Aces High Bulletin Board
General Forums => Aces High General Discussion => Topic started by: Getback on February 14, 2009, 09:31:05 AM
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Quote from: MachNix on Yesterday at 11:15:18 PM
So what you are saying, Murdr, is HiTech allows his staff to belittle “bubble communities” and individuals. I can somewhat believe that.
You're saying that, not I. You claimed a "contempt for the community" which is utter BS. The rest as I said was to illustrate a point on your definition of "the community".
Quote from: MachNix on Yesterday at 11:15:18 PM
I don’t see you making any impact in the arenas – maybe our playtimes don’t over lap.
Well, let's take a look. Career stats excluding "gun ship or field"...
MachNix
6202 kills
3004 deaths
2.06 gross k/d
Nice salute
Murdr
26276 kills
8183 deaths
3.21 gross k/d
So as not to hijack another thread I copied the above from the wishlist forum. First of all, great great stats. I deleted some of the paragraphs that had to do with training, map making, research and behind the scenes contributions that make the game great for us all. These are greatly appreciated as well.
Allow me to point out something here. I see many rooks landing multiple kills continuously. Meanwhile while they are landing all these kills Rooks are losing bases left and right. So while everyone is getting high 5s they are losing the war. Basically they are not seeing the forest for the trees. They don't take down troops at even isolated vbases. So if you want to boast about your stats. Please do. However there is much more at stake and much more to the game.
It really reminds me of an old joke. I'll clean it up for political incorrectness. A Rook while driving in his car one day is stopped by a bishop. The bishop pulls him out of the car and draws a circle on the ground and warns the Rook not to move out of the circle. The bishop then proceeds to knocking out the headlights with a baseball bat. He then looks over at the Rook and sees him laughing. So he then breaks out the front windows of the car. Again he looks at the Rook in the circle. The Rook is laughing harder. Getting angry the bishop trashes the rear window, the hood, the trunk and the tail lights. He takes a glance at the Rook again. This time the Rook is on the ground rolling, laughing so hard he has tears coming from his eyes. Finally the Bishop says why are you laughing? I just trashed your car. The Rook replies, When you weren't looking I stepped out of the circle three times. :rofl :rofl :rofl
Now I don't tell anyone how to play or enjoy the game. However stats are very manipulating and can be manipulated it ways most never dream of. They really have no impact on overall game play since the enemy can up another cartoon plane. What has real impact on the game is teamwork and friends. They keep people coming back. Working together for a common goal is a great thing. Not to sit on my high horse, I semi play for score. Do little to no milk runs to factories though. I think maybe 4 times in a year. 2x in bombers and 2x in a gv.
On a personal level I've always admired people like Dredger, Ghi, Joker, and Drone (back in the day). Who figured out long before the rest of us that this game has more to offer than just a few kills. It doesn't surprise me that some of these folks move on to the FSO where they do what they enjoy the most on a massive scale.
Anyway I though I would put this out there as food for thought.
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Using about 3 sentences just tell us what you are saying.
For the record I dont think anythings at stake other then losing a map in a cartoon flight game. Who cares?
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Perhaps you are starting to see something besides the shrubberies around you. :)
Score can be manipulated. Figure out the scoring system and anyone can get a low rank.
Wars are won by numbers, not skill. Chinese Air Farce tactics, while effective, are terminally boring.
It's all about the fight. It's the battles that matter....not the war.
When you figure it out, the game can go to a whole new level. :D
If you don't, you will eventually succumb to the boredom. :frown:
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Allow me to point out something here. I see many rooks landing multiple kills continuously. Meanwhile while they are landing all these kills Rooks are losing bases left and right. So while everyone is getting high 5s they are losing the war. Basically they are not seeing the forest for the trees. They don't take down troops at even isolated vbases. So if you want to boast about your stats. Please do. However there is much more at stake and much more to the game.
In other words, rooks are practicing the art of air combat and ignoring the "war." Sounds like the right approach to me. What the rooks see as a beautiful forest full of hidden pleasures the bish see as something to be clear-cut. :rofl
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I think your worried too much about the trees.
At one point you say your not telling anyone how to play the game and then...
Allow me to point out something here. I see many rooks landing multiple kills continuously. Meanwhile while they are landing all these kills Rooks are losing bases left and right. So while everyone is getting high 5s they are losing the war. Basically they are not seeing the forest for the trees. They don't take down troops at even isolated vbases. So if you want to boast about your stats. Please do. However there is much more at stake and much more to the game.
Your chastising players for not taking down the troops, or trying to win the war. Sorry, but to a lot of people thats not how to play the game.
This game revolves around combat ( so said the owner and designer of the game. Whether that is "fact" or "opinion" Im not sure, Im a bit confused on that part :D ) Everything in the game is put there to generate combat. Fields are capturable, buildings can be destroyed, GV's can be killed by bombs, factories can be blown up, all because as you do these things combat usually ensues. If on the other hand a "furball" happens to be happening between two bases not of the other actions are needed because we already have combat. So to many of us who have moved on from doing these other things strait to the combat part of the game, don't bother us with the drop radar crap.
I don't "play for score" tho I do try to do the best I can in each think I do. I will bomb factories, but towns are just as good, I'll pork factories in a GV, but again towns are just as good. If there is no fight going on I have no problem using the tools HTC has given us to generate combat. Once I get a few people to defend, or push an attack, I'm back in my plane looking for combat. ohh and btw as I type this I'm 54th over all woop-de-doo :rolleyes:
I think too many people are worried about the trees too much. They are afraid to die, loose a base, not capture a base, miss with their bombs, lose a 1 vs 1 fight. This game is all about the fight/combat. If you like fighting to take a base, thats great !! More power to ya, but don't try to sneak in with NOE after NOE. Don't run away if you run into a bit of resistance FIGHT ! That's why we can take bases, so a fight develops and combat can be had. You like fighting in a GV, thats great too ! but don't sit there spawn camping, thats not a fight. It like fishing with dynamite, sure its easy, and for YOU it might be fun, but it sucks for the fish, and admit it there really isn't any challenge to it. And for goodness sake, GET OUT OF THE STINKING HORDES !! You'll learn alot more about flying if you go looking for fights in stead of being plane #5 in on a single enemy racing along on the deck !
There are many ways to "play" the game, but it all boils down to one thing.... combat. If your avoiding it, your in the wrong game, I hear they have the "Axis vs Allie" board game on line now, you might check into it. You belittle rooks for landing multible kills all the while they are loosing bases left and right. Who care, certainly not those of us who have found out what this game is all about..... combat. If the rooks loose enough bases what happens.... the map is reset and we get them all back! and combat continues.
I don't pick on anyones way of playing the game..... as long as they are playing the game, and that means combat. If you like to fly as if you only have one life to live, thats ok, but don't piss and moan if you get too close to a furball and somebody takes your tail off with a snap shot. If you like taking bases, no problem, but fight for it, don't try to avoid the fight by hiding under dar, or hiding behind numbers. Those you mentioned are only average players at best. Take away half their numbers or drop dar to the deck and they wouldn't capture a third of the base they try for. They fight great with their numbers, but haven't much in the way of tactics, but they will fight.... while they have overwhelming numbers. They don't "play the game" they twist things around to justify what they do, and that is avoid combat.
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I deleted some of the paragraphs that had to do with training, map making, research and behind the scenes contributions that make the game great for us all. These are greatly appreciated as well.
Lol, well just clip the point of the post out of the quote...
You're saying that, not I. You claimed a "contempt for the community" which is utter BS. The rest as I said was to illustrate a point on your definition of "the community".
I don’t see you making any impact in the arenas – maybe our playtimes don’t over lap.
Well, let's take a look. Career stats excluding "gun ship or field"...
MachNix
6202 kills
3004 deaths
2.06 gross k/d
Nice :salute
Murdr
26276 kills
8183 deaths
3.21 gross k/d
So it is hard for me to value someone’s, who appears not to be having an impact on the game, criticism of someone else who is having an impact.
You changed one word here, which completely changes the subject matter from my point of view (arena to game). Those are two distinctly different things. There is much more to AH than the never ending war in the most populated LW arena in AH. Every couple months there is a different squad or conglomerate of squads crowing their prowess and innovation in winning the endless MA war. It can still be entertaining to watch after 14 years, but it's still nothing more than a rerun of the same old story. The guys that put countless hours in, making maps, organizing and running events, providing help and training, researching historical and technical documentation and sharing it with HTC. Those are people who have a lasting impact on "the game". Often at the expense of their own available time for actually playing the game. Such contributions are as far as you can get from "contempt" for the community.
Who figured out long before the rest of us that this game has more to offer than just a few kills.
The only word I can come up with is "delusional" if you believe that guys that have 10+ years doing this stuff, completely overlooked this particualr aspect of gameplay. To the contrary, they have likely been there, done that, and moved on years ago.
What has real impact on the game is teamwork and friends.
If we clear the subscribership roles, and all new bodies come in to play AH, let's look at "impact on the game". When a player clicks into an arena, they're likely to be presented with a help tip that someone like Rolex, Hammer, or I wrote. When they enter the arena, they are likely to be on a map that NHawk, NoBaddy, fester or others produced. When they pick a plane, they have the option to select a skin that people like oboe, greebo, Fencer or others produced. When they fly a plane, that planes model is likely affected by historical data that a player took the time to research and share with HTC. When a player needs more than the hamster wheel of the MAs to hold their interest, they have the option of special events that were innovated and refined by the likes of DoKGonzo and Brooke, and played on terrains produced by Dux's terrain team. So if two people were gone from the game tommarow, which of those two really had an impact on the game. The one who gave freely of their time for the enjoyment of all? Or the one who organized team work for a few? One of those two had a tangable lasting effect on the game.
So if you want to boast about your stats. Please do. However there is much more at stake and much more to the game.
No boasting involved. The poster made a comment, and I produced an example to put that comment to the test. With consideration of the fact that the developer has stated over and over that AH simulates combat between accurately modeled planes and vehicles, as opposed to simulating war.
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Murdr...where do you get career stats?
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http://trainers.hitechcreations.com/files look under Spatula's materials
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Thanks....does this find all your old names as well?
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Thanks....does this find all your old names as well?
It does for me, but YMMV since Skuzzy has purged to rolls of inactive names. I'm not sure if that had an effect on the score database.
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Allow me to point out something here. I see many rooks landing multiple kills continuously. Meanwhile while they are landing all these kills Rooks are losing bases left and right. So while everyone is getting high 5s they are losing the war.
The reason why the quoted utterance is errant love muffinery is because the Rooks are full of the sort of squads who sweep the sky on FSO nights. You see, turns out the that myopic obsession with ACM is a big advantage in events where the "war strategy" can not be based upon infinite "lives" and on NOE/hording bases on a map too big for all bases to be defended adequately.
Bah, I tell you, all this talk about teamwork, friends, winning the larger strategy...this is what happens when you let the women get the run of the country and cart the young 'uns off to soccer practice to get their self-esteems affirmed, instead of handing them a rifle and 1 cartridge and telling them to bring back two rabbits...
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love muffinery
I'd like to submit this for consideration for word of the week :)
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In other words, rooks are practicing the art of air combat and ignoring the "war." Sounds like the right approach to me. What the rooks see as a beautiful forest full of hidden pleasures the bish see as something to be clear-cut. :rofl
Why would there be combat with out war?
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Why would there be combat with out war?
I hate to support that lame furballers ;) ...but: There had been air combat in online sims long before the concept of "war" was introduced
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I hate to support that lame furballers ;) ...but: There had been air combat in online sims long before the concept of "war" was introduced
They're gone.
I have nothing against ACM's or landing kills etc. I work on my ACM's continuously. This is just my take and my observations. I furball, gv, and about anything else the game offers. I find strategy and teamwork the most rewarding that's all. But hey if you want to jump me for giving an opinion and an observation please feel free. I have big shoulders. I don't even feel the need to put any one down for their take on things.
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Allow me to point out something here. I see many rooks landing multiple kills continuously. Meanwhile while they are landing all these kills Rooks are losing bases left and right. So while everyone is getting high 5s they are losing the war. Basically they are not seeing the forest for the trees. They don't take down troops at even isolated vbases. So if you want to boast about your stats. Please do. However there is much more at stake and much more to the game.
There may be more at stake for how you choose to play the game. Since the game has multiple objectives, your statement is wholly invalid.
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They're gone.
The genre has evolved. AH more or less a further step in that evolution, especially if you take a look at where Hitech & Pyro have come from.
But still, my post was a simple answer to your implied assumption that without war there would be no combat. :)
It would be different combat, maybe even less combat (and most probably combat without me) ... but still combat.
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Why would there be combat with out war?
Ever visited the dueling arena? People engage in air combat simply because it's fun! Even the dweebs in the pond understand that. :aok
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Ever visited the dueling arena? People engage in air combat simply because it's fun! Even the dweebs in the pond understand that. :aok
Now you've done it.
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My buddy and I used to play this game for hours when we were about 10 years old because it was the first flight sim we found where we could fight each other instead of flying against AI:
(http://www.classicamiga.com/images/stories/jreviews/games/S/SkyChase_002.png)
(http://www.atarimagazines.com/startv3n8/skychase.jpg)
He's in the Air Force now and flies the real thing.
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Ever visited the dueling arena? People engage in air combat simply because it's fun! Even the dweebs in the pond understand that. :aok
Then go there. For those who want more stay in ma.
About a week ago I looked took a look and it was 700 in MA and 20 in DA. Not a strong point for your cause. Maybe you should check now. Bet it is close to the same ratio.
But again let me emphasize this one more time. Fly the way you enjoy the game. I do.
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Then go there. For those who want more stay in ma.
LOL How did I know that was coming.
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LOL How did I know that was coming.
Because it's obvious and well repeated soooooooooooooo much. :rofl :rofl
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Because it's obvious and well repeated soooooooooooooo much. :rofl :rofl
It's obvious to tell people who are "flying the way they enjoy the game" to go elsewhere if their version of enjoyment is different from yours?
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:aok This here Get feller sure nuff contradicts himself a lot.
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Allow me to point out something here. I see many rooks landing multiple kills continuously. Meanwhile while they are landing all these kills Rooks are losing bases left and right. So while everyone is getting high 5s they are losing the war. Basically they are not seeing the forest for the trees. They don't take down troops at even isolated vbases. So if you want to boast about your stats. Please do. However there is much more at stake and much more to the game.
While these Rooks are giving each other high fives for their kills, the horde is giving each other high fives for taking un protected bases...
There's more than one tree blocking the view of the forest it seems.
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While these Rooks are giving each other high fives for their kills, the horde is giving each other high fives for taking un protected bases...
There's more than one tree blocking the view of the forest it seems.
:aok There always is.
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It's obvious to tell people who are "flying the way they enjoy the game" to go elsewhere if their version of enjoyment is different from yours?
Never said go there if your enjoyment is different from mine. What I did say is play the way you enjoy.
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It's obvious to tell people who are "flying the way they enjoy the game" to go elsewhere if their version of enjoyment is different from yours?
Just as much as telling someone they dont fight the way you like and should change. :O
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There may be more at stake for how you choose to play the game. Since the game has multiple objectives, your statement is wholly invalid.
Not really steve, I think my statement encompasses most aspects of the game. I'm leary of all and wholly. Well since grade school anyway. Rarely does marking "all" on a test lead to a correct answer. :rofl :rofl
Again, It was an observation. I'm not putting anyone down here. Dispute my observation if you like. Prove to me I'm wrong. I honestly don't care about whether any one likes furballing over team strategy. Plenty of room for both in mho. No need to get defensive and try to play lawyer with sentence structure.
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I fly the game for air combat as it was designed by HT. Others can get what they can out of it.
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Not really steve, I think my statement encompasses most aspects of the game. I'm leary of all and wholly. Well since grade school anyway. Rarely does marking "all" on a test lead to a correct answer. :rofl :rofl
Again, It was an observation. I'm not putting anyone down here. Dispute my observation if you like. Prove to me I'm wrong. I honestly don't care about whether any one likes furballing over team strategy. Plenty of room for both in mho. No need to get defensive and try to play lawyer with sentence structure.
Allow me to point out something here. I see many rooks landing multiple kills continuously. Meanwhile while they are landing all these kills Rooks are losing bases left and right. So while everyone is getting high 5s they are losing the war. Basically they are not seeing the forest for the trees. They don't take down troops at even isolated vbases. So if you want to boast about your stats. Please do. However there is much more at stake and much more to the game.
Your statement cleary speaks that there is "much more at stake and much more to the game" than furballing. This my be right for you but wholly wrong for others. You've attempted to change your position in mid thread, you should be a politician.
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If you want to hug a tree then go ahead, but I prefer to play the game my own way and leave the "win the war" fanatics to do their own thing as well.
(http://i295.photobucket.com/albums/mm146/dkff49/best-funny-pictures_do-not-molest.jpg)
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Just last night I met a guy that just loves to HO and loves to BE HOed. Takes all sorts...
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Then go there. For those who want more stay in ma.
About a week ago I looked took a look and it was 700 in MA and 20 in DA. Not a strong point for your cause. Maybe you should check now. Bet it is close to the same ratio.
But again let me emphasize this one more time. Fly the way you enjoy the game. I do.
Here's what the evolutionary perspective of the typical AH player looks like from my eyes. (Assuming he stays around for years) Each stage can vary in time.
Learn to control the aircraft>>Learn to Aim>>Learn some SA>>Help Friends and Country Win the War>>Get Bored>>Learn ACM>>Pwn T3h Noobz
Notice how 'Learn ACM' occurs after the WTW mentality in the evolutionary process. You simply don't have many players who are very good pilots worrying about winning the fake war. You'll get it some day getback. (maybe)
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That's not how it was for me.
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That's not how it was for me.
I'm sure it's close.
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Grizz's post actually seems pretty accurate from my experience personally and what I've observed in others.
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I don't see the learn the ACM part anymore. What I see is arenas full of hordelings who simply have no concept of ACM. Three's literally hundreds of them in the LWA's.
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Here folks, let me make it easy for you. I was laughing thinking about how I would reply to such a post. It's somewhat of a 2 parter. One you could say yes we see the forest for the trees and choose to play the way we play. But yeah, you are correct in your observation. Or of course you could mix the two in a couple of ways or maybe more. Like I said play the way you enjoy. It's just an observation.
Also, Later I thought how would I post these in a more postive note. I wish I would have asked what does your country have to offer a new player? However, I'm done posting on the subject.
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I don't see the learn the ACM part anymore. What I see is arenas full of hordelings who simply have no concept of ACM. Three's literally hundreds of them in the LWA's.
...and why not? The game doesn't punish them for suiciding to accomplish their "mission". No need to put any effort into the game. :frown:
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...and why not? The game doesn't punish them for suiciding to accomplish their "mission". No need to put any effort into the game. :frown:
The punishment for this type of game play is boredom. It's not sustainable.
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I don't see the learn the ACM part anymore. What I see is arenas full of hordelings who simply have no concept of ACM. Three's literally hundreds of them in the LWA's.
Some days! :mad:
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For the record. I dont care how anyone plays. I dont care if they horde, mob, go off alone, GV, furball, mission their arses off. I couldn't care less if we lose or win every map that comes along. Actually I have far more important things on life to worry about. That and I aint paying nobody elses $$ every month so I figure I dont have the right to tell them how to play.
Some of this stuff I hear on the comms is ridiculous. Who cares how somebody else wants to play?
The only exception are the gamey crap that smells like 5 day old road kill, IE; Lancs flinging 1,000 lb bombs like stukas, PT boats upping/launching 40 times in a row, bombing and bailing...ect
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seems like this thread blew up in the poster face.
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seems like this thread blew up in the poster face.
I don't see that.
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I don't see that.
Because of all that trees? ;)
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Because of all that trees? ;)
:rofl
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Because of all that trees? ;)
OUCHY! Big hit. :lol
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The punishment for this type of game play is boredom. It's not sustainable.
Exactly. Unfortunately, the poor noobs are too myopic to see that (hearkening back to the forest/trees analogy). :D
Rich46yo...
Do you realize that you totally contradicted yourself in your last post??? Of course you don't care about how other people play. As long as it isn't in a way that YOU consider gamey. :eek:
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What has real impact on the game is teamwork and friends. They keep people coming back.
Working together for a common goal is a great thing.
On a personal level I've always admired people like Dredger, Ghi, Joker, and Drone (back in the day). Who figured out long before the rest of us that this game has more to offer than just a few kills. It doesn't surprise me that some of these folks move on to the FSO where they do what they enjoy the most on a massive scale.
Ahh, let me take these three lines one at a time.
The first line is paritally correct but your friends don't have to be in your squad or even fly for your country. In fact your friends don't even need to be someone you've heard of before. I've got friends on "the other side" just as I do on the Bish side and have met new friends in discussions after our fights. Regardless of that, they are not what keeps me coming back. What keeps me coming back is hoping for that one white knuckled, sweaty palmed fight with an equally skilled opponent which are, unfortunately, becoming fewer and further between as the "teamwork" mentality has overcome the MAs.
As to the second line, yes it is at times but if that goal doesn't involve a fight then it's largly a waste of time IMO. Not that I've never snuck a base or that I won't do it again but given the choice I'd rather be improving my ACM or putting a plane I'm less familiar with through it's paces.
Now line three; long before who exactly? Back in '96 I was CO of a sixty person squad in AW. We worked together as a team. We had a bomber wing and two fighter wings plus a command wing. We'd simultaneously shut down the Spit factory, all the strats, our target field and those immediately around it. We didn't fly NOE. We just went for it. As CO I was getting comms from remote flights scattered all across the map assesing the situation and coordinating timing. That was fun at the time. None of todays squads fly missions like that with mutiple objectives. Smash and grab hoard play is the order of the day. Sad really.
So, since I know you, you probably know I'm a loner. I've been there done that as far as squad play and teamwork. I prefer to fly alone, beholding to no one. I don't want to be obligated to do this or that or fly here or there or clear this guy or that guy. This is a game I play to relax and have fun and when I log on I'll do that however I please. Sure it's fun to wing up with someone now and then or assist in a base take, etc. but again, I don't have any desire to feel obligated to do that, thank you very much.
So, play however you want to but you may want to reasses who's not seeing the forest for the trees.
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:lol :lol Getback, you so ka-razy :lol :lol
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I'm sure it's close.
Win the war was last and acm is a continuous process. I never got bored. If I ever told you some of the things I have done you would gasp. I learned alot about acms in just the last 3 to 4 camps and I've been playing for 12+ years. If you're getting bored then you are not enjoying all aspects of the game. However, in line with what you like to do. I saw Rob land kills in a p51, 109, p38, and a couple of other different planes all in the same night. I said Rob, you fly them all don't you. He said yeah I would get bored if I flew the same plane all the time. I thought that was pretty cool.
Here was the reason for my post. I flew with the Rooks for the last couple of days as Ntrpd. Heck I even posted a saved mission and it said the mission planner was Getback. :rofl :rofl :rofl So much for being incognito. I just wanted to see what it was like to fly Rooks. I didn't see any missions launched. I would see small groups trying to take a base but it is really hard with just 4 or 5 guys. Heck all you need is just one plane to up and take care of that. Never saw much in the way of team work. On the plus side I did see the rooks respond to defense really fast and effective. Wasn't like that when I was a rook before. You actually give check 6s :rofl :rofl :rofl On the subject of missions I did see where rooks took 199 as I was logging. Another kind of peculiar thing happened too. When I suggested a mission one Rook Pm'd me to join him in a small mission to help take 131. I don't know why but it seemed that the word mission is a bad word and shouldn't be spoken on rook country channel.
Okay that was kind of long winded. The reason for post in short was that I saw Rooks losing bases left and right and then take 5 or 6 hours to get a base back (except for 164, nice). I just wanted the Rooks to look at things from a different perspective since I thought I might go Rooks permanently at the time. No malice was intended. I also realized that yeah I'm going to get zinged here. But maybe it would be worth it or maybe not. Everyone who posts is subject to ridicule of some sort. Some just lie in wait.
I was really disappointed that I didn't get to go on a mission with Dredger. I was looking forward to that.
I will say while I was there I helped Shawk and crew take a port and Target take a field. I tried to help JB21 but it was too late for success. I flew and gv'd as best I could and actually had quite a few kills for the short time I was there. At 98 I was dodging puffy ack, cv planes, pt boats, and HO's (they tried to HO me twice in one flight) trying to save that base. So were others. We saved it!
So thanks again for having me and I wish you all well. Yes I know I was suppose to go on Sabbatical and I've done that. Deleted my account tonight.
BTW I think Lusche post about the trees was just humor. Nothing significant there but still pretty darn funny.
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Learn to control the aircraft>>Learn to Aim>>Learn some SA>>Help Friends and Country Win the War>>Get Bored>>Learn ACM>>Pwn T3h Noobz[/b]
I seem to have skipped steps 2 and 4. I regret skipping the former, the latter, not so much.
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I seemed to have been absent the day step 2 was taught as well. I will say that since I left my old "base-take" squad and made my own small squad of 5 guys whom I have flown with since my 2 week trial, dropped 99% of basetaking ideas and become a "furballer" (terrible by the way) my enjoyment of this game has close to tripled. I still get my tail handed to me alot, but I enjoy it alot more.
:salute
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I don't care if we (rooks) win any bases.I just don't. I pay 14.95 a month to shoot down as many bad guys I can before they get me. That's all I want to do right now, and I'm having fun doing it. If ya think about it, what do you get win you win the war? Another map that looks just like the one you've been playing on day in and day out for weeks. Bombing hangers and shooting at buildings are not a challenge to me anymore. They pretty much just sit there ...ya know? :lol I'd much rather fight something that will shoot me down if I don't make a slick move or good shot.
So while you "war winners" are shooting at buildings, hangers and sheep, I'm honing my skills on moving targets and waiting just outside the dar ring for you to come bumbling in so I can collect your scalp too. :D
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I would see small groups trying to take a base but it is really hard with just 4 or 5 guys. Heck all you need is just one plane to up and take care of that.
Back when we had the AvA wars going on, that's usually all it took. And back then, the field captures were set to 20, 30, 40, I think even 50 troops at one point, plus hardened buildings, to capture the base to prevent off-hours milking.
As long as the guys doing it aren't completely incompetent (or something catastrophic happens), it's usually not very hard to capture a base with 4 or 5 guys. 3 110's and a goon is more than enough.
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The first line is paritally correct but your friends don't have to be in your squad or even fly for your country. In fact your friends don't even need to be someone you've heard of before. I've got friends on "the other side" just as I do on the Bish side and have met new friends in discussions after our fights. Regardless of that, they are not what keeps me coming back. What keeps me coming back is hoping for that one white knuckled, sweaty palmed fight with an equally skilled opponent which are, unfortunately, becoming fewer and further between as the "teamwork" mentality has overcome the MAs.
These two points - we're all friends, and we're here to test ourselves in virtual combat - are key. Baldeagle's paragraph (see above) should be pasted to the top of everyone's monitor.
- oldman
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Ahh, let me take these three lines one at a time.
The first line is partially correct but your friends don't have to be in your squad or even fly for your country. In fact your friends don't even need to be someone you've heard of before. I've got friends on "the other side" just as I do on the Bish side and have met new friends in discussions after our fights. Regardless of that, they are not what keeps me coming back. What keeps me coming back is hoping for that one white knuckled, sweaty palmed fight with an equally skilled opponent which are, unfortunately, becoming fewer and further between as the "teamwork" mentality has overcome the MAs.
As to the second line, yes it is at times but if that goal doesn't involve a fight then it's largely a waste of time IMO. Not that I've never snuck a base or that I won't do it again but given the choice I'd rather be improving my ACM or putting a plane I'm less familiar with through it's paces.
Now line three; long before who exactly? Back in '96 I was CO of a sixty person squad in AW. We worked together as a team. We had a bomber wing and two fighter wings plus a command wing. We'd simultaneously shut down the Spit factory, all the strats, our target field and those immediately around it. We didn't fly NOE. We just went for it. As CO I was getting comms from remote flights scattered all across the map assesing the situation and coordinating timing. That was fun at the time. None of today's squads fly missions like that with multiple objectives. Smash and grab hoard play is the order of the day. Sad really.
So, since I know you, you probably know I'm a loner. I've been there done that as far as squad play and teamwork. I prefer to fly alone, beholding to no one. I don't want to be obligated to do this or that or fly here or there or clear this guy or that guy. This is a game I play to relax and have fun and when I log on I'll do that however I please. Sure it's fun to wing up with someone now and then or assist in a base take, etc. but again, I don't have any desire to feel obligated to do that, thank you very much.
So, play however you want to but you may want to reasses who's not seeing the forest for the trees.
Last time I will reply to this thread. I'm gone from the game.
In all three statements you are splitting hairs. It just isn't worth a deep analysis.
However, as far as reassessing anything, I continually analyze what I say and think of ways I could have said it better or if my thinking was even correct. I stand by my opinion here and my observation until proved otherwise. So far no one has been able to do that. I find it ironic that in so many words they have upheld my observations while condemning me.
I lone wolf it a bunch too. That is one of the complaints RT had about me. In fact, and there is no way for any one to know it, I will head to DAR bars that indicate 4 or 5 cons. Just to see what they are made of. Another observation is all my fights in recent times while lone wolfing involved bases being attacked either from my country or from another country. Either way I went there to collect scalps. So while you are out there saying I don't want to do base captures you benefit from the those who do. In my 6 or 7 year tenure in AH I only have about 4 or 5 fights that did not involve base capture. Only 2 I can truly remember. I enjoy the game in it's entirety. Base captures being part of it. Strategy in all aspects being another part. I refuse to dull my experience by doing just one thing.
If you read my previous post you will understand where I was coming from when I posted. It isn't totally about this vs. that. Hopefully I have given you food for thought. (I now wonder how folks are going to try to turn this axiom on me)
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fluff'n tree Huggers, and fluff'n arsonist forest fire starters. Both suck :rolleyes:
Capture a base if you can and want to. Keep the fight alive and discourage hanger kills if its all good. If other people are ruining it for you go play tetris. blah blah blah blah blah blah blah. Going back to the game to fight. I'm getting tiredhead reading this crap. In fact, there ought to be a section that these issues can be moved to when posted called "Crappola Postolas".
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Here was the reason for my post. I flew with the Rooks for the last couple of days as Ntrpd. Heck I even posted a saved mission and it said the mission planner was Getback. :rofl :rofl :rofl So much for being incognito. I just wanted to see what it was like to fly Rooks. I didn't see any missions launched. I would see small groups trying to take a base but it is really hard with just 4 or 5 guys. Heck all you need is just one plane to up and take care of that. Never saw much in the way of team work. On the plus side I did see the rooks respond to defense really fast and effective. Wasn't like that when I was a rook before. You actually give check 6s :rofl :rofl :rofl On the subject of missions I did see where rooks took 199 as I was logging. Another kind of peculiar thing happened too. When I suggested a mission one Rook Pm'd me to join him in a small mission to help take 131. I don't know why but it seemed that the word mission is a bad word and shouldn't be spoken on rook country channel.
Okay that was kind of long winded. The reason for post in short was that I saw Rooks losing bases left and right and then take 5 or 6 hours to get a base back (except for 164, nice). I just wanted the Rooks to look at things from a different perspective since I thought I might go Rooks permanently at the time. No malice was intended. I also realized that yeah I'm going to get zinged here. But maybe it would be worth it or maybe not. Everyone who posts is subject to ridicule of some sort. Some just lie in wait.
I was really disappointed that I didn't get to go on a mission with Dredger. I was looking forward to that.
I will say while I was there I helped Shawk and crew take a port and Target take a field. I tried to help JB21 but it was too late for success. I flew and gv'd as best I could and actually had quite a few kills for the short time I was there. At 98 I was dodging puffy ack, cv planes, pt boats, and HO's (they tried to HO me twice in one flight) trying to save that base. So were others. We saved it!
Such a different outlook on the game than me. Seriously, I never know what bases are being captured, never run troops for my country, never take ord, never give wtg's when a base is captured, etc. All I care about is finding an enemy and shooting him with a tater. Sound selfish? At the same time, I'm always trying to give check 6's to allies, clearing allies who need help, setting allies up for nice easy shots, staying out of allies isolated 1v1s, etc. It's all in the eye of the beholder.
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Here's what the evolutionary perspective of the typical AH player looks like from my eyes. (Assuming he stays around for years) Each stage can vary in time.
Learn to control the aircraft>>Learn to Aim>>Learn some SA>>Help Friends and Country Win the War>>Get Bored>>Learn ACM>>Pwn T3h Noobz
Notice how 'Learn ACM' occurs after the WTW mentality in the evolutionary process. You simply don't have many players who are very good pilots worrying about winning the fake war. You'll get it some day getback. (maybe)
That was my evolutionary path, tho I'm still working on the last part
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I was really disappointed that I didn't get to go on a mission with Dredger. I was looking forward to that.
Getback, when you come back look us up. Dredger is busy now with real life things but is on occasionally. When you come back send me a PM and ill look for you when hes on. You could always look us up for FSO as well. Its an open invite.
Hope to see you back soon
Mbailey
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Such a different outlook on the game than me. Seriously, I never know what bases are being captured, never run troops for my country, never take ord,
I love air-to-air, but bombing is something I try to keep in my repertoire. For one thing, if you pork ords it's a great way to keep an air-to-air fight going, and it's also fun to put bomb the cockroaches that spawn near your base. ;)
I'm also assigned a fighter bomber, dive bomber, or even a level bomber from time to time in FSO.
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I'm DONE with these forums the useless mindless chatter is like ch200 times 10 anytime anyone puts a chesive thought together that person gets ridiculed for his thoughts maybe someday you dopes will grow up and realize the world never mind AH does not revolve around you.
I'm sure someone will have something to say about this post knock yourselves out i will no longer read or be involved in it.
I just realized why in the first 5 yrs of playing this game i never came here.
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(Difficult to control bbs with horde like can be done in MA's :D)
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(Difficult to control bbs with horde like can be done in MA's :D)
Oh yeah, See the 30 guys chastising me.
PS. Violated my no post rule.
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maybe someday you dopes will grow up and realize the world never mind AH does not revolve around you.
LOL...Says Mr
I'm the J0KER of the Bish Jokers Jokers,
Name ring a bell now?
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I generally fly alone. I usually look for base getting whacked and head there. It's a rare occurrence when I find myself flying with a large group. If I can find a 1v1 or even 2v1, I'm usually content.
That said, I have no issues with taking bases. I have no issues with organizing missions (I never join them though). I have no issues with so called. "strategic" game play too a point.
10 to 15 guys trying to take a base is usually fun and often unsuccessful. Nonetheless, it does breed some good fights.
Where it breaks down is when the number of attackers climbs into the 30s, sometimes 40s. Few will rise to defend as they have no chance. Why bother? So, this clearly doesn't promote combat. Thus, a base is captured without much difficulty.
We also know that the bulk of these massive gangs of pilots are low level skilled players. They recognize that they can't defend themselves individually. Even small groups of 3 or 4 are virtually helpless against a top level pilot. So, their instinct is to mob up, which provides some level of relative safety and they will probably get a chance to do some shooting and bombing before they get whacked. If they are real lucky, they might get to shoot some planes on the runway. This isn't hard to understand.
Training these folks in the finer skills of ACM, gunnery and SA takes time. Trainers and many others will set aside the time for these players. Reality shows that it also takes time to learn these skills. Therein is the root of the problem. A significant percentage of the players have no interest in committing the required time to improve enough to be get to a point where they don't need the protection of numbers. They take the path of least resistance and effort.
A net result is that they lose interest. That type of game play is single dimensional and boring. Still, many are unwilling to apply the required effort to build skills. So, they cancel their account and move onto another game where they will repeat the entire process. I'm sure that this cycle accounts for the bulk of player turnover. A smaller percentage will make the effort. They will improve and begin to enjoy the air to air aspect of the game. Most will never be great pilots, but they are always striving. Those constitute the bulk of the game's long time veterans. Yet, they are still in the minority.
Grizz provides a reasonably valid evolutionary path (although I would push out SA nearer ACM):
Learn to control the aircraft>>Learn to Aim>>Learn some SA>>Help Friends and Country Win the War>>Get Bored>>Learn ACM>>Pwn T3h Noobz
What it doesn't show is how many never get past Win the War or Get Bored before Natural Selection overcomes them.
Aces High is little more than a microcosm of our society. In particular, young males. I see it all the time. If any task becomes too difficult, change tasks. That's much easier than overcoming the difficult. Most will take the easy way. Our culture promotes it....
Therefore, I believe that the problems within the game are systemic of society and our culture as a whole. HTC can take a path that makes tasks more difficult. This would probably increase player turnover rate. If it becomes harder to do; well, they'll go find something easier to waste their time with. Some increase in difficulty is certainly warranted, but is there another solution?
That leads me to this: Game play is really up to the players. Our veterans need to encourage learning new skills. Simply lambasting them will accomplish nothing. They will resist simply because they're are being pushed. Don't push, encourage. Take a noob to the MA, wing with him. Show him how to have fun without a mob. Protect him, don't concentrate on getting kills, concentrate on keeping the noob alive so he can learn without being discouraged. Take him to the TA. Practice basic BFM and ACM. Organize fights in the DA with players of comparable skills. Mentor. Praise good effort (results are secondary and will eventually come). Don't belittle them if they don't grasp a concept. No one gets good at ACM without much failure first.
COs of big squads: Set up routine training. Utilize the Trainer Corps. Encourage your guys to learn (some won't, but try anyway). Let's do what we can to change the culture, and with it change the game's dynamic, even if only a little. There's too many fat, lazy kids and adults these days. Let's see if we can work some of the fat and lazy out of the game. I think it can be better than it is without HTC's intervention.
My regards,
Widewing
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LOL...Says Mr
I was going to say something Murdr but I figured let him just go away.
Most guys who are good at this game know its just a silly game that we play in our Jam Jams but this guy really thinks he's something. :rofl
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Learn to control the aircraft>>Learn to Aim>>Learn some SA>>Help Friends and Country Win the War>>Get Bored>>Learn ACM>>Pwn T3h Noobz
The is not how it was for me.
Learn the aircraft, Learn SA, Learn ACM (Continuously), Learn war strategy, Help your country in any manner possible, and then put it all together and have fun.
I never ever got bored. Mad, irate, ticked yes. Never bored.
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Allow me to point out something here. I see many rooks landing multiple kills continuously. Meanwhile while they are landing all these kills Rooks are losing bases left and right. So while everyone is getting high 5s they are losing the war. Basically they are not seeing the forest for the trees.
They really have no impact on overall game play since the enemy can up another cartoon plane.
Came across a related quote...
He defends no base, attacks no base for no other purpose than to furball/vultch
And it makes no difference what his reasons are. If he is uping from a base and killing people, he is having an influence on the fight and field defense. If he is killing people at a field, he is influencing a base attack.
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Gotta remove yourself from the "win the war mentality".I have to say in doing so myself has given me a breath of fresh air. The "teamwork" and camaraderie people share when they take on the task of winning the war is great when things are working their way by bases being taken and maps reset. What happens when the noob that drives the goon drops troops over the Field? The mission gets busted and what happens when another chess piece decides to horde back their bases denying the reset?...things get ugly, you start blaming eachother for not porking bases, that spies rule the skies and so on.Taking another approach to the game by learning ACM and trying to hold your own against numbers does provide you with the outlook that you blame yourself for any mistakes. Even if you want to believe that the one friendly didn't check your 6 or you got HOd..The truth is you put yourself in that position and its up to you to learn from it.
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I wish I would have asked what does your country have to offer a new player? However, I'm done posting on the subject.
There are no countries....... just chess pieces so there can be three groups pto fight eachother. That was done figuring that no one would get attached to a chess piece..... oh well.
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Came across a related quote...
And it makes no difference what his reasons are. If he is uping from a base and killing people, he is having an influence on the fight and field defense. If he is killing people at a field, he is influencing a base attack.
Murdr, thanks for the quote from Hitech. I am 100% agreement with what that statement and stand corrected. I studied and studied what I said and could not come up with a rebuttal. I will tell that I had two thoughts at the same time and they both tried to fit into one sentence. Well that never works. However, read what Hitech said. It relates to base attacks. That my wiley adversary supports everything I and others have said. Base attacks btw generally involve captures, not always for sure. Since we have brought Hitech into the conversation, didn't he set the game up for winning the war and base captures. Isn't that part of the overall strategy. Don't furballers etc feed off the folks that attempt captures?! I think that was clever of Hitech to do so.
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Gotta remove yourself from the "win the war mentality".I have to say in doing so myself has given me a breath of fresh air. The "teamwork" and camaraderie people share when they take on the task of winning the war is great when things are working their way by bases being taken and maps reset. What happens when the noob that drives the goon drops troops over the Field? The mission gets busted and what happens when another chess piece decides to horde back their bases denying the reset?...things get ugly, you start blaming eachother for not porking bases, that spies rule the skies and so on.Taking another approach to the game by learning ACM and trying to hold your own against numbers does provide you with the outlook that you blame yourself for any mistakes. Even if you want to believe that the one friendly didn't check your 6 or you got HOd..The truth is you put yourself in that position and its up to you to learn from it.
Should Hitech remove himself from the "win the war mentallity"? He set the game up.
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Dunno...my evolutionary path was:
discover a game that let me pretend to dogfight like i always dreamed
>read every manual/bbs site
>fly a spit because growing up in England made me wish to
>die a thousand times
>join a squad because they were nice to me and helped me
>die a thousand more times
>discover my frame rate was about 10
>save up money and build a good computer
>get alot better overnight because i can now see tracers and aim better
>get very good at 1v1
>get very good at 1v2
>follow AW thru all its dying phases
>get kind of bored of "furballing" all the time
>watch all the original squad guys move on to other games
>became defacto C.O. and rebuilt the squad
>almost quit
>move to AH and discover VOX
>start having a lot more fun because of the social interactions/missions
>still play because of the social interaction while getting to kill things in the setting of ww2
Realize that in order to enjoy missions, landgrabbing etc you have to be willing to fly alot of hours...i think part of what makes guys move towards ACM/furballing at the tail end (which confuses me...i mean why not get good at the beginning??? lot of resources/trainers to help you) of a career is that time constraints/boredom become more of a factor. If your not going to fly at least an hour to two hours at a time why would you do anything but look for quick fights? I remember in the beginning I was logging 6 hour nights...going home over lunch to play....having it on my computer at work and gunning with the sound off (joystick would have been to obvious)...now im lucky to log on 3-4 nights a week
Honestly there is something illogical about not trying to be the best fiter you can be from the getgo...I understand that we all take different paths....but anything competitive I have done in life (tennis, soccer, chess etc)I tried to be as good as I could could before I joined a club or entered comeptition...but if the other pathway is what most of you took I accept it at face value..
Its the same forest...we just like different trees...
guys who like controlling cv's/taking bases/sneaking bases/winning wars are probably more strategically minded and see those accomplishments as successess,don't need individual recognition to have fun....
guys who prefer "furballing"/acm probably have more time limitations, prefer more individual combat experiences, get more satisfaction from shooting someone down then seeing a base change hands,prefer individual accolade over group accolade...
The only thing i don't like is the absolute negativity that is permitted/expressed towards folks who prefer one aspect of the game over the other. It goes both ways i may add...look at Batfink's current post...
Also the bad news for the "pure" ACM is that they are usually one foot out the door...older BK's, older muppets, Guppy and CO etc are all examples of folks who have slowly left the game....and it is a shame...unless they become trainers/special events folks etc and have another way to channel their love for the game they just disappear... :salute
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Also the bad news for the "pure" ACM is that they are usually one foot out the door...older BK's, older muppets, Guppy and CO etc are all examples of folks who have slowly left the game....and it is a shame...unless they become trainers/special events folks etc and have another way to channel their love for the game they just disappear... :salute
Yea why have they left the game? I don't think it was because of the lack of "horde".
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Yea why have they left the game? I don't think it was because of the lack of "horde".
I think every thing has its lifetime...im personally shocked that I'm still here 12 years later...there are many other games: Everquest, Tribes, Poker, etc that I HAVE left during this period of time...
I dont know how old you are but I am 39...I was 27 when i started...I now have four kids and my oldest is 13 yo...travel sports, vacations, work, meetings, investments, the wife etc. have slowly eaten away at my time AND I am now wishing to spend more time with my kids before they are gone as well. Heck I'm 40 next month...my own life could use a little more attention...so my timeplaying AH is steadily decreasing...
I'll hazard a guess that some of these folks began to choose personal time over game time and finally arrived at a point where the satisfaction was more doing other things...I'm pretty sure if I didnt enjoy the guys or have them...then dogfiting would not be enough to hold me here...nor would basetaking hold me here...its the fellahs in my squad that keep me logging in...without that interaction why not have all the planes be AI?
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I think every thing has its lifetime...im personally shocked that I'm still here 12 years later...there are many other games: Everquest, Tribes, Poker, etc that I HAVE left during this period of time...
I dont know how old you are but I am 39...I was 27 when i started...I now have four kids and my oldest is 13 yo...travel sports, vacations, work, meetings, investments, the wife etc. have slowly eaten away at my time AND I am now wishing to spend more time with my kids before they are gone as well. Heck I'm 40 next month...my own life could use a little more attention...so my timeplaying AH is steadily decreasing...
I'll hazard a guess that some of these folks began to choose personal time over game time and finally arrived at a point where the satisfaction was more doing other things...I'm pretty sure if I didnt enjoy the guys or have them...then dogfiting would not be enough to hold me here...nor would basetaking hold me here...its the fellahs in my squad that keep me logging in...without that interaction why not have all the planes be AI?
Orrr they became sick of hordes avoiding each other not finding quality game play.
Just for the record falc.. I'm 39 also. Started when AW was on aohel.
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Since we have brought Hitech into the conversation, didn't he set the game up for winning the war and base captures. Isn't that part of the overall strategy. Don't furballers etc feed off the folks that attempt captures?! I think that was clever of Hitech to do so.
Well, if you check around a little bit, you will find posts wherein HT states that the game is about the fight. All the other aspects of the game...captures, bombing strat, etc., are there simply to give people something to fight about. Unfortunately, what passes for strategy in AH these days is usually either outnumber the crap of of them, sneak up on them and/or destroy their ability to fight. In point of fact, all of those "strategies" run counter to what HT says the game is supposed to be about.
It isn't that those things need to be removed from the game. The problem lies in the fact that the game is "out of balance". Far too many use those "strategies" far too often. If these "strategies" were food...AH would be heading for a coronary!!
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Should Hitech remove himself from the "win the war mentallity"? He set the game up.
Some food for thought here Getback...
The Quote HiTech was replying to...
Some play the game to fulfill the actual parameters that it was designed for, which is to overcome and conquer bases, and eventually the country, thus winning the war/game.
HiTechs reply...
This is a false assumption.
The game was designed to have fun at different types of combat. Conquering bases is just a means to promote combat and hence fun. But by no means is it more or less justified than going out and just mixing it up.
HiTech
What is really sad is just how many players go out of their way to avoid combat. And as you see from the above quote, the game was designed around combat.
There is no "winning the war". You just get a new map and the war continues.
There is "winning a fight" though.
(And isn't there an even better quote from Doug about this subject? I'm sure Murdr will have it)
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I'm DONE with these forums the useless mindless chatter is like ch200 times 10 anytime anyone puts a chesive thought together that person gets ridiculed for his thoughts maybe someday you dopes will grow up and realize the world never mind AH does not revolve around you.
I'm sure someone will have something to say about this post knock yourselves out i will no longer read or be involved in it.
I just realized why in the first 5 yrs of playing this game i never came here.
So when someone posts something that isn't a cohesive argument, contradicts itself multiple times and is just silly, we aren't supposed to comment on that?
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What is really sad is just how many players go out of their way to avoid combat. And as you see from the above quote, the game was designed around combat.
There is no "winning the war". You just get a new map and the war continues.
There is "winning a fight" though.
(And isn't there an even better quote from Doug about this subject? I'm sure Murdr will have it)
I see this typed a lot Lute...but I doubt anybody wants to avoid "combat". They are probably trying to avoid "failure". I would argue that "furballers" who fly high and in fw's or ponies in a group are "trying to avoid combat" as well using your definition...i doubt they would see themselves in that light.
As for basetaker's, Any small group should be able to hold a a base as long as hangers stay up...a goon at any alt is a sitting target...if the goal of a "strategic" player is too capture a field then they do what they see as the most expedient/high likelihood of success means to do it. I would say that the same is true of a "ACM guy" who gets his value from killing a lot of folks and returning safely.
You are suggesting that if HTC did away with basetaking (I would like this personally) and instead had strat targets that meant something instead of being score pads then over half the current population would quit...
There were hordes in AW BEFORE you could ever take a base...I guess human nature is to optimize your chance for success as you define it for yourself....I remember in AW having to up capped fields because there were only 2 to choose from...all others were taken during the day by 2-3 guys. It sucked.
AND griefing others is unfortunately human nature too...remember the aircraft factories :D
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...snip...
A net result is that they lose interest....Still, many are unwilling to apply the required effort to build skills. So, they cancel their account and move onto another game where they will repeat the entire process.... A smaller percentage will make the effort. They will improve and begin to enjoy the air to air aspect of the game. Most will never be great pilots, but they are always striving. Those constitute the bulk of the game's long time veterans. Yet, they are still in the minority.
Grizz provides a reasonably valid evolutionary path (although I would push out SA nearer ACM):
Learn to control the aircraft>>Learn to Aim>>Learn some SA>>Help Friends and Country Win the War>>Get Bored>>Learn ACM>>Pwn T3h Noobz
...snip...
My regards,
Widewing
Interesting thoughts, Widewing, but a couple concerns.
First, not everyone who backs away from intensive work on ACM is a kid who'd rather switch games than invest effort. I think there a quite a number of us who know we would benefit from disciplined programs of combat training, and who'd love to get better at the game...but who balk at the cost/benefit calculation.
For me, the game has to stay FUN. It's my relaxation...and I refuse to let it feel like work. If I decide the cost of improvement is more than its worth to me, if I can't get better WHILE I'm having fun, then I'll let the improvement pass. That doesn't make me a casualty of cultural decay: It just means my dedication to acheivement doesnt extend to AH skill metrics.
<S>
Simaril
Dave
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I see this typed a lot Lute...but I doubt anybody wants to avoid "combat". They are probably trying to avoid "failure". I would argue that "furballers" who fly high and in fw's or ponies in a group are "trying to avoid combat" as well using your definition...i doubt they would see themselves in that light.
As for basetaker's, Any small group should be able to hold a a base as long as hangers stay up...a goon at any alt is a sitting target...if the goal of a "strategic" player is too capture a field then they do what they see as the most expedient/high likelihood of success means to do it. I would say that the same is true of a "ACM guy" who gets his value from killing a lot of folks and returning safely.
You are suggesting that if HTC did away with basetaking (I would like this personally) and instead had strat targets that meant something instead of being score pads then over half the current population would quit...
There were hordes in AW BEFORE you could ever take a base...I guess human nature is to optimize your chance for success as you define it for yourself....I remember in AW having to up capped fields because there were only 2 to choose from...all others were taken during the day by 2-3 guys. It sucked.
AND griefing others is unfortunately human nature too...remember the aircraft factories :D
I can believe that part, at least. That mindset doesn't lead to any sort of advancement, though
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Interesting thoughts, Widewing, but a couple concerns.
First, not everyone who backs away from intensive work on ACM is a kid who'd rather switch games than invest effort. I think there a quite a number of us who know we would benefit from disciplined programs of combat training, and who'd love to get better at the game...but who balk at the cost/benefit calculation.
For me, the game has to stay FUN. It's my relaxation...and I refuse to let it feel like work. If I decide the cost of improvement is more than its worth to me, if I can't get better WHILE I'm having fun, then I'll let the improvement pass. That doesn't make me a casualty of cultural decay: It just means my dedication to acheivement doesnt extend to AH skill metrics.
<S>
Simaril
Dave
Outstanding post :aok
Every hour spent in AH is an hour I must deduct from something else...it is great to be volunteer staff at anything you like...some of us prefer to do it outside of AH...church, coaching, PTA, etc., parenting, painting etc.
The other point he misses is that MANY of these self appointed ACM guys are no better then the guys who don't try to excel at it. They point at others and say they don't know ACM and they are no better. I have been called out to the DA many times....most recently by a BK who said he was DFC and was going to spank me because i had dared to insult widewing. He said he would post the films in the O'Club so others could laugh at me. He lost and it really wasn't that close...the films suprisingly haven't been posted....and I hadn't been to the DA to duel since Creton left... :rolleyes:
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The game is about combat. Games are something you can play with, interact. It's not interaction if the pixel airbase you're pixel-warring against doesn't offer any suspense, doesn't put up a fight. A fight doesn't have to be ACM. Much like in reality you can wage a war without firing bullets, e.g. with economics (markets), with demographics (birthrate zerg rush), ideology (religion, etc), so in the game you can "play" combat with tanks or planes or strategy, mass dropping troops or whatever. But there's always an interaction versus some opposition. That opposition has to have some means to put up against yours, that's what competition is. If there's no opposition to interact with and compete against, the game isn't combat, it's a one sided monologue and boring. You are sitting at your desk not taking any risks, your pixel victories are shallow and meaningless, it's a waste of time even for a pixel leisure.
Once again! The rant on real estate oriented squads isn't that they tend towards the strategic end of the combat spectrum (I get a kick out of it myself, like Widewing and others say), it's that they often deny any combat, any interactivity, any game. That's fine in real war. This isn't a real war. The fight here is the value, not just who has the last capture. Because these captures are just pixels, there is no finality as real life has. Every wednesday the LW arena resets. Everytime the "war" is won in an arena, it resets. Back to square one! Ad infinitum, or until HTC closes down. The only real undeniable victory is a victory that allowed for and defeated every single attempt the enemy can make. Anything else is a fluke.
Merely hitting someone who doesn't know you're there is nothing to brag about. You don't brag or feel pride in winning against a weaker opponent, e.g. women, kids, cripples. Sports and war of all time have always been about overcoming adversity. David and Goliath for example. Flattening a base before 2 whirbles and 1 clueless dweeblet can roll an La7 isn't "adversity". It's Goliath rigging David's meager little sling and stones beforehand and stomping him come show time, and bragging about it. All the "ACM guys" are saying is to setup some real fights with actual combat, not some cheap land grab devoid of it.
Widewing's post nailed it. NOTICE the part where he accounts for the fun and value of PROPER strategic gameplay. Strategy and Tactics go hand in hand. The "ACM guys" is a strawman. We're (or I anyway) not arguing that big/strat oriented squads are evil. Just pointing out how they've watered down proper combat.
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Interesting thoughts, Widewing, but a couple concerns.
First, not everyone who backs away from intensive work on ACM is a kid who'd rather switch games than invest effort. I think there a quite a number of us who know we would benefit from disciplined programs of combat training, and who'd love to get better at the game...but who balk at the cost/benefit calculation.
For me, the game has to stay FUN. It's my relaxation...and I refuse to let it feel like work. If I decide the cost of improvement is more than its worth to me, if I can't get better WHILE I'm having fun, then I'll let the improvement pass. That doesn't make me a casualty of cultural decay: It just means my dedication to acheivement doesnt extend to AH skill metrics.
<S>
Simaril
Dave
You would have more fun if you had more ACM tools in your pocket. Less means to combat means less combat, less chances of being able to jump into any given furball (for its own sake or to win a base), less time surviving and having fun while surviving, less of everything that's fun. ACM isn't some starchy formal un-fun dogma, and it's not black magic either. It's more marbles in your bag, it's extra dimensions of freedom that improves the amount of fun you can have, the same way extra pieces and rules bring Chess above the level of Checkers and TicTacToe. The DA isn't the be-all and end-all of air combat. Yes it is TicTacToe compared to the MA environment. It's not what "us furball guys" are arguing for, but those micro-level ACM elements are what you use to pave the way to macro-level success. Denying this is a mistake.
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The DA isn't the be-all and end-all of air combat. Yes it is TicTacToe compared to the MA environment. It's not what "us furball guys" are arguing for, but those micro-level ACM elements are what you use to pave the way to macro-level success. Denying this is a mistake.
+100
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You would have more fun if you had more ACM tools in your pocket.
NO doubt about it.
But my point wasn't that ACM isn't good. Was trying to say that even though the ACM work would make me a better sim pilot, I find I just don't have the stomach for doing that work...and that doesn't make me an AH failure. It's OK for a game to be just a diversion, because it IS a game.
Don't misunderstand. I'm a fighter guy, through and through. Only occasionally go for bases, hardly ever up a bomber, and way to impatient for GV work. I do OK in a 1 on 1, but unless they're hopelessly bad I'm not going to come home after a 1v3 or 1v2....I just can't kill them fast enough, mostly because I can't master deflection shooting. (My ACM is far, far ahead of my gunnery...and I can't get my gunnery to improve despite lots of offline practice.)
I know some guys have a grand time working on moves, or going head to head with better pilots and learning through pain. I have a very hard time with those things, finding I just get frustrated and/or bored. I was just saying that that doesnt make me a failure at AH
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:aok moot
i'll add though, as a knight, being continually outnumbered is not fun.. I don't see the point in 30 players hording a base (noe or not), when those players totals outnumber the defending country by 2:1
I dont care if anyone thinks it's a fight, but 20 vs 5 is not a fight IMO... Oh, and those other 3 bases are flashing with no defenders also! we only have 10 ppl free... where to?
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You would have more fun if you had more ACM tools in your pocket. Less means to combat means less combat, less chances of being able to jump into any given furball (for its own sake or to win a base), less time surviving and having fun while surviving, less of everything that's fun. ACM isn't some starchy formal un-fun dogma, and it's not black magic either. It's more marbles in your bag, it's extra dimensions of freedom that improves the amount of fun you can have, the same way extra pieces and rules bring Chess above the level of Checkers and TicTacToe. The DA isn't the be-all and end-all of air combat. Yes it is TicTacToe compared to the MA environment. It's not what "us furball guys" are arguing for, but those micro-level ACM elements are what you use to pave the way to macro-level success. Denying this is a mistake.
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you too are missing the point...none of us are saying ACM is useless or wrong....get a grasp of that first
what we ARE saying is that there comes a point (that we can all choose for ourselves) where we have enough to have fun....where going thru formal training sessions and using our free time JUST to train becomes WORK and the amount of extra FUN gained from it is not enough to justify it...
Just like the DA....i think your tic-tac-toe analogy is actually quite good...there comes a point where it gets gamey...where guys who do it more then others have advantages that are beyond ACM and skill and guys who do it alot end up in very very long fights flapping/unflapping to creep around THAT much faster than the next guy...to some of us this isn't fun or skill...it doesn't confer THAT much advantage to carry over to the MA...where we like to play...
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That's not my point to you at all. Read the post before that. Clobbering inanimate objects so as to deny gameplay with the opposition in a multiplayer game is fun? You would call winning a game on even terms "gamey", but not biasing the odds to your favor before the game even started? It's gamey to take a null or negative handicap, but not to take a positive one so that you barely have to interact with the opposing players?
And I'm not one for formal training. It bores me out of my mind, and I cringe everytime I try to tutor someone and can hear their teeth grinding anytime I tell them the truth that practice makes perfect, aka DRILL. There are ways to drill in fun though, and dismissing this possibility off-hand is bogus.
I only go for very long fights because it's fun, not because I end up winning them. I have fun and I reckon the other guy has more fun that way too. Zapping cons left and right when I have to is fun too, but I reckon it's not so much fun to get popped by some weird 190 3 seconds in. But that's the price for hording, it's their choice. I'm arguing that the community ought to self-regulate to maximize fun. Denying that adding marbles to everyone's bag is gamey, denying that there needs to be a good balance of strat and tactics, or beating around the bush with strawmen and ad hominems is a mistake.
Strategy and tactics go hand in hand. Period.
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Thats the coolest part of this game. That actual ACM tactics, the kind actually used in the war, can also give you so much success in the game. Strategic/Tactical tactics and planning too. And even better you can match up airplanes that never actually fought in the war and see how they do against each other. There are so many fascinating angles to this game. Find your niche and then just have fun doing it.
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That's not my point to you at all. Read the post before that. Clobbering inanimate objects so as to deny gameplay with the opposition in a multiplayer game is fun? You would call winning a game on even terms gamey, but not biasing the odds to your favor before the game even started?
Yes!!! I WOULD completely agree with you...they are BOTH gamey!!! They are BOTH developed because of helping one be SUCCESSFUL in accomplishing their desired goal!!!
YOU choose not to pursue base taking and developing techniques to ensure this type of success....
OTHERS choose NOT to pursue advanced ACM to ensure their 1v1 success....
I choose to be relatively decent at BOTH
I don't see any one choice as worse than the other.....as long as they are all having fun...
The base takers have organizers who lead by example.....they appeal to a certain percent of the population
Some of the "ACM" guys do NOT seem capable of providing the same leadership except by critiquing the other style of play...that is not leadership....I would love to see the trainers and others post "fiter" missions...arrange furballs...in the MA....
Why does it seem to be the responisibility and fault of the base taking organizers/squads to promote a style of gameplay they don't find as satisfying????
I think the ACM proponents need to look within their own ranks for MA leadership to promote the style they wish to see developed....I, for one, am all for it and think it is needed...
Perhaps some of these guys also need to fly more in the evening and see what goes on ch 200...that hurts the ACM cause as much as anything...I think self-policing of the MA ACM community so they seem more approachable would help their cause as well...perhaps if someone they respect such as Widewing or Ghost pming them might be of benefit...
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Yes!!! I WOULD completely agree with you...they are BOTH gamey!!! They are BOTH developed because of helping one be SUCCESSFUL in accomplishing their desired goal!!!
YOU choose not to pursue base taking and developing techniques to ensure this type of success....
OTHERS choose NOT to pursue advanced ACM to ensure their 1v1 success....
I choose to be relatively decent at BOTH
I don't see any one choice as worse than the other.....as long as they are all having fun...
The base takers have organizers who lead by example.....they appeal to a certain percent of the population
The "ACM" guys do NOT seem capable of providing the same leadership except by critiquing the other style of play...I would love to see the trainers and others post "fiter" missions...arrange furballs...in the MA....
Why does it seem to be the responisibility and fault of the base taking organizers/squads to promote a style of gameplay they don't find as satisfying????
I think the ACM proponents need to look within their own ranks for leadership to promote the style they wish to see developed....I, for one, am all for it and think it is needed...
i dont presume to speak for moot, but rolling bases with a horde usually entails shooting buildings, with very few actual kills... the "acm" / "furball" guys like shooting other people.. shooting at buildings can be done offline, shooting at other people is what we're all paying 15$/mo for.. I think...
(just to be sure, I like shooting at a building now and then myself)
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When I read and say "gamey", I mean dodging the fun and challenge in the game by exploiting loopholes. That's the opposite of learning to get better at air combat, which is the whole point of AH.
be SUCCESSFUL in accomplishing their desired goal
is relativizing if it means anyone who lights up the fun centers in their brain is "right". It's correct if the goals aren't detrimental to air combat in AH.
I don't choose not to pursue base taking. You're flat out wrong there, I've done it a lot. I'd do it even more if there was any kind of opposition.. As it is, it's just too easy. So easy it's boring.
The ACM guys are plenty capable of providing leadership. Stang's done it, I've done it, the muppets have done it any number of times.. Fester would do it years ago by having a mission of nothing but Stukas fly above an enemy field feeding a lopsided fight and giving as sole orders "get directly above the field and then do what you want". We've gone to a base and killed the town in no time, then had a goon drop troops over the field.. The result? It sparked a great fight. Most recently, just three of us (Scotch, Grizz and I) took (IIRC) 239 so as to have a triangle of bish/rook/knight fields to get a three way fight going.
I don't understand how guys like you can honestly provoke trainers like this.. Do you REALLY think they don't have as good a handle on the game as you do? That they're incapable or unwilling to set up some proper air combat missions, furballs in the MA?
The responsibility the large squad leaders have is to not guide the largest followings in the game down the paths of least resistance, of more mediocre gameplay. This is more of the same relativizing for the sake of "whatever they find satisfying", at whatever cost to the game's resulting gameplay quality.
I think the ACM proponents need to look within their own ranks for leadership to promote the style they wish to see developed..
Guess what the DFC is.
And you've totaly ignored the fundamental argument that a game is based on interaction, a multi-team multiplayer game on competing, and that filling the gap in players' BFM and ACM skills is a positive.
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Where have I contradicted myself? Most of the time you folks add an additional word to make it go the way you want. Honestly I've been chastised the whole way by you trolls and I'm a little tired of it. I've made my point very clear and you guys don't like it. That's not my problem. You deal with it any way you like. You play any way you like. I've been way too considerate up until now. It's awful that a whole country thinks the word mission is a bad word and that you have to pm someone when you want to use it. I'm with Joker here I played for about 5 years and never posted and was a lot happier.
Oh and avoiding fights, Joker proved it. You guys scream no fights and he puts up a mission on country and you guys don't show. Dadsguns greets guys coming in at 25k and they run. Like Hitech says he uses base attacks to get the fight going. He has win the war built into the game. You know just like he mission editor. Do you need a step by step tutorial so you know where it's at?! Which btw seems to allow for many many people to join. My only goal was to get the Rooks to look at things a bit from a different perspective. But you know what you can't deal with even that. Instead you have the "kill the messenger attitude". Oh genius. Only been done since the Roman Empire days.
When I posted about the stats statement I was thinking of the gaminess of some of the scoring tactics and I was thinking of a second item at the same time. It got tangled together in one sentence . If you want to know about what it is pm me and I will give you the gory details. It certainly doesn't add to the fight in any way and I'm sure it wasn't intended. Yet folks have discovered the flaw and used it to their advantage. It avoids fights. Look at the top bombing stats. Tells a way different story than what you folks are saying here. I don't see you posting on that. It would be risky wouldn't it. I mean trolls watch this all the time. Just lurking.
And since the gloves are off here. Murdr, I sure all that you do is greatly appreciated. I like the hints and tips when you log in and I do love stats. I'm an accountant. Still I've often heard that people often point to their on-line friends as the reason they stay. Seen that I will bet a hundred times and when some one leaves that they admire, like Bipolar, they are saddened but understanding. I don't think I heard anyone say you know tip #3 kept me playing.
Finally I don't consider myself an Einstein but you folks make me look like a phreaking genius while you muddle in syntax.
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I don't understand how guys like you can honestly provoke trainers like this.. Do you REALLY think they don't have as good a handle on the game as you do? That they're incapable or unwilling to set up some proper air combat missions, furballs in the MA?
Again I am being accused of PROVOKING trainers??? The thread where i got into it with Widewing was because he entered a thread with a post that insulted my squad. I chose to defend...then i was accused of "insulting" him. Its nice to have two sets of rules.
I presented what is referred to in the real world as an O.F.I. (Opportunity For Improvement)...it occurred to me that your cause might be better advanced by duplicating the tactics of "mission" squads. i.e. running acm/fiter missions...maybe a trainer on each country etc...wasn't an insult...
In his post in this thread he again seems to suggest that Big Squad CO's dont train. FYI BoPs train every Thrusday for those interested and we have completed inter-squad dueling ladders which far outlived the AH dueling ladder. We have our own website which is pretty darn active. I realize he would rather we use the official trainers and of course there is no prohibiton in the squad for this. I will hazard a guess that seeing trainers insult their C.O. and squadmates might be more of a barrier.
The responsibility the large squad leaders have is to not guide the largest followings in the game down the paths of least resistance, of more mediocre gameplay. This is more of the same relativizing for the sake of "whatever they find satisfying", at whatever cost to the game's resulting gameplay quality.
Guess what the DFC is. I have found out some of my friends are DFC. They sent me emails. It seems to be like IMP was at UVA...a skull & bones type society that you get nominated too if you impress the existing members to advance specific causes. The funny thing is the guys I know who are in it are NOT particularly great virtual pilots...the sad thing is there isn't and doesn't need to be a LGC (land grabbing club) or GVC (GV club) because they are naturally fun. All the same I don't think it is a bad idea...I still think active leadership in the MA would be better. Stang and Jaxxo, when they played more, used to PM me all the time to come take bases so they could have better fights. When BoPs were available we would. Now Stang and JAxxo are outstanding members of the community imho...they represent ACM in a way that would inspire folks to get better :salute
And you've totaly ignored the fundamental argument that a game is based on interaction, a multi-team multiplayer game on competing, and that filling the gap in players' BFM and ACM skills is a positive. SIgh...for the umpteenth time yes we agree..it is a positive...but YOU seem to miss the point that many of us see the game as much more...comradery, fun, organization, reaching objectives...you know the BoP Falcons have an aggregate campaign fighter k/d of 2+ almost every camp...better then many "acm" squads. Yet we don't vulch, pick etc...it is just how we end up at the end of the day...i guess we feel we are good enough...
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Provoking trainers - Two wrongs don't make a right. I'll concede my english is rusty and "provoke" was the right meaning with probably the wrong inflection.
Training/teaching - Yes, that's what he implies. Don't jerk your knee if you think he's just hammering it for incriminating reflex. Ya know? Holding a grudge over a perceived insult is not going to help either.
Advancing the BFM/ACM cause - There's tons of ways, missions aren't the only one and unfortunately not the best one. One on one teaching is the best way. No matter how good a teacher you are, leading 10+ guys at a time will never compare with 1:1 tutoring.
DFC nomination criteria isn't elitist. It's actualy very diverse; I'd be willing to bet it's more diverse than any group in the game. The man who founded it probably has one of the very few best judgement of character and sense of responsibility I've seen explicitely.
Its specific causes are gameplay quality. It doesn't look down on strat or gv playing, it only recognizes that you can't build a road without small bits of stone. Micro/macro, BFM/ACM/.../Strategy, forest & trees again.
Active leadership in the MA won't work. No one cares about some armchair general in a pixel game that's removed from the player's interests. This is the same dynamic that dictates capping squads at some optimal size like 32.
You must recognize that you're not objective here. Stang and Jaxxo sound like your friends, as opposed to.. who? Widewing? Widewing and other non-friends are just as much furballers and proponents of quality gameplay as Jaxxo is. I can say with certainty that Jaxxo is actualy a very poor substitute for Widewing in this specific case. He's abrasive and individualistic, whereas Widewing is merely bold but altruistic, and a way better teacher on top of that. Whether anyone is a friend of yours or mine, or not, is independent of what matters as far as pushing the quality gameplay boulder up the hill goes.
"All it takes for evil to succeed is for good men to do nothing". Big words but the same dynamic is at work here.
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Oh and avoiding fights, Joker proved it. You guys scream no fights and he puts up a mission on country and you guys don't show.
Finally I don't consider myself an Einstein but you folks make me look like a phreaking genius while you muddle in syntax.
Yes, Joker's "proof" is just as valid as saying that your country sucks because they don't come defend a field when you tell them it's under attack.
..and trust me, no one here has come anywhere near make you look like a genius....you simply make it too hard!! :devil
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Yes, Joker's "proof" is just as valid as saying that your country sucks because they don't come defend a field when you tell them it's under attack.
..and trust me, no one here has come anywhere near make you look like a genius....you simply make it too hard!! :devil
You make it easy!
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You make it easy!
Right. You are a real rocket scientist/brain surgeon. You create a thread based on a subject that you know will be volatile and then when that everyone else is stupid and mistreats you??
Oh yeah, that's really a bright move. :rolleyes: :rofl
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Sample of game play....
Bops load up a plan, execute it flawlessly, but DO NOT take down fighter hangers, nor do they set up the vulch. In stead, they allow a fight to develop, if one is to. Sure it makes the capture a bit less certain, but it does generate more fun for more people. Being the awesome squad that the Bops are, they should still be able to take the base, but more fights ensue, both side have fun.
Couldn't this be a good game plan? couldn't the ACM types as well as landgrabbers, and team oriented players, and even unskilled new players find more fun this way? Just a small change in how a "mega-squad" operates can increase the fun of many. Wouldn't this be better for the community as a whole?
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And at the lower scale, ganging up on a con that's already got its hands full in a 2:1 is no good. For all involved.
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Couldn't this be a good game plan? couldn't the ACM types as well as landgrabbers, and team oriented players, and even unskilled new players find more fun this way? Just a small change in how a "mega-squad" operates can increase the fun of many. Wouldn't this be better for the community as a whole?
The only flaw seems to be that it isn't an "easy-mode" strategy and taking risks in AH doesn't seem to be the norm anymore.
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Right. You are a real rocket scientist/brain surgeon. You create a thread based on a subject that you know will be volatile and then when that everyone else is stupid and mistreats you??
Oh yeah, that's really a bright move. :rolleyes: :rofl
Up until the last few posts I have treated everyone with respect and courtesy. Have they done the same? Nope. Yes it is volatile. I was counting on maturity. Now that was foolish. I never called anyone stupid and until your post I never attacked an individual player or poster ever. So what do you expect when you attack me personally.
But for the record I am a pretty smart guy. I have a BS and a Masters. Sure doesn't make me a genius but it does show some intelligence. All my kids, I have 3, have two degrees and one almost has a 3rd degree. My youngest daughter was valedictorian of her high school, Suma Cum Laud of her college and graduated with a masters from Cornell University. (She got a full Scholarship) Do you think they got some good direction from me. They sure did. I taught my kids math and science from the time they could talk. My oldest daughter could say the most difficult words you can imagine before she could even walk. She's now a novelist. Albeit a struggling one. I think I have some legs to stand on here.
So you can roll your eyes and be condescending all you want. If you attack me you're going to get it back. It seems being courteous and respectful only make you the target.
BTW, in reference to my genius statement folks were taking tidbits from my post and adding additional wording to make it say what they wanted to or they were copying different lines from different segments to do the same thing. I don't think that adds much to the argument. Do you? Now where I was off I at least had the guts to say yeah, I was off there. I see that from no one else. I mean you just did it. You said I called someone stupid. I never did. Well actually your sentence was broken up a bit. But it seems to indicate that. I don't think these people are stupid.
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I have a BS and a Masters.
BTW, in reference to my genius statement folks were taking tidbits from my post and adding additional wording to make it say what they wanted to or they were copying different lines from different segments to do the same thing.
I have a Masters in BS. :aok
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I have a Masters in BS. :aok
:rofl :rofl :rofl :rofl
Apparently I working on mine.
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Sample of game play....
Bops load up a plan, execute it flawlessly, but DO NOT take down fighter hangers, nor do they set up the vulch. In stead, they allow a fight to develop, if one is to. Sure it makes the capture a bit less certain, but it does generate more fun for more people. Being the awesome squad that the Bops are, they should still be able to take the base, but more fights ensue, both side have fun.
Couldn't this be a good game plan? couldn't the ACM types as well as landgrabbers, and team oriented players, and even unskilled new players find more fun this way? Just a small change in how a "mega-squad" operates can increase the fun of many. Wouldn't this be better for the community as a whole?
This type of game play is exactly what I used to see the most of when I first started in AH about 2 years ago. It seems to be a little more rare now though.
I probably saw more of this before though because of I played mostly during daytime hours (off-peak) and now it is mostly night and early morning hours. None-the-less though if it had not been for the above type of activity creating large scale fights I probably would not have continued this long here.
I remember logging on and fighting over the same 2-3-4 bases for hours on end.
Huge furball halfway between 2 bases takes place and an occasional rook fighter gets through to kill town
eventually town is down and goon gets in base taken
knights continue to up from next closest base and new furball is created between there and the freshly taken base
knights end up sneaking a fighter through abd takes down town
eventually town down andn goon gets through
furball resumes in original position and the whole cycle continues for several hours
man I miss those days
in case any of you missed it though, I agree with you here fugitive this creates probably the best game play/ experience to be offered IMHO
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Sample of game play....
Bops load up a plan, execute it flawlessly, but DO NOT take down fighter hangers, nor do they set up the vulch. In stead, they allow a fight to develop, if one is to. Sure it makes the capture a bit less certain, but it does generate more fun for more people. Being the awesome squad that the Bops are, they should still be able to take the base, but more fights ensue, both side have fun.
Couldn't this be a good game plan? couldn't the ACM types as well as landgrabbers, and team oriented players, and even unskilled new players find more fun this way? Just a small change in how a "mega-squad" operates can increase the fun of many. Wouldn't this be better for the community as a whole?
You pretty much sum up our missions...we almost never hit fhs...vh at the most and we usually form a wall between town and the base....sometimes they up enough to overwhelm us and get our goons..sometimes they don't...if we never fought I am at a loss to explain our number of kills.....so YES it is a good gameplan...
Fug while I understand Hitech's point of view about multi-wing squads (megasquads), BoPs dont field more then 30 players on squad nite and often less (mid 20's). Most of our nights are spent defending...we GV alot more on these multi-spawn maps...anyone is welcome to visit our channel and follow us around...they might be suprised...
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If we're thinking for the same night and the same event in the MA,...
From what I saw, both Bish and Knits had massive hordes, fighting side by side in the same spot against rooks. And themselves too,.. but my point here is,...there were 6 soild blocks of enemy being thrown at the rooks in massive hordes from both sides. The hordes were so large, there was no other fight in the arena,.. out of 200 pile-its.
Why do I bring this up? Someone is actually complaining about all the kills the Rooks landed when they have the biggest target rich environment I ever saw in AH. That said,.. the ENTIRE Rook nation could NOT be on the offensive because it took all they had to even be on the defensive. How in the world can you just say they just gave up land. They didn't give it up,..and they didn't do anything different. Why should they lose real estate when they have the two biggest hords I have ever seen in AH taking it from them.
For what I saw,.. for the odds they were up against,... they played it liking vikings. With all that was against them they should have lost the whole country. They\We didn't. That said, I didn't really hear any complaining about being horded to death on their radio channel.
So are you complaining about their playing performance in a war,... or that you dind't do as well as you thought you should have? IMO if they weren't involved in the war, then you should have owned that entire country with the massive hordes that were thrown at them.
just sayin....might want to re-think this one.
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And since the gloves are off here. Murdr, I sure all that you do is greatly appreciated. I like the hints and tips when you log in and I do love stats. I'm an accountant. Still I've often heard that people often point to their on-line friends as the reason they stay.
Well, DUH! How do you define your friends? By squad? By country? Not me. There are quite a number of people who I've had no squad affiliation with who I keep telephone contact with, or even have hung out with them in real life. There's no requirement of a "mission" or "squad" to form a friendship. I have an open invitation on a number of vox channels from being friends with one or more of the people that are on it. If you are implying the goal of WiNnINg TEH WAr or sharing squad affiliation somehow has exclusive lock as a bonding experience, you are entirely incorrect.
You spent quite a few paragraphs arguing that somehow kills do not have an impact on gameplay, and then threw in a comment about friendships which was a real stretch for being related to the rest of what you were saying.
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Well, DUH! How do you define your friends? By squad? By country? Not me. There are quite a number of people who I've had no squad affiliation with who I keep telephone contact with, or even have hung out with them in real life. There's no requirement of a "mission" or "squad" to form a friendship. I have an open invitation on a number of vox channels from being friends with one or more of the people that are on it. If you are implying the goal of WiNnINg TEH WAr or sharing squad affiliation somehow has exclusive lock as a bonding experience, you are entirely incorrect.
You spent quite a few paragraphs arguing that somehow kills do not have an impact on gameplay, and then threw in a comment about friendships which was a real stretch for being related to the rest of what you were saying.
I'm not sure of your point Murdr. I don't think people necessarily define their friendship by country, squad etc. Although those things do help build a bond and are more likely to lead to friendship. My favorite funny about this was in my AW days. One of the guys, Mikal I think, I used to duke it out with all the time. He was a great pilot in his own right. We were bitter adversaries. He came over to Bz and we started winging together. After a tirade of that man's incredible humor I said. "hey I never realized you had such a great sense of humor when you were killing me. :rofl :rofl :rofl We became good friends. So yes being on the same country and winging help.
I stay in contact with a couple of rooks. I'm not sure if they are friends I hope so. Either way I think friendship does count in play and continuance.
Edit: Had to reread my post. No my line about teamwork and friendship is in line with the rest of my post. I mean it does influence the game probably more than people realize.
Also, after your post quoting hitech, I agreed with you that my statement was in error. But it also bolstered my point. And to which no one had the cajones to admit.
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Your not sure of my point? You're the one that directed a comment at me on a subject I had said nothing about.
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Your not sure of my point? You're the one that directed a comment at me on a subject I had said nothing about.
Edited my post. Please read.
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If we clear the subscribership roles, and all new bodies come in to play AH, let's look at "impact on the game". When a player clicks into an arena, they're likely to be presented with a help tip that someone like Rolex, Hammer, or I wrote. When they enter the arena, they are likely to be on a map that NHawk, NoBaddy, fester or others produced. When they pick a plane, they have the option to select a skin that people like oboe, greebo, Fencer or others produced. When they fly a plane, that planes model is likely affected by historical data that a player took the time to research and share with HTC. When a player needs more than the hamster wheel of the MAs to hold their interest, they have the option of special events that were innovated and refined by the likes of DoKGonzo and Brooke, and played on terrains produced by Dux's terrain team. So if two people were gone from the game tommarow, which of those two really had an impact on the game. The one who gave freely of their time for the enjoyment of all? Or the one who organized team work for a few? One of those two had a tangable lasting effect on the game.
Here's your paragraph. Again, everyone should appreciate these efforts. I do. In fact I downloaded my stats tonight from your post in this thread. Still I think most would point to friendship as a reason they stay. But obviously what you and others do has an enormous impact as well and I refuse to discount that. Please note I am not putting you down here or slighting you as you have done me.
Edit: How it got to this level I don't know. Seems it is just kill the messenger by any means. Most are missing the thrust of my message and instead are pointing this line or that line trying to find any perceived weakness or make a weakness by adding some additional wording. Posting wars are hell. :rofl :rofl
Edit: Okay, maybe I should have added that in during game play friendship has the most influence. After all, my post is talking about during play. I would have thought I wouldn't have to get so detailed.
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It appears you are talking about apples and I am talking about oranges. A number of things simply are in the game, or are the way they are because of the efforts of a very long list of individual players. Hence an "impact on the game". If those players were gone tommarow, their impact would remain. Either hard coded into the game, or as an availible feature or activity.
AH is an online game. There is supposed to be a social aspect as a feature of gameplay. The social aspect is a constant. I don't know why there would even be a question on such a given. Hence the reply "Well DUH!". An individual may socially organize others to make an impact on gameplay, and they may leave an indelible mark on the community, but the game itself is not impacted by them (on that basis alone). If that person leaves another will take their role, and maybe even take on that role in their honor so to speak, but still that is in the realm of gameplay and community, and not "the game" itself.
So, I'll rephrase the question and ask again. One player plays the game for two years, organizes missions, makes friends, has a hand in getting map resets, then leaves. Another plays the game for two years, makes friends, and creates game content that HTC distributes, then leaves. Which of those two left a lasting impact on "the game"?
Edit: And by the way, I clearly made the distinction in the original post which you ommited when starting this thread
You changed one word here, which completely changes the subject matter from my point of view (arena to game). Those are two distinctly different things.
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It appears you are talking about apples and I am talking about oranges. A number of things simply are in the game, or are the way they are because of the efforts of a very long list of individual players. Hence an "impact on the game". If those players were gone tommarow, their impact would remain. Either hard coded into the game, or as an availible feature or activity.
AH is an online game. There is supposed to be a social aspect as a feature of gameplay. The social aspect is a constant. I don't know why there would even be a question on such a given. Hence the reply "Well DUH!". An individual may socially organize others to make an impact on gameplay, and they may leave an indelible mark on the community, but the game itself is not impacted by them (on that basis alone). If that person leaves another will take their role, and maybe even take on that role in their honor so to speak, but still that is in the realm of gameplay and community, and not "the game" itself.
So, I'll rephrase the question and ask again. One player plays the game for two years, organizes missions, makes friends, has a hand in getting map resets, then leaves. Another plays the game for two years, makes friends, and creates game content that HTC distributes, then leaves. Which of those two left a lasting impact on "the game"?
Obviously the latter. Great question. Still though, which effects the actual game play at the moment. The one playing. (Not sure if that last sentence is clear)
I agree with the apples and oranges analogy.
PS. Honestly, I am glad you brought up the work that goes on in the background of the game. I don't think we, the pedestrian player, realize the efforts that many put into the game freely on their own time. Many are too quick to criticize those efforts and do not realize who is doing them. Also the copying of your post was only intended to make a point. Not as a condemnation. Actually it was useless information for my post once you posted what Hitech said. Still though I remain solidly behind my observations and my basic message and what Hitech said did support my opinion.
On your edit: Saw that.
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Don't furballers etc feed off the folks that attempt captures?!
They can, but it's not nessacery. Otherwise you would not constantly see armchair generals constantly whining about furballers sapping rescources of "their" war effort, and intentionally killing furballs to force others to play the way they want to.
Here are portions of a conversation on that topic...
Many many times, I've seen the attitude by the "war winning" minded player, that the "furballers" are a resource that they are entitled to tap. They follow up on that concept by toolsheding specifically to kill the furball, and to free up their team mates to play the way they want. There is not a parallel situation in the reverse. So I can understand the little jabs being thrown in the conversation.
As a case in point to illustrate the truth of what Murdr says here and what AKAK alluded to earlier. The extremely popular Donut map was removed from the rotation due to the angst created when the "toolshedders" or "win the war types" felt it necessary to destroy the Fighter Town on the map in an effort to coerce those playing there, against their wills, to assist elsewhere with their map reset goal, furballers really didn't want the map reset at all as they loved the map.
What would happen on Donut, and why "toolshedders" often rely on "furballers" on other maps, is one team would commit less of its furballers to FT (usually Bish). This left a far greater proportion of "furballers" elsewhere on the map which could not be effectively countered by the other two teams because all of their furballers were at FT. So, the toolshedders from the other two teams, frustrated by their lack of headway toward winning the war, set about destroying the FT for the "good of their teams" in an effort to leave their furballers no choice but to fight where they wanted them to and hopefully "win the war" and reset the map.
So, I suppose if all teams were comprised of ONLY toolshedders, furballers would not be necessary as no one would actually be fighting each other per se, they would just be pounding pixels with NOE smash & grabs or 30k Buffs. But, as there are those who enjoy fighting each other on other teams, each team requires those "furballer" types in most situations to counter one another and maintain local air superiority long enough to effect base captures and eventually reset the map.
It is because of this I always laugh to myself when I hear some lil' Napoleon spewing venom because all of the "furballers" left the base he wanted prior to capture consummation. But, almost invariably the reason they left is due to the fact he dropped the Fighter Hangers and there was no one for the "furballers" to furball, so they left for greener pastures elsewhere. Now, because he has no fighters there and the FHs are coming back up, the remaining toolshedders get whalloped by the defenders and fail to effect the base capture. In all honesty it is the "furballers" that really don't need the "toolshedders" not the other way around.
I can't understand why any furballer flys in any arena except the DA? If it's all about the fight and aircombat, why bother with any other arena except the one designed for furballers? The LWA was designed for people to capture fields, I suggest that the furballers go to the arena designed for them. If they insist in flying in any other arena, they have to accept the fact that land grabers are going to be doing their thing as well.
As far as I can see, Knights seem to have the most dedicated group of furballers. I base this conclusion on the number of fields that Knights lose on any given day and what appears to be a Knight's inability to capture a field. Why they lose so many fields with so many furballers is byond me. They say it's because you can't defend against a hoard. What do they think 20 guys furballing is?
The bolded statement above is the biggest load of crap that MOST toolsheders believe in this game. The arenas.....and yes thats ALL OF THEM were made to generate fights! PERIOD ! It doesn't matter if the fight is 1 vs 1 in the air, on the ground, or 20 vs 20 trying to grab a base, its all there to generate fights !
The only problem furballers have with toolsheders is the toolsheder feels they MUST destroy the furball, whether they see it as a chance to grab a base, or to force the furballers to help them grab more bases.
The only problem toolsheders have with furballers is that they see all those resources wasted, how can that be fun when nothing gets accomplished !
This game was not designed for furballers alone, nor was it made "to win the war", its all here to serve as a means to an end.... to get everyone to fight !
I can't understand why any furballer flys in any arena except the DA? If it's all about the fight and aircombat, why bother with any other arena except the one designed for furballers?
The DA was not designed for furballing. It was designed as a place to have duels. The little furball lake in the DA sprung up to give those who couldn't respect the rules of the arena someplace to have their fun without interfering with those using the DA for its intended purpose. Prior to furball lake's existance, those guys would jump into any duel they could find whether they were invited or not. It has neither the variety or complexity of MA fights.
Not quite right, either. Base capture, just like everything else in the game, was designed as a way to generate combat between the sides.
Not quite right, either. Base capture, just like everything else in the game, was designed as a way to generate combat between the sides.
If they insist in flying in any other arena, they have to accept the fact that land grabers are going to be doing their thing as well.
Like I said, if that's your thing, go have fun. The only thing I don't like is when the land grab crowd come to the good furball and take out the hangars so the furballers will come help them. It happens every time a good fight gets going.
What do they think 20 guys furballing is?
A lot of fun? Why it is seen as detrimental to land grabbing is what this discussion is all about. On most maps, there are a half dozen or more fields on any given front. Most have no activity going on. Yet if a furball develops between 2 of them, someone will undoubtedly come in, drop the fighter hangars at one of them, and scream for the capture. The guys enjoying the fight keep pushing until they realize they are running out of opponents, at which point most will move on. The base capture crowd slap themselves on the back at what a great thing they did when, in reality, they could have done it at a number of other bases without raining on anybody else's parade.
Regards,
Hammer
Batfink made the opposite argument that land grabbers need furballers in this recent thread http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/index.php/topic,258564.0.html
From the constant armchair general whines, I'm not surprised.
But in that thread trotter made pretty good points regarding this question.
Don't sweat it! Base capture types have a quantifiable outcome to justify their exertions. They even get a fancy "in lights" recognition for each capture. So they feel like they are the rulers of the AH world.
See how far they get without the furballers on their side keeping the skies clear. There is no quantifiable data for "kill efficiency", but dedicated A2A types can knock bandits out of the sky exponentially faster than capture types. The kill that will take you two passes and 30 seconds might take a "capture type" two and a half minutes of dead six pursuit, and an entire clip of LA-7 20mm before that kill is made. Keeping the skies clear efficiently, or at the very least maintaining air combat balance, keeps IL-2's and A-20's from busting GV's. All sides play a part in winning the war, and whether furballers care or not, they play a very valuable role.
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Wow Murdr, much to read there. I'm not so sure I took it all in. This is hard on an old man's tired eyes.
Let me say I disagree with Zazen somewhat and I also somewhat disagree with MDjoe, The Fugitive. They seem to have opposite views. I read Batfink's post and am in total agreement I think (Like I said a lot there). However if you ask a dedicated furballer(I honestly dont think this is the right word but we will go with it) they will tell you it's the landgrabbers we don't need and of course the landgrabbers will say the reverse. It's obvious that every country needs some furballers and landgrabbers. I would tilt that overall most landgrabbers do not have the fighter skill that a dedicated furballer has and the furballer does not have the strategy skill that a landgrabber has. Although in many missions some of bishops best fighters are included. If one is to lack a skill set then that philosophy should carry over to the other. Ideally neither should think they own the arena. There is immense satisfaction in "Winning the War". Trotters statement is justified to a point. I don't think they quite feel like rulers though. I think they do take pride in their accomplishment just has fighter would in defeating the enemy in front of him.
I'm still in agreement with what you quoted Hitech saying. It is still the attack on a base that brings about battle. At least mostly and definitely not always. In one of my posts I pointed out that in all my years in AH I have only had about 5 fights that were not related to base attacks. Most of the time it is a base attack that brings about the conflict. I think the "Win the War" aspect was designed for that as well. I think it's a pride thing.
Personally, I don't see Furballers as a wasted resource. If they don't want to join a mission they shouldn't and landgrabbers shouldn't expect it. I sure don't join every mission even though I love those things. I think in Batfink's post you had a situation where the landgrabber let pride get the best of him.
I certainly don't agree with taking down FT or TT for that matter. At least not until the end is nigh. Ghi doesn't prescribe to that either. About half of Joker's and Ghi's missions do not take down hangers. At times it is just necessary for the capture. I have no qualms about doing that. How did they capture the base. Come on at 2 a.m and sneak it with 10 people on? Almost all of my missions are cv missions. I ask that they take down the FHs inititially and keep the vh down. Generally I go in at bout 5 - 7k so there is plenty of warning. When I advertise my mission I tell them they are probably going to get some kills. That way I get the furballers too.
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I would tilt that overall most landgrabbers do not have the fighter skill that a dedicated furballer has and the furballer does not have the strategy skill that a landgrabber has.
There is a lot more strategy in surviving a multi plane engagement and still effectively killing without advantage. I don't understand what the strategy is of taking a base you speak of. A 10 year old could plan an effective base capture mission with a few guys. It's pretty cut and dry: 1) Take the VH down 2) Take the town down 3) Take FHs down if you have enough men and/or no fighter cap on base 4) Run troops into the map room. How does this strategy ever change? Furballs are dynamic and always changing. Complex strategy is a must to dominate this fight properly.
The perception that the WtW guys are the 'thinkers' while the furballers are just mindless drones turning around in circles couldn't be anymore opposite.
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Well not having read every single reply word for word, Id have to pick this one as my reality.
In other words, rooks are practicing the art of air combat and ignoring the "war." Sounds like the right approach to me. What the rooks see as a beautiful forest full of hidden pleasures the bish see as something to be clear-cut. :rofl
Well stated, couldnt agree more <S>
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You pretty much sum up our missions...we almost never hit fhs...vh at the most and we usually form a wall between town and the base....sometimes they up enough to overwhelm us and get our goons..sometimes they don't...if we never fought I am at a loss to explain our number of kills.....so YES it is a good gameplan...
Fug while I understand Hitech's point of view about multi-wing squads (megasquads), BoPs dont field more then 30 players on squad nite and often less (mid 20's). Most of our nights are spent defending...we GV alot more on these multi-spawn maps...anyone is welcome to visit our channel and follow us around...they might be suprised...
I only used the Bops because I knew you were in the thread Falcon, but its ALL the mega-squads that need to adopt this plan. On top of that if the Bops are hitting a base, another Bish squad should attack another spot/field again generating move area with a fight in stead of pig pilling on the fight the Bops already may have handled. I hope you do run your missions that way, I hope other learn from your squad and do the same.
Wow Murdr, much to read there. I'm not so sure I took it all in. This is hard on an old man's tired eyes.
Let me say I disagree with Zazen somewhat and I also somewhat disagree with MDjoe, The Fugitive. They seem to have opposite views. I read Batfink's post and am in total agreement I think (Like I said a lot there). However if you ask a dedicated furballer(I honestly dont think this is the right word but we will go with it) they will tell you it's the landgrabbers we don't need and of course the landgrabbers will say the reverse. It's obvious that every country needs some furballers and landgrabbers. I would tilt that overall most landgrabbers do not have the fighter skill that a dedicated furballer has and the furballer does not have the strategy skill that a landgrabber has. Although in many missions some of bishops best fighters are included. If one is to lack a skill set then that philosophy should carry over to the other. Ideally neither should think they own the arena. There is immense satisfaction in "Winning the War". Trotters statement is justified to a point. I don't think they quite feel like rulers though. I think they do take pride in their accomplishment just has fighter would in defeating the enemy in front of him.
I'm still in agreement with what you quoted Hitech saying. It is still the attack on a base that brings about battle. At least mostly and definitely not always. In one of my posts I pointed out that in all my years in AH I have only had about 5 fights that were not related to base attacks. Most of the time it is a base attack that brings about the conflict. I think the "Win the War" aspect was designed for that as well. I think it's a pride thing.
Personally, I don't see Furballers as a wasted resource. If they don't want to join a mission they shouldn't and landgrabbers shouldn't expect it. I sure don't join every mission even though I love those things. I think in Batfink's post you had a situation where the landgrabber let pride get the best of him.
I certainly don't agree with taking down FT or TT for that matter. At least not until the end is nigh. Ghi doesn't prescribe to that either. About half of Joker's and Ghi's missions do not take down hangers. At times it is just necessary for the capture. I have no qualms about doing that. How did they capture the base. Come on at 2 a.m and sneak it with 10 people on? Almost all of my missions are cv missions. I ask that they take down the FHs inititially and keep the vh down. Generally I go in at bout 5 - 7k so there is plenty of warning. When I advertise my mission I tell them they are probably going to get some kills. That way I get the furballers too.
I thought we where talking about the community? Sure you personally don't have a problem with furballer types, but there are many who do, and unfortunately they run some of the big squads. GHI is no saint, and I haven't run into Jokers missions enough to lump him into this category. Far too many times I've caught GHI running NOE missions deep into "enemy territory" only to run away to some other undefended spot on the map when people up to defend. 4 against his 10 and they run away ! This type of behavior then shows those that run with him that that is how you run missions. A couple of people who have jumped into his mission start their own squads and how do they run missions? the same way. They are so busy cutting down trees (grabbing bases) that they are missing out on the forest (combat and the struggle against an enemy for that base).
There is nothing wrong with the win the war types, like you said most of your fights are around a base capture. The problem today is more and more people are avoiding the fights by hiding in numbers, or under radar. To many people have gone the path of least resistance and have corupted what the game is all about, COMBAT
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There is a lot more strategy in surviving a multi plane engagement and still effectively killing without advantage. I don't understand what the strategy is of taking a base you speak of. A 10 year old could plan an effective base capture mission with a few guys. It's pretty cut and dry: 1) Take the VH down 2) Take the town down 3) Take FHs down if you have enough men and/or no fighter cap on base 4) Run troops into the map room. How does this strategy ever change? Furballs are dynamic and always changing. Complex strategy is a must to dominate this fight properly.
The perception that the WtW guys are the 'thinkers' while the furballers are just mindless drones turning around in circles couldn't be anymore opposite.
Grizz, I really don't know you. Have you ever ran missions? Actually there is a lot more to it. #1 You have to pick a meaningful target. Base selection is important. If you pick a totally isolated base it may not hold any value. a small isolated base can be rendered ineffective since strats can be taken down easy and fast. So you have to take a base that has strategic value whether that be defensive or offensive. Also, you have to understand the mindset and patterns of the enemy. You have to make a determination of what the enemy is thinking. Tough thing to do and yet necessary. Or maybe even plant a thought in the enemies head. Yes I can do this. Then you need to pick the best way to do it. Do you feign an attack on a nearby base? Do you go noe or at alt? Do you need gv support or air support? You have to get everyone on the same page. No easy task I tell you. Then there is execution. And wow can that go wrong. So you have to get everyone in the same mindset. I refuse to give any of my tactics here but I assure you there is some pretty creative ways to take a base. Even the goon driver has to have skill. I never leave the goon driving to someone I don't know. I can give some great examples but I will leave it this.
However, I like your thinking on the furballers. I consider myself more of fighter pilot than a landgrabber. I continuously study acm and I continuously study other aspects of the game. However I do both and enjoy both.
Before I had deleted my account my ACM skills had improved remarkably. At least that is the illusion I was under. :rofl :rofl
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Grizz, I really don't know you. Have you ever ran missions? Actually there is a lot more to it. #1 You have to pick a meaningful target. Base selection is important. If you pick a totally isolated base it may not hold any value. a small isolated base can be rendered ineffective since strats can be taken down easy and fast. So you have to take a base that has strategic value whether that be defensive or offensive. Also, you have to understand the mindset and patterns of the enemy. You have to make a determination of what the enemy is thinking. Tough thing to do and yet necessary. Or maybe even plant a thought in the enemies head. Yes I can do this. Then you need to pick the best way to do it. Do you feign an attack on a nearby base? Do you go noe or at alt? Do you need gv support or air support? You have to get everyone on the same page. No easy task I tell you. Then there is execution. And wow can that go wrong. So you have to get everyone in the same mindset. I refuse to give any of my tactics here but I assure you there is some pretty creative ways to take a base. Even the goon driver has to have skill. I never leave the goon driving to someone I don't know. I can give some great examples but I will leave it this.
However, I like your thinking on the furballers. I consider myself more of fighter pilot than a landgrabber. I continuously study acm and I continuously study other aspects of the game. However I do both and enjoy both.
Two problems with what you've said here....
1. you are basing what you say on you, not the community. I would be very surprised if 5% of the missions run had even half of the things you mentioned in them. Today most just say "ok everyone up heavy here and we'll take the next base in line". As long as the horde moves together.
2. "I refuse to give any of my tactics here but I assure you there is some pretty creative ways to take a base." Lets make the game better for everyone, but I'll keep my secrets to myself. I'm glad the trainers don't have this attitude, as well as the majority of players. So in stead of spreading the wealth and teaching others how to go about making good and meaningfull missions you would rather keep that info to yourself.
Granted you may be just saying that so as to keep your post short, but this is part of the problem. even those running the big missions aren't bothering to use any tactics, or stratigys, they just hammer the next base in line.
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I thought we where talking about the community? Sure you personally don't have a problem with furballer types, but there are many who do, and unfortunately they run some of the big squads. GHI is no saint, and I haven't run into Jokers missions enough to lump him into this category. Far too many times I've caught GHI running NOE missions deep into "enemy territory" only to run away to some other undefended spot on the map when people up to defend. 4 against his 10 and they run away ! This type of behavior then shows those that run with him that that is how you run missions. A couple of people who have jumped into his mission start their own squads and how do they run missions? the same way. They are so busy cutting down trees (grabbing bases) that they are missing out on the forest (combat and the struggle against an enemy for that base).
There is nothing wrong with the win the war types, like you said most of your fights are around a base capture. The problem today is more and more people are avoiding the fights by hiding in numbers, or under radar. To many people have gone the path of least resistance and have corupted what the game is all about, COMBAT
Nope sure don't have a problem with furballer types (Which is a misnomer if you ask me), Don't have a problem with NOEs, hordes, etc. If someone captures my countries base with an NOE shame on us for not paying attention. As far as hordes go. They have always been there. Must have been the first thing someone figured out :lol :lol People in hordes get tired of them pretty quickly unless they are about to win the war. Personally if I'm in a horde I will likely on get one kill if at all. If I go out by myself then I will probably get multiple kills. Like I stated earlier, I rather fly into a horde than be in one.
On the subject of furballers, Murdr made an excellent point there. They have an impact on the game no matter the mindset. From Batfinks post, it can even be a positive one in the mind of the landgrabber. I will say in a FT environment it less of an impact on overall game play but they are doing what they enjoy.
It is about the community, fly the way you enjoy and allow others to do the same. I've stayed on message I think the whole way through this thread. Again, I was just trying to point out an observation. Which most posters seem to either ignore or just don't like.
The game is about combat and strategy. I don't think it's irony that the countries are named after chess pieces though.
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Two problems with what you've said here....
1. you are basing what you say on you, not the community. I would be very surprised if 5% of the missions run had even half of the things you mentioned in them. Today most just say "ok everyone up heavy here and we'll take the next base in line". As long as the horde moves together.
2. "I refuse to give any of my tactics here but I assure you there is some pretty creative ways to take a base." Lets make the game better for everyone, but I'll keep my secrets to myself. I'm glad the trainers don't have this attitude, as well as the majority of players. So in stead of spreading the wealth and teaching others how to go about making good and meaningfull missions you would rather keep that info to yourself.
Granted you may be just saying that so as to keep your post short, but this is part of the problem. even those running the big missions aren't bothering to use any tactics, or strategies, they just hammer the next base in line.
1. Well, yes I am basing it on me. I will let others speak for themselves. I will say Falcon23 goes through the same routine. Although I think I am far more creative.
2. Okay I will give out my tactics, I was insulating myself there. Cause buddy I am going to get hammered. I might as well say ouch now.
You see a base flashing with no radar. So you up an ILII and head to town to kill a tank but before you get there the town is captured. You say what the heck, It just started flashing. That was me, I killed the town out of radar alarm range with a panzer. Blame Mugz, he taught me that btw. You ever successfully defend a base where the two bases radar ranged overlapped and no gv spawn near? You then think I am taking this fight to the bish. Lets go boys. But when you get there and start to fight the base you defended is captured. That was me driving an m3 from the one base to the other. You ever have a high cap over a base looking for a goon and no gv spawn near. But it gets captured anyway, that is me again in an m3.
You ever see a plane flying over a factory near the radar range of a base, that would be my comrade playing decoy while I am tearing down the town in an osty. You think well just a milkrunner since there is no gv spawn to the base. Told you I can get into your head.
With the panzer I have taken many ports with no gv spawn simply by staying out of dar alarm range and shelling the ack, the vh, and then the manned ack in that order. Generally I have comrade beside me in an m3. We simply just walk in and drop the troops.
So many maps have spawns to factories or to bases that aren't really all that far to the base beside it. When maps don't I call it Getback proof. One key thing is I try to leave the water tower up. So when someone glances at the town and sees the water tower they think the town is up. Learned that from Falcon23. I can take that down with my m3 on the way in.
Ever see my squad name? It's MGVA. Stands for Marathon Ground Vehicles Association. Was a running joke with in the Rolling Thunder community. This is one of the reasons I don't mind hordes. Helps my cause when everyone goes to one base. I've played a huge roll in wining wars with these tactics.
So there you have it. Are you willing to do it. Probably not. For most it is boring. For me it's pure exhilaration and adrenaline. It gets so intense sometimes I shake. I mean I just drove a half hour or more and it could fail because of just one upper.
Let me give you an example. One day RT ran a mission to a base where the radar range overlapped. There is no gv spawn there. They got the town down in short order but the goon was killed and the Rooks upped in mass. Not to be thwarted I spawned in from one base to the base the rooks were attacking. But the spawn is only about 15 miles from the target base. I have about 40 minutes to get there. No biggie. But about a third of the way there I see a low ki. So I stop. But golly he sure sounds close. So I jump into the pintle gun and swing around to see a spit diving on me. I ping the spit and he crashes into a tree behind me. I now have been spotted. Do I continue. Well the Ki never came down so I think the guy in the spit didn't tell anyone. So I continue but I take a longer route out of the usual flight path. Is the town going to pop? It's getting close. I sat over a hill looking at the town. It's still down. Is there a werble in town? I don't see anything but it's now or never. I run into town while several planes pass off to the seaside and drop troops. It takes. Gawd was that intense. I could barely talk afterwards. Now you think the town is flashing so someone should have looked. However remember the radars overlap so what they probably thought it was just a con near radar range.
Now Bj229 caught me one day btw. I killed is hurricane and then his ILII, Rotten rascal comes back in an m8 and kills my osty. He just couldn't let it go. :rofl :rofl
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With all due respect Getback.. And this risks getting some people all winded up to talk smack.. Those are all cheap tricks. Panzer? The M4 puts the Panzer's long range shelling to shame. Move the head position in the turret up as far as it will go, hit F8 for pan mode, pan down to focus back on the sights and voila, extra long range like no other HE self-propelled gun in the game with the same optics accuracy as default head position.
Anyone who's played a number of scenarios knows all about the decoy mind games, too. Years old textbook trick.
These tricks aren't inherently more difficult to understand than furballing, and they're not a matter of split second assessment/decision like you get in air combat.
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With all due respect Getback.. And this risks getting some people all winded up to talk smack.. Those are all cheap tricks. Panzer? The M4 puts the Panzer's long range shelling to shame. Move the head position in the turret up as far as it will go, hit F8 for pan mode, pan down to focus back on the sights and voila, extra long range like no other HE self-propelled gun in the game with the same optics accuracy as default head position.
Anyone who's played a number of scenarios knows all about the decoy mind games, too. Years old textbook trick.
These tricks aren't inherently more difficult to understand than furballing, and they're not a matter of split second assessment/decision like you get in air combat.
Cheap tricks, yeah I know but effective. Never said I invented them. Most of what I learned I learned from others first. I don't think I've tried it in an m4, Have to do that when I return. I did try it in a Tiger and something else. Neither could do it.
Of course way different than furballing. Nothing like a long drive in the country. They get great gas mileage too. These are things I do but by no means all the time. I enjoy every thing the game has to offer.
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lol bloated idea of self importance.
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Let me give you an example. One day RT ran a mission to a base where the radar range overlapped. There is no gv spawn there. They got the town down in short order but the goon was killed and the Rooks upped in mass. Not to be thwarted I spawned in from one base to the base the rooks were attacking. But the spawn is only about 15 miles from the target base. I have about 40 minutes to get there. No biggie. But about a third of the way there I see a low ki. So I stop. But golly he sure sounds close. So I jump into the pintle gun and swing around to see a spit diving on me. I ping the spit and he crashes into a tree behind me. I now have been spotted. Do I continue. Well the Ki never came down so I think the guy in the spit didn't tell anyone. So I continue but I take a longer route out of the usual flight path. Is the town going to pop? It's getting close. I sat over a hill looking at the town. It's still down. Is there a werble in town? I don't see anything but it's now or never. I run into town while several planes pass off to the seaside and drop troops. It takes. Gawd was that intense. I could barely talk afterwards. Now you think the town is flashing so someone should have looked. However remember the radars overlap so what they probably thought it was just a con near radar range.
Now Bj229 caught me one day btw. I killed is hurricane and then his ILII, Rotten rascal comes back in an m8 and kills my osty. He just couldn't let it go. :rofl :rofl
There ya go..proof RT IS better than Jokers. :D
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There ya go..proof RT IS gamier than Jokers. :D
:noid
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lol bloated idea of self importance.
He asked for my tactics I told him. That's it. I also said I would get hammered. Can you do anything at all besides attack the messenger. Try real hard. I have faith in you.
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There is a lot more strategy in surviving a multi plane engagement and still effectively killing without advantage. I don't understand what the strategy is of taking a base you speak of. A 10 year old could plan an effective base capture mission with a few guys. It's pretty cut and dry: 1) Take the VH down 2) Take the town down 3) Take FHs down if you have enough men and/or no fighter cap on base 4) Run troops into the map room. How does this strategy ever change? Furballs are dynamic and always changing. Complex strategy is a must to dominate this fight properly.
Actually, taking bases and Winning the War does take a good deal of strategy, which is why both happen far less frequently than they could.
Now that Trinity's back in the rotation, just look at the SE sector. You have A1 which is the mountain pass at 3k or so, and then a few 1k fields south and east of it. Then you have that monster base (forget the #) on the mountain at 5k south-east of A1.
CLEARLY, that mountain base is the key to dominating the region. Defenders can be ready to fight with energy within two minutes, and attacks can be launched on the entire region from that base with near impunity. It is a Malta, Gibraltar, and Ticonderoga all rolled into one. It needs to fall, or your offensive in that region WILL falter.
But how often is that base taken? Hardly ever. The low-lying fields around it are constantly contested and changing hands. They'd change hands only once if that mountain field was the attacker's first target. Yet it almost never is.
Why not? Because it is a difficult base to crack, which takes coordination, team work, strategy, and effort to capture. And for all their harping on about how much they love those aspects of the game, 9/10 Win the Warriors almost never display them.
Sad, harsh, true.
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"Amateurs talk strategy. Real generals talk logistics" :P
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"Amateurs talk strategy. Real generals talk logistics" :P
:rofl :rofl :rofl :rofl
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"Amateurs talk strategy. Real generals talk logistics" :P
Ok, let's work with that then.
Win the Warriors: ask yourselves how long it takes your aircraft to reach their designated altitude for approach to the target. Let's suppose that's 10k. Now factor in the amount of time it takes to reach that altitude, cover the distance between your starting base and your target, and to get up to combat speed. Fully-laden with ord and such, that takes a while.
Then decide just how long it takes for an enemy in a popular aircraft for base defence to match or exceed that altitude (remember, they have a 5k head start), and move into position to intercept your mission. Flying clean as most in defence-mode will, this does not take near as much time at all.
How many sorties can each of the defenders fly during the time it takes one of the attackers to arrive at that base? Obviously, the defender can up many more sorties. Follow that through, and you see that to win, the attacker needs to shoot down X number of enemies for each 1 loss of its own. For every 1000 feet of altitude a defending base launches its planes from, X will grow.
If the Attacker launches from the high ground, X begins to shrink to levels more manageable.
In a game where you have infinite lives, attrition (and logisitics) can be a tricky concept to grasp. It's easy enough to just look at the ebb and flow of the current, local numbers, but the real force at work is the amount of time it takes each side to make their distant numbers become local.
Heck, I'm a furballer, and I can figure it out. I'm sure you mission types could perfect it if you had the inclination.
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Wow this is a long thread.
The war thing AND furballing is about on the same plane of fun for me. I can do either and have a little bit of fun,but much prefer wandering the fringe finding a lone guy to fight. The base take stuff is either the "Sneaky Pete" method, or the "Sledgehammer" method. After awhile both get boring. A great 1 on 1 however, I could do till the cows come home.
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Up until the last few posts I have treated everyone with respect and courtesy. Have they done the same? Nope. Yes it is volatile. I was counting on maturity. Now that was foolish. I never called anyone stupid and until your post I never attacked an individual player or poster ever. So what do you expect when you attack me personally.
So you can roll your eyes and be condescending all you want. If you attack me you're going to get it back. It seems being courteous and respectful only make you the target.
BTW, in reference to my genius statement folks were taking tidbits from my post and adding additional wording to make it say what they wanted to or they were copying different lines from different segments to do the same thing. I don't think that adds much to the argument. Do you? Now where I was off I at least had the guts to say yeah, I was off there. I see that from no one else. I mean you just did it. You said I called someone stupid. I never did. Well actually your sentence was broken up a bit. But it seems to indicate that. I don't think these people are stupid.
So, you can "imply" that you believe the people you are arguing with are stupid (the quote was....I don't consider myself an Einstein but you folks make me look like a phreaking genius.." and you aren't really calling anyone stupid? Congats on your degrees and your smart children...you might wanna grab a clue rake the next time you are in the gift shop. :rolleyes:
BTW, I NEVER took any of your statements out of context, nor did I alter the wording. The only problem I had with you was your choice to use a scatter gun to try and deal with those that did. You made a blanket statement to the community, basically insulting anyone that might have disagreed with you....and yes. I took offense. You might want to consider being a little more specific when tossing insults around.
edit begins here..
Having read the rest of your posts in the thread since you tried to take me to task, it appears that you have recovered from your fit of pique yesterday. I am please because prior to your insulting post, I know that I had not intentionally insulted you. I hope it stays that way.
BTW, when you stop by the gift shop...give 'em the keyphrase "NB's an ICEhole" they will add a 10% charge to your purchases. :devil
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LOL...Says Mr
Quote from: Joker2 on January 06, 2009, 03:53:22 PM
I'm the J0KER of the Bish Jokers Jokers,
Name ring a bell now?
I still laugh to myself when I think about him saying that to me. Good times, good times.
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Sometimes I think that win the warrers have a disillusioned view on the dynamic of the game on the micro level. For example, say there is a big battle between two bases that rages for an hour. A great furball. Finally one side knocks out the fighter hangars and lopsides the fight and the base is taken. The Win the war guys will immediately congratulate all the pilots involved in the victory. It's like some of them think that everyone was fighting to capture the base when in reality most were fighting just to engage in air to air combat and enjoy the game for its intended purpose. In doing so on the micro level, the macro goal (WtW'ers goal anyways) was achieved in taking the base. I don't think the majority of the players really care that the base was captured and a good portion will be upset that the fight is dead.
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Falconwing, lets clear the air a little bit, okay?
What you found to be an insult to your squad was this statement: "There isn't a single BOP that could wake me up from a nap."
That may hurt some feelings, but it was meant to provoke some thought. First and foremost, it's a true statement. Granted, I could have said that there isn't one member of the BOPs that would survive a duel with me. So yeah, it was harsh; but it wasn't exaggeration. Nonetheless, it wasn't polite and I apologize for being rather unkind. You defended your guys and that's a good thing. That's what good leaders do.
You seem like a good guy, and fellow DFC guys who know you have told me exactly that. Being pretty good judges of character, I will gladly accept their opinions as fact. So rather than snipe at each other, let's concentrate on how we can agree. Fair enough?
I realize that you set up training sessions for your squad to duel and brawl. That's also a good thing. However, I have learned that most players will never rise above the level of competition. When average players duel average players, the winner is just a better average player. To get to a higher level, you need stiffer competition. This would be top level pilots who can spot mistakes and weaknesses and make or recommend immediate adjustments. That's where the Trainers and DFC can benefit your guys.
I'm willing to join your group in the TA anytime you want to bring them in. I can bring in other trainers and/or DFC members. Believe me, a few intense sessions will switch on lights.
First, we'll show how them exactly how outclassed they are. I know that sounds mean and even pompous, but it is essential to recognize where you are. They need that baseline. With 30 minutes of coaching, they will actually see a measurable improvement. They will become excited that they could step it up that quick. Every one of them will come away realizing that they have more potential than they ever imagined. From there, it's upward and onward. As they they improve, increments of gain will become smaller. Like a runner, getting to a 5 minute mile is attainable. Getting to 4:45 will be hard. Getting to 4:40 will be very hard. We should be able to get everyone to the 5 minute mile goal. Some will continue, working for the next level. Others will be satisfied at the 5 minute mark. However, all will be notably better for the effort.
I think it's worth the effort.
PM me if you think I can help your guys...
My regards,
Widewing
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.........................
Now Bj229 caught me one day btw. I killed is hurricane and then his ILII, Rotten rascal comes back in an m8 and kills my osty. He just couldn't let it go. :rofl :rofl
Lol that musta been a while back...sounds like me though :lol
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Lol that musta been a while back...sounds like me though :lol
Probably about 7 or 8 months ago. You said wow, long drive. I think it was better than a sector drive. Nothing was really going on so I jumped into an osty and started driving.
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So, you can "imply" that you believe the people you are arguing with are stupid (the quote was....I don't consider myself an Einstein but you folks make me look like a phreaking genius.." and you aren't really calling anyone stupid? Congats on your degrees and your smart children...you might wanna grab a clue rake the next time you are in the gift shop. :rolleyes:
BTW, I NEVER took any of your statements out of context, nor did I alter the wording. The only problem I had with you was your choice to use a scatter gun to try and deal with those that did. You made a blanket statement to the community, basically insulting anyone that might have disagreed with you....and yes. I took offense. You might want to consider being a little more specific when tossing insults around.
edit begins here..
Having read the rest of your posts in the thread since you tried to take me to task, it appears that you have recovered from your fit of pique yesterday. I am please because prior to your insulting post, I know that I had not intentionally insulted you. I hope it stays that way.
BTW, when you stop by the gift shop...give 'em the keyphrase "NB's an ICEhole" they will add a 10% charge to your purchases. :devil
Pique? hehe learned a new word. From your previous post it seemed you were attacking me. Maybe I was off. It's hard to communicate effectively sometimes on the bbs or understand the communication. But yeah, I'm off my pique. It appeared to me that some folks weren't addressing the basic message and were attacking the messenger. However, then Murdr got on the subject at hand in full force and we had what I would call a great debate. No tricks no partial phrases etc. Really had me thinking. I like that. I honestly had to admit one of my statements was in error. I sure hate that. :D :D However, in the same reference it bolstered my stance. So it was kind of a good moment too.
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Probably about 7 or 8 months ago. You said wow, long drive. I think it was better than a sector drive. Nothing was really going on so I jumped into an osty and started driving.
In AW I used to jump in T34, aim it at A's spit factory, (no terrain) and go shopping for a few hours...come back, blast fargin spit factory to hell :rofl
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Getback...
I actually had a very nice phone conversation with a fellow that is in a professed "win the war" squad. After an hour (not all spent talking about this crap :D), he was able to admit that I might have a point and that he was going to start paying attention to how other folks play the game and see if what I was saying had any merit.
What I suggested was that he stop looking at the game from inside his squad and start to look at how others play. So yes, I would agree that text is a piss poor method of communication. :)
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In AW I used to jump in T34, aim it at A's spit factory, (no terrain) and go shopping for a few hours...come back, blast fargin spit factory to hell :rofl
Not sure if you ever played 1/2 time. The ST was mouse only then and you could put the plane in a spiral climb with the mouse and start typing taunts as you went up. I think it took at least 30 minutes to get to 10k in those days....in a fighter :).
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Falconwing, lets clear the air a little bit, okay?
What you found to be an insult to your squad was this statement: "There isn't a single BOP that could wake me up from a nap."
That may hurt some feelings, but it was meant to provoke some thought. First and foremost, it's a true statement. Granted, I could have said that there isn't one member of the BOPs that would survive a duel with me. So yeah, it was harsh; but it wasn't exaggeration. Nonetheless, it wasn't polite and I apologize for being rather unkind. You defended your guys and that's a good thing. That's what good leaders do.
You seem like a good guy, and fellow DFC guys who know you have told me exactly that. Being pretty good judges of character, I will gladly accept their opinions as fact. So rather than snipe at each other, let's concentrate on how we can agree. Fair enough?
I realize that you set up training sessions for your squad to duel and brawl. That's also a good thing. However, I have learned that most players will never rise above the level of competition. When average players duel average players, the winner is just a better average player. To get to a higher level, you need stiffer competition. This would be top level pilots who can spot mistakes and weaknesses and make or recommend immediate adjustments. That's where the Trainers and DFC can benefit your guys.
I'm willing to join your group in the TA anytime you want to bring them in. I can bring in other trainers and/or DFC members. Believe me, a few intense sessions will switch on lights.
First, we'll show how them exactly how outclassed they are. I know that sounds mean and even pompous, but it is essential to recognize where you are. They need that baseline. With 30 minutes of coaching, they will actually see a measurable improvement. They will become excited that they could step it up that quick. Every one of them will come away realizing that they have more potential than they ever imagined. From there, it's upward and onward. As they they improve, increments of gain will become smaller. Like a runner, getting to a 5 minute mile is attainable. Getting to 4:45 will be hard. Getting to 4:40 will be very hard. We should be able to get everyone to the 5 minute mile goal. Some will continue, working for the next level. Others will be satisfied at the 5 minute mark. However, all will be notably better for the effort.
I think it's worth the effort.
PM me if you think I can help your guys...
My regards,
Widewing
Thank you for your post...I will relay it to the guys and recommend we do this :salute
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Sorry Vudak, I didn't mean to imply your approach was amateurish. I meant that informed leaders don't stop at strategy. Logistics in AH mean taking the fundamental strategic plan and applying it specificaly via tactical choices. Which means BFM/ACM, unless your plan doesnt include enemy contact. Can't have one without the other. The large squads typically don't have what it takes to compete in "low level" tactics, in my experience. That's not a dig, it's my factual first hand report.
Nice to see Falconwing finaly see what we've been arguing so long. All it took was a bolt of lightning :D
Getback. You first mentionned those tricks saying that there was more to top level planning than to low level dogfighting tactics, and those tricks don't prove that point. Short of a megabrain in a jar, you can't really do both at the same time. You can't keep track of everything from top level to low level unless you've got disciplined chain of command and excellent comms from top to bottom, and able bodies all the way thru as well.
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Getback...
I actually had a very nice phone conversation with a fellow that is in a professed "win the war" squad. After an hour (not all spent talking about this crap :D), he was able to admit that I might have a point and that he was going to start paying attention to how other folks play the game and see if what I was saying had any merit.
What I suggested was that he stop looking at the game from inside his squad and start to look at how others play. So yes, I would agree that text is a piss poor method of communication. :)
Well that's pretty cool.
I sit back much of the time and study the game, what's going on, what country is doing what, and how are they doing it. I actually consider myself more of a fighter pilot than a landgrabber. However I enjoy both. At times I enjoy gving and buffing. But very little of the buffing.
When I return, I'm going to continue working on my fighter skills. I had been flying fairly well. Getting a little more agressive all the while. Until then I have some arduous tasks in real life. Studying for the cpa exam and finding a job.
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Sorry Vudak, I didn't mean to imply your approach was amateurish. I meant that informed leaders don't stop at strategy. Logistics in AH mean taking the fundamental strategic plan and applying it specificaly via tactical choices. Which means BFM/ACM, unless your plan doesnt include enemy contact. Can't have one without the other. The large squads typically don't have what it takes to compete in "low level" tactics, in my experience. That's not a dig, it's my factual first hand report.
Nice to see Falconwing finaly see what we've been arguing so long. All it took was a bolt of lightning :D
Getback. You first mentionned those tricks saying that there was more to top level planning than to low level dogfighting tactics, and those tricks don't prove that point. Short of a megabrain in a jar, you can't really do both at the same time. You can't keep track of everything from top level to low level unless you've got disciplined chain of command and excellent comms from top to bottom, and able bodies all the way thru as well.
I did? Show me the quote you are referring to so I can have a better understanding of what you are saying. I get a feeling it's a two parter.
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http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/index.php/topic,258518.msg3206386.html#msg3206386
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http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/index.php/topic,258518.msg3206386.html#msg3206386
Which post?
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Allow me to point out something here. I see many rooks landing multiple kills continuously. Meanwhile while they are landing all these kills Rooks are losing bases left and right. So while everyone is getting high 5s they are losing the war. Basically they are not seeing the forest for the trees.
OK, this might be a little chest thumping but it's not really meant to be. It's meant to illustrate a point.
Tonight I was flying alone (or mostly so) around the north island port on Trinity which Rooks were attacking on occasion. I landed 7 kills in my first sortie in a P-47D-11. Unfortunately I had to bug out bingo ammo just as the NOE hoard arrived. They took the port.
I re-upped in a P-47N and headed back. On my flight out we took the port back but the Rooks wanted it pretty badly. Before I left again the defending Bish had mostly dissapeared and I had five pelts. Fortunately, the Rook attack had, for the most part, dried up too but I still got three more before RTBing.
Maybe you want to chastise me for "landing kills and getting WTG's" but I felt that if I hadn't been there that port might have been lost for good (or at least until the Bish hoard NOE'd to take it back). Believe it or not but killing 15 of those guys on two sorties made a difference.
IMO having a few decent sticks around landing kills is a good thing, even for the "win the war" crowd. WhereTF where they when I was out there alone defending that base on my first sortie? Oh, that's right... they were hoarding 25:1 on a base to the south. :rolleyes:
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whether takin bases to win happens or not, there will always be furballing, and personally I think its fun to do once in awhile, i just dont like to fly 40 miles and then get shot down
-BigBOBCH
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Sorry Vudak, I didn't mean to imply your approach was amateurish. I meant that informed leaders don't stop at strategy. Logistics in AH mean taking the fundamental strategic plan and applying it specificaly via tactical choices. Which means BFM/ACM, unless your plan doesnt include enemy contact. Can't have one without the other. The large squads typically don't have what it takes to compete in "low level" tactics, in my experience. That's not a dig, it's my factual first hand report.
No worries, Moot, I knew you weren't implying that. I just took your post and used it to illustrate another topic.
While we're on the topic, another way you could look at tactical choices would be the fuel/ordinance loadouts, targets, and waypoints of the planes in your mission. I know I'm not the first to check the mission roster and find every plane loaded to the gills with all the ordinance they can carry, set to fly in one large clump to one particular airfield.
I guess I'm just trying to point out there are some better ways to try and take bases. Why would I bother? Well, I've spent hour after hour reading, dueling, flying, questioning, losing, and working, trying to get better at the flying part of my game. I'd feel a whole lot better about that work being labelled "quake-like gaming" and the like if the people saying that actually put 1/4 of the effort into their particular areas of expertise. Because right now, with the current state of the arena, furballers, duelers, and lonewolfs aren't the most deserving of that title.
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There is a lot more strategy in surviving a multi plane engagement and still effectively killing without advantage. I don't understand what the strategy is of taking a base you speak of. A 10 year old could plan an effective base capture mission with a few guys. It's pretty cut and dry: 1) Take the VH down 2) Take the town down 3) Take FHs down if you have enough men and/or no fighter cap on base 4) Run troops into the map room. How does this strategy ever change? Furballs are dynamic and always changing. Complex strategy is a must to dominate this fight properly.
The perception that the WtW guys are the 'thinkers' while the furballers are just mindless drones turning around in circles couldn't be anymore opposite.
Moot, is this the post you are referring to? Well I will go with this. I see your point. It appears I'm putting down furballers. However, he finishes the last sentence with " It couldn't be any more opposite. So I disagreed with him on base taking strategy and agreed with him on furballers (Albeit I do have some reservations on furballers just as many have on landgrabbers).
You are absolutely correct about the able bodies all the way through. Many missions include some of Bish's best fighter pilots. On most of my missions I look at the mission roster and feel a little more confident when I see certain folks in the mission. The guys who can take the town down, field ack or what ever needs taken down and almost 100% of the time succeed in their part of the mission. These able bodied souls also do much more. They see how things develop and often do much much more than whatever their task was.
I'll give you an example of a mission gone horrible wrong do to lack of able bodied souls or really lack of experience. I put up an noe mission for a base capture. Now I'm of the mindset that the best way to take a town down in a 110 is to plow through the town. If you plow through the town you may only get 3 ack on you at the most and in reality probably only one and you can easily kill that one. Also, you get a more time on target and kill more buildings. Diving on a building may only allow you enough time to take out 1 or 2 buildings while plowing through I have taken out as many as 5-7 buildings and it gets the town down faster. Only thing faster is dropping bombs. Another advantage is the full radar is not yet showing. So I tell these guys to plow through. There were 7 110s in the mission. Well yeah they plowed through and crashed into the buildings. :rofl :rofl :rofl I looked around and they were all dead! I wouldn't have thought that they would need to be told to pull up before they hit a building.