exists actually shows evil punishing the good.
Take, for example, some of the first mentions of man. Cain and Abel. Cain learns how to cultivate the land. He uses intelligence, ingenuity and strength to create vast quanitities of food. Abel merely herds some animals. When it comes time to honor god with what was created, Cain was ignored, and Abel was not. This is one of the first (of many) stories about how someone WILL be punished for being capable and intelligent. Another example is the Tower of Babel
This has led me to believe that religion is a manifestation of the Devil. What was that quote? Something like "the devil will show himself as the hypocrites of the world?" In every religion all across the world they demand obediance in God's name to scare up worship. However these people that do this also gain power and money for themselves. Which shows that Religion is another form of Government. And just as every other government, "Man cannot be governed, and free." And given that we ARE free, and that we have free will (and that very few other animals do as well), God has given us this free will. It's silly to think that we're given free will, but punished if we use it.
I also forgot to mention, I think God has a great sense of humor, and his favorite gag is Irony.
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ink thank you for sharing that :aok Congratulations on getting your life on track <S>
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<S> Ink! Keep the faith and move on.
As for you Oogly50 you are missing the biggest part in this. I am a Christian because I believe there is something/someone much bigger than me. We have freedom and freewill to do things, think things and act on those thoughts and feelings but I don't. I have not been the most pious or righteous individual and don't think I ever will be; but I know that I am forgiven. I don't believe in a heaven like you or the vast majority of Christians describe...in fact I don't know what to think. I just know that I have faith in the Grace of God and everything will be fine in the end. I will die when I die and I am not worried. A great book to read is one called "The Christian Agnostic" by Leslie Weatherhead.
http://www.amazon.com/Christian-Agnostic-Abingdon-Classics/dp/0687069807 (http://www.amazon.com/Christian-Agnostic-Abingdon-Classics/dp/0687069807)
Don't just rely on posters here on this board or any other. Experience things and ask people of faith in your community about their personal experience. You just might be surprised to find that some of the ministers weren't always altar boys no matter what the faith or denomination.
Best of luck to you.
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ink thank you for sharing that :aok Congratulations on getting your life on track <S>
I second that :aok
:salute
Mathis
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I have to admit, I struggle with religion and the nagging doubt that its all just a bunch of superstition gotten out of control or being used for political ends. What is it about the currently popular religions that make them any more valid than each other or the many hundreds that went before them?
Here's the rub - I personally have a lot less problem believing life on Earth is just a cosmic coincidence than the design of some supreme being.
When it comes down to it, I try not to worry too much about the things I can't change. I can't change the fact I'm going to die, so why worry about it.
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thank you guys,
i would like to touch base on "Heaven" from reading the bible i have come to understanding that heaven will be here on earth, i wont go into all the quotes. but in many places it refers to "Heaven on earth"
now i want to say that the King James Bible, which is one of the best is also sometimes wrongly translated, the KJV, was written in 1611, and there are so many spots that the words are not translated properly, if you really want to know what it says, go and get a Strong's concordance, it brings every word back to the origanal meaning, and it also has a Hebrew and Greek dictionary, so you can truly see what the origanal writer Yahaveh wanted to convey to his children.
i do not read ANY other book about the bible, (except the Strong's) but that is to bring the words to there true meaning.
for example when Satan is in the garden he deceives eve, but the word deceive is wrong, it should be "wholly seduced" to put it bluntly he they,( and yes Adam also,) sex, and you can find other places in the word that confirms this.
religion is not from Yahaveh, religion is from people, again those of you who think that by people actions they can understand Yahaveh, or by listening to people especially people in religion, will never begin to see the truth. there are so many of mans tradition embedded into religion nowadays its unbelievable, most religions try to tell us that Yahaveh and his son are the same entity, but that is so wrong, when Yahaveh created light in the very beginning, he created his first begotten son Yeshua, who is the light to the world,he is not the creator he is a creation like us except he is the first creation.
i guess i will stop because i could go on a loooooooooooong time.
read the word of Yahaveh, seek the truth, keep knocking he will answer.
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You're gonna die, that's just the way it is. No reason to be afraid of it. If something more happens after you die, then great. If not, then you'll be blinked out of existence and you won't have the opportunity to care or feel regret.
That's really how I look at it as well.. I think all in all, it really comes down to what "You Want" to believe. Nobody can tell you what to think, believe, feel, or understand about religion since nobody can prove anything more than the next. Your religion is a personal choice, anyone who tells you otherwise is ignorant. I personally find my 'religion' (if you can even call it that) through science and philosophy. In my studies of the topics, I find myself boxed into a corner. Once everything is broken down to its most basic form, I find that the very existence of the universe is proof enough for me for a higher power of some form or another. What that means I have NO CLUE, but I 'choose' to embrace that uncertainty with excitement.. The possibilities are truly endless and to me, that's exciting.. If there's really nothing after you die, you wont know the difference since your consciousness will cease to exist.
I always at least try to remember that there's no reason to fear the unknown. For all you know, the unknown could be better than you could have ever imagined.
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Oogly, I understand your fear. I see no beaty in death, and I am unsure what happens thereafter.
It will be painless at best, and cut you away from your loved ones.
What I am sure of though, is that something happens thereafter. And I think mankind is not supposed to know what exactly, since that if we all knew, we'd go ape.
I won't try to drag you into any particular religion, since I am hardly religious.
From life though, I went through events that convinced me of that there is "more".
Just what? That is the question...
Don't sweat....Think about life and your loved ones instead of death. When you fly over to the long flying grounds, you will find out, - or not....- like the rest of us inevitably will.
Untill then....have a good time.
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Ink,you make many very valid points,and I also thank you for you sharing your testimony here..God is awesome,that is why he sent his son Jesus to die for us sinners..Funny thing about some people is they say the jews killed Jesus..In all honesty,we ALL put him on the cross with our sins..
I know their is a ONE GOD.."I AM" he called himself in the OT when speaking to moses..
Jesus is also God incarnated in the flesh and he dwelt among us...
Ink,of course you are also correct in that it is not religion that saves us,but RELATIONSHIP with Jesus Christ..As inks life brought him finally to Jesus,so has my meanderings brought me also to Jesus,and many of the other christians in this world.God makes straight that which is crooked..
Oogly,if I could just try and hit you with something that maybe you will understand as well as others..and that is..It takes an intelligence to MAKE an intelligence..
All I can say is whatothers have.Pray and ask God to show you what he wants for your life,ask him to show you the truth of himself.You dont have to be kneeling in a pew at a church to pray.I have had some great convos in the car.. :)
And also get into the bible,this is where he speaks to us,that is where our spirit gets fed..
The biggest lie the devil has going ,well one of a few ,is that he/the devil,does not exist,and #2 is that God does not care for us..
Falcon23
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Now that is one of the most evil things that could ever be said. That everyone, regardless of who they are, are damned just for being human. It doesn't matter who they are, they are damned unless they beg for salvation.
Screw genocide, rape, murder, people talking in theaters, and pillage.
THAT IS EVIL INCARNATE.
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Eduard Delacroix: [in the electric chair, about to be executed] Don't forgot about Mouseville.
[Paul and Brutal nod]
Percy Wetmore: Hey. There's no such place. It's just a fairytale these guys told you to keep you quiet. Just thought you should know, studmuffingot.
-The Green Mile
There ain't no Mouseville and there ain't no Heaven- once you're gone you'll never again feel the shock of jumping into a cold pool of water, the warm sun on your shoulders, the smell of a fresh cut lawn- You're just gone, and those left behind will miss you terribly forever.
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Eduard Delacroix: [in the electric chair, about to be executed] Don't forgot about Mouseville.
[Paul and Brutal nod]
Percy Wetmore: Hey. There's no such place. It's just a fairytale these guys told you to keep you quiet. Just thought you should know, studgot.
-The Green Mile
There ain't no Mouseville and there ain't no Heaven- once you're gone you'll never again feel the shock of jumping into a cold pool of water, the warm sun on your shoulders, the smell of a fresh cut lawn- You're just gone, and those left behind will miss you terribly forever.
Explain the intrinsic need for meaning that almost everyone shares. A need so strong that religions are created by even those who eschew traditonal religions focused on the supernatural. Explain the creation of the universe. Unless you can how can you be so certain you are only what you see?
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First off, you're coming at this from the wrong angle.
It is foolish to demand proof of existance from God. It is JUST as foolish that after making that demand and receiving no proof, jumping to the conclusion that God does not exist, and thus becoming an atheist.
Second is assuming that God is an all encompassing, capable of everything entity. I think that the world itself either proves he is not, or chooses not to be (the latter which I believe). And a lot of people lose faith over this as well. The simple fact that bad things happen to good people drives a lot of people to question whether or not he exists.
Now here's where I'm going to lose people. I personally think that Good and Evil being attached to God and the Devil respectively are backwards as it currently stands. I haven't studied much of the bible, but according to everything I have personally come to believe in, all the biblical stories where evil exists actually shows evil punishing the good.
Take, for example, some of the first mentions of man. Cain and Abel. Cain learns how to cultivate the land. He uses intelligence, ingenuity and strength to create vast quanitities of food. Abel merely herds some animals. When it comes time to honor god with what was created, Cain was ignored, and Abel was not. This is one of the first (of many) stories about how someone WILL be punished for being capable and intelligent. Another example is the Tower of Babel
This has led me to believe that religion is a manifestation of the Devil. What was that quote? Something like "the devil will show himself as the hypocrites of the world?" In every religion all across the world they demand obediance in God's name to scare up worship. However these people that do this also gain power and money for themselves. Which shows that Religion is another form of Government. And just as every other government, "Man cannot be governed, and free." And given that we ARE free, and that we have free will (and that very few other animals do as well), God has given us this free will. It's silly to think that we're given free will, but punished if we use it.
I also forgot to mention, I think God has a great sense of humor, and his favorite gag is Irony.
HMMMMMM>>>>>>>>>
IIRC Cain was NOT Adam's son............
Ink wrote...
" for example when Satan is in the garden he deceives eve, but the word deceive is wrong, it should be "wholly seduced" to put it bluntly he they,( and yes Adam also,) sex, and you can find other places in the word that confirms this."
I think the word is BEGUILED which is rooted in Greek..... "wholly seduced"
Cain was the son of.............
Do a lookup of Kinites? (spelling?)
The tower of Babel was constructed as a direct measure intending to bypass God.
The ORIGINAL KJV had a message printed in the front telling all that read it that the translators had done their best BUT they KNEW they had made mistakes! And anyone reading it should double check things! (words then had different meanings then they do now.)
English is a odd language.
Example: When I was young the word BAD meant several different things INCLUDING the opposite of the dictionary meaning......... USED in certain ways it actually meant GOOD?!?!?!?
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Ink,you make many very valid points,and I also thank you for you sharing your testimony here..God is awesome,that is why he sent his son Jesus to die for us sinners..Funny thing about some people is they say the jews killed Jesus..In all honesty,we ALL put him on the cross with our sins..
I know their is a ONE GOD.."I AM" he called himself in the OT when speaking to moses..
Jesus is also God incarnated in the flesh and he dwelt among us...
Ink,of course you are also correct in that it is not religion that saves us,but RELATIONSHIP with Jesus Christ..As inks life brought him finally to Jesus,so has my meanderings brought me also to Jesus,and many of the other christians in this world.God makes straight that which is crooked..
Oogly,if I could just try and hit you with something that maybe you will understand as well as others..and that is..It takes an intelligence to MAKE and intelligence..
All I can say is whatothers have.Pray and ask God to show you what he wants for your life,ask him to show you the truth of himself.You dont have to be kneeling in a pew at a church to pray.I have had some great convos in the car.. :)
And also get into the bible,this is where he speaks to us,that is where our spirit gets fed..
The biggest lie the devil has going ,well one of a few ,is that he/the devil,does not exist,and #2 is that God does not care for us..
Falcon23
falcon thax,
if I may: christen religion has distorted what the words say, you say that Yeshua (jesus) is Yahaveh incarnate, this is one of those distorted truths, you Falcon seem very much a lover of God, so i will look in the bible to show you why i say this.
Gen:1-3
than God said " let there be light"
1 Corinthians's 15:27-28
* 27.
* For he hath put all things under his feet. But when he saith all things are put under him, it is manifest that he is excepted, which did put all things under him.
* 28.
* And when all things shall be subdued unto him, then shall the Son also himself be subject unto him that put all things under him, that God may be all in all.
John 17: 11
* And now I am no more in the world, but these are in the world, and I come to thee. Holy Father, keep through thine own name those whom thou hast given me, that they may be one, as we are.
if what religion says is true that Yeshua is Yahaveh, meaning he is the creator,according to this passage we then all of us are just one person,
which is imposable.
okay now to the serious part
you quote "I AM"
that is in Exodus 3: 14
And God said unto Moses, I AM THAT I AM : and he said , Thus shalt thou say unto the children of Israel, I AM hath sent me unto you
but all we need to do is look to the next verse
Exodus 15.
# And God said moreover unto Moses, Thus shalt thou say unto the children of Israel, The LORD God of your fathers, the God of Abraham, the God of Isaac, and the God of Jacob, hath sent me unto you: this is my name for ever, and this is my memorial unto all generations.
here is where we see his true name, but due to mans tradition its hard to see, The LORD, in the manuscripts is YHVH, Yahveh,
in 14 he is describing himself what does the end of 15 say?
it was mans tradition to take out Gods name would you like to see more? watch this
Jeremiah :23-27
Which think to cause my people to forget my name by their dreams which they tell every man to his neighbor, as their fathers have forgotten my name for Baal.
i want to include a few verses just to make the point. every where you see LORD, or GOD that is where his name is.
* 23.
* Am I a God at hand, saith the LORD, and not a God afar off?
* 24.
* Can any hide himself in secret places that I shall not see him? saith the LORD. Do not I fill heaven and earth? saith the LORD.
* 25.
* I have heard what the prophets said , that prophesy lies in my name, saying , I have dreamed , I have dreamed .
* 26.
* How long shall this be in the heart of the prophets that prophesy lies? yea, they are prophets of the deceit of their own heart;
* 27.
* Which think to cause my people to forget my name by their dreams which they tell every man to his neighbour, as their fathers have forgotten my name for Baal.
* 28.
* The prophet that hath a dream, let him tell a dream; and he that hath my word, let him speak my word faithfully. What is the chaff to the wheat? saith the LORD.
* 29.
* Is not my word like as a fire? saith the LORD; and like a hammer that breaketh the rock in pieces ?
* 30.
* Therefore, behold, I am against the prophets, saith the LORD, that steal my words every one from his neighbour.
* 31.
* Behold, I am against the prophets, saith the LORD, that use their tongues, and say , He saith .
* 32.
* Behold, I am against them that prophesy false dreams, saith the LORD, and do tell them, and cause my people to err by their lies, and by their lightness; yet I sent them not, nor commanded them: therefore they shall not profit this people at all , saith the LORD.
* 33.
* And when this people, or the prophet, or a priest, shall ask thee, saying , What is the burden of the LORD? thou shalt then say unto them, What burden? I will even forsake you, saith the LORD.
* 34.
* And as for the prophet, and the priest, and the people, that shall say , The burden of the LORD, I will even punish that man and his house.
* 35.
* Thus shall ye say every one to his neighbour, and every one to his brother, What hath the LORD answered ? and, What hath the LORD spoken ?
* 36.
* And the burden of the LORD shall ye mention no more: for every man's word shall be his burden; for ye have perverted the words of the living God, of the LORD of hosts our God.
when i read the word i say Yahaveh where it should be and Yeshua also where it should, Christ actually means Messiah, so Yeshua the Messiah
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Explain the creation of the universe. Unless you can how can you be so certain you are only what you see?
Seriously? We can't explain everything around us so it must be the work of God? How about we can't explain something because we're just not clever enough - yet. Give us time and we'll figure it out.
If everyone had just accepted that everything around them was the work of God, we'd all still be living in caves and hoping not to become a mid-day snack for something higher up the food chain.
Good luck to those of you who get strength from your faith, but its just not for me.
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HMMMMMM>>>>>>>>>
IIRC Cain was NOT Adam's son............
Ink wrote...
" for example when Satan is in the garden he deceives eve, but the word deceive is wrong, it should be "wholly seduced" to put it bluntly he they,( and yes Adam also,) sex, and you can find other places in the word that confirms this."
I think the word is BEGUILED which is rooted in Greek..... "wholly seduced"
Cain was the son of.............
Do a lookup of Kinites? (spelling?)
The tower of Babel was constructed as a direct measure intending to bypass God.
The ORIGINAL KJV had a message printed in the front telling all that read it that the translators had done their best BUT they KNEW they had made mistakes! And anyone reading it should double check things! (words then had different meanings then they do now.)
English is a odd language.
Example: When I was young the word BAD meant several different things INCLUDING the opposite of the dictionary meaning......... USED in certain ways it actually meant GOOD?!?!?!?
thanx for the fix,
and i am not sure but i am beginning to believe that Cain was Satan's son and Able was Adams son, twin sons no less, but in all reality, the things i dont understand, i don't let it hang me up.
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thanx for the fix,
and i am not sure but i am beginning to believe that Cain was Satan's son and Able was Adams son, twin sons no less, but in all reality, the things i dont understand, i don't let it hang me up.
Lucifer got there first...........
beguiled "wholly seduced"
Look up beguiled and I think you will see that it has a SPECIFIC meaning....
(Anyone remember that Clint Eastwood movie "The Beguiled" ? and what he was doing?)
then Eve went immediately to Adam and .............
IIRC They were MATERNAL twins..............
The Bible is actually not too difficult to understand if you read it the way it was written...
does it not say BEWARE the traditions of men?
Traditions claims Adam and Eve were the 1st.............
Yes they were the 1st of the line of the Saviour (they were created with a specific purpose)...
BUT if you read 1st Genesis and then proceed to 2nd Genesis AND avoid the tradition of 2nd partially being a repeat of 1st............
God made MAN on the 6th day and rested...
THEN....
on the 8th day he created Adam and Eve...........
That would mean that Cain married someone OTHER then one of his own sisters!
May I make a suggestion?
Pick up a copy of the Companion Bible (large print version ISBN 0-8254-2099-7)
E. W. Bullinger put this copy together and it is said he was possibly the MOST knowledgeable Biblical scholar thus far........ the appendix's are well worth the price!
He was asked by the Rabi's to participate in their work on the MASSARA* (spelling)
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Cain was Adams son,as was Able...
Why was Cains sacrifice not honored???
Because he was full of pride..read it and you shall see,it was the SIN in his heart that God was not pleased with,and it was the sin of PRIDE and ENVY...This is one example of how God "sees" our hearts..Their was not ANY fornication of ANY kind between angels,either fallen or not,and any humans in the bible..I can prove this with words which Jesus spoke in the NT if you insist...
Why did Lucifer fall from heaven??? was it because he was "BAD"???..umm...no it was not..
It was because he was FULL OF PRIDE and thought he could be as good as God,and lets not forget the envy which caused the PRIDE..He was envious of Man because up until that point he was the most beautiful angel God had made,but then he became envious,and PRIDE crept in...
As far as if Jesus is God or not,I get it from COLOSSIANS 1:14-19
And John 1:1-14
Study John 1-14 and one cannot miss that in fact Jesus was God manifest on the earth..
There is quite a bit inbetween,but the first verse is:
1. In the beginning was the WORD,and the WORD was with God,and the WORD WAS God..
now we go to verse 14.. And the WORD was made FLESH,and dwelt among us,(and we beheld his Glory,the Glory AS OF the only begotten of the Father,) full of Grace and Truth..
Falcon23
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So Cain is punished for being proud of doing a good job, and envious that Able doesn't even really try and still skates by?
This is a sin? Are you people even diddlying paying attention?
Every single time in the bible the capable are torn down BECAUSE THEY ARE CAPABLE, while the pious make every single headway to being one of God's chosen ones. Given that the bible was written by man, don't you begin to wonder why this happens every single time?
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It's a built in safety feature so that people don't delve to deep into trying to explain the mysteries of the world instead of just saying, 'it was god!', which of course would lead to atheism.
IMO of course.
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Laser,no offense,but if you would spend as much time reading the bible and asking for God to help you understand HIS Ways,instead of trying to tear it down,you may get a better idea of God,and his ways...Did you not see the ENVY??? unless you think Envy is good for something..
Falcon23 :salute
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You realize what you just said is that, if you read the bible and blindly follow it instead of looking at it critically and trying to understand the underlying message, that you will have better faith?
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ML,I said no such thing..I understand the critical thinking that goes into it...But for people to come in and tear down something which they do not understand nor have a working knowledge of is putting the cart before the horse.
Falcon23
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Working knowledge of a fairy tale is only working knowledge of a fairly tale.. Doesnt really get anyone anywhere IMO..
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I view Christianity as a very old structure of values compiled by people who had lost all bearing on their existence. The manifestation of a set of guide lines and an external parent figure takes the responsibility off the hands of humans and places it on the head of an 'intrinsically good, all-knowing and omnipotent being'. My beliefs aside, let's look into this God business a little.
Existence is truly an overwhelming thing. If you take a moment to look deeper into any of the things around you one cannot help being utterly lost in the complexity of it all. God is an all too convenient simplification of it all. I do not think that the belief that existence was created by a deity is helpful to a successful existence.
Existence as we understand it is a finite occurrence, it will pass. Whether or not our existence as we understand it on Earth is a mere stage of something much larger we can do nothing other than execute this existence, or stage of existence, in the way we see most fit.
Christianity will have you believe that the way of God is the most fit way to exist.
However, I feel that one should take their own existence into their own hands. The only thing you can do in your 'life' is exist. No matter what you're doing or not doing, you're existing. Given the magnitude of this it makes sense to me to define how you exist by yourself. You're opening yourself to grave errors if you just accept the pre-packaged existence that Christianity and religion in general provides. Even if God exists the bible is nothing but a story book written by bored and lost humans.
In order to lead the best possible existence one must evaluate their actions through their own eyes, not through the words of a book.
Humans are fallible (a fundamental Christian belief) so why accept the work of many humans (many fallible humans involved creates the possibility of many mistakes) as fact!? It is a monumental error to accept the work of others before you without checking it yourself. You wouldn't do it at school (if you wanted the best grade), you wouldn't do it at work (if you wanted the best from your job) and you shouldn't do it if you want the best from your existence.
To each their own, of course, I am not trying to tell the Christians of Aces High that they're wrong. My suggestion is that you look into everything the bible tells you and critique it with your own sense of moral judgement because the bible does not contain the word of God, it contains man's interpretation of the word of God. Use the bible as a hand-drawn road map rather than a dictionary and you will be on the way to a fuller existence.
I've studied the philosophy of religion at university and through the many hours I spent looking through it all I learnt is that it's all hot air and words on a page. There is no way to say that there is some omnipresent being controlling or 'guiding' everything and there is also no way to say that their isn't, so I'm not trying to suggest that there is or is not a God. All we can do is use our our time to do our best.
Besides, assuming that God does exist for a moment, he gave you a brain and it would be an insult to him not to use it, right? :aok
:salute
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Been dead once already, it's not all it's cracked up to be.
Honestly, IMO it matters not what religious mythology you believe in, we will all end up going through the same experience.
Bottom line is, YOU are your own judge. YOU will decide where you go after here. The biggest truths untold by conventional religions, is "hell" is right here right now and we are all collectively in ourselves "God" and "Satan". Religions are merely the guides we use to conduct our daily lives.
The Buddhists almost have it right.
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Laser,no offense,but if you would spend as much time reading the bible and asking for God to help you understand HIS Ways,instead of trying to tear it down,you may get a better idea of God,and his ways...Did you not see the ENVY??? unless you think Envy is good for something..
Falcon23 :salute
First off, Envy IS good. If it weren't for envy, if it weren't for people wanting more, we would still be in the caves bashing our mates over the heads with clubs. Every single item you see around you, every medical, mechanical and motor advancement in the world is the result of envy and greed.
But you aren't asking me to understand GOD's way. You are asking me to understand the Christian Church's way. There's a difference.
Here's the thing. I understand God's way. I can see it in the world all around me. The catch is that I believe the christian way is the way of satan. Every single thing the Christian Church demands of the world is more evil than the largest mass murderer.
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sd.. I think that you are probly closer to correct than most but... I do believe that there is a creator who cares about us and will give us the strength we need if we ask. Needed and got strength I didn't have before.. that is "proof" enough.
I think that the reason that so few people are athiests is because it makes no sense for one thing and because gods presence can be felt all around us.. to be an athiest is a sickness of the soul in my opinion.. it is anger and denial.
I think most outgrow athiesm because they lose the bitterness or.. as we age we simply see that science not only will not let us live forever or that.. it is not that desirable in any case.
lazs
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First off, Envy IS good. If it weren't for envy, if it weren't for people wanting more, we would still be in the caves bashing our mates over the heads with clubs. Every single item you see around you, every medical, mechanical and motor advancement in the world is the result of envy and greed.
But you aren't asking me to understand GOD's way. You are asking me to understand the Christian Church's way. There's a difference.
Here's the thing. I understand God's way. I can see it in the world all around me. The catch is that I believe the christian way is the way of satan. Every single thing the Christian Church demands of the world is more evil than the largest mass murderer.
IMHO you haven't made an effort to understand some things..........
It SEEMS to show in your statement.
How did you get the Cain and Abel thing? Where did the idea that one was working hard and the other wasn't come from?
This reference to hard work being rewarded with evil? Where did that come from?
Have you actually read the stuff your talking about? If so where did you read the stuff your saying, cause I can't find it! Not in the Bible.................
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What's to be afraid of? Everything dies.
(http://i239.photobucket.com/albums/ff107/tymekeepyr/EveryonePoopsBook.jpg)
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sd.. I think that you are probly closer to correct than most but... I do believe that there is a creator who cares about us and will give us the strength we need if we ask. Needed and got strength I didn't have before.. that is "proof" enough.
I think that the reason that so few people are athiests is because it makes no sense for one thing and because gods presence can be felt all around us.. to be an athiest is a sickness of the soul in my opinion.. it is anger and denial.
I think most outgrow athiesm because they lose the bitterness or.. as we age we simply see that science not only will not let us live forever or that.. it is not that desirable in any case.
lazs
A sickness of the soul? Really? Why must one be angry to find no reason to believe in a higher power?
Denial of a belief based in the inability to comprehend that which is around us? Seems very reasonable to me.
How does one's soul suffer from the lack of belief in an omnipotent being?
Finding strength within yourself and not searching for it externally is not the mark of a 'sick' soul. It is the mark of one who does not accept the 'truths' held by those before them blindly. If a concept is not one that you would have otherwise thought of and said concept has no proof, just a lack of a better explanation, why should one be considered lacking or defective for not adopting it?
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faith Pronunciation[feyth]
–noun
1. confidence or trust in a person or thing: faith in another's ability.
2. belief that is not based on proof: He had faith that the hypothesis would be substantiated by fact.
3. belief in God or in the doctrines or teachings of religion: the firm faith of the Pilgrims.
4. belief in anything, as a code of ethics, standards of merit, etc.: to be of the same faith with someone concerning honesty.
5. a system of religious belief: the Christian faith; the Jewish faith.
6. the obligation of loyalty or fidelity to a person, promise, engagement, etc.: Failure to appear would be breaking faith.
7. the observance of this obligation; fidelity to one's promise, oath, allegiance, etc.: He was the only one who proved his faith during our recent troubles.
8. Christian Theology. the trust in God and in His promises as made through Christ and the Scriptures by which humans are justified or saved.
—Idiom
9. in faith, in truth; indeed: In faith, he is a fine lad.
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Either you have it or you don't. Science cannot quantify it. Trying to do so goes against the whole concept of the word, itself.
Claiming that folks are silly because they believe in something that they cannot explain is utter nonsense.
There are plenty of people that have faith in something. It doesn't necessarily have to be some form of Judeo-Christian Godlike being.
For instance, I have faith that CT will be out in two weeks.
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Oh about 13 Billion years ago there was this big explosion and a huge amount of carbon elements spewed out
Eventually the matter cooled, stars formed, and then erupted in nuclear fusion. Matter around the starts cooled and gravity eventually formed them into planets. The whole thing became an on-going process.
And the whole shebang kept expanding outward, gravity forcing the stars into galaxies, and galaxies dancing around each other also controlled by gravity.
Meanwhile some snotty little star on the near edge of the Milky way had two rocky planets close enough to it to have formed Liquid water. One of them, "Earth", was placed perfectly in an orbit for life to begin. And it did. Either thru seeding by meteors or a home grown synthesis of molecules, simple one cell life began and eventually evolved into complex animals.
Then a big rock hit the earth and all hell broke loose. And it just so happened that the little, helpless, furry mammals were best positioned to live thru the holocaust. These mammals evolved into lots of different complex mammals. One of which eventually became a hairy apelike species on the plains of east central Africa.
Then one fine day a female of this species decided she would be better off leaving the trees and walking on the Savannah. She taught these skills to her young, who taught them to theirs. For all intensive purposes she was Eve.
This new type animal found a taste for meat in their diet. The high protein of which helped develop their already impressive brains. No animal has even come close to their ability to both adopt to new environments and to change the environment to suit them. They went on to control the world called earth.
I am not an atheist but I can understand where they are coming from. Science has answered far more questions then religion has. I still go to church, and still pray, but when someone devout starts telling me Biblical fairy Tales about Adam and Eve I tune them out. I like many scripture quotes but have no time for fairy tales. We are going to die one day and thats the end of it. I do however believe people will have to answer for the evil things they do in Life. Of that there is no question.
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So we're taking the religious smorgasbord approach? Pick and choose form what you want to believe from a denomination or text?
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My favorite.
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IIRC Cain was NOT Adam's son............
I don't know where you guys come up with some of this stuff.
Genesis 4:1
And Adam knew Eve his wife; and she conceived and bore Cain
It doesn't get any clearer than that.
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Maybe it was metaphorical?
I love the ones who don't believe what the bible says, but yet try to translate what it means.
Pretty clear to me ChickenHawk. No hidden messages there.
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So we're taking the religious smorgasbord approach? Pick and choose form what you want to believe from a denomination or text?
Back at the time of Christ people thought Dolphins, Seals, and Whales, were Sea monsters. They thought wild pigs were the Devil.
The Modern bible itself was re-written to appease a Pagan Roman Emperor 325 years after the death of Christ. They essentially "picked and choosed" what Christianity was in order to curry political favor from a Idolater and practicer of Pagan religion. So they picked and choosed long before I did.
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First off, Envy IS good. If it weren't for envy, if it weren't for people wanting more, we would still be in the caves bashing our mates over the heads with clubs. Every single item you see around you, every medical, mechanical and motor advancement in the world is the result of envy and greed.
The great human advancements have been driven by curiosity and the drive to better ourselves, not by Envy. The early years of physics, astronomy, human flight and space exploration were not driven by envy, nor was the birth of the USA.
Greed and envy are a part of our modern media and materialistic economy now though and we are told it is our duty to shop till we drop and to keep up with the Joneses. But none of that betters humanity and it certainly doesn't bring happiness. In fact, it's a big reason we have our current political climate and IMO be the downfall of western civilization.
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The great human advancements have been driven by curiosity and the drive to better ourselves, not by Envy. The early years of physics, astronomy, human flight and space exploration were not driven by envy, nor was the birth of the USA.
Greed and envy are a part of our modern media and materialistic economy now though and we are told it is our duty to shop till we drop and to keep up with the Joneses. But none of that betters humanity and it certainly doesn't bring happiness. In fact, it's a big reason we have our current political climate and IMO be the downfall of western civilization.
That, and the Telletubbies.
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The Modern bible itself was re-written to appease a Pagan Roman Emperor 325 years after the death of Christ. They essentially "picked and choosed" what Christianity was in order to curry political favor from a Idolater and practicer of Pagan religion. So they picked and choosed long before I did.
And then we can ride the translation errors from Hebrew and Greek all night long! Come on ride the train, and ride it!
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WRAG
i must say you hit the nail right on the head.
someone mentioned that Christendom is the way of Satan, they may not be far off ether.
Falcon
i do believe you love God, but you gotta think about things, Yeshua says " beware savage wolves will come among you in sheep's clothing."
all of Christendom today are off shuts off catholicism, they say there priests can "forgive sins" they say to pray to Mary, they Baptize small children,
they preach the "cross" do you know the original word was 'stauros", witch simply means "stake" the cross was a pagan symbol, they "Catholic church" changed the worship day from Saturday to Sunday, to get more followers, those who worshiped the sun god Apollo.
how many people where killed in the inquisitions? millions from what Ive read.
what does Yeshua say? " you will know them by there works "
who is gonna try to be the "Christ" at the end of time? Satan, but he is not coming as himself he is coming as "Christ" think about this Falcon,
"...he will bruise your head, but you will bruise his heal.." Yeshua's heal, his followers in his footsteps. he (Satan) has been setting up for his deceiving of all men,(if possable even the elect), so he will show himself to be "Christen" the "Christ"
this is REVELATIONS 17:3
think about the vision " and i saw a woman sitting on the scarlet beast... she was clothed in purple and Scarlett and adorned with gold and precious stones and pearls, having in her hand a golden cup full of the abominations and the filthiness of her fornication's..."
i believe this is the roman Catholic church, and in a few verses later we find proof
one of the angels explains the vision
REVELATION:17-9
"here is the mind which has wisdom, the seven heads are seven MOUNTIANS on which the woman sits."
did you know that Rome has been called "the city of seven hills" ?
I'm telling ya you got to get a Strong's concordance it brings every word back to the original ,
even then it might not be perfect, mine says the the Hebrew "VAV" is W, but that is incorrect it is V.
LAZS
i see you are taking part in this topic, if you have a few min. you should scroll back, a few pages and read my testimony to the original poster.
i truly hope you do read it.
any ways i hope you all find peace.
Paul
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I don't know where you guys come up with some of this stuff.
Genesis 4:1
And Adam knew Eve his wife; and she conceived and bore Cain
It doesn't get any clearer than that.
first off the KJV was written in 1611,
and some things you cant take at face value,
for instance
John:6-56
" he who eats my flesh and drinks my blood abides in me and i in them"
there are so many more. but you have to do your own homework.
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first off the KJV was written in 1611,
and some things you cant take at face value,
for instance
John:6-56
" he who eats my flesh and drinks my blood abides in me and i in them"
there are so many more. but you have to do your own homework.
Are you saying Jesus didn’t advocate cannibalism? Cause I kinda dug that about him.... :aok
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Are you saying Jesus didn’t advocate cannibalism? Cause I kinda dug that about him.... :aok
:lol
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first off the KJV was written in 1611,
and some things you cant take at face value,
for instance
John:6-56
" he who eats my flesh and drinks my blood abides in me and i in them"
there are so many more. but you have to do your own homework.
There are literal verses and symbolic verses. You're quote is symbolic where as Genesis was written by Moses as history, so that it would not be lost to future generations. Try as I might, I can't see why Moses would say that Cain was the son of Adam and Eve if he wasn't. Why would you not take this verse for what it says?
If you look at Genesis 4:1 in Strongs concordance, you will not find any hidden meaning in it. It's right there is black and white.
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There are literal verses and symbolic verses. You're quote is symbolic where as Genesis was written by Moses as history, so that it would not be lost to future generations. Try as I might, I can't see why Moses would say that Cain was the son of Adam and Eve if he wasn't. Why would you not take this verse for what it says?
If you look at Genesis 4:1 in Strongs concordance, you will not find any hidden meaning in it. It's right there is black and white.
okay so when GOD made Adam and Eve, they being the first two people, had two children Cain and Able, Cain kills Able then God sends him out to the world but he is afraid, because ANYONE who sees him will kill him, WHO THE HECK IS HE TALKING ABOUT?, Moses does not say any thing about another people, but clearly there are, for he takes a wife and has kids. and he already says he is afraid of others killing him.
Cain and Able where twins, Cain being the offspring off Satan Abel being the offspring of Adam.
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okay so when GOD made Adam and Eve, they being the first two people, had two children Cain and Able, Cain kills Able then God sends him out to the world but he is afraid, because ANYONE who sees him will kill him, WHO THE HECK IS HE TALKING ABOUT?, Moses does not say any thing about another people, but clearly there are, for he takes a wife and has kids. and he already says he is afraid of others killing him.
Cain and Able where twins, Cain being the offspring off Satan Abel being the offspring of Adam.
The Bible says Adam had sons and daughters and lived eight hundred years. I'm sure there was quite a population boom and there were many people. Moses does not specify when Cain killed Abel and there could have been quite a number of people at that time.
They were not twins:
Genesis 4:2
Then she bore again, this time his brother Abel
Abel was born later.
I must confess as to being a little confused as to why you would disregard the plain speech of Genesis 4:1 in favor of your idea that Cain was the offspring of Satan, for which there is no Biblical basis?
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Ink.. I read your testimony.. I have heard worse.. I rode with worse. I have listened to their stories and came up with a few of my own.. I bet I could tell you a couple from the bad old days that would make you weep for me.
None of that matters.. we are what we are and what we make of ourselves. I believe that there is a god that gives us the strength to do this. Some can't or won't ask for the help.
In the end... one can only guess and "feel" (a word I don't use often) what their god wants for them. When someone quotes this book or that or this person or that to tell me what god intends for me... it leaves me cold.
lazs
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1Corinthians2:11..For what man knoweth the things of a man,except by the spirit of man which is in him?Even so,the things of God knoweth no man,but the spirit of God.
12.Now WE have recieved NOT the spirit of the world,but the spirit which is of God;that WE might know the things that are freely given to us of God..
13.Which things also we speak,not in the words which mans wisdom teaches,but which the Holy Ghost teaches;comparing spiritual things with spiritual.
14.But the NATURAL man recieveth NOT the things of the Spirit of God:for they are FOOLISHNESS to him:NEITHER can he KNOW THEM,because they are spiritually discerned.
The best reply you or I can give anyone who does not believe,is the word of God.The word makes an impact.
I like to say God does not call the equipped,he equips the called. :)
God does not send anyone to hell,they make the choice to not trust and have faith on Jesus as Lord and saviour..Saved from what??? The wrath of God is what..
Hell was not originally made for humans,it was only made for lucifer and the angels that rebelled with him..
And again,I see it coming up that satan had sex with eve,and this is just not true..As chickenhawk has posted..
As far as the catholics moving the sabbath from saturday to sunday ink, is really a moot point..In the NT Paul spoke to this...Does not matter if one "worships" on saturday or sunday,or any other day of the week for that matter,God accepts it the same.
Falcon23 :salute
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This makes me wonder...
HOW would people here react if someone started to post verse from the Koran promoting their version of the afterlife?
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In the end... one can only guess and "feel" (a word I don't use often) what their god wants for them. When someone quotes this book or that or this person or that to tell me what god intends for me... it leaves me cold.
lazs
All of the 'sacred' texts were stories passed on before reading and writing was well established. A hand-me-down wives' tale should be given just as much credibility as the bible and all other 'sacred' texts.
Obviously some people find strength and meaning in it (and more power to them, whatever makes you happy and gives your life meaning) and clearly I'm different, or perhaps suffering from a 'sickness of the soul', because the bible and all other pompous texts claiming authority over life fill me with nothing but vicious contempt.
Then again, I've been on the warpath against religious dogma since I can remember. I was schooled in Catholic schools for my entire education and I saw nothing but lies and false promises the whole time. Some of my teachers were fools and some of them were outstanding people who I genuinely enjoyed speaking to.... but in the end the message they put forward did nothing but insult me. It was through my Catholic schooling that I learnt that morals were best established without any faith influencing their formation. In my opinion, a truly great man acts because he thinks he should, not because he thinks others think he should.
Food for thought, perhaps.
God is a creation of man, not the other way around. Regardless of that, put your faith in god.... it doesn't matter if god exists or not, it doesn't matter if the god you put your faith in exists inside yourself or he exists in all that is around us. Where you draw that 'divine' strength from is not important, it achieves the same end. Put your faith in your 'god' and forget the Bible, forget the Torah, forget the Qur'an. They are the work of man and man cannot be trusted particularly when he seeks to control the way you act. :noid
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They are the work of man and man cannot be trusted particularly when he seeks to control the way you act. :noid
The single most important line in this entire thread! :aok
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xasthur... thank you for proving my point.. most athiests are so because of bitterness and resentment against a god that they were forced to know or who had let them down.
This is unreasonable to me. I too was raised in catholic school and have felt the bitterness.. I have lost people and things and blamed god and denied him.
I think that much of the teachings of religion are man made but that they are divinely inspired. I think that most believe in god not because of some brainwashing but because they feel his presence all around them and seek to understand what he wants from them.
The reason so many believe in god is not because of books but in spite of the books.. only a few.. the athiests.. reject god completely.. only a few are so bitter or self centered or depressed.
Athiesm is in itself a religion based on faith. it is one that ignores all the things one sees and feels based only on faith.. athiests are agenda driven and preach every chance they get.
It is not bright and witty and hip to me to here an athiest spout off..it is just one more preacher spouting his fear and bitterness.
lazs
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Lazs, it seems that you are not really reading what I've typed here. How can you be bitter against something you do not believe in? It is not possible. I've not been forced to know or let down by a god. There is nothing there to be let down by.
I'm sure that most true believers do believe what they believe because they 'feel something'. That does not mean that one's most personal feelings cannot be found in an ancient story book. If you erased the bible from existence such that it never existed I am certain that if you interviewed every person who 'felt god' you would get very different accounts on the nature of 'his' power. The bible is just a story that provides a list of symptoms that the spiritual exhibit and as such, can identify with it. This can be likened to diagnosing someone with cancer when they present with nausea, vomiting and a headache. The bible is just an easy answer to a most complex question.
God is a human creation, if there was no book there would be no 'god' as we understand it. People may feel spiritually stimulated without the book but it is only when people sit around and start fantasizing that the book and thus the 'god that you seek to understand and know what he wants from you' comes to be.
I preach nothing but a willingness to explore existence! I adhere to no singular belief as that is the root of what I despise about organised religion.... willful closed mindedness. It is akin to a child jamming its fingers in its ears and yelling "la la la la, I'm not listening, la la la". It is easy to see how the Christian tale came to be... life was very hard when the story began. Even now bad things happen to good people and good things happen to bad people.... The bible allows people to believe that it will all be ok in the end. The bible is a comfort for the downtrodden which has followed man through the ages.
I am no atheist, I am a man with a brain who won't accept the answer without proof...particularly when the answer is provided by rambling men.
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i am not sorry to say this,
BUT the only and i do mean only TRUTH in this world today is The HOLY BIBLE
i will no more " throw my pearls of wisdom before swine "
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i am not sorry to say this,
BUT the only and i do mean only TRUTH in this world today is The HOLY BIBLE
i will no more " throw my pearls of wisdom before swine "
I'm not sorry to say this either..
1 + 1 = 2
The only real truth in the world lies in what you can measure.. Not the words of man..
Here's a question for you.. Do you believe the Earth is round or flat??
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One of the ongoing battles of my life has been the notion of 'God'. Watching my father die at age 45 a month before my son was born made me question what kind of God would do that to such a good man as my father. Having now lost my son and one of my daughters, it's made it even more difficult. I don't know what i believe about God and 'his' role if any.
What I do know, is I believe I will see my kids again. It's about all that keeps me getting out of bed some days when the grief is overwhelming. I have to believe that, or there is no point. They were proof to me of something bigger then all this. I guess that's faith, and how a person defines their faith is up to them. And to me that faith is far seperate from 'religion'. I have no faith in religion as in my mind it's been corrupted and abused by man forever.
If I didn't have that faith in seeing the kids again, I'd have gone off the cliff 2 years, 10 months and three days ago.
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Hang on to that faith Guppy. I've struggled with grief since my son died about 15 months ago. I have so much wanted to be reassured he is well. Since then I've come to the realization that it is only my faith which allows me joy in knowing he is well. When I experience that joy I have on a few occasions gotten a sense of his presence. It is brief and fleeting but I feel it is real. When I despair I feel alone, everytime, without exception.
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Hang on to that faith Guppy. I've struggled with grief since my son died about 15 months ago. I have so much wanted to be reassured he is well. Since then I've come to the realization that it is only my faith which allows me joy in knowing he is well. When I experience that joy I have on a few occasions gotten a sense of his presence. It is brief and fleeting but I feel it is real. When I despair I feel alone, everytime, without exception.
My wife has that happen often. We knew they were gone before it was official as she all of a sudden had them right there in her chest. Now and then she'll get a warm feel on her cheek and she know's which kid it is. It's very reassuring for her during the worst times. I've not had that happen, but I trust what she's feeling. Probably a strange way to think, but each new day is one day closer.
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I was sleeping when my dad died. Witnessed it through the dream I was having. Anyway, he's around every now and then.
Not looking forward to meeting him though.,...although I have many friends gone that I miss, I'd rather stay on this side and look on the living for as long as I can.
It's also not all about receiving,it's being there and giving! Don't want to see my kids too young when I take the final bend....
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I've been questioning death lately, and quite frankly, it scares me.
I can't believe in heaven, no matter how hard I try... I find it impossible, that when we die, we go to a place where we're constantly happy... forever, and ever, and ever.
God is the same way for me. There is NO way that some being, figure, or whatever you want to call him, could have created everything we see today.
Plus, there are many different faiths and religious beliefs all over the place. The Indians, for example, believe in many gods, along with reincarnation. The Christians believe in only one god, and when we die, we go to Heaven with a fresh body.
But, if all religions believe they are right, then all but one of them are wrong, if not all of them. Because they can't all exist.
In my opinion, God, Heaven, and every other religion to date, was made up so that life would have meaning. The Greeks had a god for allot of things. A goddess of love and beauty. A god of the sky, and a god of the sea. But today, we somehow have discarded all that information, and we all somehow "know" that it doesn't exist.
If you ask multiple people what heaven is like, they will always have a different oppinion, and it's always some ridiculous story of how we "dematerialize" and end up naked in heaven... :huh
If you ask a christian if god exists, they will say "yes". But ask them what proof of his existence is there, they will probably say "because he is in our souls." or something like that.
So, in summary, as much as it pains me to say it, I don't believe in heaven or god.
So, when we die... we die, forever, and when our loved ones die, we will never see them again.
Please, someone, help me change my mind. I want to believe, but I just can't.
I pity you, dude.
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Death? I'm still questioning life...
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dred.. that seemed to be a pretty long winded (and preachy) way of saying that you hate organized religion and are an agnostic.
If you are an agnostic.. hard to tell.. mixed signals... if you believe that god is a creation of man that would seem to say that you don't believe a god exists... that would mean athiest which would mean you are part of a faith based religion.
I have no idea if any religion is the one god endorses.. I believe that all religions that worship a creator who cares about us are divinely inspired but have suffered an unoviodable amount of corruption by people and time.
I am sure you are wrong about religion making us all believe in god and that athiests are not the natural way of things at all. No society that we can think of was without a god. All peoples have always believed in a god.
The manifestation the.. application of such beliefs by men seeking power or glory or money or whatever have been the problem not god.
The reason everyone but a few athiests believe in a god is not because they were indoctrinated but because it is so obvious.. big bag and evolution aside... it is obvious and all around us. we can feel it... we can feel what god wants for us. Athiests aren't the tiny little fraction of us who can think clearly.. they are the tiny little fraction of us who refuse to believe what they see and feel.
lazs
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Your god-fearing side is starting to blind your arguments.
Man created god. This is true, man created the concept of god. Without the man-made concept of 'god' there is just some 'feeling' that you have that is not shared by all.
I do not ever get the 'feeling' that there is a deity at work. So nothing is obvious and what you think 'god wants for us' is just your interpretation of events that unfold around you.
The fact that most civilisations through history have created some higher being shows only that humanity is pathetically flawed and is unable to fully cope with their enhanced cognitive faculties. Christian faith is a pain-killer, it eases the pain of life and eases one's fear of death... because death is not the end... in fact, it's a good because heaven awaits.
I'd be very surprised if this 'everyone' you so vaguely refer to actually feels 'what god wants for them'.
You're jumping to a very simple answer for a very complex question. God is not obvious, it is easy. That is why so many people 'feel' god.
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I have to agree with Lazs, you guys sound a bit more agnostic than stone cold atheist :)
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unless you are bedridden.. australlia would seem a perfect place to see and feel a gods work all around you.
I cant argue with an agnostics position if he really feels it. I do distrust the athiest position tho. It seems agenda driven and not genuine.
lazs
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Nothing makes life more treasurous than almost getting killes.
Know this one from first hand.
Enjoy and emrace life, and try at least to make a footprint that is positive!
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and try not too long for the relief that death will bring!
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...The fact that most civilisations through history have created some higher being shows only that humanity is pathetically flawed and is unable to fully cope with their enhanced cognitive faculties. Christian faith is a pain-killer, it eases the pain of life and eases one's fear of death... because death is not the end... in fact, it's a good because heaven awaits....
You're starting with an a priori assumption, and rather than acknowledging that it's an assumption you're using it to "prove" your point. In essence, you're doing the same thing as a Christian who tries to prove something by quoting the Bible.
On the other hand, you can't ever prove something doesn't exist -- can't prove a negative, so the burden does kinda fall on the believers to provide something to support their beliefs. I'm no master theologian or apologist, but I've thought a lot about these issues and I think there are several points worth making. (BTW, as a latecomer to the thread I'm exercising the assumed right to not read all 8 pages before posting! :lol Apologies if I resort to ground that's already been covered.)
1. One of the oldest evidences for the existence of a god notes that humans have a distinct MORAL sense, which assumes the existance of an overarching framework of right and wrong. Note that this is entirely different from an instinct, which in itself is neither moral or immoral. In other words, we have a set of instinctual urges that drive our behavior, like the need to eat or sleep or have sex or stay alive. ON their own, these are neither considered good nor bad -- and in most circumstances we decide between those instincts with an automatic prioritizer so we don't (for example) try to rob a tiger of its kill. Instincts fit right in to "nature" and seem to be entirely part and parcel of the physical world.
On the other hand, the sense of morality acts like it is from a different plane altogether. It tells us what we ought to do, and assumes that it has an authority instinct simply lacks...doing what is "right" stands on an altogether different plane than choosing which instinct is most functional at a given time. Even more troublesome from an empiric, naturalistic standpoint is the fact that moral actions OFTEN require actions that REDUCE the likelihood of the individual surviving. And even when statistically speaking some rationale for altruistic behaviors can be explained (ie imagine a drive to help related individuals, which would tend to preserve the altruism genes in relatives) -- you can easily argue that this evolutionary altruistic instinct is not the same thing at all, because it results in benefits! If that were the whole story, we should have a "moral" drive to help those most like us, when in reality what we find our inward morality really respects is the truly unselfish act that shows no direct or indirect benefit to ourselves. If that doesn't come from outside ourselves, how can we explain the way we find ourselves admiring actions that reduce the likelihood of passing on genes?
Bottom line -- the very fact that we see something as "right" or "wrong" (instead of effective, or helpful, or natural) provides evidence that there is a level of existance outside the natural world.
Will stop here to avoid "Unread Wall of Text" syndrome.
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So Cain is punished for being proud of doing a good job, and envious that Able doesn't even really try and still skates by?
No, that's not it at all. Completely off the track.
Look at it this way: God (who after all is supposedly a superior being) tells humanity "This is the way I ask from you."
Able says, "Cool. If that's what you ask for, that's what I'll give you."
Cain says, "Forget that. I'll do it my way, regardless of what you say you want." (At the core, doing this says Cain considered HIS perspective more important than God's -- which means Cain didn't think God was much of a God at all.)
God says, "Able did what I asked, Cain didn't -- and even worse, Cain's heart attitude isn't all that hot. I accept what Able gives, but as for Cain's "offering"...well, not so much."
Cain gets pizzed off, gets jealous, and the rest is history.
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Hmmm, way back in college I took a philosophy class, and the whole semester was based on discussing "morality" without allowing religion to be used/considered.
For example, is murder immoral, or moral? Can you argue that it is immoral for reasons other than "God says so"? Plato (IIRC) said that morality was based on a simple "happy/unhappy" scale. If an act causes more happiness than unhappiness, it's moral. Murder may make the murderer happy, but the unhappiness of the friends, family, and victim (before death) outweighs the happiness, making the act immoral.
I don't feel that a sense of morality is even the slightest "proof" of a "higher being". I'm biased of course, and believe strongly that man created god in his own image.
Personally, I'd argue that a "moral sense" is really nothing more than a social animal behaving in a manner to allow himself/herself to be a welcome, valuable member of the group. Our lives may be more sophisticated than other animals, but we're driven by the same basic needs. We're social beings, and being an accepted member of the group is a requirement to a "successful" life, in the most basic sense. It allows us to successfully pass on our genes. The survival of our offspring is more likely in a group, and acting in a manner that benefits the group benefits the individual, or more importantly the individuals offspring or possible offspring. And an act that benefits the individual is only acceptable if it doesn't hurt the group.
Even a "selfless" act isn't necessarily truly "selfless" in long-term effect. In fact, the more "selfless" you are, the more esteemed/valuable you'll appear to your group, which is a benefit to yourself (no longer selfless...)
Even creating a "god" for a society to believe in can be beneficial, if it helps tie the group together and strengthens good group-oriented behavior. It can even threaten a punishment for an anti-group act, even if nobody from the group knows of the act. In a social animal, survival/prosperity of the group is all-important, since survival of the individual relies on survival of the group.
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Hmmm, way back in college I took a philosophy class, and ...
What a collassal waste of time. Ther was frisbee to be played, beer to be consumed, and coeds to chase.
Wait... maybe you were chasing a babe at the time...
What did she look like, this babe in the philosophy class?
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Oogly,
I once knew a man with the same questions as you have. He prayed every night asking for God to show him a sign that he existed, but no answer ever came. The young man went on as usual for several years like this, living in the shop at his job, drinking and drugging his money away until finally he lost his job and was living in homeless shelters with hobos and mental cases. For 10 years this man went on clinging to hope that a miracle would fall from the sky and save him. Until one day he found his self in prison for stealing a automobile, because he needed a warm place to sleep at night.
One night he had a dream that to this day he can't really explain, except to say it filled him with such a over powering feeling of peace. He seen a woman he did not know in that dream, but could tell they were very much in love with each other. Somehow he knew this dream had meaning.
A year later he met that woman and married her a year after that. They now have 2 wonderful kids,4 cars,2 houses, cats, dogs and a Tv in everyroom. More then the man could ever dream of.
I can't explain it, but something told me that night in my prison cell that all would turn out alright and the someone was looking over me. It took me almost 30 years to get a response from God. He's a busy man these days and sometimes our problems and questions aren't always at the top of his priorty list.
All you have to do is believe. And the rest will fall into place my friend. God has a plan for us all and that includes you. I'm not a religious man. I haven't been to church in years, but I truely believe the Lord is watching out for all of us. :salute
P.S. that dream is the only one in my life I've ever remembered
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Some VERY intelligent and well thought out philosophy
:aok
That's pretty much the same thing I came away with from studying sociology when I was doing my B.A.
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You're starting with an a priori assumption, and rather than acknowledging that it's an assumption you're using it to "prove" your point. In essence, you're doing the same thing as a Christian who tries to prove something by quoting the Bible.
I'll have to disagree with you on that, I don't believe that my suggestion is at all like quoting the bible. I believe it provides a more likely explanation for the existence of faith.
Bottom line -- the very fact that we see something as "right" or "wrong" (instead of effective, or helpful, or natural) provides evidence that there is a level of existance outside the natural world.
MtnMan has already explained in sufficient detail what I was going to say in response to this, so I will merely add a small amount. 'Right' and 'wrong' are products of social conditioning. Why do you think people explain a child's bad behaviour away with the excuse "he's only a child, he doesn't know any better"?
As social creatures humans learn right from wrong throughout the process of their socialisation. A sense of morality is not an intrinsic quality of mankind, it is a learned value system.
If a sense of morality was proof of the existence of a higher power then morality would be a universal understanding, not a localised set of values. This is most certainly not the case, as morality is understood very differently all over the world. Assuming that there is not more than one god, which would open the possibility of differing sets of morals, your example of morality does not help your argument for a deity at all.
:salute
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For example, is murder immoral, or moral? Can you argue that it is immoral for reasons other than "God says so"? Plato (IIRC) said that morality was based on a simple "happy/unhappy" scale. If an act causes more happiness than unhappiness, it's moral. Murder may make the murderer happy, but the unhappiness of the friends, family, and victim (before death) outweighs the happiness, making the act immoral.
First, want to make it clear that I'm not smart enough to have come up with this stuff. From what I've read, this idea -- that the nature of the moral sense implies a higher plane exists -- has been around a long time. But it seems to me that there is value in the idea, because it opens discussion along empiric lines that don't require either "side" to go to their special texts.
There is a problem with relativistically determined morality -- since it is derived in the context of the community, there is no absolute standard against which a community's morality can be judged. To take the extreme example (and to risk invoking Godwin's Law), think about Nazi Germany: Germany was in disarray, but Nazi leaders made decisive moves that improved the economy, created political stability, and gave the people purpose. We find their racial prejudice and repressive policies immoral, but one could argue that from the perspective of their own culture it was entirely functional...
And that point just highlights the difference I'm talking about. Think about how different it feels to regard someone as "dysfunctional" compared with "immoral." Thats the chief problem with community derived explanations of morality -- they lack the ability to explain the way the moral sense seems to exist on a plane higher than mere practicality.
(Oh, and as for the "maximize happiness" explanation -- it really doesn't hold up very well. Imagine that there was an assassination, and that no one could find the killer...but the government frames someone so a scapegoat is available. Considering the frameup in isolation, having a culprit makes the entire population happy, and really only the family of the victim are saddened -- but the frame up is clearly immoral.)
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I'll have to disagree with you on that, I don't believe that my suggestion is at all like quoting the bible. I believe it provides a more likely explanation for the existence of faith.
:salute
I understand what you're saying, but I guess I didn't do a good enough job with what I was trying to get across. Here's what I meant:
When you say, for example, "I believe it provides an explanation for the existence of faith" you're using personal opinion as evidence. Even if you left out the words, "I believe...." your position STARTS with the assumption that there is no god. In that sense, you're relying on an unproven assumption as the foundation for your explanation -- which in that sense is similar to what happens when a christian tries to prove his point by going to the bible.
And no offense intended.
This is actually pretty interesting stuff to think about, and I appreciate the way that things have been civil so far. Realistically, guys like us have thought things through to our satisfaction long ago...so odds are that nobody's going to change their minds after the discussion.
So why bother? Simply this: I'd hope that through discussions like this, people with can at least respect the intellectual foundations of each others' beliefs. Speaking as a member of a minority (theists in modern Western Civilization!), it'd be nice to not always hear that "ignorant Bible thumping dupes in polyester suits" undertone when people talk about faith.... :D :D
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1Corinthians2:11..For what man knoweth the things of a man,except by the spirit of man which is in him?Even so,the things of God knoweth no man,but the spirit of God.
12.Now WE have recieved NOT the spirit of the world,but the spirit which is of God;that WE might know the things that are freely given to us of God..
13.Which things also we speak,not in the words which mans wisdom teaches,but which the Holy Ghost teaches;comparing spiritual things with spiritual.
14.But the NATURAL man recieveth NOT the things of the Spirit of God:for they are FOOLISHNESS to him:NEITHER can he KNOW THEM,because they are spiritually discerned.
The best reply you or I can give anyone who does not believe,is the word of God.The word makes an impact.
I like to say God does not call the equipped,he equips the called. :)
God does not send anyone to hell,they make the choice to not trust and have faith on Jesus as Lord and saviour..Saved from what??? The wrath of God is what..
Hell was not originally made for humans,it was only made for lucifer and the angels that rebelled with him..
And again,I see it coming up that satan had sex with eve,and this is just not true..As chickenhawk has posted..
As far as the catholics moving the sabbath from saturday to sunday ink, is really a moot point..In the NT Paul spoke to this...Does not matter if one "worships" on saturday or sunday,or any other day of the week for that matter,God accepts it the same.
Falcon23 :salute
Couldn't have said it better. :aok :salute :salute
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sorry.. the right and wrong without a religion thing doesn't fly on the happy/unhappy scale.
There are plenty that would not be missed.. a bum causes you to have to see and smell him.. no one likes him but he is doing no real harm. you kill him.. you are happy..the people who had to smell and see him SHOULD be happy... no one knew or liked him so no one SHOULD suffer.. is the killing moral?
Of course not but.. why not? the people who SHOULD be unaffected or happier are not.. why is that? they sense an injustice.. they know it is immoral to kill without reason... their god tells them so.
lazs
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Not necessarily. Another common human moral value is that of equality. Given that is considered wrong to kill those who have families (according to the 'happy scale') that same consideration should be extended to other humans regardless of their circumstances.
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Not necessarily. Another common human moral value is that of equality. Given that is considered wrong to kill those who have families (according to the 'happy scale') that same consideration should be extended to other humans regardless of their circumstances.
Nope, that one doesn't fly at all.
"Equality" has only been a common (non-religious) standard since the enlightenment. In medieval, ancient, and prior cultures hierarchy was the norm -- and the powerful didn't have any compunction about taking advantage of the weak. Even (AFAIK) ancient religions have little to say about equality.
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how did we get equality to be a moral value based on the liberal professors "happy/unhappy" simplistic and bogus view of things?
You could say we "empathize" but how do you measure that? it is what all undamaged humans have tho but where did it come from? maybe a "big bang" of morality? Perhaps evolution?
If you steal a dime from someone who didn't even know they had it.. why should you feel bad?
lazs
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I understand what you're saying, but I guess I didn't do a good enough job with what I was trying to get across. Here's what I meant:
When you say, for example, "I believe it provides an explanation for the existence of faith" you're using personal opinion as evidence. Even if you left out the words, "I believe...." your position STARTS with the assumption that there is no god. In that sense, you're relying on an unproven assumption as the foundation for your explanation -- which in that sense is similar to what happens when a christian tries to prove his point by going to the bible.
Clearly I have been too blunt with my position on the non-existence of 'God'. When I say that I believe there is no 'God' I mean that I believe there is no god in the sense that the deity found in any 'sacred' text. My position is one that considers any accurate representation supernatural events from biblical times is impossible or at least highly unlikely. Thus, when I say that god is but a creation of man I am saying that the God that sent Jesus to us and resides in heaven is nothing but a creation of man.
I go on from there to suggest that these soothing notions of heaven, reward for just actions and eternal afterlife in paradise is all just 'spiritual heroin' cooked by humanity's inability to cope with reality.
I am not so arrogant as to rule out the possibility of a omnipresent being, I just find the Judeo-Christian version of this possible deity to be impossibly unlikely.
This is actually pretty interesting stuff to think about, and I appreciate the way that things have been civil so far. Realistically, guys like us have thought things through to our satisfaction long ago...so odds are that nobody's going to change their minds after the discussion.
So why bother? Simply this: I'd hope that through discussions like this, people with can at least respect the intellectual foundations of each others' beliefs. Speaking as a member of a minority (theists in modern Western Civilization!), it'd be nice to not always hear that "ignorant Bible thumping dupes in polyester suits" undertone when people talk about faith.... :D :D
At least we can agree on this part, I am not here to offend anyone and I'm not here to 'convert' anyone. I find the way people view the world and the nature of existence fascinating and an entertaining way to best understand the foundation of other's beliefs is to 'argue' it out.
I don't care who believes what, I'm just putting my own views out there for critique and comparison.
:salute
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xasthur.. by your definition.. I don't believe in god either as I do not believe in the writings of any religion I know of.
I do believe that every one of em is divinely inspired but have been distorted or heaped meaning on.
I do believe that we go on after this. I do not know in what form or for what reason and can wait to find out but do not fear it. I will find out soon enough.
lazs
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Nope, that one doesn't fly at all.
"Equality" has only been a common (non-religious) standard since the enlightenment. In medieval, ancient, and prior cultures hierarchy was the norm -- and the powerful didn't have any compunction about taking advantage of the weak. Even (AFAIK) ancient religions have little to say about equality.
Morality is socially defined concept. Different societies will have different understandings of morality.
In fact, saying that people once did not embrace the 'Love thy neighbour' commandment only further undermines the view that morality is an 'external force' and a product of god as equality as we understand it now is a product of this age of humanity.
Were 'right and wrong' eternal truths held and made by God they would consistant and unchanging owing to the infallible nature of the Christian deity.
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why would anyone embrace a morality that didn't directly benifiet them?
lazs
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Simple. If humans were indiviualistic hunters it would not benefit us at all. Humans are not, however, and as we all operate within a community group fostering the morality of equality, the right to life and respect of property etc benefits everyone. If we are all taught to respect these beliefs then these things that we do not want to happen to us are less likely to happen to us.
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One of the oldest evidences for the existence of a god notes that humans have a distinct MORAL sense, which assumes the existance of an overarching framework of right and wrong.
And what specific MORAL sense would that be? Don't kill? Don't steal? Don't deprive others of freedom, such as slavery?
Different religions, including christianity, have remained ambivalent or even encouraged these behaviors under certain situations over time. You're going to have a hard time arguing there is an immutable specific set of acceptable and unacceptable behaviors.
On the other hand, there is a growing literature of the adaptive value of certain altruistic behavior in animals. In order for species to survive long term, many individuals must serve the interests of others, even when there's no direct, immediate benefit to themselves. If this were not the case then many species would have died out long ago from eating their own offspring. Dig deeply enough into altruistic behaviour and you're likely to find a a selfish motive, but there are altruistic behaviors that seem to have no selfish motive. Bees for example are altruistic, the workers "sacrificing" fertility for the sake of the entire hive. A recent study showed rats were willing to go without food in order to relieve a fellow rat of pain, but only if they like each other.
Survival requires altruism, so altruism evolves.
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And what specific MORAL sense would that be? Don't kill? Don't steal? Don't deprive others of freedom, such as slavery?
Different religions, including christianity, have remained ambivalent or even encouraged these behaviors under certain situations over time. You're going to have a hard time arguing there is an immutable specific set of acceptable and unacceptable behaviors
First, don't mistake my point and leap to the next one. What I've looked at so far is just the EXISTANCE of a moral imperative, as distinct from a "this is better than that" instinct. Again, the difference between a "mistake" or a "bad idea" as opposed to a "morally wrong decision." So what I'm talking about is NOT whose moral code is right, but rather that the essentially universal existence of the moral impulse has implications all its own.
And here's where I'm going with that line of reasoning: While it's one thing to see people agree on social contracts, it's an entirely different thing when disagreements occur. And in our reaction to those disagreements we get a clue about the difference between "normative" and "moral" behavior. Consider the difference between the way we'd react in these situations: Someone comes to an important formal event having dyed their hair purple and wearing a Tux and tennis shoes(a violation of cultural norms); versus someone in the right clothing who then robs the host. In one case we feel variations on "that's inappropriate", but in the other we say "that's immoral." Or even more directly, think about civil disobedience of some law because it's immoral -- obviously, the protester is rejecting something his society has agreed on, so there's something BEYOND the society's standards that he's relying on.
Which leads to the more important point. Whenever people appeal to a set of standards almost by definition the standards are arising from a plane higher than the one they're operating on. Take a contract between two people. If someone violates the contract and refuses to return the other person's money, the contract doesn't enforce itself. Instead, the enforcement comes from a higher authority, the country's legal code. When a gang member's societal norms allow him to steal, the victim isn't going to think "Oh, what do you expect when cultural norms collide" -- He's going to feel WRONGED as well as angry. And in so doing, he's unconsciously calling on an assumed code of what's moral, independent of your culture and mine. That's the moral sense operating.
So to sum up for those who skip the text wall -- I'm not at all talking about whose morality is "right." I'm just trying to point out the presence of a moral imperative whose very existence suggests something about the nature of reality.
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Thanks guys, for all your meaningful AND meaningless words.
However, I myself am not afraid of death... I die when I die, and either way, I can't decide if heaven exists or not...
It's more of how I'll cope with it when my parents/dog/friends... boat... when THEY all die.
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Life is an experience. It has NOTHING to do with right and wrong, good or evil. How we conduct ourselves depends entirely on how we view our own value.
Religion is merely a social construct that helps to define a cohesive set of values that tie a particular community together and equip it to deal with the environment in which they live. When prehistoric man discovered they had a better chance of surviving if they banded together, they began to share their interpretations of the unusual things they noticed in their daily lives, and how they overcame these obstacles. As a means necessary for survival they were passed down orally through the generations, these tales became legends which in the passage of time became woven together as a guide for survival and provided simple explanations for the more unusual inexplicable phenomenon attributed to the supernatural. Different perspectives defined different cultural groups, each having their own belief and these beliefs soon became religions.
Wars would be fought between different cultural groups based entirely on who's golden calf was the biggest and shiniest. The only reason most of the world today is either Christian, Moslem or Jewish is because they had bigger more efficient means of killing those that did not follow their beliefs.
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Life is an experience. It has NOTHING to do with right and wrong, good or evil. How we conduct ourselves depends entirely on how we view our own value.
Religion is merely a social construct that helps to define a cohesive set of values that tie a particular community together and equip it to deal with the environment in which they live. When prehistoric man discovered they had a better chance of surviving if they banded together, they began to share their interpretations of the unusual things they noticed in their daily lives, and how they overcame these obstacles. As a means necessary for survival they were passed down orally through the generations, these tales became legends which in the passage of time became woven together as a guide for survival and provided simple explanations for the more unusual inexplicable phenomenon attributed to the supernatural. Different perspectives defined different cultural groups, each having their own belief and these beliefs soon became religions.
Wars would be fought between different cultural groups based entirely on who's golden calf was the biggest and shiniest. The only reason most of the world today is either Christian, Moslem or Jewish is because they had bigger more efficient means of killing those that did not follow their beliefs.
SD,
It's a lot more helpful -- and more conducive to discussion -- if you talk about the basis of your conclusions before making blanket statements. Naturally you're entitled to your opinion, but if someone's really trying to explain what they think to Oogly and the rest of us it would make sense to explain why they've taken their position, and why it should be taken more seriously than a random "man on the street" interview.
Just sayin, no offense intended.
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It's a bit hard to give you that which you seek. All I was trying to put forth was a way of describing the rise of religion as we know it, and how it becomes integrated into a society.
Most of this is coming from what I experienced when I was a communicant member of the Free Presbyterian Church of Australia and a member of the Church council, what I experienced during my few minutes of death in the late 80's and what I learned studying sociology when I did my B.A. I don't have any reference material on hand.
If you want to know what I actually believe:
No explanation is wanted or needed. To explain something to become attached to both the thing and the explanation, to own it. Ownership is a delusion, because all is impermanent.
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SD and Xasthur:
Hope you guys had a good weekend.
It sounds like both of you have had some seriously negative experiences with people who call themselves Christians...serious enough that they made you skeptical about the whole foundation of the belief system. That doesn't mean that those peoples' actions MADE reject Christianity, though it sounds like they played a role. What other things make the whole idea impossible for you?
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I cannot say that anything MADE me reject the idea, I just outgrew it as my knowledge base increased.
Apart from one incident when I was very young, I have probably had more negative interaction with non christians, that only serves to reinforce the point that christianity does provide a good framework for a positive existence.
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I cannot say that anything MADE me reject the idea, I just outgrew it as my knowledge base increased.
Apart from one incident when I was very young, I have probably had more negative interaction with non christians, that only serves to reinforce the point that christianity does provide a good framework for a positive existence.
Christ was either the son of God or the biggest fraud of all time. Christianity is either the way to salvation or the biggest waste of time there is. I won't buy it is false but still good for society.
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Perhaps God was punishing me for questioning Him and his almighty ways but I've been stricken with gastro for the last few days, so to say that my weekend 'blew' would be quite an understatement! :lol
I hope yours was better, Sim.
As far as religion goes in our day and age, I consider Christianity to be relatively harmless. This was not the case in the past but times have changed and the Christians of today don't cause any problems for me. Christianity has just been the easiest point to discuss in this thread because most people participating are Christian and I was educated in Catholic schools so I couldn't help but pick a few things about the religion along the way. My musical interests have always been on the heavier side of things and my favourite style of music originated in Scandinavia and has always had a very strong anti-Christian theme. I've never fully identified with their militant view against Christians because I come from a Christian country but their heritage of paganism and vikings was 'converted' to Christianity and they feel that their country has been taken from them. Their lyrics and imagery have also lead me to read further into Christianity so I feel that I know Christianity a little better than other major religions.
Religion itself is what I cannot accept as it provides a cause for people to die and kill for, hence why I find Christianity relatively harmless these days... not many suicide bombing priests :lol. However, jokes aside, one only needs to look to the endless fighting in Israel to see the full extent of disgusting, wretched, ignorant, religious fools who fight and die for something they cannot prove. It is this utterly blind, willful ignorance that leads me to believe the very idea of a monolithic structure of beliefs 'to be held above all others' is a fundamentally bad idea. I consider the main problem with the general human understanding of divinity is that it must be a shared experience. If religion became an individualistic experience in which one embraced some sort of divinity that emanated from within themselves I don't think religion would be a problem. This is something of a 'satanic' attitude, I realise, but I do believe that it is a less inherently conflict-inducing understanding of divinity, provided you stay away from the 'evil' that some people embrace with that internal understanding of the divine.
Religion wouldn't concern me if it was followed entirely by level-headed people like yourself, Simaril. The problem is that this is most certainly not the case and religion provides a very big banner for the brainless scum of the earth to flock to.
To answer your question directly, I've not had any seriously negative experiences with Christian people... I've met some very, very simple people who preach God's word and also people who were so insulated from what was going on around them by their silly white robes that were completely out of touch with life altogether. I've also met some very wise and genuine people who heard God's call and these were guys were outstanding teachers who made the passage through high school easier than it would have otherwise been. The men who wore the robes all seemed quite miserable, actually. It was the regular guys with wives and kids who taught the important fundamental Christian values that seemed to have the best grip on life as far as religious experience goes. That suggests to me that it is a respectful moral code that one needs to follow, not any divine figure, that will lead one to a happy and successful existence.
That is the base of the way I view the world at this point (which will always be subject to change until the day I die).
:salute
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SD and Xasthur:
The godless heathens from the land down under! :rock :lol
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As far as religion goes in our day and age...
Sheesh Xasthur! You summed it up very well! I can't even think of anything to disagree with...
I personally find religion in general to be a hugely interesting thing. Definately not my "cup-o-tea"- but I find it intriguing to see what others believe, and why they believe it.
One question I've never found what I consider a satisfying answer to, regarding choice of religion, is this- What made you (a general "you") choose the religion you've chosen. So far, all I've ever gotten is more or less a basic "Huh, I don't know, it's just what I believe in." Most seem to just accept the religion of their parents, who accepted the religion of thiers, who accepted the religion of thiers... Or, if a move occurred (a geographic relocation) a similar, locally popular version seems to be accepted by "default".
For example, I was raised Protestant (consider myself religionless now...) in Illinois. I married, and now live near my wife's family in Wisconsin, where the predominate version is Lutheran. I could/would normally switch to Lutheran, again mostly by what I would consider as "default". But why?
If the everlasting exists, and it's your soul at stake, why not do some research, and pick the religion that makes the most sense? Why take a gamble, that you're relaitives have made the right choice, by not really choosing at all? Seems awful "iffy".
MtnMan
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sorry.. the right and wrong without a religion thing doesn't fly on the happy/unhappy scale.
There are plenty that would not be missed.. a bum causes you to have to see and smell him.. no one likes him but he is doing no real harm. you kill him.. you are happy..the people who had to smell and see him SHOULD be happy... no one knew or liked him so no one SHOULD suffer.. is the killing moral?
Of course not but.. why not? the people who SHOULD be unaffected or happier are not.. why is that? they sense an injustice.. they know it is immoral to kill without reason... their god tells them so.
lazs
This isn't discrediting the happy/unhappy theory. It's simply saying that A) it's immoral to kill someone, even if he/she isn't popular. And that a "social discomfort" would still occur, even if nobody was directly involved. That "social discomfort" or "unhappiness" is what decides the morality issue.
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Oogly.....
Life is but a grain of sand in the hour glass of time dude. I used to worry about it....at times. Not often...now after going thru what my wife and I have been thru with the passing of my Mom....I don't sweat it.
As far as your belief goes.... Nothing anyone can say will prove that God is real or not. With time , age , maturity you'll believe what you want. Something may happen in your life that changes the way you believe. Nothing may happen and you die believing what you did for years.
One thing I do know. For me personally ,and the up bringing I had and still continue to get at the age of 45 my belief system tells me that there is a heavan , and a God. And believeing that one day , I will see all of those that have went before me , family and freinds alike helps ME to deal with issues.
Don't dwell on dying. Dwell on living. It's so much more fun and rewarding.
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Eduard Delacroix: [in the electric chair, about to be executed] Don't forgot about Mouseville.
[Paul and Brutal nod]
Percy Wetmore: Hey. There's no such place. It's just a fairytale these guys told you to keep you quiet. Just thought you should know, studgot.
-The Green Mile
There ain't no Mouseville and there ain't no Heaven- once you're gone you'll never again feel the shock of jumping into a cold pool of water, the warm sun on your shoulders, the smell of a fresh cut lawn- You're just gone, and those left behind will miss you terribly forever.
And if by chance your wrong....some of us wont be seeing you there.
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your getting something lodgeg in you (#&29
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sorry.. the right and wrong without a religion thing doesn't fly on the happy/unhappy scale.
There are plenty that would not be missed.. a bum causes you to have to see and smell him.. no one likes him but he is doing no real harm. you kill him.. you are happy..the people who had to smell and see him SHOULD be happy... no one knew or liked him so no one SHOULD suffer.. is the killing moral?
Of course not but.. why not? the people who SHOULD be unaffected or happier are not.. why is that? they sense an injustice.. they know it is immoral to kill without reason... their god tells them so.
lazs
If the only reason they think that is immoral is because a 'god' tells them it is then they have some problems.
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Go outside on a moonless night and look up into the sky. If you can imagine that we are the only life on all those star systems than you can believe in God. :pray
There are an estimated 10^10 (10 billion) stars in the Milky Way..
there are an estimated 10^10 galaxies in the universe.. (pretty easy to remember
so far, huh? ...*grin*) so that makes 10^20 stars total.
Even Vegas would have odds on other intelligent life out there. :noid :noid
When we die we will all return to the alien ship that is on the other side of the moon. :rofl :rofl :rofl
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There are an estimated 10^10 (10 billion) stars in the Milky Way..
there are an estimated 10^10 galaxies in the universe.. (pretty easy to remember
so far, huh? ...*grin*) so that makes 10^20 stars total.
Theres an easier way to express the number of stars in the universe, there are more stars in the universe then grains of sand on all the beaches of Earth, and it's kinda small minded to think were the only grain of sand that has life.
As for God I just don't see it, I guess I'm just too scientific when it comes to those things, like if God created the Earth, then why was the Earth around for a couple billion years before man was on it, or why dinosaurs were here for millions of years before us, and finally how do you explain the remains of lower forms of human life that have been found that show evolution.
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Theres an easier way to express the number of stars in the universe, there are more stars in the universe then grains of sand on all the beaches of Earth, and it's kinda small minded to think were the only grain of sand that has life.
That really only counts the stars (suns) not the planets that are around those stars. :aok
Agreed :aok
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God ....hmmm....Don't know...al I know is there are 4200 religions, faith groups,tribes,etc etc all have their own story and/or belief with one constant..... there is only one.
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God ....hmmm....Don't know...al I know is there are 4200 religions, faith groups,tribes,etc etc all have their own story and/or belief with one constant..... there is only one.
constant what? :uhoh
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with one constant..... there is only one.
Since when?
The original human belief system started with thousands of gods- many global polytheistic religions still exist today (Hinduism, for example). The majority of those 4200 are probably tribal religions, which, most likely, are polytheistic.
Polytheism,
then Monotheism,
then Atheism.
The evolution of human thought.
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Since when?
The original human belief system started with thousands of gods- many global polytheistic religions still exist today (Hinduism, for example). The majority of those 4200 are probably tribal religions, which, most likely, are polytheistic.
Polytheism, then
then Monotheism,
then Atheism.
The evolution of human thought.
Agreed :aok even our own North and South American native peoples believed in more than one God.
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yes this is true, however different regions,i.e groups,tribes...etc still held one higher than the others, therefore making that 'one'. Others, rulers not sure who as I wasn't there chucked in another and another to suit their purposes. But ultimately for the Greeks was it not Woden who was the King of gods thus making him 'the' god.
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mountain man and mother.. if god is not where we get the morality to not kill even if we can get away with it.. then where?
If is is simply an indoctrinization that is created by man then you really do have problems.
Your happy/unhappy thing makes no sense at all unless you have some morality not of mans making.
lazs
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If the only reason they think that is immoral is because a 'god' tells them it is then they have some problems.
I think you might be missing the point a bit. Your response "if that's the only reason they think its immoral" implies you're referring back to a bigger, more obvous sense of morality. The whole question here is WHERE does that sense come from? And why does it refer to the biigger picture of "right" and "wrong" instead of the more obvious "works" and "doesn't work," or something like that?
In a way, your comment is evidence of what I was talking about a while ago...that we have in us a sense of the moral that transcends day to day experience, and provides some clues to the bigger picture.
And for Xathur, mntman, SD, and others - RL has kept me from the boards lately (obviously I'm not sitting there clicking refresh continuously!). You guys have made seom really good comments. and I jsut don't have the time to respond well right now. Will try to give the time those ideas deserve soon...
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As for God I just don't see it, I guess I'm just too scientific when it comes to those things, like if God created the Earth, then why was the Earth around for a couple billion years before man was on it, or why dinosaurs were here for millions of years before us, and finally how do you explain the remains of lower forms of human life that have been found that show evolution.
It's a parable.
God ....hmmm....Don't know...al I know is there are 4200 religions, faith groups,tribes,etc etc all have their own story and/or belief with one constant..... there is only one.
A brain.
yes this is true, however different regions,i.e groups,tribes...etc still held one higher than the others, therefore making that 'one'. Others, rulers not sure who as I wasn't there chucked in another and another to suit their purposes. But ultimately for the Greeks was it not Woden who was the King of gods thus making him 'the' god.
IIRC they held "gods" much differently from today's "religious" people. It was more like the Japanese today, who consider even inanimate objects to have spirits. E.G you can see this in how they treat robots as conscientiously as humans.
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mountain man and mother.. if god is not where we get the morality to not kill even if we can get away with it.. then where?
If is is simply an indoctrinization that is created by man then you really do have problems.
Your happy/unhappy thing makes no sense at all unless you have some morality not of mans making.
lazs
From the moment you are born you are taught right from wrong by your environment. Do this don't do that. You're supposed to be kind to others, take into account how you'd feel in the situation you're putting someone else in. When you murder someone you're ending a human life. You're ending the existence of another living, breathing, free-thinking human being. It's not hard to see how this is wrong.
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human vanity stokes the campfires for the religious groups... their elitist attitudes towards others pretty much exposes them for what they really are tho.
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motherland.. you are proving my point not yours.. it is not simply the forced learning that restrains us.. it is what we are born with as human beings. If killing another human being is bad simply because we have been taught it is so then we have no morality at all.
What felt good or what advanced our cause would always over run whatever teaching we were forced to listen to. If this were not true then every single kid would stay a weenie womanly liberal after all the 12 or 20 years of having it pounded into him in the school system.
morality comes from god just as we do.
lazs
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I have to agree with lazs, morality is something thats hard wired into our brains, not just learned. We might think about doing things that are bad like murder, but a part of our brain kicks in and stops us from following through with it, although I don't agree it came from God.
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motherland.. you are proving my point not yours.. it is not simply the forced learning that restrains us.. it is what we are born with as human beings. If killing another human being is bad simply because we have been taught it is so then we have no morality at all.
What felt good or what advanced our cause would always over run whatever teaching we were forced to listen to. If this were not true then every single kid would stay a weenie womanly liberal after all the 12 or 20 years of having it pounded into him in the school system.
morality comes from god just as we do.
lazs
well Lazs we certainly don't agree on everything (well mostly nothing) :)
but i have to admit seeing you type this out, makes me happy.
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motherland.. you are proving my point not yours.. it is not simply the forced learning that restrains us.. it is what we are born with as human beings. If killing another human being is bad simply because we have been taught it is so then we have no morality at all.
If you don't think morality that is taught is not real morality than whatever... but keep in mind, all people have different opinions of what is moral, which points to the fact that morality is learned.What felt good or what advanced our cause would always over run whatever teaching we were forced to listen to. If this were not true then every single kid would stay a weenie womanly liberal after all the 12 or 20 years of having it pounded into him in the school system.
We don't learn things only from figures of authority... our peers have large influences on our lives and the molding of our consciousness.
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Oogly50,
I have only one thing for you:
John 3:16
"For God so loved the world that he gave his one and only Son, that whoever believes in him shall not perish but have eternal life."
Second that.
Oogly50, there's just no point in worrying about dying. If anyone tells you that fear of dying will fade as you get older, ignore it. I'm 16 and not overly afraid of it. Sure, I don't want to die, but I know that I will, and I know that when I do, that Heaven comes afterwards.
As for religion, there is no proof that God exists - only faith. You sound like you want to believe in God, so I'd recommend that you search for miracles on Google, and see what comes up. There was a program on PBS a few years ago on Christmas Eve about miracles, and that's part of why I believe in God. Also, try talking to a priest about it.
<S>
Yossarian
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Motherland agreed:aok If we are hard wired for morality then we would have no wars, crime, killings and the third world would value life the same as we do. That doesn't happen ergo morality is learned. :aok
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the only thing i hate about religion is that moses and all these people were able to talk to god. and we believe it right.
but the second some random guy gets on the radio and says he talks to god, everyone thinks hes crazy and makes fun of him.
so what makes moses so specail. If one of your friends came up to you and said hey i spoke to god, you would laugh at him.
to me religion was a way to keep order in the world. the catholics for example rulled europe for thousands of years based on religion. without religion people would not have any thing to strive for. they would not be good because some king told them to. but hell if a man from "god" told them to do something then they better do it or they will burn in hell.
religion is hard to graps... for me its hard to imagine that one thing "god" whatever he/she/it is exsist because of how big the universe is. how did god get to be god?
for me its just something that the government back 20,000 years ago placed on the people just so they could have order amoung the people. which in reality needs to happen for a safe world.
then you see all these people fighting cause of different religion, we it says killing is a sin right. so how the hell can these people believe in something so strong, then go off and totally ignore the biggest sin in the bible and kill 4000 people. i just dont get it.
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Totally Agreed :aok
What came first God or the Egg (who created God)
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What came first God or the Egg (who created God)
Thats my favorite thing to stump religious people with when they say "if theres no God then where did everything come from?"
Theres just somethings we'll never know the answers too, it doesn't mean some invisible guy did it.
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morality comes from god just as we do.
lazs
If this were true, we would be inherently moral, just as we're inherently human. We wouldn't need to be "told" right from wrong, since we'd already know. The Ten Commandments would be redundant. We wouldn't need to be told "Thou Shalt not kill!" any more than we need to be told "Thou Shalt Walk on Two Feet!".
There would be no need to "remind" people of basic moral values, or to understand that different people at different times have DIFFERENT moral values, unless we come from different gods, so therefore have different values.
The happy/unhappy thing isn't mine... It comes from one of the worlds foremost philosophers.
Who says killing people is bad? I think the more accepted view goes more like "killing people your community sees as acceptable is bad." Is it bad for a soldier to kill an enemy? Is he a sinner? Is it bad for me to kill in defense of myself or others?
I know a lady who seems normal, yet swears that dinosaurs never existed. She believes that a certain deity placed those fossils for us to find as a test of our faith.
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If this were true, we would be inherently moral, just as we're inherently human. We wouldn't need to be "told" right from wrong, since we'd already know. The Ten Commandments would be redundant. We wouldn't need to be told "Thou Shalt not kill!" any more than we need to be told "Thou Shalt Walk on Two Feet!".
There would be no need to "remind" people of basic moral values, or to understand that different people at different times have DIFFERENT moral values, unless we come from different gods, so therefore have different values.
The happy/unhappy thing isn't mine... It comes from one of the worlds foremost philosophers.
Who says killing people is bad? I think the more accepted view goes more like "killing people your community sees as acceptable is bad." Is it bad for a soldier to kill an enemy? Is he a sinner? Is it bad for me to kill in defense of myself or others?
I know a lady who seems normal, yet swears that dinosaurs never existed. She believes that a certain deity placed those fossils for us to find as a test of our faith.
well the commandment "thou shalt not kill" a more accurate translation is " thou shall not Murder" not every word of the King James bible, is translated perfect.
it is more to the lines of lying in wait to murder in "cold blood" for no good reason. some people need killing, but mankinds screwed up societies twists the word of God to suit there desires.
but that still does not change the fact that it is wrong to kill for no reason.
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Alot of studies have shown that the brains of murders, and more so serial murders do work differently then a normal person, when they kill someone it doesn't effect them like it would effect you or me, and alot of them have had normal moral upbringings.
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I've been questioning death lately, and quite frankly, it scares me...
Please, someone, help me change my mind. I want to believe, but I just can't.
Thanks guys, for all your meaningful AND meaningless words.
However, I myself am not afraid of death... I die when I die, and either way, I can't decide if heaven exists or not...
It's more of how I'll cope with it when my parents/dog/friends... boat... when THEY all die.
Guess I read this at a bad time.Seemed interesting at first, but if all your worried about is how you'll feel about the demise of someone or something other than yourself. I guess if your a selfish candy @&& you'll cry over yourself, or conversely you saddle up and get over it like every body else.
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well the commandment "thou shalt not kill" a more accurate translation is " thou shall not Murder" not every word of the King James bible, is translated perfect.
it is more to the lines of lying in wait to murder in "cold blood" for no good reason. some people need killing, but mankinds screwed up societies twists the word of God to suit there desires.
but that still does not change the fact that it is wrong to kill for no reason.
This has been a translation to suit... it is thou shalt not kill.... however, how can you kill another human being who has been molded from as they say god and therefore any killing would be a direct assault/killing on the power himself. Thou Shalt not murder and let's put a sub clause under the heading 'Holy War' .... Now let's go get them....
But hey that's only my version of events to help my argument ;)
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This has been a translation to suit... it is thou shalt not kill.... however, how can you kill another human being who has been molded from as they say god and therefore any killing would be a direct assault/killing on the power himself. Thou Shalt not murder and let's put a sub clause under the heading 'Holy War' .... Now let's go get them....
not ALL people call Yahaveh father, some people have satan in there hearts and they Rape, murder, molest,
these people need to be put down like a rabid dog.
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not ALL people call Yahaveh father, some people have satan in there hearts and they Rape, murder, molest,
these people need to be put down like a rabid dog.
"He who is with out sin cast the first stone"
Count me out :devil
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Aye .... but as this post has revealed, everybody believes in something and to them it is true and just. Who is wrong ?
Finalization comes to all. Everything is just electrically generated particles and one day the power will be switched off.
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"He who is with out sin cast the first stone"
Count me out :devil
i hear ya there, thats why I am not a vigilante,
but without a doubt those 3 things, if someone tried with my family, i would not feel guilty about taking there life.
or say if i was was in a store and someone tried to rob it, i would do whatever it took to stop them.
as a Man of God we are supposed to stand up for what is right, no matter the cost.
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Everything is just electrically generated particles and one day the power will be switched off.
MAYBE we are all sims playing flight sims :rofl :rofl
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i hear ya there, thats why I am not a vigilante,
but without a doubt those 3 things, if someone tried with my family, i would not feel guilty about taking there life.
or say if i was was in a store and someone tried to rob it, i would do whatever it took to stop them.
as a Man of God we are supposed to stand up for what is right, no matter the cost.
I had a neighbor that I grew up with, Tom, stand up to a guy that was beating a woman(he didn't know) :mad: Tom was run over and killed trying to help her, he left behind his own wife and couple of kids. :cry I know his wife and kids miss him dearly. don't know if he could do it again if he would.
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but that still does not change the fact that it is wrong to kill for no reason.
Who's to say the crack head robbing the liquor store doesn't have a reason?
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well the commandment "thou shalt not kill" a more accurate translation is " thou shall not Murder" not every word of the King James bible, is translated perfect.
it is more to the lines of lying in wait to murder in "cold blood" for no good reason. some people need killing, but mankinds screwed up societies twists the word of God to suit there desires.
but that still does not change the fact that it is wrong to kill for no reason.
That in itself is interesting- So, it's OK to "translate" the bible to suit the current need? Does that apply for all parts of it, or just select parts? What if your argument requires a "literal" meaning, but mine requires a "translated" meaning? How do we decide who wins, and gets to use the version that works in their favor?
Since it was translated to begin with, is it OK to re-translate it? Can we assume the original translators weren't careful enough with their wording, and didn't really write what they meant to say? Or maybe they just didn't know any better? Or maybe they skewed some parts in their favor, or to strengthen their own arguments? Such muddy water... especially if what was written can't be taken literally...
Before it was ever written, how long was it an "oral tradition"? How often are oral traditions able to remain unchanged over time? Ever try the whisper in someones ear, and pass it around the classroom game?
Did he really walk on water? Or was it really on wet ground? Is it the same in the end? Are we sure nothing was exaggerated from the "original" story, or in translation?
What if my "reason" for killing isn't considered convincing enough to my victim? Does it matter? Or only matter if those left standing agree with me?
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Damn MtnMan, so articulate, That's what my last post was supposed to sound like.
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What if my "reason" for killing isn't considered convincing enough to my victim? Does it matter? Or only matter if those left standing agree with me?
:aok :aok
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This has been a translation to suit... it is thou shalt not kill.... however, how can you kill another human being who has been molded from as they say god and therefore any killing would be a direct assault/killing on the power himself. Thou Shalt not murder and let's put a sub clause under the heading 'Holy War' .... Now let's go get them....
But hey that's only my version of events to help my argument ;)
Might want to talk this over with a Rabi.
In the original language the word used/usage means MURDER.
Also the meanings of words in the English language can and does change very rapidly at times. Probably due to slang becoming part of the dictionary from time to time.
Kill, at one time, was a synonym for murder............
Slay was used for taking life during battle, or when it was kill or be killed.
AND the translators of the ORIGINAL KJV placed in the ORIGINAL KJV right at the front, a letter to the readers WARNING all that they KNEW they had made mistakes during the attempt to translate, but had done their best, and to check them out regarding the translation................
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you don't need the bible or any religion.. God gave us morality.
lazs
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In the original language the word used/usage means MURDER.
Also the meanings of words in the English language can and does change very rapidly at times. Probably due to slang becoming part of the dictionary from time to time.
Kill, at one time, was a synonym for murder............
Slay was used for taking life during battle, or when it was kill or be killed.
In other religions there is no distinction between murder, kill, slay, as they all really mean to take anothers life. Funny how we can have something that will allow us to slay but not murder :rofl
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That in itself is interesting- So, it's OK to "translate" the bible to suit the current need? Does that apply for all parts of it, or just select parts? What if your argument requires a "literal" meaning, but mine requires a "translated" meaning? How do we decide who wins, and gets to use the version that works in their favor?
Since it was translated to begin with, is it OK to re-translate it? Can we assume the original translators weren't careful enough with their wording, and didn't really write what they meant to say? Or maybe they just didn't know any better? Or maybe they skewed some parts in their favor, or to strengthen their own arguments? Such muddy water... especially if what was written can't be taken literally...
Before it was ever written, how long was it an "oral tradition"? How often are oral traditions able to remain unchanged over time? Ever try the whisper in someones ear, and pass it around the classroom game?
Did he really walk on water? Or was it really on wet ground? Is it the same in the end? Are we sure nothing was exaggerated from the "original" story, or in translation?
What if my "reason" for killing isn't considered convincing enough to my victim? Does it matter? Or only matter if those left standing agree with me?
well the King James Bible was written in 1611, from the earliest known manuscripts, there are no surviving original words left by the writers.
saying that, the KJV most feel is the best translation out there, i have read at least 5 different Christen bibles and they are so close as to be the same, but if you really want to understand Gods words its good to try to bring it back to the Manuscripts.
the best way to do that is with Strongs concordance.
one thing that i found many years ago that was a convincing argument in favor of the Bible,
in Isaiah he describes God
this one passage
Isaiah 40-22 "it is he who sits above the circle of the Earth"
back than (almost 3000 years ago) people thought the world was flat, how did this man know the world was circular ? he God and when you know God you know the truth.
it reads different in each bible that ive checked out, but it all says the same thing. the world is round.
SD
ya the Crack head has a reason, but it does not make it right.
that old saying "Might makes right" is not truth.
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The bible is a story of how we were put on Earth by the giant mother ship that is going to come back for us :rofl
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In other religions there is no distinction between murder, kill, slay, as they all really mean to take anothers life. Funny how we can have something that will allow us to slay but not murder :rofl
How is it funny?
If someone comes to your home with the intention of doing you or your family some serious harm, their reason doesn't matter! And you SLAY them instead....(You could ask Sharon Tate if she were alive)
Vs.
You (not sayin you would do this! using it to answer your question) walking up to someone at a automatic teller and MURDER them for the money they just got out of the machine......
the two stated scenarios are VERY different to me, what do you think?
And how is either one funny?
Not all languages have different words or meanings for different variations of a thing. English however does.
A quick example ... execution by lethal injection... some consider this state sponsored MURDER while others do not.
In either case it is a DIFFERENT word used to describe a different form/way of taking life.
English can be a difficult language to master even for native speakers..............
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How is it funny?
If someone comes to your home with the intention of doing you or your family some serious harm, their reason doesn't matter! And you SLAY them instead....(You could ask Sharon Tate if she were alive)
Vs.
You (not sayin you would do this! using it to answer your question) walking up to someone at a automatic teller and MURDER them for the money they just got out of the machine......
the two stated scenarios are VERY different to me, what do you think?
And how is either one funny?
I find it funny :rofl that we can manipulate the english language to make thing OK that really are not.
Does a person have to die in your house because he is attacking you. Is it your place to say he lives or dies. Take him to an inch of death surely but not kill him. I know I have had these feeling before and stopped just short, wasn't my call, even though at the time I surely felt like it.
In our society we seem to be able to justfiy some weird things :confused:
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I find it funny :rofl that we can manipulate the english language to make thing OK that really are not.
Does a person have to die in your house because he is attacking you. Is it your place to say he lives or dies. Take him to an inch of death surely but not kill him. I know I have had these feeling before and stopped just short, wasn't my call, even though at the time I surely felt like it.
In our society we seem to be able to justfiy some weird things :confused:
OK?
How is it OK?
Not sure I'm following your reasoning here?
IMHO the taking the life of or causing the demise of another human being is NEVER OK ... and if possible should be avoided..............
BUT if one individual,without a justifiable cause, deliberately places another individual or several individuals in a situation where it becomes kill or be killed then it becomes necessary that a choice be made. One can choose to die, or perhaps more correctly be MURDERED, or one can SLAY, if they are able, their attacker........
To me there is a BIG difference there!
One person is choosing to end the life, or lives of others for, NO apparent or justifiable reason.
OR a person, or persons, finds they are under attack with the ending of their life as the purpose of that attack............
AND the English Language reflects that difference.
When SLAYING another there is, by meaning, a type of justification for the action.
When MURDERING another there is NOT, by meaning, ANY justification for the action.
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IMHO the taking the life of or causing the demise of another human being is NEVER OK ... and if possible should be avoided..............
:aok :aok
I understand the Kill or be killed saying but we as a society are moving towards non lethal force like it or not. Just because today we can get away with it doesn't mean in the future we will be able to. Slayings will go the same way as honor killings and the old wild west gunfight.
The deep problem with this way of thinking is that it is going to be a virus that will spread to the militaries of the world. We have already started with precision bombing to reduce casulties. :confused: Armies used to plunder and take the spoils now we give it back? We are at the beginning of a huge change and there is nothing we can do about it.
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Right and wrong are just words. Concepts used to bind and restrict, as are good and evil, they have absolutely no bearing on life but that which you give to them.
There are however a few edicts in Christian mythology that do not have their basis in social control. The one that I like is "Do unto others as you would have them do unto you" now THAT"S a human concept.
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i do agree that human life is very precious and should never be taken!!
but someone who Molests children or murders(for no reason)or rapes, should be taken out, plain and simple.
life is the most precious gift we have been given, and when you do the three things mentioned above you lay your life out you are no longer human in my eyes you are a demon, or the son of satan.
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but someone who Molests children or murders(for no reason)or rapes, should be taken out, plain and simple.
Sometimes different punishments would be better though. For rapests maybe a casteration with no drugs and use rusty knives or a big hammer. I believe that sometimes a punishment of death is to easy (chemical) and maybe an incentitive like pain beyond belief would more suffice. :aok It sure would curb some of the problem we are having. :aok
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Sometimes different punishments would be better though. For rapests maybe a casteration with no drugs and use rusty knives or a big hammer. I believe that sometimes a punishment of death is to easy (chemical) and maybe an incentitive like pain beyond belief would more suffice. :aok It sure would curb some of the problem we are having. :aok
Castration with a big hammer... now THERE is a punishment worse than death.
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what if killers were just grim reapers that were sent by god to kill random people, its just lodged in there brain but they dont know. they just want to kill for some odd reason. if we didnt have killers or catastrophies then the world would be over populated. isnt is strange to any 1 else how after 20,000 years are world still isnt over populated. its because it all works in 1 big conjunction a cycle everything moves in a cylcle. to me the universe seeeeems soooooooooooooo complicated if you think about it in the big picture. just think about math and science and how it goes sooo deep. there is so much CRAP in the universe with 40 trillion stars how could only 1 man do so much. think about how small we are. what about bugs and animals, there arnt any better then us if you want to put us in a big picture with everything. where do they go when they die???? i think darwin had the best understanding of the earth. because it reality it is servival of the fittest. smarter lives longer. but in the big picture of everything a human in a cell we are tiny tiny tiny little things. so why would god care more about us then anything else in the whole damn universe????
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Sometimes different punishments would be better though. For rapests maybe a casteration with no drugs and use rusty knives or a big hammer. I believe that sometimes a punishment of death is to easy (chemical) and maybe an incentitive like pain beyond belief would more suffice. :aok It sure would curb some of the problem we are having. :aok
Not saying you're wrong here....
BUT I have to ask.......
what about FALSE accusations of the above!
YOU KNOW such things happen!
Reports constantly occur of wives accusing their ex- of MANY things that later prove UNTRUE but they did so because their attorney advised it for a better result in court!
Child abuse charges get hurled around like leaflets at rallies.......
Then there are ladies of the night that sometimes get angry and make charges that....
Don't know about you but I would sure hate to punish someone for a doing the above and then find out later the accuser LIED!
Would you care to be on the receiving end of such?
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Not saying you're wrong here....
BUT I have to ask.......
what about FALSE accusations of the above!
YOU KNOW such things happen!
Reports constantly occur of wives accusing their ex- of MANY things that later prove UNTRUE but they did so because their attorney advised it for a better result in court!
Child abuse charges get hurled around like leaflets at rallies.......
Then there are ladies of the night that sometimes get angry and make charges that....
Don't know about you but I would sure hate to punish someone for a doing the above and then find out later the accuser LIED!
Would you care to be on the receiving end of such?
I agree Wrag. I would hope a punishment like this would not happen to a first time offender. But as Ink pointed out, serial rapests, and the like need ought be delt with. This is the same problem that is run into with the death penalty. :salute
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back than (almost 3000 years ago) people thought the world was flat, how did this man know the world was circular ? he God and when you know God you know the truth.
it reads different in each bible that ive checked out, but it all says the same thing. the world is round.
That's true, most Christians still thought the earth was flat back then. They hadn't yet reached the same conclusions that some (many?) of the Native Americans had...
Some of the "heathen" groups in Europe are also believed to have reached the "round earth" conclusion quite early as well. Thier attention to the stars, planets, and moon helped them reach that conclusion.
Galileo- how did he fall from favor in the eyes of the church (and end up imprisoned?)? Wasn't it by claiming the earth was round, and that it orbited the sun, rather than the other way around? Why were Christians so reluctant to accept the "round earth" theories, especially if the bible told them the earth was round?
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i do agree that human life is very precious and should never be taken!!
but someone who Molests children or murders(for no reason)or rapes, should be taken out, plain and simple.
life is the most precious gift we have been given, and when you do the three things mentioned above you lay your life out you are no longer human in my eyes you are a demon, or the son of satan.
They'll meet their maker in due time. I'm not on this Earth to judge a single person, every human is unfit for the role. This is my opinion though.
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They'll meet their maker in due time. I'm not on this Earth to judge a single person, every human is unfit for the role. This is my opinion though.
:aok :aok :aok :aok I can't throw a stone either.........
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That's true, most Christians still thought the earth was flat back then. They hadn't yet reached the same conclusions that some (many?) of the Native Americans had...
Some of the "heathen" groups in Europe are also believed to have reached the "round earth" conclusion quite early as well. Thier attention to the stars, planets, and moon helped them reach that conclusion.
Galileo- how did he fall from favor in the eyes of the church (and end up imprisoned?)? Wasn't it by claiming the earth was round, and that it orbited the sun, rather than the other way around? Why were Christians so reluctant to accept the "round earth" theories, especially if the bible told them the earth was round?
In Galileo's time, the roundness wasn't really the issue -- it was whether the earth revolved around the sun, or the reverse. The trouble was that the organized bureacracy of the church had thrown its lot in with Aristotle's view of science, and had found some Biblical quotations to back Aristotle up. On the other hand, Augustine (a "church father" who lived hundreds of years before) felt that the passages in question were best viewed as poetic imagery, especially since they were in songs (recorded as psalms). The Pope's official position was that the favored doctrine should not be discarded without solid objective proof to the contrary, but Galileo was felt to have ignored that restriction and pushed his views before the proof was in hand.
But that story is just an example of a bigger issue. The absolutely central, core essence of Christianity is that people start out flawed and selfish -- but through Jesus' sacrifice they can be both forgiven, and gradually regenerated into something new and different. That means guaranteed people who call themselves followers of Christ are going to be messed up to one degree or another -- we're all going to be in the process of growing more like the one we follow. I believe when it says we are made "in his image" that includes the ability to freely choose, even though it hurts him to see us ignore his way of life. And so -- there WILL be times we're a bit embarrassing to the boss!
What's absolutely unbelievable is that He loves us at all, given how we Christians behave...individually and collectively.
That's what we call Grace -- the totally unwarranted, undeserved, overwhelmingly incomprehensible love and forgiveness of God through what Jesus did. Unfortunately its way too easy for followers to get stalled out in their growth, to become comfortable and self satisfied. And that stalling out is what gives Christianity (the structured religion) a bad name that Christianity (the actual "Way" of following Jesus' footsteps day by day) doesn't deserve.
History...the news...and our neighborhoods!...are full of people who call themselves Christians but who show self righteousness, arrogance, hatred, and bigotry that have absolutely nothing to do with Jesus. Galileo's case falls under that umbrella, IMHO.
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very well written Simaril
:salute
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Well that explains why some people can be complete prettythangholes and $crew everybody they come in contact with. They can go to church say some hail mary's and be saved just to go out the next week and do it all over again. :rofl
Every time I hear God bless I watch my prettythang
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Simaril,
From what you say, it sounds like the church back then hadn't thought things through enough. Science and Religion have no overlap. They didn't need to hear any sort of approval/disapproval from anyone scientific or theistic. Their clinging to one empirical fact or theory of any sort was a mistake. Their punishment of Galileo for his arguing a purely empirical stance was out of line.
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Well that explains why some people can be complete uncleholes and $crew everybody they come in contact with. They can go to church say some hail mary's and be saved just to go out the next week and do it all over again. :rofl
Every time I hear God bless I watch my uncle
It's funny you should say that.
When I was a member of our church council what really blew me away was the level of hipocracy I saw amongst the congregation as a whole. The place was rife with it.
I've also seen many fair weather Christians who pick and choose their adherence to their faith. It's surprising how many "good Christians" you see in front of a Judge that quickly change their tune as soon as the walk out of the doors.
At least the non believers stand by their convictions.
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There's no doubt that what you guys have seen is way too common. But I'd suggest that it may not be to the point of what Christianity is about.
There are plenty of fakes in church. First, there are people whose religion is just a tradition, with nothing personal in it. Then there are those who use church as another field to conquer, who are focused on power and prestige. (These are the ones who are perfectly happy to see a church split over picking the "wrong" pastor or carpet or whatever.) Can't forget the con men in polyester suits, either -- guys like Elmer Gantry (old movie) who happen to have found a fertile field of suckers among the pews.
In my opinion, these people have very little to do with Christianity. They "represent" the faith the same way the Oklahoma City bombers represent the American values they claimed. In essence, it's not fair to judge a belief system by looking at people who don't follow it -- no matter what they SAY they do.
And don't forget...God is not exactly stupid. Just for the sake of argument, imagine that the God of Christianity is real. Would an all powerful, all knowing God be fooled by things WE can see through? Seems pretty unlikely. And look at what Jesus had to say about the hyper religious hypocrites of his day: "They are like whitewashed tombs, beautiful on the inside but inside filled with putrid corruption." Elsewhere he said that at the end of time there would be many people who said in essence "We preached your name, we even did miracles for you!" and Jesus will say "Get out, I never even knew you." He doesn't put up with "calling it in" either -- using food as an illustration, he said "I wish you were either hot or cold. But since you're just lukewarm, I'm going to spit you out of my mouth."
If we look at what Jesus taught, it's clear he's no weak kneed Mr Rogers clone. He's every bit as disgusted by hypocrisy as you guys are, and in fact the hardest words in the bible are spoken about religious hypocrites -- maybe because he knew just how much damage they do to real people.
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It's funny you should say that.
When I was a member of our church council what really blew me away was the level of hipocracy I saw amongst the congregation as a whole. The place was rife with it.
I've also seen many fair weather Christians who pick and choose their adherence to their faith. It's surprising how many "good Christians" you see in front of a Judge that quickly change their tune as soon as the walk out of the doors.
At least the non believers stand by their convictions.
Hmmm.......
Your dealing with people here.
I have found that people have the ability to become the most obnoxious, wrong headed, power hungry, control others, stupid, AHOLES ever created..............
How does that go? Beware of stupid people in large numbers?
And then there is the one about anytime you get together large numbers of people they usually all get stupid?
Ya some of the WORST <--(my personal opinion here) people I have ever meant I meant in such a place.
Just because some people get together and say they're a church and they're Christians does NOT make it so.............
What is a "good Christian"? Is it someone that everyone else says.....
Not IMHO!
Only YOU <--(and that should be questionable in your own mind!) and the Big Guy KNOWS who really is and isn't!
BUT there is a way to get a pretty good idea of who is and who isn't a good........... WHATEVER! (Christian, Buddhist, Hindu, Brahman, etc....)
You shall KNOW the tree by it's fruit!
Actions speak louder then words?
If you're gonna talk the talk then ya best walk the walk?
There are Christians that take scripture, usually 1 verse, and go wild with it. Take it to places it was NEVER intended to go, so to speak.
Sadly these type frequently don't have a real grasp on what the Book actually says or is saying IMHO..............
Sadly this reflects on ALL..........
IMHO stepping away from something because of the hypocrites is counter productive, and only gives the hypocrites more power to be what they are............
This tends to be true about almost everything not just religion IMHO.