Aces High Bulletin Board
General Forums => Wishlist => Topic started by: JunkyII on August 08, 2008, 08:57:42 AM
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I know alot of people keep saying perk the LA7 but in fact not alot of people know how to fly it well. The Spit 16 is easymode of easymode. Its faster then a F4U1c on the deck, its gun package includes hispanos, and it spins circles around most every fighter in the game. What Im getting at is that the Spit 16 should be perked. :aok
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Perk it because you consider it easy to fly? Nah. Need more substance than that my Pig brother.
:salute
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Perk it because you consider it easy to fly? Nah. Need more substance than that my Pig brother.
:salute
Has a heavier armament, turns better, climbs better, and is faster than most planes in the arena, and it is extremely easy to fly. More grounds to perk it than the Spitfire MkXIV certainly.
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Lower the perk on the 14 by 10, maybe as much as the old 152? Make the 16 the 14's price.
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Has a heavier armament, turns better, climbs better, and is faster than most planes in the arena, and it is extremely easy to fly. More grounds to perk it than the Spitfire MkXIV certainly.
Don't forget acceleration.
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I do agree that a light perk of maybe 5 should be put on the 16. I do think that most people over rate it though. Lets say that the F6F represents the average plane in Aces High. Without WEP the F6F is actually faster, although the 16 will out accelerate the F6. Turn rate. The spit16's turn rate isn't as good as many think. An F6 can easily out turn it in a luff and even though the 16 has a better climb rate, I would say that the F6 has an advantage in a vertical fight due to the 16's low mass, instability and torque. Range: F6 firepower: F6 damage: F6 Ords: F6
AKRaVeN <S>
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You are far underestimating the Spit 16. It turns tighter and is much faster than the F6F at all altitudes.
I have never experienced 'instability' in the Spitfire. Thing's solid as a rock.
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I'm opposed to perking any aircraft that doesn't unbalance the game.
<S>
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Don't forget acceleration.
And roll rate...
Just took out a Spitfire MkXVI for the first time in forever... 4 kills no effort...
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And yet it somehow doesn't dominate the monthly kill totals.
Methinks your Spitfire loathing is showing.
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And yet it somehow doesn't dominate the monthly kill totals.
Methinks your Spitfire loathing is showing.
Quoted for truth.
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It turns tighter than...the F6F at all altitudes.
I have my doubts about that, but I suppose I could just be deceived because of the inexperience of most Spit16 sticks...
At any rate... Let's consider something here... Let's assume we all like this game, and want it to continue. If we want that to happen, we need to have a constant influx of new players that remain in the game. To have that happen, we need to give the new players some sort of chance, so they don't get incredibly frustrated and quit. The Spit16 fits that bill nicely.
I don't understand the whole "perk it because new guys can do ok in it" argument. Give them a chance, already... They aren't hard to kill.
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I have my doubts about that, but I suppose I could just be deceived because of the inexperience of most Spit16 sticks...
At any rate... Let's consider something here... Let's assume we all like this game, and want it to continue. If we want that to happen, we need to have a constant influx of new players that remain in the game. To have that happen, we need to give the new players some sort of chance, so they don't get incredibly frustrated and quit. The Spit16 fits that bill nicely.
I don't understand the whole "perk it because new guys can do ok in it" argument. Give them a chance, already... They aren't hard to kill.
:aok :aok :aok :aok :aok :aok :aok :aok
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I have my doubts about that, but I suppose I could just be deceived because of the inexperience of most Spit16 sticks...
At any rate... Let's consider something here... Let's assume we all like this game, and want it to continue. If we want that to happen, we need to have a constant influx of new players that remain in the game. To have that happen, we need to give the new players some sort of chance, so they don't get incredibly frustrated and quit. The Spit16 fits that bill nicely.
I don't understand the whole "perk it because new guys can do ok in it" argument. Give them a chance, already... They aren't hard to kill.
When i first started playing the game (3 years ago) my 1 and only plane for 3-4 tours was the 190 A-8. Only fly German to this day and im still here.
I think what im trying to say is that if people are interested in the game and the experience enough then they dont need some crazy uber ride, they can learn with anything.
My .02
:salute
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When i first started playing the game (3 years ago) my 1 and only plane for 3-4 tours was the 190 A-8. Only fly German to this day and im still here.
I think what im trying to say is that if people are interested in the game and the experience enough then they dont need some crazy uber ride, they can learn with anything.
Fair enough.
If people are interested in the game and the experience enough, they can also learn how to deal with Spit16's :aok
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Valid point.
But then whose to say if people are that interested then why cant we unperk the 262 or tempest?
:salute
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Valid point.
But then whose to say if people are that interested then why cant we unperk the 262 or tempest?
:salute
Two-part short answer? Because you don't die in those planes unless you want to, and variety is a good thing :)
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OK forget the XVI tag.
Performance wise it is a 1943 LF IX, only differences -
1) 50 cals instead of LF IX .303s (majority of kills with the Hispanos anyway)
2) Motor manufactured in the US (Merlin 266) instead of UK (Merlin 66)
If you perk the XVI theres plenty others that should be perked also.
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Spixteens have very fragile wings... one ping and they're gone.
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Has a heavier armament, turns better, climbs better, and is faster than most planes in the arena, and it is extremely easy to fly. More grounds to perk it than the Spitfire MkXIV certainly.
The La7 isn't flown correctly enough to say "it's easy to fly." 95% of the time they haven't a clue of it's capabilities. If the fuel range was increased then I'd say sure, Perk it. But that is part of the challenge currently, fighting but making damn sure you watch the state of your fuel. More so than many cartoon planes we have to choose from.
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is faster than most planes in the arena, and it is extremely easy to fly. More grounds to perk it than the Spitfire MkXIV certainly.
I don't know where the Spit16 stands in absolute rank in top speed, but most all late-war planes that can't dogfight the Spit16 on more or less equal terms have a speed advantage over it, and thus can engage and disengage at will. This is a different situation than with say, the La7, which is why I would argue that the La7 needs a light perk price while with the Spixteen, well, let's just say I'm not sure. One must also consider the that the Spit8 has almost the same performance as the 16...
Most all arguments for unperking the Spit14 involve comparing it to the Spit16, and end up being really good arguemen ts for perking the 16. :lol
But seriously, most everybody will state something to the effect "The Spit16 can out-dogfight the Spit14 in a duel at typical MA alts." However, you could use the same argument for the Tempest, a Spit16 is a better dueller, therefore the Tempest should be unperked. But there are other factors, now aren't there?
The MA is not about duelling. The Spit14 does not HAVE to be able to out-dogfight the 16, it can engage and disengage from it at will. The Spit14 has a deck speed of 361 mph. This is a scant 7 mph less than the P-51D. And this only improves as you get higher. With its combination of turn, climb, AND speed, unperked Spit14 would totally outclass the other LW high-speed E fighters (P-51s, Jugs, 190s, 109Gs and K, etc) in the MA and render many of them as obsolete at medium-high alts as the La7 has at low alts, only worse. The La7 faces range restrictions the 14 doesn't, and the deadlier pilots just don't seem to fly La7s very often.
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The La7 isn't flown correctly enough to say "it's easy to fly." 95% of the time they haven't a clue of it's capabilities. If the fuel range was increased then I'd say sure, Perk it. But that is part of the challenge currently, fighting but making damn sure you watch the state of your fuel. More so than many cartoon planes we have to choose from.
Wasn't talking about the La7, I was talking about the Spitfire MkXVI. I agree with you 100% on the La7.
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I don't know where the Spit16 stands in absolute rank in top speed, but most all late-war planes that can't dogfight the Spit16 on more or less equal terms have a speed advantage over it, and thus can engage and disengage at will. This is a different situation than with say, the La7, which is why I would argue that the La7 needs a light perk price while with the Spixteen, well, let's just say I'm not sure. One must also consider the that the Spit8 has almost the same performance as the 16...
Most all arguments for unperking the Spit14 involve comparing it to the Spit16, and end up being really good arguemen ts for perking the 16. :lol
But seriously, most everybody will state something to the effect "The Spit16 can out-dogfight the Spit14 in a duel at typical MA alts." However, you could use the same argument for the Tempest, a Spit16 is a better dueller, therefore the Tempest should be unperked. But there are other factors, now aren't there?
The MA is not about duelling. The Spit14 does not HAVE to be able to out-dogfight the 16, it can engage and disengage from it at will. The Spit14 has a deck speed of 361 mph. This is a scant 7 mph less than the P-51D. And this only improves as you get higher. With its combination of turn, climb, AND speed, unperked Spit14 would totally outclass the other LW high-speed E fighters (P-51s, Jugs, 190s, 109Gs and K, etc) in the MA and render many of them as obsolete at medium-high alts as the La7 has at low alts, only worse. The La7 faces range restrictions the 14 doesn't, and the deadlier pilots just don't seem to fly La7s very often.
You're REALLY overestimating the Spitfire MkXIV.
The only thing the 14 has over the 16 at MA altitudes, if you define this is the deck to 20k, is speed. And even at that, the 14 is 10-20mph faster from 0-20k. Even in climb, there's only a brief window from 8-10k where the 14 actually out climbs the 16, and from 12-18k the 16 actually outclimbs the 14. At other altitudes the climb rate is pretty much equal.
Furthermore, it does not 'totally outclass' other LW fighters. It is neck & neck with the P51D and P47N, and slower than the 109K and 190D until high altitudes. Comparing it to the 109K specifically, the only non-Spitfire really similar to the 14, The 109K and the 14 are almost equal at all altitudes beside a stretch from 12-20k where the 109K beats the 14 by almost 1000 FPM. The 14 accelerates slightly faster and turns slightly better than the 109K, however, it has that huge prop that makes the aircraft fairly hard to handle.
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Spit XIV is a 109K4 with 2 20mms and 2 .50s. :rock :rock
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It totally outclasses CERTAIN other LW planes, not all of them, but enough that I think it needs to retain a perk As is typical, you are arguing for the Spit14 to be unperked by comparing it to a Spit16. To me you are making a far better argument for perking the Spit16 than for UN-perking the 14.
The Spit14 DOES totally outclass the such planes as the Pony, Jug, and 190* in all respects except speed low alt speed. It can catch all of them easily with some alt to convert into speed, and then out-turn, outclimb, and out-accelerate them.
*(BTW, the 190 is not really a 375mph fighter on the deck most of the time...because its fuel-hungry engine generally calls for a drop-tank. The center line rack slows the top deck speed down to 369.)
As for the 109K, it IS the most competitive vs. the Spit14, although I think the Spit will still win a "duel" given equal pilots. If the Kurt did not have such bad views, hard to use gun, and dive limitations, I would say it also needs to be perked, these weaknesses justify its unperked status IMO. The Spit14, along with its excellent speed/turn ratio, has one of the best gun packages, good visibility, and can pull out of a high-speed dive without elevator compression.
You're REALLY overestimating the Spitfire MkXIV.
The only thing the 14 has over the 16 at MA altitudes, if you define this is the deck to 20k, is speed. And even at that, the 14 is 10-20mph faster from 0-20k. Even in climb, there's only a brief window from 8-10k where the 14 actually out climbs the 16, and from 12-18k the 16 actually outclimbs the 14. At other altitudes the climb rate is pretty much equal.
Furthermore, it does not 'totally outclass' other LW fighters. It is neck & neck with the P51D and P47N, and slower than the 109K and 190D until high altitudes. Comparing it to the 109K specifically, the only non-Spitfire really similar to the 14, The 109K and the 14 are almost equal at all altitudes beside a stretch from 12-20k where the 109K beats the 14 by almost 1000 FPM. The 14 accelerates slightly faster and turns slightly better than the 109K, however, it has that huge prop that makes the aircraft fairly hard to handle.
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Most all arguments for unperking the Spit14 involve comparing it to the Spit16, and end up being really good arguemen ts for perking the 16. :lol
All of my arguments to unperk the Spitfire Mk XIV had to do with it's lack of use and lack of success compared to every other perk plane, and lack of success compared to some free planes (the Spitfire Mk XVI was not one of them) so saying most of the arguments for unperking it are based on the Mk XVI is flat out wrong.
Some people keep posting that, but the same argument repeated multiple times is still just one argument.
EDIT:
BnZ,
Go use the Mk XIV some and come back. You talk as someone who thinks they know how it handles and you really don't.
If the Fw190D-9 isn't really a 375mph fighter because of a thirsty engine, then the Mk XIV which guzzles even faster can't be considered a 358mph fighter.
The F4U-1A is slightly faster and turns better than the Mk XIV. The Bf109K-4 is very close in turning, has twice the WEP and is much easier to handle at low speeds. The La-7 is much faster, turns as well and has good visibility. The P-51D is faster and has better visibility. All of them are significantly tougher than the Spitfire as, so far as I can tell, Spitfires are the most fragile aircraft in the game wingwise.
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And roll rate...
Just took out a Spitfire MkXVI for the first time in forever... 4 kills no effort...
Thought of another one. When you pull back left and rudder left that non-realistic(witch i might add would kill the pilot because of the positive and negative "G"'s that are being pulled) spin people do to get you off there six.
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Aerobatic pilots do snap rolls all the time.
I read somewhere an account of a pilot using such a manoeuvre to edvade a German fighter in WWII. He blacked out but he survived.
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Aerobatic pilots do snap rolls all the time.
I read somewhere an account of a pilot using such a manoeuvre to edvade a German fighter in WWII. He blacked out but he survived.
I know what a snap roll is. And what people do in the spit16's dose not look like a snap roll to me, it could be possibly.
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All of my arguments to unperk the Spitfire Mk XIV had to do with it's lack of use and lack of success compared to every other perk plane, and lack of success compared to some free planes (the Spitfire Mk XVI was not one of them) so saying most of the arguments for unperking it are based on the Mk XVI is flat out wrong.
Some people keep posting that, but the same argument repeated multiple times is still just one argument.
Karnak,
Correct, that is the other argument, but comparisons to the Spixteen are always made as well.
Whether people favor an airplane or use it well is irrelevant. The airplane's potential is the point. By standard of popularity, the P-51 should command a perk price and the Ki-84 should have eny of 25 or so.
I suspect a good deal of the problem with the Spit14's K/D ratio is that is likely the perk plane most likely to be chosen by the inexperienced and then flown like all other spits. And since it is NOT all other Spits, that ends badly.
BnZ,
If the Fw190D-9 isn't really a 375mph fighter because of a thirsty engine, then the Mk XIV which guzzles even faster can't be considered a 358mph fighter.
My point was that the center rack on the 190 slows it down to Pony-type speed even after the tank is jettisoned. Does the Spit14 experience a similar slowdown even after the slipper tank is jettisoned?
The F4U-1A is slightly faster and turns better than the Mk XIV. The Bf109K-4 is very close in turning, has twice the WEP and is much easier to handle at low speeds. The La-7 is much faster, turns as well and has good visibility. The P-51D is faster and has better visibility. All of them are significantly tougher than the Spitfire as, so far as I can tell, Spitfires are the most fragile aircraft in the game wingwise.
So the F4U-1A is faster than a Spit14 running on WEP? And I assume you mean on the deck, not at slightly higher alts.
Good argument for perking the La-7! Sir, I agree and salute you.
Although I will point out the La has tragic range, worse guns, an elevator that gets stiff in the 400s, and its performance only gets worse with alt.
I have flown the Spit14 only a little in duels. I do not believe it handles worse than the K4, but I will do further testing.
The P-51D is absolutely outclassed by the Spit14. It can run away low, if the Spit14 doesn't have an E advantage to close the distance with, that is about it. And hordes of unperked Spit14s in the MA would force P-51s, Jugs, P-38s, etc, down out of the slightly higher alts where they are not as disadvantaged against the La7 and other monsters as they are down in the weeds.
<S>
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Thought of another one. When you pull back left and rudder left that non-realistic(witch i might add would kill the pilot because of the positive and negative "G"'s that are being pulled) spin people do to get you off there six.
OMFG i hate when people do that. :mad:
:salute
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Ohh yes and the fact that the spit16 can dive and stay with a plane no problem. Spit16 doing over 500 should have it's wing pop off.
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The P-51D is absolutely outclassed by the Spit14. It can run away low, if the Spit14 doesn't have an E advantage to close the distance with, that is about it. And hordes of unperked Spit14s in the MA would force P-51s, Jugs, P-38s, etc, down out of the slightly higher alts where they are not as disadvantaged against the La7 and other monsters as they are down in the weeds.
There wouldn't be hordes of Spit 14s. It is a very unfriendly aircraft to fly. In fact it is, by a good margin, the least pleasant aircraft to fly in AH that I can think of. It does not turn like a Spit and it does not stall like a Spit. If the Spit 14 were unperked and it was flown in masses then it could simply be reperked.
Personally, I bet it would do to the Spitfire Mk XVI's usage exactly what the Ta152H-1 did to the Fw190D-9's usage.
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Ohh yes and the fact that the spit16 can dive and stay with a plane no problem. Spit16 doing over 500 should have it's wing pop off.
Why? Spitfires dived past 500mph on numerous occasions. In fact, the Spitfire wing was probably the best high speed wing of any fighter in WWII, including the Me262, Me163, He162 and Meteor.
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Why? Spitfires dived past 500mph on numerous occasions. In fact, the Spitfire wing was probably the best high speed wing of any fighter in WWII, including the Me262, Me163, He162 and Meteor.
i see. I just figured there so easy to pop off with a few hits that doing 500 would easily rip them off.
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i see. I just figured there so easy to pop off with a few hits that doing 500 would easily rip them off.
Personally I think AH has them too fragile to enemy fire. I've never heard that Spit wings were particularly fragile to enemy fire.
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It is a very unfriendly aircraft to fly. In fact it is, by a good margin, the least pleasant aircraft to fly in AH that I can think of. It does not turn like a Spit and it does not stall like a Spit.
Least pleasant aircraft? What about the 190s, especially the 152? What about the Tempest with its massive torque, higher wing-loading, and less effective ailerons? I HAVE flown the thing occasionally, and I see it being little or no worse than the other aircraft with a lot of engine stuck in a little airframe. (Except the La-7...the Lala's torque has always seemed unrealistically tame to me for such a big engine in such a small airframe.)
Yes, it IS not like the other Spits. That is IMHO what causes many players to come to it with the wrong idea. If it were not a "Spit", if it were an aircraft with the same attributes but instead an "ME-309", I can bet we wouldn't be having this discussion. I'm thinking skilled Kraut ride enthusiasts would have a totally different set of expectations and improve the thing's K/D ratio.
The Ta-152 is a bad comparison. It does not have impressive performance at any altitude you can realistically expect to encounter in the MA and turns like its 190 stablemates. I don't know why the thing was ever perked in the first place.
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None of those aircraft fight me constantly.
As to controls, you keep forgetting how stiff Spitfire ailerons become at speed, and coupled with the Mk XIV's torque it becomes very hard to maneuver.
And I don't TnB in it like it is a Zero. I am not some rank n00b who doesn't understand how to use the things.
Trust me on this, it would never, ever replace the Mk XVI for players who like the XVI's style.
(And it is quite annoying that the Roman numerals for 14 and 16 are so similar)
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perk the Spit 16,LA7,P51D and drop the ENY on 190s :noid
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Perk the perk threads! :rock
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My first plane after one day of the spixteen was the 38 and then I flew a dora but with that I tried to dogfight but lost evertime and now im in the 109K-4 and doing pretty good. Im still hear even when I started with two of the harder to master planes in the game.
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My first plane after one day of the spixteen . Im still hear even when I started with two of the harder to master planes in the game.
:huh :huh :huh
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None of those aircraft fight me constantly.
And I don't TnB in it like it is a Zero. I am not some rank n00b who doesn't understand how to use the things.
(And it is quite annoying that the Roman numerals for 14 and 16 are so similar)
I understand that Sir, and I bet the thing is more effective in your hands than you are making out.
I flew the Spit XIV (yes, I CAN read and write Roman numerals...when I think about it for a minute :) ) a bit last night. You are right, it is not exactly a steady gun platform (the backwards torque could be part of my problem though). But still, its nowhere near as bad as the Ta-152 with all that adverse yaw. A Dora is a very steady gun platform yes, but then again the Spit14 doesn't stall and drop a wing when you try to pull a high rate of turn below 300mph IAS. I find it about the same as the K-4 in lack of ability to roll against torque in high-power/low speed situations. The high-speed aileron problems are par for the course with any non-clipped Spit, and I did not find it especially bad, and at least you can pull out of a screaming dive without resorting to trim.
I'd agree that maybe the squirrelieness of the flight model perhaps needs to looked at by HTC, perhaps the perk price needs to be lowered, but I still don't see totally unperking the thing.
<S>
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I do agree that a light perk of maybe 5 should be put on the 16. I do think that most people over rate it though. Lets say that the F6F represents the average plane in Aces High. Without WEP the F6F is actually faster, although the 16 will out accelerate the F6. Turn rate. The spit16's turn rate isn't as good as many think. An F6 can easily out turn it in a luff and even though the 16 has a better climb rate, I would say that the F6 has an advantage in a vertical fight due to the 16's low mass, instability and torque. Range: F6 firepower: F6 damage: F6 Ords: F6
AKRaVeN <S>
Akraven is a beast in the f6f :salute
i once ran his one winged f6f down with my fully armed la7.
i quickly ran out of bullets trying to shoot him down. the thing lasted about 10 minutes, very frustrating. he survived.
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Don't forget acceleration.
Don't forget the incredably high ammount of them in the arenas... imo... it throws off plane balance a bit...
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Don't forget the incredably high ammount of them in the arenas... imo... it throws off plane balance a bit...
Number isn't as high as usually believed, and far away from "throwing off plane balance".
And perk Spit 16 and increase N1K & Spit8 usage by the same amount.
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all 5 ENY planes plus the 51 should be perked
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Number isn't as high as usually believed, and far away from "throwing off plane balance".
And perk Spit 16 and increase N1K & Spit8 usage by the same amount.
Well yeah, you would practically have to perk the 8 if you perked the 16, almost the same performance. And I don't know how I feel about leaving the Brit fans with the mid-war 9 as their only unperked Spit in the LW MA.
N1K though is below Spit8/16, with all their climb and acceleration. Most of the fighters that turn worse than the Spixteen and need to E fight also can't beat in terms of E-building.
The N1K OTOH, I believe if it didn't have four cannons, it would be eny 10-15. Dangerous plane anytime it can get its guns pointed at you, yes, but average climber, not fast, not the absolute tops in turning, poor roller, limited in dives, and probably more fragile than the Spit.
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all 5 ENY planes plus the 51 should be perked
Don't let Steve see that :)
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I think the whole eny value on planes needs to be looked at and revised. Since some planes have been remodeled/ added, some eny's on planes don't justify anymore.
As fa as the spit 16 is concerned, I have no trouble killing them in my hog, even in 2:1 odds in a TnB fight. Only issue I have with them is the amount of them being flown. Yes they don't have a great kill/death ratio but that is because noobs fly them and use it like its air quake. Point, shoot die mentality instead of using ACM and taking the challenge to actually earn a kill. When people say the spit 16 is not fast, they are correct and p51's, d9's and lala's can disengage at will, that is not true. The spit 16 accelerates to its topspeed alot faster then a p51 and d9's. Lala's are the only planes that can disengage at will because of its quick acceleration also. Tempest too but I don't count perk planes. A light perk to balance the plane set some (like perk value of 5) I think would not be much of a issue and will balance its use some. They perked the f4u-1c because it unbalanced the game. Now the spit 16 took that place.
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They perked the f4u-1c because it unbalanced the game. Now the spit 16 took that place.
I wasn't around before the C-Hog was perked, but I have to assume it unbalanced the game far greater than the Spit 16 currently does... Ord, speed, maneuverability, 4 cannons, can take off from CVs, can take a ton of damage... Why fly anything else?
I always imagined there were more C-Hogs flying around back then than Spit 16s today?
16's are usually easy kills, and when they aren't, they're as much fun to fly against as any other plane flown competently... I don't see the problem.
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They perked the f4u-1c because it unbalanced the game. Now the spit 16 took that place.
It didn't.
The F4U-C had a huge share of all kills, far ahead of the competition, while maintaining a K/D way above average.
The Spit 16 doesn't. It doesn't even come close to be a dominating factor in the LW MA's.
In 2007, Spit 16 had 6% of all planes kills&deaths, which put it on #2 after P51. But at the same time, it only had a very mediocre K/D of 1.09. It's in no way an unbalancing plane in LW.
All current perk planes have a K/D of way over 2.0, with the Spit XIV being the sole exception.
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The Spit 16 doesn't. It doesn't even come close to be a dominating factor in the LW MA's.
In 2007, Spit 16 had 6% of all planes kills&deaths, which put it on #2 after P51. But at the same time, it only had a very mediocre K/D of 1.09. It's in no way an unbalancing plane in LW.
I alrdy said that. Its the use of it that is almost = to the f4u-1c back in the day. Everywhere u fly now, there a 2:1 chance it a spit 16.
Yes they don't have a great kill/death ratio but that is because noobs fly them and use it like its air quake. Point, shoot die mentality instead of using ACM and taking the challenge to actually earn a kill.
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When people say the spit 16 is not fast, they are correct and p51's, d9's and lala's can disengage at will, that is not true. The spit 16 accelerates to its topspeed alot faster then a p51 and d9's.
Well, if one screws around with a Spixteen until it is d-400 on the P-51's six, granted he's unlikely to get out of that
But, a lone P-51 that keeps its E up could make at least a few passes at a large flight of a dozen spixteens and say bye-bye when necessary, as long as he keeps his wits about them. And who knows, with good gunnery and a Spit pilot doing predictable evasives, perhaps even bag one. Whereas a Spixteen is not going to escape a dogfight with a dozen well-piloted P-51s, and is going to have a difficult time getting a shot in unless someone looses patience and screws up.
Thus speed is shown to be perhaps the master advantage. I'm very unsure on the notion of perking any plane unless it is very aberrant along the speed/maneuver scale...you know the, the way most planes that are faster turn worse? Only planes that violate that tendency dramatically need to be perked IMHO. The only unperked plane that sticks out like a sore thumb according to this reasoning is the La-7.
<S>
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I alrdy said that. Its the use of it that is almost = to the f4u-1c back in the day. Everywhere u fly now, there a 2:1 chance it a spit 16.
Thats simply not true. Spit 16 doesn't even come close to having that kind of numbers F4UC had back in the day, and surely not any comparable impact.
2:1 chance would mean 66% of all planes are Spits 16's.
(http://img297.imageshack.us/img297/203/usageuu1.jpg)
Also keep in mind that due to the short legs of the 16, the actual number one encounters depends even on playing style.
As a primary base defender, I rarely encounter 16's at all...
As HTC stated, perks were introduced to regulate usage of otherwise unbalancing planes. Spit 16 isn't unbalancing.
And just perking the top used planes because they are the top used planes amoutns a bit to tellign other player what to fly "just because". And of course other planes would then replace them as "most used rides" and in the end a new player may find himself with a free P40B and 94 other perked rides ;)
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I dunno, as a pure fighter, I think the C-Hog might be a little behind the Spixteen. Uh, DokGonzo's comparison site isn't working for me. I know the C-Hog is decidedly inferior in climb and acceleration, and is the worst turning Hog. How does it stack up to the Spit in turn and deck speed?
If the C-Hog were upped constantly for base defense and by noobs, instead of being used for so much b'n'z and vulching by the experienced,its K/D might be a different story.
And careful guys, usage numbers/popularity is an imperfect argument for perkage. Example: P-51D usage, Ki-84 usage, N1K usage vrs. SpitVIII* usage, F4U-1A, etc. It doesn't always reflect a plane's potential.
*I mean come on, the thing basically has the powers of Spixteen and the flight time of a P-51D...whats going on here that it only sees 3% usage?*
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And careful guys, usage numbers/popularity is an imperfect argument for perkage. Example: P-51D usage, Ki-84 usage, N1K usage vrs. SpitVIII usage, F4U-1A, etc. It doesn't always reflect a plane's potential.
"Usage" combined with K/D is not the holy grail :D, but it can give you a good assesment of a fighters actual impact on gameplay. And that's what perking mostly is about.
(BTW, I would love to see a real number of sorties statistic)
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Is it me or does that chart show spit14 usage less than spit1? :rofl
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when i see a spit16 attacking my mosquito i pretty much consider it a free kill. unless Kazaa is flying then im dead, bastage.
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Is it me or does that chart show spit14 usage less than spit1? :rofl
For a larger part of the year, the score wasn't split between arenas.
But then, the Spit I isn't flown that much in EW too, so the numbers are currently just a tad better for Spit XiV:
Tour 103
Spit I 162 kills 575 deaths = 737 total
Spit XIV 436 kills 397 deaths = 833 total
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That's pretty close in terms of usage. Although i thought they were both low, i hadn't realised how so few kills they score. It would seem the MA population as a whole, rates the spit14 poorly.
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*I mean come on, the thing basically has the powers of Spixteen and the flight time of a P-51D...whats going on here that it only sees 3% usage?*
BNZ, Shhhhhhhh. Can we keep the 8 our little secret?
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That's pretty close in terms of usage. Although i thought they were both low, i hadn't realised how so few kills they score. It would seem the MA population as a whole, rates the spit14 poorly.
To be fair, it's in good companionship:
(http://www.freeimagehosting.net/uploads/534525d16b.jpg)
(current tour data Late War Arenas, 60 fighters total)
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Nothing about the XIV at normal MA alts that makes it remotely worth perking.
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Only thing I can say is, thank the good lord that some the top pilots (Agent360, mtnman, Adonia, Shawk ect.) in the game don't fly the thing, it would of been perked a long time ago.
And I know there are other good pilots out there,but these came to mind..... :salute
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Only thing I can say is, thank the good lord that some the top pilots (Agent360, mtnman, Adonia, Shawk ect.) in the game don't fly the thing, it would of been perked a long time ago.
And I know there are other good pilots out there,but these came to mind..... :salute
No one, or dozen, pilots in this game could have enough effect to get anything perked.
Stop exaggerating.
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No one, or dozen, pilots in this game could have enough effect to get anything perked.
Stop exaggerating.
guess i should of added the :rofl as it was just a comment I made in a joking manner
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Only thing I can say is, thank the good lord that some the top pilots (Agent360, mtnman, Adonia, Shawk ect.) in the game don't fly the thing, it would of been perked a long time ago.
And I know there are other good pilots out there,but these came to mind..... :salute
Shawk does fly the spit16... :noid
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Perk em all and subtract the value each time you lose one, give everyone 1500 perk points to start when the perks are gone so are all the UBER rides you are left flying the P-40, FM2, f4f, 109E, goons, etc same for GV's put perk points on all the GOOD stuff and when its lost you are down to the lesser stuff.
This will achieve the same results we now get, the best pilots having the best rides since perkies are rewarded for kills and results most of the good pilots have plenty of perks its only the new guys and poor pilots like me who never have any :D
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I kow that everyone of you are gonna say that it has a low K/D, but realy, who cares? We all know that noobs fly the plane, and its an exceptional airplane; far too good for noobs what I see. Think of this, you are flying something fast, lets say F4U1-D (my favorite) you all know it can out turn it, but you have the alt. A spixteen ups and as soon as it takes off it climbs up to you; its now up to your alt in less then 30 seconds. You cain't rope him, or your dead; and if your not a decent pilot, you cain't even come close to killing it. It can outmanuver most anything, zekes and hurris too, just because its that good.
oh and Bip, thats a rash statement, don't you think? *hint* TA-152
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We all know that noobs fly the plane, and its an exceptional airplane; far too good for noobs what I see.
Ahhh... That plane is too good for n00bs! I presume they should fly less exceptional planes to be even easier victims? Heaven forbid they try to fly in an "easy plane". Let them all fly P40s, and don't worry about their frustration. Perk it, so only pilots like me can fly it!
Rather funny... experienced pilots flying the 16 are lamers, and now the 16 is far too good for "noobs" too. Just a variation of the "You should fly what I tell you".
I kow that everyone of you are gonna say that it has a low K/D, but realy, who cares?
Yup, who cares for any reason? Perk it just because! ;)
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I agree with the suggestion that all eny values and perk prices need to be reevaluated. As things are now, eny values have little correspondence to aircraft performance and seem to have been assigned ad-hoc with a very broad brush.
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I agree with the suggestion that all why values and perk prices need to be reevaluated. As things are now, eny values have little correspondence to aircraft performance and seem to have been assigned ad-hoc with a very broad brush.
ENY values have been tweaked several times in the past. For example C205 was once at 40 ;)
The problem is you will never be able to find a completely objective way to compress plane performance/capability/dangerousness/whatever into a single ENY stat that everyone will agree with.
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Maybe they should try this, Any plane with a eny of 5 or maybe 10 or less be perked with lets say 5 perks besides those alrdy perked. That would cover alot of the uber rides, hehehehehe.
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ENY values have been tweaked several times in the past. For example C205 was once at 40 ;)
The problem is you will never be able to find a completely objective way to compress plane performance/capability/dangerousness/whatever into a single ENY stat that everyone will agree with.
True, but let's not fall into the perfectionist's trap of not trying. A less than perfect attempt at objective eny values would be an improvement over what we have now.
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True, but let's not fall into the perfectionist's trap of not trying. A less than perfect attempt at objective eny values would be an improvement over what we have now.
Feel free to propose new, better values :)
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Feel free to propose new, better values :)
Successfully recommend me for a free month's subscription and I'll do it. Otherwise it's HTC's job to implement rational eny values. :aok
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I have to agree that with the fact that 16's are uber divers and stay even with my jug in a 550 MPH dive :huh. I agree that the wings are tough, but the thing's light as a feather and should not be able to keep up with, much less catch a 7 ton jug in a dive.
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I have to agree that with the fact that 16's are uber divers and stay even with my jug in a 550 MPH dive :huh. I agree that the wings are tough, but the thing's light as a feather and should not be able to keep up with, much less catch a 7 ton jug in a dive.
The P-47 accelerated faster in a dive, but Spitfires reached higher speeds in a dive.
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Ahhh... That plane is too good for n00bs! I presume they should fly less exceptional planes to be even easier victims? Heaven forbid they try to fly in an "easy plane". Let them all fly P40s, and don't worry about their frustration. Perk it, so only pilots like me can fly it!
Rather funny... experienced pilots flying the 16 are lamers, and now the 16 is far too good for "noobs" too. Just a variation of the "You should fly what I tell you".
Yup, who cares for any reason? Perk it just because! ;)
ok so not perk it. The only reason why it has a low K/D is because of the noobs. when they kill you right off the deck in a climb, you might see what I'm talking about.
why would you argue this? for every bit it is one of the best fighters in the game. maybe we should unperk the F4U4 then, if you think that the spixteen shouldn't be perked. Maybe we should unperk the CHog; thats as good as the spixteen, got a good turn climb and guns. aww hell lets just unperk the Temp, just because you think that the spixteen shouldn't be perked. all of these planes are just as even as the spixteen, why are they perked?
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ok so not perk it. The only reason why it has a low K/D is because of the noobs. when they kill you right off the deck in a climb, you might see what I'm talking about.
why would you argue this?
Because perk was introduced to for balnes otherwise unbalancing the arena.
The Spit 16 has NO such effect on MA's in any way. It's eally that simple. Spit 16 are not as numerous as many people claim, not do they pose a rearkable above average threat. Of course is a good pilot a in a 16 a serious threat - but then you will also have to perk the 109K (can run from aything 8-25K, big cannon, best climber in game - the 16 can't run)
aww hell lets just unperk the Temp, just because you think that the spixteen shouldn't be perked. all of these planes are just as even as the spixteen, why are they perked?
You can't be serious... :rolleyes:
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You can't be serious... :rolleyes:
course I wasn't serious. Every time me or you attack a base, whats the first planes that you see? I usually see Nikis, spixteens, hurris and zekes. There is a lot of base attacking don't you think?
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course I wasn't serious. Every time me or you attack a base, whats the first planes that you see? I usually see Nikis, spixteens, hurris and zekes. There is a lot of base attacking don't you think?
So? What is your point? You want bases to be easier to attack? You'd rather see N1K2-Js, Spitfire Mk VIIIs, Hurricane Mk IICs and A6M5bs than N1K2-Js, Spitfire Mk XVIs, Hurricane Mk IICs and A6M5bs? You think the most popular free aircraft should all be perked? You think perking is silly? You are not being clear at all.
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Because perk was introduced to for balnes otherwise unbalancing the arena.
Are we just assuming that unbalancing the arena is the right criterion for perking an aircraft? Or does it actually stand up to scrutiny...
Clearly, if only 2-weekers flew the Tempest, it would not unbalance the arena. Then by the unbalancing the arena criterion, the Tempest would not be perked. Now, very few of us would accept this result, and so by following the unbalancing the arena criterion we have found ourselves in a contradiction, and therefore the criterion should be abandoned.
This seems to be the case with the Spitfire16, but in a less extreme way.
We found ourselves in this muddle because unbalancing the arena depends way too much on the quality of pilots who fly the aircraft.
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So? What is your point? You want bases to be easier to attack? You'd rather see N1K2-Js, Spitfire Mk VIIIs, Hurricane Mk IICs and A6M5bs than N1K2-Js, Spitfire Mk XVIs, Hurricane Mk IICs and A6M5bs? You think the most popular free aircraft should all be perked? You think perking is silly? You are not being clear at all.
what I'm sayin is, its just WAY to uber to fly against. I'm more afriad of a spixteen, then a Hurri, zeke, or niki, just because I know what it can do.
It climbs like a rocket, and has some of the best guns in the game. it out turns zekes, and with skill, hurris just as easy. it has one of the best accelerations in the game.
All of that is redundant, but thats what it is, is what it is.
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what I'm sayin is, its just WAY to uber to fly against. I'm more afriad of a spixteen, then a Hurri, zeke, or niki, just because I know what it can do.
It climbs like a rocket, and has some of the best guns in the game. it out turns zekes, and with skill, hurris just as easy. it has one of the best accelerations in the game.
All of that is redundant, but thats what it is, is what it is.
It doesn't come close to matching the climb of the Me163. It cannot turn with any A6M or any Hurricane. Its flat out top speed on the deck is about 345mph, fast but by no means staggering. You're afraid of it because you've made it a bogeyman in your mind and are losing fights with it before the first maneuver.
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It doesn't come close to matching the climb of the Me163.
:huh :confused: :rofl
You lose this argument by default for comparing the spit16 to the 163. :P
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Read what karnak has quoted "it climbs like a rocket", the m163 is a rocket plane of course. ;)
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I wondered how long it would be before the "game balancing thing" would be brought up. If I remember correctly perking or the idea of perking came after the Chog was introduced and a bunch of the guys cried that it was unbalancing the game.
My problem with perks and perking it that it has the opposite effect of game balancing (if that was the purpose) because the guys with most perks are of course the better pilots so now you have the best pilots flying the best planes......... hardly what I would call game balance.
Eny on the other hand is a good method to "balance" the game (although I scream everytime it is applied to me) :cry
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:huh :confused: :rofl
You lose this argument by default for comparing the spit16 to the 163. :P
I'm not the one who compared it to a rocket. I stated that it factually is not comparable to a rocket.
You lose.
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because the guys with most perks are of course the better pilots so now you have the best pilots flying the best planes
Interesting point, and one that I had similiar thoughts on Box. Balancing/unbalancing? I'm not sure, but definitely some truth involved.
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I'm not the one who compared it to a rocket. I stated that it factually is not comparable to a rocket.
You lose.
:rofl I'm pretty sure he was making an analogy. Besides, the 163 is pretty pathetic compared to a Saturn rocket. :noid
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It doesn't come close to matching the climb of the Me163. It cannot turn with any A6M or any Hurricane. Its flat out top speed on the deck is about 345mph, fast but by no means staggering. You're afraid of it because you've made it a bogeyman in your mind and are losing fights with it before the first maneuver.
WOW! are you saying that I think that it climbs like a 163? That is only a Figurativly speaking, saying that it climbs ulta fast. I know that its not fast, I never said it was. I only said that it has one of the best climbs in the game.
Oh, and I'm not afraid of the spixteen, I am decently skilled, and have out turned a pretty decent stick in a Mossie against a spixteen.
You twisted my words sir, try and get it right.
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WOW! are you saying that I think that it climbs like a 163? That is only a Figurativly speaking, saying that it climbs ulta fast. I know that its not fast, I never said it was. I only said that it has one of the best climbs in the game.
Oh, and I'm not afraid of the spixteen, I am decently skilled, and have out turned a pretty decent stick in a Mossie against a spixteen.
You twisted my words sir, try and get it right.
Technically speaking, a classic straw-man fallacy:
(http://members.aol.com/plittle/StrawmanPoster.jpg)
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WOW! are you saying that I think that it climbs like a 163? That is only a Figurativly speaking, saying that it climbs ulta fast. I know that its not fast, I never said it was. I only said that it has one of the best climbs in the game.
Oh, and I'm not afraid of the spixteen, I am decently skilled, and have out turned a pretty decent stick in a Mossie against a spixteen.
You twisted my words sir, try and get it right.
You blow its capabilities way out of proportion. If it were as good as you claim it would dominate, which it does not.
The F4U-1C was getting 15-20% of the kills in a given tour when it was unperked and maintaining a very high K/D ratio despite being flown enmasse by unskilled players. The Spitfire Mk XVI gets 6-7% and has a middling K/D ratio.
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I have my doubts about that, but I suppose I could just be deceived because of the inexperience of most Spit16 sticks...
At any rate... Let's consider something here... Let's assume we all like this game, and want it to continue. If we want that to happen, we need to have a constant influx of new players that remain in the game. To have that happen, we need to give the new players some sort of chance, so they don't get incredibly frustrated and quit. The Spit16 fits that bill nicely.
I don't understand the whole "perk it because new guys can do ok in it" argument. Give them a chance, already... They aren't hard to kill.
Fix? what i feel anyways, if your rank is lower than say 1000 have a perk on the spit 16. >1001 and no perk. how easy itd be im not sure, but its a thought, and if posible I feel it could be a potential fix.
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Fix? what i feel anyways, if your rank is lower than say 1000 have a perk on the spit 16. >1001 and no perk. how easy itd be im not sure, but its a thought, and if posible I feel it could be a potential fix.
Why? Nobody has yet given a single good reason to perk it.
It wasn't rare.
It isn't dominating.
It isn't being used excessively.
What possible justification is there to perk it?
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Why? Nobody has yet given a single good reason to perk it.
It wasn't rare.
It isn't dominating.
It isn't being used excessively.
What possible justification is there to perk it?
Good question, why perk anything when the Chog was ruling the air we didn't half the plane set we have now.
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Think of this, you are flying something fast, lets say F4U1-D (my favorite) you all know it can out turn it, but you have the alt. A spixteen ups and as soon as it takes off it climbs up to you; its now up to your alt in less then 30 seconds. You cain't rope him, or your dead; and if your not a decent pilot, you cain't even come close to killing it.
First of all, Spit16 can climb less than 2500 feet in 30 sec, so your claim "now up to your alt in less then 30 seconds" isnt true at all unless you dont have alt actually. Second, Corsair can bite Spit16 in turnfight or rope it (unlike you said above), and climbing 16 is free easy kill, nothing more.
Basically, you exaggerating every Spit16's ability in great scale and use it as base for "perk it" request.
Spit16 is best fighter for noobs because it encourage them to fight, not just pick & run like La7 or P-51D for example, and give them some chances agains more experienced pilots. It shouldnt be perked just because somebody cannt deal with it.
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Well, I said it earlier but I'll say it again... The Spit16 gives newer & less experienced/skilled players a decent chance of getting to shoot a guy down and share in the fun... While at the same time not unbalancing a thing.
You ever run across someone that just doesn't have the slightest clue, and then check out their stats? Some of these guys get a kill every 10-15 sorties at best. Give them a chance already.
If anyone is having a problem dealing with Spit16's, there's a pretty simple solution, anyway. Go into the DA with a good stick, take your favorite plane and ask him to fly a 16. Fight him over and over again, trying everything you can think of. Have more E, less, equal, merge this way, merge that. Go at it every night for a few weeks. MA problem solved.
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Well, I said it earlier but I'll say it again... The Spit16 gives newer & less experienced/skilled players a decent chance of getting to shoot a guy down and share in the fun... While at the same time not unbalancing a thing.
You ever run across someone that just doesn't have the slightest clue, and then check out their stats? Some of these guys get a kill every 10-15 sorties at best. Give them a chance already.
If anyone is having a problem dealing with Spit16's, there's a pretty simple solution, anyway. Go into the DA with a good stick, take your favorite plane and ask him to fly a 16. Fight him over and over again, trying everything you can think of. Have more E, less, equal, merge this way, merge that. Go at it every night for a few weeks. MA problem solved.
Nah, I have no problems with a spitty in my corsair.
I can outturn it with 75% flaps (slow of course, with gear down) and, well, I've found that corsairs work better than spitties above 400 mph so a dive takes care of the spitfire on your 6 pretty well. :D
I'll jump into a spixteen every-now-and-then when I'm feeling a little dweebish, and I usually don't come home with less than 4 kills... but that's the thing, it's an easy bird...
I get what you're saying about the new guys, the problem is, it teaches them how to fight with an advantage, I'd be more than willing to take some people out into the TA in corsairs, or p38's or hey, even p40's, and I've done it a few times, the last was 2 days ago, guy in the DA was saying how he was 'no good' so I offered to take him into the TA and show him some of the ropes, BCM's, some tips on SA, gunnery, stuff like that, and when he jumped back in, not only was he more confident, he was flying and getting some kills...
But that's the problem... not many sticks these days want to admit they have something they need to work on, not many of us want to accept aid because they feel they will be 'looked down on' or they're 'doing just fine'... but take "zerofire" (Yes, I'm talking about his shade...er...new account) all he does is get up to 12-13k in a tempest and BnZ, and thinks he's good... whereas I'm sure if as a new guy, someone woulda gone 'here's what we think is acceptible in these situations, here's some of the basics, some tips, and maybe even some advanced combat manuvers' I'm sure we'd be seeing a different guy...
So... in short, the spit 16 can also be hindering our future generation of sticks... as if they aren't hindered enough now... :aok
I'm an old h2h guy where 99% of the time, the spitfires would be disabled in the arenas, and you'd be flyin 109's, or p38's, and if you got lucky, a p51...
And imo, h2h gameplay was alot better, there was more respect, more teaching, more of the "hey, here's what you did wrong, and if you'd like, I'll work with you on it" and the reply was usually either, "Thank you sir, what field should we meet at" or "No thanks, I know what I did wrong..." not the standard ch 200 reply which I won't post here :aok
That's my $.02
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The thing about the Spixteen is not its turning ability, nor its E-retention/building ability. It is the combination of the two. This is what makes it so frustrating for much-worse turning fighters trying to apply E tactics against it. It can seemingly pull Gs in turning evasives with little concern for energy and still turn the table on the E states very quickly. And the roll rate makes it insane for jinking and jiving.
Of course, for aircraft with similar or greater turning ability, the Spixteen can often be a remarkably easy kill, because of bad angles tactics used by noobs and failure to fly the Spixteen as an energy fighter, despite its capacity in that role.
This may be the divide between those who think it needs to be perked and doesn't. If it went ~355mph instead of ~344 on the deck, I'd definitely be in the perking camp. If we had a clipped-wing SpitIX instead of the XVI, I'd be in the definitely don't perk it camp. As it is, I'm on the fence.
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Personally I think AH has them too fragile to enemy fire. I've never heard that Spit wings were particularly fragile to enemy fire.
very strong, light wing design (evidenced by their condition after hard crash landings) so you've got to be really brutal to rip the wings off it. however, it doesn't have a tonne of girders inside it to support 2000lb+ of ords (or indeed 16,000lb of ac), so will be more vulnerable to fire than eg. a jug wing.
edit: if you've seen lw guncam, you'll know that spit wings dont last that long under fire :(
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So... in short, the spit 16 can also be hindering our future generation of sticks... as if they aren't hindered enough now... :aok
There's another one who gets it. Because the Spit16 makes up for bad acm, it doesn't encourage learning it. There's lots of aircraft that are good for beginners but which still reveal enough mistakes to motivate growth. Here are the ones I can name off hand:
Spitfire VIII or IX
109F-4 or G-2
P-38L (no torque)
LA-5
KI-84 (great performance but gives lots of 'feedback' ;) if you try to manhandle the controls.)
Leaving noobs with the Spitfire VIII is hardly going to deny them fun or kills. However, it is a little slower than the 16, its acceleration is a little behind and it doesn't roll like a 190 (almost forgot the 4x303s instead of 2x50cals). Maybe that's just enough to still encourage the learning of acm but with minimum penalty for new folks.
Give the 16 a small perk and unperk the 14. :aok The Spit14 was never a problem in warbirds, and I used to love it when 14 pilots would try to turn fight me in the 109G-6. :P
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it out turns zekes, and with skill, hurris just as easy. it has one of the best accelerations in the game.
You are now "embellishing" to try and make a weak point stronger.
There is no way that a Spit 16 will out turn an A6M5 or an A6M2, nor a Hurricane ... in a pure turn fight.
I love it when I am in an FM2 and a Spit 16 "thinks" that they have an easy kill on the end of the line and decides to "turn" with me. Much to their surprise ... the fight doesn't last very long before they are back in the tower, and the FM2 has no chance against a Zeke in a pure turn fight.
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I'm an old h2h guy where 99% of the time, the spitfires would be disabled in the arenas...
I don't usually like to be curt, but that is pathetic.
(The Spits being disabled)
So... in short, the spit 16 can also be hindering our future generation of sticks... as if they aren't hindered enough now...
Please. This game takes the right sort of attitude if you want to improve. The plane means nothing. People learn just as many stupid things in every other plane in the set.
The 16 gives the guys who have no interest in improving, a reason to have an interest in maintaining their account.
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Good question, why perk anything when the Chog was ruling the air we didn't half the plane set we have now.
It wasn't just percentage of use the F4U-1C had, it was also that the F4U-1C's K/D ratio was much higher than expected for the most commonly used aircraft. It is, as a perk plane, well above 2 to 1, something the perked Spitfire Mk XIV has never even approached. Unperk the F4U-1C and it will still dominate in a way that will have you remembering the 7% of the P-51D and Spitfire Mk XVI as the good old days.
You are comparing apples and oranges I think.
Anaxogoras
Perk the Mk XVI and how long do you think it will be before these same people are crying for the Mk VIII to be perked? There is nothing in their whines about the Mk XVI that the Mk VIII cannot do as well.
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There's another one who gets it. Because the Spit16 makes up for bad acm, it doesn't encourage learning it. There's lots of aircraft that are good for beginners but which still reveal enough mistakes to motivate growth. Here are the ones I can name off hand:
Spitfire VIII or IX
109F-4 or G-2
P-38L (no torque)
LA-5
KI-84 (great performance but gives lots of 'feedback' ;) if you try to manhandle the controls.)
Leaving noobs with the Spitfire VIII is hardly going to deny them fun or kills. However, it is a little slower than the 16, its acceleration is a little behind and it doesn't roll like a 190 (almost forgot the 4x303s instead of 2x50cals). Maybe that's just enough to still encourage the learning of acm but with minimum penalty for new folks.
Give the 16 a small perk and unperk the 14. :aok The Spit14 was never a problem in warbirds, and I used to love it when 14 pilots would try to turn fight me in the 109G-6. :P
With the exception of the Spits (in that list), all those other planes will do nothing but frustrate the crap out of new players and cause them to leave. I can't believe that the P-38L is even in that list.
The "Spit" whine is never ending and the reason being is that "most" new people do gravitate to the Spit as their "start out" plane. Now, if we apply the logic of "they don't learn anything" flying the Spit variants and must always rely on the "Spit" advantage, then NOBODY would be flying anything but Spits ... and we all know that that is not true.
The simple fact is that there are a whole lot of people who don't fly Spits, who first learned in Spits ... and I am one of them. I started with the Spit 9 (the "whine" Spit when I first started flying, since replaced by the Spit 16) and eventually moved to the Spit V and have since moved on to other planes, but what I "learned" in the Spits did translate very well to other aircraft that I fly or flew.
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Please. This game takes the right sort of attitude if you want to improve. The plane means nothing. People learn just as many stupid things in every other plane in the set.
Humans are results-oriented creatures. We see the results we want, we assume that we gave the right input. The 16 allows for the wrong input to yield the desired result, and the same is infrequently true for most of the other non-perk rides in the game. This is not to say that you can't learn in an aircraft that is a poor measure of your inputs, but it necessitates the right attitude, whereas other aircraft teach a new pilot with results whether or not he has the right attitude.
Anaxogoras
Perk the Mk XVI and how long do you think it will be before these same people are crying for the Mk VIII to be perked? There is nothing in their whines about the Mk XVI that the Mk VIII cannot do as well.
I already stated the differences. The VIII is just slightly less capable than the XVI for main arena purposes, and that is enough.
With the exception of the Spits (in that list), all those other planes will do nothing but frustrate the crap out of new players and cause them to leave. I can't believe that the P-38L is even in that list.
The "Spit" whine is never ending and the reason being is that "most" new people do gravitate to the Spit as their "start out" plane. Now, if we apply the logic of "they don't learn anything" flying the Spit variants and must always rely on the "Spit" advantage, then NOBODY would be flying anything but Spits ... and we all know that that is not true.
The simple fact is that there are a whole lot of people who don't fly Spits, who first learned in Spits ... and I am one of them. I started with the Spit 9 (the "whine" Spit when I first started flying, since replaced by the Spit 16) and eventually moved to the Spit V and have since moved on to other planes, but what I "learned" in the Spits did translate very well to other aircraft that I fly or flew.
You're taking my words to the extreme. I never said new players shouldn't fly Spits.
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Humans are results-oriented creatures. We see the results we want, we assume that we gave the right input. The 16 allows for the wrong input to yield the desired result, and the same is infrequently true for most of the other non-perk rides in the game. This is not to say that you can't learn in an aircraft that is a poor measure of your inputs, but it necessitates the right attitude, whereas other aircraft teach a new pilot with results whether or not he has the right attitude.
Sometimes the Mk XVI will allow you to get away with the wrong input, and live a bit longer to learn more. But the right input always works better and what is right in a Mk XVI is close to what is right in a P-38L or Fw190D-9. Most people will gradually pick up what works better as, yes, even in the Mk XVI, doing the wrong thing usually gets you killed.
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what I'm sayin is, its just WAY to uber to fly against. I'm more afraid of a spixteen, then a Hurri, zeke, or niki, just because I know what it can do.
It climbs like a rocket, and has some of the best guns in the game. it out turns zekes, and with skill, hurris just as easy. it has one of the best accelerations in the game.
All of that is redundant, but thats what it is, is what it is.
Does it really out turn zero ?
This is for all you people who want to perk the 16 .
I am a pilot of low experience . Still haven't made my 3rd payment to HTC .I spend way too much time as it is thinking instead of doing .The more you have to think the further behind the "power curve" your decisions become . How many advantages do you want ? I hear you guys saying learn ACM . Well I am trying . I am also trying to learn the envelope of not only my ride but yours as well . You experienced pilots with your constant ridicule of not only the plane but the new meat trying to keep his head above water with the learning curve in here make me laugh . I bet you guys like to play full contact football with elementry kids . Jungle rules basketball against senior citizens . I can see you blowing hard on whatever passes for 200 in your community as well , about your great skills . Then screaming on the same channel if a 9 year old happens to slip a tackle . An octogenarian make a granny shot , about how lame their cleats are , or how a granny shot should be outlawed . I wonder if you have to worry so hard about someone who has flown less weeks here than some of you have years , skills are so great . As for you people who think a 16 will stop you from learning how to be a better stick i film almost everything . My improvement is fairly steady and that argument is alot of hogwash and unlike you I can prove my point with my films . It is just another lame argument you bully boys use who want every advantage their way .
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Spit 9 owns a Spit 16 any day. These MA idiots should be flying Spit 9s and spit 5s... I got ganged by 2 typical spit 16 pilots, Ganging HO tards, after about 5 turns, they were all dead, and I was in a Spit 9. Spit 16 is a Spit 9 with a different engine... :rolleyes:
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please excuse the heat of the last post . It is just that hearing this stuff every day when you are trying hard to learn in what can be a viscous setting gets to me some days . I said some things that were a little mean spirited and petty and I am truly sorry for them <blush>
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please excuse the heat of the last post . It is just that hearing this stuff every day when you are trying hard to learn in what can be a viscous setting gets to me some days . I said some things that were a little mean spirited and petty and I am truly sorry for them <blush>
Don't worry about it. Some guys have been in this hobby for two decades now and forget what it is like to be new.
I originally signed up to WarBirds, and later Aces High, to fly simulated Spitfires. The constant whining eventually drove me out of them, but I still defend their free use. I hardly ever play anymore, and when I do it is usually a Mosquito or Ki-84, but I still have a fondness for Spits.
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Don't worry about it. Some guys have been in this hobby for two decades now and forget what it is like to be new.
I originally signed up to WarBirds, and later Aces High, to fly simulated Spitfires. The constant whining eventually drove me out of them, but I still defend their free use. I hardly ever play anymore, and when I do it is usually a Mosquito or Ki-84, but I still have a fondness for Spits.
I guess you too have a few models of them hanging around , possibly read Fly for your life and Wing Leader a time or 2 as well ? Just cant understand why the guys that love the German birds are accepted but if you happen to have a historical love for a British ride you are lacking somehow .
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Just cant understand why the guys that love the German birds are accepted but if you happen to have a historical love for a British ride you are lacking somehow .
It boils down to this... Remember a month or so ago the way running into a Corsair made you feel? People get the same dread over Spits.
Of course, YOU took the proactive stance and decided to get some serious sticktime taking your lumps against Hogs in the DA. Now I'll bet seeing a "F4U" icon in the MA is no big deal. Sure, you won't win them all... But at least you have the confidence in yourself to figure it's going to be a fun fight instead of your execution waiting to happen.
Most people don't take that approach... Hence the "Perk the [insert plane they can't handle]" whines.
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Yes, but the 16 does need a perk. As fast as it is, roll rate, acceleration. They should be learning the Spit 9 and Spit 5. The average idiot in a Spit 16 makes it look like junk, but in the right hands, it does need to be perked.
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It's just the way it is, or so it seems hlbly. I've read both of those books too and used to cruise at around at 27k not for an altitude advantage, but just because of all the literature i had read.:)
I began by flying the spit 9 years ago, i still recommend the spitfires to anyone learning to fly in AH. They're very good for learning ACM etc. I would probably fly them a lot more if i didn't get fed up with everyone running away.
Angels, I see no reason why a person shouldn't learn in the 16 rather than the 9. I think it should have a perk price either, most planes have a few advantages over it.
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It boils down to this... Remember a month or so ago the way running into a Corsair made you feel? People get the same dread over Spits.
Of course, YOU took the proactive stance and decided to get some serious sticktime taking your lumps against Hogs in the DA. Now I'll bet seeing a "F4U" icon in the MA is no big deal. Sure, you won't win them all... But at least you have the confidence in yourself to figure it's going to be a fun fight instead of your execution waiting to happen.
Most people don't take that approach... Hence the "Perk the [insert plane they can't handle]" whines.
Hogs are fear worthy in the DA because every single one is a C-Hog. ;)
I guess you too have a few models of them hanging around , possibly read Fly for your life and Wing Leader a time or 2 as well ? Just cant understand why the guys that love the German birds are accepted but if you happen to have a historical love for a British ride you are lacking somehow .
You have got to be kidding me. 190D-9 pilots get ripped on all of the time. And the 262? :P On the other hand, I've never been called a dweeb for flying a 109 because most have a rough time when they try it themselves.
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Yes, but the 16 does need a perk. As fast as it is, roll rate, acceleration. They should be learning the Spit 9 and Spit 5. The average idiot in a Spit 16 makes it look like junk, but in the right hands, it does need to be perked.
You are wrong. Learning in a Spit IX might be ok, a bit miserable as it is so slow, but ok. The Spit V would be pure torture, slow as crap and 5 seconds of ammo to learn to shoot with. The Spit XVI will teach a lot more about combat maneuvering than the Mk V, which will only teach the luftberry and split s against most MA rides.
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Yes, but the 16 does need a perk. As fast as it is, roll rate, acceleration. They should be learning the Spit 9 and Spit 5. The average idiot in a Spit 16 makes it look like junk, but in the right hands, it does need to be perked.
Your kidding right ? My 1st 3 or so weeks I flew nothing but a Mk.IX . <beacause it was Johnnie Johnsons ride> . The main thing I learned was one mistake and you are dead .Had a profound fear of f4u-1c . Was becoming a little discouraged because I got like 4 or 5 , 1v1's with Rolex . 1 with Spatula . Some serious time from Mntman and Murder as well . Was still not making great improvement because 1 small mistake and I was dead .<alot of thinking way too much> . Then I ran into Vudak . We went to DA and sparred hours at a time .him in the dreaded F4U me in Mk.IX . Then he and Rolex on the same day suggested that I try the XVI and the VIII . Suddenly in furballs I could make a small error and recover from it . Live a bit longer make some more errors even capitalise on one the NME was making and get a kill . Shazaam suddenly I am getting some kills and loving the stuffing right out of it . Now I wont turn and run if I see a 1c . I know a bit more about what to do and not to do . As a matter of fact I learned it was the 1a that you need to look out a lil bit for . It is still a very tough learning curve .I know there are going to be spells when I will not lower my landing gear for sortie after sortie . I also know there are going to be those multi kill landed sorties . I have a long ways to go but eventually when the day comes and I am tooling around in a fork and i run into someone who is fresh meat I will not ridicule their plane instead I will tell them my honest opion of what plane is good for a learner and why i think that . One last point . I think you just dont remember what it is like to have to learn all of this at once . It wouldn't be the same but try going to the DA and fly the TBM and nothing but a TBM for a few days see how it feels . Even that way you have it better than the new guy . You know ACM you know the envelopes of the plane set . Just try the frustration of being destroyed with almost 0 chance of landing and way small chance of even killing . Get a small taste of what its like . Then tell me about how the Spit should be made unattainable for the fresh meat . See if you would continue if your planeset was nothing but single engine bombers .
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Honestly, I can see nothing about the SpitXVI that would improve the lot of the average noob vrs. the SpitIX all that much. Noobs basically know to pull the stick back, and can't shoot very well. Both planes turn well and have cannons. The 9 is if anything a steadier gun platform. Roll rate and all that engine power are things that mostly require a slightly more advanced hand to make good use of.
Your kidding right ? My 1st 3 or so weeks I flew nothing but a Mk.IX . <beacause it was Johnnie Johnsons ride> . The main thing I learned was one mistake and you are dead .Had a profound fear of f4u-1c . Was becoming a little discouraged because I got like 4 or 5 , 1v1's with Rolex . 1 with Spatula . Some serious time from Mntman and Murder as well . Was still not making great improvement because 1 small mistake and I was dead .<alot of thinking way too much> . Then I ran into Vudak . We went to DA and sparred hours at a time .him in the dreaded F4U me in Mk.IX . Then he and Rolex on the same day suggested that I try the XVI and the VIII . Suddenly in furballs I could make a small error and recover from it . Live a bit longer make some more errors even capitalise on one the NME was making and get a kill . Shazaam suddenly I am getting some kills and loving the stuffing right out of it . Now I wont turn and run if I see a 1c . I know a bit more about what to do and not to do . As a matter of fact I learned it was the 1a that you need to look out a lil bit for . It is still a very tough learning curve .I know there are going to be spells when I will not lower my landing gear for sortie after sortie . I also know there are going to be those multi kill landed sorties . I have a long ways to go but eventually when the day comes and I am tooling around in a fork and i run into someone who is fresh meat I will not ridicule their plane instead I will tell them my honest opion of what plane is good for a learner and why i think that . One last point . I think you just dont remember what it is like to have to learn all of this at once . It wouldn't be the same but try going to the DA and fly the TBM and nothing but a TBM for a few days see how it feels . Even that way you have it better than the new guy . You know ACM you know the envelopes of the plane set . Just try the frustration of being destroyed with almost 0 chance of landing and way small chance of even killing . Get a small taste of what its like . Then tell me about how the Spit should be made unattainable for the fresh meat . See if you would continue if your planeset was nothing but single engine bombers .
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Honestly, I can see nothing about the SpitXVI that would improve the lot of the average noob vrs. the SpitIX all that much. Noobs basically know to pull the stick back, and can't shoot very well. Both planes turn well and have cannons. The 9 is if anything a steadier gun platform. Roll rate and all that engine power are things that mostly require a slightly more advanced hand to make good use of.
The Mk VIII and Mk XVI's better power allow a greater margin of error to be recovered from so the fight can continue. New players learn remarkably little on the climb out and transit to another base.
And all of this is moot as not one of you has yet demonstrated a single reason at all as to why it should be perked. Failing that basic requirement does not put you on a good road to success. All the vague "it rolls too well, turns too well, accelerates too well, is too fast, climbs too well and hits too hard" garbage is completely subjective. The non subjective numbers say that is has a middling K/D ratio and its percentage of kills is right in line with the P-51D, La-7 and N1K2-J. If it were posting much higher numbers than they are, you'd have an argument, but it isn't, so you don't.
hlbly,
Johnie Johnson flew a Spitfire LF.Mk IX powered by a Merlin 66 (same engine as in our Mk VIII), not the older Merlin 61 powered F.Mk IX we have in AH. The Merlin 61 is tuned for high altitude performance and it lags behind at lower altitudes typical of MA combat altitudes. The Spitfire Mk XVI is powered by an American built Merlin 266 which is very similar to the Merlin 66 and last I saw our Spitfire Mk XVI's performance actually matched the power curves of a Merlin 66 instead of the Merlin 266 (266 has a critical altitude 1000ft higher). So your Spitfire Mk XVI is closer to what Johnnie Johnson flew than our Spitfire Mk IX is.
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I only fly the Spit 9 and Spit 5 when it comes to spitties.
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I only fly the Spit 9 and Spit 5 when it comes to spitties.
That is fine. Others fly what they like though and unless there is a good reason to restrict something it shouldn't be restricted.
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You are far underestimating the Spit 16. It turns tighter and is much faster than the F6F at all altitudes.
I have never experienced 'instability' in the Spitfire. Thing's solid as a rock.
It isn't "much" faster down low, and if HTC corrects the FM's speed curve with the F6F upgrade, it will be just as fast up high. You can do things with the F6F that you cannot do in a SpitXVI as the Spit is too unstable at low speeds and high AoA, which can get ugly if you are not very careful.
If you haven't experienced stability issues with the SpitXVI, you haven't been pushed very hard. I'd rather fly the SpitVIII as it trades a bit of speed for better stability at the limit. Indeed, I've never lost a duel to a SpitXVI while flying the SpitVIII.
I see no reason to perk any Spitfire, including the Mk.XIV.
My regards,
Widewing
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I'm really confused on what the definition of "unbalancing" is.
This is what I gather...
So we perk the 262 because it goes REALLY fast and has 30mm, very hard to fly though (take off and landing is more challenging than other planes), once you get slow, your essentially dead...
Same for the Tempest minus taking off and landing, but it has 20mm...
We perk the C-hog because it has 4 20mm instead of 6x50's, but no real performance benefit over the other F4U's. So based on this, a Niki should be perked too...?
We perk the Spit XIV because it goes faster than your average spit (and has 50's instead of 303's), but doesn't turn as well...
We perk the F4U-4 Because it climbs very well, but it still has a 6x50 cal gun package...
My question is, what is it about these planes, really, that makes them unbalancing?
You couldn't see this?
We perk the Spit XVI because it decelerates/accelerates quickly, has 50cals and 20mm's, climbs very well, is fast, turns very well, carries more ord than other spits, and (just like any of the other perked and some unperked planes...) in the right hands is VERY lethal. Even in the WRONG hands it can STILL be lethal!
Now I'm not really complaining about the Spit XVI, I just really don't understand why when someone gives a load of reasons why a plane is should be perked, people reply with "you haven't given me one reason as to why it's unbalancing."
So what the *bleep* makes a plane "unbalancing?!" Perhaps if we had some REAL guidelines to this, we'd understand and stop seeing these flame war threads about perking rides.
Now I agree with the people that say that we need a ride for beginners wholeheartedly. Perhaps the price of a plane should vary directly with your rank in that type of plane. So one person pays lets say 30 perks for a ride because he's ranked below 200, while the high ranked pay 5 or even less perks (dependent on the aircraft).
This is just an idea. If you have any comments, don't put them in flame form please. Nothing gets accomplished when people are at each other's necks. :salute
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First of all, Spit16 can climb less than 2500 feet in 30 sec, so your claim "now up to your alt in less then 30 seconds" isnt true at all unless you dont have alt actually. Second, Corsair can bite Spit16 in turnfight or rope it (unlike you said above), and climbing 16 is free easy kill, nothing more.
Basically, you exaggerating every Spit16's ability in great scale and use it as base for "perk it" request.
Spit16 is best fighter for noobs because it encourage them to fight, not just pick & run like La7 or P-51D for example, and give them some chances agains more experienced pilots. It shouldnt be perked just because somebody cannt deal with it.
Not at all, a F4U1-D cain't even come close to out climbng any spit, other than maybe the spit1. It cain't out turn a F4U1-D, but it can certainly out fight it in a vertical. Maybe a U4 might be the only one that can outclimb the spixteen.
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I'm really confused on what the definition of "unbalancing" is.
I think everyone is. If the standard is some plane that ends up flying 1/4 of all sorties, I don't think its going to happen in today's LW MA, with all the plane choices available and many personal preferences. If we unperked everything, you might see a ton of 262s, Tempests, 4Hogs, etc...for a week. After that, I predict everything would largely go back to normal. Does that mean the whole perk system should be discarded?
The F4U-4 does not out-climb the SpitXVI, although it is better in every other regard. Still, a good hand in a SpitXVI can pull out a win against a good hand in an F4U-4 often enough that you can't take the Spit lightly in this match.
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Not at all, a F4U1-D cain't even come close to out climbng any spit, other than maybe the spit1.
Never said it can.
It cain't out turn a F4U1-D, but it can certainly out fight it in a vertical.
Climb have very little effect on fight result unless you want to extend and return with alt advantage.
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Not at all, a F4U1-D cain't even come close to out climbng any spit, other than maybe the spit1. It cain't out turn a F4U1-D, but it can certainly out fight it in a vertical. Maybe a U4 might be the only one that can outclimb the spixteen.
Well, to be honest, no it "cant" outclimb, but the thing is, that's if the two planes were side to side goin the same speed, and pulled up at the same time...
From my experiance, corsair sticks are able to conserve E better than their spitty counterparts, giving them oh maybe a 20-50mph advantage over the spit on the start of the climb, both planes hit WEP, and, in my experiance, both planes stall out relativly at the same time, and the fight goes to he who can get out of the stall first, regain control of the plane, and shoot...
The problem I have with the spit XVI is this, it has 20mm's AND 50 cals, it can turn (once those flaps come out, game over...), it can climb, it can run, it can roll, it can do almost anything... I don't see why the Spit XIV is perked when the XVI is all around better (except in speed...)
My $.02
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This may be the divide between those who think it needs to be perked and doesn't. If it went ~355mph instead of ~344 on the deck, I'd definitely be in the perking camp. If we had a clipped-wing SpitIX instead of the XVI, I'd be in the definitely don't perk it camp. As it is, I'm on the fence.
You realise that the flight model (based on the full throttle height) actually makes the XVI a Mid 1944 LF IXe. So theres your clipped Mk IX.
Wonder if the tag was LFIXe instead of XVI if we would get half of these threads.
Take away the 50cals and replace them with .303s you have a 1943 LF IX !!!!!!!!!
Bring back the old CCC Mk Vc and clip it.
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Sir,
I was referring to the performance of our Mk IX, a plane whose turning is good and whose E building abilities are also merely good, not good and extremely good, ala our XVI.
If the SpitXVI were a 1934 production model, it still would not change its attributes, which make it a very superior aircraft in all respects except top speed, where it must deal with simply being decent. Almost any plane the SpitXVI cannot out-turn, it will have an enviable horsepower advantage over. The only exceptions to this rule I can think of are the SpitVIII, the Ki-84, and the F4U-4.
I can't come right out and say perk the XVI because, purely because it is not so fast, but I will say it is certainly very near the top of the list of strongest non-perked rides.
You realise that the flight model (based on the full throttle height) actually makes the XVI a Mid 1944 LF IXe. So theres your clipped Mk IX.
Wonder if the tag was LFIXe instead of XVI if we would get half of these threads.
Take away the 50cals and replace them with .303s you have a 1943 LF IX !!!!!!!!!
Bring back the old CCC Mk Vc and clip it.
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why do most people despise spits? is it because they really were one of the better WW2 aircraft out there ,or maybe one of the most effective aircraft.....then maybe we should perk the P51-D i have seen those guys cook through a base blow the crap out of it and fly away trailing about 30 planes behind that are Turing to catch him ,to no avail ..very fast aircraft...anyway that's just my 2 cents
50 Cents
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For what its worth, I think the ability of the Spits in AHII to pull Gs with so little E loss relative other planes must be a little over-blown.
In a sim, as opposed to real life, the ability to out-climb, out-accelerate, and out-turn most will always be more desired than the ability to out-run most.
why do most people despise spits? is it because they really were one of the better WW2 aircraft out there ,or maybe one of the most effective aircraft.....then maybe we should perk the P51-D i have seen those guys cook through a base blow the crap out of it and fly away trailing about 30 planes behind that are Turing to catch him ,to no avail ..very fast aircraft...anyway that's just my 2 cents
50 Cents
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why do most people despise spits?
Reading comprehension? ;) We don't hate Spits. In fact, many of us would like to see the XIV unperked and the XVI take its place.
For what its worth, I think the ability of the Spits in AHII to pull Gs with so little E loss relative other planes must be a little over-blown.
We had so many debates about this at argo's warbirds page it would make you vomit. :P Basically, the Spitfire has fairly low wingloading and the wing is thin, which makes for very little induced drag at low/medium speeds. That means that the Spitfire can turn at a very high rate without pulling a lot of AoA (high AoA means drag, you slow down). On the flip side, Spitfires are a bit slower than, e.g. 109s with similar horsepower because their low wingloading becomes a parasite drag liability at high speed.
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I enjoyed the rest of your article,but wasn't it because of the elliptical wing?on the spit. The despise came in to play because i have heard people on vox *dam spits turn on a dime hate those$%^#....* get my drift lol.i apologize for that ...since it did bother you(obviously) i only came over here about a month ago so sort of feeling everything out ...may have stuck my nose in the wrong place :cool:
50 Cents
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Sir,
I was referring to the performance of our Mk IX, a plane whose turning is good and whose E building abilities are also merely good, not good and extremely good, ala our XVI
You can't have something that never existed. There were no clipped Spitfire F.Mk IXs powered by a Merlin 61. Therefore, to get a clipped Mk IX, you end up with either the exact same plane as the Mk XVI for a 1944 version or the same except replacing the .50s with four .303s for a 1943 version.
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reading comprehension?? ...LMAO ....wow do you feel better now?? great welcome for coming over to this sim a month ago
anyway ill disregard that this time being that I'm 50 and and should know better then respond to this I made a statement don't read into it so deeply ...
50 Cents
Don't feel unwelcome, we're glad to have ya. :aok But you did make a huge exaggeration followed by a minor rant; next time I'll just let it go, ok? :salute
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Oh sorry i was joking around ..oops,anyway you have alot of knowledge on aircraft that site you metioned,would it have a good read on spitfires,That i could look at?or any other info on that sweet little plane.
50 Cents :salute