Aces High Bulletin Board
General Forums => The O' Club => Topic started by: SkyRock on September 09, 2008, 09:04:18 AM
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old school astrology?
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:huh
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old school astrology?
That is all it is........ :aok
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I've heard that theory, the Zeitgeist film discusses it in detail. I'm sure it has a lot more to do with it than a lot would like to admit.
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Here is the essence of Christianity:
John 3:16 (New International Version)
New International Version (NIV)
Copyright © 1973, 1978, 1984 by International Bible Society
16"For God so loved the world that he gave his one and only Son,[a] that whoever believes in him shall not perish but have eternal life.
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Here is the essence of Christianity:
John 3:16 (New International Version)
New International Version (NIV)
Copyright © 1973, 1978, 1984 by International Bible Society
16"For God so loved the world that he gave his one and only Son,[a] that whoever believes in him shall not perish but have eternal life.
Where does God live? Who did GOd mate with to have a son? Is there more than one God where God lives?
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and why did he decide that Catholics should be fake cannibals?
That's never made sense to me.
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Where does God live? Who did GOd mate with to have a son? Is there more than one God where God lives?
Be careful, being flippant toward God is not advised :O
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Christianity is nothing more than treating people the way you want to be treated. I don't think people really get that anymore. It's not about going to church every sunday, or praying. It's loving you neighbor.
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Where does God live? Who did GOd mate with to have a son? Is there more than one God where God lives?
You've really redefined ADD-
I believe you to be so afflicted with the need for any and all attention that you'll do anything to get it. You should hire a full time nanny to just stand around and constantly acknowledge you. Maybe a pat on the head or a tender hug. Anything to keep the pacifier in.
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Where does God live? Who did GOd mate with to have a son? Is there more than one God where God lives?
One place he lives is in the hearts of Christians, beyond time and space also of course. Have you not heard the story of Mary and the virgin birth of Jesus? I believe there is only one creator of time and space though this concept of oneness may be only a human perception.
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Where does God live? Who did GOd mate with to have a son? Is there more than one God where God lives?
God lives everywhere............ you ever see something out of the corner of your eye... like in the mirror...and look real quick and nothing there?
GOD
God is a creator.... he makes things up all the time..... ( The true miracle of Christmas - Joseph believed Mary) - old joke
Mary
The Holy Trinity is ONE GOD....huh? How can a Trinity be one?
Cuz God Says So....
Christianity is based on a real person.. Jesus of Nazareth... Son of God? We all are according to Jewish and Christian beliefs.. but according to Christianity..Jesus is God while on earth and in Heaven...
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Chuck Norris <------- owns god :D
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Just what this board needs another argument that neither side will ever change the other.
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Where does God live? Who did GOd mate with to have a son? Is there more than one God where God lives?
1. According to tradition, somewhere beyond the upper atmosphere. Admittedly, that does not narrow it down much...
2. Mary, you know this part, why ask?
3. Interesting fact: No part of the Bible implies that the other Gods are nonexistent...it just says why it doesn't like them. It says "Thou shalt have no other gods before Me.", not "You know Baal, Amon-Ra, Zeus? All those guys are made-up." Big and interesting difference between that and what is typically believed today.
But let me ask a question: What are YOU doing about the fact that your parents, yourself, your wife, your children, basically everyone you ever have or ever will love, are already or are going to be wormfood in a period of time that is uncomfortably soon?
"For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him shall not perish, but have everlasting life." John 3:16-May be horse-hockey for all I know. I don't go to Church, or believe the Bible is infallible or anything...but...still...John 3:16 seems like a better deal than Peter Griffin 69:69 "Nah, just kidding kids, ya rot in the ground!"
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One place he lives is in the hearts of Christians, beyond time and space also of course. Have you not heard the story of Mary and the virgin birth of Jesus? I believe there is only one creator of time and space though this concept of oneness may be only a human perception.
Wrong all hearts not just Christians.
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Just what this board needs another argument that neither side will ever change the other.
People change their minds all the time. Shared opinions and experiences are useful to those with open minds.
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Wrong all hearts not just Christians.
I agree with a qualifier, he won't intrude where unwanted.
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*Face Palm*
Oh boy more religious arguments on the internet!
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All faiths were created out of our need to understand death, people are afraid of death so they want to know that when they die that there will be something else, not just lights out, shows over, which unfortunately is what happens.
As you can probably guess, yes I am an Atheist, I just see way too many things that show there was no God who snapped his fingers one day and said let there be man. We have the skeletal proof for evolution, look at Neanderthals, if there was no evolution then where did these guys come from, plus we have the skeletal remains of even lower forms of human life, also the Earth is about 4 billion years old, with man only being on it for the last hundred thousand years or so, so why was the Earth here for so long, with other life forms, like the dinosaurs, before we got here, and the universe itself is around 14 billion years old, so it's been around 10 billion years longer then the Earth has, so what was God just sitting around all those billions of years scratching his butt deciding on weather to create us or not? Believe me, I wish that there was more to life after death, I mean who wants to die and have that be just it, and thats the reason we created religions, to help us cope with that fact.
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... not just lights out, shows over, which unfortunately is what happens.
Can you prove this? What's your evidence? You can't prove the unproveable, either way...
Myself? I prefer Pascal's Wager... :pray
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I don't know what to make of these...
Slavery
Exodus Chapter 21, verse 1:
Now these are the ordinances which you shall set before them. When you buy a Hebrew slave, he shall serve six years, and in the seventh he shall go out free, for nothing. If he comes in single, he shall go out single; if he comes in married, then his wife shall go out with him. If his master gives him a wife and she bears him sons or daughters, the wife and her children shall be her master's and he shall go out alone. But if the slave plainly says, 'I love my master, my wife, and my children; I will not go out free,' then his master shall bring him to God, and he shall bring him to the door or the doorpost; and his master shall bore his ear through with an awl; and he shall serve him for life.
Teenagers beware
Deut 21:18-21:
If someone has a stubborn and rebellious son who will not obey his father and mother, who does not heed them when they discipline him, then his father and his mother shall take hold of him and bring him out to the elders of his town at the gate of that place. They shall say to the elders of his town, ‘This son of ours is stubborn and rebellious. He will not obey us. He is a glutton and a drunkard.’ Then all the men of the town shall stone him to death. So you shall purge the evil from your midst; and all Israel will hear, and be afraid.
Women
1 Timothy chapter 2:
Also that women should adorn themselves modestly and sensibly in seemly apparel, not with braided hair or gold or pearls or costly attire but by good deeds, as befits women who profess religion. Let a woman learn in silence with all submissiveness. I permit no woman to teach or to have authority over men; she is to keep silent.
Jesus
Matthew 15:22-26:
A Canaanite woman from that vicinity came to him, crying out, "Lord, Son of David, have mercy on me! My daughter is suffering terribly from demon-possession." Jesus did not answer a word. So his disciples came to him and urged him, "Send her away, for she keeps crying out after us." He answered, "I was sent only to the lost sheep of Israel." The woman came and knelt before him. "Lord, help me!" she said. He replied, "It is not right to take the children's bread and toss it to their dogs."
Bit harsh
In Mark 11:12-14:
The next day as they were leaving Bethany, Jesus was hungry. Seeing in the distance a fig tree in leaf, he went to find out if it had any fruit. When he reached it, he found nothing but leaves, because it was not the season for figs. Then he said to the tree, "May no one ever eat fruit from you again." And his disciples heard him say it.
Constantine could have chosen better methinks.
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If you believe then you need to watch this movie and disprove it.
Watch all three videos.....
It will open your eyes.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Kla-BcN8u8Q&feature=related (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Kla-BcN8u8Q&feature=related)
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if there is no existence after death, you won't know it, you will be dead.
if there is some form of existence after death how long will it last? How many billions of years, thats a long time to play a harp.
Or maybe you will have to come back here and do it all over again and again and again.
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Christianity is not old school astrology; it's more like a main-stream cult.
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If you believe then you need to watch this movie and disprove it.
Watch all three videos.....
It will open your eyes.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Kla-BcN8u8Q&feature=related (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Kla-BcN8u8Q&feature=related)
That was really interesting. I really got a kick out of this quote-
"The Christian religion is a parody on the worship of the sun, in which they place a man called Christ in the place of the sun, and pay him the adoration originally payed to the sun."
-Thomas Paine
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Be careful, being flippant toward God is not advised :O
which God?
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You've really redefined ADD-
I believe you to be so afflicted with the need for any and all attention that you'll do anything to get it. You should hire a full time nanny to just stand around and constantly acknowledge you. Maybe a pat on the head or a tender hug. Anything to keep the pacifier in.
:rofl Why would you care, if you feel that way, then don't post in my thread! :devil
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Did you read what Jesus did to the fig tree? you better be careful skyrock.
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Who did GOd mate with to have a son?
(http://i156.photobucket.com/albums/t5/AK_Comrade/abstinence-1.jpg)
:lol
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That was really interesting. I really got a kick out of this quote-
"The Christian religion is a parody on the worship of the sun, in which they place a man called Christ in the place of the sun, and pay him the adoration originally payed to the sun."
-Thomas Paine
Actually, Paine had it spot on, and that is exactly what I believe about christianity. :aok
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Did you read what Jesus did to the fig tree? you better be careful skyrock.
Yeah, he tore a leaf off and covered the best part of eve. :aok
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:rofl Why would you care, if you feel that way, then don't post in my thread! :devil
I weighed the consequences of giving you what you so desperately seek against my burning personal need to again point out what everyone who's ever been exposed to your typing has to realize.
The latter won out.
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Actually, Paine had it spot on, and that is exactly what I believe about christianity. :aok
I thought it was funny because so many Conservatives say that the Founding Fathers were fundamentalist Christians- whether or not you consider Paine to be one of the Founding Fathers, he was a major figure in revolutionary America.
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I just find it really hard to believe that when I die my consciousness is going to be transported to another realm(heaven) and I'll float around with other dead people.
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God, we call him/her/it isnt a "being" that can be confined within the defination of life as we know it. For "him" to exist as we claim him to then he must be a being who exists in more dimensions than us. The comparsion I've seen to describe this is that of an amobea to that of us.The amobea exists in a 2 dimensional world. Itonly precieves what is beside it..this if we place a finger beside it , it "sees" that sliver of finger beside it.
Our perception is much more complex and basicly beyond that amobea's comprehension.
This is how I precieve God to exist.
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(http://i197.photobucket.com/albums/aa222/Setian_Sins/God.jpg)
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It's almost funny to see non Christians perceptions of Christianity. Almost....
:salute
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The Church is the problem with Christianity, not Christianity itself. When the Crusades first started, The Church had the Crusaders killing Christians first who would not bow down to The Church. Our Founding Fathers feared a State Church, not Christianity.
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The Church is the problem with Christianity, not Christianity itself. When the Crusades first started, The Church had the Crusaders killing Christians first who would not bow down to The Church. Our Founding Fathers feared a State Church, not Christianity.
Close....but no cigar. The problem is with man's fallibility, not with the Church or with Christianity.
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I weighed the consequences of giving you what you so desperately seek against my burning personal need to again point out what everyone who's ever been exposed to your typing has to realize.
The latter won out.
Jeesh, am I going to have to get some ankle off for you? let it be and be gone.
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It's almost funny to see non Christians perceptions of Christianity. Almost....
:salute
I was once saved and baptized as a young man, then I "read" the bible and was never the same. Since, studying as much as I can on the topic, I have concluded that christianity is blatant, old school, sun worship.
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nvm
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I was once saved and baptized as a young man, then I "read" the bible and was never the same. Since, studying as much as I can on the topic, I have concluded that christianity is blatnat, old school, sun worship.
Ok, having made that revelation, why the heck don't they shut up at night?
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I was once saved and baptized as a young man, then I "read" the bible and was never the same. Since, studying as much as I can on the topic, I have concluded that christianity is blatnat, old school, sun worship.
You are free to believe as you choose. ;)
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Interesting fact: No part of the Bible implies that the other Gods are nonexistent...
err... "false idols"?
christianity is blatant, old school, son worship.
fixed :D
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Ok, having made that revelation, why the heck don't they shut up at night?
Maybe because it isn't Sun Worship? :)
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I was once saved and baptized as a young man, then I "read" the bible and was never the same. Since, studying as much as I can on the topic, I have concluded that christianity is blatnat, old school, sun worship.
From your original questions I must assume your reading comprehension is somewhat lacking.
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Ok, having made that revelation, why the heck don't they shut up at night?
:huh
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From your original questions I must assume your reading comprehension is somewhat lacking.
blah blah blah, I comprehend just fine. Whats your point, or maybe you have a problem conveying your thoughts!
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fixed :D
But, the commandments say; do not have any other gods before me.
So, wouldn't worshiping Jesus be... wrong?
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Its the "Q" Continium.
(http://tbn0.google.com/images?q=tbn:IJgPJNRBEdfrKM:http://www.joystiq.com/media/2006/04/star_trek_Q.jpg)
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Close....but no cigar. The problem is with man's fallibility, not with the Church or with Christianity.
Power corrupts, absolute power corrupts absolutely. Our Founding Fathers, who were predominantly Christian, did not want unelected officials of a Central/State Church ruling America. Jesus had no love for large churches either.
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I was once saved and baptized as a young man, then I "read" the bible and was never the same. Since, studying as much as I can on the topic, I have concluded that christianity is blatant, old school, sun worship.
And so I am sure you can quote verses from the Bible to prove your theory? Since you "read" it and all?
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But, the commandments say; do not have any other gods before me.
So, wouldn't worshiping Jesus be... wrong?
No! Jesus is God!
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yeah google "Holy Trinity". just dont expect to get your head around it for a few decades, if at all :)
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Jesus had no love for large churches either.
The Church didn't come into existence until after Christ had been crucified and rose from the dead, then ascended into Heaven.
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But, the commandments say; do not have any other gods before me.
So, wouldn't worshiping Jesus be... wrong?
Jesus is just one part of the Holy Trinity, God the Father, Holy Spirit and Jesus Christ.
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No! Jesus is God!
No, and neither is Marry. Yet the Catholics seem to want to worship her as well.
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And so I am sure you can quote verses from the Bible to prove your theory? Since you "read" it and all?
prove my theory? :rofl
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Jesus is just one part of the Holy Trinity, God the Father, Holy Spirit and Jesus Christ.
Which would mean that 'God' and 'Jesus' are two separate entities.
There's no point in arguing, at all, past this point, since one side of the argument will say that this is illogical and the other will say that God has made it that way and thus that is the way it is, disregarding logic... soooo....
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well ive always interpreted it as "God: the Father, the Holy Spirit and Jesus Christ" (most CofE vicars seem to pause after "God") but hey, scholars are still arguing about this 2000yrs later...
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Since you "read" it and all?
yup, read the old testemant my 11th grade year in HS and the new my 12th grade year. Mrs. Rodman, my Bible class teacher, was a great teacher and strict about her students reading the bible before graduating.
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No, and neither is Marry. Yet the Catholics seem to want to worship her as well.
Venerating/honoring and worshipping are two different things.
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The Church didn't come into existence until after Christ had been crucified and rose from the dead, then ascended into Heaven.
When I say Church, I'm speaking of any large organized religion. This would also include the man made global warming crowd.
P.S. Don't forget how Jesus was tipping the tables of the money lenders at his Fathers Temple.
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well ive always interpreted it as "God: the Father, the Holy Spirit and Jesus Christ" but hey, scholars are still arguing about this 2000yrs later...
How could 'the Father' and 'Jesus' be one and the same if 'the Father' impregnated Mary to create 'Jesus'? Again, the argument is going to dissolve into 'because he said so', so...
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well ive always interpreted it as "God: the Father, the Holy Spirit and Jesus Christ" (most CofE vicars seem to pause after "God") but hey, scholars are still arguing about this 2000yrs later...
Which would mean that 'God' and 'Jesus' are two separate entities.
There's no point in arguing, at all, past this point, since one side of the argument will say that this is illogical and the other will say that God has made it that way and thus that is the way it is, disregarding logic... soooo....
The best analogy I've seen is - H2O: liquid, solid, gas (water, ice, steam). They are all H2O with differering appearances and properties...
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Anyone who can worship a trinity and insist that his religion is a monotheism can believe anything... just give him time to rationalize it.
---Robert A. Heinlein
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yeah thats pretty good JAGED. don't tell the Vatican though, they'll have to find new jobs for several hundred crusty old scholars :D
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How could 'the Father' and 'Jesus' be one and the same if 'the Father' impregnated Mary to create 'Jesus'? Again, the argument is going to dissolve into 'because he said so', so...
In the quantum world, how can an electron exist in two places at the same time?
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the trinity thing was decided long ago, back in the 4th or 5th century i think, all the church leaders had a conference, some favored the trinity others said Jesus was not god but the son of god. So they had a vote, the trinity group won, that is why you are now taught the trinity thing.
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Anyone who can worship a trinity and insist that his religion is a monotheism can believe anything... just give him time to rationalize it.
---Robert A. Heinlein
"It's so much easier to slam faith than it is to embrace it!"
JAGED
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the trinity thing was decided long ago, back in the 4th or 5th century i think, all the church leaders had a conference, some favored the trinity others said Jesus was not god but the son of god. So they had a vote, the trinity group won, that is why you are now taught the trinity thing.
More or less correct. It was believed by those participating that the Holy Spirit would not allow them to make the wrong decision. This because Jesus said, "Where 2, 3, or more, gather in my name, there I will be..."
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the trinity thing was decided long ago, back in the 4th or 5th century i think, all the church leaders had a conference, some favored the trinity others said Jesus was not god but the son of god. So they had a vote, the trinity group won, that is why you are now taught the trinity thing.
The vote only occurred after they killed off those who opposed their views. The Church made it a policy to murder Gnostic Christians.
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In the quantum world, how can an electron exist in two places at the same time?
Good question... I'm not a physicist so I could not tell you... however I'm sure the theory is backed up by mathematical equations and maybe observable evidence... not 'I read it in a 2000 year old book that has been translated through many languages and rewritten many times'.
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The vote only occurred after they killed off those who opposed their views.
I call B.S. on this one. Source? Links?
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"It's so much easier to slam faith than it is to embrace it!"
JAGED
I try not to slam anything more than my door on religious nutballs. Being an agnostic, my official position is neutral. With the occasional fit of laughter.
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I try not to slam anything more than my door on religious nutballs. Being an agnostic, my official position is neutral. With the occasional fit of laughter.
So, religious = nutballs. Ok, now I know where you're coming from. You might benefit from Pascal's Wager...
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well the truth is, and this is the truth, we will all find out one day.
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blah blah blah, I comprehend just fine. Whats your point, or maybe you have a problem conveying your thoughts!
I though perhaps your questions were serious. Obviously I was wrong. Fool me once....
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well the truth is, and this is the truth, we will all find out one day.
Not true! IF there' nothing, you'll never know...
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You might benefit from Pascal's Wager...
"Pascal's Wager (or Pascal's Gambit) is a suggestion posed by the French philosopher Blaise Pascal that even though the existence of God cannot be determined through reason, a person should "wager" as though God exists, because so living has potentially everything to gain, and certainly nothing to lose."
Nope, nothing to lose.... except basing your life around what Roman scholars decided was right centuries ago (if you decide to appease the Christian god), instead of living how you want to. But that's just a little thing. In any case it's impossible because if you have the sense to see that this is fairly logical then you would be aware enough to see that there are many 'gods' to appease and many of their opinions contradict.
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Faith is bliss? :lol
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Faith is bliss? :lol
Takes as much faith to believe there is no god as believing there is. Bliss comes to either when they stop questioning.
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Doesn't matter to me either way..
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"Pascal's Wager (or Pascal's Gambit) is a suggestion posed by the French philosopher Blaise Pascal that even though the existence of God cannot be determined through reason, a person should "wager" as though God exists, because so living has potentially everything to gain, and certainly nothing to lose."
Nope, nothing to lose.... except basing your life around what Roman scholars decided was right centuries ago, instead of living how you want to. But that's just a little thing. In any case it's impossible because if you have the sense to see that this is fairly logical then you would be aware enough to see that there are many 'gods' to appease and many of their opinions contradict.
Roman scholars is incorrect. Christian Bishops through Apostolic succession would be more correct. Besides, what's wrong with being nice to your neighbors, giving to the poor, etc.? I suppose you might favor rape and pillage so you can live how you want to? But that's just a little thing...
Pascal himself narrowed his Wager to the Abrahamic faiths alone.
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The great trouble with religion - any religion - is that a religionist, having accepted certain propositions by faith, cannot thereafter judge those propositions by evidence.
I prefer reason.
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Besides, what's wrong with being nice to your neighbors, giving to the poor, etc.?
Not a thing.. and I don't require 'the faith' to be a decent human being. Neither does anybody else capable of using his brain.
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The great trouble with religion - any religion - is that a religionist, having accepted certain propositions by faith, cannot thereafter judge those propositions by evidence.
I prefer reason.
Nothing wrong with reason. I reason that, I'd rather have it and not need it, than need it and not have it... :salute
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Roman scholars is incorrect. Christian Bishops through Apostolic succession would be more correct. Besides, what's wrong with being nice to your neighbors, giving to the poor, etc.? I suppose you might favor rape and pillage so you can live how you want to? But that's just a little thing...
My point was more along the lines of 'observing the sabbath', not eating fish on Fridays (I think that's just a Catholic thing though?), confession, not eating Pork,.... the finer points of Judaism, Christianity, and Islam.
Pascal himself narrowed his Wager to the Abrahamic faiths alone.
If you're wagering something that is illogical in the first place, why would you narrow it down? That itself is completely illogical.
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the really cool and hip people don't believe in god. the extremely cool people who think they are really really smart take every opportunity to mock religion.
They have alternate religions that we must not mock tho.
lazs
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My point was more along the lines of 'observing the sabbath', only eating fish on Fridays (I think that's just a Catholic thing though?), confession, not eating Pork,.... the finer points of Judaism, Christianity, and Islam.If you're wagering something that is illogical in the first place, why would you narrow it down? That itself is completely illogical.
The finer point of Christianity is forgiveness. Looking at forgiveness from a purely secular point of view I think we could all use a little more of this. I'll go so far as to suggest that much of mental illness is the result of a lack of forgiveness, for oneself and for others.
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the really cool and hip people don't believe in god. the extremely cool people who think they are really really smart take every opportunity to mock religion.
They have alternate religions that we must not mock tho.
lazs
like the stock market? or maybe, the welfare state? or maybe they're scientoligists.
*sigh*
Lose -lose deal, no matter what teams are on the field.
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The finer point of Christianity is forgiveness. Looking at forgiveness from a purely secular point of view I think we could all use a little more of this. I'll go so far as to suggest that much of mental illness is the result of a lack of forgiveness, for oneself and for others.
That's a basic component of human morality in any case, which would make Pascal's Wager irrelevant unless he were talking about observing the religion strictly.
You can be a good person, and exercise forgiveness without being a Christian or believing in a God at all.
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My point was more along the lines of 'observing the sabbath', not eating fish on Fridays (I think that's just a Catholic thing though?), confession, not eating Pork,.... the finer points of Judaism, Christianity, and Islam.If you're wagering something that is illogical in the first place, why would you narrow it down? That itself is completely illogical.
Don't confuse Church Doctrine with Church Tradition. Fish Friday's is an Apostolic tradition, not a law that, if broken, will land you in hell...
I can't speak for Pascal but I surmise that he concluded that Christianity was the only religion worthy of consideration.
Pascal's Wager is about the afterlife.
This guy gets it:
The finer point of Christianity is forgiveness. Looking at forgiveness from a purely secular point of view I think we could all use a little more of this. I'll go so far as to suggest that much of mental illness is the result of a lack of forgiveness, for oneself and for others.
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I forgive you.
Go with God.
Bless you.
"NEXT!"
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the really cool and hip people don't believe in god. the extremely cool people who think they are really really smart take every opportunity to mock religion.
They have alternate religions that we must not mock tho.
lazs
I'm Gnostic. At least we recognize that a lot of stuff is idol and Sun worship. Yet we still believe in a Supreme God anyways.
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You can be a good person, and exercise forgiveness without being a Christian or believing in a God at all.
Perhaps you can be "good" and exercise forgiveness without believing in God yet so many aren't and don't.
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Perhaps you can be "good" and exercise forgiveness without believing in God yet so many aren't and don't.
On the other hand, you can be "good" and exercise forgiveness while believing in God yet so many aren't and don't.
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I try not to slam anything more than my door on religious nutballs. Being an agnostic, my official position is neutral.
I forgive you.
Go with God.
Bless you.
"NEXT!"
You are FAILING
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ankle ankle ankle pwnage pwnage pwnage
Yeah, yeah we all know. Broken record.
On topic, some of the questions about the trinity and the inability to understand it- it falls under divine mystery I believe. Which is to say that humans have a limited ability to understand that which was created by an omnipotent, omniscient being.
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The great trouble with religion - any religion - is that a religionist, having accepted certain propositions by faith, cannot thereafter judge those propositions by evidence.
I prefer reason.
Explain the Platypus......
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n/t
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On the other hand, you can be "good" and exercise forgiveness while believing in God yet so many aren't and don't.
No argument from me. However, the central tenent of Christianity is forgiveness, from God, for oneself, for others. I fail to see this as the plague so many claim.
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I though perhaps your questions were serious. Obviously I was wrong. Fool me once....
my questions were serious. Do you care to answer them?
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the really cool and hip people don't believe in god. the extremely cool people who think they are really really smart take every opportunity to mock religion.
They have alternate religions that we must not mock tho.
lazs
the really, really, cool, hip really, really, really smart people throw knowlege and reason to the wind. :aok
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No argument from me. However, the central tenent of Christianity is forgiveness, from God, for oneself, for others. I fail to see this as the plague so many claim.
Based on the new testament is Christianity..
..........But most forget this and start quoting old testament
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No argument from me. However, the central tenent of Christianity is forgiveness, from God, for oneself, for others. I fail to see this as the plague so many claim.
Problem is some people who claim to be Christian use it as a excuse for their own personal agenda.
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Perhaps you can be "good" and exercise forgiveness without believing in God yet so many aren't and don't.
Seems the religion itself is a very unforgiving one in almost every faith. If you don't believe our way, you not only die, but burn...........forever!!! :aok
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Explain the Platypus......
(http://i198.photobucket.com/albums/aa223/Skyrock67/handjob.gif)
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Problem is some people who claim to be Christian use it as a excuse for their own personal agenda.
This is SSSOOOOOO TRUE :aok :aok
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Problem is some people who claim to be Christian use it as a excuse for their own personal agenda.
Truly...they will abuse it in spades...
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Seems the religion itself is a very unforgiving one in almost every faith. If you don't believe our way, you not only die, but burn...........forever!!! :aok
This is patently false. That's quite the broad brush stroke there Sky. Care to back it up with sources or links? While there are certainly those that do as you say, it's not every faith...
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This is patently false. That's quite the broad brush stroke there Sky. Care to back it up with sources or links? While there are certainly those that do as you say, it's not every faith...
But in every faith the believers are better than the lowly nonbelievers. :aok
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This is patently false. That's quite the broad brush stroke there Sky. Care to back it up with sources or links? While there are certainly those that do as you say, it's not every faith...
name me a faith that allows other faiths into their heaven.
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name me a faith that allows other faiths into their heaven.
Gnostic :aok
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Gnostic :aok
OK... how about an organized, centralized religion :)
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OK... how about an organized, centralized religion :)
NCO New Christian Order
here's their theme music:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1iUU6jTqB6k
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name me a faith that allows other faiths into their heaven.
I will give you the information you requested... shortly. You first. What about your broad statement? Nothing to back it up? Sources and links that says all Christian religions say you will burn in hell forever if you don't belong to them... I'm waiting. I'll post my information momentarily.
For you too...
OK... how about an organized, centralized religion :)
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People change their minds all the time. Shared opinions and experiences are useful to those with open minds.
:) People only believe in open minds if people change their minds to their favor, otherwise they are considered close minded.
I believe that you will only find arguements on a board like this, people are set in their ways and iof they change i doubt it is becasue of this board.
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I'm...
(http://marksautoupholstering.com/images/waiting.gif)
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Yeah, I didn't think so. Ok then, here you go SkyRock and Motherland. I still expect to see your sources and links (it'll never happen because they don't exist)...
http://en.allexperts.com/q/Eastern-Orthodox-1456/non-Orthodox-Christians-1.htm (http://en.allexperts.com/q/Eastern-Orthodox-1456/non-Orthodox-Christians-1.htm)
"Orthodoxy teaches that it fully and correctly preserves the witness as taught by Jesus Christ to His Apostles and passed down through the bishops, Holy Scripture, and the traditions and worship of the Church. The Church is the continuation of the New Israel, the people of God, and that we are saved as individuals, but also as a community.
Other Christian faiths have preserved parts of the Apostolic witness, but have either added or subtracted from it. The Orthodox Church does not put the Infinite God in a box. We do not believe that other Christians cannot be saved, but we cannot, in good faith, endorse other teachings that differ from ours. We cannot say that the teachings of the Methodist Church lead to salvation, but we will not limit God and say that Methodists cannot be saved."
Ok, your turn...
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What do you want us to post a link of? A crazy televangelist ranting about the non-Christians being burned or something?
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:) People only believe in open minds if people change their minds to their favor, otherwise they are considered close minded.
I believe that you will only find arguements on a board like this, people are set in their ways and iof they change i doubt it is becasue of this board.
I'm pretty sure it's more a lack of open admission or concession. Lazs and Hangtime (two most noticeable occurences I recall) have said they had changed their minds on non minor stuff thanks to discussions on the board.
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What do you want us to post a link of? A crazy televangelist ranting about the non-Christians being burned or something?
Not so much you Motherland. You didn't make this statment:
Seems the religion itself is a very unforgiving one in almost every faith. If you don't believe our way, you not only die, but burn...........forever!!! :aok
But my link was for you too because you did ask:
OK... how about an organized, centralized religion :)
No, I expect Sky to cough up links that say unequivocally that all Christian religions state what he said... Won't happen...
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Heh.... if you dont accept Jesus as your savior then its the lake of fire for you..unless your Catholic where you can be "prayed" out.
This broad brush is abit insane in many ways.
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SkyRock... Your
(http://farm1.static.flickr.com/101/298010188_c7a2cf04bf.jpg?v=0)
is
(http://www.hearingconcern.org.uk/pics/merchandise/badge_deaf.jpg) -ening...
Motherland, while SkyRock is looking for non-existant links, you also asked for an example and I gave you one. No comment? Are you willing to agree that SkyRock is f.o.s. on his assertion?
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my questions were serious. Do you care to answer them?
I have already.
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Christianity is nothing more than treating people the way you want to be treated. I don't think people really get that anymore. It's not about going to church every sunday, or praying. It's loving you neighbor.
I used to love my neighbour, then her Husband found out...
God loved his neighbour too. That's how it all started :lol
Christianity is not old school astrology; it's more like a main-stream cult.
It's more than just a cult ;) It's the largest most profitable enterprise in the entire world that has NO product. ;)
The same can be said for most religions.
Ok, having made that revelation, why the heck don't they shut up at night?
See the Hippy/Tree thread
err... "false idols"?
The Roman Catholics are the epitome of Pagan worship. They have dozens of gods to whom they pray. If They pray to one and they don't get what they want they keep on moving down the line until they see results :lol
The Church didn't come into existence until after Christ had been crucified and rose from the dead, then ascended into Heaven.
No, YOUR church didn't come into existence before some nutters in the middle east nailed some bloke to a tree 2000 years ago for saying how cool it would be if everyone was nice to each other. Not much else has changed there yet
The vote only occurred after they killed off those who opposed their views. The Church made it a policy to murder Gnostic Christians.
I call B.S. on this one. Source? Links?
?
Read up on your history, what did the conquering Christians do to the Druids in Britain, the Pagans in Europe and the Muslims in the Crusades?
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JAGED, so are you saying that in Christianity if an outsider, like myself being Atheist, doesn't believe in Jesus, God, or is gay, that they still will be going to heaven, and wont be going somewhere else? Because if your saying this is true then it's news to me.
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<---Atheist
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Yeah, I didn't think so. Ok then, here you go SkyRock and Motherland. I still expect to see your sources and links (it'll never happen because they don't exist)...
http://en.allexperts.com/q/Eastern-Orthodox-1456/non-Orthodox-Christians-1.htm (http://en.allexperts.com/q/Eastern-Orthodox-1456/non-Orthodox-Christians-1.htm)
"Orthodoxy teaches that it fully and correctly preserves the witness as taught by Jesus Christ to His Apostles and passed down through the bishops, Holy Scripture, and the traditions and worship of the Church. The Church is the continuation of the New Israel, the people of God, and that we are saved as individuals, but also as a community.
Other Christian faiths have preserved parts of the Apostolic witness, but have either added or subtracted from it. The Orthodox Church does not put the Infinite God in a box. We do not believe that other Christians cannot be saved, but we cannot, in good faith, endorse other teachings that differ from ours. We cannot say that the teachings of the Methodist Church lead to salvation, but we will not limit God and say that Methodists cannot be saved."
Ok, your turn...
Actually, the orthodox church said they would excommunicate my wife if she married me because my baptism was not trinitarian. :rolleyes:
...So she left. :devil
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I will give you the information you requested... shortly. You first. What about your broad statement? Nothing to back it up? Sources and links that says all Christian religions say you will burn in hell forever if you don't belong to them... I'm waiting. I'll post my information momentarily.
For you too...
Read the bible and you will know what God told christians about hell. :aok
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JAGED, so are you saying that in Christianity if an outsider, like myself being Atheist, doesn't believe in Jesus, God, or is gay, that they still will be going to heaven, and wont be going somewhere else? Because if your saying this is true then it's news to me.
What I am saying is that Orthodox Christianity doesn't judge anyone on whether they are going to heaven or not. If you belong, great (but still not home-free), otherwise it's up to God and God alone. Only God can judge. That is the stance of Orthodox Christianity.
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Read the bible and you will know what God told christians about hell. :aok
And thus the problem with Sola Scriptura...
Backtracking are we? Let me guess. You couldn't find any links? I'm not surprised.
JAGED 1
SkyRock 0
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What I am saying is that Orthodox Christianity doesn't judge anyone on whether they are going to heaven or not. If you belong, great (but still not home-free), otherwise it's up to God and God alone. Only God can judge. That is the stance of Orthodox Christianity.
way to dodge. do orthodox christians believe the bible to be the holy word?
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way to dodge. do orthodox christians believe the bible to be the holy word?
I dodged nothing. I gave the official stance. Yes, Orthodox Christians believe the Bible to be the Holy Word in light and in conjuction with Holy Tradition. That's why Sola Scriptura doesn't always work.
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all Christian religions say you will burn in hell forever if you don't belong to them...
If the christian religion is a believer in the bible is the word of god, then yes, they believe you will burn forever if you're not saved by jesus, which makes you a christian. *see the bible for details.
here's a couple:
Matthew 12:32
Mark 3:28-29
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If the christian religion is a believer in the bible is the word of god, then yes, they believe you will burn forever if you're not saved by jesus, which makes you a christian. *see the bible for details.
here's a couple:
Matthew 12:32
Mark 3:28-29
You completely ignored my post. You are relying on the phallacy of Sola Scriptura and ignoring Holy Tradition. I provided a link that refuted your assertion that all Christian denominations say you will burn, blah blah. No links from you to the contrary.
I hereby declare you...
(http://personales.ya.com/darkgotcha/blog/270907/pwned-facekick.jpg)
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You completely ignored my post. You are relying on the phallacy of Sola Scriptura and ignoring Holy Tradition. I provided a link that refuted your assertion that all Christian denominations say you will burn, blah blah. No links from you to the contrary.
Jaged, I think your link is bunk. the only link on this topic that counts is the bible. why do you continue to try and bring it into an "internet link" type of argument.
If you really want to "pwn" me, then name a christian religion who does not believe a person will go to hell if he does not get saved by christ. I am in no way an expert on religous branches, but I was a christian at one time. I have never heard of a christian religion that didn't believe a person would go to hell if they did not believe jesus was the son of God. Prove me wrong, please.
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I really don't think you pawned Skyrock there JAGED, what he was saying is that the majority of Christian faiths say that if you don't believe in God, or Jesus that your not getting into heaven, which I sure is what the majority believe.
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I really don't think you pawned Skyrock there JAGED, what he was saying is that the majority of Christian faiths say that if you don't believe in God, or Jesus that your not getting into heaven, which I sure is what the majority believe.
and I posted biblical quotes from Jesus that said if you deny God you burn. What else does he want?
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Jaged, I think your link is bunk. the only link on this topic that counts is the bible. why do you continue to try and bring it into an "internet link" type of argument.
If you really want to "pwn" me, then name a christian religion who does not believe a person will go to hell if he does not get saved by christ. I am in no way an expert on religous branches, but I was a christian at one time. I have never heard of a christian religion that didn't believe a person would go to hell if they did not believe jesus was the son of God. Prove me wrong, please.
I will do so. In the mean time your OP simply referred to "Christianity, is it..." so I don't know why now you state that the only "topic that counts is the bible." In case your are not familiar with Holy Tradition:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sacred_Tradition (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sacred_Tradition)
"The term refers to belief that these churches hold, that the "deposit of faith" (Latin: depositum fidei) was communicated by Jesus Christ to his first followers, and has been passed down (Latin tradere, to hand over or hand down) through succeeding generations of those followers (apostolic succession), represented by the church. The church as a community, therefore, was the initial receiver, and has remained the guardian and codifier, of Sacred Tradition.
The term "deposit of faith" refers to the entirety of Jesus Christ's divine revelation, and is passed forward to successive generations in two different forms, Sacred Scripture (the Bible) and Sacred Tradition (apostolic succession).
In the theology of these churches, Sacred Scripture, is the written part of this larger tradition, recording (albeit sometimes through the work of individual authors) the community's experience of God or more specifically of Jesus Christ. Hence the Bible must be interpreted within the context of Sacred Tradition and within the community of the church."
So, for the Orthodox Church, Sola Scriptura doesn't cut it.
I will get you your link and when I do, I hope you will agree that you have been "pwned" but I doubt it.
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Jaged, I think your link is bunk. the only link on this topic that counts is the bible. why do you continue to try and bring it into an "internet link" type of argument.
If you really want to "pwn" me, then name a christian religion who does not believe a person will go to hell if he does not get saved by christ. I am in no way an expert on religous branches, but I was a christian at one time. I have never heard of a christian religion that didn't believe a person would go to hell if they did not believe jesus was the son of God. Prove me wrong, please.
Jehovah's Witnesses.
You said one. That is one I know of.
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Jehovah's Witnesses.
You said one. That is one I know of.
thanks.
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I really don't think you pawned Skyrock there JAGED, what he was saying is that the majority of Christian faiths say that if you don't believe in God, or Jesus that your not getting into heaven, which I sure is what the majority believe.
He said, "name one that doesn't." I did, but he didn't like the link so I'll find another one. No links offered from him though and he keeps quoting scripture when I keep saying Sola Scriptura is not the Orthodox way...
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I will do so. In the mean time your OP simply referred to "Christianity, is it..." so I don't know why now you state that the only "topic that counts is the bible." In case your are not familiar with Holy Tradition:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sacred_Tradition (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sacred_Tradition)
"The term refers to belief that these churches hold, that the "deposit of faith" (Latin: depositum fidei) was communicated by Jesus Christ to his first followers, and has been passed down (Latin tradere, to hand over or hand down) through succeeding generations of those followers (apostolic succession), represented by the church. The church as a community, therefore, was the initial receiver, and has remained the guardian and codifier, of Sacred Tradition.
The term "deposit of faith" refers to the entirety of Jesus Christ's divine revelation, and is passed forward to successive generations in two different forms, Sacred Scripture (the Bible) and Sacred Tradition (apostolic succession).
In the theology of these churches, Sacred Scripture, is the written part of this larger tradition, recording (albeit sometimes through the work of individual authors) the community's experience of God or more specifically of Jesus Christ. Hence the Bible must be interpreted within the context of Sacred Tradition and within the community of the church."
So, for the Orthodox Church, Sola Scriptura doesn't cut it.
I will get you your link and when I do, I hope you will agree that you have been "pwned" but I doubt it.
ess had no problem naming one, you on the other hand want to talk about tradition. Do christians believe that one will not go to hell if they dont believe jesus is the son of God? there, that should be easy.
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He said, "name one that doesn't." I did, but he didn't like the link so I'll find another one. No links offered from him though and he keeps quoting scripture when I keep saying Sola Scriptura is not the Orthodox way...
OK, let me be clear here, do you think orthodox christians believe people that refute jesus will burn in hell?
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I dodged nothing. I gave the official stance. Yes, Orthodox Christians believe the Bible to be the Holy Word in light and in conjuction with Holy Tradition. That's why Sola Scriptura doesn't always work. "JAGED"
If your talking about a historic view, I would disagree with you. Scriptural revelation of Christian doctrine is only found within the books of the Bible, and any practice or tradition consistent with faithful doctrine follow from examples out of scripture. So it is solely scripture for a correct theology and practice.
and I posted biblical quotes from Jesus that said if you deny God you burn. What else does he want?'Skyrock"
Well said and correct, right out of scripture.
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Jehovah's Witnesses.
You said one. That is one I know of.
Not to sure about that one, my sister and her family have been practicing Jehovah Witnesses for over 10 years now and I've gone with her several times to the Kingdom Hall and I don't remember her ever saying that you still goto heaven even if you don't believe in God or Jesus.
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OK, let me be clear here, do you think orthodox christians believe people that refute jesus will burn in hell?
If I might say toss out orthodox label, but if your looking for the biblical answer to those who deny Jesus as their savior to be more specific. Hell is the only thing for them.
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Hey Skyrock what specifically from Christian doctrine do you equate with astrology?
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OK, let me be clear here, do you think orthodox christians believe people that refute jesus will burn in hell?
SkyRock,
I can only tell you what Jesus say's concerning getting into Heaven. I can also tell you I believe the Bible completely to be true.
John 5:24."I tell you the truth, whoever hears my word and believes him who sent me has eternal life and will not be condemned; he has crossed over from death to life.
Lambo
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Not to sure about that one, my sister and her family have been practicing Jehovah Witnesses for over 10 years now and I've gone with her several times to the Kingdom Hall and I don't remember her ever saying that you still goto heaven even if you don't believe in God or Jesus.
That wasn't the question. Paraphrasing what I understood to be Skyrock's questions:
1. Will you "burn in Hell" as Christiandom defines it if you deny God. No, because Skyrock's frame of reference is an "eternal torment" type of Hell. JW believe in a merciful and loving God, not one of vengeance. They would point out that "Hell" is the English equivalent of "Hades" or "Sheol", which is the common grave of mankind, not a place of torment. Therefore, being thrown into the Lake of Fire means utter destruction, and not eternal torment.
2. That not believing Jesus is the Son of God would buy you said defined Hell. Already mostly answered in #1, but in addition, the Bible refers in Revelation to the the Resurrection of "the righteous and the unrighteous." Those who were "unrighteous" will be given another chance to accept God's authority over mankind, with Jesus at the head of the Kingdom. Those who accept it will be given everlasting life. Those who reject it will be given the second death / oblivion.
This is how they differ in major ways from the majority of Christiandom. They find no Bible basis for a Trinity, do not accept the concept of Hell as a place of everlasting torment, and do not believe your "soul goes to Heaven" when you die, but rather you lie asleep in death until the time of the Resurrection.
Which is why I find your claim to have family who are practicing Jehovah's Witnesses to be a bit puzzling -- if you do, then you should know that they do not look for a Heavenly existence at all, but rather the prospect of everlasting life on a paradise Earth.
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SD67, I actually have read my history and have a couple of degrees in that field. There were no "conquering Christians" in Britain. The power of the Druids in western Europe and Britain was destroyed in a process begun during the time of the Roman Republic and finished while Christians were still being persecuted in the Colisseum. The Caesars destroyed the Druids.
The pagans of northern Europe, mainly of ancient germanic culture, were also either destroyed by the Romans or, as in the case of the Visigoths, conquered Rome itself. Many of these tribes migrated into the Empire seeking a haven from the ravages of the Huns. The wars between the Empire and these pagans has never been portrayed by historians as a "religious struggle."
The Byzantine Empire lived in relative peace with the peoples of the Middle East until the rise of militant Islam. The Byzantines were a bulwark against the intrusion of the muslims into Europe. After winning the Battle of Manzikert, the Turks closed the pilgrim roads to Palestine and repressed the Christian Armenians. The population of the Armenian capital of Ani was savagely massacred.
Four hundred years earlier, during the intial surge of militant Islam during the time of Muhammad, the Arabs had annihilated the Christian parts of Syria, Egypt, and North Africa, which had had a very prosperous past. The destruction of the great Christian basilicas in ALexandria, Hippo, Antioch, and Jerusalem date from this time of conquest.
The lot of the Christians who did not flee varied in different places and times; sometimes agreements between rulers such as Charlemagne and the Caliph Harun al-Rashid, made it easier and more pleasant. At other times these agreements were flouted in the cruellest and most deplorable way, as when the Caliph Hakim, at the beginning of the eleventh century for no apparent reason ordered the destruction of the Holy Sepulchre and began to harry and massacre Christians and Jews everywhere. (Source: The Crusades, by Regine Pernoud.)
By contrast, the "Christian conquest" of Europe was far more peaceful, if not perfectly so.
It was only after the Battle of Manzikert that the Byzantines, fearing the renewal of the Muslim onslaught, appealed to the Christian kingdoms of the west for aid. Revisionist history notwithstanding, the Crusades that resulted were not an unprovoked attack against a peaceful and enlightened Muslim society.
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Christianity says "Love your enemy..Hate their sins."
Well i don't love my enemies..I hate them.Don't be loving my enemies either.Go find your own to love.
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just give them your gold, they'll save your soul ;)
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Infant Damnation.
Fundamentalist Christians are fond of quoting John 3:5 which states Jesus answered: Amen, amen, I say to thee, unless a man be born again of water and the Holy Ghost, he cannot enter into the kingdom of God. This raises the question of infants who, whilst not aborted, have not been baptized. For outsiders, especially those who have held a new born infant in their arms, it seems a trifle harsh that their souls are condemned to eternal damnation simply because their parents are godless commies.
Why would a rational God expect his believers to pick the ONE true religion by faith? Next, when it comes to the disgusting behavior of many of the alleged 'holy men' of the various faiths, historically and in the present tense, I'm confident that I've been relived of any intellectual obligation to take the stuff seriously. No amount of sanctimonious rationalization can make such disgusting behavior anything but pathological.
Lastly, I'm dubious about the existence of God in the traditional sense as commonly expounded by the organized faiths.. however, I do not 'disbelieve' as a faith in itself.. That's an atheist. As an agnostic, and raised in the christian faith, I remain respectful of the comfort and guidance given by the teachings of Christianity to my fellow walkers on this path I'm on; and don't think less of them for their indulgence in the comfort their beliefs provide them in their times of need. There's plenty of stuff that happens on this planet that defies explanation... however, I'm reluctant to attribute these things to God based on the authority of the Church's say-so alone.
As I said before.. The great trouble with religion - any religion - is that a religionist, having accepted certain propositions by faith, cannot thereafter judge those propositions by evidence.
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Hey Skyrock what specifically from Christian doctrine do you equate with astrology?
Well, back in the day, I had a friend who used to tell me that old egyption sun worship morphed into what we now know as christianity. He could never explain it to me thoroughly enough for my satisfaction.
Here recently, I was turned on to zeitgeist which explains much better than I could.
part one:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BNf-P_5u_Hw
part two:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qc-mrJf45Hg
part three:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IjAegPhQOUg
That this is a very controversial piece should go without saying. It a "no holds barred", in your face movie if you are a christian, you won't like it.
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Is (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Isis) Ra (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ra) El (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/El_(god)) = Israel (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Israel)
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Is (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Isis) Ra (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ra) El (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/El_(god)) = Israel (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Israel)
:aok
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:aok
It doesn't change the fact that I believe in a Supreme God. It only helps show how The Church tries to hide the foundation of its existence.
P.S. When Jesus died the Temple curtain tore to show that man no longer needed to go through a temple/church to speak with God.
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No, YOUR church didn't come into existence before some nutters in the middle east nailed some bloke to a tree 2000 years ago for saying how cool it would be if everyone was nice to each other. Not much else has changed there yet
My statement stands, this thread isn't about religions other than Christianity.
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Is (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Isis) Ra (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ra) El (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/El_(god)) = Israel (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Israel)
try again in hebrew.
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Jaged, I think your link is bunk. the only link on this topic that counts is the bible. why do you continue to try and bring it into an "internet link" type of argument.
If you really want to "pwn" me, then name a christian religion who does not believe a person will go to hell if he does not get saved by christ. I am in no way an expert on religous branches, but I was a christian at one time. I have never heard of a christian religion that didn't believe a person would go to hell if they did not believe jesus was the son of God. Prove me wrong, please.
Ok SkyRock, you asked for it and here it is. This link is from the official Greek Orthodox Church website. If you think this link is "bunk" then I can be of no more assistance.
http://www.goarch.org/en/ourfaith/articles/article8089.asp (http://www.goarch.org/en/ourfaith/articles/article8089.asp)
There's a lot of reading there, but here are some of the highlights:
"The pages that follow will explore a view of non-Chnistian religions from an Orthodox Christian perspective. This view holds firmly to the centrality of Christ, a doctrine which is not negotiable, yet acknowledges that salvation can be found outside Christianity."
"Orthodox emphasis on the creation of the human person in the image and likeness of God (Genesis 1:26) means that the personhood of each human being is indelibly imprinted with God's image. And it follows that, carrying God's image, each person has access to revelation and salvation.[7] God is ever present - at all times, in all places and in all things. He did not create man to abandon him but to guide him to redemption, to perfection. God's purpose is the salvation and glorification of man."
"It cannot be assumed that salvation is denied non-Christians living in true piety and according to natural law by the God who "is love" -1 John 4:8-, In his justice and mercy God will judge them worthy even though they are outside the true Church."
So, there you have it... Can you say pwned, or are you going to claim a bunk link again?
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Well, back in the day, I had a friend who used to tell me that old egyption sun worship morphed into what we now know as christianity. He could never explain it to me thoroughly enough for my satisfaction.
Here recently, I was turned on to zeitgeist which explains much better than I could.
part one:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BNf-P_5u_Hw
part two:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qc-mrJf45Hg
part three:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IjAegPhQOUg
That this is a very controversial piece should go without saying. It a "no holds barred", in your face movie if you are a christian, you won't like it.
Well I got as far as 7 1/2 min of part 1. They should of used fact check.com. The date Dec. 25th they sayas Jesus birth and the 3 stars called 3 kings with the star of the east? The 25th date is a catholic invention(and I can explain that to be specific). The mention of 3 kings is also absent from the bible but wise men from the east is mentioned, and far as the star of the east thats irrelevant. Broad generalities are prolific so far but of this spirit of the age(zietgeist). I give it another shot to see what there talking about
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Jaged.. seems your spoiling for a fight.
Gonna beat me with your cross?
Explain Infant Damnation.
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Jaged.. seems your spoiling for a fight.
Gonna beat me with your cross?
Explain Infant Damnation.
From the Orthodox perspective, there is no such thing. That's why the Orthodox split with the Roman Catholics some 1000 years ago. While Orthodoxy has maintained the faith of the seven ecumenical councils, the Roman Catholics added all sorts of innovations such as tampering with the Creed, Papal infallibility, Purgatory, Limbo, Original Sin, and I could go on.
For the Orthodox, the Catholics have strayed somewhat from the Truth. There is no Infant Damnation.
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Ah! So, 'orthodoxy' is the only true faith?
Are you, with a straight face, attempting to convince an agnostic (or a Catholic, or a Lutheran, or any other christian educated human) that yours is the one 'true faith'?
Proof, please!
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For the Orthodox, the Catholics have strayed somewhat from the Truth.
Source on said Truth? :P
dang, beat me to it..
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Ah! So, 'orthodoxy' is the only true faith?
Are you, with a straight face, attempting to convince an agnostic (or a Catholic, or a Lutheran, or any other christian educated human) that yours is the one 'true faith'?
Proof, please!
Don't put words in my mouth as you know as well as I that I never said any such thing; however, the Eastern Orthodox Church certainly believes that is the case, not only for the reasons I mentioned, but also due to the fact that, as an Apostolic Church, they can trace their beginnings to Pentecost. The Roman Catholics and the Oriental Orthodox can make the same claim as all of these were part of that same church founded at Pentecost.
All forms of Protestanism trace their origins to Martin Luther, The Mormons to Joseph Smith, The Jehovah's to their founder, Scientology to Hubbard, etc.
Their claim is much more reasonable than most... for whatever that is worth to you. Look it up yourself!
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Source on said Truth? :P
dang, beat me to it..
As defined by the results of the seven ecumenical councils of the undivided early Church... Google it!
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Better yet, type what the gist of that is...
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Don't put words in my mouth as you know as well as I that I never said any such thing; however, the Eastern Orthodox Church certainly believes that is the case, not only for the reasons I mentioned, but also due to the fact that, as an Apostolic Church, they can trace their beginnings to Pentecost. The Roman Catholics and the Oriental Orthodox can make the same claim as all of these were part of that same church founded at Pentecost.
All forms of Protestanism trace their origins to Martin Luther, The Mormons to Joseph Smith, The Jehovah's to their founder, Scientology to Hubbard, etc.
Their claim is much more reasonable than most... for whatever that is worth to you. Look it up yourself!
So.. rather than answering the Infant Damnation question, you sidestep and present a branch of Christianity that does not hold that belief. 'They have strayed from the 'Truth''. Then when challenged on proving that 'orthodoxy' is the one True Faith, you dodge again, toss the Pentecosts in front of the bus and apply first aid after the wreck with 'Their claim is much more reasonable than most'.
LOL!
As always, discussing religion with religionists is like searching in a dark cellar at midnight for a black cat that isn't there.
Good show tho, I thank you for playing; and you folks at home, stay tuned for the next episode of 'who's god is god, the christian chronicles'.
:aok
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Well, back in the day, I had a friend who used to tell me that old egyption sun worship morphed into what we now know as christianity. He could never explain it to me thoroughly enough for my satisfaction.
Here recently, I was turned on to zeitgeist which explains much better than I could.
part one:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BNf-P_5u_Hw
part two:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qc-mrJf45Hg
part three:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IjAegPhQOUg
That this is a very controversial piece should go without saying. It a "no holds barred", in your face movie if you are a christian, you won't like it.
Well watched the rest, and if their finale blow against Christianity is that Jesus never lived as a historical person. Apart from biblical sources, you might for yourself look into Tacitus, Pliny the Younger or even Celsus. Also Flavius Josephus a Jewish historian born 37Anno Domini or Common Era wrote of the person of Jesus. If you can find an impartial credible source
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So.. rather than answering the Infant Damnation question, you sidestep and present a branch of Christianity that does not hold that belief. 'They have strayed from the 'Truth''. Then when challenged on proving that 'orthodoxy' is the one True Faith, you dodge again, toss the Pentecosts in front of the bus and apply first aid after the wreck with 'Their claim is much more reasonable than most'.
LOL!
As always, discussing religion with religionists is like searching in a dark cellar at midnight for a black cat that isn't there.
Good show tho, I thank you for playing; and you folks at home, stay tuned for the next episode of 'who's god is god, the christian chronicles'.
:aok
Ah, the cynical agnostic dismisses the evidence with meandering thoughts. I dodged and sidestepped nothing. If you were looking for the origins of something wouldn't you go to the source? The facts are:
The Orthodox Catholic Church was undivided for the first 1000 years after Pentecost. During that time, seven ecumenical councils were held and decisions were made by the undivided Church about matters of faith. When the Catholic contigent started making it's own decisions without the consent of the undivided Church, it became divided, with the Orthodox contigent not adding or subtracting from the decisions of the undivided Church from then to the present, while the Catholic contingent, well, I've already stated some of those issues.
I you want to know about Infant Damnation, you'll have to ask a Catholic.
I would think you would be thrilled that there's an old religion out there that doesn't subscribe to such lunacy... Oh well...
Let the cynicism continue...
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try again in hebrew.
where do you think Hebrew came from?
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Jaged.. seems your spoiling for a fight.
Gonna beat me with your cross?
Explain Infant Damnation.
The Biblical doctrine is that mankind is sinful at conception. That is a very brief statement drawn from the original command given to Adam. He failed and as mankinds first parent and representative, we as his prodigy inherited a fallen state as it is sometimes called. It deals with the biblical teaching of one's nature or inclinations toward namely sin. It speaks to man's inability to no longer worship or obey or whatever else you want to call it as we should regardless of one's age.
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where do you think Hebrew came from?
good dodge. if you are going to make connections like that, do it in a relevant language.
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The Biblical doctrine is that mankind is sinful at conception. That is a very brief statement drawn from the original command given to Adam. He failed and as mankinds first parent and representative, we as his prodigy inherited a fallen state as it is sometimes called. It deals with the biblical teaching of one's nature or inclinations toward namely sin. It speaks to man's inability to no longer worship or obey or whatever else you want to call it as we should regardless of one's age.
That's only one interpretation. Another holds that mankind has inheritied only the consequences of Adams failure, namely mortality and death.
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Ok SkyRock, you asked for it and here it is. This link is from the official Greek Orthodox Church website. If you think this link is "bunk" then I can be of no more assistance.
http://www.goarch.org/en/ourfaith/articles/article8089.asp (http://www.goarch.org/en/ourfaith/articles/article8089.asp)
There's a lot of reading there, but here are some of the highlights:
"The pages that follow will explore a view of non-Chnistian religions from an Orthodox Christian perspective. This view holds firmly to the centrality of Christ, a doctrine which is not negotiable, yet acknowledges that salvation can be found outside Christianity."
"Orthodox emphasis on the creation of the human person in the image and likeness of God (Genesis 1:26) means that the personhood of each human being is indelibly imprinted with God's image. And it follows that, carrying God's image, each person has access to revelation and salvation.[7] God is ever present - at all times, in all places and in all things. He did not create man to abandon him but to guide him to redemption, to perfection. God's purpose is the salvation and glorification of man."
"It cannot be assumed that salvation is denied non-Christians living in true piety and according to natural law by the God who "is love" -1 John 4:8-, In his justice and mercy God will judge them worthy even though they are outside the true Church."
So, there you have it... Can you say pwned, or are you going to claim a bunk link again?
Post a quote where the christian doctrine states that a man who denies God's existence does not burn in hell. It is really that simple.
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Ah, the cynical agnostic dismisses the evidence with meandering thoughts.
What evidence?
No cat?
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good dodge. if you are going to make connections like that, do it in a relevant language.
The Hebrews were wise enough to learn the language of the land they were living in. They had more influence in the past then people are willing to give them credit for.
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Well I got as far as 7 1/2 min of part 1. They should of used fact check.com. The date Dec. 25th they sayas Jesus birth and the 3 stars called 3 kings with the star of the east? The 25th date is a catholic invention(and I can explain that to be specific). The mention of 3 kings is also absent from the bible but wise men from the east is mentioned, and far as the star of the east thats irrelevant. Broad generalities are prolific so far but of this spirit of the age(zietgeist). I give it another shot to see what there talking about
yeah, the 25th is in there to relate christianity to many other religions that practice the same general time frame, the movie tries to hard to target recent christian traditions in some parts. It's a good view though, except for I don't like the "olbermanesque" qualities of some parts.
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So.. rather than answering the Infant Damnation question, you sidestep and present a branch of Christianity that does not hold that belief. 'They have strayed from the 'Truth''. Then when challenged on proving that 'orthodoxy' is the one True Faith, you dodge again, toss the Pentecosts in front of the bus and apply first aid after the wreck with 'Their claim is much more reasonable than most'.
LOL!
As always, discussing religion with religionists is like searching in a dark cellar at midnight for a black cat that isn't there.
Good show tho, I thank you for playing; and you folks at home, stay tuned for the next episode of 'who's god is god, the christian chronicles'.
:aok
Actually, he did answer the question: He believes Infant Damnation is a construct of the Catholic Church and not Biblically based. So perhaps he should turn it on you -- why do you believe Infant Damnation is a central tenant of those who consider the Bible to be truth? Because a Catholic told you so? Then make the Catholic prove that Infant Damnation is scripturally based.
That is the problem with trying to argue about "Christianity" in a very general sense vs. debating whether the Catholics or Baptists or <insert whoever here> is actually basing their teachings on the Bible. When you bring up something that is central to Catholics, of course an Orthodox or Protestant will have trouble defending it because it is not necessarily part of Orthodox or Protestant teachings.
Why don't I just ask you why Republicans believe in Abortion on Demand for Everyone. I would bet you would have a tough time with that one, wouldn't you -- because they don't believe in that.
The best any of them can do is point to a verse in the Bible. But then, I suspect you and those like you would laugh at them for following an old moldy book in the first place, right?
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Better yet, type what the gist of that is...
bingo, hell I'm not a religous scholar, I need explanations. hee hee :D
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Well watched the rest, and if their finale blow against Christianity is that Jesus never lived as a historical person. Apart from biblical sources, you might for yourself look into Tacitus, Pliny the Younger or even Celsus. Also Flavius Josephus a Jewish historian born 37Anno Domini or Common Era wrote of the person of Jesus. If you can find an impartial credible source
yeah, I just posted on your first post, but it's as close to an explanation as many care to delve into. Sorry.
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good dodge. if you are going to make connections like that, do it in a relevant language.
I didn't, Xargos did, but I'd like to see you two discuss it! :aok
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So, we go from this request:
If you really want to "pwn" me, then name a christian religion who does not believe a person will go to hell if he does not get saved by christ.
which I satisfied, to this one:
Post a quote where the christian doctrine states that a man who denies God's existence does not burn in hell. It is really that simple.
It's not enough to name a Christian religion, now you want a Christrian doctrine.
You can't keep redefining your criteria. I answered your first question and you can't refute it so you change the criteria.
Game over!
P.S. And you never did provide any links of your own...
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Actually, he did answer the question: He believes Infant Damnation is a construct of the Catholic Church and not Biblically based. So perhaps he should turn it on you -- why do you believe Infant Damnation is a central tenant of those who consider the Bible to be truth? Because a Catholic told you so? Then make the Catholic prove that Infant Damnation is scripturally based.
That is the problem with trying to argue about "Christianity" in a very general sense vs. debating whether the Catholics or Baptists or <insert whoever here> is actually basing their teachings on the Bible. When you bring up something that is central to Catholics, of course an Orthodox or Protestant will have trouble defending it because it is not necessarily part of Orthodox or Protestant teachings.
Why don't I just ask you why Republicans believe in Abortion on Demand for Everyone. I would bet you would have a tough time with that one, wouldn't you -- because they don't believe in that.
The best any of them can do is point to a verse in the Bible. But then, I suspect you and those like you would laugh at them for following an old moldy book in the first place, right?
E25, I don't normally participate in the religious threads in here, but since I posted it, I am going to say, I have enjoyed/learned, more in this thread than most I come across. Thanks gentlemen, for the studies. Continue!
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So, we go from this request:
which I satisfied, to this one:
It's not enough to name a Christian religion, now you want a Christrian doctrine.
You can't keep redefining your criteria. I answered your first question and you can't refute it so you change the criteria.
Game over!
What a waste you're turning out to be, part of debating is teaching, you're more concerned in the celebrating of the victory rather than the satisfaction of not only beating your opponent but enlightening him. "Game over" and "Pwnt" just don't seem to fit in here, but alas, if you want to be an arsehat, it's your perogative.....oooh, theres a related word. :devil
Besides, I read what you wrote, but I haven't studied it enough to know you're right, but just for friks sake, please state that Orthodox do not believe you go to hell if you deny God exists.....just for the record! :aok
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The only ones who will be going to Hell are those who learned the truth then turned their backs on it. I seriously doubt there are many people throughout history that really ever learned the truth.
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Jaged, I thought we were talking about Christianity... and who's christian god is THE christian god.. if there is a 'christian 'god..
if so...
Catholic 1,050,000,000 Orthodox/Eastern Christian 240,000,000 African indigenous sects (AICs) 110,000,000 Pentecostal 105,000,000 Reformed/Presbyterian/Congregational/United 75,000,000 Anglican 73,000,000 Baptist 70,000,000 Methodist 70,000,000 Lutheran 64,000,000 Jehovah's Witnesses 14,800,000 Adventist 12,000,000 Latter Day Saints 12,500,000 Apostolic/New Apostolic 10,000,000 Stone-Campbell ("Restoration Movement") 5,400,000 New Thought (Unity, Christian Science, etc.) 1,500,000 Brethren (incl. Plymouth) 1,500,000 Mennonite 1,250,000 Friends (Quakers) 300,000
Looks to me like the Catholics have it. By definition of numbers... they must be the one TRUE faith. I mean, a billion 'n a half of 'em can't be wrong. right?
Your pleas for orthodoxy have been rejected by the pope.
On to infant damnation... best explanation I ever heard:
There is an old, old story about a theologian who was asked to reconcile the Doctrine of Divine Mercy with the doctrine of infant damnation. 'The Almighty,' he explained, 'finds it necessary to do things in His official and public capacity which in His private and personal capacity He deplores.
*sigh*
Now, back to the threads topic question... who's got the cat?
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The Biblical doctrine is that mankind is sinful at conception. That is a very brief statement drawn from the original command given to Adam. He failed and as mankinds first parent and representative, we as his prodigy inherited a fallen state as it is sometimes called. It deals with the biblical teaching of one's nature or inclinations toward namely sin. It speaks to man's inability to no longer worship or obey or whatever else you want to call it as we should regardless of one's age.
Some interpet this to believe that man is born pure and then turned (as Adam) sinfull. Some look at this as being story of a boy becoming a man. Children are pure, whereas man has partaken of the forbidden fruit. Also peoples of diminished mental capacity are considered children.
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That's only one interpretation. Another holds that mankind has inheritied only the consequences of Adams failure, namely mortality and death.
The Biblical doctrine is that mankind is sinful at conception. That is a very brief statement drawn from the original command given to Adam. He failed and as mankinds first parent and representative, we as his prodigy inherited a fallen state as it is sometimes called. It deals with the biblical teaching of one's nature or inclinations toward namely sin. It speaks to man's inability to no longer worship or obey or whatever else you want to call it as we should regardless of one's age.
Actually, it's all of this. We inherited Adam and Eve's sinful nature and along with the sinful nature came mortality and spiritual death. Each of us is born with a sinful nature. Children display this sinful nature at a very early age. Ever hear the term *terrible twos*? It's a term that refers to a child's rebellious behavior that generally happens around the age of two. The child is pushing his/her limits to see just what he/she can/cannot get away with. Children will begin lying w/o someone teaching them what a lie is, they will attempt to hide their wrong doing even before they learn that they will get in trouble for specific behaviors. This is evidence of our sinful nature.
I'll give an example of a child hiding his wrong doing even before he learns that he will get in trouble.
When my son was 2 yrs old, that Christmas my (ex)wife had wrapped a crap load of presents and then gone to bed. My son woke up before us and proceeded to open presents until he found one he liked. He tried to hide the wrapping paper by shoving it under/behind furniture and under the area rug. (Like we weren't going to notice the bulges in the rug or see the other presents that had been opened. :rofl ) Even though this situation had never come up for him previously, he understood that what he was doing was wrong. The proof in that is that he tried to hide the evidence of his actions.
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The only ones who will be going to Hell are those who learned the truth then turned their backs on it. I seriously doubt there are many people throughout history that really ever learned the truth.
That is a Gnostic view that is unsupported by Biblical texts. :)
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There is an old, old story about a theologian who was asked to reconcile the Doctrine of Divine Mercy with the doctrine of infant damnation. 'The Almighty,' he explained, 'finds it necessary to do things in His official and public capacity which in His private and personal capacity He deplores.
I think that is a very good explanation that anyone should be able to understand.
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Yah.. but Elfie.. think of the irony.. He is playing politics!
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That is a Gnostic view that is unsupported by Biblical texts. :)
The Church made sure that certain books/texts were forbidden from the bible so as to solidify their power over the masses. They would kill those who opposed them.
P.S. I don't get my information from the internet when it comes to religion, so it may take me some time to find links to that.
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Christians! Practicing Genocide?
No way!
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Christians! Practicing Genocide?
No way!
They're not Christians, only power hungry thugs.
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but, but, but..... they're Christians!
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but, but, but..... they're Christians!
CINOs. :D
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What a waste you're turning out to be, part of debating is teaching, you're more concerned in the celebrating of the victory rather than the satisfaction of not only beating your opponent but enlightening him. "Game over" and "Pwnt" just don't seem to fit in here, but alas, if you want to be an arsehat, it's your perogative.....oooh, theres a related word. :devil
Besides, I read what you wrote, but I haven't studied it enough to know you're right, but just for friks sake, please state that Orthodox do not believe you go to hell if you deny God exists.....just for the record! :aok
If I thought you had wanted learn something I might have taken a different tone. Nothing, I mean nothing in your prior posts can be misconstrued for you requesting some eduction via debate. You make wild claims that you can't back up and when you ask for back up to my claims, you ignore them. Having said that, if I had seen your post thanking the community for your education, I might have changed my tune then, but I didn't see it.
You can think I'm a azhat all you want, but you're the azhat for conducting this debate the way you did.
In the end, I'm glad you learned something... :salute
As for your request, I can only say that the Orthodox consider that it's possible for such a person not to go hell.
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CINOs. :D
Musta been. :aok
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Quote from: SkyRock on Today at 10:08:06 AM
Where does God live? Who did GOd mate with to have a son? Is there more than one God where God lives?
1. According to tradition, somewhere beyond the upper atmosphere. Admittedly, that does not narrow it down much...
As 99.99......9999.....999999... .99% of the volume of the universe is 'somewhere beyond the upper atmosphere', and God lives everywhere, then saying God lives above the clouds is 99.99......9999.....999999... .99% correct.
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Jaged, I thought we were talking about Christianity... and who's christian god is THE christian god.. if there is a 'christian 'god..
if so...
Catholic 1,050,000,000 Orthodox/Eastern Christian 240,000,000 African indigenous sects (AICs) 110,000,000 Pentecostal 105,000,000 Reformed/Presbyterian/Congregational/United 75,000,000 Anglican 73,000,000 Baptist 70,000,000 Methodist 70,000,000 Lutheran 64,000,000 Jehovah's Witnesses 14,800,000 Adventist 12,000,000 Latter Day Saints 12,500,000 Apostolic/New Apostolic 10,000,000 Stone-Campbell ("Restoration Movement") 5,400,000 New Thought (Unity, Christian Science, etc.) 1,500,000 Brethren (incl. Plymouth) 1,500,000 Mennonite 1,250,000 Friends (Quakers) 300,000
Looks to me like the Catholics have it. By definition of numbers... they must be the one TRUE faith. I mean, a billion 'n a half of 'em can't be wrong. right?
Your pleas for orthodoxy have been rejected by the pope.
On to infant damnation... best explanation I ever heard:
There is an old, old story about a theologian who was asked to reconcile the Doctrine of Divine Mercy with the doctrine of infant damnation. 'The Almighty,' he explained, 'finds it necessary to do things in His official and public capacity which in His private and personal capacity He deplores.
*sigh*
Now, back to the threads topic question... who's got the cat?
Might doesn't make right! Just ask the Democrats when they won the popular vote but lost the election... :devil
"Your pleas for orthodoxy have been rejected by the pope. " Nice one... :rofl :rofl :rofl
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The greatest truths twisted by organised religion for their own benefit.
1) Hell is here and now. If we stuff it up we are doomed to repeat it.
2) We are all within ourselves God. Our higher consciousness defines us and the world we live in and collectively we shape the universe.
3) When we "die" we are indeed judged only it will be YOU passing judgement on your own destiny.
4) Life has nothing to do with right and wrong, good or evil. It is an experience and it is how you interpret and reflect that experience that defines your existence.
An organisation based around a zombie saviour that serves only itself and it's own interests has absolutely nothing to do with any of it.
Let the wailing and gnashing of teeth begin.
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Yah.. but Elfie.. think of the irony.. He is playing politics!
Not politics....
As a Just God, he cannot make exceptions for infants simply because they are infants. We are all guilty, even the newborn. A judge that lets one thief go free but jails the next, is that judge handing out justice equally? Of course not.
Rom 3:23 for all have sinned, and fall short of the glory of God;
Notice it doesn't say only adults and adolescents, it says for all have sinned.
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The Church made sure that certain books/texts were forbidden from the bible so as to solidify their power over the masses. They would kill those who opposed them.
P.S. I don't get my information from the internet when it comes to religion, so it may take me some time to find links to that.
The Gnostic texts were excluded from the Bible, that is true. They were excluded because their teachings were not consistent with the books that were included within the Bible as we know it.
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Might doesn't make right! Just ask the Democrats when they won the popular vote but lost the election... :devil
"Your pleas for orthodoxy have been rejected by the pope. " Nice one... :rofl :rofl :rofl
Hey, not so long ago, you'd be put to the 'question' just for breathing. Let alone asking.
and, I think there's extra innings in purgatory for being a democrat, too.
;)
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put to the 'question'
heh.....have you by chance read Robert Jordan's Wheel of Time series of books? :D
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Not politics....
As a Just God, he cannot make exceptions for infants simply because they are infants. We are all guilty, even the newborn. A judge that lets one thief go free but jails the next, is that judge handing out justice equally? Of course not.
Notice it doesn't say only adults and adolescents, it says for all have sinned.
Elfie, wouldn't the world be a better place if this didn't have to be?
I submit the following for your consideration...
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Eastern_Orthodox_Christian_theology#Original_sin (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Eastern_Orthodox_Christian_theology#Original_sin)
"To place the term original sin in context: God created man perfect with free will and gave man a direction to follow. Man (Adam) and Woman (Eve) chose rather to disobey God by eating from the tree of knowledge of good and evil, thus changing the "perfect" mode of existence of man to the "flawed" mode of existence of man. This flawed nature and all that has come from it is a result of that Original Sin. Because we participate in humanity, we share in the sin of Adam because like him, we are human. The union of humanity with divinity in Jesus Christ restored, in the Person of Christ, the mode of existence of humanity, so that those who are incorporated in him may participate in this mode of existence, be saved from sin and death, and be united to God in deification. Original sin is cleansed in humans through baptism or, in the case of the Theotokos, the moment Christ took form within her.
However, this view differs from the Roman Catholic (Augustinian) doctrine of Original Sin in that man is not seen as inherently guilty of the sin of Adam. According to the Orthodox, we inherit the consequences of that sin, not the guilt. The difference came about because Augustine interpreted a Latin translation of Romans 5:12 as meaning that through Adam all men sinned, whereas the Orthodox reading in Greek interpret it as meaning that we all sin as part of the inheritance of flawed nature from Adam. Therefore, the Orthodox Church does not teach that we are born deserving to go to hell and Protestant doctrines such as Predeterminism that result from the Augustinian understanding of Original Sin are not a part of Orthodox belief."
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heh.....have you by chance read Robert Jordan's Wheel of Time series of books? :D
Nope.. heard of it tho. Was referring to the Inquisition.
(http://skeptigator.files.wordpress.com/2007/11/automotivator1.jpg)
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Ever noticed what an apple looks like on the inside when you cut it in half? Just saying.
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That wasn't the question. Paraphrasing what I understood to be Skyrock's questions:
1. Will you "burn in Hell" as Christiandom defines it if you deny God. No, because Skyrock's frame of reference is an "eternal torment" type of Hell. JW believe in a merciful and loving God, not one of vengeance. They would point out that "Hell" is the English equivalent of "Hades" or "Sheol", which is the common grave of mankind, not a place of torment. Therefore, being thrown into the Lake of Fire means utter destruction, and not eternal torment.
2. That not believing Jesus is the Son of God would buy you said defined Hell. Already mostly answered in #1, but in addition, the Bible refers in Revelation to the the Resurrection of "the righteous and the unrighteous." Those who were "unrighteous" will be given another chance to accept God's authority over mankind, with Jesus at the head of the Kingdom. Those who accept it will be given everlasting life. Those who reject it will be given the second death / oblivion.
This is how they differ in major ways from the majority of Christiandom. They find no Bible basis for a Trinity, do not accept the concept of Hell as a place of everlasting torment, and do not believe your "soul goes to Heaven" when you die, but rather you lie asleep in death until the time of the Resurrection.
Which is why I find your claim to have family who are practicing Jehovah's Witnesses to be a bit puzzling -- if you do, then you should know that they do not look for a Heavenly existence at all, but rather the prospect of everlasting life on a paradise Earth.
I don't think you understood my answer right, I wasn't saying that JW believe that if you don't believe in God or Jesus you goto hell, I was saying that they believe that if you don't believe in God or Jesus you don't get into heaven, or as they call it "Paradise", I know that JW's don't believe in a hell.
Like I said I've been to the Kingdom Hall's, and the bible studies, and have had lots of long conversations with my sister about her faith, about how they don't believe in celebrating any holidays, except for wedding anniversaries, and the reasoning behind why they don't celebrate any of the other holidays.
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As a Just God, he cannot make exceptions for infants simply because they are infants. We are all guilty, even the newborn.
Notice it doesn't say only adults and adolescents, it says for all have sinned.
What????? even a baby one day old :O ...... What has he done that was a sin????????????
Guess if he died at 1 day old he would go to hell..... WTF
WARPED man real WARPED
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Almost bedtime, so I will only take a couple of these (from page 2)
I don't know what to make of these...
Women
1 Timothy chapter 2:
Also that women should adorn themselves modestly and sensibly in seemly apparel, not with braided hair or gold or pearls or costly attire but by good deeds, as befits women who profess religion. Let a woman learn in silence with all submissiveness. I permit no woman to teach or to have authority over men; she is to keep silent.
Jesus
Matthew 15:22-26:
A Canaanite woman from that vicinity came to him, crying out, "Lord, Son of David, have mercy on me! My daughter is suffering terribly from demon-possession." Jesus did not answer a word. So his disciples came to him and urged him, "Send her away, for she keeps crying out after us." He answered, "I was sent only to the lost sheep of Israel." The woman came and knelt before him. "Lord, help me!" she said. He replied, "It is not right to take the children's bread and toss it to their dogs."
Bit harsh
Two interesting passages, but also two that leave out important context.
In chapter 2, Timothy lays out what could be referred to as a "chain of command" to use AH lingo. The line goes from God to Jesus to "kings and all those in high station" to men to women. Each person "down the line" is to be submissive to those higher up, with the authority ultimately eminating from God. The next verse after the last line you quoted says "For Adam was formed first, then Eve," indicating the arrangement as chosen by God.
You stop the Mathew quote about Jesus a couple of lines early. Here is what verses 27 and 28 say:
She said: "Yes, Lord: but really the little dogs do eat of the crumbs falling from the table of their masters." Then Jesus said in reply to her: "O woman, great is your faith; let it happen to you as you wish." And her daughter was healed from that hour on."
So far from a bit harsh. Jesus demonstrated that any with faith can / should / will be helped.
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What????? even a baby one day old :O ...... What has he done that was a sin????????????
Guess if he died at 1 day old he would go to hell..... WTF
WARPED man real WARPED
+1 :aok
if there is a god, there is no way any body/being can punish an unknowing infant
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+1 :aok
if there is a god, there is no way any body/being can punish an unknowing infant
They don't! See my previous post...
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I believe that Christianity is a story of Astronomy.... It is the Greatist story ever told. No Christian can explain the dino's. Or as they burn gasoline explain how the oil was made. How coal was formed from peat bogs (brown coal). Heck even explain geology to me. Love to hear that one :rofl
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Jaged I'll answer with this verse:
Rom 5:12 Therefore, as through one man sin entered into the world, and death through sin; and so death passed unto all men, for that all sinned:--
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No Christian can explain the dino's.
Read the book of Job. ;)
I believe that Christianity is a story of Astronomy
I've seen this referenced several times in this thread. I have yet to see anyone back that up with their beliefs or information.
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+1 :aok
if there is a god, there is no way any body/being can punish an unknowing infant
In light of full disclosure I adhere to a reformed(as in reformation) understanding. If a scripture passage like Psalm ch51:verse5...Behold, I was brought forth in iniquity; And in sin did my mother conceive me. The writer is referring to himself, and gives the condition of his nature from birth. This is not an isolated bit of scripture, but is part of the teachings of scripture. The problem is the unknowing infant doesn't posses the correct knowledge of how or the will to be what is required. 1 Corinthians 2:14 Now the natural man receiveth not the things of the Spirit of God: for they are foolishness unto him; and he cannot know them, because they are spiritually judged. This also refers to mankind's condition as sinful creatures. All this will lead to the central theme of the bible, which is Jesus. Thats my story and I'm stik'in to it :rock
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I've seen this referenced several times in this thread. I have yet to see anyone back that up with their beliefs or information.
If you believe then you need to watch this movie and disprove it.
Watch all three videos.....
It will open your eyes.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Kla-BcN8u8Q&feature=related (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Kla-BcN8u8Q&feature=related)
WATCH IT!!!!!!!!
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WATCH IT!!!!!!!!
As potsnpans has said already.....
Well I got as far as 7 1/2 min of part 1. They should of used fact check.com. The date Dec. 25th they sayas Jesus birth and the 3 stars called 3 kings with the star of the east? The 25th date is a catholic invention(and I can explain that to be specific). The mention of 3 kings is also absent from the bible but wise men from the east is mentioned, and far as the star of the east thats irrelevant. Broad generalities are prolific so far but of this spirit of the age(zietgeist). I give it another shot to see what there talking about
Another thing he doesn't mention is the reference to crucifixion 3000 yrs ago in Egypt. Crucifixion was practiced among Persians, Seleucids, Carthaginians and Romans from about 600 BC to 337 AD when Emperor Constantine outlawed the practice.
At 4:05 into the first video there are already to many inaccuracies in their theory.
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I just waded through all this and wanted to throw out my 2 cents. I was raised Lutheran. My uncle is a Lutheran minister, and my mom's husband is as well so these discussions happen often.
To me the danger of any religion, Christianity included, is that it sets out to define something in a complicated way, that in the end is very simple.
I was raised on the Good Samiritan. I can get around the rest of the bible stuff, but this one sticks as it puts the responsibilty on me.
On one occasion an expert in the law stood up to test Jesus. "Teacher," he asked, "what must I do to inherit eternal life?" "What is written in the Law?" he replied. "How do you read it?" He answered: " 'Love the Lord your God with all your heart and with all your soul and with all your strength and with all your mind'; and, 'Love your neighbor as yourself.'" "You have answered correctly," Jesus replied. "Do this and you will live." But he wanted to justify himself, so he asked Jesus, "And who is my neighbor?" In reply Jesus said: (the parable starts here) "A man was going down from Jerusalem to Jericho, when he fell into the hands of robbers. They stripped him of his clothes, beat him and went away, leaving him half dead. A priest happened to be going down the same road, and when he saw the man, he passed by on the other side. So too, a Levite, when he came to the place and saw him, passed by on the other side. But a Samaritan, as he traveled, came where the man was; and when he saw him, he took pity on him. He went to him and bandaged his wounds, pouring on oil and wine. Then he put the man on his own donkey, took him to an inn and took care of him. The next day he took out two silver coins and gave them to the innkeeper. 'Look after him,' he said, 'and when I return, I will reimburse you for any extra expense you may have.' "Which of these three do you think was a neighbor to the man who fell into the hands of robbers?" The expert in the law replied, "The one who had mercy on him." Jesus told him, "Go and do likewise."
I have the choice to be the best person I can be. No excuses for why I don't do the right thing. No verses to let me condemn someone else. Very basic. Treat people right. My actions will speak for me.
I don't like that religion tries to let us off the hook, or put the responsibilty for how I act on someone or something else. God doesn't make me do it anymore then the devil. The gift I have is free will and choice. I always hated back in youth group days that the kids who prayed the loudest, and were the most 'devout' in public, were generally the ones who were the jerks in every day life. Church was almost the weekly, get out of jail free card. I see people use God as their reason for killing, hurting, condemning others all in the name of religion.
To me it's irrelevant whether Jesus rose from the dead or not. His message was what mattered. I think he'd shake his head in wonder at us all trying to hide behind him. I do recall reading him saying essentially, 'look just because I can do good things, doesn't mean you can't. Go out there and do it yourself."
After my kids died in the car accident, I really battled it. I'd hear the minister talk about Jesus doing miracles and I'd get mad. If he was here and had the power to save one families child, why did mine have to die? There is no lesson in all this. It didn't make me better. If he had the power to take away suffering, why didn't he?
In the end I think it's best to seperate faith from religion. Christianity or any other religion at it's minimal best, is all about being good to others. There are no exceptions to this, outside of what man throws in there to justify his cruelty.
I can't help but believe is something bigger than all this. My kids were proof of this. My wife and the love we've shared all these years is proof. The good people I deal with in the world are proof too.
In the end, a loving God, in whatever form you see 'him', is just that. As a father, I never expected my children to stop and worship me, or to bow to my greatness. It seems silly to me that God would expect that of us. As a father he'd have my back and by giving me the freedom to choose, show me that 'he' trusts me enough to be the best person I can be, without having to threaten me with all kinds of bad things to try and make me be good.
That's man at work. If you are good you get a cookie, if you are bad, you are going to suffer.
I remember back in college I was working in a Nursing Home and took care of a minister's wife. She often threw bible verses around to comdemn people. One day I looked at her bible and noted it had been translated 48 times in English, and numerous times in Hebrew. I then remembered that game we used to play where we'd line up and one person would start the story and whisper it to the next. By the end of the line the story had almost completely changed.
again it comes down to me having the choice to be the best person I can be. Nothing more, nothing less. That personal accountablity stuff is tough to argue with as is the lack of excuses for why I can't be responsible for me. It sucks, but I am. No one makes me do anything beyond what I choose to do.
I can't use God, Christianity or any other religion as my excuse. And in the end, how i live my life will speak much more loudly then anything else.
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I can't use God, Christianity or any other religion as my excuse. And in the end, how i live my life will speak much more loudly then anything else.
Amen.
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Religon isn't about facts, it's about beliving. If someone cant prove it, they dont wanna belive in it nowadays.
But it kinda stinks to just think that as soon as you die, you rot in the ground if thats what you belive.
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As potsnpans has said already.....
Another thing he doesn't mention is the reference to crucifixion 3000 yrs ago in Egypt. Crucifixion was practiced among Persians, Seleucids, Carthaginians and Romans from about 600 BC to 337 AD when Emperor Constantine outlawed the practice.
At 4:05 into the first video there are already to many inaccuracies in their theory.
OR is the inaccuracies in the bible story :O
I can't use God, Christianity or any other religion as my excuse. And in the end, how i live my life will speak much more loudly then anything else.
Very true live life and be the best person you can be no matter the color of your skin or belief. :aok
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OR is the inaccuracies in the bible story
The inaccuracy concerning crucifixion at least, is a secular inaccuracy.
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No Christian can explain the dino's.
Read the book of Job. ;)
What does the book of Job have to do with dinosaurs? I'm just curious if you can expand on this as I have never read Job.
Because this is something I've always had a hard time believing could have happened if there was a God who created man in his own image, because why would he create the universe, then wait about 10 billion years, create the Earth, then start out populating the Earth with small simple forms of life, that gradually get more complex, resulting in the dinosaur age, then within the last hundred thousand years or so finally decide to put man on Earth, but not before he put earlier forms of human life like Neanderthals, and other pre-human looking species that we've found skeletal remains of.
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These passages in Job are generally believed to describe great creatures that no longer exist today, possibly some type of dinosaurs.
Job 40:15 Behold now, behemoth, which I made as well as thee; He eateth grass as an ox.
Job 40:16 Lo now, his strength is in his loins, And his force is in the muscles of his belly.
Job 40:17 He moveth his tail like a cedar: The sinews of his thighs are knit together.
Job 40:18 His bones are as tubes of brass; His limbs are like bars of iron.
Job 40:19 He is the chief of the ways of God: He only that made him giveth him his sword.
Job 40:20 Surely the mountains bring him forth food, Where all the beasts of the field do play.
Job 40:21 He lieth under the lotus-trees, In the covert of the reed, and the fen.
Job 40:22 The lotus-trees cover him with their shade; The willows of the brook compass him about.
Job 40:23 Behold, if a river overflow, he trembleth not; He is confident, though a Jordan swell even to his mouth.
Job 40:24 Shall any take him when he is on the watch, Or pierce through his nose with a snare?
Job 41:1 Canst thou draw out leviathan with a fishhook? Or press down his tongue with a cord?
Job 41:2 Canst thou put a rope into his nose? Or pierce his jaw through with a hook?
Job 41:3 Will he make many supplications unto thee? Or will he speak soft words unto thee?
Job 41:4 Will he make a covenant with thee, That thou shouldest take him for a servant for ever?
Job 41:5 Wilt thou play with him as with a bird? Or wilt thou bind him for thy maidens?
Job 41:6 Will the bands of fishermen make traffic of him? Will they part him among the merchants?
Job 41:7 Canst thou fill his skin with barbed irons, Or his head with fish-spears?
Job 41:8 Lay thy hand upon him; Remember the battle, and do so no more.
Job 41:9 Behold, the hope of him is in vain: Will not one be cast down even at the sight of him?
Job 41:10 None is so fierce that he dare stir him up; Who then is he that can stand before me?
Job 41:11 Who hath first given unto me, that I should repay him? Whatsoever is under the whole heaven is mine.
Job 41:12 I will not keep silence concerning his limbs, Nor his mighty strength, nor his goodly frame.
Job 41:13 Who can strip off his outer garment? Who shall come within his jaws?
Job 41:14 Who can open the doors of his face? Round about his teeth is terror.
Job 41:15 His strong scales are his pride, Shut up together as with a close seal.
Job 41:16 One is so near to another, That no air can come between them.
Job 41:17 They are joined one to another; They stick together, so that they cannot be sundered.
Job 41:18 His sneezings flash forth light, And his eyes are like the eyelids of the morning.
Job 41:19 Out of his mouth go burning torches, And sparks of fire leap forth.
Job 41:20 Out of his nostrils a smoke goeth, As of a boiling pot and burning rushes.
Job 41:21 His breath kindleth coals, And a flame goeth forth from his mouth.
Job 41:22 In his neck abideth strength, And terror danceth before him.
Job 41:23 The flakes of his flesh are joined together: They are firm upon him; they cannot be moved.
Job 41:24 His heart is as firm as a stone; Yea, firm as the nether millstone.
Job 41:25 When he raiseth himself up, the mighty are afraid: By reason of consternation they are beside themselves.
Job 41:26 If one lay at him with the sword, it cannot avail; Nor the spear, the dart, nor the pointed shaft.
Job 41:27 He counteth iron as straw, And brass as rotten wood.
Job 41:28 The arrow cannot make him flee: Sling-stones are turned with him into stubble.
Job 41:29 Clubs are counted as stubble: He laugheth at the rushing of the javelin.
Job 41:30 His underparts are like sharp potsherds: He spreadeth as it were a threshing-wain upon the mire.
Job 41:31 He maketh the deep to boil like a pot: He maketh the sea like a pot of ointment.
Job 41:32 He maketh a path to shine after him; One would think the deep to be hoary.
Job 41:33 Upon earth there is not his like, That is made without fear.
Job 41:34 He beholdeth everything that is high: He is king over all the sons of pride.
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There is light and there is darkness.
There is material and there is spiritual.
There is proof and there is faith.
Through the darkness of the material proof we are guided by the spiritual light of faith.
I am not a follower of any specific religion, but i recognise these things, and through the spiritual faith i will follow my light, or forever wallow in the material darkness trying to find proof in vain.
Emotions are nothing but spiritual fabric woven around the material proof that we exist, yet we do not need evidence to know emotions are real.
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Because this is something I've always had a hard time believing could have happened if there was a God who created man in his own image, because why would he create the universe, then wait about 10 billion years, create the Earth, then start out populating the Earth with small simple forms of life, that gradually get more complex, resulting in the dinosaur age, then within the last hundred thousand years or so finally decide to put man on Earth, but not before he put earlier forms of human life like Neanderthals, and other pre-human looking species that we've found skeletal remains of.
The Bible doesn't give a time table of millions of years. It gives a timetable of days.
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There is light and there is darkness.
There is material and there is spiritual.
There is proof and there is faith.
Through the darkness of the material proof we are guided by the spiritual light of faith.
I am not a follower of any specific religion, but i recognise these things, and through the spiritual faith i will follow my light, or forever wallow in the material darkness trying to find proof in vain.
Emotions are nothing but spiritual fabric woven around the material proof that we exist, yet we do not need evidence to know emotions are real.
BatfinkV 22 vs 8-12 :aok
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On one occasion an expert in the law stood up to test Jesus. "Teacher," he asked, "what must I do to inherit eternal life?" "What is written in the Law?" he replied. "How do you read it?" He answered: " 'Love the Lord your God with all your heart and with all your soul and with all your strength and with all your mind'; and, 'Love your neighbor as yourself.'" "You have answered correctly," Jesus replied. "Do this and you will live." But he wanted to justify himself, so he asked Jesus, "And who is my neighbor?" In reply Jesus said: (the parable starts here) "A man was going down from Jerusalem to Jericho, when he fell into the hands of robbers. They stripped him of his clothes, beat him and went away, leaving him half dead. A priest happened to be going down the same road, and when he saw the man, he passed by on the other side. So too, a Levite, when he came to the place and saw him, passed by on the other side. But a Samaritan, as he traveled, came where the man was; and when he saw him, he took pity on him. He went to him and bandaged his wounds, pouring on oil and wine. Then he put the man on his own donkey, took him to an inn and took care of him. The next day he took out two silver coins and gave them to the innkeeper. 'Look after him,' he said, 'and when I return, I will reimburse you for any extra expense you may have.' "Which of these three do you think was a neighbor to the man who fell into the hands of robbers?" The expert in the law replied, "The one who had mercy on him." Jesus told him, "Go and do likewise."
:aok
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If we are into quoting verse, here's my 2 cents
Armaments, 2:9-21
And Saint Atila raised the hand grenade up on high, saying,
'Oh, Lord, bless this thy hand grenade that with it thou mayest blow
thy enemies to tiny bits, in thy mercy.' And the Lord did grin, and
people did feast upon the lambs, and sloths, and carp, and anchovies,
and orangutans, and breakfast cereals, and fruit bats, and large --
And the Lord spake, saying, 'First shalt thou take out the Holy Pin. Then, shalt thou count to three, no more, no less. Three shalt be the number thou shalt count, and the number of the counting shalt be three. Four shalt thou not count, nor either count thou two, excepting that thou then proceed to three. Five is right out. Once the number three, being the third number, be reached, then lobbest thou thy Holy Hand Grenade of Antioch towards thou foe, who being naughty in my sight, shall snuff it.'"
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old school astrology?
Maybe, or a religion based on a 2000+ year old theater script. Not that far from a more modern day script made by George Lucas.
May the force be with you.
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I just got the word that my wife is coming home. She's been in Liberia the last 6 weeks where she used her nursing skills to teach and work in a little hospital called Phebe, in the middle of nowhere.
She went because she couldn't stand the thought of being home for the third anniversary of our son and daughter dying in the car crash. She felt like the best way to fight back was to try and make a difference in the world. Over that time she saw all kinds of things we in the US don't see. Lots of death and dying, starvation, horrible burns and accidents, children dying etc. She worked her tail off. Her grief fueled her desire to help. on our wedding Anniversary, August 20th a 4 day old baby was brought to the hospital with a double cleft lip and pallete. My wife spent time trying to help the mother learn to care for the little boy. But that family's faith told them that evil spirits had changed the baby causing the deformity and tradition would have them kill the child. They were talked out of that, but then disappeared. The little boy being left at the hospital. My wife went into the room where the babies were and saw a local nurse giving the baby water. She asked why not formula? The nurse replied the hospital didn't have any and they were just keeping the baby's tummy full of water til he died.
The easiest thing to do would be to not get involved. This gal I married, despite the grief, is not wired that way. The doctors say the only way the baby lives is if you take him. So she did. 24/7 for the last three weeks, she's fed him through a nasal tube, kept him clean, warm, spent sleepless nights as he fought pneumonia, all the while working the adoption in Liberia that now gives us a son, Matthew David Johnson. August 28th, the worst day of our lives, she's alone with Matthew, and they bond. She cries for Andy and Chris and for this little guy whose had such a rough start, but still has a chance. The last week and a half it's been fighting the US imigration folks to let her bring him home so we can get him taken care of. It's amazing how many hoops one must jump through to save a baby.
With luck I get to meet my son on Thursday.
I don't tell the story looking for praise or attaboys. I use it as an example of the Good Samaritan. I'm very proud of my gal, as there was never ever any question that she'd do what she did, but too many folks would have walked to either side and avoided the challenges that we will now face raising this little boy.
I do believe Cathy's actions were a greater sign of faith and love, then anything someone could say or any bible story one could tell. She didn't do it because she was a 'Christian" or because of her religion. She did it, because it's what good people do, without question. You help if you can and you treat people as well as you can.
One of the offshoots of this is that we both have had to look at our faith again, as the timing of it all feels strange. She bonds with Matthew on the anniversary of two of her kids dying. She'll be home on what would have been Christina's 19th birthday and it forces our live in another direction that includes me changing diapers again after 19 years. I can't wait to get started :)
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I just got the word that my wife is coming home. She's been in Liberia the last 6 weeks where she used her nursing skills to teach and work in a little hospital called Phebe, in the middle of nowhere.
She went because she couldn't stand the thought of being home for the third anniversary of our son and daughter dying in the car crash. She felt like the best way to fight back was to try and make a difference in the world. Over that time she saw all kinds of things we in the US don't see. Lots of death and dying, starvation, horrible burns and accidents, children dying etc. She worked her tail off. Her grief fueled her desire to help. on our wedding Anniversary, August 20th a 4 day old baby was brought to the hospital with a double cleft lip and pallete. My wife spent time trying to help the mother learn to care for the little boy. But that family's faith told them that evil spirits had changed the baby causing the deformity and tradition would have them kill the child. They were talked out of that, but then disappeared. The little boy being left at the hospital. My wife went into the room where the babies were and saw a local nurse giving the baby water. She asked why not formula? The nurse replied the hospital didn't have any and they were just keeping the baby's tummy full of water til he died.
The easiest thing to do would be to not get involved. This gal I married, despite the grief, is not wired that way. The doctors say the only way the baby lives is if you take him. So she did. 24/7 for the last three weeks, she's fed him through a nasal tube, kept him clean, warm, spent sleepless nights as he fought pneumonia, all the while working the adoption in Liberia that now gives us a son, Matthew David Johnson. August 28th, the worst day of our lives, she's alone with Matthew, and they bond. She cries for Andy and Chris and for this little guy whose had such a rough start, but still has a chance. The last week and a half it's been fighting the US imigration folks to let her bring him home so we can get him taken care of. It's amazing how many hoops one must jump through to save a baby.
With luck I get to meet my son on Thursday.
I don't tell the story looking for praise or attaboys. I use it as an example of the Good Samaritan. I'm very proud of my gal, as there was never ever any question that she'd do what she did, but too many folks would have walked to either side and avoided the challenges that we will now face raising this little boy.
I do believe Cathy's actions were a greater sign of faith and love, then anything someone could say or any bible story one could tell. She didn't do it because she was a 'Christian" or because of her religion. She did it, because it's what good people do, without question. You help if you can and you treat people as well as you can.
One of the offshoots of this is that we both have had to look at our faith again, as the timing of it all feels strange. She bonds with Matthew on the anniversary of two of her kids dying. She'll be home on what would have been Christina's 19th birthday and it forces our live in another direction that includes me changing diapers again after 19 years. I can't wait to get started :)
Absolutely breathtaking!
Thanks for sharing.
You and your family are in my prayers.
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The desire for God is written on the human heart.
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Absolutely breathtaking!
Thanks for sharing.
what he said...
wtg guppy! :)
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I just got the word that my wife is coming home. She's been in Liberia the last 6 weeks where she used her nursing skills to teach and work in a little hospital called Phebe, in the middle of nowhere.
She went because she couldn't stand the thought of being home for the third anniversary of our son and daughter dying in the car crash. She felt like the best way to fight back was to try and make a difference in the world. Over that time she saw all kinds of things we in the US don't see. Lots of death and dying, starvation, horrible burns and accidents, children dying etc. She worked her tail off. Her grief fueled her desire to help. on our wedding Anniversary, August 20th a 4 day old baby was brought to the hospital with a double cleft lip and pallete. My wife spent time trying to help the mother learn to care for the little boy. But that family's faith told them that evil spirits had changed the baby causing the deformity and tradition would have them kill the child. They were talked out of that, but then disappeared. The little boy being left at the hospital. My wife went into the room where the babies were and saw a local nurse giving the baby water. She asked why not formula? The nurse replied the hospital didn't have any and they were just keeping the baby's tummy full of water til he died.
The easiest thing to do would be to not get involved. This gal I married, despite the grief, is not wired that way. The doctors say the only way the baby lives is if you take him. So she did. 24/7 for the last three weeks, she's fed him through a nasal tube, kept him clean, warm, spent sleepless nights as he fought pneumonia, all the while working the adoption in Liberia that now gives us a son, Matthew David Johnson. August 28th, the worst day of our lives, she's alone with Matthew, and they bond. She cries for Andy and Chris and for this little guy whose had such a rough start, but still has a chance. The last week and a half it's been fighting the US imigration folks to let her bring him home so we can get him taken care of. It's amazing how many hoops one must jump through to save a baby.
With luck I get to meet my son on Thursday.
I don't tell the story looking for praise or attaboys. I use it as an example of the Good Samaritan. I'm very proud of my gal, as there was never ever any question that she'd do what she did, but too many folks would have walked to either side and avoided the challenges that we will now face raising this little boy.
I do believe Cathy's actions were a greater sign of faith and love, then anything someone could say or any bible story one could tell. She didn't do it because she was a 'Christian" or because of her religion. She did it, because it's what good people do, without question. You help if you can and you treat people as well as you can.
One of the offshoots of this is that we both have had to look at our faith again, as the timing of it all feels strange. She bonds with Matthew on the anniversary of two of her kids dying. She'll be home on what would have been Christina's 19th birthday and it forces our live in another direction that includes me changing diapers again after 19 years. I can't wait to get started :)
In all things He has a plan. He knows the pain and anguish you went through when you lost 2 of your children, (I cannot begin to imagine it.) and now He has given you another son to love and cherish. :rock
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Although its nice to be nice, and trying to be a good Samaritan is a worthy effort. Christianity is knowing that perfect adherence to Gods rules are essential, and we are deficient. It teaches that we are incapable of earning or deserving of Gods eternal goodness or salvation toward us, and that God alone provided what is necessary for our aid. How unfair is it to give someone what they deserve, if it yours to give. What if you have given everything good to someone, and they misused wasted and ignored how they were to handle what was given. Then come to you again and ask for more. To some God choses to forgive and give, others not. If you want specifics I could tell you where the bible lays it out. So to those astrology buff's, clue me in to the detailed specifics of the similarities to Christianity.
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I just got the word that my wife is coming home. She's been in Liberia the last 6 weeks where she used her nursing skills to teach and work in a little hospital called Phebe, in the middle of nowhere.
She went because she couldn't stand the thought of being home for the third anniversary of our son and daughter dying in the car crash. She felt like the best way to fight back was to try and make a difference in the world. Over that time she saw all kinds of things we in the US don't see. Lots of death and dying, starvation, horrible burns and accidents, children dying etc. She worked her tail off. Her grief fueled her desire to help. on our wedding Anniversary, August 20th a 4 day old baby was brought to the hospital with a double cleft lip and pallete. My wife spent time trying to help the mother learn to care for the little boy. But that family's faith told them that evil spirits had changed the baby causing the deformity and tradition would have them kill the child. They were talked out of that, but then disappeared. The little boy being left at the hospital. My wife went into the room where the babies were and saw a local nurse giving the baby water. She asked why not formula? The nurse replied the hospital didn't have any and they were just keeping the baby's tummy full of water til he died.
The easiest thing to do would be to not get involved. This gal I married, despite the grief, is not wired that way. The doctors say the only way the baby lives is if you take him. So she did. 24/7 for the last three weeks, she's fed him through a nasal tube, kept him clean, warm, spent sleepless nights as he fought pneumonia, all the while working the adoption in Liberia that now gives us a son, Matthew David Johnson. August 28th, the worst day of our lives, she's alone with Matthew, and they bond. She cries for Andy and Chris and for this little guy whose had such a rough start, but still has a chance. The last week and a half it's been fighting the US imigration folks to let her bring him home so we can get him taken care of. It's amazing how many hoops one must jump through to save a baby.
With luck I get to meet my son on Thursday.
I don't tell the story looking for praise or attaboys. I use it as an example of the Good Samaritan. I'm very proud of my gal, as there was never ever any question that she'd do what she did, but too many folks would have walked to either side and avoided the challenges that we will now face raising this little boy.
I do believe Cathy's actions were a greater sign of faith and love, then anything someone could say or any bible story one could tell. She didn't do it because she was a 'Christian" or because of her religion. She did it, because it's what good people do, without question. You help if you can and you treat people as well as you can.
One of the offshoots of this is that we both have had to look at our faith again, as the timing of it all feels strange. She bonds with Matthew on the anniversary of two of her kids dying. She'll be home on what would have been Christina's 19th birthday and it forces our live in another direction that includes me changing diapers again after 19 years. I can't wait to get started :)
Bless both of you Dan.
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The desire for God is written on the human heart.
The desire for God is the wish to be a slave.The desire to believe anything on faith alone is irrational.Religion claims morality is derived from God's word.It is not.Religion is in itself immoral and is man-made(and it shows).Thankfully there is zero evidence it is true.Who would wish for it to be true except those who don't like to think for themselves?
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The desire to believe anything on faith alone is irrational.
Like solipsism?
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Jaged I'll answer with this verse:
Quote
Rom 5:12 Therefore, as through one man sin entered into the world, and death through sin; and so death passed unto all men, for that all sinned:--
And...
5:14 Nevertheless death reigned from Adam to Moses, even over them that had not sinned after the similitude of Adam's transgression, who is the figure of him that was to come.
This just reinforces (to me) that death is the consequence...
BTW... Greetings from Littleton... :)
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And...
5:14 Nevertheless death reigned from Adam to Moses, even over them that had not sinned after the similitude of Adam's transgression, who is the figure of him that was to come.
This just reinforces (to me) that death is the consequence...
BTW... Greetings from Littleton... :)
ewww...you live in Littleton?
j/k :D
Spiritual death is the consequence of original sin without a doubt. The way people differ in their belief is whether or not it applies to infants, or the mentally retarded. The Bible does not make exemption for anyone. For ALL have sinned and come short of the glory of god.
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ewww...you live in Littleton?
j/k :D
Spiritual death is the consequence of original sin without a doubt. The way people differ in their belief is whether or not it applies to infants, or the mentally retarded. The Bible does not make exemption for anyone. For ALL have sinned and come short of the glory of god.
Did you know that the Catholic Church is on the verge of abolishing Limbo?
http://www.seattlecatholic.com/a051207.html (http://www.seattlecatholic.com/a051207.html)
"It now appears that the theologians appointed to look into this matter by the late John Paul II, while certainly favoring the 'abolition' of the limbus puerorum, have not quite finished their work. However, the question is still highly relevant, particularly because Pope Benedict, prior to his election to the See of Peter, had already gone on record as expressing his personal disbelief in Limbo."
The Bible must be interpreted in light of Holy Tradition...
Babies don't have to go to hell, they never did...
P.S. Unincorporated Littleton, Douglas County... :aok
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Did you know that the Catholic Church is on the verge of abolishing Limbo?
http://www.seattlecatholic.com/a051207.html (http://www.seattlecatholic.com/a051207.html)
"
Babies don't have to go to hell, they never did...
Another example of religious immorality...How many lives have been ruined by them being told their unbaptized baby is in a permanent state of limbo?
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Another example of religious immorality...How many lives have been ruined by them being told their unbaptized baby is in a permanent state of limbo?
How would lives be ruined? :huh
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Did you know that the Catholic Church is on the verge of abolishing Limbo?
http://www.seattlecatholic.com/a051207.html (http://www.seattlecatholic.com/a051207.html)
"It now appears that the theologians appointed to look into this matter by the late John Paul II, while certainly favoring the 'abolition' of the limbus puerorum, have not quite finished their work. However, the question is still highly relevant, particularly because Pope Benedict, prior to his election to the See of Peter, had already gone on record as expressing his personal disbelief in Limbo."
The Bible must be interpreted in light of Holy Tradition...
Babies don't have to go to hell, they never did...
P.S. Unincorporated Littleton, Douglas County... :aok
I'm not Catholic so I don't pay attention to what they do/don't do. ;)
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um...not many loiny. the ones who aint baptised the parents dont care what priests say, and the christians are baptised...so...
One thing that is annoying is people who try to push their religion on me, but i would say equally wrong is the person who tries to destroy the faith of others just because it doesnt fit with themself.
[shrug]
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I'm not Catholic so I don't pay attention to what they do/don't do. ;)
I'm going to go out on a limb here and assume you belong to a Protestant denomination (you'll correct me if I'm wrong and, if so, my apologies). All Protestant denominations owe their existance to the Catholic Church, and while the Reformation dealt with things like the Papacy and Indulgences, they still take some of their queues from the Catholics. Notions like Limbo were filtered down to the Protestants. Ever heard of Predestination? When the Catholics publish their dates for Easter do the Protestants not adhere to it?
So it might be of concern to you after all. Not sure, just saying...
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Guppy35, it's clear that you have married an amazing woman.
May God bless you and your new family.
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Although its nice to be nice, and trying to be a good Samaritan is a worthy effort. Christianity is knowing that perfect adherence to Gods rules are essential, and we are deficient. It teaches that we are incapable of earning or deserving of Gods eternal goodness or salvation toward us, and that God alone provided what is necessary for our aid. How unfair is it to give someone what they deserve, if it yours to give. What if you have given everything good to someone, and they misused wasted and ignored how they were to handle what was given. Then come to you again and ask for more. To some God choses to forgive and give, others not. If you want specifics I could tell you where the bible lays it out. So to those astrology buff's, clue me in to the detailed specifics of the similarities to Christianity.
And that is where in my mind, man gets in the way of faith. The notion that some all powerful being is keeping score and sits in judgment of us just doesn't work for me. That's not my "father". As a parent, you don't give up on your children regardless of their mistakes. You are implying that God does. so you better be good or you won't get a cookie. It also implies that being a good person is for selfish reasons, because you hope the big guy might recognize it.
The best man I ever knew was my father and he died at 45. Did the good die young? Well I'm 48 now and I've done my best to be a good man too. So is my living punishment? Watching my children die is the most horrific thing anyone could go through. There is no greater punishment. I've known heaven already. It was my family. Nothing could be better then that. There is no reward greater then my wife and kids and I've lost half of that already. If there is a heaven, for me it would be my family together again. I don't need some great understanding. And if there is a hell, I've been there already.
I've had all the usual cliche's thrown at me both after my Dad died, a month before my son was born, and after my son and daughter died. They don't work. No God would plan to kill people. A loving father doesn't do that to 'teach lessons'. Outside of suicide, I don't have much choice but to keep going, so that beauty "God only gives you what you can handle" really doesn't work for me. I'm not a better man for having endured the last three years. There is no lesson in surviving. And if someone is going to tell me, my two kids had to die, so Cathy would save this one, the math is kind of lousy.
What I believe is that someday I'll see my kids again. If I didn't believe that, I don't know that I'd have kept going.
As for being a good person, that's a choice I make. I can't condemn others who don't live life the way I do. They too have a choice. I don't believe God would give us that ability and then condemn some folks for their choices.
Jeez I'm windy.
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Did you know that the Catholic Church is on the verge of abolishing Limbo?
What is their position on mojitos?
(http://www.davidlandeo.com/Limbo_Winner.JPG)
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The notion that some all powerful being is keeping score and sits in judgment of us just doesn't work for me. That's not my "father". As a parent, you don't give up on your children regardless of their mistakes. You are implying that God does. so you better be good or you won't get a cookie. It also implies that being a good person is for selfish reasons, because you hope the big guy might recognize it. "Guppy35"
..."we are incapable of earning or deserving of Gods eternal goodness or salvation toward us, and that God alone provided what is necessary for our aid"...What again did I imply?
Tragedy is found in many places, unfortunately it found you. However as this thread sought to make the argument of presenting "old school astrology" to just new age Christianity. Skyrock being ignorant of essential Christian doctrine has been flaccid as yet to present where the two meet at fundamental points. Vague generalities and factually errant videos might stir school children, but makes for poor honest debate.
Notions like Limbo were filtered down to the Protestants. Ever heard of Predestination?"Jaged"
Limbo In theological usage the name is applied to (a) the temporary place or state of the souls of the just who, although purified from sin, were excluded from the beatific vision until Christ's triumphant ascension into Heaven (the "limbus patrum"); or (b) to the permanent place or state of those unbaptized children and others who, dying without grievous personal sin, are excluded from the beatific vision on account of original sin alone (the "limbus infantium" or "puerorum").
Theologically, the principal issue of predestination in the Bible has to do with God selecting people for salvation beforehand. The Bible clearly does teach that somehow God chooses people for salvation before they're even born. Maybe you might want to read up on those subjects?
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..."we are incapable of earning or deserving of Gods eternal goodness or salvation toward us, and that God alone provided what is necessary for our aid"...What again did I imply?
Tragedy is found in many places, unfortunately it found you. However as this thread sought to make the argument of presenting "old school astrology" to just new age Christianity. Skyrock being ignorant of essential Christian doctrine has been flaccid as yet to present where the two meet at fundamental points. Vague generalities and factually errant videos might stir school children, but makes for poor honest debate. Limbo In theological usage the name is applied to (a) the temporary place or state of the souls of the just who, although purified from sin, were excluded from the beatific vision until Christ's triumphant ascension into Heaven (the "limbus patrum"); or (b) to the permanent place or state of those unbaptized children and others who, dying without grievous personal sin, are excluded from the beatific vision on account of original sin alone (the "limbus infantium" or "puerorum").
Theologically, the principal issue of predestination in the Bible has to do with God selecting people for salvation beforehand. The Bible clearly does teach that somehow God chooses people for salvation before they're even born. Maybe you might want to read up on those subjects?
So the question becomes, is the bible the literal word of God, or the interpretation of the word of god by men. Again, the basics are hard to debate. Treat people well, look out for your neighbor. But the bible didn't come together for quite some time after the death of Jesus and what was included in the bible was the work of men, making a decision as to what belonged and what didn't. Any book is going to include the built in bias of the culture, the time, the people writing it etc.
The beauty of faith is that it is each person's interpretation and if as an average joe I can comment, it evolves over a person's life. It isn't set in stone. The danger of religion is that it is man trying to impose man's will on another man's faith and to set it in stone.
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What's the zen saying, about the way being something that, if you speak it, it disappears? It sounds a bit like Franklin's "All intelligent men have the same religion / If you ask them, they say nothing"
The problem with religion, in man's hands, is when it degrades from thought, through various intermediates, and into machine, like some churches. At that point the religious machine may feel righteous, but in fact has no rational justification for anything they do. Religion is best kept private.
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But the bible didn't come together for quite some time after the death of Jesus and what was included in the bible was the work of men, making a decision as to what belonged and what didn't.
The men that compiled the books into the Bible trusted that the Holy Spirit would not allow them to make a mistake. :)
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The men that compiled the books into the Bible trusted that the Holy Spirit would not allow them to make a mistake. :)
That also implies that God controls us, which takes me off the hook for just about everything, and puts the deaths of millions on God.
I can't buy that part. That he would be selectively active is even scarier to me. He could take care of the world's suffering but just isn't in the mood?
That's the part I can reconcile, in particular since the kids were killed. My uncle, who is a minister said at the funeral, God had a choice, to be all controlling, or all loving. He chose to be all loving, which means he gave us choice too, and with that, things happen.
I can accept that part as like any parent, you don't micromanage your kids. You give them the best tools you can and you send them out to live their lives. Sometimes they get in cars and an accident happens. All controlling, we'd have never let Drew drive, or Chris go with him or even let them out of our sight just to avoid those fears that come with being parents. But that's control, not love.
Instead you take the risks and wish for the best. And sometimes it doesn't happen.
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That also implies that God controls us, which takes me off the hook for just about everything, and puts the deaths of millions on God.
No....you either misunderstand, or I wasn't clear....either way....
Those men prayed for guidance, God provided that guidance in the form of the Holy Spirit and they trusted that the Holy Spirit would guide them in which books belonged and which didn't.
*edit*
If your kids came to you asking for advice, do you ignore them? Or do you give them the best advice you know? I'm guessing for you, and the rest of us, it's the latter. Same deal with those gents that determined which books were going to make up the Bible. :)
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(http://i198.photobucket.com/albums/aa223/Skyrock67/77-church-marqee-fight.jpg)
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You think you could post some smaller pics? :rolleyes:
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Do you have a better one? The Catholic church ones are a tad hard to read.
:aok