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General Forums => Aces High General Discussion => Topic started by: bmwgs on January 02, 2009, 03:03:41 AM

Title: Respect - Honor - Fair Play
Post by: bmwgs on January 02, 2009, 03:03:41 AM
In a previous thread there was an issue how the distinction of fair play, honor, and a reasonable even playing field is understood by various players in Aces High.  I received a response from two players, Urchin and BaldEagl, who answers somewhat intrigued me.  I felt we hijacked that thread, and it has since been locked, but I would like to continue this discussion.

I am not trying or looking for a mud slinging contest.  If that's what this thread turns into being, then I for one will simply quit responding and face the fact that there can not be a serious discussion of various opinions in this BBS.

I responded to Urchin that I would title the thread BMWgs and Urchin’s discussion.  I have since changed my mind and have decided to title it as I did so it can be a discussion of respect, honor, and fair play as understood by various members of the Aces High Community.

Now I am not a gifted writer or typist, and to our English majors out there, I am sure you will find some mistakes, and if you so desperately feel the need to advise me of these mistakes, then go right ahead.

To be Continued
Title: Re: Respect - Honor - Fair Play
Post by: bmwgs on January 02, 2009, 03:04:49 AM
From Urchin:

“   Sir - The difference is that you need/want an explanation, because you do not see the values of 'fair play' or 'honor' as being applicable to this game. “


With all due respect, I do see the values of fair play and/or honor being applicable to this game.  What I do not see and how it is defined by other players, including the “old vets”.  This is the question I was asking.  Not the definition of what the words mean, but how do you interpret it.

Honor is a unique word, it has several meanings, but I think we will agree on it main definition as being;

Honour or Honor (see spelling differences), (from the Latin word honos, honoris) is the evaluation of a person's trustworthiness and social status based on that individual's espousals and actions. Honour is deemed exactly what determines a person's character: whether or not the person reflects honesty, respect, integrity, or fairness.

The problem is this definition can be interpreted differently by individuals.  The sense of honor varies from culture to culture.  What my not be honorable to me and you, may be honorable to a person from a different segment of society and/or culture.  That is why I asked the question.  I specifically wanted to ask how honor is understood by the older members as it applies to this game.  I would like to even see some examples.  I hope this clears up what I was asking.

Urchin:

  Again, this very clearly illustrates what I see as the difference between myself (and the small minority who see things like me) and you (and the vast majority of the online gaming 'community').  You seem to be saying that you understand the concepts of honor and respect, but you do not find them applicable to online games?  Is that correct?


This is not correct.  I feel the concepts of honor and respect should be applied to on-line games as in all other facets of life.  Now, I don't know if I am a member of the majority of the on-line community since Aces High is the only game I play on-line, but I do feel there should be honorable play, but then again what is honorable to me may not be honorable to another player. 

As for the respect part, I see some members of the minority as you describe it, demonstrate the lack of respect to payers everyday on this BBS and on 200 in game.  For respect to be received it should be earned.  Many times I see only a one way path here.  Just because a person has been playing this game since AW days does not mean that they automatically should have the respect of every new player that joins the game.  Earning the respect of others is an ongoing process.  On the flip side, a new player should extend some respect to older players until they have time to determine if that player should be entitled to it.

Urchin:

I'm not sure exactly where I did any name calling or made any smart assed remarks, but if I offended you I apologize.  I have very clear concepts of what honor, respect, courtesy, and fair play - but I make no distinction between sitting across the table from someone playing chess and playing it over Yahoo.  The people on the other side of the screen are people that are just as real as I am, even if I'll never meet them face to face.  The curious dichotomy between values that are applicable 'in real life" and those applicable 'online' honestly puzzle me.  Can you explain to me (without taking offense, as I truly intend none) how you manage that?


Your are absolutely right. You did not do any name calling.  That was my mistake.  I got lazy and combined two answers into one.  I apologize to you for that.

The rest of your reply I can answer in two words “Human Contact”.  There is a distinction between me sitting across the table from someone where I can look into their eyes and see the emotions they exhibit.  I can not see this through the strokes of a key board.  I do agree that honor, respect, courtesy and fair play can and should be extended in the virtual world, but to me there is a significant difference between real life and an on-line life.  So we are not really that far off from each other on this subject, at least not in my opinion.

Urchin:

I haven't truly enjoyed the game in years.  I kept coming back hoping that I would be re-captivated, but I always found myself disgusted with the gameplay in shorter and shorter time frames.  Cancelled my account for the final time in the Spring, and packed away the 'flight gear'.  I think that pretty much all of the people who feel the same way about this game as I did have also left in disgust.  I know there is a small group of people trying to change the course of the game, but that seems as futile to me as standing in the Mississippi and spreading your arms trying to dam the river.


Now this is where we really have a different of opinions.  I did not realize that you were no longer a playing member.  To leave the game and then come to the game's BBS and voice an opinion on how it should be played, to me is like moving out of a town, and then coming back to the City Council Meetings trying to influence how the one that are living there should live.  Urchin, I say this will all due respect.  I personally don't care if you post or not on this BBS, that is up to HTC.  I value anyone’s input on any subject until I see that it is just a troll.  I do not believe this is the case with you.  I just wanted to express my opinion that I would not enter a discussion on a forum that I am no longer involved in.

I understand that some players would like it to be the way it was.  If that are what they are trying to achieve, then the path they have taken is the wrong one with all the name calling, insults, belittling, and other disrespectful actions they have directed towards anyone that does not agree with them.

Fred

To Be Continued
Title: Re: Respect - Honor - Fair Play
Post by: bmwgs on January 02, 2009, 03:05:21 AM
From BaldEagl:

The point is to make the game enjoyable for everyone.


I agree 

From BaldEagl:

Most of us are here to test our skills in airial combat.  Any of the better sticks can take on  1, 2 or even three opponents and have at least a chance of coming out on top.  More than that and the likelyhood is slim to none so being the fourth, fifth or sixth guy in on a lone con isn't really fair play.  Why not just fly on and find another con?  You know, I was at an enemy base one night alone.  I started out in a one on one and before I knew it there were thirty Rooks up all after me.  After I died they all landed.  What's up with that?  Where's the fun in that for anyone?


I don't know if I agree with that most are here to test their skills sin aerial combat.  The dynamics of this game has changed since I have started playing, so even though that may have been the original focus, only a true survey would tell

As for you being the lone con with a gang bang behind you, well, you may be the only game in town at the time.  Wasn't fun for you, but the other six may have had a great time.  I don't know I wasn't there, but as it has been said before what's fun to you may not be what's fun for someone else.


From BaldEagl:
You can't expect multitudes of opposing players to end their sorties to up to defend NOE hoard missions undetected to remote areas of the map that no one is watching.  There's no way to reasonably defend against a 25-30 plane NOE mission like the one I took part in the other night.  Back in AW I was CO of a 60+ member squad.  We staged missions with planes taking off from as many as 5 bases and converging at our target.  We didn't go NOE.  We also didn't care if we won or lost; only that we had fun and we always did and so did our opponents.


Yes a 30 plane NOE can be busted by one player.  I have seen LYNX do it many of times.  Matter of fact he is quite good at it.

From BaldEagl:

Spying to alert the other side to missions or side switching to turn a CV into danger are probably a couple of the more dis honerable acts in the game aside from shade vulching.  This is the true measure of doing anything to "win".  I'm sorry but that's not winning.  The ones who do this are true losers.


I agree with you from my interpretation of honor.  I do not agree with spying, or switching sides with intent to do a specific action like to bust a mission or sink a CV.  I have no problems with people who switch sides just to fight on the lower number side.

As for shade vulching that would be HTC’s responsibility to take corrective action when it is brought to their attention.

From BaldEagl:

These are just a few examples.  Shall I continue?


For the most part you haven't given any examples that I personally do not agree with.

From BaldEagl:
 
I'm not advocating that you should let a wounded plane go with a salute for a good fight like in the old days (yes, it's true and it was a pretty common practice because people were'nt obsessed with their scores).  Like I said, it's about making the game fun for everyone.


No comment

From BaldEagl:

There's an old saying... treat people the way you would like to be treated.  That doesn't mean don't fight them and don't shoot them down.  Just have a little common courtesy and if you do get shot down leave the 200/PM tirade crap at the door.


Could not have said it better, just wouldn't be as entertaining on Friday and Saturday nights.

From BaldEagl:

Do you understand now?


This is a question I'm not sure how to take.  One part says your being sarcastic, where the other side of me is saying your just asking a question.  Can't really respond to this until I understand the actual intent.


I know this has been a long post, and I apologize for that.  I just felt I need to respond to some replies to some of my earlier posts.  I would like to state that I did not intend to insult anyone on this board.  I just had some question that I wanted some sincere responses to.

OK, my shield if up   shoot away

Fred
Title: Re: Respect - Honor - Fair Play
Post by: Delirium on January 02, 2009, 03:38:16 AM
I hate to bring this up again, I feel as though I am wasting my time. You view this game a certain way that is vastly different from my own, but this is how I view the game when looking at a new player.

(I posted this in a different forum)
_____________________________ _____________

1. Guy starts AH, has no clue what to do.

2. He finds the ACM/Dogfighting skill curve too steep, decides to affect the game the only way he can; bombing.

3. He starts off with heavy fighters, most often augering in the process of hitting the target.

4. He moves on to heavy bombers, not always learning how to use the bomb site.

5. He finds a squad of like minded individuals, and with enough of them, they begin to feel as though they are unstoppable. They ridicule everyone they steam roll and avoid those they can't gang easily enough.
--------

At this point they;

A. Continue to base take with large numbers and futher refine the process with more numbers or specialized missions.

B. Get bored of base taking.

C. Get tired of being smacked around by experienced sticks and approach a friendly one to teach them.

D. Decide to approach the game from a new perspective, often through scenarios or some other event.
_____________________________ _

It drives me crazy seeing newer flyers within AH taking the easy way out and staying within the huge horde squads. I wish I could take every new guy within AH and show him the freedom of being able to fight and not have to rely on the mob to protect him.

Aces High is a lot like golf, it is a test of personal ability and watching the ability grow and mature from within. Frankly, I don't care if you are a level bomber, a tanker, a furballer, or a tank plinker; just be good at what you do and realize you don't need 30 others guys around you to affect the game.

That said, there are very few I honor within Aces High and those gents I've known for well over 10 years (people like Corky, Silat, Fencer). I respect many that don't share my view of how Aces High so long as they reciprocate; don't hide in the horde or ruin the few good fights the rest of us can find on the map.

That said, have you spent anytime with someone who can show you some moves in the DA, Bmwgs? The joy of base taking can't even compare to taking on multiple cons by yourself and winning. Until you have tasted that freedom, you haven't really experienced Aces High, imho...

Let me know, I'd be more than happy to teach you the little I know.
Title: Re: Respect - Honor - Fair Play
Post by: Bruv119 on January 02, 2009, 03:43:01 AM
spot on Del  :aok
Title: Re: Respect - Honor - Fair Play
Post by: Getback on January 02, 2009, 03:44:32 AM
Great post beemer. Hopefully it will stay civil.

I've been playing flight sims for 12 years or more. The term honorable is elusive to me. The other day I saw a duel going on between a countryman and a knight. I asked if he needed help. He said no. So I stayed out. That's honorable. But if he lost I was going in. Is that honorable! Many will say no. For one I had no idea how the fight developed. Did the con come in with alt. Did the con have a superior plane. Heck I didn't look to see what the friendly was flying.

Is spying honorable. Nope. Yet about every country did it in WWII.

Is shooting down a glider honorable. Some will say no? What if the guy calls out no ammo? Should you shoot him down anyway. Some will say no and others yes. Personally I will shoot either plane down. Reason: They should have managed their resources better and why should they get a free pass out after attacking our countrymen or our base. BTW, we use to do that back in AW. That is give free pass. I remember the turning point for me though very clearly. I saw a low con coming in and he said that he was out of ammo. So I let him go. He landed 12 kills and AW didn't have a rearm pad. So I looked at the after action reports. He had been shooting down his own squaddie to get better fighter ranking.

Respect I do understand and is not elusive. Respect is when you give a check 6 and thank those that give it to you. Respect is when you refrain from flaming another and when you <S> the guy that shot you down in a good fight. Respect is when you pick someone and don't hale it over the country channel. Respect is to treat others the way you want to be treated.

Fair play I will leave for others. That is just as elusive as honor.

Addendum: There is not much fair about this game. It's really more about freedom than fairness. The freedom to choose what you want to do and what to do it in. For the most part you can choose the situation you want to be in or the situation you want to avoid. For instance if there is a large horde and not many friendlies you don't have to fly to defend. You can sit in a manned ack or up a gv or just avoid the area. Better yet just fly on the fringes of the horde and drag one out. Still though if you go to the level of pilot vs pilot, plane vs plane there will never be fair play. It's not even possible.
Title: Re: Respect - Honor - Fair Play
Post by: Delirium on January 02, 2009, 04:04:22 AM
Still though if you go to the level of pilot vs pilot, plane vs plane there will never be fair play. It's not even possible.

Nothing is better than allowing a superior performing Spit16 to dive on my 38 and eventually wearing him down to the point I can get a guns solution on him. It is a high beyond measure!

If you only engage when you have the advantage, you will find yourself meat any time you do not have that advantage. Do you want to be the hunter or the hunted? Sometimes, the hunter isn't the guy with the better plane and more altitude...
Title: Re: Respect - Honor - Fair Play
Post by: bmwgs on January 02, 2009, 04:08:49 AM
I hate to bring this up again, I feel as though I am wasting my time. You view this game a certain way that is vastly different from my own, but this is how I view the game when looking at a new player.

(I posted this in a different forum)
_____________________________ _____________

1. Guy starts AH, has no clue what to do.

2. He finds the ACM/Dogfighting skill curve too steep, decides to affect the game the only way he can; bombing.

3. He starts off with heavy fighters, most often augering in the process of hitting the target.

4. He moves on to heavy bombers, not always learning how to use the bomb site.

5. He finds a squad of like minded individuals, and with enough of them, they begin to feel as though they are unstoppable. They ridicule everyone they steam roll and avoid those they can't gang easily enough.
--------

At this point they;

A. Continue to base take with large numbers and futher refine the process with more numbers or specialized missions.

B. Get bored of base taking.

C. Get tired of being smacked around by experienced sticks and approach a friendly one to teach them.

D. Decide to approach the game from a new perspective, often through scenarios or some other event.
_____________________________ _

It drives me crazy seeing newer flyers within AH taking the easy way out and staying within the huge horde squads. I wish I could take every new guy within AH and show him the freedom of being able to fight and not have to rely on the mob to protect him.

Aces High is a lot like golf, it is a test of personal ability and watching the ability grow and mature from within. Frankly, I don't care if you are a level bomber, a tanker, a furballer, or a tank plinker; just be good at what you do and realize you don't need 30 others guys around you to affect the game.

That said, there are very few I honor within Aces High and those gents I've known for well over 10 years (people like Corky, Silat, Fencer). I respect many that don't share my view of how Aces High so long as they reciprocate; don't hide in the horde or ruin the few good fights the rest of us can find on the map.

That said, have you spent anytime with someone who can show you some moves in the DA, Bmwgs? The joy of base taking can't even compare to taking on multiple cons by yourself and winning. Until you have tasted that freedom, you haven't really experienced Aces High, imho...

Let me know, I'd be more than happy to teach you the little I know.


Thanks for your response.  Delirium, you seem to think that I fly in a hord all the time.  Well if that is the case I sure wish they were there when I had my arse handed me on a platter several times today.

You seemed to direct your response to me personally about my experience and ability.  In fact I can tell you I really don't know where I stand.  I can tell you what my score is, but that really doesn't mean anything, because a few off hour bombing missions can keep that pretty low.   I do think my ability is improving because I rarely get killed in the first turn.  Still happens, but not as often.  I have worked in the TA where I have spent some time once with ghost (sp) and the other with mtnman (sp).  Both were very helpfull.  I have also received advise from friend and foe.

As for the DA, Well the couple time I have gone in there I was hoed, picked, ramed, and gang banged.  I can get this in the MA.  I guess you think I just fly with a hord all day, well sorry that is not the case.  My intent of this thread was not really about me being in a squad but to try to understand the thinking or logic of some of the older vets.

As for the offer to teach me "the little" of what you know.  I'm on-line all the time.  If you kill me or see me on-line give me a shout I would be honored to be a student of your knowledge.

Fred  
Title: Re: Respect - Honor - Fair Play
Post by: gpwurzel on January 02, 2009, 04:18:31 AM
Personally I treat others how I would expect to be treated.

I try not to ho, however, if you open up on me on the merge, if I've got guns on, i'll fire back

I'll go pick a fight anywhere in anything (listening to my squaddies laughing at me when I tell them where I am, and how many I enemy I have around me lol)

I dont call people out on 200, tho I have asked them what plane they were in, how did they do that etc etc, and for the most part, I get polite responses etc (tho there is always someone who misconstrues what I typed doh)

I love this game - I love the fact I can up any plane in the set and find a fight (even if I lose). However, what makes it even more fun, is the people that fly/fight etc - beating/losing to a human opponent is the epitomy of fun to me - can I beat him/her or will I get my backside handed to me (normally the latter lol)

If I see a nme con already I will ask if they need help - if they dont respond and I see that they are losing, I might engage, unless there are loads around him already looking for the kill. If I see an nme unengaged, I will surely drop in and try (emphasis on try) to kill him.

At the end of the day, its a game, no-one really dies from being shot down in this virtual world, no-one gets injured etc - have fun, and enjoy it.

<S>

Wurzel
Title: Re: Respect - Honor - Fair Play
Post by: Sloehand on January 02, 2009, 04:27:10 AM
Having only read the conversation and topic as displayed in this thread, I'd like add these observations, even though I'm somewhat guessing at what the connotation of respect, honor and fairplay are as defined in previous discussion.  

Respect should be initially given in some small measure simply because the other player is like you.  He enjoys flying, fighting and AH.  He may be something of a flight buff, WWII buff, or just someone who enjoys the game or gaming.  

To illustrate, I ride Harleys exclusively in real life.  To me they are the only ride and I don't understand why others would want to ride any other type of bike.  However, regardless of the machine, we all love cruising the open road and we all experience the same dangers of the road.  So while I may not understand, or closely identify with non-Harley riders, I always give them respect for what we do have in common.  It's the same for me in AH.

Honor is a tough one to evaluate in a war game.  We are really not afforded any great opportunities for displays of honor or chivalry.  Therefore, I equate honor somewhat with a person's type of gameplay.  Now this is a tough one because on one hand everyone pays their $15 and has the right to play the game as they want.  I advocate this as a general rule.  On the other hand, I have little respect nor think there is much honor in those who clearly game-the-game for purpose of score.  As in flying a few dozen missions in a fighter scored as a fighter, then flying every other fighter sortie scored a Attack, simply to skew the player's score.  It's not cheating, but it's not really honorable either.  Admittedly, for this type of thing, there can be a fine line that's hard to define for everyone.  In such a case, some might find a player is just being clever and appropriately gaining an edge, while others might find the same action wrong and underhanded.  Ergo, the eternal arguement.

Fairplay to me is also about gameplay.  Many play this game differently, and want different experiences and types of enjoyment out of it.  BaldEagl talked about 1 v. 3, then 4 and 5, but what wasn't clear to me is, where did this happen?  If I'm defending a base from attack, even initially with just a small number of bandits (and I don't how many more may be soon to arrive), I want bandits down fast to prepare for the next wave.  1 v. 1 chivalry duels are out the window in that case, unless the friendly wants it that way and can call everyone else off.  Otherwise, the proper tactic is 'reasonable' gangbang, or rather stacking the odds in your favor to end the fight quickly, then gain alt for the next group of bad guys.

On the other hand, finding a 1 v. 1 or 2 battle between bases, where nothing tactically critical is in peril, honor and fairplay would be nice.  If I don't know the engaged friendly, I try to make a point to ask if assistance is needed before piling in.  But in a war game simulation, with opposing sides battling it out, and so many involved in the 'war' aspect of the game rather than just dogfighting, it seems silly to expect some medieval jousting scenario with additional challengers on the sideline patiently waiting to battle the winner of the current 1 v. 1 fight.  Right or wrong, good or bad, HiTech developed this into a war game, that features WWII air combat simulation, but that's no longer what it is exclusively about.

Finally, about attitudes and courtesy.  Too many people offer the excuse "it's only a game" to validate their poor behavior and attitude after they trash, bait or bad mouth people on 200.  While we are playing a 'game', we are doing it with real people, using time from our 'real' lives.  We bring our real feelings with us.  We are engaged in a competition and a social activity at the same time, neither of which is it considered honorable or courteous to engage in disrepectful bad behavior.  

Unfortunate, many with very shaky egos see this as the perfect place to 'act out' their darker side with seemingly no consequences.  For myself, what repect, honor and fairplay in AH means to me is, applying the same courtesy and manners as I would in real life, facing another player over a chessboard, or pool table, or on a soccer pitch.  The anonymity afforded by the Internet too often brings out the worst in some people's nature, that which they hide in real life due to the social ostracism that might occur if displayed in public, or to family and friends.

At least this is my story and I'm sticking to it.   :aok

  
Title: Re: Respect - Honor - Fair Play
Post by: Delirium on January 02, 2009, 04:28:50 AM
As for the DA, Well the couple time I have gone in there I was hoed, picked, ramed, and gang banged.  I can get this in the MA.

If I show you anything, it won't be the cesspool of the furball area of the DA, it has been corrupted and is a pick/run fest. We would do 1v1s at a side field or spend time in the TA.
Title: Re: Respect - Honor - Fair Play
Post by: bmwgs on January 02, 2009, 04:36:52 AM
If I show you anything, it won't be the cesspool of the furball area of the DA, it has been corrupted and is a pick/run fest. We would do 1v1s at a side field or spend time in the TA.

I don't want to impose on you, so anytime you see me on, and you have the time, shoot (i mean send) me a pm and I will gladly meet up with you.   :)

Thanks,

Fred
Title: Re: Respect - Honor - Fair Play
Post by: AWwrgwy on January 02, 2009, 05:22:34 AM


5. He finds a squad of like minded individuals, and with enough of them, they begin to feel as though they are unstoppable. They ridicule everyone they steam roll and avoid those they can't gang easily enough.
--------


This is what I feel was the whole gist of the previous locked thread and why it devolved into a thread about honor and fair play.  It wasn't about "who's better".  It was a "look at us" thread.  When you start a thread like that you don't always get the kind of attention you want.

I know you didn't start that other thread bmwgs, but you ended up having to defend yourself and your squad in more ways than one. 


Great post beemer. Hopefully it will stay civil.

I've been playing flight sims for 12 years or more. The term honorable is elusive to me. The other day I saw a duel going on between a countryman and a knight. I asked if he needed help. He said no. So I stayed out. That's honorable. But if he lost I was going in. Is that honorable! Many will say no. For one I had no idea how the fight developed. Did the con come in with alt. Did the con have a superior plane. Heck I didn't look to see what the friendly was flying.

Nothing wrong with going in after they are done.  Fight's on, again.  Nothing wrong with going in if your countryman ask for help either, I believe. 

Quote
Is spying honorable. Nope. Yet about every country did it in WWII.

There are usually consequences to spying.  Taking a risk to get information.  You get caught, you get hung.  Here there are no risks nor are there consequences.  Just because "every country did it" doesn't make it OK.  It all comes down to the honor system.

Quote
Is shooting down a glider honorable. Some will say no? What if the guy calls out no ammo? Should you shoot him down anyway. Some will say no and others yes. Personally I will shoot either plane down. Reason: They should have managed their resources better and why should they get a free pass out after attacking our countrymen or our base. BTW, we use to do that back in AW. That is give free pass. I remember the turning point for me though very clearly. I saw a low con coming in and he said that he was out of ammo. So I let him go. He landed 12 kills and AW didn't have a rearm pad. So I looked at the after action reports. He had been shooting down his own squaddie to get better fighter ranking.

Like you said, he should have managed his resources better, or run sooner.  If he still had ammo or fuel, and you were RTB, would he let you go?  If he had ammo or fuel and were fighting someone else, would he not jump in?


Quote
Respect I do understand and is not elusive. Respect is when you give a check 6 and thank those that give it to you. Respect is when you refrain from flaming another and when you <S> the guy that shot you down in a good fight. Respect is when you pick someone and don't hale it over the country channel.

Respect is earned based on all of your actions not just the Salutes and Check 6's.

Quote
Respect is to treat others the way you want to be treated.

Respect for others as well as yourself is treating them as you want to be treated.  Conversely, this does not include, "well, they did it" about things you do not like.  It is kind of where the "it's my $15" argument breaks down.  Put yourself in the other guy's shoes every once in a while.  Look at things from the other side.




wrongway




Title: Re: Respect - Honor - Fair Play
Post by: Guppy35 on January 02, 2009, 06:50:19 AM
Respect always comes back to me in how a person contributes to the game and the AH community overall.  Maybe for an old timer like me, it's different then for a younger kid in here.  I remember lying on my bed as a kid looking at the models hanging from the ceiling that I'd put there to show me pretend air combat, and wishing I could get inside them to pretend.  I never thought the day would come where I could do just that.  Along comes AW and I'm flying against real people and finding folks with a shared interest in getting better at the game and helping each other learn.

Those guys helped me find my perspective on the game and also made it important that we ty and pass that on.

What worries me is that folks don't seem to see their place and their responsibility to the AH community overall.  They tend to demand recognition, and only look at what they can take from the game and not what they can contribute.  They see score, or winning the map as a sign of their skill and their status and again it's at the expense of the overall gameplay experience for everyone.

It's the old Jack Kennedy inauguration speech.   Ask not what AH has done for you.  Instead ask what you've done for AH?

The thread where the two squads were being compared was a perfect example of this.  Honor in hording bases.  No thanks.

Maybe the thread should be what have you given back.  Think of all those folks who work on the skins for the different birds.  Think of the guys who spend hours making maps, designing FSOs, Snapshots, Scenarios.  What about the folks that take the time to help the newbies learn

And think of those folks you run into out there in a fight, who don't live or die over the fact that they might lose their cartoon lives, instead giving you a good fight, win or lose, and are cordial on 200 afterward saluting your effort or offering advice on what you might have done different to affect the outcome.   

That's the respect, honor, fair play crowd, of which there are many.  They don't grief fights just to ruin them.  They don't game the game in the name of attaboys, and they realize that we're all just a bunch of folks sitting by our computers trying to chase our imaginations in a world of WW2 aviation.

It sometimes feels like those folks get lost in the crowd,but they're still there, doing thier part.  One hopes that the newer players pick up on their example and contribute to AH as well.  It can happen, but it takes all of us as players looking past our selfish, whats in it for me approach, and taking it to what's in it for all of us and how do we make it work best for all of us.

Title: Re: Respect - Honor - Fair Play
Post by: Hajo on January 02, 2009, 07:32:51 AM
Dan and Del.....well put.

I've been playing (yes playing) with on-line flight sims for a long time.  I like Dan, built and imagined flying these prop driven monsters from a young age.  We had an Air Force Base 8 miles from our home. (we still do).
In the 50s' and 60s' we had commercial aircraft there also. We also had F80s, F84s and finally F102s and 106s.  My father frequently took me to the airport just to watch them and land.  What a thrill.

Imagine what I thought when I found out I could do this on a PC!  I was in Heaven.  When I first started I knew nothing and got sent to the tower quickly.  People helped me and I progressed to not getting to the tower as quickly.  I still get sent to the tower now on a regular basis.  However my outlook has changed.
Before I had to be number 1 in fighters (younger of course) I accomplished that .  Now....I just play to fight or start one.  Geez......for 14.95 I can wreck all the aircraft I want!  The fight is the key and the respect for your opponent is important.  Fun is the driving factor.  Always will be for me. 

I find myself flying less......logging on to look at the map, finding 3 grids full of hordes and logging off.

I now wait anxiously for FSOs' ,Snapshots, and mainly Scenarios'.  I also enjoy helping others in the game.
When I am asked I will do my best to help someone new or a vet.  Hand asked me for help with some pointers on the P47.  He switched sides and never left.......he joined our squad The Flying Circus. Guppy I am sorry, he doesn't,t fly the P38 much anymore...if  ever  ;)

Honor and respect is earned.  Helping the community is a start.  And realizing that in the end.....it still is just a game.

Title: Re: Respect - Honor - Fair Play
Post by: 1pLUs44 on January 02, 2009, 07:34:41 AM


It drives me crazy seeing newer flyers within AH taking the easy way out and staying within the huge horde squads. I wish I could take every new guy within AH and show him the freedom of being able to fight and not have to rely on the mob to protect him.

Aces High is a lot like golf, it is a test of personal ability and watching the ability grow and mature from within. Frankly, I don't care if you are a level bomber, a tanker, a furballer, or a tank plinker; just be good at what you do and realize you don't need 30 others guys around you to affect the game.

I'd hate to say this, but most large squads don't "hide behind the horde" with eachother. If they like to do NOE's, it's not a 24 hr 366 day a year thing you know. I usually see about 10 missions a night, when it's most packed. Out of that, I usually see 5 or 6 work. The other 4 or 5 get busted.
Title: Re: Respect - Honor - Fair Play
Post by: fudgums on January 02, 2009, 07:39:55 AM
I'd hate to say this, but most large squads don't "hide behind the horde" with eachother. If they like to do NOE's, it's not a 24 hr 366 day a year thing you know. I usually see about 10 missions a night, when it's most packed. Out of that, I usually see 5 or 6 work. The other 4 or 5 get busted.

Fly Knits...there are no missions  :lol
Title: Re: Respect - Honor - Fair Play
Post by: Ghosth on January 02, 2009, 07:50:33 AM
Well speaking as one of the "vets" who's been here pretty much since it started.

There is much that has changed.
Was there more "honor" back in the early days, with perhaps 150 active players that all knew each other? It was a much smaller community, with a much smaller planeset, a smaller terrain. When someone got a kill, it showed up on the text bufferer. So it was pretty easy to tell when that enemy p51 was Hangtime.

As a direct result, it was easier to be more "honorable" Havn't just seen him take out 3 or 4 other guys, it was easier to say "go land em hangtime, I'll be here when you get back". So it happened more often.


Much has changed, heck the very world we live in has changed.
AH is a great place to work out some frustration and agression.


Respect is complicated. In part its like putting bread out on the waters.
You just keep giveing it, putting it out there, spreading it around. And someday IF you don't screw it up, it will come back to you. Now if you lose your cool, blow your top, get pissy with people, you lose that, and you start back at square one.

Yes in part respect needs to be earned. But how do you show a bunch of new people how to give, and get respect unless you give them some first? You have to prime the pump. You have to get them hooked on it. You have to teach them the finer points.

Part of the problem I think is that the turnover rate is exceeding the education rate. Thats not something the trainer corps can address. Thats something the community needs to adress.

The other thing that enters into the equation, is that people are different.

In the first 5 years of AH, if you saw someone under 18 in AH, chances were he was bright, intelligent, driven, mature, and willing to work hard to succeed and fit in.

Now the younger people I see joining AH are not that bright, incabable or unwilling to read, have no interest in learning, or fitting in. They just want to game, and they don't care HOW they do it.

By their standards, they have honor of a sort. But by ours, they have none, and this is a big part of where the conflict lies.


Title: Re: Respect - Honor - Fair Play
Post by: CAP1 on January 02, 2009, 07:56:15 AM
Great post beemer. Hopefully it will stay civil.

I've been playing flight sims for 12 years or more. The term honorable is elusive to me. The other day I saw a duel going on between a countryman and a knight. I asked if he needed help. He said no. So I stayed out. That's honorable. But if he lost I was going in. Is that honorable! Many will say no. For one I had no idea how the fight developed. Did the con come in with alt. Did the con have a superior plane. Heck I didn't look to see what the friendly was flying.i always ask before interfering....no answer, i come into it........tell me to stay out, i stay out.

Is spying honorable. Nope. Yet about every country did it in WWII. and pretty many do it here too. i just saw an example of it in MW a couple nights ago.

Is shooting down a glider honorable. Some will say no? What if the guy calls out no ammo? back in AW3, a few of us used to exit the fight, when the other called no ammo. i no longer do, thanks to people like seighn. Should you shoot him down anyway. Some will say no and others yes. Personally I will shoot either plane down. Reason: They should have managed their resources better and why should they get a free pass out after attacking our countrymen or our base. BTW, we use to do that back in AW. That is give free pass. I remember the turning point for me though very clearly. I saw a low con coming in and he said that he was out of ammo. So I let him go. He landed 12 kills and AW didn't have a rearm pad. So I looked at the after action reports. He had been shooting down his own squaddie to get better fighter ranking.

Respect I do understand and is not elusive. Respect is when you give a check 6 and thank those that give it to you. Respect is when you refrain from flaming another and when you <S> the guy that shot you down in a good fight. Respect is when you pick someone and don't hale it over the country channel. Respect is to treat others the way you want to be treated.

Fair play I will leave for others. That is just as elusive as honor.fair is easy.......if your the 1 in a 1 vs many....anything goes.....if your one of the many, then maybe you should back off, and let the one have a chance, especially if it only started as a 1vs1 or 2. if it is onlyt a 1 vs 1, then avoid the face shooting, ramming, etc. chances are good you don't really need to do it. if you were just fighting in a furball between two bases, no near any ack, and get shot down, when you come back, there's no need to come back at 20k when the fights down at 3 to 5k or lower.  

Addendum: There is not much fair about this game. It's really more about freedom than fairness. The freedom to choose what you want to do and what to do it in. For the most part you can choose the situation you want to be in or the situation you want to avoid. For instance if there is a large horde and not many friendlies you don't have to fly to defend. You can sit in a manned ack or up a gv or just avoid the area. Better yet just fly on the fringes of the horde and drag one out. Still though if you go to the level of pilot vs pilot, plane vs plane there will never be fair play. It's not even possible.
Title: Re: Respect - Honor - Fair Play
Post by: Bruv119 on January 02, 2009, 07:56:46 AM

In the first 5 years of AH, if you saw someone under 18 in AH, chances were he was bright, intelligent, driven, mature, and willing to work hard to succeed and fit in.

Now the younger people I see joining AH are not that bright, incabable or unwilling to read, have no interest in learning, or fitting in. They just want to game, and they don't care HOW they do it.

By their standards, they have honor of a sort. But by ours, they have none, and this is a big part of where the conflict lies.


I wouldnt just single out under 18's with that brush i've seen countless "adults" behave just as bad when it comes to respect.
Title: Re: Respect - Honor - Fair Play
Post by: Bronk on January 02, 2009, 08:07:09 AM
I hate to bring this up again, I feel as though I am wasting my time. You view this game a certain way that is vastly different from my own, but this is how I view the game when looking at a new player.

(I posted this in a different forum)
_____________________________ _____________

1. Guy starts AH, has no clue what to do.

2. He finds the ACM/Dogfighting skill curve too steep, decides to affect the game the only way he can; bombing.

3. He starts off with heavy fighters, most often augering in the process of hitting the target.

4. He moves on to heavy bombers, not always learning how to use the bomb site.

5. He finds a squad of like minded individuals, and with enough of them, they begin to feel as though they are unstoppable. They ridicule everyone they steam roll and avoid those they can't gang easily enough.
--------

At this point they;

A. Continue to base take with large numbers and futher refine the process with more numbers or specialized missions.

B. Get bored of base taking.

C. Get tired of being smacked around by experienced sticks and approach a friendly one to teach them.

D. Decide to approach the game from a new perspective, often through scenarios or some other event.
_____________________________ _

It drives me crazy seeing newer flyers within AH taking the easy way out and staying within the huge horde squads. I wish I could take every new guy within AH and show him the freedom of being able to fight and not have to rely on the mob to protect him.

Aces High is a lot like golf, it is a test of personal ability and watching the ability grow and mature from within. Frankly, I don't care if you are a level bomber, a tanker, a furballer, or a tank plinker; just be good at what you do and realize you don't need 30 others guys around you to affect the game.

That said, there are very few I honor within Aces High and those gents I've known for well over 10 years (people like Corky, Silat, Fencer). I respect many that don't share my view of how Aces High so long as they reciprocate; don't hide in the horde or ruin the few good fights the rest of us can find on the map.

That said, have you spent anytime with someone who can show you some moves in the DA, Bmwgs? The joy of base taking can't even compare to taking on multiple cons by yourself and winning. Until you have tasted that freedom, you haven't really experienced Aces High, imho...

Let me know, I'd be more than happy to teach you the little I know.


Brilliant.
Title: Re: Respect - Honor - Fair Play
Post by: 1pLUs44 on January 02, 2009, 08:21:46 AM
I wouldnt just single out under 18's with that brush i've seen countless "adults" behave just as bad when it comes to respect.

Some of the worst people in the game, when it comes to negativety and "downing" other players, are adults. Tripl5 (triplcry), SkyRock (used to be, but he's gotten much better) and more.
Title: Re: Respect - Honor - Fair Play
Post by: thndregg on January 02, 2009, 08:49:47 AM
My definition of respect:

I treat others with respect regardless of whether I am acquainted with them through the internet or face to face.. In my opinion, this game is a very good environment in that it shows how someone really acts toward others they most likely will never meet in person. I do not associate with those that insult with anonymity. I respect those that can have differences in opinion still be civil about it.
Title: Re: Respect - Honor - Fair Play
Post by: Dawger on January 02, 2009, 08:54:43 AM
The notion that there is a "right" or "wrong" way to play this game will eventually destroy the game itself.

I fly all different styles at one point or another. I enjoy some more than others and some I don't do more than once a year because i don't like them.

A few nights ago I was participating in the mindless low level furball that Guppy and Delirium enjoy so much. They were in the same fight and we communicated on the same channel. Everyone seemed to be having fun although some of the 38 drivers were complaining about not finding their exact version of a "good fight". They post here about not wanting to save their own skins but it was fairly obvious they did as I saw multiple landings of multiple kills and lots of back patting. There is nothing wrong with that (in fact I enjoy it still after all these years of online flying) but if you profess to not care about not landing kills, then don't land any.( I like to land, kills or not. My real world flying job stresses the importance of landing and I guess it carries over. I don't even like to bounce landing online if I'm not under pressure to land.) Its much faster to get back into the fight if you simply split S into the ground. So posting here about the honor and glory of the fight with no regard for recognition and then landing multiple kill sorties in a low level furball repeatedly is a little hypocritical. (Yea, I know y'all are going to be mad at me now but this "my way is better than your way" is not a good thing)

Yesterday I participated in a sneak attack mission on the guys in it were having a blast coordinating the effort of ground and air forces to effect the quick destruction and capture of a base. Can't fault them for their fun.

My squadron usually flies from a base a little to the rear, grabs altitude, fights on the edge of the fight and we begin our egress when the numbers look to be overwhelming. We like to fly as a team and land as a team. The boss loves to see multiple kills sorties landed by everyone in the sortie. I consider it a a personal failure if I let one of my squad mates die during a sortie. That's my thing and that's our squadron thing.

That doesn't mean we don't go out and furball on the deck willy-nilly occasionally. Its not my favorite thing to do because it is more like dodging traffic on the interstate than 3-D aerial combat but I enjoy it occasionally and it sharpens up the SA. I much prefer evenly matched unit engagements initiated at real world altitudes. Nothing better than an X v X between two squads that work well together. Also very hard to find these days.

Some of my best online memories are me and a wingman against  the best 190 wing pair I've ever seen slugging it out for 30 minutes without ever getting a guns solution or letting the fight degenerate into the low level, low speed circle jerk that (to me) indicates poor head work. (Note: this is my opinion and what I think is fun. YMMV)

Everybody has preferences for gameplay. None are better than others. Implying that another player is somehow inferior because he chooses to play in a different manner does not help the game.

The style I fly with my squadmates is commonly referred to as "alt-monkey, cherry picking, gang bangers". The CO and I are rather proud of it because that is exactly what we want our guys to do. Go in with altitude, fight as a team (one guy distracts the bandit while his wingman kills him. One of my dicta in a multiple bandit engagement is to pressure a bandit that is pressuring a squadmate. If you are after a bandit that is not offensive on a friendly you are in a drag and bag.) and choose fights that leave open an egress. We preach planning your egress before you roll into a fight. We preach not getting anchored in a knife fight. We have a written doctrine on how to "run away". Its called egress under pressure and works fairly well as a fighting egress allowing us to clear each other without getting anchored. Its what I like and its what the CO likes. We have been doing it for years. And we catch a lot of insults in Aces High.

And that leads me to my final point. We came to Aces High with about 20 active squadron players a few years ago. We now half less than half of that number. I cannot say the specific reason why that is so.

But I can say the constant whining about different styles of game play on country, 200 and vox gets very tiresome for me. Eventually all that will remain are those who are doing the whining.

There is no honor involved in an online game. Honor requires that you stand to lose something or take something away from someone.

Fair play means equal opportunity not equal result and there is every opportunity for fair play in every sortie.

Title: Re: Respect - Honor - Fair Play
Post by: CAP1 on January 02, 2009, 08:58:13 AM
My definition of respect:

I treat others with respect regardless of whether I am acquainted with them through the internet or face to face.. In my opinion, this game is a very good environment in that it shows how someone really acts toward others they most likely will never meet in person. I do not associate with those that insult with anonymity. I respect those that can have differences in opinion still be civil about it.
you are correct....this game overall, is a good place.

i don't treat everyone with respect though. you want it, you have to earn it, or give it. i treat people in here just as i would if they were in the same room with me. you treat me like crap, i treat u that way. you treat me with respect, then i do the same.
 pretty simple really.
Title: Re: Respect - Honor - Fair Play
Post by: Bronk on January 02, 2009, 09:00:20 AM
you are correct....this game overall, is a good place.

i don't treat everyone with respect though. you want it, you have to earn it, or give it. i treat people in here just as i would if they were in the same room with me. you treat me like crap, i treat u that way. you treat me with respect, then i do the same.
 pretty simple really.
Tard  :P :D
Title: Re: Respect - Honor - Fair Play
Post by: The Fugitive on January 02, 2009, 09:16:26 AM
I'd hate to say this, but most large squads don't "hide behind the horde" with eachother. If they like to do NOE's, it's not a 24 hr 366 day a year thing you know. I usually see about 10 missions a night, when it's most packed. Out of that, I usually see 5 or 6 work. The other 4 or 5 get busted.

In that other thread I pointed out that I was CO of the Mafia for a couple of years and that we ran missions from NOEs to multipronged attacks that dominated maps on squad nights. The bold comment above is what we are talking about. In our "hay-day" in a 3 hour squad night we might run ONE NOE. Today its become the mission of choice. The second point about the above comment is the poster is DEFENDING the hiding ing the horde and NOE's shows that he doesn't understand the idea some of us are trying to get across.

Look at it this way... Noe's are fun, easy, and "5 or 6 out of 10" work, but should you run them that often? When you play chess against a 5 year old nephew do you try to blow him out of the water, or do you play to have fun with your nephew? Humble/snaphook is a perfect example. He takes up A20s, SBDs and so on and takes them into furballs why? Because its more fun for all concerned. Using a weak plane makes it more of a challenge for him, and his opponents have more fun trying to shoot him down because they stand a chance seeing he is in a weak plane. If snap gets in a pony, and Bnz 98% people he comes up against will be grabbing a new plane in the tower mighty quick. To him thats not fun...just to easy killing all those baby seals.... and to those of us who path he crossed.... not fun finding our way to the tower every time. So he changes the way he plays the game to make it more fun.

I don't see where running from a fight is fun, or being the 3rd, 4th, or 5th guy in on a single target is fun, attacking an undefended base from an NOE with 30 other guys is fun. Can someone honestly say any of that is fun? This is a game and is suppose to be fun. This is not a war, and comparing it to real life is just stupid. None of this is "win or die" like real life. If you have to swap side to spy then you are not PLAYING the game, your cheating and going outside the rules. Whats the point of playing if you don't play fair?

Respect, honor, and fair play. I think is something that has been lacking for a long time. Mostly its because they just don't understand. Todays "gamers" are just that, gamers! Most are kids and are only here to WIN ! they come from games that most of the players spend as much time looking for cheat codes as they do playing the game. The "old timers/vets" are people who were drawn into this game and others like it because of the history, and those old kid dreams we had of flying and fighting in these planes. Us "vets" can explain how it was, or about honor and fair play untill we are blue in the face, but the "gamers" like the one I quoted above will never get it ( not picking on you 1plus44 ) they where brought up thinking a game is a game and thats the way they play it, win at all costs. Us old timers look at this as more of a fantasy land where we can relive those old dreams and fly along side "pappy" and Olds" and all the others we read about or saw on the movies.

If you don't go into a fight and whether you win or loose you don't come out with your heart pounding, or your hands shaking you'll never understand. Making your bomb run with your plane bouncing around in the flack and making it out only to be attacked by a few fighters, limping home with an engine out and two more smoking, and again, sitting on the runway with your hands shaking, you'll never understand. If I could GV as well as someone like DR7 ( nothing against DR7, I just think he's one of the best) I wouldn't spawn camp, nor would I sit at a base waiting for GVs to roll in. I'd sit out in the countryside on the route I knew they would take in (most follow a strait path from spawn to target  :rolleyes: ) and I shot a warning shot across the front of their tank from hiding. Then give them a minute to find me before I killed them How much fun would that be!

The fun of this game is the fight, which ever fight your into, fight! Honor is calling out that guy from the other side and saying"Great Fight !" whether you win or loose. Fair Play is making it fun for everyone. Ya I can take 30 guys and take base after base if I want to, but how much fun is that really? It's like that game with your nephew again.... ya you could, but SHOULD you? Respect, is given to those who make the game fun, not to those who have to bend the rules, or break them just to "win".   
Title: Re: Respect - Honor - Fair Play
Post by: BaldEagl on January 02, 2009, 09:40:11 AM
From BaldEagl:

Do you understand now?


This is a question I'm not sure how to take.  One part says your being sarcastic, where the other side of me is saying your just asking a question.  Can't really respond to this until I understand the actual intent.

It was just meant as punctuation to my comments regarding your questions about the topic although in retrospect it may have come off as a little harsh and probably should have been left out.

Great post Del.
Title: Re: Respect - Honor - Fair Play
Post by: BnZs on January 02, 2009, 09:47:17 AM
I've got to chime in here on something OT...

If the majority of the playerbase thinks the number of NOEs we have in the MA are excessive, that they are an unrealistic mission profile to use 90% of the time, that other styles lead to more fun and more historical matchups, I agree!

However, as with every other problem that is disliked by the majority, the playerbase seems unwilling to make any changes to do anything about it, such as making DAR extend all the way to the ground, etc.


In our "hay-day" in a 3 hour squad night we might run ONE NOE. Today its become the mission of choice. T
Title: Re: Respect - Honor - Fair Play
Post by: CAP1 on January 02, 2009, 09:52:39 AM
Tard  :P :D
:rofl
Title: Re: Respect - Honor - Fair Play
Post by: CAP1 on January 02, 2009, 09:54:15 AM
I've got to chime in here on something OT...

If the majority of the playerbase thinks the number of NOEs we have in the MA are excessive, that they are an unrealistic mission profile to use 90% of the time, that other styles lead to more fun and more historical matchups, I agree!

However, as with every other problem that is disliked by the majority, the playerbase seems unwilling to make any changes to do anything about it, such as making DAR extend all the way to the ground, etc.



KNOW WHAT my favorite thing about NOE raids are? i don't have to waste 15 minutes climbing out of the cartoon atmosphere to get to the fight. it;s right in the weeds, where it shoudl be.  :D
Title: Re: Respect - Honor - Fair Play
Post by: NoBaddy on January 02, 2009, 09:59:29 AM
Good thread. Since I was the one that Fred was talking about with the name calling, I will keep my comments to a minimum. All of my points have been more than adequately made by other players.  :salute

Fred...

I will send you a private.

 
Title: Re: Respect - Honor - Fair Play
Post by: Shane on January 02, 2009, 10:03:57 AM
I see the repeated theme of, "if you see a 2 v 1, no need to make it 3-4-5-6 v 1 if it's not directly related to some base op in progress, ie, off to the side or away from a major-ish furball."  And, frankly, it's poor tactics.

This has been pretty much my most consistent gripe over the years, senseless gangbanging a fight in progress - trust me even "vets" do this thing, I can easily dig up posts from 2002-04 showing this.  I can understand newbies doing this since they don't really know better and are only wanting to kill something - I rarely go after this type of player, instead focusing my infamous smack at the "semi-vets and vets" who one would think would know better by now.  I aim for their egos.  :aok  When I hit my target, they may end up in the DA with me, learning how to fight without having to rely on #'s.

meh... it's an issue going back even further than AH's appearance on the scene, but the bottom line is by doing senseless gangbanging you're taking away the fun/learning experience of *all* those involved in the 1 v 1 or 2 v 1.  I mean jeez, if 2 guys get killed while on 1 guy... they should have learned something, but when the 3-4-5th guys jump in those 2 original badguys learn nothing, except that gangbanging is "ok." Of course that lone goodguy just had a fighting fun chance reduced to practically zero.

But, hey... it's their dime and they can play how they want, right? If they want to remain stuck on suck, who am I to argue?  That doesn't mean I still won't point it out with my usual brand of smack. :aok  Most of the ch200 gabbering is when the offending player(s) try and defend their actions - more or less even gangbanging on ch200, lol.  Yet, it's always the original "victim of lameness" that gets come down on for pointing this behavior out, as opposed to being supported with "yeah, why did you guys have to gangbang that guy? That's not cool!"  What does this imply?  What are newbies taking away from this silent endorsement?  

You reap what you sow.


Title: Re: Respect - Honor - Fair Play
Post by: A8TOOL on January 02, 2009, 10:38:20 AM
Interesting subject but some darn long reads.

Respect:  treat others as you want to be treated. Criticize others in a helpful way if you feel the need to criticize. Understand that everyone does not play like you (ie. furball, land grabber, picker, overly cautious with pretend life )

Avoid repeated ho attempts, learn how to fly in the game.

Avoid ramming as a offense or defensive strategy.

Avoid running from other players 1 vs. 1 to make it a 3-4 vs 1 so that you can feel good about yourself if you get the kill. 



Avoid shooting into planes that are already falling to the ground to steal someone else's kill.


Honor: Pretty much covered in what not to do. Come into the game with fair play in mind. We are all here to have fun and not be badgered.  Take the time to help others learn the game. Avoid gang banging and give a guy a break once in awhile.

Title: Re: Respect - Honor - Fair Play
Post by: BnZs on January 02, 2009, 10:50:07 AM
KNOW WHAT my favorite thing about NOE raids are? i don't have to waste 15 minutes climbing out of the cartoon atmosphere to get to the fight. it;s right in the weeds, where it shoudl be.  :D

LOL, the whole point of an NOE raid is to NOT have to fight you. Should you get lucky, find and intercept one in time, don't hang around after looking for more bandits. They've gone looking for another undefended base.

Sir, 15 minutes of climb in the slowest climbing fighters will put you at 30K. Objecting to 15 minutes of climbing might be valid, objecting to 3-4 minutes borders on ADD.

A huge portion of the inanity, hording, and the same set of planes having all of the edges all of the time in the MA is the fact that it really is almost all "in the weeds". There is nothing wrong with dogfighting at low altitude of course but variety, fun, and historical interest would be better served if *something* was done to promote more high-altitude dogfights, not the opposite.
Title: Re: Respect - Honor - Fair Play
Post by: Lusche on January 02, 2009, 11:00:10 AM
Sir, 15 minutes of climb in the slowest climbing fighters will put you at 30K. Objecting to 15 minutes of climbing might be valid, objecting to 3-4 minutes borders on ADD.

And there is even a way to climb for 15 mins in spite of having ADD:

alt-tab



Otherwise I wouldn't be able to play this game :D
Title: Re: Respect - Honor - Fair Play
Post by: 442w30 on January 02, 2009, 11:19:13 AM
And there is even a way to climb for 15 mins in spite of having ADD:

alt-tab



Otherwise I wouldn't be able to play this game :D

alt-tab and then post to the forum?  :)


Title: Re: Respect - Honor - Fair Play
Post by: Lusche on January 02, 2009, 11:21:10 AM
alt-tab and then post to the forum?  :)





or enjoying adult entertainment  :)
Title: Re: Respect - Honor - Fair Play
Post by: CAP1 on January 02, 2009, 11:26:22 AM
LOL, the whole point of an NOE raid is to NOT have to fight you. Should you get lucky, find and intercept one in time, don't hang around after looking for more bandits. They've gone looking for another undefended base.

Sir, 15 minutes of climb in the slowest climbing fighters will put you at 30K. Objecting to 15 minutes of climbing might be valid, objecting to 3-4 minutes borders on ADD.

A huge portion of the inanity, hording, and the same set of planes having all of the edges all of the time in the MA is the fact that it really is almost all "in the weeds". There is nothing wrong with dogfighting at low altitude of course but variety, fun, and historical interest would be better served if *something* was done to promote more high-altitude dogfights, not the opposite.


well, i was sorta exagarating about the time to climb to make a point......although last night, in a fight that was taking place just below 5k, i had been repeatedly picked by a con that appeared to be around 8-12k. so i upped from another base, came in around 12 or 13k.....guess where the bandit was? about 18k. i managed to evade 2 attacks, and fell prey on the third.
 now on a different note, the "hit" sounds in twinbooms soundpack are pretty dam cool.  :D

you are right, that too much fightng takes place low alt.......but to some of us, that's where the fun is. for me, lately, it's tryng to figure out how the hell to make a 38 turn with a spit...and i know it can be done. i've seen it. i've had guys in 38's outturn my hellkitty, spit, and almost outturn my zeek on occasion. i love the 38, and will figure out how to fight in it sooner or later. once i learn the low fihjting, i'll learn how to fight in her up high. my tgime ingame is severley limited though, making the learning curve steeper.

<<S>>
Title: Re: Respect - Honor - Fair Play
Post by: oTRALFZo on January 02, 2009, 11:29:04 AM
Ive been on both sides here. Ive been on them missions of 30+ which objective is to take some real estate and witnessed the chest thumping after the mowing, Ho'ing and ramming the first thing that comes to town after the goon. It really seems to be the fad now.
You will never understand unless your on the other side of the fence to realize how obnoxious it is to get sarcastic salutes (which has happned to me) trying to defend that base.
Delirium is right..seasoned vets and even people that have been playing for a couple years have an unsaid duty and obligation to season newbs as much as possible. When they join and start flying for a week or so and all you see to get some kills have that sortie come to any winable conclusion is to join the 30+ horde, your mind will only become conditioned to do so with no effort on improving your game.
I hear a lot of "well we are playing within the parameters of the game" and "its my 15 a month and I'll do what I want" . That holds true, but there are many things in real life that I can think of that are "within the parameters"  that really peeve me off. ( I run a restaurant...people that dont show up or call for tables they booked, dont tip or come in 2 minutes before we close). yes they CAN do it..but out of respect YOU DONT.
Title: Re: Respect - Honor - Fair Play
Post by: SlapShot on January 02, 2009, 11:33:11 AM
Like Fugitive ... my beginnings in AH was with the M.A.W ... another premiere Knight base-taking squad.

I fondly remember bangin' heads with the Mafia and the Arabian Knights and many other good squads. These were epic battles that would last for hours.

These squads would pick a feld to take ... arrange the resources ... and then "go for it" ... in full view.

If the capture was thwarted, we (the M.A.W.) kept coming back over and over trying to overwhelm and control the enemy. Never once did I ever hear 40Dog say ... "Well the AKs kicked our arse here, let's give up on this one and try to sneak a base where they are not". To not go back and try again and again would be an embarrassment and the AKs would surely rub it in.

The competition between squads back then was, who could prevail over the other face to face on a given night ... not how many bases we can sneak in a night while trying to avoid the competition.

Yes we wanted to "winz the w@Rz" ... but we wanted to do it only after defeating the enemy and all in our path. As some have mentioned, squads would broadcast what field was next in the order ... but then again, it was quite obvious back in those days due to the smaller map size but avoiding the AKs or the AKs trying to avoid the M.A.W. ... no way.

All we needed was to see on country channel was ... the AKs are trying to take field XXX ... in a matter of seconds, M.A.W. would be spawning like ants at that field just to tangle with the AKs and defeat them if we could, and I am sure the AKs were hoping that we would show up. 'Tis not the case these days. I really don't see the larger squads keeping an eye out for the opposing larger squads and trying to thwart their efforts. It's more like ... ok their large squad is working this part of the map ... so we will work another part of the map.

This is what is missing in Aces High these days ... premiere/larger squads do not seem to want to bang heads with opposing premiere/larger squads.

There is nothing wrong with "base taking" or trying to "win the war" ... no different then "back in the day" ... it's the path and mindset of the current squad community that has taken this game and it's game play to it's low point.

My personal turning point (base taker to dog fighter) in AH was something that Del listed ...

C. Get tired of being smacked around by experienced sticks and approach a friendly one to teach them.

I was an expert at JABO and de-acking a field, but when those tasks were completed, and I ran into someone and had to dog fight ... I constantly got my arse handed to me so I parted ways with the M.A.W. (who I still highly respect) and went looking for a "teacher" or a "fighting squad" ... I found both in the 13th TAS and then finally the Blue Knights ... and I haven't looked back since. I can still "base take" with the best of them, but now at least I can fight too (average at best), without always getting my arse handed to me on a constant basis.

I believe, with all seriousness, you can not become a good dog fighter without suffering many deaths (for me it was many many many deaths). It seems that the skies are loaded with the 1 pass - HO - run - rinse/repeat crowd these days and I presume it's due to the fact that they are afraid to die ... and that is the part that I can't understand ... there is no shame in dieing in this game, or it least there shouldn't be.

I was flying in the MW last night defending a base and there was a KI-61 constantly perching high above the melee below and picked to his hearts content, landing 3, 4, or more per sortie. Anytime you turned into him for a fight ... up he went to his high perch. Finally, I decided to lift my F6F and climb out to get to his perching altitude. After getting to alt and then engaging him, the fight was over in about 15 seconds with him trying to out dive my F6F and then flying straight and level. He had NO CLUE whatsoever as to what to do when engaged on an equal basis ... it's what I expected, but was honestly hoping it wasn't.

Had he taken his KI into the mix (that night and other nights) ... suffered some deaths ... analyzed why he died and made changes to his flying style ... and continued this path of mixing and analyzing rather than worrying about ZOmG I might DIE !!! ... we might have had a great fight.

There are way too many people who play this game that worry about death and avoid it at all cost, and when they can't get away from the opponent and are forced to really dogfight ... they are nothing more than a 2-week noob on his first sortie.
Title: Re: Respect - Honor - Fair Play
Post by: BnZs on January 02, 2009, 11:33:27 AM
I'd like to see more 30K hordes. I run into them maybe once a month on average. They are usually heavy buffs complete with Ponys, Jugs, and 38s escorting. REAL planes! A real reason to climb a Ta-152 to intercept! Thin air like walking on ice in cowboy boots! Great stuff. Only downside, too easy to bang all the hangars down, and really, a formation is overkill for attacking an airbase, much less multiple airbases. Valuable strats, additional difficulties in bombing, and toning down the buff "death star" guns on buffs are all issues I have previously addressed at length, which would make this sort of mission a treat instead of a PITA.
Title: Re: Respect - Honor - Fair Play
Post by: mechanic on January 02, 2009, 11:39:06 AM
 I can only speak for myself here. If i act like a moron then I"m probably stressed about something in real life long before the game. Most of the time I try to make a little effort to make my pressence as peacefull and friendly as possible. When my parents were still together and i was a little boy (*pauses for cut n paste quote jokes posse*) they instilled in me a great sense of family, despite how 'family' turned out in my world, it remained. One of the great factors i was made aware of was something  my father called the 'interferance factor'. Like if we had geusts round me and my little bro were told tonight we must watch our interefance factor or we will be in trouble.
  Thats all it comes down to in my mind, for us to get along more often. People just need to watch out for their interferance factor. Thanks dad, i didnt realise truly untill now how smart what you tought me was.
Title: Re: Respect - Honor - Fair Play
Post by: SlapShot on January 02, 2009, 11:42:06 AM
oops ... finger check
Title: Re: Respect - Honor - Fair Play
Post by: mike8318 on January 02, 2009, 11:46:31 AM
I've only been online here for a couple of months,and learned the following things,

 #1,It's only a game.No need it getting mad a getting vulched 3 times in a row.It's happened to me more times than I care to remember.You can take off again from another field.Can't tell you how many times I've been shot in my parachute.

 #2 The Stratigists vs dogfigter augument is pretty silly.If you want to go man on man,why no stay in the proper arena? If you don't want the bombers destroying your hangars,go shoot them down.Seems like going to the DA would be a perfect fit for those why want nothing but air to air.Those that enjoy teamwork,tactics,and a well planned mission exectued perfectly can use the Main arenas.

#3 It's only a game.

#4, see #3.


Just my 2cents worth.
Title: Re: Respect - Honor - Fair Play
Post by: killnu on January 02, 2009, 11:48:13 AM
spot on Shane.
Title: Re: Respect - Honor - Fair Play
Post by: Shuffler on January 02, 2009, 11:48:51 AM
I've only been online here for a couple of months,and learned the following things,

 #1,It's only a game.No need it getting mad a getting vulched 3 times in a row.It's happened to me more times than I care to remember.You can take off again from another field.Can't tell you how many times I've been shot in my parachute.

 #2 The Stratigists vs dogfigter augument is pretty silly.If you want to go man on man,why no stay in the proper arena? If you don't want the bombers destroying your hangars,go shoot them down.Seems like going to the DA would be a perfect fit for those why want nothing but air to air.Those that enjoy teamwork,tactics,and a well planned mission exectued perfectly can use the Main arenas.

#3 It's only a game.

#4, see #3.


Just my 2cents worth.


(http://i134.photobucket.com/albums/q96/Shuff_photos/banghead.gif)
Title: Re: Respect - Honor - Fair Play
Post by: Getback on January 02, 2009, 11:49:34 AM
Some of this is centering around hordes. So I will comment on them. Most hordes burn out fast. I mean most play the game to get some kills and if you're in a horde that probably won't happen as much as they like. They start thinking hey I want some kills and they start lone wolfing it or they join a squaddie in search of kills. Also they say hey, the fights here I can steal this base because it's way over there or maybe they just want to GV. Maybe even get into their favorite bomber. Sometimes they just say hey I have a better way. As for me I join many missions. Yet at some point I will go solo looking to get some kills or do a little buffing or gv'ing.

I meant to quote this person: Who ever said something about there being no consequences to getting caught spying hit the nail on the head for me. I sure wish there were. Heck is there even a way to catch them?


To the individual that flamed 1plus. That is a very intelligent young man. He still has some growing up to do like we all did at 16. But I tell you he is way ahead of the curve.

Title: Re: Respect - Honor - Fair Play
Post by: CAP1 on January 02, 2009, 11:59:05 AM
I've only been online here for a couple of months,and learned the following things,

 #1,It's only a game.No need it getting mad a getting vulched 3 times in a row.It's happened to me more times than I care to remember.You can take off again from another field.Can't tell you how many times I've been shot in my parachute.I GET vulched once. then i come out in a gv, or i up another field and come back to the vulcher. i think a lot do this.

 #2 The Stratigists vs dogfigter augument is pretty silly.If you want to go man on man,why no stay in the proper arena? If you don't want the bombers destroying your hangars,go shoot them down.Seems like going to the DA would be a perfect fit for those why want nothing but air to air.Those that enjoy teamwork,tactics,and a well planned mission exectued perfectly can use the Main arenas.the best here is to combine the two. generally, a good strategic actrion will draw a few defenders...thus startign a good dogfight.

#3 It's only a game.

#4, see #3.


Just my 2cents worth.



very well said....it is just a game...personally....if somehting starts getting under my skin, i log out. sometimes i log in when i'm already agitated by something outside the game...same thing though..if i can't keep it fun, i log out.
Title: Re: Respect - Honor - Fair Play
Post by: Bosco123 on January 02, 2009, 12:10:07 PM
I agree with Del, right on. But that's not what happend to me. I started in this game to have fun, and I have to this day. I began in a squad, that was not at all a large squad. I started flying a C.205, and I realy had a lot of fun in it. After a wile, I started getting kills in it, took about two or so months to start getting steady kills.
I began fighting with people that I knew were way better than me, and I began to learn in planes that I usualy wouldn't use. I got into the 109A-8 and the F6F, and fell off the C.205. I decided that the squad that I was in, didn't appeal to what I realy want to do at that time, which was furball.
       So, I began flying around with diffrent squad until I wound up with the 490th. I liked those guys alot, and I realy had lot of fun with them. More and more, I began to get realy good at doing what I did, which was furball. My ACM was getting better and better all the wile, and this was only 8 or so months in the game. I was ejected from the 490th because I was doing what I wanted to do, which was furball. I took a hard loss on that one, and I began to reconsider what I wanted to do as a squad member, and decided, that I would make a squad myself, and set what I want to do and do whats best for the squad.
After a year of playing, I knew after a wile that I was pretty good at what I do. That's when, about  year of playing, I met Joker. When I met Joker, I thought Joker was the biggest dick in the world, telling me that he would soon have me in his squad. Little did I know that, that was going to happen. I denied everytime that he said that, saying that I would never be a Joker.
My squad was fine other than I never had anyone on my channel. Becoming depressed, I disbanded my squad, since it wasn't going no were. I wanted to be in a squad that had many people, and were in the Bish land. I was considering the SwampDragons or the Lynchmob, but there was only one squad that I knew more people in, and that was the Jokers Jokers. At the time, VansCrew was in the squad, so he was the one that got me in.
I didn't relize all of the good people in the squad, that were realy good sticks. From Joker, ghi to SirLoin and Cmustard (at the time), these people are realy good, I thought to myself. Then you had the realy funny people from Slammerx, to Peiper and Ati11a (at the time).
I noticed that there wasn't a time when I was on, there was another Joker on to play with. Also, I played with those people who are realy good, I played with them more than the others. My skill still was getting better and I got to the point to were I think that I'm the best in the squad.
The Jokers do horde and I'm not going to object to that. But you come to bish one day and you see how much fun it is when take a base to create a huge furball, which is what most of you guys want to do. Last night, there was a HUGE rook NOE mission on one of our base. ghi, immedietly caught it, and said that there had to be 30+ 110s in the mission. All of the Jokers uped to stop the cap, and we defeted the giant NOE mission on our base.
   We also had our own little thing on the nits last night. A200 was giving us fits, and we didn't realy want that base on our island. we posted a mission and withing no time, we had 60+ in the GV mission. We took 200 and the nits were furious. They uped their 60+ to take back 200. This was the most fun we have had in a wile.
We do things most of the time to create the furball that's not happening in other places, and most of the time, we win the war because rooks and nits don't want to defend. IMO defending is much easier than attacking. We did it 2 days ago when we told the rooks that we were coming to 150 on 200, and no one came, then they got mad at us because we were Vulching? would they have preferred having the hangars killed so they couldn't up at all? Its just that people don't want to do anything but firball, even when there isn't a furball happening.  

So you see, there are a few people like me, that learn a completly diffrent way that what Del is explaining. I went from learning to furball, to playing with a great bunch of guys, and taking bases. I'm sure I'm one of the few that went this way, but I know I want to have fun and have fun playing with people, and the Jokers Jokers are the reason why I love this game still.
<S>
Title: Re: Respect - Honor - Fair Play
Post by: SlapShot on January 02, 2009, 12:13:22 PM
I've only been online here for a couple of months,and learned the following things,

 #1,It's only a game.No need it getting mad a getting vulched 3 times in a row.It's happened to me more times than I care to remember.You can take off again from another field.Can't tell you how many times I've been shot in my parachute.

 #2 The Stratigists vs dogfigter augument is pretty silly.If you want to go man on man,why no stay in the proper arena? If you don't want the bombers destroying your hangars,go shoot them down.Seems like going to the DA would be a perfect fit for those why want nothing but air to air.Those that enjoy teamwork,tactics,and a well planned mission exectued perfectly can use the Main arenas.

#3 It's only a game.

#4, see #3.


Just my 2cents worth.


#1 ... it's good that you realize that it's only a game ... some never realize this. Getting vulched constantly is like putting your hand on the stove burner once and suffering the pain ... and then continue to put your hand back on the burner ... intelligence is not a strong point for those who continue the "pain".

#2 - You really haven't been around long enough and your response, I believe, is what you have garnered in other threads about this topic and are just repeating it.

What you probably don't know ... the original intent of this game (and I still believe it is) is to DOGFIGHT ... all the other things that this game has to offer are only catalysts to promote/create situations for dogfighting ... some may disagree, so to them ... let's just agree to disagree before a purse fight breaks out.

To only expect a good 1 v 1 dogfights to happen in the DA is (no offense) naive. What about the case where I run into you in the MA (no one else around us) ... co-alt ...maybe co-E ... and I engage you (in a P-51) in my F6F ... you simply do a split-S and run like a scalded monkey back to the safety of your field ack or maybe friendlies ?  That's the problem being addressed ... why wouldn't someone want to see what would exactly happen in that situation rather than flee like a little school girl ? ... that scenario occurs more now than I have ever seen in my 7 years playing this game ... and I just shake my head when it happens.

No ... I don't want bombers taking down my fighter hangers, not because they are trying to take a base, but rather they only want to squash the resources that are feeding a "furball" between 2 bases ... it's called "griefing" and there are many in this game who thrive on it ... more now than ever.

Those that enjoy teamwork,tactics,and a well planned mission exectued perfectly can use the Main arenas.

It has been years since I have seen a "perfectly" executed mission ... unless it's an NOE and those really aren't "missions" in my eyes ... most mission these days are nothing but a Fluster Cucks ... unless of course they have 9 sets of lancs, 30+ Spit16s, N1Ks, 110s, and 10 goons in tow.
Title: Re: Respect - Honor - Fair Play
Post by: AKDogg on January 02, 2009, 12:48:42 PM
First off slapshot, The AK's will never make fun of or pick on a squad because of the tactics or use of tactics.  If a AK is, they better have good reason why there are. We don't tolerate making fun of other squads. 

As far as the NOE missions, Us AK's do NOE missions when we are overwelmed as a country stand point, Flanking the opponent, or trying to split up the opposition (splitting up the defense).

Lastnight we had a good battle with multiple squads at a base.  Was a good battle till we got overwhelmed with 4:1 odds against us.  Up till that point it was a 1:1 or even a 2:1 against us which is fine.  We love that type of stuff but when it gets to 3:1 or higher, then it gets to be a horde against a squad and causes squads like the AK's to move elsewhere were the odds are better.  It not fun to be slaughtered everytime u up.  Lately I haven't minded the 2 on 1 fights against me but lately when they find out I in the area in my f4u, I ended up with 4 on me.  Is that fun?  Not really.  I been trying to work with the AK's on wingman tactics and I really stress that there should be no more then 2 AK's per 1 enemy.  Does it happen all the time that way?  No, it doesn't but they are working on it.

NOE misions deep into enemy territory is a waste of time and resourses.  Same with HQ raids.  AK's usually never partcipate in these missions.
Title: Re: Respect - Honor - Fair Play
Post by: Bronk on January 02, 2009, 12:55:12 PM


What you probably don't know ... the original intent of this game (and I still believe it is) is to DOGFIGHT ... all the other things that this game has to offer are only catalysts to promote/create situations for dogfighting ... some may disagree, so to them ... let's just agree to disagree before a purse fight breaks out.

I Think it's more basic than that Slap. It is about combat... any kind. Fightervs fighter.. fighter vs bomber ...GV vs gv ect ect ect. The avoidance or worst the pseudo combat is a slap in the face to the game's intent.
Title: Re: Respect - Honor - Fair Play
Post by: Odee on January 02, 2009, 12:55:41 PM
If I show you anything, it won't be the cesspool of the furball area of the DA, it has been corrupted and is a pick/run fest. We would do 1v1s at a side field or spend time in the TA.
There it is in a nutshell, people.  though I won't call the entire DA a cesspool, I will say that the Big Fight area reeks like a New York garbage scow in mid-August.

You want honor, fair play, 1v1, then head to a side field in the DA.

You want air to air furballing hit up the EW MW and LW

You want historical (semi-historical) the go to the AvA or any of the SEA events.

Tank battles?  Go play IEN's Tank Wars.

If you still can't find what you're looking for, then try iL2, WW2:Online or any of the other server hosted games out there.

That's my $19 bucks USD on this topic
Title: Re: Respect - Honor - Fair Play
Post by: bmwgs on January 02, 2009, 01:06:53 PM
I first want to thank everyone for keeping this thread civil.  I am impressed with the responses, and I will tell you outright I had my doubts that people on this forum could discuss and debate any issue without it turning into a mud slinging contest.  My thanks, and a  :salute to each and everyone of you.








There are way too many people who play this game that worry about death and avoid it at all cost, and when they can't get away from the opponent and are forced to really dogfight ... they are nothing more than a 2-week noob on his first sortie.

Slapshot I deleted most of your response because I have a question only about the last sentence.  This is open for debate, it is only a question.  When someone starts a sortie in game, should it be a primary concern that they eventually land?  Isn't that attempting to bring some reality into the game?  I will state I am not a WWII Historian, or have any great knowledge about WWII, but wouldn't the primary concern of each and every pilot in WWII ( or any war) would be to land safely at the end of their sortie?

Fred
Title: Re: Respect - Honor - Fair Play
Post by: mechanic on January 02, 2009, 01:16:33 PM
At first, yes Fred, i think you have a good point. Then after a while there becomes a time and a place for it. Some treat the MA as that place, others save it for FSO or competitions, some lose the will to land all together. In my opinion, it's all fair enough as long as you enjoy what you do and dont complain at people who see things differently.
Title: Re: Respect - Honor - Fair Play
Post by: Bronk on January 02, 2009, 01:16:48 PM

Slapshot I deleted most of your response because I have a question only about the last sentence.  This is open for debate, it is only a question.  When someone starts a sortie in game, should it be a primary concern that they eventually land?  Isn't that attempting to bring some reality into the game?  I will state I am not a WWII Historian, or have any great knowledge about WWII, but wouldn't the primary concern of each and every pilot in WWII ( or any war) would be to land safely at the end of their sortie?

Fred
Yes and no. I attempt to land each sortie... for the most part. However how do you ever expect to land a sortie if all you can do when caught off balance is push the nose over and run? What do you do when they are in a faster AC?
 There will come a point in time you will wish for more than that. IMHO Either fighting them to a stand off or making the reverse is one of the most enjoyable part of the game.  Taking a lot of beatings will eventually lead to this, as will sessions with AH training staff. I am an average cartoon pilot with a lot to learn. How else do you learn what not to do without trying first?
Title: Re: Respect - Honor - Fair Play
Post by: Getback on January 02, 2009, 01:22:46 PM
Excellent post Bosco and AKDogg!

Bosco,

There are In-Your-Face missions and then there are real In-Your-Face missions. Yours was the latter.  :rofl :rofl Dadsguns and I have been saying that for months now. They see you coming and they don't up. Those have actually become more effective than Noe's in mho.

AKdogg,

I have been trying to get my squad to realize that about hording. They are slowly coming around. They are stubborn defenders though and often they prevail. But last night it was like 10 to 1 and there were too many bases surrounding the base they were defending. And yet when the CO called the defense off there was a rukus amongst us LOL. You have to admire that determination.

Yes you are right about the long trips deep into enemy territory. Most of the time if you get the base you lose it back. Frankly the first thing I will do if it's a vbase, small field, or medium field is kill the barracks to make it useless. I saw a Bish mission last night going about a sector and half NOE to get a base. Now I wish them well but it was so far and there were so many cons in the area I didn't think they would make it. However they did make it to the base but apparently all the goons were dead and while they probably got the town down it really was a waste of resources. They could have just gone less than a sector to nearby base that was actually more strategic to our country. Also that base would have been more easily supported.That's just me though and I sure don't see the big picture all the time.
Title: Re: Respect - Honor - Fair Play
Post by: humble on January 02, 2009, 01:24:18 PM
IRL yes, in a flight sim....no.

I have no issues with a player flying with that mentality but its not absolute. Every time this type of argument comes up I think back to one of the best discourses ever on the topic of honor and achievement. While most are familiar with "the man in the arena" I believe that other passages in Theodore Roosevelts "Citizenship in a Republic" are even more telling....

There is little use for the being whose tepid soul knows nothing of great and generous emotion, of the high pride, the stern belief, the lofty enthusiasm, of the men who quell the storm and ride the thunder. Well for these men if they succeed; well also, though not so well, if they fail, given only that they have nobly ventured, and have put forth all their heart and strength. It is war-worn Hotspur, spent with hard fighting, he of the many errors and valiant end, over whose memory we love to linger, not over the memory of the young lord who "but for the vile guns would have been a valiant soldier."

Sums it up for me....
Title: Re: Respect - Honor - Fair Play
Post by: BaldEagl on January 02, 2009, 01:30:15 PM
When someone starts a sortie in game, should it be a primary concern that they eventually land?  Isn't that attempting to bring some reality into the game?  I will state I am not a WWII Historian, or have any great knowledge about WWII, but wouldn't the primary concern of each and every pilot in WWII ( or any war) would be to land safely at the end of their sortie?

Yes of course you're right but unless you engage and get killed several (hundred) times you'll never learn the nuances of air to air combat.  Landing comes later.

The sad reality is that the "name in lights" syndrome is a huge attraction to most n00bs so the hit and run, OPHA "fighting" style is as far as they ever get.

Like Slap said, catch them and they are nothing more than 2 week n00bs who never learned to fly and fight.
Title: Re: Respect - Honor - Fair Play
Post by: SlapShot on January 02, 2009, 01:41:38 PM
Slapshot I deleted most of your response because I have a question only about the last sentence.  This is open for debate, it is only a question.  When someone starts a sortie in game, should it be a primary concern that they eventually land?  Isn't that attempting to bring some reality into the game?  I will state I am not a WWII Historian, or have any great knowledge about WWII, but wouldn't the primary concern of each and every pilot in WWII ( or any war) would be to land safely at the end of their sortie?

Fred

Fred ... if my real arse was on the line ... I surely, at all costs, would try my hardest not to die, by hook or by crook ... whatever it took ... but as we all know, we never really die ... so what is the real consequence(s) that we face ?

Because we get to keep on playing this game ('cause we don't really die) ... why not take chances and take your plane to it's edge ? Doing this (win or lose) is a cumulative learning experience ... which only leads to one getting better and able to handle difficult situations as they arise thru your "career" in Aces High ... avoiding conflict/fights teaches you nothing and that "nothing" shows up real quick when you "can't get out of Dodge".

Every time I start a sortie, my goal is to return, but not at the cost of avoiding a fight, but rather to win the fights and the "winning" is what allows me to come "home".

That's the point I am trying to make ... you have nothing to lose ... mind you, I am not trying to jam it down other people's throats ... just trying to get them to look at it under a different light ... it just might make someone's game experience that much better in the long run.
Title: Re: Respect - Honor - Fair Play
Post by: Messiah on January 02, 2009, 01:42:29 PM
Ah, the monthly honor and respect thread *yawn*
Title: Re: Respect - Honor - Fair Play
Post by: SlapShot on January 02, 2009, 01:46:44 PM
First off slapshot, The AK's will never make fun of or pick on a squad because of the tactics or use of tactics.  If a AK is, they better have good reason why there are. We don't tolerate making fun of other squads.

I don't really know how long you have been an AK, but I can remember the nights when Nimitz and 40Dog would poke each other in the eye ... but in a good and teasing way ... like "Nice try MAW ... is that all you got !" ... or "40, bring your 1st stringers the next time".

It was this type of harmless banter that created the hate/love rivalry that the AKs and the MAW had. We loved to hate the AKs, but on the other hand respected them immensely.
Title: Re: Respect - Honor - Fair Play
Post by: SlapShot on January 02, 2009, 02:00:01 PM
We love that type of stuff but when it gets to 3:1 or higher, then it gets to be a horde against a squad and causes squads like the AK's to move elsewhere were the odds are better.  It not fun to be slaughtered everytime u up.

Conversely, if I find myself in an area where my side has the overwhelming odds when attacking a field ... there is no fun there for me and I will try to find some other area where it's a little more balanced. Fighting over targets and getting your kills stolen by the "I need my name in lights" crowd is no fun either ... YMMV.
Title: Re: Respect - Honor - Fair Play
Post by: Bronk on January 02, 2009, 02:03:12 PM
Fighting over targets and getting your kills stolen by the "I need my name in lights" crowd is no fun either ... YMMV.
Yea squad members are bad enough. :furious ;)
Title: Re: Respect - Honor - Fair Play
Post by: CAP1 on January 02, 2009, 02:12:36 PM
Yea squad members are bad enough. :furious ;)

I USED to have some squaddies do that in the squad i used to be in........ :noid
Title: Re: Respect - Honor - Fair Play
Post by: SlapShot on January 02, 2009, 02:25:00 PM
I USED to have some squaddies do that in the squad i used to be in........ :noid

If BKs DON'T steal other BK's kills ... that's grounds for expulsion ... :t
Title: Re: Respect - Honor - Fair Play
Post by: CAP1 on January 02, 2009, 02:46:10 PM
If BKs DON'T steal other BK's kills ... that's grounds for expulsion ... :t

 :rofl :rofl

well, it's easy to steal mine......my gunnery sucks.  :rofl :rofl
Title: Re: Respect - Honor - Fair Play
Post by: Dadsguns on January 02, 2009, 02:54:02 PM
LOL, the whole point of an NOE raid is to NOT have to fight you. Should you get lucky, find and intercept one in time, don't hang around after looking for more bandits. They've gone looking for another undefended base.

Sir, 15 minutes of climb in the slowest climbing fighters will put you at 30K. Objecting to 15 minutes of climbing might be valid, objecting to 3-4 minutes borders on ADD.

A huge portion of the inanity, hording, and the same set of planes having all of the edges all of the time in the MA is the fact that it really is almost all "in the weeds". There is nothing wrong with dogfighting at low altitude of course but variety, fun, and historical interest would be better served if *something* was done to promote more high-altitude dogfights, not the opposite.

Whats funny is that you claim its to avoid a fight, you couldn't be more wrong.  

If taking a base means to climb in at alt against a formidable foe at alt, well we do that too and more often than NOE's.

What most of us dont like is to fight a horde that are already at HI alt and perched above the field.  Yes can you believe that, a horde.  Most of you players that have posted on here are just the same as what you call the NOE horde, you just do it at alt and as a horde far outnumbering who your attacking and with plenty of alt and E.  So, running NOE's is somehow not accepted?  Sure it is.  

You have a choice to continue to do what your doing, defend, attack, etc.  Your 15 bucks.  But dont try to criminalize a tactic when you could very well be doing what also is not accepted by someone else.

Out of the few of you that truly look for a 1vs1 fight witout getting involved in a pick fest, your truly a rare player.  I mean a few of you.  The rest of the imposter's hide amongst the horde of pickers, vulchers, etc. to get the easy kills and worry about their score.  

Well, I have done my share of feeding that horde, gets you rightly tired.  I spend alot of time looking for a decent fight, rarely do I find one.  Somedays are diamonds, somedays are coal.  

As for the respect, I think some of you think you deserve it for how long you have playing this game, or how you so called help the community, forgive me but some of you are part of this problem in many ways.  You spend your time ranting on the boards about play but do nothing in game to educate new players, some of you teach them what you say you despise.  Its a round robin.  

I read a different complaint every week about everyone elses way of playing is wrong but yours.  Cant horde, but its ok when you do it, cant NOE but its ok when you do it, cant ho, but its ok when you do it. Cant disrespect anyone, but its ok you do it daily,  it goes on and on.  

Thats why we just play the way we do, have fun the way we want to, there is such a double standard with alot of you its incredible.  Many see it, some deny it.  Until this changes nothing will.

Title: Re: Respect - Honor - Fair Play
Post by: Shuffler on January 02, 2009, 02:56:35 PM
The 80th steals kills from eachother all the time...... On certain nights we have Quell Dale night......  then there is Porky Corky night.... and so on.


Opps almost forgot Muffler Shuffler night....  :aok
Title: Re: Respect - Honor - Fair Play
Post by: Getback on January 02, 2009, 02:58:45 PM
If BKs DON'T steal other BK's kills ... that's grounds for expulsion ... :t

Sorry for the mild hijacking. However the other day Knights were attacking p70. When I arrived there was a friendly and 2 planes missing from a b26 formation. The friendly was a bit in back from the last buff and out of gun range. Since the last buff didn't appear to have any damage I dove in on it and set it ablaze. Now the friendly made up some distance and sat on the 6 of the burning buff firing away. I started to say something but instead I said to myself, let this play out. Besides maybe the b26 gunner needs practice. Sure enough they are wailing at each other and the friendly drops from the sky and I get the kill anyway. I sure don't like to see my countrymen bite the bullet but I have to say I had a bit of a wry smile.
Title: Re: Respect - Honor - Fair Play
Post by: A8TOOL on January 02, 2009, 03:01:36 PM
Like Fugitive ... my beginnings in AH was with the M.A.W ... another premiere Knight base-taking squad.

I fondly remember bangin' heads with the Mafia and the Arabian Knights
and many other good squads. These were epic battles that would last for hours.
 
To not go back and try again and again would be an embarrassment and the AKs would surely rub it in.

The competition between squads back then was, who could prevail over the other face to face on a given night ... not how many bases we can sneak in a night while trying to avoid the competition.

Yes we wanted to "winz the w@Rz" ... but we wanted to do it only after defeating the enemy and all in our path.

This is what is missing in Aces High these days ... premiere/larger squads do not seem to want to bang heads with opposing premiere/larger squads.

There is nothing wrong with "base taking" or trying to "win the war" ... no different then "back in the day" ... it's the path and mindset of the current squad community that has taken this game and it's game play to it's low point.


I believe, with all seriousness, you can not become a good dog fighter without suffering many deaths

There are way too many people who play this game that worry about death and avoid it at all cost, and when they can't get away from the opponent and are forced to really dogfight ... they are nothing more than a 2-week noob on his first sortie.


Well said Slappy!  Let me present my finger to you  :aok

I Started with the RANGERS in AW and met the MAW about two years later. They came in from a Jet sim and I remember them being slightly disappointed  about how slow the planes were but 40 held them together.  He had just taken over the squad by cyber assassination of the old CO and I think there were only 7 of them left at that point.  I had been without a squad for a long time and desperately looking for someone to hang out with that liked to take bases.  Because of my previous experience and willingness to help, I quickly became their very first AW recruit 10 days later.

I'm proud to say that from behind the curtain I helped mold and shape that squad and in turn MAW molded and shaped many of the players that came their way. The idea of changing our names to include MAW while continuing to recruit newer members from the community paid off. MAW quickly grew to about 80 as training and the creation of specialized wings for a specific jobs continued. An influx of members subsided as we grew with each success.

I miss my Old squad The MAW and it's semi likeness the Aces but I've got a new one to hang with being of the same character and ideals. You can expect good word of them as well.
(http://www.righteousvengeance.com/themes/AT-pcdefault/images/logo.gif)

Teamwork, Honor and Respect is what makes a good squad great
IMHO, Having good squads and members willing to help each other out contributes more to the game than any new plane or piece of eye candy ever will.

   

Title: Re: Respect - Honor - Fair Play
Post by: Coogan on January 02, 2009, 03:11:36 PM
 :rolleyes: This is supposed to be WAR fella's.
Take the good with the bad and have fun.

Coogan

Title: Re: Respect - Honor - Fair Play
Post by: Shuffler on January 02, 2009, 03:15:55 PM
umm it's a game!
Title: Re: Respect - Honor - Fair Play
Post by: The Fugitive on January 02, 2009, 03:42:04 PM
I've only been online here for a couple of months,and learned the following things,

 #1,It's only a game.No need it getting mad a getting vulched 3 times in a row.It's happened to me more times than I care to remember.You can take off again from another field.Can't tell you how many times I've been shot in my parachute.

 #2 The Stratigists vs dogfigter augument is pretty silly.If you want to go man on man,why no stay in the proper arena? If you don't want the bombers destroying your hangars,go shoot them down.Seems like going to the DA would be a perfect fit for those why want nothing but air to air.Those that enjoy teamwork,tactics,and a well planned mission exectued perfectly can use the Main arenas.

#3 It's only a game.

#4, see #3.


Just my 2cents worth.



It has nothing to do with dogfighters vs landgrabbers !!! It has everything to do with FIGHTING !!  Fighting for a base, fighting in a GV, fighting air to air, it about the fight, not avoiding one! We Mafia HATED the MAW.... they were allways in your face, they never gave up, and they kept coming back !!! but that was what is was all about. The rivalry's were intense...... and a blast !

Those that HO and run, avoid fights by spawn camping, or running NOE's untill caught and then run away are missing half the fun of the game. You guys are the ones sitting in the pits in race cars making vrooommmm sounds while the rest of us are screaming around the track trying to get you guys to come out and play!

Try fighting, once you get the hang of it, its a blast !
Title: Re: Respect - Honor - Fair Play
Post by: FLOTSOM on January 02, 2009, 03:51:06 PM
here are some of my general thoughts on these words

i cant begin to count the number of times i have been vulched upping from a capped base, one after another after another. i believe that on one night at one base during on engagement i was vulched 30 plus times.

now to most this sounds like im just a fool, well maybe i am. but what i have accomplished in more than one occassion is to keep all the score hungry vulchers moving low and slow over the base looking to feed their score hore itch. while they stayed low and slow other country men were inbound from a nearby base gaining all the alt and speed advantage one could ever desire. the vulchers wouldnt realize their foolish folly until they were pounced upon by a horde of incoming defenders that they couldnt hope to get away from. cap broken vulchers destroyed base saved. so what if my score suffered for it, they blew their chance to capture the base. I WIN  :aok

do i do this for honor or respect? do i think being vulched is fair? hell no!

i do it because i enjoy starting out as the underdog and coming out on top at the end of the day. it is the game that i enjoy. would i ever be so weak in personality that i would hope to find my honor in a game? i pray not!

knowing true honor can only be attained by looking into ones self. it can never be given by another. it is not a gift, it is a state of mind and a resolve to stand in the face of controversy in defiant defense of who you are and what you believe in.

it is the feeling that you have deep within your heart when at the end of the day you look back on its events and your responses to those events. its the feeling that you know that even if your goal was a failure you carry the pride that goes with doing everything possible to support it without ever compromising your personal morals and interpretations of right and wrong.

it is personal and uncompromising in its truthful measure of the man/woman. people with no honor lie to themselves about who they are, and must wear masks to attempt to hide their shame from themselves. but their self reflected shame is always plainly apparent when ever the lights go down and they sitting alone, then in the dark they are always confronted with the true worthlessness of themselves.

i am 40 years old and everyday i can look in the mirror and say with absolute honesty that i have never broken an oath in my life. can a video game give me the sense of pride that i feel when i acknowledge this fact of myself? can any internet game ever fill me with the knowledge that i have willingly suffered not for the accolades of others, but for the self imposed sense of right and wrong and the personal interpretations of the morals that i live by? i think not.

these things can only be determined for the individual by the individual. those who have been burned by the flames of life will bear their scars personally without bragging but with pride. They will find the personal glory in their willingness to confront the searing pain without doubting who they are or why they stand in the oven and will always hold their heads higher than those who ran from the heat before they even entered the kitchen.

this is an unattainable emotion in the setting of a video game. when the risk of loss is nothing then the personal honor to be gained by it is as well nothing!

respect, well i live by my moms impression of what respect is.

it is the giving of curtsy (please, thank you, pardon me, are you hungry, are you thirsty ect ect) that every human has a right to receive from another human being. this is given upon the meeting of another, by any means (ie in person over the net ect), they have a right as a sentient being to this treatment until such a time as they prove to me individually that they no longer should enjoy the fruits of this right.

respect is something that is only granted by right to animals, no humans have a right to my respect. animals are who and what they are without pretense or subterfuge. their honesty in persona should be envied and aspired to by all sentient beings.

humans must always earn my respect, it is never freely surrendered to anyone.

it is mine to give not theirs to take. but once it has been earned it bestows upon me the obligations to always treat that person, be they friend or foe in love or hate, with the utmost regard and consideration for the person that lives within the shell.

fair play is the adherence to the rules of the particular game you are playing. if the game you are playing has no rules or suffers due to an abundance of gray areas in them, then playing it in your own fashion to your own enjoyment is fair play.

if your style of play is making it unenjoyable to those around you,(not because you are winning, but because you are acting in a manner that is contradictory to the unwritten rules of competition on an even and level playing field), then as a person you should re-evaluate your methods. you should have the curtsy to reach the conclusion that either 1 you should conform to a style of play that is more acceptable to those around you, or 2 that you should acknowledge publicly that you care not for the enjoyment of those around you and that you expect no consideration for your enjoyment from others.

fair is fair, if you would act unfairly towards another then isnt it fair that others act unfairly towards you?

well those were my general thoughts.

FLOTSOM
Title: Re: Respect - Honor - Fair Play
Post by: Obie303 on January 02, 2009, 04:00:42 PM
I'm sorry to say but the latest batch of AH players have no clue to the meanings of "Honor, Respect, or Fair Play".  Not all, but most.

First, I admire some of the replies and respect everyone's opinions.  But saying it here in the BBS and actions in the MA are totally different.  

I look at it this way, in the MA, I don't expect any measure of fair play or even a salute any more.  In the off chance that I have a fantastic fight, I will send a salute.  Most of the time, its a player that's been around a long time.  And you know what the great part is.......THEY SEND A SALUTE BACK.  That's respect, honor, and fair play in my book.  Not this PM crap that's been happening lately.  

We could go on about what's right about the game and what stinks.  But in the long run, we end up with just a game.  It all depends on how you want to play it....running and HO'ing everything in sight or looking for that one good fight that got you hooked on AH in the first place!

My .02 cents for what it's worth.  
Obie
Title: Re: Respect - Honor - Fair Play
Post by: AKDogg on January 02, 2009, 04:12:04 PM
Well, the vulching aspect I don't like unless we are at the verge of taking the base.  Most of the time we will shut the base down and take it.  If the Hangers come up just as the troops are running or about to, guess what, we vulching.  If we there just to battle, I let my opponents up unless it becomes a 5:1 odds against me.  Then I either vulch them and hi tail it out or hi tail it out as soon as I see it coming,lol.
Title: Re: Respect - Honor - Fair Play
Post by: Bosco123 on January 02, 2009, 04:20:42 PM
You want respect, then give me respect. I'm not going to give you respect when you call us horde monkeys or cheaters. I will give you respect when you realize that, wheather or not it was NOE, you say "good take boys, that was suprising <S>" There is a little fun when you beat the mission, and you can say, "Base DENIED!" That's no pun intended, but it's when you can't handle the fact that your base just got taken and you say something cowardly like, "Nice Vulch noobs" or, "wtg, you took the hangars" That's very unappreciative. Obviously, no matter how we take the base, wheather it's NOE, or we tell you on 200 we are coming, we are effective in what we do, and that's why we do it. We use our squads biggest strength, which is numbers. We can still take a base with an ENY of 26, and we can take your base with the hardest planes to fly. It doesn't matter what we do, we can still take any base with great effectiveness. And that's why we do it.
50% of us, don't need to go back to our "hordes" to get kills, but like I said, we are effective at what we do, and why would we change it? we have the numbers almost every night against any squad in the game, we even get a scrolly bar sometimes. We feel "Squad Tactics" is what we do. We fly together and we take bases.
So from furballer to furballer, I know you guys use a wingman as much as you can, am I wrong? I don't know of a time were I had 5+ with out a wingmen. It is the exact same thing that you guys do, just with larger numbers.

If you guys still don't believe me, come to bish, have some fun. <S>
Title: Re: Respect - Honor - Fair Play
Post by: Urchin on January 02, 2009, 04:27:28 PM
Fred -

I stopped at my parents house after a 12 hour drive - still have an hour left to get to mine. 

I'll post a response to your post after I've had some downtime, my brain is too fried to make an intelligent response tonight.  If the thread gets locked I'll PM you. 

Title: Re: Respect - Honor - Fair Play
Post by: FLOTSOM on January 02, 2009, 04:31:51 PM
You want respect, then give me respect. I'm not going to give you respect when you call us horde monkeys or cheaters. I will give you respect when you realize that, wheather or not it was NOE, you say "good take boys, that was suprising <S>" There is a little fun when you beat the mission, and you can say, "Base DENIED!" That's no pun intended, but it's when you can't handle the fact that your base just got taken and you say something cowardly like, "Nice Vulch noobs" or, "wtg, you took the hangars" That's very unappreciative. Obviously, no matter how we take the base, wheather it's NOE, or we tell you on 200 we are coming, we are effective in what we do, and that's why we do it. We use our squads biggest strength, which is numbers.

i believe megadeath says this best

To eliminate your enemy
Hit them in their sleep
And when all is won and lost
The spoils of war are yours to keep

............................. ....

You know your worth when your enemies
Praise your architecture of aggression

even within the confines of an insult can be found the praise of the vanquished bosco, just learn to see it for the declaration of defeat that it is.

FLOTSOM
Title: Re: Respect - Honor - Fair Play
Post by: Obie303 on January 02, 2009, 04:32:57 PM
You want respect, then give me respect. I'm not going to give you respect when you call us horde monkeys or cheaters. I will give you respect when you realize that, wheather or not it was NOE, you say "good take boys, that was suprising <S>" There is a little fun when you beat the mission, and you can say, "Base DENIED!" That's no pun intended, but it's when you can't handle the fact that your base just got taken and you say something cowardly like, "Nice Vulch noobs" or, "wtg, you took the hangars" That's very unappreciative. Obviously, no matter how we take the base, wheather it's NOE, or we tell you on 200 we are coming, we are effective in what we do, and that's why we do it. We use our squads biggest strength, which is numbers. We can still take a base with an ENY of 26, and we can take your base with the hardest planes to fly. It doesn't matter what we do, we can still take any base with great effectiveness. And that's why we do it.
50% of us, don't need to go back to our "hordes" to get kills, but like I said, we are effective at what we do, and why would we change it? we have the numbers almost every night against any squad in the game, we even get a scrolly bar sometimes. We feel "Squad Tactics" is what we do. We fly together and we take bases.
So from furballer to furballer, I know you guys use a wingman as much as you can, am I wrong? I don't know of a time were I had 5+ with out a wingmen. It is the exact same thing that you guys do, just with larger numbers.

If you guys still don't believe me, come to bish, have some fun. <S>

I rest my case.  Problems solved.
Title: Re: Respect - Honor - Fair Play
Post by: BaldEagl on January 02, 2009, 04:57:51 PM
We use our squads biggest strength, which is numbers.

... we have the numbers almost every night against any squad in the game, we even get a scrolly bar sometimes.

Exactly what's wrong with the game today.  Hoard mentality.
Title: Re: Respect - Honor - Fair Play
Post by: CAP1 on January 02, 2009, 05:07:35 PM
Exactly what's wrong with the game today.  Hoard mentality.

my biggest strength, is to throw parts of my 38 o deth at the guy shootin at me. if i getREALLY desperate, i throw my special issue supercharged blender at him.  :D
Title: Re: Respect - Honor - Fair Play
Post by: Bronk on January 02, 2009, 05:08:24 PM
Exactly what's wrong with the game today.  Hoard mentality.
LOL what you have quoted sig material.
Title: Re: Respect - Honor - Fair Play
Post by: oTRALFZo on January 02, 2009, 05:08:49 PM
we have the numbers almost every night against any squad in the game, we even get a scrolly bar sometimes.

And isnt it wonderful that such big squads have to post missions on country chan to get even MORE #s
Title: Re: Respect - Honor - Fair Play
Post by: FLOTSOM on January 02, 2009, 05:14:59 PM
my biggest strength, is to throw parts of my 38 o deth at the guy shootin at me. if i getREALLY desperate, i throw my special issue supercharged blender at him.  :D

i chased down a 38 last night and almost swore it was you while i was shooting it!

i got hit with enough shedded parts that i had to land right after killing him because my engine was damaged my right aileron was gone and i 2 of my cannons were out!

is this a 38 drivers strategy or what?!

FLOTSOM
Title: Re: Respect - Honor - Fair Play
Post by: CAP1 on January 02, 2009, 05:27:33 PM
i chased down a 38 last night and almost swore it was you while i was shooting it!

i got hit with enough shedded parts that i had to land right after killing him because my engine was damaged my right aileron was gone and i 2 of my cannons were out!

is this a 38 drivers strategy or what?!

FLOTSOM

yep...we like to think we're conserving. we conserve our ammo. we conserve fuel to an extent, as our aircraft get lightened up, and we catch your ammo, so we can return it to ya to reload it.

 :D :D

how'd u catch a 38 in a hurri though?..unless he was in a G, i didn't think hurris could catch us.

last night i had one of those horrible nights...fun fights, but i may as well have gone up unarmed. xbrit was pickin on me  :D :noid, n72 was pickin on me  :D :noid and i think i actually got kilt by an m3 of all things.  :rofl :rofl

 seriously...xbrit handles that spit with excellence. it shows skill....he doesn't just "throw" it around like so many spit drivers do. n72 surprised the poop outta me the way he turned that dam p47.

and i think the most fun fight of the night was the one i mentioned against knifeman. it's ashame i augered right at the end.  :rofl

 i won't be on tonight, but hope to make it tomorrow night though.

<<S>>
Title: Re: Respect - Honor - Fair Play
Post by: FALCONWING on January 02, 2009, 07:33:37 PM
I've only been online here for a couple of months,and learned the following things,

 #1,It's only a game.No need it getting mad a getting vulched 3 times in a row.It's happened to me more times than I care to remember.You can take off again from another field.Can't tell you how many times I've been shot in my parachute.

 #2 The Stratigists vs dogfigter augument is pretty silly.If you want to go man on man,why no stay in the proper arena? If you don't want the bombers destroying your hangars,go shoot them down.Seems like going to the DA would be a perfect fit for those why want nothing but air to air.Those that enjoy teamwork,tactics,and a well planned mission exectued perfectly can use the Main arenas.

#3 It's only a game.

#4, see #3.


Just my 2cents worth.



Well said..in a short period of time you understand what many of the so called vets dont!!!!  Its a game...people do what is fun...end of story.

Here is the other side of the coin....

I have played since 1995...what many of the "vets" miss are the smaller numbers where personal relationships were easier to attain.  Get over it guys...in 400+ arenas your not going to arrange perosnal 2 v2 fights where you call out "bingo" and the guys on the other side let you rtb.  The game has changed but not in respect to "honor" and other made up virtual terms.  It is larger and grander...

I did the "l33t fiter" jock thing and IT IS BORING.......I did the AW tournaments....perfected the 38 (the best plane in AW)...and found myself bored silly...poppiing into other arenas just to "prove" myself.  At that time a good 38 squad were the widowmakers and I would go to their arena to hunt them when i was bored.

What did work for me though was the friendships and relationships I developed with my squaddies..In the bigger arenas you need squaddies...you need wingies...or you wil be another BBS/ch 200 whiney gurl who can't get 1 v 1's etc.  Hey the day of 1 v 1's are over...its multiplane combat...when I am outnumbered I call for help from my squaddies and beat the snot out them.  Thats what works.  I see all these "vets" flying alone and complaining...

Try this:

1.  recruit some decent guys
2.  train em up
3.  fly more then a few minutes a day so they can look to you
4.  have fun

its better then whining about getting jumped, picked, vulched etc...but IT TAKES TIME AND COMMITMENT....oooooh :cry

As for NOE's/base takes...sometimes its more about flying together and having fun then setting up bad situations that fail...on squad nights I could care less how many bases we take but I  DO care of we have fun and laugh and joke alot..so view base takes as something we are doing while we goof on squad channel.  For you solo guys in defunct squads who have 2-3 guys on at a time I see why this makes no sense...maybe you need a new squad. :t
Title: Re: Respect - Honor - Fair Play
Post by: humble on January 02, 2009, 08:38:02 PM
I think this comment sums up everything wrong with the game in its current form. BTW I was there at the time and i'm guessing you were flying "RR" because I'd love to have seen you run +jase +dead or any of a host of other 38 drivers out of any arena. anytime anyone tells me they "perfected" any plane I know something smelly is being shoveled.
Title: Re: Respect - Honor - Fair Play
Post by: Bosco123 on January 02, 2009, 09:00:47 PM
We can do it with just Jokers or we can do it with the whole country, either way you guys just think "hordes" no matter what. Its funny, you guys complain about it, but if we ever swiched sides you would praise us, especially you Trafalz, and the Lynchmob. You guys don't like it because it's being done to you, and you guys cain't figure out how to beat us, when we beat your 40+ mission last night rooks. You cain't beat a 20+ against your 40+, funny.
Excuse me guys for the "horde mentality" You guys should post the same mission that we do then if you want to back your talk up, most of you guys are hypocrits talking about our missions, when you post you missions to do the same thing we do. We just do it a few more times that you do, and we are realy good at it, unlike the rest of the countrys.
Maybe the squad should swich sides for one month, and see how much praise we get from both countries.
Your talk is cheap, end of story.
Title: Re: Respect - Honor - Fair Play
Post by: SlapShot on January 02, 2009, 09:06:10 PM
We can do it with just Jokers or we can do it with the whole country, either way you guys just think "hordes" no matter what. Its funny, you guys complain about it, but if we ever swiched sides you would praise us, especially you Trafalz, and the Lynchmob. You guys don't like it because it's being done to you, and you guys cain't figure out how to beat us, when we beat your 40+ mission last night rooks. You cain't beat a 20+ against your 40+, funny.
Excuse me guys for the "horde mentality" You guys should post the same mission that we do then if you want to back your talk up, most of you guys are hypocrits talking about our missions, when you post you missions to do the same thing we do. We just do it a few more times that you do, and we are realy good at it, unlike the rest of the countrys.
Maybe the squad should swich sides for one month, and see how much praise we get from both countries.
Your talk is cheap, end of story.

 :rofl
Title: Re: Respect - Honor - Fair Play
Post by: bmwgs on January 02, 2009, 09:08:47 PM
Not the direction I intended or wanted this thread to go.  Skuzzy when you read this post, please lock the thread, its going nowhere now.

Thanks for all the sincere responses.  I at least felt I have learned a bit more.

 :salute to all

Fred
Title: Re: Respect - Honor - Fair Play
Post by: Fugita on January 02, 2009, 09:19:30 PM
Not the direction I intended or wanted this thread to go.  Skuzzy when you read this post, please lock the thread, its going nowhere now.

Thanks for all the sincere responses.  I at least felt I have learned a bit more.

 :salute to all

Fred

Are you kidding me? Did you honestly think that this thread was not going to incite anything? This thread is a perfect example of what's wrong with this game. So go log in, turn off 200 and play the damn "game". 

This is the part of the internet I really hate.

So many people with so little to say.
Title: Re: Respect - Honor - Fair Play
Post by: TequilaChaser on January 02, 2009, 09:35:13 PM
We can do it with just Jokers or we can do it with the whole country, either way you guys just think "hordes" no matter what. Its funny, you guys complain about it, but if we ever swiched sides you would praise us, especially you Trafalz, and the Lynchmob. You guys don't like it because it's being done to you, and you guys cain't figure out how to beat us, when we beat your 40+ mission last night rooks. You cain't beat a 20+ against your 40+, funny.
Excuse me guys for the "horde mentality" You guys should post the same mission that we do then if you want to back your talk up, most of you guys are hypocrits talking about our missions, when you post you missions to do the same thing we do. We just do it a few more times that you do, and we are realy good at it, unlike the rest of the countrys.
Maybe the squad should swich sides for one month, and see how much praise we get from both countries.
Your talk is cheap, end of story.

Bosco,
your quick replys without forethought kind of remindsa me of the tale of the Young Bull and the Old Bull standing up on the hillside looking down on a heard of heffers.... the yound bull says " lets run down there and get one!"............. The wize old Bull replys " no young stud, we will walk down there and then get them all!"............  food for thought............think about what you are going to do, or what you are fixing to type and get your on sense of clarification of how it looks to all of us on this side reading it, or hearing it, or seeing it done........ I admire the eagerness of all the younger players.....and I have faith that they will mature into good AH Community members, and will get a lot of Chuckles ( themselves ) in years past as they grow wizer......as each and everyone of us have in many past moons........
Title: Re: Respect - Honor - Fair Play
Post by: bmwgs on January 02, 2009, 10:00:22 PM
Are you kidding me? Did you honestly think that this thread was not going to incite anything? This thread is a perfect example of what's wrong with this game. So go log in, turn off 200 and play the damn "game". 

This is the part of the internet I really hate.

So many people with so little to say.

I was sitting and debating wheather I was going to respond to your post or not.  I then read your sig line.  Pretty much says it for me.

This will be my last post in this thread.  I will again thank everyone for their responses.

 :salute

Fred
Title: Re: Respect - Honor - Fair Play
Post by: BnZs on January 02, 2009, 10:03:42 PM
Respect

You people don't know me. Even my squaddies don't know me. I don't know you all. For the most part, we cannot even determine whether or not someone is worthy of "respect". What we should go for instead is civility.

Honor

If a player were to cheat or violate the official ROE for an event or something, that would be dishonorable. This talk of ROE leads into the next topic...

Fair play

The game is fair in that everyone has the same chance to fly the same planes on the same missions in the same way if they wish. Some people wish to artificially force ROE upon the MA but they are neither official, universally accepted, or enforced, so their is hardly any dishonor in not following them. For instance, a rule such as "thou shalt not attack a bandit with superior numbers (gang)" is something that I will gladly follow to the letter-when it becomes an actual rule in the MA, is enforced, and I can have a reasonable expectation of being protected by the rule as well. Otherwise it is just a preference that I may follow or set aside depending on situation.
Title: Re: Respect - Honor - Fair Play
Post by: pluck on January 02, 2009, 10:37:55 PM
For instance, a rule such as "thou shalt not attack a bandit with superior numbers (gang)" is something that I will gladly follow to the letter-when it becomes an actual rule in the MA, is enforced, and I can have a reasonable expectation of being protected by the rule as well. Otherwise it is just a preference that I may follow or set aside depending on situation.

To take this argument to the extreme.  It is a good thing we have laws that prohibit stealing, murder, speeding...otherwise some would do it freely depending on situation.  By this same definition, it is fine to spy as there is no rule against it. nothing wrong with waves upon waves of bomb and bail pilots. Guess there can be no problem with spying as well.  There are a whole list of items that are not exactly against the rules, or not enforcable...many which some would believe are just tools of the game.  Not taking a stand and just saying that basically anything goes depending on the situation as long as it doesn't violate HTC rules, doesn't (imho) equate to good gameplay.  Not trying to  pick on you, but the statement just struck me as a way to justify and promote gamey/lame type of gameplay.  Not saying you are that type of player, but it seems a bit of a bad way of looking things. 

Most games have a set of rules, but also most games have a bit of peer pressure to help steer the game in a certain direction.  This is especially important for issues that are simply too large to monitor 24/7 by developers and would be nearly impossible to change through programing alone...without alot of pain.  By saying it is ok to perform certain actions because there is no enforcement or rule against it is ok, is basically thumbing your nose at your peers/community and giving justification to any number of suspect gaming elements.

I realize that you are only talking about hordes, but the reasoning behind why it is ok is wide open for discussion and interpertation.
Title: Re: Respect - Honor - Fair Play
Post by: CAP1 on January 02, 2009, 10:46:29 PM
I think this comment sums up everything wrong with the game in its current form. BTW I was there at the time and i'm guessing you were flying "RR" because I'd love to have seen you run +jase +dead or any of a host of other 38 drivers out of any arena. anytime anyone tells me they "perfected" any plane I know something smelly is being shoveled.

i've perfected the 38......in a sense.  :D
Title: Re: Respect - Honor - Fair Play
Post by: CAP1 on January 02, 2009, 10:48:11 PM
Not the direction I intended or wanted this thread to go.  Skuzzy when you read this post, please lock the thread, its going nowhere now.

Thanks for all the sincere responses.  I at least felt I have learned a bit more.

 :salute to all

Fred

don't sweat it dude....you tried......that's the best ya can do really.........

<<S>>
Title: Re: Respect - Honor - Fair Play
Post by: uptown on January 02, 2009, 10:54:00 PM
 :rofl :rofl This crap is classic  :rofl :rofl
Title: Re: Respect - Honor - Fair Play
Post by: uptown on January 02, 2009, 10:58:45 PM
We can do it with just Jokers or we can do it with the whole country, either way you guys just think "hordes" no matter what. Its funny, you guys complain about it, but if we ever swiched sides you would praise us, especially you Trafalz, and the Lynchmob. You guys don't like it because it's being done to you, and you guys cain't figure out how to beat us, when we beat your 40+ mission last night rooks. You cain't beat a 20+ against your 40+, funny.
Excuse me guys for the "horde mentality" You guys should post the same mission that we do then if you want to back your talk up, most of you guys are hypocrits talking about our missions, when you post you missions to do the same thing we do. We just do it a few more times that you do, and we are realy good at it, unlike the rest of the countrys.
Maybe the squad should swich sides for one month, and see how much praise we get from both countries.
Your talk is cheap, end of story.


I think he really believes what they do matters somehow  :lol :rolleyes:
Title: Re: Respect - Honor - Fair Play
Post by: Raptor on January 02, 2009, 11:02:37 PM
My coming into AH was a little different than most. I was lured in with the aspect of the free H2H multiplayer. That limited each arena to 8 players. I started off flying everything, seeing what worked for me. In H2H Free For All type arenas were popular, everyone on one team shooting down everyone else. On team based maps, it was difficult for 4 people to take an airfield, there were no squads or missions. You soon learned who was good because of the small numbers, you would often be shot down by the same people. What else was there to do than to try to kill that person. First, you try to kill them however you can. You feel better about yourself even if it wasn't a fair kill. As your skill progressed, you would eventually try to single out that one person who shot you down, and try to kill them in a one on one fight (plane type doesn't matter at this point). The next phase would be to up what that person was flying and shoot them down in the same plane in a single 1 on 1 combat. H2H arenas were much smaller than the MA arenas so it didn't take long to find someone. Next, you start flying more difficult planes, because sure you have bragging rights saying you shot down someone in the same plane, however bragging rights intensified if you were flying something conceivably more difficult, which is how I eventually ended up flying the P38.

To me honor in AH is not killing any way I can, but being delicate about it. If someone shoots me down, I will not gang them in hopes of revenge. Instead I would prefer to try to get them 1 on 1. If they have significant damage, let them land. I am respectful to those that deserve it, if someone is running their mouth I often don't care what they have to say. There are some people who I have fought have damaged my plane to the point where I was missing an engine/wing yet still flying, they could kill me but they pull off and tell me to go land. If that is the case I will auger to reward them the kill, because they deserved it. That is a bit more extreme than myself, however if I come across a lone con missing a wing, I will disengage.

Earlier in my career in AH I saw more GK's and GS's being exchanged than I do now. Now I seem to see excuses.
Title: Re: Respect - Honor - Fair Play
Post by: Raptor on January 02, 2009, 11:10:41 PM
NOE misions deep into enemy territory is a waste of time and resourses.  Same with HQ raids.  AK's usually never partcipate in these missions.
To me some of these missions have meaning, not NOE per say... but I find pointless missions more fun than missions with a goal. Me and Karaya create "Candy Mountain Missions" where we do absurd things like fightersweeps in D3A's. They are a lot of fun because they spark a fight and surprise the enemy. Whats more fun than landing 6 air to air kills in a d3a?
Title: Re: Respect - Honor - Fair Play
Post by: BnZs on January 02, 2009, 11:39:49 PM
Well, first of all, this is a simple game sir, so mostly outside of the confines of "morality". The exception to my mind is actual cheating of some sort, since IMO it carries the taint of the lie. IMO it is implicit when you play that you are going to play the same game as everyone else, grounded in the same simulated physics, so such things as deliberate warping or out-and-out hacking that are clearly out of bounds. When you go into an event with rules it is implicit that you will follow them by your joining in. Violating these rules more or less involves lying or deception, thus is beyond the pale.

Rules against most any actions in the air WOULD in fact be enforceable. Just as enforceable as the rules against someone who goes too far on VOX. Especially since it is possible to video our fights. I don't think this would be a productive thing to do though. I think massively multiplayer arenas are specifically about engagements that have random levels of "fairness" if you will, and the fairness level will almost never be perfect in the MAs. I can make a good tactical argument why 5 planes attacking 1 bandit is misuse of resources. I can make a self-interest based argument about why it is stupid to waste E and ammo chasing something you will only have a 1/5 chance of getting a kill on. I can make a technical argument that getting a kill in a 5-on-1 doesn't earn you any bragging rights. But can I say its WRONG in any real sense, I.E., something that would be worth trying to enforce against? No, especially considering the grey areas that are part of multiple plane chaotic combat.

By the way, I consider the opinion of the community worthless. Don't get me wrong...I can appreciate the opinion of Pluck, or Snaphook, or other individual. But a talking about the opinion of communities implies that an idea gains or looses value based upon the number of people who endorse it, a concept both alien and anathema to me.


To take this argument to the extreme.  It is a good thing we have laws that prohibit stealing, murder, speeding...otherwise some would do it freely depending on situation.  By this same definition, it is fine to spy as there is no rule against it. nothing wrong with waves upon waves of bomb and bail pilots. Guess there can be no problem with spying as well.  There are a whole list of items that are not exactly against the rules, or not enforcable...many which some would believe are just tools of the game.  Not taking a stand and just saying that basically anything goes depending on the situation as long as it doesn't violate HTC rules, doesn't (imho) equate to good gameplay.  Not trying to  pick on you, but the statement just struck me as a way to justify and promote gamey/lame type of gameplay.  Not saying you are that type of player, but it seems a bit of a bad way of looking things. 

Most games have a set of rules, but also most games have a bit of peer pressure to help steer the game in a certain direction.  This is especially important for issues that are simply too large to monitor 24/7 by developers and would be nearly impossible to change through programing alone...without alot of pain.  By saying it is ok to perform certain actions because there is no enforcement or rule against it is ok, is basically thumbing your nose at your peers/community and giving justification to any number of suspect gaming elements.

I realize that you are only talking about hordes, but the reasoning behind why it is ok is wide open for discussion and interpertation.
Title: Re: Respect - Honor - Fair Play
Post by: LYNX on January 02, 2009, 11:45:44 PM


I think he really believes what they do matters somehow  :lol :rolleyes:

I bet it's on his resume`
Title: Re: Respect - Honor - Fair Play
Post by: Masherbrum on January 03, 2009, 01:15:47 AM
To me some of these missions have meaning, not NOE per say... but I find pointless missions more fun than missions with a goal. Me and Karaya create "Candy Mountain Missions" where we do absurd things like fightersweeps in D3A's. They are a lot of fun because they spark a fight and surprise the enemy. Whats more fun than landing 6 air to air kills in a d3a?

Or watching many "dweeb rides" run from said D3A's?    :uhoh   

I believe I hold the Arena Record for Stukas in a single mission.   It is well above 50.   On the first one I did (49 of em) we knocked out two bases and didn't have a goon.   They were both "Candy Mountain Mishuns".   Use a POS aircraft and get the fun fire lit under some arses.   

Ask Meatwad about the "Candy Mountain Mishun Backfire".    I created an SBD with the sole object of being pointless.   The "Rookland Wor is t3h lost."   So what the hell, post a pointless mishun.    We took the first base and lost noone.   Took the next base and lost but a singe SBD.   They backfired because the defended bases (these weren't NOE or undefended) were met by superior sticks who lost their ack and VH instantly.    Without the "safety net", they were screwed.   

Bosco, you weren't here when I started the ball rolling on "The Truce" that got the Fighter Town back on the Donut Map.    Not one single Knight craft was shot down by a Rook and vice versa.   But you should've heard the whines when the Bish base in FT was getting vultched.   I had long logged off, but knew it was eminent.    They whined for hours.    But, they deserved it, as would any other country deliberately ruining fun for others.

Which brings me to my last point.    If folks don't want "spies to be a factor", then stop taking TT bases.   Kamori announced one such attempt on 200 today and if he didn't, I would've. 
Title: Re: Respect - Honor - Fair Play
Post by: NoBaddy on January 03, 2009, 01:25:52 AM
I was sitting and debating wheather I was going to respond to your post or not.  I then read your sig line.  Pretty much says it for me.

This will be my last post in this thread.  I will again thank everyone for their responses.

 :salute

Fred

Fred...

Well done. Some positives came out of the thread.  :salute

Title: Re: Respect - Honor - Fair Play
Post by: Getback on January 03, 2009, 01:27:48 AM
Not the direction I intended or wanted this thread to go.  Skuzzy when you read this post, please lock the thread, its going nowhere now.

Thanks for all the sincere responses.  I at least felt I have learned a bit more.

 :salute to all

Fred

Well Beemer, It stayed civil much longer than I thought.
Title: Re: Respect - Honor - Fair Play
Post by: BaldEagl on January 03, 2009, 01:45:22 AM
Excuse me guys for the "horde mentality" You guys should post the same mission that we do then if you want to back your talk up, most of you guys are hypocrits talking about our missions, when you post you missions to do the same thing we do. We just do it a few more times that you do, and we are realy good at it, unlike the rest of the countrys.
Maybe the squad should swich sides for one month, and see how much praise we get from both countries.
Your talk is cheap, end of story.

Well, since I was the one to use that phrase I can only deduce this is directed at me.

1.  I have only ever posted two missions in my AH career.  One of those was aborted because not enough people joined (Stukas, 109E-4's and 109F-4's... too hard for most Bish I guess).

2.  My one mission was 10 B-17's at altitude with no fighter escorts and wasn't even close to an NOE hoard mission although it was successful to a degree.

So no, I don't post my missions and do the same things you guys do and you do it A LOT more than me... not a little.

I'm already a Bish and always have been.  I've never seen you guys praised beyond the standard WTG's from the Bish for a base take.  Those are meaningless as most players don't even know where that base is much less how it was taken.  They're just happy we took a base.

And no, I'm not going to "post the same missions you do".  Why would I puposefully add to the problems in the MAs?

I think before you call me a hipocrit again you'd better get your facts straight.
Title: Re: Respect - Honor - Fair Play
Post by: crazyivan on January 03, 2009, 02:10:45 AM
(http://i40.photobucket.com/albums/e219/educ8athome/Avatars/girlfight.gif)
Title: Re: Respect - Honor - Fair Play
Post by: DMBEAR on January 03, 2009, 02:54:34 AM
Respect & honor?....Go to a VFW/ local firehouse/ teachers lounge, etc some afternoon.  Take some food and sodas.  Tell them you thank them for what they've done, or what they do.  It feels good to do, and may even make them feel good which is the point.

As for fair play...I like the MA, and I like the DA.  I use them both.  I understand the joy of land grabbing, and I understand the thrill of a good 1on1. I almost always find what I'm looking for.   Often, I have situations that involve some of both.  All in all, it costs 15 Bucks, and that's a Fair price to Play. 

All you guys like me who fed quaters into Donkey Kong and Galaga, thats equivelent to two quarters a day in one of those machines for month.  Never in my dreams did I picture myself sitting at home in a chair playing against people all over the planet in a flight simulator for that price!
Title: Re: Respect - Honor - Fair Play
Post by: Getback on January 03, 2009, 02:57:43 AM
Respect & honor?....Go to a VFW/ local firehouse/ teachers lounge, etc some afternoon.  Take some food and sodas.  Tell them you thank them for what they've done, or what they do.  It feels good to do, and may even make them feel good which is the point.

As for fair play...I like the MA, and I like the DA.  I use them both.  I understand the joy of land grabbing, and I understand the thrill of a good 1on1. I almost always find what I'm looking for.   Often, I have situations that involve some of both.  All in all, it costs 15 Bucks, and that's a Fair price to Play. 

All you guys like me who fed quaters into Donkey Kong and Galaga, thats equivelent to two quarters a day in one of those machines for month.  Never in my dreams did I picture myself sitting at home in a chair playing against people all over the planet in a flight simulator for that price!


Oh my gosh that is so well said. btw I fed and fed donkey Kong and space invaders.
Title: Re: Respect - Honor - Fair Play
Post by: uptown on January 03, 2009, 03:17:56 AM
<---like to have the money back I spent on Astroids  :mad:
Title: Re: Respect - Honor - Fair Play
Post by: RoGenT on January 03, 2009, 04:14:25 AM

Respect: Since my return to the game, I've let my frustrations get to the better of me, particular early yesterday morning. I pretty much have the ulmost respect for many, many players in the game, especially  guys who have been playing for long time, even before AH ever came out. This one particular player, who I have fought against several times in past, did nothing but try to pick during fights and then end up vulching me several times. I had bad day at work and again, i made mistake of letting my frustration get better of me. Anyway, I do respect this player's shooting and flying skills to the latter, but after i got few revenge killings on him, my respect for him on his mentally is no longer there when he sent me PM whinning. After few minutes of this, i just squelched him.


Fair Play: If I see one of my countymen having good 1vs1, I'll stay out of it until they are done, or he requests help from me. If the baddie wins, depending if he is damaged or not, then i'll engage him.  On some other notes, if someone is fighting in 1vs1, and one of the baddies friends come in, i'll engage them so the two in the original 1vs1 can continue without threat of being picked. If more friendlies come in, hopefully they have enough honor to let them fight it out since i can not do anything to stop them. If there is gangbang on one badguy, i won't engage.


Honor: Shooting landers, especially if they are evidently damaged, I won't do it. The other day, no clue who it  was but saw this player fight 4 vs 1 so I stayed out of it and watched. He managed to kill all three and collided with the fourth, whom went down but he (the baddie) lost half his wing and was struggling to return to base. I flew down and on the side about 400; I just wiggled my wings and turned away. I don't know if he made it back or not.
Title: Re: Respect - Honor - Fair Play
Post by: pluck on January 03, 2009, 06:54:48 AM
Well, first of all, this is a simple game sir, so mostly outside of the confines of "morality".....

By the way, I consider the opinion of the community worthless. Don't get me wrong...I can appreciate the opinion of Pluck, or Snaphook, or other individual. But a talking about the opinion of communities implies that an idea gains or looses value based upon the number of people who endorse it, a concept both alien and anathema to me.


With my post, just trying to point out that morality and "honor" to exist on real levels even in video games..though I'm not taking a game too seriously. These things effect gameplay, in that certain actions are deemed "shadey" "lame" "slimey" etc.  The reason that we don't see certain things in game more often is in fact due to morality and sense of fair play on behalf of others....not because of rules set in place by HT.  Of course the opposite is true as well....for better or worse.
Title: Re: Respect - Honor - Fair Play
Post by: FALCONWING on January 03, 2009, 07:09:28 AM
I think this comment sums up everything wrong with the game in its current form. BTW I was there at the time and i'm guessing you were flying "RR" because I'd love to have seen you run +jase +dead or any of a host of other 38 drivers out of any arena. anytime anyone tells me they "perfected" any plane I know something smelly is being shoveled.

If putting time and effort into making a game more fun for you is "wrong"...then I'M wrong.  And  yes I did beat +dead and +vamp...didn't know +jase...sherry was a 38 stick in that squad back then as well.  I flew rre4 as ^falc...and in retrospect the game was never as fun as it is now.  Sometimes the arena was so unpopulated you had to "wait" to fight.  I guess this was "honorable" but isn't that exactly what the da is for???  Seems like Hitech has given us multiple arenas for multiple reasons...i dont want to base take in the da...why does the MA have to be a 1 v 1 fitertown to make some people happy?   The MA is best designed for folks in squads...time to take some prozac and adapt...
Title: Re: Respect - Honor - Fair Play
Post by: Coogan on January 03, 2009, 09:00:39 AM
umm it's a game!

heh heh, I almost forgot. :aok

Coogan
Title: Re: Respect - Honor - Fair Play
Post by: LYNX on January 03, 2009, 09:22:54 AM
Quote
In a previous thread there was an issue how the distinction of fair play, honor, and a reasonable even playing field is understood by various players in Aces High.

As a "various player" the MA's in my opinion are Mela's.  Anything goes within reason.  If I fly into a full red dar bar expecting a courteous 1v1 I'm being unreasonable...if not deluded.

If I engage a guy it's unreasonable of me to run away when it seems he's getting an advantage.  If I and friends engage a guy it's unreasonable of me to bail out of fright when it's just me and him left standing.

If I want to capture your base it's unreasonable of me to do so in a manner of "what ever it takes"...you know..pork auger repeat...bomb n bail....lancstukering.

If I want to bust your NOE it's unreasonable of me to solicit spies or act upon unsolicited spies.

If I want to bust your GV mission it's unreasonable of me fire up heavy bombers in carpet mode.

If I've lost a Cv it's unreasonable of me to switch sides to see where it is.  It's unreasonable of me to fire up a shade account to see where it is.  It's unreasonable of me to Pm a friendly baddie.

If I want to sink a Cv it's unreasonable of me to deliberately suicide it.  <grrr...don't get me started here>

It's unreasonable of me to Pm everyone that shoots me down or go on 200 tirades.

It's unreasonable of me to kill a shade or friendly accomplice for the sake of score or perk points.

It's unreasonable to turn a blind eye on my squaddies if they do any of the above.

It's unreasonable of experienced players, long standing players and vet players to still be doing any of these things but alas ....they still do and that's a sad thing.  Remember HTC can't code out stupidity.

By not being unreasonable and maintaining a sense of fair play I have respect.  I can say I play with honour.





Title: Re: Respect - Honor - Fair Play
Post by: Shane on January 03, 2009, 09:36:05 AM
Oh my gosh that is so well said. btw I fed and fed donkey Kong and space invaders.

Galaga, bayeeee...   after who knows how many quarters, I finally busted 1M on one... best few hrs I ever had at that age.

How many remember "Red Baron" ?  I have to ask, cuz if you're old enough to remember, you're old enough to "forget."   :rofl


Oh, and back on topic.. the more things change....


http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/index.php/topic,114623.msg1196745/topicseen.html#msg1196745 <-- score-potatoes genesis.

http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/index.php/topic,550.msg7484.html#msg7484  <-- ooo lookit date, long before the mass migration of "other game dweebs."

http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/index.php/topic,749.msg10014.html#msg10014  <<--- lookit date & poster. :aok


I give up... I did a search on "honor" in only GD forum going way back.  40 *pages* of  individual replies in various threads, a lot being just one guy's sig, but gems like the above to be found as well.  Have at it!

 :aok
Title: Re: Respect - Honor - Fair Play
Post by: Dadsguns on January 03, 2009, 09:51:00 AM
Bosco, you weren't here when I started the ball rolling on "The Truce" that got the Fighter Town back on the Donut Map.    Not one single Knight craft was shot down by a Rook and vice versa.   But you should've heard the whines when the Bish base in FT was getting vultched.   I had long logged off, but knew it was eminent.    They whined for hours.    But, they deserved it, as would any other country deliberately ruining fun for others.

Which brings me to my last point.    If folks don't want "spies to be a factor", then stop taking TT bases.   Kamori announced one such attempt on 200 today and if he didn't, I would've. 

This is honorable as long as your a "Vet" huh.

This probably goes on more often than you would admit to, since we see it more often than not at this point.
Title: Re: Respect - Honor - Fair Play
Post by: Shane on January 03, 2009, 09:58:00 AM
This is honorable as long as your a "Vet" huh.

This probably goes on more often than you would admit to.


The motivation was honorable.  Are you failing to see the difference?
Title: Re: Respect - Honor - Fair Play
Post by: Dadsguns on January 03, 2009, 10:01:56 AM
The motivation was honorable.  Are you failing to see the difference?

Yeah we get it...

Your trying to say that Rook/Knit horde against the Bish its Honorable..... yeah we see that alot.  Every day something honorable is being done.... wtg.
Title: Re: Respect - Honor - Fair Play
Post by: Shane on January 03, 2009, 10:08:20 AM
Yeah we get it...

Your trying to say that Rook/Knit horde against the Bish its Honorable..... yeah we see that alot.  Every day something honorable is being done.... wtg.

The 2 v 1 country pigpile whine is as old as the 3 country setup.  And sometimes it's justified.

You're kind of new aren't ya? 
Title: Re: Respect - Honor - Fair Play
Post by: Dadsguns on January 03, 2009, 10:13:15 AM
The 2 v 1 country pigpile whine is as old as the 3 country setup.  And sometimes it's justified.

You're kind of new aren't ya? 

When a whine is justified, its no longer a whine.

But as usual from you old timers, its OK when its done by you, not OK by anyone else.

This has been evident for some time, its not hard to figure out where the game degradation responsibility solely lies.
Title: Re: Respect - Honor - Fair Play
Post by: Getback on January 03, 2009, 10:44:16 AM
Actually I think it's a compliment that both sides need to team up to get us. How often do they say we don't have any good pilots or we're all noobs etc. Rooks and knits need to watch us every second. If you don't we will run over you.

The Rooks had an additional advantage last camp and maybe this one too. They have a former Bish squad that is almost totally focused back on the Bishops. They had 3000 bishop kills vs. 1500 knight kills.
Title: Re: Respect - Honor - Fair Play
Post by: DCCBOSS on January 03, 2009, 10:48:28 AM
Can't we all just get along :D
Title: Re: Respect - Honor - Fair Play
Post by: The Fugitive on January 03, 2009, 10:53:45 AM
Well, first of all, this is a simple game sir, so mostly outside of the confines of "morality". The exception to my mind is actual cheating of some sort, since IMO it carries the taint of the lie. IMO it is implicit when you play that you are going to play the same game as everyone else, grounded in the same simulated physics, so such things as deliberate warping or out-and-out hacking that are clearly out of bounds. When you go into an event with rules it is implicit that you will follow them by your joining in. Violating these rules more or less involves lying or deception, thus is beyond the pale......

Why can't the same code of conduct be used in the game as in real life? Just because its the intardnet some believe they can hide behind a persona and act out against societies unwritten rules? And the rest of as are suppose to allow this? Why can't the same unwritten rules apply to the game?

I think too many people are one getting too much into the specific of the complaints being discussed. Noes, hordes, capturing TT, and so on are problems, but the root of the problem is still the game play. People looking for the easy way, the way to cut corners, the way that avoids the fighting. Why should someone take the months it takes to learn how to fly a fighter into a fight...to lead turn.... to saddle up on a target.... to shoot him down with a couple of quick bursts of his guns..... when it is so much easyer to just fly strait at the target with guns blazing in the HO!  WHy should someone learn to roll a group of buffs.... climb to altitude...level ans set speed... calibrate the bomb site... release bombs on target... and return to base.... when it so much easier to just grab enough not to hit the mountains and then dive in to the target and release your bombs from the F3 position and then bail after you score a few hits.

Society punishes these people "who step over the line" and break those unwritten rules with ridicule much the same way we do in this game, hence the "complaints" and comments made on 200. Bosco defends his squad and their expertise in running NOE's, but its only because he doesn't know better. To the younger players/gamers running a successful NOE is a great accomplishment. They don't understand that 6 little girls and a couple of trained monkeys can run one too. They don't know there are better plans, bigger plans (tho some do take more skill than lawn darting your plane right after the bombs hit) That NEVER fail if done right. Why don't they know...... because they don't want to take the time to learn, again take the shortest easiest path, like HT said "the path of least resistance".

Falconwing posted a few thoughts, but again he jumps right to the defensive. They have a big squad. I don't see them running a lot of NOE mission. They use a good set of tactics, as well as using the map and terrain to decide the best route to take for gaining their objective.They do however, on occasion use far more people than they need and slip into the "horde" grouping. This is where I think the "Respect and Honor" stuff should come into play. They already KNOW they have numbers over the enemy, 3 and 4 to 1 most times I've gone against them. Wouldn't sending in just the newer guy with less skill alone give defenders a chance, and two help to build skills and confidence in the newer players in the squad? You still have your force of better player standing by to help mop up. Training in a big squad like this one must be right at the top of the list for the new guys coming in. What better place to teach them honor and respect! Teach them how to fight, not how to HO. Teach them how to use strategy to capture bases, not brute force.

It should be up to the long standing squads, and old timers to set the scale. Not to slip into the "easyer to do it this way" of doing things. Hold the line and point out to these new squads whats frowned on and whats not. 
Title: Re: Respect - Honor - Fair Play
Post by: DCCBOSS on January 03, 2009, 10:59:08 AM
OK now you guys pulled me in, it is like the old saying goes (it takes one to know one), how true this is, now that being said we do our best to hold at least the people in our squads accountable if a situation arises, do you do the same. This is where it all starts to correct the problem itself if everybody who claims to be one the right side of game play puts a effort into the people around them in Respect, Honor and Fair Play I would think that at least it will become less of a problem don't you, especially with the newcomers to the game.
Title: Re: Respect - Honor - Fair Play
Post by: The Fugitive on January 03, 2009, 11:03:21 AM
When a whine is justified, its no longer a whine.

But as usual from you old timers, its OK when its done by you, not OK by anyone else.

This has been evident for some time, its not hard to figure out where the game degradation responsibility solely lies.

Karaya didn't say the rooks and knights "must", or "always" gang up on the Bish. He did point out that the Bish took tank town ( one of those unwritten rules and a classless act) and the other two teams decided to take it back. No one but yourself is justifying anything. Those Bish broke a rule, the punishment was Tank Town was taken away from them.

Actually I think it's a compliment that both sides need to team up to get us. How often do they say we don't have any good pilots or we're all noobs etc. Rooks and knits need to watch us every second. If you don't we will run over you.

The Rooks had an additional advantage last camp and maybe this one too. They have a former Bish squad that is almost totally focused back on the Bishops. They had 3000 bishop kills vs. 1500 knight kills.

LOL!!! only reason they "teamed up" was so they could do it in a few minutes so they could get back to playing their game. Chastizing the bish never take more than a few minutes   :D
Title: Re: Respect - Honor - Fair Play
Post by: Masherbrum on January 03, 2009, 11:03:51 AM
This is honorable as long as your a "Vet" huh.

This probably goes on more often than you would admit to, since we see it more often than not at this point.


Damn right it's "honorable".    The Community should have enough decency to not take them.   It allows folks a "quick hop or two" to get in the action.    But, for the last year, it's "daft" to have them all belong to a country.

What you fail to understand is that I'm a Rook the majority of the time.   If Rooks are trying to do this, I make their lives miserable, by helping the Knights and/or Bish.   They know this already.  
Title: Re: Respect - Honor - Fair Play
Post by: Morpheus on January 03, 2009, 11:05:24 AM

As for the DA, Well the couple time I have gone in there I was hoed, picked, ramed, and gang banged.  I can get this in the MA.  I guess you think I just fly with a hord all day, well sorry that is not the case.  My intent of this thread was not really about me being in a squad but to try to understand the thinking or logic of some of the older vets.

As for the offer to teach me "the little" of what you know.  I'm on-line all the time.  If you kill me or see me on-line give me a shout I would be honored to be a student of your knowledge.

Fred  

Not to discount the TA but.... I can tell you for a fact and from experience that going into the DA and practicing with someone who is willing and able to teach you is the absolute best way to improve your flying/fighting ability. The guys in the TA are great for teaching you the basics of the game and know much more than just that. But they just dont have the time, understandably, to show you and teach you the ins and outs of hard core 1 on 1 fighting. I had some pretty good teachers. And saddly the AH of today just doesnt seem to "breed" those sorts anymore. Many if not all of them have moved on or quit the game for good. Or if they are still here they're "behind the curtains" and wish to remain there. I dont blame them either. What I'm trying to say is that if you are really interested in learning ACM then going to the DA is the best way to do that. Before that... Finding someone who is far superior to you and your flying skills and willing to share them is your first step to becoming a better stick. Someone who's not just going to kick your ass, then log off after stroking the ol ego. But someone who'll beat the crap out of you then show you how you got the crap kicked out of you.
Title: Re: Respect - Honor - Fair Play
Post by: Bosco123 on January 03, 2009, 11:08:11 AM
This wasn't ment for somthing that I thought that would make a great benifit to the game, just like Furballing goes no were.
BaldEagl, I wasn't phrasing it to you, because I know your bish. I'm talking about all of the people that talk a whole bunch of crap about NOE hordes, and then joins them or makes them the next second. That sums up it up right there.

Another post that got thrashed by Trolls  :rolleyes:
Title: Re: Respect - Honor - Fair Play
Post by: Getback on January 03, 2009, 12:38:18 PM
After scanning about 40 pages of posts here are the new proposed Rules of play for essentially about 3 players (Names withheld)

1. No NOE's
2. No Hording
3. Chain linked base capture

I honestly thought there would be more. There was some mentions on 1 vs. 1 or 2 vs. 1 but nothing definitive. Dernit.

No NOE's would mean giving up some freedom for mission planners and you wouldn't have a counter measure for high flying hordes but that is to be addressed. My best guess is the average altitude of initial engagement will be around 35k. Kiss those lower flying turners good bye and Hale the TA152.

No Hording. It seems that 10, implied, is not a horde but 11 is. So I assume only 10 people can up to defend. I mean it should be fair.

Chain Linked base capture. Well do away with that mission planner, You don't need it. Only thing is you can only send 10 in to fight and they can only up 10 defenders. Others will have to wait their turn. So on what will soon be known as Tiny Tuesday you will have 60 people engaged in base taking. 20 on each front. The rest will enjoy resupplying bases but do not shoot at attackers at all costs. Now I suppose they could hit other non essential bases but only in numbers of 10. They could go to DA but only in numbers of 10 of course. But bomber guys should be okay, well except that only 3 guys with formations and a guy with single bomber will be allowed assuming no escort.

Oh say goodbye to RJO, Rook Joint Operations. However you could have Rook Decimal Operations or Rook BASE 10 Operations. That should be fun.

I think you 3 will be very happy with the game now. BTW I think it would be best if you all went to different sides since well you may be the only ones playing.

Title: Re: Respect - Honor - Fair Play
Post by: Bronk on January 03, 2009, 12:43:40 PM
After scanning about 40 pages of posts here are the new proposed Rules of play for essentially about 3 players (Names withheld)

1. No NOE's
Noe is fine...horde noe horse of another color

2. No Hording

Can't be stopped...path of least resistance.


3. Chain linked base capture
Was implemented as a test to stop NOE horde... It worked... but the wine was tremendous....so it was removed...along with big maps. Small maps not many places to hide.



Keep doing what is unhealthy for game play.... watch as big maps go away.....again.
Title: Re: Respect - Honor - Fair Play
Post by: Banshee7 on January 03, 2009, 01:14:46 PM
EDIT: nvm
Title: Re: Respect - Honor - Fair Play
Post by: Lye-El on January 03, 2009, 02:41:21 PM
Yeah we get it...

Your trying to say that Rook/Knit horde against the Bish its Honorable..... yeah we see that alot.  Every day something honorable is being done.... wtg.

Psst....The Knights say it's the Rook/Bish horde against the Knights.
Title: Re: Respect - Honor - Fair Play
Post by: WMLute on January 03, 2009, 02:58:45 PM
Bosco, you weren't here when I started the ball rolling on "The Truce" that got the Fighter Town back on the Donut Map.    Not one single Knight craft was shot down by a Rook and vice versa.   But you should've heard the whines when the Bish base in FT was getting vultched.   I had long logged off, but knew it was eminent.    They whined for hours.    But, they deserved it, as would any other country deliberately ruining fun for others.

Long live 'the Truce'!

 :salute

'The Truce' has to be one of my all time favorite moments in Aces High.  It ranks right up there with my first King of the Hill win, and several Scenarios.

Allow me to enlighten those that have no clue as to what happened and fill ya' in on what Karaya and I are talking about.

This was no mere 'truce'.

It was an EVENT! 

A happening! 

A reaffirmation that good wins over evil!


the Truce
Once upon a time when Aces High only had one Main Arena we had a map that had a true "Fighter Town" in it.  It was setup much like "Dweeb Lake" is in the Dueling Arena with one base per country on 5-7k plateaus around a small lake and surrounded by 20k mountains.

It was a wonderfull map.  Land grabbers loved it because of the base setups while furballers loved it because of the Fighter Town and the constant furball.

The unwritten rule was to not bomb or try to capture Fighter Town.

That particular evening some Bishops decided to capture the other two Fighter Town bases and deprive a large percentage of the AcesHigh population the ability to go there, duke it out, and have fun.  There was always a nice little furball going on in Fighter Town, similar to what we have in the DA now, but with less acne and squeaks.

Karaya (Rook) private messaged me (Knit) about getting our respective Fighter Town bases back and we started formulating plans on how to accomplish just that.  It took at least an hour to get setup and organized.  We enlisted the aid of many squad CO's and eventually had several missions of Rooks and Knits making the 2+ sector 20k run to reclaim what was ours from the griefers that had taken it from us.  Fighters, bombers, goon drivers, all winging their way towards destiny.

It was far from easy.  The Bishops put up a staunch defence and there was a gigantic blood bath that lasted for several hours.  It is fairly easy to defend a field when you have two others under a sector away and the attackers have to fly over two sectors and grab to 20k to even get there. As I recall the Rooks managed their capture first and then flew over to the base the Knights were attacking to support and assist us in getting our field back.

It was indeed a sight to behold!  All those Rooks and Knights sharing the same airspace and working together towards a common goal.  When I saw Rook fighters escorting the Knight goon I almost teared up.

It is a rare thing to have two countries share the same vision and help each other on that scale.  (litterally 100+ Rook/Knight planes in one area)  It was one of those "moments" that should never be forgotten as it also represented all that is good (and bad *cough* <FT Griefers>) in the game.

What amazes me the most when I look back on it was we that did not have a single Knight or Rook kill each other in the area untill we had both had our bases back.  It was a special moment in Aces High and one that should never be forgotten.

There was much honor and respect shown that wonderous night in the Aces High Main Arena.

I would like to add that we did NOT then go and capture the Bishop Fighter Town base.  Many wanted to out of revenge, and much arguing ensued, but to do so would have put us on the same level as the griefer dweebs and sully what just happened.  Fair play and level heads won out and the Bishops were allowed to keep their base.





Wish I still had the films.
Title: Re: Respect - Honor - Fair Play
Post by: FALCONWING on January 03, 2009, 04:32:11 PM


Falconwing posted a few thoughts, but again he jumps right to the defensive. They have a big squad. I don't see them running a lot of NOE mission. They use a good set of tactics, as well as using the map and terrain to decide the best route to take for gaining their objective.They do however, on occasion use far more people than they need and slip into the "horde" grouping. This is where I think the "Respect and Honor" stuff should come into play. They already KNOW they have numbers over the enemy, 3 and 4 to 1 most times I've gone against them. Wouldn't sending in just the newer guy with less skill alone give defenders a chance, and two help to build skills and confidence in the newer players in the squad? You still have your force of better player standing by to help mop up. Training in a big squad like this one must be right at the top of the list for the new guys coming in. What better place to teach them honor and respect! Teach them how to fight, not how to HO. Teach them how to use strategy to capture bases, not brute force.

It should be up to the long standing squads, and old timers to set the scale. Not to slip into the "easyer to do it this way" of doing things. Hold the line and point out to these new squads whats frowned on and whats not. 

I didn't feel I was being defensive...more like offensive :t

We do train our new pilots but to be honest we don't have many..most of the guys who join BoPs are already skilled players who like what we do and how we do it...more importantly they enjoy the vox chatter and the fact that there are always 10+ guys on except in the a.m.

Sure there are times when we "overkill" but I don't know how to predict in advance the resistance we might encounter and we tend to fly togehter as a squad.  We DO spot and defend successfully against most noe's.  I find it fun and fairly easy to do.  We like working together against cv attacks (probably my fav defense posture).  AND we uncap bases by launching 10 guys simultaneously on different runways and hangers...this is fun as well...

I understand why guys who fly more solo are frustrated with the MA...but the MA hosts up to 400+ players..why not join an active squad and have fun like the rest of us???  the MA is a squad arena...sure you can have fun solo play but you have to have good SA to setup your fun...flying a p-38 or f4u-1d into a furball is bound to be frustrating...
Title: Re: Respect - Honor - Fair Play
Post by: Urchin on January 03, 2009, 04:57:15 PM
Fred -

A lot of what I was going to say has already been said, but I'll try to give you a`response that is worth reading.  Shane actually posted a thread I started years ago lamenting the sorry state of gameplay in the MA, so it isn't as if any of this is new.  

When I started playing Aces High, the game was a much smaller place.  During the week, there might be 100 people on during primetime, maybe 150 during the weekend.  The focus of the game was on air to air combat.  There was some base taking, but it certainly wasn't the main focus.  Believe it or not, it actually used to be possible to find a fight by taking off and flying to an enemy base.  About half the time, someone would up and meet you en route.  If not, if you just flew around for a couple minutes someone would take off looking for a fight.  It really was fun.  

That sort of thing stopped about 5 or 6 years ago.

There was still a muted focus on air combat, but by then the base taking craze had begun.    No longer was it possible to find a fight by flying to an enemy base.  Since then, gameplay has just gotten entrenched in that mode.  Last time I came back, I mainly went to the DA to play because that was the only place I could find any kind of fight.

The online values thing is actually sort of a sidebar, and most of my views have already been covered, but you deserve a response.

There are two very different views of what "respectful and honorable" behavior is in AH to be specific, and in online games in general.  I'll try to constrain my examples to AH.  As the focus on gameplay moved away from air combat and towards landgrabbing, there were a number of players who became known as 'jerks' or 'whiners' (depending on who you asked).  They got this reputation because they were somewhat less than gracious to whomever happened to kill them.  To me that highlights the biggest difference in what "respect" is.  The offended folks were angry because they had valiently shot down an opponent (no matter that the guy had already been engaged with 2,3, or X opponents) and given a "<S> amazing fight!" and gotten either nothing or a "nice pick".  To the picker, the pickee was rude and disrespectful.  To the pickee, the picker wasn't worth showing respect to, as he had already demonstrated his lack of respect for other players in general.  Some players even took it to an extreme, tossing out a "<S> nice fight" after killing someone in a flakpanzer, manned ack, or 5" gun.  Granted, I only ever saw one person who (in my opinion) took it to that extreme, but that player (again in my opinion) made a mockery of what I considered honorable behaviour - basically that individual, in my opinion, acted with no class.

As far as me coming back and telling y'all how to play the game, you make a good point.  I tend to dust off the gear and sign up for an account, then play for a week, or a couple days, or a couple hours (last time) and remember why I left.  The gameplay has gone to far away from being an air combat game for me to enjoy it - and I don't think that even if HTC cares (and as long as they are making money, I can't see why they would - it is a business after all) it is within their power to change the way the players use the tools at their disposal.

If there is something I didn't cover in my reply please let me know and I'll try to answer you.  I probably won't be able to get back to you until tommorrow though.
Title: Re: Respect - Honor - Fair Play
Post by: Urchin on January 03, 2009, 05:02:06 PM


I understand why guys who fly more solo are frustrated with the MA...but the MA hosts up to 400+ players..why not join an active squad and have fun like the rest of us???  the MA is a squad arena...sure you can have fun solo play but you have to have good SA to setup your fun...flying a p-38 or f4u-1d into a furball is bound to be frustrating...

Actually what I find most frustrating is the last several times I've come back, I couldn't even drag two or three guys away from their herd in order to get a 2/3v1, much less a 1v1 fight.  As soon as the two or three guys chasing get out of icon range of the herd, they turn around and head back.  From what I've seen, 1v1's just don't happen in the MA at all (at least I was never able to drag a single con out of icon range of a herd).  Amazingly enough, that is even true in the 'furball area' of the DA. 
Title: Re: Respect - Honor - Fair Play
Post by: Shane on January 03, 2009, 07:32:00 PM
Fred -

A lot of what I was going to say has already been said, but I'll try to give you a`response that is worth reading.  Shane actually posted a thread I started years ago lamenting the sorry state of gameplay in the MA, so it isn't as if any of this is new.  

When I started playing Aces High, the game was a much smaller place.  During the week, there might be 100 people on during primetime, maybe 150 during the weekend.  The focus of the game was on air to air combat.  There was some base taking, but it certainly wasn't the main focus.  Believe it or not, it actually used to be possible to find a fight by taking off and flying to an enemy base.  About half the time, someone would up and meet you en route.  If not, if you just flew around for a couple minutes someone would take off looking for a fight.  It really was fun.  

That sort of thing stopped about 5 or 6 years ago.

There was still a muted focus on air combat, but by then the base taking craze had begun.    No longer was it possible to find a fight by flying to an enemy base.  Since then, gameplay has just gotten entrenched in that mode.  Last time I came back, I mainly went to the DA to play because that was the only place I could find any kind of fight.

The online values thing is actually sort of a sidebar, and most of my views have already been covered, but you deserve a response.

There are two very different views of what "respectful and honorable" behavior is in AH to be specific, and in online games in general.  I'll try to constrain my examples to AH.  As the focus on gameplay moved away from air combat and towards landgrabbing, there were a number of players who became known as 'jerks' or 'whiners' (depending on who you asked).  They got this reputation because they were somewhat less than gracious to whomever happened to kill them.  To me that highlights the biggest difference in what "respect" is.  The offended folks were angry because they had valiently shot down an opponent (no matter that the guy had already been engaged with 2,3, or X opponents) and given a "<S> amazing fight!" and gotten either nothing or a "nice pick".  To the picker, the pickee was rude and disrespectful.  To the pickee, the picker wasn't worth showing respect to, as he had already demonstrated his lack of respect for other players in general.  Some players even took it to an extreme, tossing out a "<S> nice fight" after killing someone in a flakpanzer, manned ack, or 5" gun.  Granted, I only ever saw one person who (in my opinion) took it to that extreme, but that player (again in my opinion) made a mockery of what I considered honorable behaviour - basically that individual, in my opinion, acted with no class.

As far as me coming back and telling y'all how to play the game, you make a good point.  I tend to dust off the gear and sign up for an account, then play for a week, or a couple days, or a couple hours (last time) and remember why I left.  The gameplay has gone to far away from being an air combat game for me to enjoy it - and I don't think that even if HTC cares (and as long as they are making money, I can't see why they would - it is a business after all) it is within their power to change the way the players use the tools at their disposal.

If there is something I didn't cover in my reply please let me know and I'll try to answer you.  I probably won't be able to get back to you until tommorrow though.

This just so totally deserves to be re-quoted.   :rock 
Title: Re: Respect - Honor - Fair Play
Post by: BnZs on January 03, 2009, 08:14:11 PM
The explanation for this is quite simple Urchin, apart from the notion of  Spits being unwilling to fight 190 A-5s alone, which would be odd. The bandit is afraid he is being drug towards superior numbers or some other such trap. This is true so often in the MA that for the most part I won't chase a bandit who unloads for the deck and gets a good lead on me unless he is running in a direction I know to be relatively "safe".


Actually what I find most frustrating is the last several times I've come back, I couldn't even drag two or three guys away from their herd in order to get a 2/3v1, much less a 1v1 fight.  As soon as the two or three guys chasing get out of icon range of the herd, they turn around and head back.  From what I've seen, 1v1's just don't happen in the MA at all (at least I was never able to drag a single con out of icon range of a herd).  Amazingly enough, that is even true in the 'furball area' of the DA. 
Title: Re: Respect - Honor - Fair Play
Post by: falcon23 on January 03, 2009, 10:07:54 PM
Long live 'the Truce'!

 :salute

'The Truce' has to be one of my all time favorite moments in Aces High.  It ranks right up there with my first King of the Hill win, and several Scenarios.

Allow me to enlighten those that have no clue as to what happened and fill ya' in on what Karaya and I are talking about.

This was no mere 'truce'.


   And afterwards you all sat around singing KUM-BY-YA????

                   

It was an EVENT! 

A happening! 

A reaffirmation that good wins over evil!


the Truce
Once upon a time when Aces High only had one Main Arena we had a map that had a true "Fighter Town" in it.  It was setup much like "Dweeb Lake" is in the Dueling Arena with one base per country on 5-7k plateaus around a small lake and surrounded by 20k mountains.

It was a wonderfull map.  Land grabbers loved it because of the base setups while furballers loved it because of the Fighter Town and the constant furball.

The unwritten rule was to not bomb or try to capture Fighter Town.

That particular evening some Bishops decided to capture the other two Fighter Town bases and deprive a large percentage of the AcesHigh population the ability to go there, duke it out, and have fun.  There was always a nice little furball going on in Fighter Town, similar to what we have in the DA now, but with less acne and squeaks.

Karaya (Rook) private messaged me (Knit) about getting our respective Fighter Town bases back and we started formulating plans on how to accomplish just that.  It took at least an hour to get setup and organized.  We enlisted the aid of many squad CO's and eventually had several missions of Rooks and Knits making the 2+ sector 20k run to reclaim what was ours from the griefers that had taken it from us.  Fighters, bombers, goon drivers, all winging their way towards destiny.

It was far from easy.  The Bishops put up a staunch defence and there was a gigantic blood bath that lasted for several hours.  It is fairly easy to defend a field when you have two others under a sector away and the attackers have to fly over two sectors and grab to 20k to even get there. As I recall the Rooks managed their capture first and then flew over to the base the Knights were attacking to support and assist us in getting our field back.

It was indeed a sight to behold!  All those Rooks and Knights sharing the same airspace and working together towards a common goal.  When I saw Rook fighters escorting the Knight goon I almost teared up.

It is a rare thing to have two countries share the same vision and help each other on that scale.  (litterally 100+ Rook/Knight planes in one area)  It was one of those "moments" that should never be forgotten as it also represented all that is good (and bad *cough* <FT Griefers>) in the game.

What amazes me the most when I look back on it was we that did not have a single Knight or Rook kill each other in the area untill we had both had our bases back.  It was a special moment in Aces High and one that should never be forgotten.

There was much honor and respect shown that wonderous night in the Aces High Main Arena.

I would like to add that we did NOT then go and capture the Bishop Fighter Town base.  Many wanted to out of revenge, and much arguing ensued, but to do so would have put us on the same level as the griefer dweebs and sully what just happened.  Fair play and level heads won out and the Bishops were allowed to keep their base.





Wish I still had the films.



                 And afterwards you all sat around singing KUM-BY-YA???? :O



 But on a more serious note..After what has been going on in blue the last few days..I am no longer concerned about how people see missions as being hordes,or anything of that nature..

 BISH are getting slammed on both fronts in there for the last 2 days at least..
 
  You guys WHINE about NOE missions because alot of people join them..You whine about AT ALT missions because they have too many people in them to be fun.."Thats just your opinion"...
 You guys WHINE about HORDES...Well the bish in blue have been getting the HUGE numbers against them for 2 days in blue on BOTH fronts..

 SO STOP WITH THE WHINING...ALL SIDES HORDE,ALL SIDES DO WHAT THE YOU SAY YOU DONT LIKE....If you dont like it go to the DA or the AVA....

  ALL BETS ARE OFF...You get what you give..

  Just like lute posted..some guys took tank town,now we dont know who they were,and it probably didnt matter,but what happened..the ONE side got PUNISHED for what a few did..So if you dont like what goes on with what the other team is doing,look around your country,the same thing you dont like is probably going on at an enemy base near you..And it is someone you probably know doing it,but you dont say anything to them,because they pay to play the way they want..

                                                            Falcon23
Title: Re: Respect - Honor - Fair Play
Post by: WMLute on January 03, 2009, 11:07:14 PM
Just like lute posted..some guys took tank town,now we dont know who they were,and it probably didnt matter,but what happened..the ONE side got PUNISHED for what a few did..So if you dont like what goes on with what the other team is doing,look around your country,the same thing you dont like is probably going on at an enemy base near you..And it is someone you probably know doing it,but you dont say anything to them,because they pay to play the way they want.

I guess you missed the bit where we didn't go and capture the Bishop base in Fighter town but let them keep it so they too could have fun in Fighter Town.  (And it did take quite a bit of persuasion to get the Knit/Rooks to not capture the Bish FT base)

We didn't "punish" the whole of Bish for what was probably the actions of a small few.

The "THEY DID IT FIRST" argument doesn't hold water with me.  Never has, and hopefull never will.  I hold myself to a higher standard and will not compromise said standard over the actions of others.  Just because THEY were griefer weenies first doesn't give me a free pass to be a griefer weenie.

Which brings the topic back around to Honor and Fair Play.  If you choose to play without it, please at least have the intestinal fortitude to come right and and say so.  Don't try to cast the blame on others for your own behavior.

“Honor has not to be won; it must only not be lost.” - Arthur Schopenhauer



Title: Re: Respect - Honor - Fair Play
Post by: FALCONWING on January 03, 2009, 11:37:18 PM
Actually what I find most frustrating is the last several times I've come back, I couldn't even drag two or three guys away from their herd in order to get a 2/3v1, much less a 1v1 fight.  As soon as the two or three guys chasing get out of icon range of the herd, they turn around and head back.  From what I've seen, 1v1's just don't happen in the MA at all (at least I was never able to drag a single con out of icon range of a herd).  Amazingly enough, that is even true in the 'furball area' of the DA. 

Your point is well taken...but I don't think it reflects the character of individual players as much as what was bound to occur when you have 350+ in an arena...especially a small map...

You use terms like "herd" but in a large plane encounter only a small percentage are probably tuned to each other...but green planes help green planes and attack red planes...i think it is that simple...and when there are lots of planes then the 1 v 1's, 2 v 2's disappear....

In air warrior days there would only be 10-20 guys in an arena...you knew not just your countrymates by name but also your opposing pilots...it was that intimate...15 people were a megasquad...so i can understand what it is you are missing...the DA best recreates that experience...it just lacks any true sense of a game or teamplay...so folks come to the MA hoping to get both...

Lets be honest NOE critics (not directed at you Urchin)...Even if there was an noe going on constantly...you are only talking about 30 pilots tops...out of 350-450...that leaves over 300 pilots to dogfight "the way it should be"...so lets not get carried away blaming the NOE squads for "ruining" the gameplay...as Urchin and I have civilly discussed here...it is much more likely related to large volume arenas and the behaviors that more apt to occur in such situations :salute
Title: Re: Respect - Honor - Fair Play
Post by: Guppy35 on January 04, 2009, 12:25:08 AM
How I present myself in the game and how I interact with other players is what I can control.  No one can make me play another way, or cause me to do anything I don't want to.

The best I can hope for is that the way I play, or how I talk to people might rub off on someone else in a positive way.  If not, so be it. 

Other then that, it's your dime.  The sun still comes up tomorrow, and I'm still not really dying and the planes are free.
Title: Re: Respect - Honor - Fair Play
Post by: Oldman731 on January 04, 2009, 12:38:37 AM
If you dont like it go to the DA or the AVA....

Lookit that, some wisdom in the rant after all.

Look forward to seeing you folks.

- oldman
Title: Re: Respect - Honor - Fair Play
Post by: trigger2 on January 04, 2009, 12:51:18 AM
How I present myself in the game and how I interact with other players is what I can control.  No one can make me play another way, or cause me to do anything I don't want to.

The best I can hope for is that the way I play, or how I talk to people might rub off on someone else in a positive way.  If not, so be it. 

Other then that, it's your dime.  The sun still comes up tomorrow, and I'm still not really dying and the planes are free.

True. I try and fly in a way that "leaves a mark." I remember my first time flying AH, I say I'm new, and ask the knights where they need me. A couple guys say that there's no place for a noob like me. But one guy told me that they could use me at such-and-such airfield, and that if I needed any help, to let him know and that he'd be happy to help. I upped, and saw what he meant by help. There were only about 4 of us, and a whole horde of them. I remember someone asking what plane I was flying, and I answered, "How am I supposed to find that out?!", and that's where I learned about the hanger. Now I can ID any plane if I can get a good view on it. I upped, got my butt kicked, and after the other guys secured the field, a couple of 'em asked if I'd like to go into the TA and work with them on a few things. I said sure, went in and learned ALOT of my fundementals, still couldn't put up a good fight, but I made 'em work a bit harder for the kill. When I fly, I remember that, 1) It's a game, and 2) I don't know how long these guys have been playing for when I fight 'em, if they've been playing for a day or two, I want to leave my mark, try and teach them how to bloom in this little community we have, so when I fly, I try and abide by a couple of my rules...
1) Don't HO, but if your guns open up, mine will too shortly-there-after.
2) Never jump into a 1 v. 1 unless someone asks for help in it, then it's fair-game.
3) Never turn anyone down who asks for help, and offer it wherever I see neccessary.
4) Try and learn to fly everyplane out there, it doesn't matter if I get my arse kicked, it's a game, learn the plane, get used to it, the "supers" aren't all that "super."
5) Never shoot off insults, treat people how I wanna be treated.
6) Have fun, it's just a game...



Guppy...
They aren't free, they're 15$ USD a month.  :aok
Title: Re: Respect - Honor - Fair Play
Post by: RoGenT on January 04, 2009, 03:57:50 AM
talking about Hordes and NOE missions. I always tease bish about their hordes when they have numbers but nothing serious meant by it when I do. I personally like busting into hordes and NOE missions, even if I end up getting shot down, knowing I made few pilots nervous makes me happy  :rock
Title: Re: Respect - Honor - Fair Play
Post by: The Fugitive on January 04, 2009, 10:43:22 AM
Your point is well taken...but I don't think it reflects the character of individual players as much as what was bound to occur when you have 350+ in an arena...especially a small map...

You use terms like "herd" but in a large plane encounter only a small percentage are probably tuned to each other...but green planes help green planes and attack red planes...i think it is that simple...and when there are lots of planes then the 1 v 1's, 2 v 2's disappear....


This is the kind of stuff that drives me nuts!! Why would a person WANT to be the 15th or 20th guy in on a fight? To me, if I see a squad hitting a base I might do a bit of an end around and pork the bases behind the one the squad is hitting to help them out, it also has the advantage of pulling numbers away from their fight to defend against me, AND starts another fight !

Yesterday rooks were getting hammered in orange. We started out defending our main island then took the port on the north tip, then the cv, then on to A24. Numbers were relatively even, the fights were good for the most part.... did have some guys thinking running to ack was more important than fighting...but then the Bish horde gets together. I have no idea of the numbers, but I didn't both aiming in the WW I was in, I just held the trigger down and racked the sky. I got 3 before ghi dive bombed me in a B26 (another lame move). They captured a couple of bases, then jumped to the Knight front and ran off 5 or 6 more captures to win the war. The rest of the night was down hill from there.... cap numbers all a mess... people complaining about hordes... even saw a few congratulating each other for getting all those perks for winning the war !  LOL!!!

I don't understand some of this. How much fun is it really if your the 16th guy in on a base capture mission.... towns flat, vh is down, no GVs, vulch lite is lite but nobodys upping and heaven forbid you drop your bombs on the field !!! Wheres the fun in that? In a 3 on 1 fight yesterday, and ALL THREE HAD TOO GO FOR THE HO ! why? Am I such a big threat ?? I even ask the guy who killed me...on his 3rd pass why the HOs, he never answered, I'm think he was embarrassed... at least I hope he was. Maybe one thing leads to another.... you fly in the horde, so you MUST take every shot you can get, even a HO because you have to beat the rest of the horde to the kill.
Title: Re: Respect - Honor - Fair Play
Post by: Dadsguns on January 04, 2009, 11:15:37 AM
Psst....The Knights say it's the Rook/Bish horde against the Knights.

Yeah right, I have never seen anyone from the knits complain about that.......
Title: Re: Respect - Honor - Fair Play
Post by: FireDrgn on January 04, 2009, 11:27:35 AM
Some of the "Better Sticks" in the game that can kick butt in 1v1's  are often the 3rd or 4th guy on the lone con..
Some of the  better sticks in this game are the ones to blame for the suckage that goes on.  They spend as much time pissing people off as the newbies do.  The difference is the newbies are ignorant of the dweebness....If the good sticks are doing it why learn any differant....


The good sticks are more guilty of the kill still... and the gang than any noob in the MA...

The good sticks are the ones that are always there picking you when your in the rolling scissors with someone.....

The good sticks never break off and let you have a 1v1.....

The Ma Sucks because of the Good sticks just as much as the noobs.  You all dont hold your self's to any higher standard than the newbs.....

I would like to tell you that it blows my mind that the good sticks come in here and rant about honor and respect..... I say BS  you liars......

Shut up or I will just start posting videos of the lameness....


I can remember the list of good sticks that show respect in this game and this list is real short............

Its because of players like Urchin that I have respect for, that I have learned respect for others in this game... Because of him and those like him I know its ok to lets someone have a 1v1.  I know its ok to let a smoking 205 that just kicked prettythang to land with his 3 victories...and the list goes on....



<S>  FireDrgn

Title: Re: Respect - Honor - Fair Play
Post by: Dadsguns on January 04, 2009, 11:33:48 AM
Some of the "Better Sticks" in the game that can kick butt in 1v1's  are often the 3rd or 4th guy on the lone con..
Some of the  better sticks in this game are the ones to blame for the suckage that goes on.  They spend as much time pissing people off as the newbies do.  The difference is the newbies are ignorant of the dweebness....If the good sticks are doing it why learn any differant....


The good sticks are more guilty of the kill still... and the gang than any noob in the MA...

The good sticks are the ones that are always there picking you when your in the rolling scissors with someone.....

The good sticks never break off and let you have a 1v1.....

The Ma Sucks because of the Good sticks just as much as the noobs.  You all dont hold your self's to any higher standard than the newbs.....

I would like to tell you that it blows my mind that the good sticks come in here and rant about honor and respect..... I say BS  you liars......

Shut up or I will just start posting videos of the lameness....


I can remember the list of good sticks that show respect in this game and this list is real short............

Its because of players like Urchin that I have respect for, that I have learned respect for others in this game... Because of him and those like him I know its ok to lets someone have a 1v1.  I know its ok to let a smoking 205 that just kicked uncle to land with his 3 victories...and the list goes on....



<S>  FireDrgn

 :aok

I saw last night someone landed 25 kills in a 51D, you cant tell me that guy didnt pick them kills and probably stole a few.....   :rofl

But your spot on.......
Title: Re: Respect - Honor - Fair Play
Post by: stroker71 on January 04, 2009, 11:45:02 AM
Can't count the number of times, even when limited numbers of both sides around, that a friendly swooped in to HO the guy I worked to get on his 6.  Makes ya wana go out and HO everything red just to get kills.  If you want kills, and that want the game is about, you have to play dirty most of the time even against your own countrymen.  ie. Was in a fight with a F4u and me in a p-38 ended on the deck in the stall.  I was using every bit of my limited skill to stay on his 6 and take shots where I could and at that point I was out of cannon.  I did have enough to down this enemy bird...last enemy around for all I know.  Fight went on for awhile and it was fun.  Only one friendly around and he was 4k away the last I knew.  I wasn't asking for help and didn't want any...win, lose or draw I was having fun.  Next thing I heard was a screaming engine and my kill MY KILL I worked so hard for go POOOF and I get an asst.  Why didn't the friendly ask if I wanted help WHY WHY WHY?  ie. Yesterday a squadie and I where messing around where we saw a small enemy dar.  Found a b-25h medimun alt no threat to our base as of yet.  So I goto set-up the slash attack because I don't want a damaged plane if I can help it.  Hear a friendly on local say "OOhhh a b-25"  My reply was "I am on it" and squadie says "DuHasst is going to take care of it"  So whats the friendly do?????   He goes straight in on the b-25's 6 and fires away.  I get an asst and friendly gets a damaged plane...hahaha.  And there are many more stories like that of mine and I am sure everyone has one or 10 or 100.  In a furball it's just that a furball every man for himself.  Just piss poor sportsmanship.  Or even those guys that go out and straff gv's during a gv battle...I don't target flaks when they apprear just so they shoot those guys down.  

I like this type of conversation:
Knight pilot:  There's a panzer under me...NOW!"
Duhasst: "I see him"
Knight Pilot "Here i'll straff him for you"
Duhasst "No need I am firing at him"

Then the knight pilot straffs him 3-4 times gaining the kill.  WHY WHY WHY I ask.

Knight Pilot "Hey a flak just upped"
Duhasst "Go get him...hehehe"

Duhasst<----making a list of knights I will not help unless it's to clear thier 12!

Title: Re: Respect - Honor - Fair Play
Post by: Bronk on January 04, 2009, 11:49:57 AM
Yeah right, I have never seen anyone from the knits complain about that.......
LOL all the bloody time.

Ohh and rooks say "ZOMG the bish and nits aren't fighting each other !!!111one eleven!!11!.".

Title: Re: Respect - Honor - Fair Play
Post by: Bronk on January 04, 2009, 11:53:10 AM

I like this type of conversation:
Knight pilot:  There's a panzer under me...NOW!"
Duhasst: "I see him"
Knight Pilot "Here i'll straff him for you"
Duhasst "No need I am firing at him"

Then the knight pilot straffs him 3-4 times gaining the kill.  WHY WHY WHY I ask.

Knight Pilot "Hey a flak just upped"
Duhasst "Go get him...hehehe"

Duhasst<----making a list of knights I will not help unless it's to clear thier 12!



Try flying a hurri D.. when ords and gv hanger down... 110s thinking they are doing something. :mad:
Title: Re: Respect - Honor - Fair Play
Post by: mechanic on January 04, 2009, 12:08:20 PM
:aok

I saw last night someone landed 25 kills in a 51D, you cant tell me that guy didnt pick them kills and probably stole a few.....   :rofl


Easily possible to get 25 kills without stealing kills, If youre flynig a p51. Now if he got 100+ in a p40b, then you start wondering :D
Title: Re: Respect - Honor - Fair Play
Post by: FLOTSOM on January 04, 2009, 12:14:02 PM
[begin hijack]

ya know one way that would aid in defeating the horde mentality, is if only the first person to hit a plane with a bullet can get the credit for the kill.

so if 5 or 6 planes jump on an enemy plane only the first person to hit it with a bullet (even without any type structural or integrity effecting damage) gets the kill if the plane gets shot down. once the enemy has been hit the first time the rest of the score hores now know it is worthless to them to get involved because they cant get credit for the kill no matter what they do. if there is 10 guys chasing one plane the odds of getting the kill are so astronomical there is just no sense in bothering to join. once they see that some one else has already hit the enemy most will break off knowing the pursuit is pointless for them.

this would also aid in putting an end to kill steeling, if a plane is going down because someone else shot off its wing already well you can shoot it as many times as you like but it wont matter you cant get the kill. so most people wont bother.

now some may say "well then you will have people shooting at a plane scoring a hit on it then running away cause even if someone else shoots it down they will still get the credit for it" well this may not be the actual case.

because you have just fired on someone, someone who may not like the idea of being shot at, leaving him alive leaves you open the very likely possibility that that person will come after you if you turn your back to him.

additionally if you get shot down or land before the enemy plane crashes then you obviously get nothing for it. so again failing to finnish the job is no guarantee of getting any pay off from the effort.

or even better, just turn off kill shooter. the guys in the front of the conga line will pull off quickly if they see the tracers from the jerk offs behind them flying over their canopies.

this will also help stop the jack offs from clearing your 12 oclock. if they jump between you and your target then they risk getting shot in the arse. too bad for them.

[end hijack]

FLOTSOM
Title: Re: Respect - Honor - Fair Play
Post by: Bronk on January 04, 2009, 12:17:37 PM
[begin hijack]

ya know one way that would aid in defeating the horde mentality, is if only the first person to hit a plane with a bullet can get the credit for the kill.


FLOTSOM

So in a furball a guy zipps through pinging a bunch. Then he flies back and waits for his kills?
Title: Re: Respect - Honor - Fair Play
Post by: Banshee7 on January 04, 2009, 12:19:12 PM
So in a furball a guy zipps through pinging a bunch. Then he flies back and waits for his kills?

sounds like a good idea to me  :noid
Title: Re: Respect - Honor - Fair Play
Post by: Dadsguns on January 04, 2009, 12:22:48 PM
now some may say "well then you will have people shooting at a plane scoring a hit on it then running away cause even if someone else shoots it down they will still get the credit for it" well this may not be the actual case.
FLOTSOM

This is what they are doing, they get the ping and someone else finishes them off. 
What they should do is only give the kill to the guy that actually gives the death blow.  You see it all the time where people ping gv's, or another plane and someone else shoots you and you die but the first guy gets the kill, I get more assists than kills even though I finish the guy off.
Title: Re: Respect - Honor - Fair Play
Post by: Bronk on January 04, 2009, 12:27:01 PM
The kill is awarded to who does the most damage.  It has zip, zero, nada to do when it was hit.  I can take a wing off an ac if anyone follows it down firing till it goes poof....they usually get the kill.
Title: Re: Respect - Honor - Fair Play
Post by: mechanic on January 04, 2009, 12:36:09 PM
^ the worst is for 30+mm single hub guns. one tater ping to send them floating down is almost never enough to get credit when a two week hero bravely swoops in and kindly stops them hitting the ground with a stream of lead.

I dont bother to bail usualy, but if someone is about to steal the kill on me i hit enter three times
Title: Re: Respect - Honor - Fair Play
Post by: FLOTSOM on January 04, 2009, 01:02:39 PM
So in a furball a guy zipps through pinging a bunch. Then he flies back and waits for his kills?

do you ever bother to completely read a post and understand it before you run your mouth?

as i stated above, first off he has to ping them before anyone else has hit them, then he has to get away without any one of those (or others) he pinged chasing him down and killing him, then he needs to go sit somewhere being very bored and hoping that others will finish his work for him.

these do not sound like very productive or fun strategies to me. maybe a few will try them.

no matter what you do you are going to find losers trying to game the game. all you can hope for is to make it difficult, generally boring and unproductive to those who try.

This is what they are doing, they get the ping and someone else finishes them off. 
What they should do is only give the kill to the guy that actually gives the death blow.  You see it all the time where people ping gv's, or another plane and someone else shoots you and you die but the first guy gets the kill, I get more assists than kills even though I finish the guy off.

i have fired on what i believed to be an uninjured enemy plane (i had been the first in the area to engage it) and made it explode in mid air and still only received an assist, at other times i have taken the wing or tail off an enemy and watched someone else chase it to the ground shooting at it, he recieved the kill while i had gotten the assist.

but then while engaged against an enemy in a low turn fight i have had a different enemy plane tumble past me (it actually fell behind me) after it had been shot up by my wingman KILLSOM. even though i never fired a shot at it, i received a kill for it. that made no sense to me or to my wingman who had shot it to pieces but received only an assist. best we could come up with was that i had hit it earlier in the engagement and didnt realize that i had wounded it.

it just seams to me that if you hit an enemy first then others are less likely to bother to jump into the fight knowing they cant get the kill no matter what they do. they are less likely to interfere if there is no possible gratification for their efforts.

FLOTSOM
Title: Re: Respect - Honor - Fair Play
Post by: Dadsguns on January 04, 2009, 01:17:20 PM
do you ever bother to completely read a post and understand it before you run your mouth?
FLOTSOM

 :rofl :rofl

I should put this in my sig like donkey boy does........  :rofl

Thanks FLOTSOM, you made me laugh,,,,
Title: Re: Respect - Honor - Fair Play
Post by: 999000 on January 04, 2009, 01:27:38 PM
Being a good stick and being a good player  can be two very different things......I'm a really bad stick.....I hope to be a really good player....
<S> 999000
Title: Re: Respect - Honor - Fair Play
Post by: Bronk on January 04, 2009, 01:47:53 PM


as i stated above, first off he has to ping them before anyone else has hit them, then he has to get away without any one of those (or others) he pinged chasing him down and killing him, then he needs to go sit somewhere being very bored and hoping that others will finish his work for him.


FLOTSOM

Hmm path of lest resistance... FW-190d  zip around pinging everything ... rtb 2 bases back?

Yep, I can see lemmings doing this as well.

I mean Cmon .. lancastuka... pork auger.... stick stir...ect ect ect.   If it is an option they will do it.
Title: Re: Respect - Honor - Fair Play
Post by: A8TOOL on January 04, 2009, 01:48:00 PM
I think it's set up to where the guy who causes a pilot wound will get the kill no matter what and the guy who puts the most damage into a plane gets it as well unless someone else gave him a PW first.

Bullet damage has a lot to do with it too. I have put countless 303 rounds into someone and with just a few cannon hits someone else will steal the kill. It seems to work the same when I'm using a spit 8 - 9 with 303's and cannon. If I don't put him down quick enough when there is a K4 or yakt around i lose the kill to the larger more damaging rounds.

I could be wrong about all this but that is the impression I was under.


The first bullet to hit a plane gets the kill idea sucks but maybe the first person to take a wing or tail off should.
Title: Re: Respect - Honor - Fair Play
Post by: Bronk on January 04, 2009, 01:49:55 PM



The first bullet to hit a plane gets the kill idea sucks but maybe the first person to take a wing or tail off should.

Crippling damage for teh win. :aok
Title: Re: Respect - Honor - Fair Play
Post by: FLOTSOM on January 04, 2009, 02:13:02 PM

The first bullet to hit a plane gets the kill idea sucks but maybe the first person to take a wing or tail off should.


Crippling damage for teh win. :aok

i agree with both of these, but how does either of these prevent the horde or the gang bang?

the only way to "attempt" to prevent these things is to ensure that these types of behavior are unlikely to bear any fruit to the picker (pun intended).

you cant see when an enemy player is pilot wounded, or some other forms of damage (like half a missing wing burning plane near its base ect) doesnt guarantee the plane will crash before it can land or ditch, so others will attack the plane anyways just out of the chance they can get the kill.

my idea is essentially a play on the simple greed of the individual, if they are not getting theirs then why should they help you get yours buy jumping the target with you or for you. greed and selfishness is generally the the basis of this type of behavior. if you remove the pay off you remove the motivation of those considering perpetrating the act.

if the cash box is empty then why would anyone break into it? no pay off no crime. now obviously this is not always the case, some will do it just because. these individuals gaming style you cant fix no matter what you do, cant cure stupid. but you can make the majority feel like it is a worthless and therefor unjustifiable behavior.

personally i wish kill shooter was off and you could kill the tards that annoy you without having to switch countries.

FLOTSOM
Title: Re: Respect - Honor - Fair Play
Post by: Bronk on January 04, 2009, 02:15:33 PM


personally i wish kill shooter was off and you could kill the tards that annoy you
FLOTSOM
Can't have it... BKs will never get up... to busy vulching one another.  :D
Title: Re: Respect - Honor - Fair Play
Post by: FLOTSOM on January 04, 2009, 02:23:39 PM
Can't have it... BKs will never get up... to busy vulching one another.  :D
:huh

 :rofl  :rofl  :rofl  :rofl

 :aok
Title: Re: Respect - Honor - Fair Play
Post by: E25280 on January 04, 2009, 02:23:49 PM
my idea is essentially a play on the simple greed of the individual, if they are not getting theirs then why should they help you get yours buy jumping the target with you or for you. greed and selfishness is generally the the basis of this type of behavior. if you remove the pay off you remove the motivation of those considering perpetrating the act.
It is also greed and selfishness that will prevent someone from getting help in a fight if he asks for it or needs it.

Player Greedy1 sees three red guys on one green guy -- and he decides NOT to help out, because, after all, that green guy may have pinged one or more of those three.  Greedy1 wants the kills, so he waits and does nothing until the green guy pops.

Or worse:  "Keep going straight, I'll get him" and then doesn't bother to pull the trigger until the green guy pops.

Forget any escorts trying to defend buffs . . .

Terrible for teamwork, which is detrimental for game play.  Sorry -- first ping is simply a horrible idea.  
Title: Re: Respect - Honor - Fair Play
Post by: The Fugitive on January 04, 2009, 02:32:19 PM
i agree with both of these, but how does either of these prevent the horde or the gang bang?



The only way to prevent hordes and gang bangs as by teaching everyone that its not the way to go. Yesterday some guy was complaining that he couldn't get enough people to join his mission to attack TT on the isles map. I pointed out that it was frowned upon and that he should leave the tankers alone to battle it out against each other. He dropped it and moved on.

Another post pointed out that a lot of the people that do these things are the "good sticks". Well I hope he's not going by the scoreboard, nor the "popular vote". I don't fly as much as I'd like, but I'd be surprised if I've seen more than a few of the guys I'd consider "top sticks" flying these days. There are a pretty big number of people that I could see being considered as top sticks, but if you knew them, or had flown against them you'd know they weren't even worth of being in the top 200.  They get by on vulches, cherry picks, or gang bangs. They look like they are much better than they are.

I had suggested adjusting the scores to promote better game play in another thread. I know, "nobody cares about scores", but I bet the scores page gets more hits than the BBS  :D I thought that giving players more points for capturing base with less people might help cut back on the hordes, and so on, maybe the coding would be a nightmare, who knows, but its an idea. I don't see many ways of changing game play to make it fun for more people. Peer pressure, carrot on the end of a stick, or just a big stick  :devil There doesn't seem to be a lot of options.
Title: Re: Respect - Honor - Fair Play
Post by: stroker71 on January 04, 2009, 04:05:52 PM


ya know one way that would aid in defeating the horde mentality, is if only the first person to hit a plane with a bullet can get the credit for the kill.

FLOTSOM

So you the kind of guy that goes through and licks all the chips in the bag so no one else wants any?
Title: Re: Respect - Honor - Fair Play
Post by: FLOTSOM on January 04, 2009, 06:03:57 PM
So you the kind of guy that goes through and licks all the chips in the bag so no one else wants any?

 :rofl  :rofl

whether i am that kind of guy or not would not really be the point here. but instead would you bother to steal and eat any of the chips in my bag after i had licked them? are you that kind of guy? are you a chip thief worried about losing your niche?

now in the answer to that question would you find the answer to solve the problem.

booming and zooming through the crowd and just scoring a ping or two on multiple ac would produce a host of its own problems.

for instance, if i watched a country man doing this i would denounce him by name for his gamy treachery on 200. i would also let all other countrymen in the area know on channel that this particular scumbag needs to die before they killed any of the enemy present.

i would also gladly continuously boom and zoom in front of this said scumbag hoping that he will take the shots and eventually kill shoot himself as i buzz through. i wouldnt even bother shooting at the red guys, just keep him from taking any shots. hell id happily up a 262 just for this purpose.

whats he gonna do? complain that i am doing to him what he is trying to do to others? who exactly is he gonna complain to? who would sympathize with him?

now if multiple pilots did this to this individual in a concerted effort, if every time he ups he kills only himself, how much fun will he have? what would be the point in him even taking off? how long do you think it would take for him to learn to behave?

there are many ways for the society to police itself if it takes the time to try.

FLOTSOM
Title: Re: Respect - Honor - Fair Play
Post by: Murdr on January 04, 2009, 06:16:54 PM
I see the repeated theme of, "if you see a 2 v 1, no need to make it 3-4-5-6 v 1 if it's not directly related to some base op in progress, ie, off to the side or away from a major-ish furball."  And, frankly, it's poor tactics.

This has been pretty much my most consistent gripe over the years, senseless gangbanging a fight in progress - trust me even "vets" do this thing, I can easily dig up posts from 2002-04 showing this.  I can understand newbies doing this since they don't really know better and are only wanting to kill something

On the other hand.  If I see the majority of my friendlies within visual ganging 1 con low, I will dive in an remove their target without a second thought.  I don't care about the kill though I do get it a surprising amount of times.  What I do care about is being stuck as the only friendly with any energy when the next wave of higher enemies come in.  The sooner the distraction is removed, the better off my tactical situation is :)

What I find more annoying is that the "friendlies" will avoid any high con like the plague.  Until after someone with some nads works the bogie until they gain the upperhand 1v1.  Then all the bottomfeeders suddenly want to join in and start shoulder shooting.
Title: Re: Respect - Honor - Fair Play
Post by: FALCONWING on January 04, 2009, 08:40:56 PM
This is the kind of stuff that drives me nuts!! Why would a person WANT to be the 15th or 20th guy in on a fight? To me, if I see a squad hitting a base I might do a bit of an end around and pork the bases behind the one the squad is hitting to help them out, it also has the advantage of pulling numbers away from their fight to defend against me, AND starts another fight !

Yesterday rooks were getting hammered in orange. We started out defending our main island then took the port on the north tip, then the cv, then on to A24. Numbers were relatively even, the fights were good for the most part.... did have some guys thinking running to ack was more important than fighting...but then the Bish horde gets together. I have no idea of the numbers, but I didn't both aiming in the WW I was in, I just held the trigger down and racked the sky. I got 3 before ghi dive bombed me in a B26 (another lame move). They captured a couple of bases, then jumped to the Knight front and ran off 5 or 6 more captures to win the war. The rest of the night was down hill from there.... cap numbers all a mess... people complaining about hordes... even saw a few congratulating each other for getting all those perks for winning the war !  LOL!!!

I don't understand some of this. How much fun is it really if your the 16th guy in on a base capture mission.... towns flat, vh is down, no GVs, vulch lite is lite but nobodys upping and heaven forbid you drop your bombs on the field !!! Wheres the fun in that? In a 3 on 1 fight yesterday, and ALL THREE HAD TOO GO FOR THE HO ! why? Am I such a big threat ?? I even ask the guy who killed me...on his 3rd pass why the HOs, he never answered, I'm think he was embarrassed... at least I hope he was. Maybe one thing leads to another.... you fly in the horde, so you MUST take every shot you can get, even a HO because you have to beat the rest of the horde to the kill.

Dude i have no idea what your in game cpid is..if it is fugitive then i am not even aware of you...i would think someone who routinely opposes missions would stick out in my mind...im going to guess we haven't ever killed each other...

secondly...did you even bother to read urchins post i was responding to???  i was replying to why its hard to find 1 v 1's in the MA and you seemed to think i was encouraging hording???  please save us both time and try comprehending the point of a post prior to replying...

OF COURSE NOBODY WANTS TO BE THE 15th PLANE TO A FIGHT...are you that dense that you seem to feel the need to tell people something they already know?  But when you fly a large dar bar over to 38 and find noone ups to fight you, then sometimes you do fight over the few kills to be had.  BTW I was at the base 38 you were referring too...it took us two complete town kills to get it...im guessing 1/2 hour.  It was a base on the rook main island...who would have thought the rooks wouldn't defend it??? When you popped up in the whirblewind there were 5 planes trying to cap and two if us were bingo...If you got out of a whirblewind in which you are admittedly not even aiming in and got a few squaddies to break the cap you might not get bombed and have to whine about it...holy cow your post is so full of what is wrong with the whiners it is incredible....did you consider launching from a nearby base and winging up with a few guys to break the cap???   NO...to griefers like you it is OTHERs responsibility to let you have fun the way you want it...
Title: Re: Respect - Honor - Fair Play
Post by: The Fugitive on January 04, 2009, 10:56:51 PM
Dude i have no idea what your in game cpid is..if it is fugitive then i am not even aware of you...i would think someone who routinely opposes missions would stick out in my mind...im going to guess we haven't ever killed each other...

secondly...did you even bother to read urchins post i was responding to???  i was replying to why its hard to find 1 v 1's in the MA and you seemed to think i was encouraging hording???  please save us both time and try comprehending the point of a post prior to replying...

OF COURSE NOBODY WANTS TO BE THE 15th PLANE TO A FIGHT...are you that dense that you seem to feel the need to tell people something they already know?  But when you fly a large dar bar over to 38 and find noone ups to fight you, then sometimes you do fight over the few kills to be had.  BTW I was at the base 38 you were referring too...it took us two complete town kills to get it...im guessing 1/2 hour.  It was a base on the rook main island...who would have thought the rooks wouldn't defend it??? When you popped up in the whirblewind there were 5 planes trying to cap and two if us were bingo...If you got out of a whirblewind in which you are admittedly not even aiming in and got a few squaddies to break the cap you might not get bombed and have to whine about it...holy cow your post is so full of what is wrong with the whiners it is incredible....did you consider launching from a nearby base and winging up with a few guys to break the cap???   NO...to griefers like you it is OTHERs responsibility to let you have fun the way you want it...


Calm down !!! I think it is you who should try reading a bit more here.

This is the quote I quoted...
Quote
Your point is well taken...but I don't think it reflects the character of individual players as much as what was bound to occur when you have 350+ in an arena...especially a small map...

You use terms like "herd" but in a large plane encounter only a small percentage are probably tuned to each other...but green planes help green planes and attack red planes...i think it is that simple...and when there are lots of planes then the 1 v 1's, 2 v 2's disappear....

I was agreeing with you, and the bold section as it happens to fit with what I posted which was "too many people follow the horde", which then brings the statement of "why would anybody want to be the 15th person in on a fight".

you then start your post off with this....

Dude i have no idea what your in game cpid is..if it is fugitive then i am not even aware of you...

and follow it up with....

.... BTW I was at the base 38 you were referring too...it took us two complete town kills to get it...im guessing 1/2 hour.  It was a base on the rook main island...who would have thought the rooks wouldn't defend it??? When you popped up in the whirblewind there were 5 planes trying to cap and two if us were bingo...


so which is it...do you know my name or not ???

For the record I was talking about A26 which is NOT on the mainland, and I'm guessing happened much earlier in the day.  It was Jokers for the most part and one other squad that had big numbers on at the same time for the Bish.

If you read back I havn't picked on any squad, nor running missions...other than the kids squads running NOE after NOEs as their main attack. I even complimented your squad on the well run ops that I have run into complaining only that you seem to concentrate your numbers in one spot....taking the fun away from the defenders. Thats one of the reasons I stopped running missions as the CO of the Mafia. It was getting too hard to run missions that were both fun for the squad with out being a "griefer" to the other teams.

I agree, in the old days the numbers were smaller so it made things a bit more intimate, you had a pretty good idea who was coming or who was likely to be defending when you attacked. I think with the bigger numbers it could still happen, but it would take a bit more work. A good example is the fight I was talking about at A26. In stead of the Jokers AND the other squad they were working with hitting each base together with over whelming force, they could have split their forces and had the Jokers hit the Rooks, and the other squad hit the Knights. More fights, more even numbers better time had by all, right?

I've played these games for over 10 years. Started as MDJOE in AW before it was called "classic", then here once AW close as MDJOE untill Tour 65 when I changed my name to Fugitive. Some call me Fugi  :D I couldn't care less if "your not even aware of me". I fly to have fun. The squad I'm in is just a bunch of guys out to tell jokes and shoot down planes. This thread was started to get a conversation going about what we think might be considered Respect- Honor - and fair play. I've posted my thoughts....you posted your uninformed rants ... well done  :aok   

Title: Re: Respect - Honor - Fair Play
Post by: LYNX on January 05, 2009, 09:54:52 AM
Why do I keep reading this thread as.... Respect - Honor - Four Play ?  <walks off>  Hey Fraud mate .....I wanna have a word with you about something.
Title: Re: Respect - Honor - Fair Play
Post by: FireDrgn on January 05, 2009, 10:06:57 AM
Easily possible to get 25 kills without stealing kills, If youre flynig a p51. Now if he got 100+ in a p40b, then you start wondering :D


Lets be real about this there is no way he got 25 1v1  :rofl..  Your missing the point anyways...
Title: Re: Respect - Honor - Fair Play
Post by: iTunes on January 05, 2009, 10:57:38 AM
Speaking for myself here: I'll never ho, I don't run, I'll fight anu odds anywhere, anytime, win or lose, it's all about the fight in my book.
Title: Re: Respect - Honor - Fair Play
Post by: Getback on January 05, 2009, 10:59:25 AM
I'll fight any odds anywhere, anytime, win or lose, it's all about the fight in my book.

He will!


Ooops, had to modify it a bit or it looked bad.  :rofl :rofl
Title: Re: Respect - Honor - Fair Play
Post by: Joker2 on January 05, 2009, 11:50:39 AM
Nothing is better than allowing a superior performing Spit16 to dive on my 38 and eventually wearing him down to the point I can get a guns solution on him. It is a high beyond measure!

If you only engage when you have the advantage, you will find yourself meat any time you do not have that advantage. Do you want to be the hunter or the hunted? Sometimes, the hunter isn't the guy with the better plane and more altitude...
I agree with you here delirium.
I also enjoy the furball and the good fights, problem is that most only engage from superior position and ultimately turn the fight into a HO match.

I can't count the amount of times i have reversed a Spixteen with alt only to get HO'ed by him or some just off the field Hurri or more often than not some 500mph partially compressed pony looking for the easy kill.

I would rather die during a furball than have someone come save me.

The problem is that alot of people some have posted in here and i won't name names in an effort to curtail the mudslinging, spend 30 minutes climbing to 30k then BNZ engaged targets and then pound their chests on 200 about how they shot you down or blame your SA or some other BS that suites them at that moment.

I can count on 1 hand the amount of people who play this game that actually have honor.
Most act like or are children I myself have been sucked into this behavior in the past.
But i have recently refrained as much as possible from engageing channel 200.

Then even when someone does call you out 9 out of 10 use some excuse to get out of the DA?
So they can continue to run their mouths. It is this type of behavior which ruins the game.

I love this game the challenges the strategy the victory and the defeat.
But to say that the only way to take base is NOE or by hording and vulching and to mock that publicly and then the first base i up from is currently being vulched by those same anti horde anti vulch people who expressed their displeasure because it was them getting vulched or horded, but when shoe is on the other foot it's all good.

I don't know if i have made any sense?

soooo many things to say i don't think i can cover them all but just my oppinion.

tell me how you feel.
Title: Re: Respect - Honor - Fair Play
Post by: waystin2 on January 05, 2009, 12:06:31 PM
What I find more annoying is that the "friendlies" will avoid any high con like the plague.  Until after someone with some nads works the bogie until they gain the upperhand 1v1.  Then all the bottomfeeders suddenly want to join in and start shoulder shooting.

Too true Sir.  I always will engage or attempt to engage the biggest threat.  Usually this is the enemy con with the most altitude.  This had led to some of my funnest fights and my biggest disappointments.  The disappointment comes from working uphill for 5 minutes or more, fighting the con all the way down, and then receiving the unwanted help of 5 or more countrymen shoulder shooting at a nice slow target.  I just tell them that they need to start buttering their own rolls!
Title: Re: Respect - Honor - Fair Play
Post by: Getback on January 05, 2009, 02:51:18 PM

tell me how you feel.

Fairly much the same. Except I hate losing but I like to learn but to learn I sometimes have to lose. Which I hate. Might be a vicious circle here. Sometimes I believe people seem to be genetically encoded to fly the way they do. I don't fly the way I did in AW for sure. This game is way more complicated than that. Still though I see people flying the exact way they did in AW. I guess the KISS concept is in effect.

My personal feelings are fly the way you enjoy the game and understand that there is no honorable way to get a kill. Like Delerium I enjoy the uphill fight and if I win, and that is seldom, it is immensley satisfying. Still I see no need to boast about it. I don't know if the guy had stick issues or if that was the first time he flew that plane or if his wife went running through the house naked or whatever the issue.

As far as 200 is concerned I pretty much monitor it but say little and boast less. The only time I semi boasted was when I was in a lancaster bombing a vh. A spit came in and I shot him down. Then he came back and had to fly over a sector to do it. By that time I was heading home. When he ins me he crashes into my buffs and loses a wing. I told him over 200 that revenge is no good for him.  :D
Title: Re: Respect - Honor - Fair Play
Post by: bongaroo on January 05, 2009, 03:16:16 PM
Some of the "Better Sticks" in the game that can kick butt in 1v1's  are often the 3rd or 4th guy on the lone con..
Some of the  better sticks in this game are the ones to blame for the suckage that goes on.  They spend as much time pissing people off as the newbies do.  The difference is the newbies are ignorant of the dweebness....If the good sticks are doing it why learn any differant....


The good sticks are more guilty of the kill still... and the gang than any noob in the MA...

The good sticks are the ones that are always there picking you when your in the rolling scissors with someone.....

The good sticks never break off and let you have a 1v1.....

The Ma Sucks because of the Good sticks just as much as the noobs.  You all dont hold your self's to any higher standard than the newbs.....

I would like to tell you that it blows my mind that the good sticks come in here and rant about honor and respect..... I say BS  you liars......

Shut up or I will just start posting videos of the lameness....


I can remember the list of good sticks that show respect in this game and this list is real short............

Its because of players like Urchin that I have respect for, that I have learned respect for others in this game... Because of him and those like him I know its ok to lets someone have a 1v1.  I know its ok to let a smoking 205 that just kicked uncle to land with his 3 victories...and the list goes on....



<S>  FireDrgn



I really really really want some of the people who always spout off that the vets and good sticks that are themselves performing these actions to show us some names, or even better video evidence.

I think the first problem we are experiencing is what determines a "vet" or good stick.  I know how I decide who a good stick is and what constitutes a "vet".  Problem is I have no idea how you are deciding this.

I see a good stick as one who avoids the HO for a clean merge.  A good stick doesn't jump into a fight to become the 3rd or 4th chasing a single red guy.  A good stick doesn't run multiple sectors avoiding a fight.  A good stick knows how useless much of the score page is.  A good stick doesn't start PMing people to start cursing them out over loosing a fight.  A good stick doesn't need to stay in ENY 5 planes to win a fight and usually won't be found in one.  (Funny that what I consider a good stick doesn't even involve landing huge numbers of kills or capturing the most bases, huh?)

By this criteria everything you just accused vets or good sticks of doing in fact shows me that they are not good sticks and as such you shouldn't be emulating their behaviors to become a "good stick".

Make sense?

----------------------------------------------------------------------

I can't count the amount of times i have reversed a Spixteen with alt only to get HO'ed by him or some just off the field Hurri or more often than not some 500mph partially compressed pony looking for the easy kill.

Perhaps I'm confusing you with another Joker cpid, but I can't count the amount of times I have had to chase you a long ways just to see you attempt the roll with forward stick defense.  So lame.  Why would you complain of others equally dweeby flying?
Title: Re: Respect - Honor - Fair Play
Post by: FALCONWING on January 05, 2009, 07:32:44 PM

Calm down !!! I think it is you who should try reading a bit more here.

This is the quote I quoted...
I was agreeing with you, and the bold section as it happens to fit with what I posted which was "too many people follow the horde", which then brings the statement of "why would anybody want to be the 15th person in on a fight".

you then start your post off with this....

and follow it up with....


so which is it...do you know my name or not ???

For the record I was talking about A26 which is NOT on the mainland, and I'm guessing happened much earlier in the day.  It was Jokers for the most part and one other squad that had big numbers on at the same time for the Bish.

If you read back I havn't picked on any squad, nor running missions...other than the kids squads running NOE after NOEs as their main attack. I even complimented your squad on the well run ops that I have run into complaining only that you seem to concentrate your numbers in one spot....taking the fun away from the defenders. Thats one of the reasons I stopped running missions as the CO of the Mafia. It was getting too hard to run missions that were both fun for the squad with out being a "griefer" to the other teams.

I agree, in the old days the numbers were smaller so it made things a bit more intimate, you had a pretty good idea who was coming or who was likely to be defending when you attacked. I think with the bigger numbers it could still happen, but it would take a bit more work. A good example is the fight I was talking about at A26. In stead of the Jokers AND the other squad they were working with hitting each base together with over whelming force, they could have split their forces and had the Jokers hit the Rooks, and the other squad hit the Knights. More fights, more even numbers better time had by all, right?

I've played these games for over 10 years. Started as MDJOE in AW before it was called "classic", then here once AW close as MDJOE untill Tour 65 when I changed my name to Fugitive. Some call me Fugi  :D I couldn't care less if "your not even aware of me". I fly to have fun. The squad I'm in is just a bunch of guys out to tell jokes and shoot down planes. This thread was started to get a conversation going about what we think might be considered Respect- Honor - and fair play. I've posted my thoughts....you posted your uninformed rants ... well done  :aok   



If I misinterpreted your intent with your post then i sincerely apologize....I do remember mdjoe btw :salute
Title: Re: Respect - Honor - Fair Play
Post by: Joker2 on January 05, 2009, 08:20:51 PM
Bongaroo i don't know ur in game id but i can tell u this. if had to chase i was probably out of fuel rtb or winchester.
And lets face it u probably jumped my six after i shot one of ur buddies down.
So who is lame really?

Chaseing a plane RTB, cuz you yourself are probably exactly what i'm talking about.

But u will try to use my comments against me.

I can tell u this also i have never ducked a DA, and if i do i will say no point u r better than me.

Many people have beat me in DA i always admit to it.

Most i beat lie when they get back to MA.

So in closing I will say same i always say stop whining STFU or take me to DA.
Any1 who wants some knows where to find me.

Title: Re: Respect - Honor - Fair Play
Post by: bongaroo on January 05, 2009, 10:18:39 PM
Bongaroo i don't know ur in game id but i can tell u this. if had to chase i was probably out of fuel rtb or winchester.
And lets face it u probably jumped my six after i shot one of ur buddies down.
So who is lame really?

Chaseing a plane RTB, cuz you yourself are probably exactly what i'm talking about.

But u will try to use my comments against me.

I can tell u this also i have never ducked a DA, and if i do i will say no point u r better than me.

Many people have beat me in DA i always admit to it.

Most i beat lie when they get back to MA.

So in closing I will say same i always say stop whining STFU or take me to DA.
Any1 who wants some knows where to find me.



I'll be sure to ask you to the DA when we meet again.  Also my in game is posted in my sig.  420ace in case you miss that again.
Title: Re: Respect - Honor - Fair Play
Post by: chrish483 on January 06, 2009, 02:59:10 AM
without reading every thing in this post,
i think theres alot of honor with the people that have play'd for along time and have gotten to know the names of the people.

like i like to yank the chain of SHawk once in awile all in fun tho or even one shot Wonder,  these are long time players and i respect them.

alot of it is just playing the game and getting to know the other players and there abilities <and> keep  a cool head and just try to out think them.

im probly hated too for shooting down alot of you guys,  but thats what were here for,  the fun and chalenge of it and forget that aspect of this game,   want something simple buy one and beat the game in a week or so but this game is truly fun.

LTARsmkr
Title: Re: Respect - Honor - Fair Play
Post by: Joker2 on January 06, 2009, 12:00:08 PM
I'll be sure to ask you to the DA when we meet again.  Also my in game is posted in my sig.  420ace in case you miss that again.
Aren't you the lamer tiffie picktard?
Or is it a pony lamer.
Title: Re: Respect - Honor - Fair Play
Post by: ink on January 06, 2009, 12:11:17 PM


...I see a good stick as one who avoids the HO for a clean merge.  A good stick doesn't jump into a fight to become the 3rd or 4th chasing a single red guy.  A good stick doesn't run multiple sectors avoiding a fight.  A good stick knows how useless much of the score page is.  A good stick doesn't start PMing people to start cursing them out over loosing a fight.  A good stick doesn't need to stay in ENY 5 planes to win a fight and usually won't be found in one.  (Funny that what I consider a good stick doesn't even involve landing huge numbers of kills or capturing the most bases, huh?)...


 :salute

thank-you by this definition I am the epitome of "good stick"
sweeeeet :D
Title: Re: Respect - Honor - Fair Play
Post by: bongaroo on January 06, 2009, 01:43:40 PM
Aren't you the lamer tiffie picktard?
Or is it a pony lamer.

You could check my stats.  I mostly fly the Ki-84 or the P-38J.  I dabble with other planes as well.  Betty tried to get me to fly that typhoon but I don't like it that much.  I don't fly the pony that much either.

But good try...   :rolleyes:

:salute

thank-you by this definition I am the epitome of "good stick"
sweeeeet :D

Pretty much.  Hope to see you up in the cartoon skies sometime.
Title: Re: Respect - Honor - Fair Play
Post by: Joker2 on January 06, 2009, 03:26:15 PM
You could check my stats.  I mostly fly the Ki-84 or the P-38J.  I dabble with other planes as well.  Betty tried to get me to fly that typhoon but I don't like it that much.  I don't fly the pony that much either.

But good try...   :rolleyes:

Pretty much.  Hope to see you up in the cartoon skies sometime.
Good advice i checked ur stats and turns out that in the last 5 months u have no kills on me sooooo...

I think u must be confusing me with someone else.

U Rook or Nit?
Title: Re: Respect - Honor - Fair Play
Post by: Bosco123 on January 06, 2009, 03:34:19 PM
You know whats funny is, most of you people who whine about Vulching and hording, and only think that 1v1 is the only way, actually think that its some how going to help in real life. Yes, I know how to 1v1 in this game, and I know I'm pretty dam good at it. But take this into consideration: I'm 16, would I rather learn how to work with other people interactively in real life, or would I like to be the loner that only knows how to work with himself? Most of you guys who complain about it now, are probably retired and would much rather work alone. As for me, on the other hand, I know that the only way to get around in the world in real life, is to interact.

Like Joker said, anytime you see me in the MA, or DA (it's just Bosco BTW) just PM me, and I would be glad to fight you. Personally, I would rather do it in the DA, were you won't get ganged at the first sign of trouble, insted of the MA, and that's why I fly completely differently in the MA, than I do in the DA.
Title: Re: Respect - Honor - Fair Play
Post by: bongaroo on January 06, 2009, 03:36:48 PM
Good advice i checked ur stats and turns out that in the last 5 months u have no kills on me sooooo...

I think u must be confusing me with someone else.

U Rook or Nit?

This incident would have been before this summer maybe even longer ago.  And I can think of at least two people with Joker in their name so perhaps that would be it. 

I mostly fly bish but I float around a lot.

its some how going to help in real life.

If you think anything in this game is going to be helpful in real life, I'm afraid you are going to be a little disappointed.  Learning to take care of yourself and not need to rely on others will make you a better assest when you are working with others though.
Title: Re: Respect - Honor - Fair Play
Post by: Joker2 on January 06, 2009, 03:53:22 PM
This incident would have been before this summer maybe even longer ago.  And I can think of at least two people with Joker in their name so perhaps that would be it. 

I mostly fly bish but I float around a lot.

If you think anything in this game is going to be helpful in real life, I'm afraid you are going to be a little disappointed.  Learning to take care of yourself and not need to rely on others will make you a better assest when you are working with others though.
420ace maybe u should just leave this one alone.

I'm the J0KER of the Bish Jokers Jokers,
Name ring a bell now?
Title: Re: Respect - Honor - Fair Play
Post by: Twizzty on January 06, 2009, 04:08:38 PM
Welcome to the AH BBS J0KER!  :aok enjoy it!  :uhoh

<S>
Title: Re: Respect - Honor - Fair Play
Post by: bongaroo on January 06, 2009, 06:59:46 PM
420ace maybe u should just leave this one alone.

I'm the J0KER of the Bish Jokers Jokers,
Name ring a bell now?

ummm...nope.  Should I have?
[/sarcasm]

I'm pretty sure I know exactly who you are and how you fly and it's not just how you've just spoken of yourself or how you've spoken to me, but I in fact know and avoid being near your horde or squad or whatever you have going.  :D
Title: Re: Respect - Honor - Fair Play
Post by: NoBaddy on January 06, 2009, 07:36:09 PM
I'm the J0KER of the Bish Jokers Jokers,
Name ring a bell now?

 :O Are you important?  :O

Title: Re: Respect - Honor - Fair Play
Post by: Guppy35 on January 06, 2009, 08:18:57 PM
:O Are you important?  :O



Must be one of those AH legends :)

That and a dollar might get you a can of coke. :aok
Title: Re: Respect - Honor - Fair Play
Post by: Ack-Ack on January 06, 2009, 08:29:10 PM
:O Are you important?  :O



Silly NB, he's a Lemming among Lemmings.


ack-ack
Title: Re: Respect - Honor - Fair Play
Post by: Masherbrum on January 06, 2009, 08:35:45 PM
:O Are you important?  :O

Oh snap!!!!  He went there!    :uhoh
Title: Re: Respect - Honor - Fair Play
Post by: bongaroo on January 06, 2009, 08:37:37 PM
INcoming detected.
Title: Re: Respect - Honor - Fair Play
Post by: The Fugitive on January 06, 2009, 08:49:56 PM
You know whats funny is, most of you people who whine about Vulching and hording, and only think that 1v1 is the only way, actually think that its some how going to help in real life. Yes, I know how to 1v1 in this game, and I know I'm pretty dam good at it. But take this into consideration: I'm 16, would I rather learn how to work with other people interactively in real life, or would I like to be the loner that only knows how to work with himself? Most of you guys who complain about it now, are probably retired and would much rather work alone. As for me, on the other hand, I know that the only way to get around in the world in real life, is to interact.

Like Joker said, anytime you see me in the MA, or DA (it's just Bosco BTW) just PM me, and I would be glad to fight you. Personally, I would rather do it in the DA, were you won't get ganged at the first sign of trouble, insted of the MA, and that's why I fly completely differently in the MA, than I do in the DA.



Your an "all or nothing" kind of guy ain't you!  Nobody said anything about STOPPING NOE's, nobody said anything about STOPPING missions. People are complaining about lame play, not missions, not group activities. Running the same NOE over and over again is lame, When the NOE fails running off to NOE some other "hopefully undefended" base is lame, HOin is lame, dive bombing with hvy buffs is lame.

Thats what we are discussing here disrespectful, lame, "gaming the game " type of community. Most of us would just like to see it cleaned up a bit. Run your missions, I love trying to break them up, as do most any one else. Work together as most do whether in missions or winging with squadmates. Nobodies saying anything about stopping the "fun"...unless your an "A"hole and like to do nothing but piss people off and you consider THAT fun... just to stop the lame stuff would be great all around.
Title: Re: Respect - Honor - Fair Play
Post by: LYNX on January 06, 2009, 11:04:23 PM
420ace maybe u should just leave this one alone.

I'm the J0KER of the Bish Jokers Jokers,
Name ring a bell now?



(http://www.pic4ever.com/images/d2.gif)






 :rofl
Title: Re: Respect - Honor - Fair Play
Post by: FLOTSOM on January 07, 2009, 12:38:50 AM


(http://www.pic4ever.com/images/d2.gif)

 :rofl

LYNX you DA MAN!!!! :rofl  :rofl  :rofl  :rofl

well except when you on the bottom that is..................but thats a discussion for a whole other thread though......

<S>

FLOTSOM
Title: Re: Respect - Honor - Fair Play
Post by: AWwrgwy on January 07, 2009, 03:43:43 AM
Silly NB, he's a Lemming among Lemmings.


ack-ack


(http://img383.imageshack.us/img383/4967/2697096555c89efa0bc1hf3.jpg)


wrongway
Title: Re: Respect - Honor - Fair Play
Post by: Rich46yo on January 07, 2009, 06:58:27 AM
Must be one of those AH legends :)

That and a dollar might get you a can of coke. :aok

Is that why they keep flinging those resumes back in my face?

Maybe if I improved my score......yathink?
Title: Re: Respect - Honor - Fair Play
Post by: Twizzty on January 07, 2009, 08:21:02 AM
(http://www.onpoi.net/ah/pics/users/1189_1213895929_survival.jpg)
Title: Re: Respect - Honor - Fair Play
Post by: Hajo on January 07, 2009, 08:54:23 AM
Twizzty  :O

 :rofl :rofl :rofl
Title: Re: Respect - Honor - Fair Play
Post by: Joker2 on January 07, 2009, 09:20:27 AM


(http://www.pic4ever.com/images/d2.gif)


That's better Lynx.

Kneel before me.
Startin to like you.







 :rofl
Title: Re: Respect - Honor - Fair Play
Post by: Shane on January 07, 2009, 09:50:36 AM

(http://img383.imageshack.us/img383/4967/2697096555c89efa0bc1hf3.jpg)


wrongway

heh that should be my avatar - matches my sig.   :aok
Title: Re: Respect - Honor - Fair Play
Post by: humble on January 07, 2009, 10:36:26 AM
You know whats funny is, most of you people who whine about Vulching and hording, and only think that 1v1 is the only way, actually think that its some how going to help in real life. Yes, I know how to 1v1 in this game, and I know I'm pretty dam good at it. But take this into consideration: I'm 16, would I rather learn how to work with other people interactively in real life, or would I like to be the loner that only knows how to work with himself? Most of you guys who complain about it now, are probably retired and would much rather work alone. As for me, on the other hand, I know that the only way to get around in the world in real life, is to interact.

Like Joker said, anytime you see me in the MA, or DA (it's just Bosco BTW) just PM me, and I would be glad to fight you. Personally, I would rather do it in the DA, were you won't get ganged at the first sign of trouble, insted of the MA, and that's why I fly completely differently in the MA, than I do in the DA.

This is somewhat off topic but I'll comment...

I'm 50 but I built 3 companies from scratch to net yearly revenues of 1MM+ before the age of 40. While teamwork is essential to success the real key to growth is identifying and nurturing those people who will rise above and beyond expectations. The majority of those people are intensely competitive and driven to individual benchmarks to measure success. Any good senior manager knows that eagles don't flock together and that you'll normally only have them for a period of time, but if you harness their talents and nurture them you can reap tremendous rewards before they move on. Every major company on the planet is overburdened by an awful lot of people that "interact". If we view your earlier posts that clearly indicate a focus on numbers vs efficiency and creativity what you see is the real life counterpart of a bloated and non competitive enterprise. The MA has little relevance in gaging a squads actual capabilities anymore IMO.
Title: Re: Respect - Honor - Fair Play
Post by: Getback on January 07, 2009, 10:59:49 AM
This is somewhat off topic but I'll comment...

I'm 50 but I built 3 companies from scratch to net yearly revenues of 1MM+ before the age of 40. While teamwork is essential to success the real key to growth is identifying and nurturing those people who will rise above and beyond expectations. The majority of those people are intensely competitive and driven to individual benchmarks to measure success. Any good senior manager knows that eagles don't flock together and that you'll normally only have them for a period of time, but if you harness their talents and nurture them you can reap tremendous rewards before they move on. Every major company on the planet is overburdened by an awful lot of people that "interact". If we view your earlier posts that clearly indicate a focus on numbers vs efficiency and creativity what you see is the real life counterpart of a bloated and non competitive enterprise. The MA has little relevance in gaging a squads actual capabilities anymore IMO.

Don't know any company that thrived without teamwork or basketball team or football team or even building a house etc.
Title: Re: Respect - Honor - Fair Play
Post by: dentin on January 07, 2009, 11:01:54 AM
This is somewhat off topic but I'll comment...

I'm 50 but I built 3 companies from scratch to net yearly revenues of 1MM+ before the age of 40. While teamwork is essential to success the real key to growth is identifying and nurturing those people who will rise above and beyond expectations. The majority of those people are intensely competitive and driven to individual benchmarks to measure success. Any good senior manager knows that eagles don't flock together and that you'll normally only have them for a period of time, but if you harness their talents and nurture them you can reap tremendous rewards before they move on. Every major company on the planet is overburdened by an awful lot of people that "interact". If we view your earlier posts that clearly indicate a focus on numbers vs efficiency and creativity what you see is the real life counterpart of a bloated and non competitive enterprise. The MA has little relevance in gaging a squads actual capabilities anymore IMO.

A " good senior manager "  also knows the origin of " Eagles don't flock, you have to find them one at a time."..H. Ross Perot.  :P



Title: Re: Respect - Honor - Fair Play
Post by: humble on January 07, 2009, 11:54:20 AM
Don't know any company that thrived without teamwork or basketball team or football team or even building a house etc.

A lot of people confuse teamwork and leadership. Like I said this is a bit off topic, but since Bosco is young and his intentions are obviously good I thought it worth the post. In the business sense I am an "eagle". I made other people significant money in return for guidance and mentoring, built my own companies and in turn mentored over a dozen others who now run successful businesses. Teamwork evolves from leadership and leaders march to their own cadence. I would hazard to guess that a significant % of the lone rangers bosco refers to are reasonably successful IRL. That in no way is meant to imply that others who play differently are not. I just know from personal experience that most "eagles" I've met gravitate to individual recreational activities like golf, flying, motocross or other individual types of challenge. True teamwork flows from leadership not interaction. As one of my personal mentors often said...if you need to look back to check if they're coming then your just wishing...not leading.
Title: Re: Respect - Honor - Fair Play
Post by: CAP1 on January 07, 2009, 12:01:14 PM
Don't know any company that thrived without teamwork or basketball team or football team or even building a house etc.

companies need a basketball, and football team to thrive? and they have to build a house? dammit!! that's what i've been doign wrong!!
Title: Re: Respect - Honor - Fair Play
Post by: Getback on January 07, 2009, 12:06:48 PM
companies need a basketball, and football team to thrive? and they have to build a house? dammit!! that's what i've been doign wrong!!

Poorly worded  :lol :lol
Title: Re: Respect - Honor - Fair Play
Post by: Joker2 on January 07, 2009, 12:13:12 PM
A lot of people confuse teamwork and leadership. Like I said this is a bit off topic, but since Bosco is young and his intentions are obviously good I thought it worth the post. In the business sense I am an "eagle". I made other people significant money in return for guidance and mentoring, built my own companies and in turn mentored over a dozen others who now run successful businesses. Teamwork evolves from leadership and leaders march to their own cadence. I would hazard to guess that a significant % of the lone rangers bosco refers to are reasonably successful IRL. That in no way is meant to imply that others who play differently are not. I just know from personal experience that most "eagles" I've met gravitate to individual recreational activities like golf, flying, motocross or other individual types of challenge. True teamwork flows from leadership not interaction. As one of my personal mentors often said...if you need to look back to check if they're coming then your just wishing...not leading.
I have run a couple businesses myself.
While i understand where you're coming from with you're statement. I would just like to say this No 1 person makes or breaks a large co. and when i say large company I'm talking about having employees in excess of 50 people.
Which BTW in the Grand Scheme of things is a very small Co.

The Co's I work with now are Fortune 100 Companies with thousands of employees.
I can tell you this No 1 Person is responsible for thier success or failure their leader can only affect that not insure it.

Ultimately what you said holds water but does not and will not insure success.

Leadership Combined with talent Does.
Title: Re: Respect - Honor - Fair Play
Post by: BaldEagl on January 07, 2009, 12:34:18 PM
This is somewhat off topic but I'll comment...

I'm 50 but I built 3 companies from scratch to net yearly revenues of 1MM+ before the age of 40. While teamwork is essential to success the real key to growth is identifying and nurturing those people who will rise above and beyond expectations. The majority of those people are intensely competitive and driven to individual benchmarks to measure success. Any good senior manager knows that eagles don't flock together and that you'll normally only have them for a period of time, but if you harness their talents and nurture them you can reap tremendous rewards before they move on. Every major company on the planet is overburdened by an awful lot of people that "interact". If we view your earlier posts that clearly indicate a focus on numbers vs efficiency and creativity what you see is the real life counterpart of a bloated and non competitive enterprise. The MA has little relevance in gaging a squads actual capabilities anymore IMO.

I've been in VP and SVP positions in companies ranging from under $1MM to over $1.5B (and run my own business for a couple of years) at various points throughout my career.  The "eagles" don't flock together.  They compete with one another for corporate resources and bragging rights.  Their job is to provide the vision that moves the company forward and isn't as much to be a team player as it is to create the team that fulfills the vision.  Oh, and BTW, Im a loner in AH too.  I prefer it that way.
Title: Re: Respect - Honor - Fair Play
Post by: bongaroo on January 07, 2009, 01:11:28 PM
I ran a lemonade stand once.  I feel it is very relevant to this conversation.
Title: Re: Respect - Honor - Fair Play
Post by: TwentyFo on January 07, 2009, 01:14:47 PM
"There is honor in losing. Which is we all know completely rediculous. But there is, however, honor in making a loser feel better."

---Michael Scott
Title: Re: Respect - Honor - Fair Play
Post by: wnt2 on January 07, 2009, 01:36:17 PM
I ran a lemonade stand once.  I feel it is very relevant to this conversation.

That's funny right there...i don't care who ya are.  Bravo 420!

wnt2
Title: Re: Respect - Honor - Fair Play
Post by: bongaroo on January 07, 2009, 02:01:33 PM
That's funny right there...i don't care who ya are.  Bravo 420!

wnt2

Everyone else was throwing down the buisness ownership guantlet.  Needed to show I was credentialed to continue participating.

 :D
Title: Re: Respect - Honor - Fair Play
Post by: Bosco123 on January 07, 2009, 03:32:51 PM
I do have some experience with handling in excess of 25+ at one time. You can see the true talent come out when they do what you ask them to do efficiently. There are other people that are just followers and will only do what is necessary to get the job done.
Next year will be my toughest year in school. It's not just the fact that I have to plan on getting into college, but I am going to have to work with at least 200 people all in one Battalion. The leaders are set, and they know what they already have to do, it's the people that have never gone through what I have gone through, that have to get trained constantly, to make sure that it is perfection. Next year, is going to be the hardest year because our battalion goes through a Formal Inspection, that only happens every 3 years. Usually, the leaders that have to go through this, are usually the most proficient than all of the other leaders, from previous years.
Some people you can never train to become "Eagles", but there is always that will go above and beyond what needs to be done, to get it done. That's what meritocracy is.