Aces High Bulletin Board
General Forums => The O' Club => Topic started by: Widewing on February 11, 2010, 07:08:28 PM
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Those were the words of a spotter at the very end of the video in the link below.
This was a factory stock Jeep Wrangler Sahara, with 70 series factory street tires (the Sahara is the most street oriented Wrangler version). The guy filming the Jeep refers to it as a TJ... TJs were discontinued after 2006. This is newest version of the Wrangler, the JK.
A $250 budget boost 2.5" lift and 35" tires would have made this even easier (the Sahara runs 32" 255/70-18 Bridgestones)
(http://www.tirerack.com/images/tires/bridgestone/bs_dueler_at_rhs_ci2_l.jpg)
This is what I run on my '08 Wrangler, in 285/70-17
(http://www.tirerack.com/images/tires/dunlop/du_rover_mt_mxt_owl_ci2_l.jpg)
Here's the video.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=W1nflfygI3M (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=W1nflfygI3M)
My regards,
Widewing
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The jeep next door has a cute emblem on it "H2 Recovery Team" :)
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The jeep next door has a cute emblem on it "H2 Recovery Team" :)
I think they come with that sticker from the factory now. Im more impressed with the ones that dont have that crap on them..
they should have a better one like
"your vehicle seats 3x what mine does, but I burn more gas!"
or
"sure yours is better in every way, but mine is a jeep"
or
"there is no way I will ever fall asleep at the wheel on the highway"
or
"I cant even hear all the wind noise over the sound of how awesome my jeep is"
I could go on :P
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Best viewed with the sound off to avoid "bubba" camera person commenting, coughing and taking a phone call during the clip. :rolleyes: :huh
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Best viewed with the sound off to avoid "bubba" camera person commenting, coughing and taking a phone call during the clip. :rolleyes: :huh
Guhuh YeeALL Nowticed Thayat Tew huh?
:D
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At the risk of getting flamed, I'll bring in a dissenting viewpoint here.
Personally I'd take a Scout, '68 Bronco, Toyota, Nissan, Mitsubishi or Isuzu over any Jeep. In fact I did, take an Isuzu that is, and I get angry when people call it a Jeep.
I got turned off on Jeep back in high school, mid-90s Wranglers (the ones with square headlights) were very, very popular there, and everytime (that's not an exaggeration) I went off-roading with them 1 or 2 broke. I saw broken 4wd driveshafts, tie rods, transfer case linkage, diff covers, shock mounts. (YES the shock mount broke, BEFORE the shock) brake failures, stuck thermostat, and all kinds of electronic engine gremlins. Meanwhile the other vehicles, Toyotas (p/u's and a 4runner), a modified Montero, a Pathfinder, an old 70's Wagoneer (OK one Jeep worked) and a couple Scouts never had any issues on those same trails.
Now I understand that the late model Wranglers probably are built to a much higher quality. But I still wouldn't take one, Jeeps have become so popular with everyone from soccer mom's and mall cruisers to hard core rock crawlers, that I couldn't. I like to be a little different, stand out and not follow the crowd.
Also, saw a new Rubicon at a dealer the other day $34,000!!!! :O are you kidding me.
For the record my off-road rig is a '99 Isuzu Rodeo, 3" lift, 32" tires, homemade rocksliders and bumper protection, LSD rear, and saving up for an ARB front locker. I will concede the Wrangler has the advantage of a solid axle front=more flex, I get front wheels hanging in the air quite often.
Used to have a '90 Bronco, 3" lift, 33" tires and Detroit lockers front and rear. Liked it (with the lockers, it could go more places then my Rodeo) but sold it, decided it was a little bigger then what I needed, plus getting 8-10 mpg was not cool.
The jeep next door has a cute emblem on it "H2 Recovery Team" :)
Yeah, the H2's really are awful.
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I hope they put those rocks back where they found them. I don't need that line sissified when I blast up it in my yota. :D
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At the risk of getting flamed, I'll bring in a dissenting viewpoint here.
Personally I'd take a Scout, '68 Bronco, Toyota, Nissan, Mitsubishi or Isuzu over any Jeep. In fact I did, take an Isuzu that is, and I get angry when people call it a Jeep.
I got turned off on Jeep back in high school, mid-90s Wranglers (the ones with square headlights) were very, very popular there, and everytime (that's not an exaggeration) I went off-roading with them 1 or 2 broke. I saw broken 4wd driveshafts, tie rods, transfer case linkage, diff covers, shock mounts. (YES the shock mount broke, BEFORE the shock) brake failures, stuck thermostat, and all kinds of electronic engine gremlins. Meanwhile the other vehicles, Toyotas (p/u's and a 4runner), a modified Montero, a Pathfinder, an old 70's Wagoneer (OK one Jeep worked) and a couple Scouts never had any issues on those same trails.
Now I understand that the late model Wranglers probably are built to a much higher quality. But I still wouldn't take one, Jeeps have become so popular with everyone from soccer mom's and mall cruisers to hard core rock crawlers, that I couldn't. I like to be a little different, stand out and not follow the crowd.
Also, saw a new Rubicon at a dealer the other day $34,000!!!! :O are you kidding me.
For the record my off-road rig is a '99 Isuzu Rodeo, 3" lift, 32" tires, homemade rocksliders and bumper protection, LSD rear, and saving up for an ARB front locker. I will concede the Wrangler has the advantage of a solid axle front=more flex, I get front wheels hanging in the air quite often.
Used to have a '90 Bronco, 3" lift, 33" tires and Detroit lockers front and rear. Liked it (with the lockers, it could go more places then my Rodeo) but sold it, decided it was a little bigger then what I needed, plus getting 8-10 mpg was not cool.
Yeah, the H2's really are awful.
My son has a Rodeo although a bit older then yours and he doesnt take it off road. Not a bad vehicle though he doesnt particularly care for it anymore. (usually when he has to have something fixed) but I love it. when he finally does decide to get a new vehicle I may just take it off his hands. It'll be handy for me to do estimates with ans use as an emergancy work vehicle when my van is in the shop.
He picked it up for like $2500 5 years ago and has probobly had to do like $2K worth of repairs since then. He moans about that but I tel him its still alot less then he would be paying if he had something brand new. And alot of the money he's had ot put into it it would have had to have done even in a newer vehicle.
Like tires, brakes, tune up. Alternator. I think the single worst things thats gone wrong is he needed a new exhaust.
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I'll state this to avoid confusion... :headscratch:
The current Jeep Wranglers are the most capable off road vehicles you can by off of a new car showroom anywhere on earth. You can spend a ton of money on whatever you like, and you may equal a stock Rubicon. Of course, the Wranglers have one of the largest aftermarkets of all cars, trucks and SUVs. A 4" lift, 35" Mud/Terrains and some additional armor puts the Jeep beyond 99% of what would try to match it.
How about the Rodeo? You need a 3" lift to run 32" tires. I'm running 33" rubber on a stock heavy duty (same as a Rubicon) suspension (32" is standard, but 33" fit without rubbing at full deflection). Specifically, 285/70-17 Mud/Terrains. I have 11" of ground clearance, likely more than your lifted Rodeo. All Wranglers have BLD (Brake Lock Differentials). While not true lockers, they mimic lockers to the point that Jeep's testing show that BLD will enable a Sport or Sahara to tackle nearly any obstacle that a Rubicon can manage. BLD requires a different driving style, more RPM less reliance on low end torque. Add the Trac-Lok rear axle (as I did) and it only enhances traction as the BLD algorithm is optimized to work best with this axle. Approach, break over and departure angles are the best on any SUV. Rodeos have independent front suspensions. Not a lot of flex and far more prone to damage. Rodeos can be built into capable off road trucks, but you have add a lot of mods and $$ just to keep up with a stock Wrangler JK.
If there was no Jeep, I'd consider a second generation Disco or a Hummer H3. However, the little Suzuki Samurai is probably the next most capable with a minimum amount of dollars in upgrades. Not much power, but you don't need much power if you have the proper gearing.
The guys over at Project-JK organize some of the most challenging off road adventures in the southwest. These guys drive seriously upgraded Jeeps. On one such trip, they were joined by stock Wranglers (2007 and later) JKs. Guess what? The stock JKs were able to negotiate these insane trails, with stock All Terrain tires to boot.
In Britain, they tested a Sahara diesel against a Land Rover Defender 90 (also a diesel). The Defender has been touted as the best off road vehicle on the planet. The D90's price tag was nearly double that of the Jeep. Test results.... The Sahara easily matched the D90 off road, and was vastly superior on the road. It would have been no contest at all if the Brits had tested a Rubicon... I don't believe Rubicons are sold in Europe.
How about some really well made, eye popping videos from Project-JK?
The Bullfrog Jeep trail.. Rated "difficult". Watch the stock Wrangler hanging in there with much modified JKs.
http://www.youtube.com/user/wayalife#p/a/f/1/aLERd3D4HCo (http://www.youtube.com/user/wayalife#p/a/f/1/aLERd3D4HCo)
More great Project-JK videos... Should start with part 2 of the Easter Moab run...
http://www.youtube.com/user/wayalife (http://www.youtube.com/user/wayalife)
(http://farm3.static.flickr.com/2755/4357888355_897f4ea452_o.jpg)
My regards,
Widewing
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My opinion:
I just didn't feel comfortable with the Jeep interior when I was looking in 2007. The FJ Cruiser gave me more room for about the same price.
Some videos of our "straight off the car lot into 4WD country". Nothing extreme mind you, I have to use this as a daily commuter/kid hauler too! :)
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-AveGcSIOpA
Short version above here>> : http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UM_vfZaqd7E
On a side note, I just forked out $954 for (4) new Bridgestone Revo 2's and a front end alignment. ((I have 56k on my Yoda)
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I haven't driven a newer Jeep. The short wheel-base makes them treacherous on ice.
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Last Tuesday I bought a 2009 Laredo with 24K miles on it. Interior is awesome, I got it just before "The blizzard of 2010"...while Baltimore City was only allowed to have emergency vechicles out...my Jeep was handling 10 inchs of powder to give my stuck buddy a ride home.
My buddy has a Chevy 2500HD
This is my second Jeep, hand a Wrangler with the "sqaure headlights" That thing would put any rodeo to shame on the trail...sorry Saggs as soon as you started comparing a Jeep to a rodeo you lost me.
BTW the new Cherokees come with a new 4x4 system that you dont have to engage, I couldnt even feel it kick in.....probably because I wasnt spinning at all :D :aok :salute
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The jeep next door has a cute emblem on it "H2 Recovery Team" :)
Unfortunately factory jeeps can't hold a candle to factory H2s. It is funny though.
Of course a jeep is much much cheaper.
Tires on my Z-71 (stock no lift) BF Goodrich KM2's 305 70R16
(http://i134.photobucket.com/albums/q96/Shuff_photos/bfg_mudterrain_ta_km2_ci2_l.jpg).
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Personally I'd take a Scout, '68 Bronco, Toyota, Nissan, Mitsubishi or Isuzu over any Jeep.
Im not an offroader but I had a 91 Cherokee for years - ran it well past the point where the odometer stopped working. Have a 99 Grand now. More capable but not as much fun. Either way - they were/are daily drivers for me.
That 91, I miss. So far as my experience dictated, that old 4.0L six-pot and cockroaches are the only two things that would survive a nuclear holocaust. The car was a tank.
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Unfortunately factory jeeps can't hold a candle to factory H2s. It is funny though.
You're kidding, right?
We use stuck H2s as trail markers for the bypass.
My regards,
Widewing
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You all seem to have missed my point, I never said Jeeps were not capable off-road. Basically Jeeps are great off-road it you don't mind
a) breaking down frequently, if you buy and older one, or if you buy a new one
b) spending WAAAYYY to much $$$, again $34,000 for a Rubicon is just ridiculous. and
c) fitting in with the crowd.
In defense of my Rodeo, when car shopping several years ago I considered the following vehicles, all several years old
Toyota 4runner- Liked them, but resale price was way to high, several thousand more them anything else.
Nissan Xterra- Liked them as well, loved the interior of them, couldn't find any old enough to fit my budget.
Jeep Cherokee- Didn't like them 2 outa 3 of I looked at the doors wouldn't close properly, I found out this is due to the unibody construction, basically once you flex one out your doors will never close right again. I also don't completely trust the Chrysler drivetrain. I've seen Toyotas, Nissans, and Isuzus with 300k + miles, I don't think Chrysler engineering is that good.
Rodeo- Fit my budget, like the interior as well, (though not as much as the Xterra) and Isuzu is well known for making dead-nuts reliable engines. Just look at how many Isuzu NPR diesels are running deliveries and cargo for hours on end everyday in all kinds of traffic. I am pleased with it, its got 140k on the odometer 60k of which I put on. I fully expect it to go to 250k at least. I am rougher then most SUV owners on it, (have the dents to prove it) and it has proven %100 reliable so far.
This is my second Jeep, hand a Wrangler with the "sqaure headlights" That thing would put any rodeo to shame on the trail...sorry Saggs as soon as you started comparing a Jeep to a rodeo you lost me.
BTW the new Cherokees come with a new 4x4 system that you dont have to engage, I couldnt even feel it kick in.....probably because I wasnt spinning at all :D :aok :salute
I wasn't comparing Wranglers to Rodeos, they are a completely different vehicle class. The direct comparison would be Rodeo to Cherokee. Keep in mind they haven't sold the Rodeo in the US since 2004, so we're comparing older models.
Here's my take:
Suspension- Cherokee wins due to solid axle front
Clearance- Tie, both about the same when stock
Approach/Departure angles- Tie look the same to me.
4WD System- Honestly don't know, did the '99 Cherokees come with factory LSD? Where lockers an option?
Comfort- Rodeo wins due to roomier back seats.
Utility- I think the Rodeo has more cargo space, especially with the spare on the tailgate.
Reliability- Gotta go to Isuzu over Chrysler
Aftermarket- Cherokee, Jeep does have a much bigger aftermarket for parts.
Interior- It's subjective, but I prefer the Rodeos
But I dock the Cherokee 1pt. for the unibody construction, and 1pt just for being a Jeep. :D
Comparing stock to stock, I would say they are pretty equal in off-road capabilities.
The short wheelbase Isuzu Amigo, or Rodeo Sport would be a more accurate comparison to a Wrangler. Like I said earlier, my experience with the square headlight Wranglers was that they are horribly unreliable.
I realize most Rodeos you see are just mall crawlers, but so are most Jeeps.
Check this out for some Isuzus that definitely aren't mall crawlers.
http://forum.planetisuzoo.com/modules.php?set_albumName=album43&op=modload&name=gallery&file=index&include=view_album.php
I loooove riling up Jeep owners. :devil But don't take it to seriously, I could care less what people wheel in as long as their having fun. My buddy use to try and go off-road in a 1978 2wd Ford Courier p/u, never got very far, but had a ton of fun. I'm just not a Jeep fan, for those who are, carry on flaming me, trust me I'm used to Jeeps I pass on the trails looking down their noses at me. But I get to the end of the trail just as often as those Jeeps I pass.
The other thing nobodies brought up yet is driver talent. An experience off-road driver can get a lot more places in any rig, then a beginner. Example; This fall I drove up the final, very steep 1/2 mile to a local peak. I passed 2 Jeeps, (a Wrangler and Grand Cherokee) at the base of it, they didn't dare attempt it. There were two rock steps of about 18" to get over, then is was just very steep, loose rock to the top. I'm sure both those Jeeps could have made it up there, just as well as I did. But the drivers didn't have enough confidence/skill to attempt it, they were smart not to, if they had panicked and gotten sideways on that hill, they could have rolled a long ways.
My point is that driver skill/knowledge/confidence is a very big factor in off-road capabilities, as well as the rig your in.
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You're kidding, right?
We use stuck H2s as trail markers for the bypass.
My regards,
Widewing
I %100 agree with you there Widewing, H2s= Looks over function.
BTW Widewing, don't take my rants personal, I agree with you stock Wranglers are probably the most capable out of the factory, (either that or an H3, or possibly a D90 if your not into rock-crawling). I just have this thing about being different, which is mostly why I'd never get a Jeep. Also Wranglers are to small for me utility wise, but for pure off-road I agree their very good... ... ... till they break down :P :P
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FWIW, we go 4-wheeling with Jeep groups too. There is gentle ribbing on "Those Toyota guys" vs "Those Jeep guys" but we all share an interest in getting together for trail rides. That's what counts, not what you drive.
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FWIW, we go 4-wheeling with Jeep groups too. There is gentle ribbing on "Those Toyota guys" vs "Those Jeep guys" but we all share an interest in getting together for trail rides. That's what counts, not what you drive.
Agreed, like I said as long as YOUR having fun in a responsive manner, who cares what anyone else thinks.
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jeep wranglers start at $21,000.
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Agreed, like I said as long as YOU'RE having fun in a responsive manner, who cares what anyone else thinks.
Fixed. (Sorry, someone just corrected MY spelling in another thread, so I had to repay someone! :p )
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Any 4x4 can go the same places as the others, its all up to the driver behind the wheel as to "where" a 4X4 can go, most 4x4 owners simply have them for a safer feeling in extreme weather conditions (peace of mind) but still manage to crash them, they dont really know how to drive one they think well its a 4x4 i can go anywhere, lol flatlanders lol Most of the people i go with we all have a variety of trucks and jeeps, we pack winches, Hi-Jacks, you name it im sure one of us brought it, We all get stuck from time to time thats the fun of 4 wheeling, but we also keep it safe and respect the surroundings and remember pack out what you packed in, ive seen to much trash being left, most of the time we end up bringing out alot of trash from just cleaning up as were 4 wheeling out.
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jeep wranglers start at $21,000.
So what do you get in the Rubicon, that's worth $13,000 more then a base model Wrangler?
Wouldn't it be a lot cheaper to buy a basic Wrangler then upgrade it?
Fixed. (Sorry, someone just corrected MY spelling in another thread, so I had to repay someone! :p )
Dangit, I suck at proof reading. That was supposed to say responsible too, not responsive.
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The other thing nobodies brought up yet is driver talent. An experience off-road driver can get a lot more places in any rig, then a beginner. Example; This fall I drove up the final, very steep 1/2 mile to a local peak. I passed 2 Jeeps, (a Wrangler and Grand Cherokee) at the base of it, they didn't dare attempt it. There were two rock steps of about 18" to get over, then is was just very steep, loose rock to the top. I'm sure both those Jeeps could have made it up there, just as well as I did. But the drivers didn't have enough confidence/skill to attempt it, they were smart not to, if they had panicked and gotten sideways on that hill, they could have rolled a long ways.
My point is that driver skill/knowledge/confidence is a very big factor in off-road capabilities, as well as the rig your in.
A very valid point.
I love my Jeep Wrangler (all of them), and I love breaking the balls of the H3, Toyota, Land Cruiser guys, etc but in the end, it's all in fun.
The bottom line (after sheer performance of the vehicle) is really driver skill. If you have none, you are getting into trouble. The reason is that most guys (but not all) that have any newer model 4x4 vehicles do not know how to off-road in them. I live right outside of Philly and I pulled out 3 vehicles that were stuck in the snow.. H3, Subaru Wagon, and and a VW Rabbit (old diesel style and to defend him a bit, his fuel had gelled and he was stalled) The cold hard fact of the matter is........ If you are stuck on your frame, it doesn't matter WHAT you drive, you are screwed.
I have seen it with new boat owners, too. They drive up to the dock for gas, and don't even know where their fuel tank is, they don't run the blower after getting fueled or before starting, hell they don't even know which side to dock the boat on. I've seen them tie up at a slip with a single rope (in a slip where the tide comes in and out, mind you like at the Chesapeake Bay, etc) and wonder why the the front 12' of their boat is beached in the Bay sludge.
It's uneducated folks that buy these SUV's and think they can "go anywhere " with them that is the problem. They are the same ones that think just because they have 4-wheel drive, that they can haul-ass in bad weather. Get a clue....... NO vehicle is better than any other when trying to stop on ice, brother.
We go to the NJ Pine Barrens a few times a year to go off-roading and we meet all kinds of folks on the trail. I, personally, detest the Jeep Jamboree they have there every year because they charge a few hundred $'s for something that is completely free if you went by yourself, and they are snobbish about other vehicles. In fact, we went last September and were doing a clean-up (we always pack-out more than we pack in) and we met a FJ Cruiser club that had brought a landscape trailer that we filled (completely) with trash. They were very nice to us, and weren't snobbish about us having Jeep's. They even asked if we wanted to run the trails with them when we were finished the clean-up. You don;t see too many Jeep groups doing that.
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Man, your bias is showing.....when buying my cherokee I tested the backseats for how comfortable it was....Im 6'3" sitting behind the seat I made comfortable for me in the driver seat and I fit perfectly fine. The trunk is match only by a suburban..... :aok
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Man, your bias is showing.....when buying my cherokee I tested the backseats for how comfortable it was....Im 6'3" sitting behind the seat I made comfortable for me in the driver seat and I fit perfectly fine. The trunk is match only by a suburban..... :aok
I'm 5'4" so the leg/head room is not an issue. Whatever I can't stuff into or strap onto the Wrangler goes on the hitch mounted cargo rack :aok
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The current Jeep Wranglers are the most capable off road vehicles you can by off of a new car showroom anywhere on earth.
My regards,
Widewing
Its also, for the price, probably the wors on-road vehicle on earth.
Crap gas mileage, horrible wind noise, terrible ride, ugly interior.. cant have a nice stereo, because your top will get cut and it will be stolen..
You spend over 30 grand for something that is really good at one thing, and absolutely horrid at everything else. :uhoh
and I doubt many people buy BRAND NEW jeeps with the intent of off roading exclusively.. so now youve spent over 30 grand at something that sucks at everything you will be doing with it 95% of the time.
money.... well.... spent...
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Wingnutt pretty much nailed why I didn't go with a Jeep.
Now, as far as the claim as the most capable offroad veh you can buy off a showroom floor, that's definately subject to a person's opinion. Take a look at an FJ Cruiser. Not sure about Jeeps, but a rear locker was standard on my FJ. I literally took it off the showroom floor and went 4-wheeling at Tahuya!
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Wingnutt pretty much nailed why I didn't go with a Jeep.
Now, as far as the claim as the most capable offroad veh you can buy off a showroom floor, that's definately subject to a person's opinion. Take a look at an FJ Cruiser. Not sure about Jeeps, but a rear locker was standard on my FJ. I literally took it off the showroom floor and went 4-wheeling at Tahuya!
I have a 4 door Tacoma long bed, Its quiet on the road, nice smooth ride seats 4 comfortably, can tow my 28' travel trailer, does not leak, creak, squeek, ive driven it off road plenty at the beach and other places to launch my kayaks, ive never been stuck, if I do I have a detachable winch that I can plug into either the rear reciever hitch, or the front tow mount.. thingy.. so im not getting stuck.
I bought it with 59K miles for 18K and and over the next 5 years it will probably have fewer maintenance problems and less shop time than a jeep purchased new at the same time.
assuming the accelerator doesent get stuck and shoot me off a cliff OHH!!! :bolt:
EDIT: for the record, I DO like jeeps, i really wish I could find a good quality 50s army surplus one for hunting. But as far as for a daily driver, I think they are a waste of money 1 trick pony.
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Nice FJ Rip, i was looking at one but went with the F150 FX4 Triton powerplant, Just needed the Truck more for pulling the MasterCraft and Camping gear, was the pics of your FJ taken at lake Tapps? I used to live there and man it looks like the Lake during the winter there.
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Nice FJ Rip, i was looking at one but went with the F150 FX4 Triton powerplant, Just needed the Truck more for pulling the MasterCraft and Camping gear, was the pics of your FJ taken at lake Tapps? I used to live there and man it looks like the Lake during the winter there.
Yes, my pics are from Lake Tapps. They still drain the lake down but not until November now. And they refill it earlier, like in April. I still wouldn't live on the lake though, taxes are insane and your view of the "tree stumps" is not worth the winter wait. I live across the street and my taxes are 60% less than those living on the lake. :) Granted, I have to drive 1 mile to launch my boat, but I'll take that inconvenience over taxes.
I'd still have my F250 HD 4x4 if I didn't go and buy my motorhome. I have a trailer that I tow behind the FJ for "truck duty" such as yard waste, etc. The FJ tows our 21 ft boat just fine.
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:rock :rock :rock
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I agree wranglers arent the best "on-road" vechicles....but the Cherokee on the other hand, smooth cruising :rock
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Unfortunately factory jeeps can't hold a candle to factory H2s. It is funny though.
Of course a jeep is much much cheaper.
Tires on my Z-71 (stock no lift) BF Goodrich KM2's 305 70R16
(http://i134.photobucket.com/albums/q96/Shuff_photos/bfg_mudterrain_ta_km2_ci2_l.jpg)
H2's are horrible off road. A member of my off-road club has one on H1 wheels/tires. In the last 5 years, he's spent $20,000+ fixing it. The most common issue? Front wheels go "snap" and skiing them out.
BTW, the Early Bronco is the best Off Road Vehicle ever put into production. It had the Perfect Drivetrain & Perfect Wheelbase.
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Its also, for the price, probably the wors on-road vehicle on earth.
Crap gas mileage, horrible wind noise, terrible ride, ugly interior.. cant have a nice stereo, because your top will get cut and it will be stolen..
You spend over 30 grand for something that is really good at one thing, and absolutely horrid at everything else. :uhoh
and I doubt many people buy BRAND NEW jeeps with the intent of off roading exclusively.. so now youve spent over 30 grand at something that sucks at everything you will be doing with it 95% of the time.
money.... well.... spent...
I suggest that you go ahead and road test a new Unlimited... You'll be shocked. Compared to the earlier YJ and TJ, the JK is a Cadillac.
My regards,
Widewing
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H2's are horrible off road. A member of my off-road club has one on H1 wheels/tires. In the last 5 years, he's spent $20,000+ fixing it. The most common issue? Front wheels go "snap" and skiing them out.
BTW, the Early Bronco is the best Off Road Vehicle ever put into production. It had the Perfect Drivetrain & Perfect Wheelbase.
mannnn....i WISH that dude lived here near my shop in nj.
:rofl :noid
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Its also, for the price, probably the worst on-road vehicle on earth.
Crap gas mileage, horrible wind noise, terrible ride, ugly interior.. cant have a nice stereo, because your top will get cut and it will be stolen..
You spend over 30 grand for something that is really good at one thing, and absolutely horrid at everything else. :uhoh
and I doubt many people buy BRAND NEW jeeps with the intent of off roading exclusively.. so now youve spent over 30 grand at something that sucks at everything you will be doing with it 95% of the time.
money.... well.... spent...
Not much I can do about gas milage except keep my foot out of the pedal, but in all honestly, it doesn't do much worse than my father's Dakota on the highway (it almost matches it without the doors on, and the parachute not on the top)
I like the wind noise. When the temp gets over 45-50 deg, F., the top and doors are coming off. In fact, the doors come off for good in May and I don't even look for them until about the end of September, or so. The wind noise is also very effective at cutting down the SWMBO chatter/ack.
My latest Wrangler is a 2006, which has coil spring suspension, as opposed to the old school leaf springs, so it's not the rough ride experienced in the "old days". It tracks well on the highway and does not give the fatigue in a long distance trip as the older models did. I drive it to the Chesapeake Bay area (I'm in Philly) at least 5-6 times during the summer, and I took it to Pittsburgh last May for the Penguins Stanley Cup parade with no issues. It's not a Cadillac, and I won't try to say it drives like one, but the newer models are way better. If I wanted a smooth ride, I wouldn't have bought it.
I didn't buy it for the interior either (which is usually speckled with mud of some kind anyway and is easy to clean because it is all vinyl) I will be getting neoprene (or equivalent) seat covers however, for the times that I forget /too lazy to put up the top, or am surprised with a n unexpected rain shower. The current Hefty(tm) seat covers aren't very stylish.
There are plenty of sources for a locking console to mount an aftermarket stereo in). I normally do not leave anything of value in the Wrangler to begin with, but if I do, it goes in the locked console) I have also gone so far as to put a sign on the dash. It reads....."There is nothing of value inside this vehicle, and it is not locked. Please feel free to open the doors (if they are still on the vehicle) and have a look around. There is also no need to cut holes in the vinyl top (if it is, in fact, still up) to gain access to the interior.... Thank You. " There is also the option of getting the hard top.
I spent < $20,000 on mine (used) from CarSense http://www.carsense.com which included the extended warranty that lasts for 5years/100,000 miles and covers damn near everything except consumables such as brakes, lights, etc. The dealer (in partnership/cooperation with Quaker State Oil) also offers a lifetime engine warranty (all parts that come in contact with oil) as long as I have the oil changed at a certified garage and use Quaker State oil (provided I keep the receipts) It is a 2006 Sport Model which pretty much has everything that a Rubicon has (including the same rear(s) ), except a few amenities and automatic lockers (which suck in the snow, anyhow) This (with the eventual upgrades I have planned) will probably be the last vehicle I purchase for myself for 20 years.
I have owned two other Wranglers in the past, and routinely beat the living tar out of them. Every repair becomes an upgrade, anyhow (stronger axles, better driveshaft, etc) The first was a 79 CJ which the tub had rotted into oblivion and I sold it to a guy that was going to make it a competition crawler. The second was a 97' Wrangler which was still in pretty good shape when I got rid of it. The only reason I broke down and bought this one is because it was the last year for the "straight 6" 4.0 liter (which, as someone has mentioned, is all but bulletproof), and I'm not too keen on the new "V" 6's as they have not been in use as long as the in-line 6's, but that's another conversation altogether. In fact, the best engine I have seen in a Wrangler is a Cumming's Diesel that someone had shoehorned into it (talk about some torque :) )
Bottom line is that a Jeep Wrangler NOT a "comfort" vehicle, nor is it marketed as one. It is a vehicle for the more adventurous type that doesn't mind a little mud/wind/water on the skin. It is a a vehicle of function more than form and , as such, does not come with most of the creature comforts that other SUV's may have.
There is not a lot of head/leg room (I am short, so I don't care)
There is not a lot of cargo space ( but you would be surprised at what can be strapped on the roll bars) and what doesn't fit inside goes on the cargo rack.
It's loud. ( I can deal with it being that the trade's is being more "in" the environment as opposed to being shutoff from it.
It's slow and a bit bumpy (I can't go fast or ride "on air", but I can go damn near anywhere I please, when I please to do it)
There are security risks, but locks only keep honest people out, anyway (besides, if I needed to hear loud music, I'd fire up one of my 3000W PA systems that I use for my DJ Busines) If you need to steal the axe strapped to the front or the shovel strapped on the back, you probably need it more than I do.
If a Wrangler is "more capable from the showroom floor" as Widewing has stated is a matter of statistics and testing. Whether my Wrangler is "better" than another vehicle is a matter of total opinion.
I love my Wrangler, my kids love my wrangler (to the extent that if I lend it out to a friend for a joy ride and they wash it first for their SWMBO, they, including my daughter, call said friend a wimpy girl), and my wife loves my Wrangler (especially in this crappy snow we have been having).
So............... no matter what anyone's opinion is, the OP hit the nail right on the head.....
There is nothing else like it.. :)
O|||||||O
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it's all a matter of taste.
i liked my mustang. it was obnoxiously loud, stupidly fast, and made no sense whatsoever to have it on the street here in nj.
but i loved it. miss that car too.
drive whatcha like, and don't worry 'bout the other guy.
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Another factor: Side impacts are the most dangerous type of crashes.
In these videos, it clearly shows who the winner is:
Jeep Wrangler:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EzBKdX0qMKw
FJ Cruiser:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YtZbofbG2jw
Jeep gets a rating of MARGINAL.
FJ gets a top rating of GOOD.
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I would take an H-1 uparmoured, with the DillonAero 7.62 minigun. Just my choice for off roading, that way you can hunt pigs while you are at it.
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You're kidding, right?
We use stuck H2s as trail markers for the bypass.
My regards,
Widewing
Nope.
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H2's are horrible off road. A member of my off-road club has one on H1 wheels/tires. In the last 5 years, he's spent $20,000+ fixing it. The most common issue? Front wheels go "snap" and skiing them out.
BTW, the Early Bronco is the best Off Road Vehicle ever put into production. It had the Perfect Drivetrain & Perfect Wheelbase.
Your friend obviously messed his up.
I used to think they were just glorified chevys.... I was wrong.
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Nope.
Massive weight. Weak IFS. Inferior articulation. Miserable outward vision. No locking differentials (go to aftermarket, spend big $$). Insufficient ground clearance. Inferior approach, break over and departure angles. Crappy OEM tires. Weak tie rod ends (seen several snap on moderate obstacles).
Seriously, I can drive my JK places you would have to airlift an H2 into.
Now, the H3 is another matter. You can order a very capable H3. Unfortunately, for 10 grand more than a Rubicon. It still lacks adequate articulation and the front end is too weak for severe service. Outward vision is as bad a the H2. A drawback common the FJ Cruiser as well. Tires are just All Terrains, while the Rubicon comes with KM2s standard. I found the BFGs to be terrible in snow, so I bought Hankooks and Dunlaps. The latter get much better grip on packed snow than the BFGs. However, I elected to run a 32" winter rated tire until spring.
Stock H2s do fine on trails rated 2 and 3. They start to struggle on 4 rated trails, and have great difficulty on 5 rated. A stock Wrangler X/Sport can run 6 and 7 rated trails without much drama (did you watch the videos?). Of course, driver skill or the lack of counts too.
GM did not build the H2 to compete with Wranglers. They try to do so with the H3, but magazine tests show they fell short. This is why they designed a Hummer that they thought could compete. That looks to have died when GM sold off Hummer to the Chinese.
There's absolutely nothing wrong with liking the H2 or H3. They have their niche. That niche, however, isn't going where Rubicons go without a great deal of expensive upgrading. They offer more comfort, better on-road handling, greater quiet and a number of other day to day use advantages. Wranglers are as much a life style as anything else. As the cliche states; "it's a Jeep thing, you wouldn't understand."
My regards,
Widewing
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Jeeps are one of those vehicles that will surprise you. I have
a 2006 tj 65th anniversary edition. It's really an x model with
fenders painted to match the body and a dual top. Put a 4" long
arm lift, sye kit, 33" bfg mt's, and some herculiner on it. This thing
goes anywhere and when it gets stuck it's still fun getting it out.
The wife drives a 2007 sahara unlimited with dick cepeck crushers.
We are looking at the different lifts now that I have the green light
to lift it. I still like the feel of the tj seats over the jk seats. Even with
both kinds wrapped in neoprene mine feel better.
If you are thinking of snorkeling a tj I highly recommend it. You get
better throttle control and a bit (small) boost in power.
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i've driven jeeps..........and to be honest, i don't find anything remotely impressive about them.
just sayin.........
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i've driven jeeps..........and to be honest, i don't find anything remotely impressive about them.
just sayin.........
Your completely full of it
just sayin......
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I have owned two other Wranglers in the past, and routinely beat the living tar out of them. Every repair becomes an upgrade, anyhow (stronger axles, better driveshaft, etc) The first was a 79 CJ which the tub had rotted into oblivion and I sold it to a guy that was going to make it a competition crawler. The second was a 97' Wrangler which was still in pretty good shape when I got rid of it. The only reason I broke down and bought this one is because it was the last year for the "straight 6" 4.0 liter (which, as someone has mentioned, is all but bulletproof), and I'm not too keen on the new "V" 6's as they have not been in use as long as the in-line 6's, but that's another conversation altogether. In fact, the best engine I have seen in a Wrangler is a Cumming's Diesel that someone had shoehorned into it (talk about some torque :) )
Bottom line is that a Jeep Wrangler NOT a "comfort" vehicle, nor is it marketed as one. It is a vehicle for the more adventurous type that doesn't mind a little mud/wind/water on the skin. It is a a vehicle of function more than form and , as such, does not come with most of the creature comforts that other SUV's may have.
There is not a lot of head/leg room (I am short, so I don't care)
There is not a lot of cargo space ( but you would be surprised at what can be strapped on the roll bars) and what doesn't fit inside goes on the cargo rack.
It's loud. ( I can deal with it being that the trade's is being more "in" the environment as opposed to being shutoff from it.
It's slow and a bit bumpy (I can't go fast or ride "on air", but I can go damn near anywhere I please, when I please to do it)
There are security risks, but locks only keep honest people out, anyway (besides, if I needed to hear loud music, I'd fire up one of my 3000W PA systems that I use for my DJ Busines) If you need to steal the axe strapped to the front or the shovel strapped on the back, you probably need it more than I do.
If a Wrangler is "more capable from the showroom floor" as Widewing has stated is a matter of statistics and testing. Whether my Wrangler is "better" than another vehicle is a matter of total opinion.
I love my Wrangler, my kids love my wrangler (to the extent that if I lend it out to a friend for a joy ride and they wash it first for their SWMBO, they, including my daughter, call said friend a wimpy girl), and my wife loves my Wrangler (especially in this crappy snow we have been having).
So............... no matter what anyone's opinion is, the OP hit the nail right on the head.....
There is nothing else like it.. :)
O|||||||O
2011 will introduce the Pentastar V6 with more than 300 hp. The current V6 is a reworked version of the 3.8 in the Caravan. It's pretty much bulletproof. There are some reputable companies doing Hemi conversions, with Chrysler factory warranty.
Head room? Drop the top!
Storage? There's just me and the wife. The rear seat folds with a fingertip, or comes out completely in 10 seconds. I bought a storage rack that mounts on the spare tire carrier. Haven't installed it yet. I found the best rack system around for high lift jacks and shovels. I use an Allen spare tire mount bike rack. Holds the high lift and two spades. Pops on and off in about 30 seconds and fits on a 12.5" section tire. Oh yeah, it holds three mountain bikes too. ;) We've strapped a Kayak and two boogie boards to the roll cage.
Gas mileage... Here's where the JKs shine compared to the TJs. I get 17+ mpg around town, 25+ mpg on the highway (hardtop on and buttoned up). That's the big advantage of the V6.
As to my JK, I've not had a single problem with it in 18 months of ownership. Completely reliable.
Upgrades are minor. 33" Dunlop Rover MT Maxx Traction tires on 17x8 Black Rocks. TeraFlex wheel spacers. Olympic 4x4 rock sliders. Skid Row Off Road armor for the steering gear and evap canister. Heavy duty dif covers. Rugged Ridge steering stabilizer. Mirror relocation kit. Fire bottle. EMT type trauma kit. Dune pennant. CB radio. Recovery hooks. Recovery kit. High lift jack and so on.... No lift kit... Don't plan on rock crawling. I got that out of my system with the CJ-5 and the YJ.
One little detail that makes the Jeep easy to own... A lifetime bumper to bumper warranty. As long as I own it, everything covered by the 3/36 is covered forever.
Finally, one thing that is rather astounding. According to Kelly Blue Book, my JK is worth $700 more than I paid for it (I negotiated $4k under sticker with the rebate) in August of '08. An '08 Hummer H2 with the same mileage depreciates 30% from its purchase price, even with the $2500 rebate offered then.
Right now, especially where I live, the demand for 2 dr JKs exceeds the supply. My dealer offered me $22k on trade if I wanted a 2010 Unlimited. I don't want one. They would mark it up $2k to $3k and sell it within a couple of days. I saw a low mileage 2006 LJ on their lot priced at $19,500. It was gone within a week.
My brother drives a 2005 LJ, one nephew owns a 2003 TJ his brother drives a 2001 Cherokee. We also have my wife's 2009 Suzuki Grand Vitara, which has proven itself driving through 2 feet of snow. Center locking differential does a nice job of supplying torque to each wheel. With only 8" of ground clearance, its no rock crawler. It is, however, perfect for snow or the beach and far more stout than the soft-roader compact SUVs (really just cross overs).
My regards,
Widewing
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Your completely full of it
just sayin......
:rofl :rofl :rofl
trust me i have..............remember, i fix the dam things? along with pretty much anything that rolls into my bays?
i gotta admit.....this thread is making me miss my 1970 chevy c-10. had dana locker in the rear, dana limited slip in the front, 4.10 gears, 4"body lift, 4" suspension lift, 36" bfg radail all terrains, 4 speed with "granny gear" first, and a slightly warmed over small block 400(the engine ran low 12's in a buddy's camaro)
trust me when i tell you that there was no jeep around here that could go somewhere that i couldn't.
now, that said, a good friend(the dude with the 2 vipers) has an 06 grand cherokee.....and he does love it. he beats the snot outta that thing......had it sunk once, had to winch himself out of a gully during the last snowstorm............
it's all personal preference.
oo....before anyone throws the price thing.....i had paid 4k for that chevy. and man o man did i get my moneys worth out of it. :devil
i'll take a chevy anyday......till ford can build something to match em.
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i've driven jeeps..........and to be honest, i don't find anything remotely impressive about them.
just sayin.........
Well, that's kinda like judging an airplane based upon how it feels when being taxied. Ya gotta fly it!! ;)
My regards,
Widewing
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Tomorrow morning my jeep gets a good high-way test......7 hours from MD to Ft.Drum
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Your friend obviously messed his up.
I used to think they were just glorified chevys.... I was wrong.
They are not only one of the most problematic/recalled vehicles in History, they are beefed up Yukon/tahoes and not that much better.
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Jeeps are one of those vehicles that will surprise you.
You've got that right! Like when you're driving down the road and suddenly you're facing the other direction.
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Tomorrow morning my jeep gets a good high-way test......7 hours from MD to Ft.Drum
Pit stop in Philly? :D
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You've got that right! Like when you're driving down the road and suddenly you're facing the other direction.
to me they always feel like they want to fall over......or like a good gust of wind will blow them over
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In my dad's Wrangler, the cold air leaking around the winshied would get into a duel with the defroster (which had to be left on high at all times for any effect), creating a subtropical depression in the back seat. The resulting tsunamis would lap against my frozen feet from under the seat.
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Pit stop in Philly? :D
Dude should have said something earlier!!!
Im at Ft.Drum right now.....Jeep drove great, spent $60 in gas for a 7 hour trip....not bad for an SUV and I still got 3/4 of a tank. I was driving like 85 MPH all the way up I-81N......didnt see Cops till New York......PA yall suck :devil :salute
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Be real careful with your softtop Wranglers out there guys. :frown:
"appeared to have a seatbelt on, but the Wrangler's soft canvas top offered little protection during the rollover, and she was killed instantly, troopers said.[/i]
http://www.wptv.com/mostpopular/story/Bethannie-Nothnagle-turnpike-accident-sawgrass-rol/pEY57rTNJUu1WHPB9rVqvQ.cspx
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Be real careful with your softtop Wranglers out there guys. :frown:
"appeared to have a seatbelt on, but the Wrangler's soft canvas top offered little protection during the rollover, and she was killed instantly, troopers said.[/i]
http://www.wptv.com/mostpopular/story/Bethannie-Nothnagle-turnpike-accident-sawgrass-rol/pEY57rTNJUu1WHPB9rVqvQ.cspx
Yep, they aren't tied to the frame as most would like to think. Even worse are the ones who "grab the sport bar" on a trail. That is a bad habit to start with. When a vehicle rolls and your hand is on it, you're losing it.
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Be real careful with your softtop Wranglers out there guys. :frown:
"appeared to have a seatbelt on, but the Wrangler's soft canvas top offered little protection during the rollover, and she was killed instantly, troopers said.[/i]
http://www.wptv.com/mostpopular/story/Bethannie-Nothnagle-turnpike-accident-sawgrass-rol/pEY57rTNJUu1WHPB9rVqvQ.cspx
Alot of service people lose their lives due to roll overs in up armored humvees, this isnt the vechicles fault that it gets put on its roof like a turtle.....its the drivers, in most cases :salute
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some of these things have a fairly high cg, making them easier to roll.........
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some of these things have a fairly high cg, making them easier to roll.........
Wranglers dont have a roof, probably giving them a lower CG then say...SUVs
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junky where you at? we could catch a brew at the uglystick
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Well, that's kinda like judging an airplane based upon how it feels when being taxied. Ya gotta fly it!! ;)
I wonder what is the first thing that test pilots do when handed an aircraft?
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junky where you at? we could catch a brew at the uglystick
Im on Ft Drum bro, I think Ive heard of the uglystick(bar?) sounds familiar...I havnt been out around town yet I dont know where crap is :D
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Be real careful with your softtop Wranglers out there guys. :frown:
"appeared to have a seatbelt on, but the Wrangler's soft canvas top offered little protection during the rollover, and she was killed instantly, troopers said.[/i]
http://www.wptv.com/mostpopular/story/Bethannie-Nothnagle-turnpike-accident-sawgrass-rol/pEY57rTNJUu1WHPB9rVqvQ.cspx
A Wrangler's sport bar is designed for low speed roll overs on the trail. In that regard, it works well. At highway speeds, not as well. You can buy a reinforcement kit that really strengthens the cage quite a bit, or you can buy a replacement cage that welds in. Like any convertible, there's an element of risk.
I had a welded roll cage in my CJ-5. It was extremely stout.
Toyotas make me nervous, especially a late model Prius tailgating me...
(http://farm5.static.flickr.com/4064/4386230432_d902bed5b2_o.jpg)
My regards,
Widewing
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:rofl :rofl :rofl
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:lol
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:rofl
The only problem is that the FJ Cruiser didn't have the sticky gas pedal problem. Wish they did, I could get out of any future speeding tickets!
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Just recently I purchased a 1965 Kaiser JEEP CJ-5, and I am finding the world of JEEP ownership to be a very fun time. If you do not have a JEEP then you should go find one as soon as possible! :aok
:bolt:
Todd
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Just recently I purchased a 1965 Kaiser JEEP CJ-5, and I am finding the world of JEEP ownership to be a very fun time. If you do not have a JEEP then you should go find one as soon as possible! :aok
:bolt:
Todd
if i ever decide to build or own another 4x4 or off roader, i'll stick to somethng i know, and know i can trust.......a chevy. :aok
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if i ever decide to build or own another 4x4 or off roader, i'll stick to somethng i know, and know i can trust.......a chevy. :aok
Personally, of all the 4x4's I've owned, I've never owned a Chevy truck. 3 Fords and a International Harverster Scout. The Scout out ran the Fords in the Montana back country easily. My step brothers Chevy got stuck alot. :neener:
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if i ever decide to build or own another 4x4 or off roader, i'll stick to somethng i know, and know i can trust.......a chevy. :aok
I like Chevys but what model would you be setting up? Most of them are way too long to be a good offroad vechicle unless you go to the extreme with it.
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68 thru 70 Chev K5 Blazer its a good looking blazer to, the wheelbase isnt to long ( compared to a truck) and its a stable off roader, take the top off customize your frame mounted 8point rollbar and put the top back on or just leave it off, HiPo SB chevy with a manual tranny, locker gears and its a beast off road
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I like Chevys but what model would you be setting up? Most of them are way too long to be a good offroad vechicle unless you go to the extreme with it.
my 1970 4x4 was a c-10. dana rears in both ends. limited slip in the front, locker in the rear. 400 smallblock, with a 4 speed manual, creeper gear 1st. 4" suspension lift, 4" body lift, 36x12.5 bfg radial atx(i think that was the model. the air worked perfectly, am/fm cassette, and had a nice snow plow set up for her.
i used to take her to the cranberry bogs off of rt 206 in nj, little mill road.......she never got stuck on me, and no one ever went somewhere where i couldn't take her. sometimes there was brush, and branches dragging down the sides, but one expects that in the woods.
i miss that truck.
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Personally, of all the 4x4's I've owned, I've never owned a Chevy truck. 3 Fords and a International Harverster Scout. The Scout out ran the Fords in the Montana back country easily. My step brothers Chevy got stuck alot. :neener:
he probably had the stock open rears in it? i never had a scout....only ever had fords n chevys. the only ford i had was my 79 f150, all stock, and she used to get stuck plowing,........but she had open rears at both ends too.
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he probably had the stock open rears in it? i never had a scout....only ever had fords n chevys. the only ford i had was my 79 f150, all stock, and she used to get stuck plowing,........but she had open rears at both ends too.
I believe every 4wd vehicle should come with locking diffs, or some kind of limited slip at least. Otherwise 4x4 is still only 2x4 when it matters most.
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he probably had the stock open rears in it? i never had a scout....only ever had fords n chevys. the only ford i had was my 79 f150, all stock, and she used to get stuck plowing,........but she had open rears at both ends too.
Pffft Try an 84 Bronco with lockers front and rear, a 460, a fairbanks C6 and cut fenders to fit 35" BF mud TAs. :t
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My dads friend had a K5 on 35'' tires(I dont know about anything else) but we were on a trip and took it on the ORV trail by little orleans on the potomac river. Thing was a beast in the mud. Honestly when you said chevy I was thinking trucks because they do make the best pick ups in the world :rock
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Keep in mind that those old trails that are hard to access are called " JEEP trails " for a reason.
Todd
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I believe every 4wd vehicle should come with locking diffs, or some kind of limited slip at least. Otherwise 4x4 is still only 2x4 when it matters most.
One nice feature about my FJ Cruiser is the fact that it has a locking rear differential. It would be nice to add a front locker, but I don't use it for extreme offroad like rock climbing. It's also a daily kid hauler so I have to be careful not to break it on the trail. ;) Gotta love the 21" of wheel articulation though!
(http://pic100.picturetrail.com/VOL767/2726312/21767624/376457484.jpg)
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I'll state this to avoid confusion... :headscratch:
The current Jeep Wranglers are the most capable off road vehicles you can by off of a new car showroom anywhere on earth. You can spend a ton of money on whatever you like, and you may equal a stock Rubicon. Of course, the Wranglers have one of the largest aftermarkets of all cars, trucks and SUVs. A 4" lift, 35" Mud/Terrains and some additional armor puts the Jeep beyond 99% of what would try to match it.
How about the Rodeo? You need a 3" lift to run 32" tires. I'm running 33" rubber on a stock heavy duty (same as a Rubicon) suspension (32" is standard, but 33" fit without rubbing at full deflection). Specifically, 285/70-17 Mud/Terrains. I have 11" of ground clearance, likely more than your lifted Rodeo. All Wranglers have BLD (Brake Lock Differentials). While not true lockers, they mimic lockers to the point that Jeep's testing show that BLD will enable a Sport or Sahara to tackle nearly any obstacle that a Rubicon can manage. BLD requires a different driving style, more RPM less reliance on low end torque. Add the Trac-Lok rear axle (as I did) and it only enhances traction as the BLD algorithm is optimized to work best with this axle. Approach, break over and departure angles are the best on any SUV. Rodeos have independent front suspensions. Not a lot of flex and far more prone to damage. Rodeos can be built into capable off road trucks, but you have add a lot of mods and $$ just to keep up with a stock Wrangler JK.
If there was no Jeep, I'd consider a second generation Disco or a Hummer H3. However, the little Suzuki Samurai is probably the next most capable with a minimum amount of dollars in upgrades. Not much power, but you don't need much power if you have the proper gearing.
The guys over at Project-JK organize some of the most challenging off road adventures in the southwest. These guys drive seriously upgraded Jeeps. On one such trip, they were joined by stock Wranglers (2007 and later) JKs. Guess what? The stock JKs were able to negotiate these insane trails, with stock All Terrain tires to boot.
In Britain, they tested a Sahara diesel against a Land Rover Defender 90 (also a diesel). The Defender has been touted as the best off road vehicle on the planet. The D90's price tag was nearly double that of the Jeep. Test results.... The Sahara easily matched the D90 off road, and was vastly superior on the road. It would have been no contest at all if the Brits had tested a Rubicon... I don't believe Rubicons are sold in Europe.
How about some really well made, eye popping videos from Project-JK?
The Bullfrog Jeep trail.. Rated "difficult". Watch the stock Wrangler hanging in there with much modified JKs.
http://www.youtube.com/user/wayalife#p/a/f/1/aLERd3D4HCo (http://www.youtube.com/user/wayalife#p/a/f/1/aLERd3D4HCo)
More great Project-JK videos... Should start with part 2 of the Easter Moab run...
http://www.youtube.com/user/wayalife (http://www.youtube.com/user/wayalife)
(http://farm3.static.flickr.com/2755/4357888355_897f4ea452_o.jpg)
My regards,
Widewing
Preach it Brother WW.
You are right on the JK Rubi being the best stock off road vehicle money can buy. Nothing beats solid axles and the JK really fixed most of the TJs flaws. They are so nice they are almost not jeeps.
My brother in Laws, JK Rubi stock is better off road then my 05 Rubi with 33 and a 2 inch lift.
Anyone who says they out wheel a jeep in anything with independent front suspension is talking out their rear end. Or only wheeling Mall parking lots.
And basing your opinion of jeeps on their 90s sqaure headlight wragler when its two generations from the current model is a little silly considering just how good the modern jeeps are. Hell a JK softop at 70 on the freeway is quiet enough to have a normal conversation in.
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I guess the neatest 4WD I had is one I built. A 1975 Vega Stationwagon Estate.
Custom frame and running gear from a 75 GMC Jimmy. Custom mounts and fuel tank along with 10 inch pipe front bumper and two 3 inch rear bumpers.
I have some pics around here somewhere. Ran 38.5 monster mudders on it on 12" x 15" rims.
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I have a photo of my JEEP since i rescued it from near death. After an enormous amount of sanding, a coat of primer, and a quick camo paint job i am now ready to install the new suspension and military NDCC tires. I cannot wait for warm weather to take the top off this thing. May 8th is national go topless day sponsored by Allthingsjeep.com
http://i49.tinypic.com/2rr2byg.jpg
Todd
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Low End Torque = Less chance of breakage
Higher RPM's = More chance of breakage
BTW, a Rodeo on pucks isn't all that bad. At least that person will be wheeling.
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Pffft Try an 84 Bronco with lockers front and rear, a 460, a fairbanks C6 and cut fenders to fit 35" BF mud TAs. :t
i've never really cared for broncos......'cept for those old square bodied ones......
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I have a photo of my JEEP since i rescued it from near death. After an enormous amount of sanding, a coat of primer, and a quick camo paint job i am now ready to install the new suspension and military NDCC tires. I cannot wait for warm weather to take the top off this thing. May 8th is national go topless day sponsored by Allthingsjeep.com
http://i49.tinypic.com/2rr2byg.jpg
Todd
May my ass :D
Woot 44 degrees ! :x
(http://i239.photobucket.com/albums/ff107/tymekeepyr/Jeep/Jeepatwork.jpg)
Warm enough by my standards :rock :rock :rock
(http://i239.photobucket.com/albums/ff107/tymekeepyr/Jeep/Jeepnodoorssnow.jpg)
(http://i239.photobucket.com/albums/ff107/tymekeepyr/Jeep/Jeep_beer_001a.png)
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I guess the neatest 4WD I had is one I built. A 1975 Vega Stationwagon Estate.
Custom frame and running gear from a 75 GMC Jimmy. Custom mounts and fuel tank along with 10 inch pipe front bumper and two 3 inch rear bumpers.
I have some pics around here somewhere. Ran 38.5 monster mudders on it on 12" x 15" rims.
there used to be a 71 dodge challenger running around here. convertible.
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i've never really cared for broncos......'cept for those old square bodied ones......
Trust me you would of liked mine. On road stock GT's would pull a fender on the 1/4 and that's it. :devil
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The jeep next door has a cute emblem on it "H2 Recovery Team" :)
i was there when that all started!
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Read in the paper, Hummer will be discontinued 2011. Jeep wins again! :D I'm sorry to all you jeep haters. I do laugh at the Yellow H2's parked at the grocery store. :rolleyes: Nothing says look at me im an idiot more than a yellow hummer parked at a grocery store IMO.
Ripsnort, your Cruiser looks cute! I'd be more than happy to pull you out of the ditch if needed! :t
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WW, that was a funny one :)
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Read in the paper, Hummer will be discontinued 2011. Jeep wins again! :D I'm sorry to all you jeep haters. I do laugh at the Yellow H2's parked at the grocery store. :rolleyes: Nothing says look at me im an idiot more than a yellow hummer parked at a grocery store IMO.
Ripsnort, your Cruiser looks cute! I'd be more than happy to pull you out of the ditch if needed! :t
Ironically, the only pull I've had to do was pulling a jeep out of a ditch in a snowstorm last winter. The fellow was rather embarassed but thankful. He tried to pay $20 but I told him to just tell his buddies that it was "FJ to the rescue!" (He belonged to a local Jeep club.) :x :x :x
Our FJ Club offroads with Jeep clubs all the time. It's not what you drive, its the sport of offroading that we all love. That said, FJ's rule, Jeeps just drool. :devil
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I bought my jeep from a old man who let it sit outside for over 5 years. When my brother and I went to pick up the jeep he asked if it ran, I said it was made in Toledo of course it will run and after a new tune-up kit and some wiring modifications it fired right up. You cannot kill a jeep no matter what. I believe as far as out wheeling other vehicles that it is not what your driving but who is driving the vehicle that matters.
Todd
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Ironically, the only pull I've had to do was pulling a jeep out of a ditch in a snowstorm last winter. The fellow was rather embarassed but thankful. He tried to pay $20 but I told him to just tell his buddies that it was "FJ to the rescue!" (He belonged to a local Jeep club.) :x :x :x
Our FJ Club offroads with Jeep clubs all the time. It's not what you drive, its the sport of offroading that we all love. That said, FJ's rule, Jeeps just drool. :devil
i've never had to pull anything out.....but had to be pulled out once..........went over a "whoopdidoo" fast, when when i came back down, there was no ground where it used to be(it had been months since i had been there) but rather a somewhat deep puddle(felt more like a pond). anyway, she cut off when i hit the water.
another chevy pulled me out. :aok
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Ironically, the only pull I've had to do was pulling a jeep out of a ditch in a snowstorm last winter. The fellow was rather embarassed but thankful. He tried to pay $20 but I told him to just tell his buddies that it was "FJ to the rescue!" (He belonged to a local Jeep club.) :x :x :x
Our FJ Club offroads with Jeep clubs all the time. It's not what you drive, its the sport of offroading that we all love. That said, FJ's rule, Jeeps just drool. :devil
We went wheeling in the NJ Pine Barrens last fall. We had just ran out of trash bags that we use for our clean-up that we try to do whenever we go wheeling.
Just about that time, a FJ club came climbing up the hill, about 7 or 8 of them. One even had a trailer to put trash in, and a whole bunch more bags for trash. They had also brought shovels, rakes and other implements of destruction to aid in clean-up. I was the only guy with a jeep, but they never said a word about it, or broke my balls. Really nice bunch of people.
http://www.fjbruisers.org/ (http://www.fjbruisers.org/)
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We went wheeling in the NJ Pine Barrens last fall. We had just ran out of trash bags that we use for our clean-up that we try to do whenever we go wheeling.
Just about that time, a FJ club came climbing up the hill, about 7 or 8 of them. One even had a trailer to put trash in, and a whole bunch more bags for trash. They had also brought shovels, rakes and other implements of destruction to aid in clean-up. I was the only guy with a jeep, but they never said a word about it, or broke my balls. Really nice bunch of people.
http://www.fjbruisers.org/ (http://www.fjbruisers.org/)
Yep, there is a lot of respect between Jeep and Toyota owners.
And we also carry a couple big trash bags to clean up the trails everytime we go out. WTG on the clean up! <S>
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Yep, there is a lot of respect between Jeep and Toyota owners.
And we also carry a couple big trash bags to clean up the trails everytime we go out. WTG on the clean up! <S>
Looks like they (the pigs that littered), climbed the fire watch tower at Apple Pie Hill and went ape-poop dropping stuff off of it into the puddle at the bottom..........
We literally filled this guy's trailer with garbage. You name it... about 3 TV's, 5 computers, keyboards, etc. I'm ashamed to say that there was probably about 200 pounds of half-burned Quadratech catalogs there, also. My kids chipped in to clean-up though, so it was a good object lesson
(http://i239.photobucket.com/albums/ff107/tymekeepyr/Pine%20Barrens%2009/100_2360.jpg)
(http://i239.photobucket.com/albums/ff107/tymekeepyr/Pine%20Barrens%2009/100_2369.jpg)
(http://i239.photobucket.com/albums/ff107/tymekeepyr/Pine%20Barrens%2009/100_2372.jpg)
(http://i239.photobucket.com/albums/ff107/tymekeepyr/Pine%20Barrens%2009/100_2374.jpg)
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Have owned everything under the sun. Will never go back to anything else.
(http://ahjg11.webs.com/DSC00982.JPG)
'04 TJ Rubi.
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The jeep vs. X argument is silly. There is no answer, only everyone's opinions, and you know what they say about opinions...
You can find examples of suzukis and hummers that will pull anything in this thread. Gona go tell those guys their vehicles suck?
That being said, I'm a yota man! :D
I had a late 70's CJ-5 and it was a bucket. Not my only experience with jeeps, but the only one I've owned, and the only one I'll ever own...
'73 longbed, runs great (fill the oil, check the gas). My current wood truck.
(http://bikeart.com/ah/pickupforweb.jpg)
'98 4runner doing some local trail cleanup.
(http://bikeart.com/ah/'98forweb.jpg)
'85 4runner starting up the Great Western. Locked front and rear, 100/1 final low, good for 4+ feet of water, took me a lot of places...
(http://bikeart.com/ah/85forweb.jpg)
'91 extended cab prerunner. 18 inches of travel front and rear, like riding a 110 mph mattress down whatever you dared.
(http://bikeart.com/ah/prerunnerforweb.jpg)
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Just watch those floor mats AKHog. :)
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Just watch those floor mats AKHog. :)
ain't nuthin wrong with toyotas............ :noid :noid
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Ironically, the only pull I've had to do was pulling a jeep out of a ditch in a snowstorm last winter. The fellow was rather embarassed but thankful. He tried to pay $20 but I told him to just tell his buddies that it was "FJ to the rescue!" (He belonged to a local Jeep club.) :x :x :x
Our FJ Club offroads with Jeep clubs all the time. It's not what you drive, its the sport of offroading that we all love. That said, FJ's rule, Jeeps just drool. :devil
Where FJs suffer is outward vision (nothing quite equals top down, doors off) and a Independent Front Suspension. Better on road, a major weakness off road. Not unlike the Hummer, IFS is always the weak link. Again, like the Hummer the FJ is prone to breaking tie rod ends. My neighbor suffered his third failed tie rod on his 4Runner last fall rock crawling. He keeps a spare onboard with the required tools.
Here's an example of a tie rod failing.. Around the 4:10 mark. His spotters were generally useless. He was clearly bottomed, and needed to back off and try a better line. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=07fE-IV5tP0&feature=related (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=07fE-IV5tP0&feature=related)
By the way, In December I had to pull an FJ off of a snow berm. The driver tried to drive over it, high centered with the rear wheels barely touching and was not going anywhere without a tow or the spring thaw. I used my snatch strap to yank him off. But first, I had to drive over the berm myself. Shorter wheelbase, bigger tires and greater ground clearance made it easy enough. Like anything else, the driver has to know what he can and cannot accomplish. I've seen Rubicons buried up to the door sills on the beach, due to not airing down and having a lead foot. You can't fix stupid. Over the many years I've had CJs and Wranglers, I've pulled or winched out just about every type of SUV you can imagine. Broncos, Blazers, Tacos, YJs, TJs, Cherokees, Frontiers, F150s, even an old Subaru Brat. Getting stuck or high centered is easy if you don't use good judgment or common sense. I guess the most unusual was towing out a hydro-locked Disco. What he thought to be a shallow ford, suddenly stepped down four feet. Had to winch him out, then tow him to the road for a flatbed ride to the dealer. Wasn't easy to pull him out. We had to strap my YJ to a tree as I was winching the Jeep towards the Disco. He learned that you don't try to cross an unknown water obstacle without first determining the depth and speed of the water. Expensive lesson, his wife was not pleased. Riding home, soaking wet, in a tow truck, was not her idea of a fun afternoon.
At least no one has come out bragging about their Pilot or Ridgeline.....
(http://i266.photobucket.com/albums/ii274/TimzToy/Snow%20Day%2002062010/S7300390.jpg)
My regards,
Widewing
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yep......nuthin like a jeep/.......... :neener:
(http://i200.photobucket.com/albums/aa135/1LTCAP/2010-03-08163541.jpg)
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normally I would add a comment about that Honda widewing is pulling free, but cougars are known to drive those vehicles he mentioned :joystick:
Todd
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FJ's seem to be very trouble free from my personal interaction with owners. I know 4 people with them and all of them wheel them. They aren't "mall crawlers". People who "break", don't just "break". Look. The bottom line is not what you drive, it's how you drive it. But more often than not, folks who drive Hummers, think they can go anywhere. Those are the ones I avoid like the plague on the trails, maybe a "hi", but pretty much a "stay the **** away from me" on the tracks.
A member of my Jeep club put up with this love muffin in an H1 for the duration of a wheeling trip. It defied and went well beyond "ribbing". Anywho, the H1 love muffin, was stuck up to his hubs in mud. My buddy grenaded 1st, 2nd, 3rd and Reverse of his 2000 TJ. But he extracted the H1. Not many can lay claim to that. H2's are a joke to begin with.
I've never been stuck. The closest I got, was on my clubs SnoFari in 2007 at West Branch in January. Not much snow, but tank traps galore. I had my 83 CJ7 at the time. I entered the first hole straddling the right side and my drivers door dipping below the top of the water. I thought my Dana 300 was engaged, but I went 3/4's of the way through in 2WD, which was a feat in itself. My read was perfect, but the gears didn't "mesh" good enough. I nudged a buried boulder with my front diff, cover. I stop, back up about 10 feet and engage the 300. By this time, one of the more accomplished people in our group said "Pull your cable, you're done!" I put her in drive and drove out to everyone's amazement.
Jeeps are an excellent off road vehicle. But, the Early Bronco's and the Mid 90's D90/D110's are tops (hell, the Camel Trophy vehicles were stock Discovery XD's with a roof rack and lights). I'd even put the old FJ40's up there too. People buy different vehicles, for various reasons. But I can make substantiated, non-biased/opinionated arguments for those 4 vehicles being "the best". It is even voiced by John Cappa himself: "The Early Bronco is the greatest 4wd vehicle ever". I've met him in person and we have discussed this in length. We had some visitors on our run, that traveled from a Swedish 4wd Magazine.
Here is a custom 4 door Tracker that can best any Rubicon I've seen in person. 18" Travel Fox Racing shocks all around. He has since rolled it and instead of Dana 44's F & R, he's going with 60's.
(http://www.glfwda.org/attachment.php?attachmentid=291&d=1233246847)
He is a Trail Guide (Trail Leader not a Sweep) on our Club Run. We are now getting National Attention. Our Club maintains 60+ miles of ORV trails twice a year and put on the most consistent GLFWDA Event. We've only been around since Nov. 2005 on top of it. But I cannot knock another man's ride, I just don't prefer Hummers.
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Here is a custom 4 door Tracker that can best any Rubicon I've seen in person. 18" Travel Fox Racing shocks all around. He has since rolled it and instead of Dana 44's F & R, he's going with 60's.
Look at all the mods that the tracker has for you to compare it a STOCK Rubicon. :x
The Rubicon right off the dealership lot will out perform most 4X4 vehicles and some are calling it the greatest stock off road vehicle ever produced.
I however am not of this thinking on the Rubicon as I only by vehicles that are pre 1973, The Willy's Jeep was IMHO
my .02
Todd
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Look at all the mods that the tracker has for you to compare it a STOCK Rubicon. :x
The Rubicon right off the dealership lot will out perform most 4X4 vehicles and some are calling it the greatest stock off road vehicle ever produced.
I however am not of this thinking on the Rubicon as I only by vehicles that are pre 1973, The Willy's Jeep was IMHO
my .02
Todd
for one thing, its not stock! and some people don't know what they are talking about when they say its the best one ever built
it is dumb to go pay twice as much to jeep for the same after market parts you can buy and add to a "stock" jeep to make it a rubicon
the second generation traction controlled land rover is a much more capable vehicle as far as off road ability, but you wont see them on the trail nearly as often because of the price.
the new chevy pickups use this same traction control and i have one of them, it is the first one in a long time i bought without positrac, i thought i would hate it, but it turns out, it is more capable than anything i have ever driven "stock"
while i do like jeeps, the rubicon is an over priced version of most wheelers on/ offroad daily drivers, and they clutter up the trails with kids who's daddy had enough money to buy one for there kids but not enough sense to know better, so we drag them out of the river and watch as they get hauled back to the dealers to be fixed because these people have any idea how to fix them because they didn't build them up to start with!
it isn't as funny as watching the hummers go in only to be towed out, but it is funny none the less.
i will hook on to anybodies beat up old river truck or rock crawler for free and lend my tools to help fix it or get in there and help till i have bled as well
but it's gonna cost you when i drag that "stock' hummer or rubicon out of there! lol
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i will hook on to anybodies beat up old river truck or rock crawler for free and lend my tools to help fix it or get in there and help till i have bled as well
but it's gonna cost you when i drag that "stock' hummer or rubicon out of there! lol
amen brother amen !!!!
Todd
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The basic problem with this argument is there is no perfect 'off road' vehicle.
Overland, rock crawling, baja running, snow, ice, mud, etc... all require different types of setups. My 100+ MPH prerunner can't make it into half the places my 100/1 ratio locked 4runner could go. Does that mean one is better than the other? Hell no.
As far as going to the dealer and buying something stock, I agree the jeep is pretty good, but by no means the best. But buying a $30,000+ vehicle because of its offroading ability seems silly. For less than 1/3rd of that any decent wrench can build up an older vehicle to be twice as capable. And off roaders who don't know how to wrench on their own stuff are just asking for problems, not to mention missing out on half of the sport.
Personally if I was going to buy a 'stock' vehicle for offroading there would only be one choice in my mind.
I've driven one (6x) on some of the same trails I have the most experience driving my rock crawlers on, and all I can say is holly wow, what a vehicle.
http://www.difflock.com/diffmag/issue14/pinzgauer/technical.shtml
(http://www.4x4offroads.com/image-files/pinzgauer-710m-1973-1.jpg)
(http://www.4x4offroads.com/image-files/1972-pinzgauer-712m.jpg)
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Where FJs suffer is outward vision (nothing quite equals top down, doors off) and a Independent Front Suspension. Better on road, a major weakness off road.
Not exactly correct.
IFS is fine if build properly. Just check out the link I posted above.
The fastest offroad vehicles built have IFS and IRS.
My prerunner had IFS and there is just no way you could break it doing anything outside a full on front end crash. Of course it wasn't stock ;).
Only for rock crawling does the solid axle perform better in some situations becuase of the way it naturally flexes. But I've broken several longfields in the toyota solid front axle and never broke anything on my IFS vehicles. But Maybe thats just because I know what my vehicles are capable of.
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the rubicon is an over priced version of most wheelers on/ offroad daily drivers, and they clutter up the trails with kids who's daddy had enough money to buy one for there kids but not enough sense to know better, so we drag them out of the river and watch as they get hauled back to the dealers to be fixed because these people have any idea how to fix them because they didn't build them up to start with!
Well said.
i will hook on to anybodies beat up old river truck or rock crawler for free and lend my tools to help fix it or get in there and help till i have bled as well but it's gonna cost you when i drag that "stock' hummer or rubicon out of there! lol
:aok
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(http://i343.photobucket.com/albums/o460/caldera_08/Picture024.jpg)
I'll take one of these with a 6.4 liter HEMI thank you.
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* 45 degree approach and departure angle
* 100% slope, or until tyres lose traction
* 27.6 in fording depth
* Can climb down a 14.2 in wall
* 43.5 degree side-slope
* 1500 kg of payload (6x6)
* 13.2 in of clearance (lowest point when fully loaded)
* top speed: 68 mph
* Full engine power available at 2 mph
* M body type carries 14 people (6x6)
So what other vehicle can you buy stock, for well under $15,000, drive 70 mph to the trails, run 95% of what the most highly modified rock crawlers can run, cross several feet of water, all while a keg and 10 of your friends are in the back? :aok
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EISbBxqYTQk&feature=related
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JOKIeaqtPzY
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So what other vehicle can you buy stock, for well under $15,000, drive 70 mph to the trails, run 95% of what the most highly modified rock crawlers can run, cross several feet of water, all while a keg and 10 of your friends are in the back? :aok
I know of a few places that it could not go that a Jeep would.
Those 10 people better be coughing up some ends on the fuel ! :x :D
Todd
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(http://i343.photobucket.com/albums/o460/caldera_08/Picture024.jpg)
I'll take one of these with a 6.4 liter HEMI thank you.
You don't. On our 2009 Club Run we had 4 AEV Brutes go on the trails. Two broke down and one almost had it's bed ripped off. The AEV guys even said they "needed to go back to the drawing board".
Not to mention the Engine/Axle combination sucks. Minimum of Dana 44 up front and either a 44/60 or Sterling 13.5 out back. If you don't, you'd better haul a trailer with spare axle shafts.
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I know of a few places that it could not go that a Jeep would.
Those 10 people better be coughing up some ends on the fuel ! :x :D
Todd
Where exactly can a stock off the showroom floor jeep go that a Penz can't?
And they get great gas mileage and good usable power from the 4 cly aircooled engine. Any of the big jeep engines will do way worse.
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Where exactly can a stock off the showroom floor jeep go that a Penz can't?
And they get great gas mileage and good usable power from the 4 cly aircooled engine. Any of the big jeep engines will do way worse.
For starters IIRC, they have to be 25 years old or more to be imported into the US. Now you're talking "reliability and parts" issues.
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You don't. On our 2009 Club Run we had 4 AEV Brutes go on the trails. Two broke down and one almost had it's bed ripped off. The AEV guys even said they "needed to go back to the drawing board".
Not to mention the Engine/Axle combination sucks. Minimum of Dana 44 up front and either a 44/60 or Sterling 13.5 out back. If you don't, you'd better haul a trailer with spare axle shafts.
You're right, it's total garbage. Next time I shall seek your counsel before deciding what I should want to drive.
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You're right, it's total garbage. Next time I shall seek your counsel before deciding what I should want to drive.
It's your money, buy one.
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For starters IIRC, they have to be 25 years old or more to be imported into the US. Now you're talking "reliability and parts" issues.
So you can't make an example backing up your claim so you change the subject, I see.
The truth is there is very little if nothing that any stock jeep can do that the Penz can't, and there is a hell of a lot more the Penz can do that the stock heep can't.
Reliability issues, please... have you even ever seen the vehicle you are putting down? This thing was designed to stand wartime abuse. And most of the ones you buy in the US have been extensively rebuilt and updated. These are some of the most reliable offroad vehicles you can buy. Go read some overland adventure type's reviews of the penz, people who really understand the meaning of reliable.
Spare parts? Yes, we got those too. T-Lo's offroad used to be right down the street from me in Prescott, he alone has enough spares and incomplete penz to supply the majority of the US penz for years to come, and he is only one of many.
Yea, penz are old unreliable and incapable offroad vehicles when compared to the modern jeep. LMFAO!! :rofl
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So you can't make an example backing up your claim so you change the subject, I see.
The truth is there is very little if nothing that any stock jeep can do that the Penz can't, and there is a hell of a lot more the Penz can do that the stock heep can't.
Reliability issues, please... have you even ever seen the vehicle you are putting down? This thing was designed to stand wartime abuse. And most of the ones you buy in the US have been extensively rebuilt and updated. These are some of the most reliable offroad vehicles you can buy. Go read some overland adventure type's reviews of the penz, people who really understand the meaning of reliable.
Spare parts? Yes, we got those too. T-Lo's offroad used to be right down the street from me in Prescott, he alone has enough spares and incomplete penz to supply the majority of the US penz for years to come, and he is only one of many.
Yea, penz are old unreliable and incapable offroad vehicles when compared to the modern jeep. LMFAO!! :rofl
I never made "the claim". Todd did. Attack someone else when you get your FACTS STRAIGHT! LMFAO!!! :rofl :rofl
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I never made "the claim". Todd did. Attack someone else when you get your FACTS STRAIGHT! LMFAO!!! :rofl :rofl
Opps sorry... read the posts too fast... my points still stand though.
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Opps sorry... read the posts too fast... my points still stand though.
These are IFS. So any "point" is moot. Again, there is a limited source of parts for these (not even 12 dealers/suppliers in the US).
IFS isn't worth the trouble. Solid Axles F&R is the only way to go, unless you're pre-running, but Michigan doesn't have open desert. We have boulders, mud and trails.
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Can that vehicle go here:
sideways in a one car garage?
http://i44.tinypic.com/o91hs1.jpg
LMAO :rofl :bolt:
Todd
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Where FJs suffer is outward vision (nothing quite equals top down, doors off) and a Independent Front Suspension. Better on road, a major weakness off road. Not unlike the Hummer, IFS is always the weak link. Again, like the Hummer the FJ is prone to breaking tie rod ends. My neighbor suffered his third failed tie rod on his 4Runner last fall rock crawling. He keeps a spare onboard with the required tools.
I think you might want consider that the occasional broken tie rods on the FJ's are more attributed to the driving style rather than the IFS. (Personally, I belong to a FJ club with over 100 people and have never hear of a broken tie rod end) I think you might have formed an opinion (or had your opinion formed by your peers FOR you) that IFS leads to more broken tie-rods. It may be the case in Hummers, but not so for the FJ's. I mean lets face it, I could match you broken tie-rod for broken tie-rod on Youtube. There are plenty of jeeps out there breaking them too. Most that I've seen is the driving technique, or the stupid line they take.
This guy that I filmed POUNDS his stock (other than the lift kit, and upgraded coil-overs) continously everytime we go out, along with several others.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UM_vfZaqd7E
(Yes, he highcentered it, but also forgot to lock it in, once he locked it in, he drove right up and over)
The main goal of the Japanese engineer that created the FJ Cruiser was to surpass build quality to that of the Jeep that is in production today. He spent 12 months in the US, doing what? Guess....riding in Jeeps on offroad excursions PRIOR to designing the FJ Cruiser. :) Now, whether or not he did suceed in surpassing offroad capability to that of the Jeep, well, I let that argument go to the respective cheerleaders of each camp and the professionals that have analysied the crap of these two models head to head (FWIW, they both finish with extremely high scores) To even mention "H2" or "H3" in the same sentence of an FJ is an insult to say the least. One was specifically engineered and manufactured for "From showroom floor to offroad" capability and the others were strictly for market share.
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I think you might want consider that the occasional broken tie rods on the FJ's are more attributed to the driving style rather than the IFS. (Personally, I belong to a FJ club with over 100 people and have never hear of a broken tie rod end) I think you might have formed an opinion that IFS leads to more broken tie-rods.
This guy that I filmed POUNDS his stock (other than the lift kit, and upgraded coil-overs) continously everytime we go out, along with several others.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UM_vfZaqd7E
(Yes, he highcentered it, but also forgot to lock it in, once he locked it in, he drove right up and over)
The main goal of the Japanese engineer that created the FJ Cruiser was to surpass build quality to that of the Jeep that is in production today. He spent 12 months in the US, doing what? Guess....riding in Jeeps on offroad excursions PRIOR to designing the FJ Cruiser. :) Now, whether or not he did suceed in surpassing offroad capability to that of the Jeep, well, I let that argument go to the respective cheerleaders of each camp and the professionals that have analysied the crap of these two models head to head (FWIW, they both finish with extremely high scores) To even mention "H2" or "H3" in the same sentence of an FJ is an insult to say the least. One was specifically engineered and manufactured for "From showroom floor to offroad" capability and the others were strictly for market share.
Without question, this is correct. There is ALWAYS a logical reason for "breaks" on the trail. Some people "want bigger tires" and don't apply common sense to stronger 1-piece axle shafts or moly's. The FJ's have ALWAYS been a very capable vehicle, which is why Toyota revived the "FJ" name. It gives the wheeling community another viable, excellent option to take the family on the trails and bond with others who share in the same hobby.
Rip, ever since you bought "Tonka", I've done nothing but try to get you to "beef that thing up" and I'm a Jeep owner. I don't "hate" on other brands like some of my friends do. One of these days, my ZJ will drive out to Lake Tapps and wheel, or maybe end up in Minnesota when you're there. :rock
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Mash, I have too many other expensive hobbies that I pump money into, two of them are ages 11 and 14. :D Maybe if I get a 3rd vehicle some day, then I'll begin building my version of "The ultimate offroad FJ". :rock
And as I mentioned before, if you find yourself out here in the PNW, you have a place to stay! I'll take you out to Tahuya for some offroading too! :banana:
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These are IFS. So any "point" is moot. Again, there is a limited source of parts for these (not even 12 dealers/suppliers in the US).
IFS isn't worth the trouble. Solid Axles F&R is the only way to go, unless you're pre-running, but Michigan doesn't have open desert. We have boulders, mud and trails.
if you're gonna take ANYTHING off road, a solid front axle is the only way to go.
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This is the coolest grill on the planet.
http://farm5.static.flickr.com/4057/4418093742_aa505073e3_o.jpg
Todd
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I researched and test drove the FJ, Xterra and Jeep. Jeep was to hard for my 50 mile commute, the Xterra was to plain inside plus I hate the "electronic" transfer case. I went with the FJ for the all around usability of street driving and off-road capabilities. Can't wait to start adding a few mods and hitting the trails this spring/summer!
(http://photos-b.ak.fbcdn.net/hphotos-ak-snc3/hs203.snc3/21059_1218171126648_999961928_30532122_5115750_n.jpg)
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The basic problem with this argument is there is no perfect 'off road' vehicle.
Overland, rock crawling, baja running, snow, ice, mud, etc... all require different types of setups. My 100+ MPH prerunner can't make it into half the places my 100/1 ratio locked 4runner could go. Does that mean one is better than the other? Hell no.
As far as going to the dealer and buying something stock, I agree the jeep is pretty good, but by no means the best. But buying a $30,000+ vehicle because of its offroading ability seems silly. For less than 1/3rd of that any decent wrench can build up an older vehicle to be twice as capable. And off roaders who don't know how to wrench on their own stuff are just asking for problems, not to mention missing out on half of the sport.
Personally if I was going to buy a 'stock' vehicle for offroading there would only be one choice in my mind.
I've driven one (6x) on some of the same trails I have the most experience driving my rock crawlers on, and all I can say is holly wow, what a vehicle.
http://www.difflock.com/diffmag/issue14/pinzgauer/technical.shtml
(http://www.4x4offroads.com/image-files/pinzgauer-710m-1973-1.jpg)
(http://www.4x4offroads.com/image-files/1972-pinzgauer-712m.jpg)
Didn't think it was supposed to be an argument, and he wasn't really saying how uber Jeeps were :D
Like the OP said, "There ain't nothing like a Jeep"
There is no arguing that statement.
He is 100% correct. There is not, has not, and will not be anything like it ever since the first one rolled up the capitol steps.
If I want to take the doors and top off... I can
If I want to hook up an air compressor and plumb my bumper as an air tank.... I can
If I want to hook up 2nd ginormous Cadillac alternator under the hood to use as a welder to repair my, or other rigs that get broken on the trail.... I can
If I want to hook up a heat-exchanger to my cooling system so I can get a hot shower from a cold water source while camping...... I will
You can get it filthy and it only looks better.
You can mount a snorkel to it, drive across a river that is up to your lap and the water will run right out of the holes in the tub when you come out the other side
It is a man-sized lego set for adults. :rock
It was the vehicle that won WWII :aok
Not everyone may think it's the best, but the OP was totally right about one thing.......
There ain't nothing like it :D
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It was the vehicle that won WWII :aok
WW2 is so 1940's.
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If I want to take the doors and top off... I can
If I want to hook up an air compressor and plumb my bumper as an air tank.... I can
If I want to hook up 2nd ginormous Cadillac alternator under the hood to use as a welder to repair my, or other rigs that get broken on the trail.... I can
If I want to hook up a heat-exchanger to my cooling system so I can get a hot shower from a cold water source while camping...... I will
You can get it filthy and it only looks better.
You can mount a snorkel to it, drive across a river that is up to your lap and the water will run right out of the holes in the tub when you come out the other side
Yes and 'I can' and have done all of that in my yota... So?
There ain't nothing like it :D
I will agree with that!
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IFS isn't worth the trouble. Solid Axles F&R is the only way to go...
This comment alone is enough for me to discount anything you ever say about offroad vehicles. Compare your opinion to the US military, who has made their choice clear for years.
:bolt:
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This comment alone is enough for me to discount anything you ever say about offroad vehicles. Compare your opinion to the US military, who has made their choice clear for years.
:bolt:
.....ah so the Humvee "counters all". I was waiting for this. Move along Hog, you've hijacked this thread enough.
Break a solid axle shaft and an IFS side. Who's PAYING more? This statement alone negates your opinion on off-road vehicles.
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You don't. On our 2009 Club Run we had 4 AEV Brutes go on the trails. Two broke down and one almost had it's bed ripped off. The AEV guys even said they "needed to go back to the drawing board".
Not to mention the Engine/Axle combination sucks. Minimum of Dana 44 up front and either a 44/60 or Sterling 13.5 out back. If you don't, you'd better haul a trailer with spare axle shafts.
That's not an AVE Brute. It's a Jeep factory prototype based upon the JK Unlimited. Locking Dana 44s front and rear, Teraflex lift and 35" rubber.
My regards,
Widewing
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That's not an AVE Brute. It's a Jeep factory prototype based upon the JK Unlimited. Locking Dana 44s front and rear, Teraflex lift and 35" rubber.
My regards,
Widewing
No info was posted and I'm not a mind reader, so I thank you for posting up what it is. That is a ton of engine for not much weight over the rear axle. They might fare better than AEV has, time will tell.
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for one thing, its not stock! and some people don't know what they are talking about when they say its the best one ever built
it is dumb to go pay twice as much to jeep for the same after market parts you can buy and add to a "stock" jeep to make it a rubicon
the second generation traction controlled land rover is a much more capable vehicle as far as off road ability, but you wont see them on the trail nearly as often because of the price.
the new chevy pickups use this same traction control and i have one of them, it is the first one in a long time i bought without positrac, i thought i would hate it, but it turns out, it is more capable than anything i have ever driven "stock"
while i do like jeeps, the rubicon is an over priced version of most wheelers on/ offroad daily drivers, and they clutter up the trails with kids who's daddy had enough money to buy one for there kids but not enough sense to know better, so we drag them out of the river and watch as they get hauled back to the dealers to be fixed because these people have any idea how to fix them because they didn't build them up to start with!
it isn't as funny as watching the hummers go in only to be towed out, but it is funny none the less.
i will hook on to anybodies beat up old river truck or rock crawler for free and lend my tools to help fix it or get in there and help till i have bled as well
but it's gonna cost you when i drag that "stock' hummer or rubicon out of there! lol
What does a Rubicon offer to justify the increased cost? Electric sway bar discos. Locking Dana 44s front and rear. BFG KM2 rubber. Better shocks and higher rate springs. It also has the 4/1 Rock-Trac crawl ratio transfer case not offered on other Wranglers. Trust me on this... If you bought a Wrangler Sport and wanted to bring it up to Rubicon specs, it would cost you far more in total than the difference of simply buying the Rubicon.
Do not confuse the the current JK Wrangler with the previous TJ series. Out the dealer door, the JK is more capable than the TJ. Substantially more capable. That may freak out our TJ owners, but it is a fact.
Here's another fact. A Wrangler Sahara (optimized for the street) was tested head to head against a new D110 Defender, both on and off road. The winner? The Wrangler. I really do get tired of that weary mantra of how the Defender or any other Land Rover is much better than a new Wrangler. Pure hogwash. I've driven Defender D90s, several Discos and the LR2. I liked every one of them. A used Disco can be a great choice for a weekend off road vehicle. However, their general lack of electrical system reliability (especially in early generation Discos) and high cost of all parts would discourage me from considering one as a daily driver. There's also the very limited upgrade aftermarket for LRs.
Some of their test comments... "There’s nothing the Defender does the Jeep can’t do better." "Defender ills persist as Jeep shows how it should be done."
Test conclusions: "The Jeep Wrangler Unlimited 2.8 CRD Sahara is the resounding winner in this test. We thought it would be a much closer contest between this pair of iconic off-roaders. But it’s clear that Jeep have done far more to make their new 4x4 appeal to a broader range of buyers, while retaining its core strengths of off-road ability and functional good looks. Land Rover have certainly kept these same two attributes with their Defender update, and over the old TD5 model, main road performance is much improved. But it still looks expensive and under equipped, even though it will always be worth more used. That’s appealing but, for us, not enough to make up for the rest of it. Apart from being cheaper to buy, the Jeep has far superior safety credentials and is also quicker, more refined, easier on fuel and better to drive on-road while still being great off-road. A
massive gap has grown up between these two legends.
If this all sounds like doom and gloom for Land Rover, we’ve no doubt the Defender will carry on selling in significant numbers to commercial customers who need a serious off-road machine for serious work. There are also dyed-in-the-wool Land Rover enthusiasts who will only ever have eyes for Solihull. But we, like the great majority of potential buyers, belong in neither camp, and therefore have no hesitation at all in recommending the Jeep."
Read the entire 4X4 & MPV Driver test report here: http://zool.xsion.gr/blog/wp-content/uploads/JK/wranglervsdefender.pdf (http://zool.xsion.gr/blog/wp-content/uploads/JK/wranglervsdefender.pdf)
This Sahara lacked locking difs, sway bar disco and M/T tires.
I'm going to reiterate this point, because it seems that most want to compare a heavily modded vehicle to a stock Wrangler.
Out of a dealer showroom, there is no other factory stock vehicle you can purchase that is as capable off road as a Wrangler, and the Rubicon sets the bar even higher.
This includes the FJ, Taco, the Xterra, the H3, the Frontier or any other 4x4 available in the USA. Every one of these vehicles will require some level of upgrade to equal the Wrangler Sport, and significant expenditure to compete with a stock Rubicon. Yet, everyone of those vehicles is better on road than a Wrangler. That is the compromise the various manufacturers elected to make. They sacrifice off road ability for comfort and convenience. If the owners of the above vehicles want Rubicon off road ability, than they must spend a considerable sum in aftermarket upgrades. There's nothing wrong with that. However, you still can't pull off the doors and fold the top and windshield.
My regards,
Widewing
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No info was posted and I'm not a mind reader, so I thank you for posting up what it is. That is a ton of engine for not much weight over the rear axle. They might fare better than AEV has, time will tell.
I don't foresee Jeep putting it into production... Maybe with the new Pentastar V6.
My regards,
Widewing
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I don't foresee Jeep putting it into production... Maybe with the new Pentastar V6.
My regards,
Widewing
That makes more sense, although I wanna say the AEV Brutes are being swapped from 3.7L's to 5.2L's. The body panels are very flimsy, which chip and crack easily. I'd have to say the Jeep version would address most of the known "issues" with the AEV Brute.
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A Wrangler Sahara (optimized for the street) was tested head to head against a new D110 Defender, both on and off road. The winner? The Wrangler.
slightly bizarre conclusion from that test, given that 3yrs in the Defender will cost you £8,000 vs £14,000 for 3yrs in the Wrangler, a massive difference. how does that compare to depreciation in the US?
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slightly bizarre conclusion from that test, given that 3yrs in the Defender will cost you £8,000 vs £14,000 for 3yrs in the Wrangler, a massive difference. how does that compare to depreciation in the US?
It is the Opposite. Right now a 1994 - 1997 Defender D90 is running you around $30,000-$38,000 here in the States and that is a bone stock one. D90's have "electrical issues" that cease beginning the 1994 Model Year. No Jeep has that level of depreciation.
A D110 in the States is more rare and will fetch a bit more.
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I will say this thread shows a fairly accurate cross section of the offroad community. Some people who obviously have experience, most who obviously don't. The majority will always be the guys who buy pretty trucks from the dealer, take it down the road to have it 'modded' at the local fab shop, and think they know everything about everything because they've got big tires and get offroading magazine. All the while they talk trash about others.
The IFS/solid axle debate is a perfect example. Same as jeep vs yota, arb vs detroits, the list goes on. There are simply way too many other factors evolved in offroading to completely discount one or the other. And if you've been around the block more than once you'd know this because there are plenty of good examples of both on the trails and in the rocks.
Personally I've seen enough to not discount anything. I'm not ashamed to admit I've been pulled out by hummers, jeeps, and all kinds of other silly stuff.
And when I post up the penz and everyone says its a POS cause its old and has independent suspension I just have to sit back and laugh.
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Yes and 'I can' and have done all of that in my yota... So?
I will agree with that!
Even though you have quoted me out of context (3 times), I'll bite....
I tried to build a Toyota that was a convertible.
(http://i239.photobucket.com/albums/ff107/tymekeepyr/FJCruiser.jpg)
No Luck. You can however, for about $10,000 chop the top and make it convertible.
Your doors come off? Really? How long did that take? How involved was it? Where did you wind up mounting you mirrors? What do the local cops think of it? Did you figure out how to shut the interior lights and the "door is open alarm" off?
If you "can and have" done all the above, I'd love to see some photos, because I'm wondering where in hell you found all the room for it. :D
Love the grill on the FJ's by the way.
Same for the HMMMV's
Imitation truly IS the sincerest form of flattery. :aok
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I will say this thread shows a fairly accurate cross section of the offroad community. Some people who obviously have experience, most who obviously don't. The majority will always be the guys who buy pretty trucks from the dealer, take it down the road to have it 'modded' at the local fab shop, and think they know everything about everything because they've got big tires and get offroading magazine. All the while they talk trash about others.
The IFS/solid axle debate is a perfect example. Same as jeep vs yota, arb vs detroits, the list goes on. There are simply way too many other factors evolved in offroading to completely discount one or the other. And if you've been around the block more than once you'd know this because there are plenty of good examples of both on the trails and in the rocks.
Personally I've seen enough to not discount anything. I'm not ashamed to admit I've been pulled out by hummers, jeeps, and all kinds of other silly stuff.
And when I post up the penz and everyone says its a POS cause its old and has independent suspension I just have to sit back and laugh.
If you haven't been pulled out by someone, at some point, you haven't been wheeling hard enough :D
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If you "can and have" done all the above, I'd love to see some photos, because I'm wondering where in hell you found all the room for it. :D
I'll take it back, I haven't done everything you listed, but everything can easily be done and is not jeep specific.
Air in the bumper, I've had onboard air for ARB's and airing up tires, always had enough strait from the compressor, never needed storage. If I did need storage I think I'd go with an under bed tank before the bumper, but I'm not trying to build a tool truck.
Convertible, mine came stock. 1st gen 4runner. $10,000 to chop the top off, yea if you pay someone to do it! :rofl
Doors, several quick disconnect kits are available. Basically they replace your hinges with a barrel type hinge that can be lifted off, like a jeep, fairly common mod and very inexpensive. You can make your own for just a couple dollars if you can weld (thats what I did). I could take my doors off in a few seconds. And if you can't figure out something so simple as to how to make the door light stay off, then you have no business taking your junk offroad.
Onboard welder, again why do you think this can only be done on a jeep? I haven't done it but several friends have. I have a porta torch if I'm really in a bind, but usually welding on the trail is a bad idea. If I do need to weld on the trail I can think of about 3 other options I'd use before using an onboard gen/stick welder.
Snorkel, there are plenty of kits and custom jobs out there as examples. You really don't think yota's can run snorkels?? My 85 4runner had a removable snorkel that went to the roof, 100% sealed cpu, and diff breathers that went inside the body and almost to the roof. I crossed 4 feet of running water and it didn't even feel like I was pushing it, I'm sure it could do more. Oh and it had factory drain holes in the floor, all you got to do is pop out the rubber stoppers. My interior was 100% rhyno lined and I had waterproof seats so I can hose the entire truck down inside and out.
No offense, but just because you can lift the doors off or because it comes stock with drain holes in the floor does not make it a better offroad vehicle. Everything you mentioned can be done to just about any car on the road.
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I will say this thread shows a fairly accurate cross section of the offroad community. Some people who obviously have experience, most who obviously don't. The majority will always be the guys who buy pretty trucks from the dealer, take it down the road to have it 'modded' at the local fab shop, and think they know everything about everything because they've got big tires and get offroading magazine. All the while they talk trash about others.
The IFS/solid axle debate is a perfect example. Same as jeep vs yota, arb vs detroits, the list goes on. There are simply way too many other factors evolved in offroading to completely discount one or the other. And if you've been around the block more than once you'd know this because there are plenty of good examples of both on the trails and in the rocks.
Personally I've seen enough to not discount anything. I'm not ashamed to admit I've been pulled out by hummers, jeeps, and all kinds of other silly stuff. And when I post up the penz and everyone says its a POS cause its old and has independent suspension I just have to sit back and laugh.
I have plenty of experience and you still want to come out on top with nothing to stand on. I am not ashamed to admit that I have never needed to be pulled out by anything or anyone. You can insult your own ability on the trail, as we both know "who" you think has "no experience".
AGAIN, if you take a Solid Axle and say...snap the passenger side, the cost is FAR LESS than an IFS side. Looking at one of the Pinzgauer website, just the CV boot alone was $200 (um, the solid axle is fixed for about $200), not counting other parts that are necessary. But hey, keep trying to spin your own agenda. I am only looking at the COST ISSUE so far.
I never said "the Pinzgauer was a POS", you're simply looking for a fight. All I said was buying a 25+ year old vehicle right off of the top brings "reliabilty issues" and IDGAF who restored it, it is still a 25+ year old vehicle. Also parts for the Pinzgauer are NOT as plentiful as a Jeep, Early Bronco, FJ series, K5's, etc. This is NOT opinion, it is a fact. If I'm buying a 25+ year old vehicle, I'm getting an Early Bronco especially a 75-77. Why? Perfect size/wheelbase and more available parts. Plus, a 9 inch rear and Dana 44 up front.
I've witnessed plenty of IFS Failures on the trail, from Moab to Michigan. As have others, H2's suck off road (and they do) and H1's are not as "bulletproof" as some claim. Plus, 90% of the trails will not properly accommodate H1's. Most states have width limits on ORV Routes/Trails that are routinely broken by owners of H1's.
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I have plenty of experience and you still want to come out on top with nothing to stand on. I am not ashamed to admit that I have never needed to be pulled out by anything or anyone. You can insult your own ability on the trail, as we both know "who" you think has "no experience".
AGAIN, if you take a Solid Axle and say...snap the passenger side, the cost is FAR LESS than an IFS side. Looking at one of the Pinzgauer website, just the CV boot alone was $200 (um, the solid axle is fixed for about $200), not counting other parts that are necessary. But hey, keep trying to spin your own agenda. I am only looking at the COST ISSUE so far.
I never said "the Pinzgauer was a POS", you're simply looking for a fight. All I said was buying a 25+ year old vehicle right off of the top brings "reliabilty issues" and IDGAF who restored it, it is still a 25+ year old vehicle. Also parts for the Pinzgauer are NOT as plentiful as a Jeep, Early Bronco, FJ series, K5's, etc. This is NOT opinion, it is a fact. If I'm buying a 25+ year old vehicle, I'm getting an Early Bronco especially a 75-77. Why? Perfect size/wheelbase and more available parts. Plus, a 9 inch rear and Dana 44 up front.
I've witnessed plenty of IFS Failures on the trail, from Moab to Michigan. As have others, H2's suck off road (and they do) and H1's are not as "bulletproof" as some claim. Plus, 90% of the trails will not properly accommodate H1's. Most states have width limits on ORV Routes/Trails that are routinely broken by owners of H1's.
You might have seen a lot of stuff, I've done a lot of stuff.
I've broke everything you have said you've seen broke. I've broke longfields in solid axles more times then I care to remember. I've broke the entire A-arm off an IFS truck (baja). I've broke a frame rail clean in half behind the front spring support. Anything can and will break if you are offroading properly.
If you just want to talk costs then price out replacing my fully custom IFS A-arm on my prerunner. Cost me $50 in steel and a few nights in the shop. One cromo longfield on my solid axle truck cost $300+. With 3 psi in 36 inch tires and 100/1 low in my runner I can break treated longfields at will on a simple concrete wall. Does that mean they are junk? Heck no. It's all relative.
Generalizing shows your experience.
Your blanket statements like "H2's suck" are silly. Just cause you saw some youtube vids with H2's breaking tie rods doesn't mean someone out there hasn't built one up properly. The comment "90% of trails won't accommodate H1's" is just laughable. Tell that to my friend who has run just about every major trail in the southwest in his nearly stock H1.
You can argue penz parts are not as plentiful as x, but my point was to simply say there is certainly no shortage. Expensive? Again all relative. You are comparing apples and oranges. The penz is a portal axle, go get a quote on having something like that custom built and get back to me.
I'm not looking for a fight, I'm just saying it's arrogant and ignorant to put down vehicles because of simple reasons like IFS. There is just way way more involved. IFS done right can be stronger than your danas, its a simple matter of cost vs performance. Look at the military where cost is of little concern and performance is at the top of the list, and see what they are running (not just the h1).
If you haven't been pulled out then you haven't been offroading. And if your top choice out of everything available for a 20 year old off road vehicle is a mid 70's ford, then you are really just beyond any help.
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You might have seen a lot of stuff, I've done a lot of stuff.
Generalizing shows your experience.
If you haven't been pulled out then you haven't been offroading.
In short. You aren't as experienced as you claim. You've proven my point. Your constant inability to properly quote people in this thread and constant insults, shows your lack of social skills.
I'll continue to wheel hard, but safely and use the additional knowledge gained from seat time in Rally School.
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This is just getting stupid. You have no idea what my experience is.
Why don't you go over to an offroad forum like pirate4x4 and post some of your opinions, see what kind of responses you get.
Go tell people who have decades of fabrication and offroad experience that their H1's are inadequate because they have IFS or too long of a wheelbase. Or that the penz is not a good offroader because the parts are rare and expensive. I'd love to see the replies you get. :lol
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This is just getting stupid. You have no idea what my experience is.
Why don't you go over to an offroad forum like pirate4x4 and post some of your opinions, see what kind of responses you get.
Go tell people who have decades of fabrication and offroad experience that their H1's are inadequate because they have IFS. Or that the penz is not a good offroader because the parts are expensive. :lol
Pirate4x4.com is nothing but loud mouthed, kindergartners who thinks it's cool to cuss and swear on every third word. Now all of this makes sense. :rofl :rofl :rofl :rofl :rofl :rofl :rofl :rofl :rofl
.....and you know what my experience is? (No, you don't. Which negates your back pedal) But please keep misquoting folks, you obviously have the attention span of my 8 year old son. Whether it is Todd, VonMessa, WideWing, myself, etc., you just have shoddy inter-personal comprehension skills. Learn comprehension, before you attempt to flame others for words they never said and continue to embarrass yourself.
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Or that the penz is not a good offroader because the parts are rare and expensive. I'd love to see the replies you get. :lol
I thought he was just saying that cost issues make it a issues, not that the vehicle sucked.
I am saying that it sucks for all the reasons Vonmessa stated :D I am just a ol'school buy american type kind of guy though.
As far as affordability in a vehicle, my 65 Kaiser parts cost way more than some of the parts your listing just because of the age. But the beauty of owning a JEEP is that I can take parts off of later model and swap into mine. Jeep is just the most versatile off road vehicle IMHO. Keep in mind I am only claiming the pre-1976 Jeeps so I don't want anyone confusing me with someone who drives a yuppy Jeep, because I am driving your grand daddy'd Jeep LMAO my oil pan and the skid plate attached to it probably weigh more than that toyota's engine LMAO :rofl :rofl I have never seen a 4 cylinder with a oil pan drain plug bolt that damn big before, it's like a size 3/4 or 7/8.
In the end we all like the same thing which is wheeling and having fun with friends no matter what we drive.
Todd
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I have the experience to back up my claims. So far your experience is 'rally school', and you are going to sit there and tell me a vehicle "isn't worth the trouble" becuase it has IFS. That car you drove in rally school no doubt had IFS. :rofl
Edit: Never mind, it's not worth it. Keep the rubber side down.
:bolt:
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Still sticking to my guns ( and the OP's)
OP didn't say "Ain't nothin BETTER than a Jeep"
He said "Ain't nothing LIKE a Jeep"
Simple Engrish
Original SUV.
Everyone else is just playing catch-up and improving on an Idea
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I have the experience to back up my claims. So far your experience is 'rally school', and you are going to sit there and tell me a vehicle "isn't worth the trouble" becuase it has IFS. That car you drove in rally school no doubt had IFS. :rofl
Edit: Never mind, it's not worth it. Keep the rubber side down.
:bolt:
It didn't, game over man, game over. I enjoyed watching you try to play the "Wheeling King".
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if i haven't learned anything else in the30 plus years i have been Wheeling,,, i have learned that no matter what it is they drive, theirs, is the best there ever was according to them, even while they are on my hook!
i have been wheeling IFS since 1990, along with strait axle trucks, both have their place, surprisingly in deep pit mud bogging, not 6 inch mud holes, the IFS will eat up the strait axles, and the fastest of them have both ends set up that way, but it is expensive to build them up till they can handle 700 or more horsepower. I know of one being built right now that is all IFS and will have a 600 horsepower turbine in it, with 46 inch tractor tires on it! i am ready to see it run.
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It didn't, game over man, game over. I enjoyed watching you try to play the "Wheeling King".
So what rally car were you driving? What school?
I can't think of any rally car that has a solid front axle.
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If you haven't been pulled out by someone, at some point, you haven't been wheeling hard enough :D
Never been pulled out per se.... Did need help in rolling the CJ-5 upright again. :aok
My regards,
Widewing
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Never been pulled out per se.... Did need help in rolling the CJ-5 upright again. :aok
Closest I've been to flipping a crawler was my CJ-5, that wheelbase is short short short.
BTW I'm predicting now that Masherbrum either doesn't post in this thread again or comes up with some lame excuse as to why he can't remember what car he drove or something like that. Sucks when you get caught in a lie, ;).
Otherwise I'm really looking forward to hearing what 'rally school' teaches driving in a solid axle car! :lol
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Closest I've been to flipping a crawler was my CJ-5, that wheelbase is short short short.
BTW I'm predicting now that Masherbrum either doesn't post in this thread again or comes up with some lame excuse as to why he can't remember what car he drove or something like that. Sucks when you get caught in a lie, ;).
Otherwise I'm really looking forward to hearing what 'rally school' teaches driving in a solid axle car! :lol
Caught in what lie? You've done nothing but spew insults.
Jeep Cherokee btw. I also used one of the schools old Audi 4000's for a couple hours. 3.5 out of the 4 days was spent beating the hell out of their XJ (exceeded 85mph many times, approaching 100+ a few times). Team O'Neil New Hampshire. It was a Xmas present from my parents in 1994.
You couldn't predict a snowstorm for Alaska in January. :x
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I still prefer the H1 hummer ...W00T
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Never been pulled out per se.... Did need help in rolling the CJ-5 upright again. :aok
My regards,
Widewing
Close enough :D
Should've said "If you have ever needed assistance getting back on the trail....
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However, since trading my CJ7 for a lifted ZJ, my chances of getting stuck increase slightly. But I embrace the challenge.
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if you're gonna take ANYTHING off road, a solid front axle is the only way to go.
The US Army disagrees. The Humvee is IFS. :D
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Incidently, this comparison of Jeep Wranglers and FJ Cruisers is rediculous. It's like comparing apples to oranges.
Now, an FJ-40 vs a Wrangler is an apples to apples comparison.
The Jeep Liberty vs FJ Cruiser is an apples to apples comparison.
Good comparison of all 4 in this class here:
http://www.motortrend.com/roadtests/suvs/112_0604_midsize_suv_comparison/conclusion.html
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Masherbrum,
You took 'rally school' over 15 years ago in a non rally car. I take it they basically they 'taught' you how to drive a truck fast offroad?
I've never even heard of a jeep being used as a 'rally car', but whatever...
4 days of driving a truck around 15 years ago does not give you the 'experience' to say "IFS is not worth the trouble".
You want to get into a pissing match about experience, saying I have none? I raced rally cars for 5 years in the south west (yes real rally cars, BMW 2002's and a Subaru Impreza). Before that I preran the rally courses in my custom built prerunner. I've rock crawled all the trails you've read about in the magazines and more technical ones you've never heard of. And I've done 95% or more of all the fabrication on the vehicles myself.
I DO have the experience to say, if done right, IFS and even fully independent suspension DOES have it's place in the offroad world.
You can argue all you want, you just look more and more like you have no clue.
But I keep forgetting, you are the guy who said you would pick a mid 70's ford over anything else 20 years old to take offroad. :rofl
I guess some people are just beyond help...
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Incidently, this comparison of Jeep Wranglers and FJ Cruisers is rediculous. It's like comparing apples to oranges.
Rip, most of what is being compared in this thread is apples and oranges, and it's all ridiculous.
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Jeep
Land Rover
Chevy
Ford
Dodge
Penzgreuwhatever
Toyota
Isuzu
Etc....
Only one of the names listed above is legendary. :aok
Todd :rock
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Jeep
Land Rover
Chevy
Ford
Dodge
Penzgreuwhatever
Toyota
Isuzu
Etc....
Only one of the names listed above is legendary. :aok
Todd :rock
O|||||||O
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Jeep
Land Rover
Chevy
Ford
Dodge
Penzgreuwhatever
Toyota
Isuzu
Etc....
Only one of the names listed above is legendary. :aok
Todd :rock
Perhaps in the USA, but globally speaking the Land Cruiser is legendary in places like the Middle Eastern, South East Asian and South American markets with the capabilities of the Land Cruiser - all regions offering large and uncultured landscapes for the 4x4 monster to make itself indispensible.
in July 1951, the first Toyota Land Cruiser negotiated the trail up Japan's 12388-foot Mt. Fuji all the way to Checkpoint 6 (there are 10 checkpoints on the trail to the summit), venturing further up the mountain than any motor vehicle had ever been, inlcuding the Jeep. The Land Cruiser, known as the BJ after 1954, was Toyota's first 4x4 utility vehicle. Like the Jeep, it was originally intended for use only by military, government, forestry and utility agencies. The US Government contracted Toyota to supply Land Cruisers to the Korean War effort.
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in July 1951, the first Toyota Land Cruiser negotiated the trail up Japan's 12388-foot Mt. Fuji all the way to Checkpoint 6 (there are 10 checkpoints on the trail to the summit), venturing further up the mountain than any motor vehicle had ever been, inlcuding the Jeep.
Negotiating is part vehicle and part driver. Was it the same driver for both rigs? If not, its not a true test...
I couldn't tell you how many times Ive seen guys that dont know when to stay in 4 High or go to 4 low range
Kam
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Id give my Left Gonad for 1 of theses...
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fy4rIUJ5sPg&feature=related
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Eqx6ONBA8MQ
OH BTW all you High Lift guys..Notice the LOW Cg on theses rigs...and wheel base
KAM
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Perhaps in the USA, but globally speaking the Land Cruiser is legendary in places like the Middle Eastern, South East Asian and South American markets with the capabilities of the Land Cruiser - all regions offering large and uncultured landscapes for the 4x4 monster to make itself indispensible.
You do realize that they have been building Jeeps in other countries for years now. The last country to buy the rights to the Jeep and start production was India. Climbing some mountain in your land cruiser does not make you legendary, Helping win a war does. The durability of the Jeep in itself is legendary as they have a reputation for being very dependable. If the land cruiser was so dependable the US post office would have bought those instead of the Jeep.
In the end you can try to compare any other vehicle to a Jeep but it won't stack up in durability, dependability, and affordability!
Todd
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Jeep
Land Rover
Chevy
Ford
Dodge
Penzgreuwhatever
Toyota
Isuzu
Etc....
Only one of the names listed above is legendary. :aok
Todd :rock
Really?
lets see,
Ford= Henry Ford first to build cars and trucks in an assembly line, most refer to him as the father of the modern automobile, nothing legendary about that?
Jeep= John North Willys buys the Overland Automotive Division of Standard Wheel Company. Working from a Bantam Car Company design, Willys contracts to build military Jeeps.Kaiser buys Willys-Overland and changes name to Willys Motor Company.1963 Company changes name to Kaiser-Jeep corporation. 1970 American Motors Corporation takes over Kaiser-Jeep. 1987 American Motors is purchased by the Chrysler Corporation.
Dodge=The Dodge brothers, John and Horace originated the company in Detroit, Michigan. These brothers were early stockholders and engine builders for Ford Motor Co. before producing their first car in November 1914. the Dodge 4, a tough automobile accepted by the American army. It was used in General Pershing's battles into Mexico in 1914, while also used in World War I as ambulances or staff cars. Also looks as if they kept Jeep from going under. nothing legendary there?
Chevy=Louis Chevrolet ,With little in the way of a formal education, Chevrolet learned car design while working for Buick and started designing his own engine for a new car in 1909.Known to many as the father of Racing as we know it today.William Durant founded the Chevrolet Motor company in 1911 after being forced out of General Motors in 1910. He had also founded that company. Mr Durant founded the Chevrolet Motor Company in partnership with famous race car driver Louis Chevrolet. 1915 marked the start of the Chevy - Ford competitive age that lasts to this day! in 1917 Chevrolet introduces the V-8 This steady stream of innovative automotive designs continued through the following decades making GM and Chevrolet major players in the automotive industry. nothing legendary there?
Land Rover=September 1947 The 'Land Rover' project was made official. Board Meeting minutes describe it as "the all-purpose vehicle on the lines of the Willys-Overland post-war Jeep was the most desirable" using the P3 engine, gearbox, and back axle. In reality the first prototypes were already running, with design work starting in spring 1947. British version of the Jeep! nothing legendary there i will agree, but thanks to them , Jeep is what it is today, thru competition in innovation.
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You do realize that they have been building Jeeps in other countries for years now. The last country to buy the rights to the Jeep and start production was India. Climbing some mountain in your land cruiser does not make you legendary, Helping win a war does. The durability of the Jeep in itself is legendary as they have a reputation for being very dependable. If the land cruiser was so dependable the US post office would have bought those instead of the Jeep.
In the end you can try to compare any other vehicle to a Jeep but it won't stack up in durability, dependability, and affordability!
Todd
I won't debate your opinion one bit! ;)
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Negotiating is part vehicle and part driver. Was it the same driver for both rigs? If not, its not a true test...
I couldn't tell you how many times Ive seen guys that dont know when to stay in 4 High or go to 4 low range
Kam
I agree 100%. With that said, the Jeep couldn't compete with the BJ back then. The Toyota Jeep BJ was larger than the original U.S. Jeep and more powerful thanks to its Type B 3.4-liter six-cylinder OHV Gasoline engine which generated 85 hp (63 kW) at 3600 rpm and 215 N·m (159 lb·ft) torque at 1600 rpm. It had a part-time four-wheel drive system like the Jeep. Unlike the Jeep, however, the Jeep BJ had no low-range transfer case yet made it to that Check Point 6 without the low range. The American-made Willis Jeep made it to Check Point 5. ;)
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Toyota Hilux - 100s of african warlords cant be wrong ;)
always wondered why pretty much all you see in africa are Hilux, Landcruisers, Nissan Patrols and really old Land Rovers, would have expected more Jeeps.
no ones mentioned the most capable/fun offroader that ive driven, the legendary Unimog :rock
edit: the mog deserves some pics so:
this is very like the one I drove, recovered numerous bogged down tractors with it including amassive articulated Ford County :o
(http://www.theautolog.com/uploads/njerick/773/Unimog_012.jpg)
they pull like a train. literally :D
(http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/4/4e/Unimog_1400_Utrecht_Terwijde_27-03-2007.jpg/800px-Unimog_1400_Utrecht_Terwijde_27-03-2007.jpg)
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I still like Land Rovers. Even the old Series I, II and III's are capable and still in use today. I still enjoy the D90's from 1997 with the V8.
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I still like Land Rovers. Even the old Series I, II and III's are capable and still in use today. I still enjoy the D90's from 1997 with the V8.
there's a couple land rovers running around here with those silly air intakes....the ones that come out of the fender, go up along the "A" pillar, and then have a forward facing scoop.
funniest thing i've ever seen!! 'specially knowing who's drivin em, and knowing they'll never be in more than a couple inches of water. :rofl
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Thought you all might enjoy this Jeep photo:
http://i14.photobucket.com/albums/a310/RdThomas/Jeep%20Anti-theft/Anti-theft25.jpg
Todd
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:rofl
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Negotiating is part vehicle and part driver. Was it the same driver for both rigs? If not, its not a true test...
I couldn't tell you how many times Ive seen guys that dont know when to stay in 4 High or go to 4 low range
Kam
How about guys who feel that they have to lock the differentials every time they roll onto dirt? Only the most difficult and technical terrain requires locking the diffs. Locking them means being in low range, where low range may not be the best. Last summer, I came across some genius plodding along on the beach with his Jeep TJ Rubicon, diffs locked in 4 Low (4 wheel drive, low range). I drove past him going a good 15 mph faster. What was amusing to me was, I was in 2 High (2 wheel drive, high range).
How about the idiots who air down to below 5 PSI for deep snow. 5 PSI is, essentially, flat. Not good for the sidewalls, and a sure fire way to pop a bead off the wheel. Can't fix stupid, so just enjoy the knuckleheads.
You can meet some really nice folks on trails. Many are savvy off-roaders and technically capable. On the other hand, you're just as likely to meet some of the dumbest people on earth there as well. It only takes about 5 minutes to learn who is what.
My regards,
Widewing
-
Jeep
Land Rover
Chevy
Ford
Dodge
Penzgreuwhatever
Toyota
Isuzu
Etc....
Only one of the names listed above is legendary. :aok
Todd :rock
You do realize that they have been building Jeeps in other countries for years now. The last country to buy the rights to the Jeep and start production was India. Climbing some mountain in your land cruiser does not make you legendary, Helping win a war does. The durability of the Jeep in itself is legendary as they have a reputation for being very dependable. If the land cruiser was so dependable the US post office would have bought those instead of the Jeep.
In the end you can try to compare any other vehicle to a Jeep but it won't stack up in durability, dependability, and affordability!
Todd
Jeep = Legendary?!? REAALLY Talk about WW2 all you want, but Willy's was a whole different animal from the Chrysler.
Affordable... ... come on... $30k+ for a Rubicon is affordable?!? It's a square box with a plastic roof, a Chrysler engine, and D30 D35 axles. That's highway robbery.
Reliable... ... It's been by experience that Chrysler drivetrains rank near the bottom of the pack when it comes to reliability.
The Post Office :rofl :rofl :rofl The P.O. buys Jeep because the HAVE to buy American, and it's not just Jeep, the Federal Gov. buys Ford Explorers, and Suburbans too.
It is ignorant statements like that from Jeep owners, that is the reason I indulge in some good natured ragging on Jeeps. :rolleyes:
Go someplace like Iceland were they build rigs to drive up snow laden volcanoes and glaciers. You'll see things like the Nissan Patrol, Toyota Hi-Lux and Land Cruiser, Isuzu Trooper, and Defenders greatly outnumber Jeeps.
How many African Safari vehicles do you see that are Jeeps? Mostly Toyota's and Range Rover I see.
What did Top Gear drive to the North Pole? Ohh yeah... a Hi-Lux NOT A JEEP
Jeep would be dead by now if the government hadn't bailed out Chrysler. Jeeps may be popular in the USA with all the "follow the crowd" sheeple, most of whom never even see a dirt road in one. But worldwide they are vastly outnumbered by many other SUV brands. I'd hardly call that legendary.
Don't get me wrong Jeeps are a very capable off-road vehicle (when they work :D ). And I don't snub or turn up my nose at anybody I see on the trail, no matter what they are driving, as long as they are having fun, and being responsible, it's all good. It just seems that many uniformed folks think they are an off-road superstar just because they own a Jeep, even if the most challenging thing they've seen is a muddy farm road. They are gullible and have fallen for the clever marketing of Jeep, while being completely ignorant of the many other capable off-road vehicles. Knowledgeable people like Widewing are obviously excluded from this generalization ;).
BTW I met a guy the other day who leads EJS trails in his Isuzu VehiCross. He said the Jeep people usually make fun of him and his VX, till he pulls 3-4 of them out every trip. :aok
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How about guys who feel that they have to lock the differentials every time they roll onto dirt? Only the most difficult and technical terrain requires locking the diffs. Locking them means being in low range, where low range may not be the best. Last summer, I came across some genius plodding along on the beach with his Jeep TJ Rubicon, diffs locked in 4 Low (4 wheel drive, low range). I drove past him going a good 15 mph faster. What was amusing to me was, I was in 2 High (2 wheel drive, high range).
How about the idiots who air down to below 5 PSI for deep snow. 5 PSI is, essentially, flat. Not good for the sidewalls, and a sure fire way to pop a bead off the wheel. Can't fix stupid, so just enjoy the knuckleheads.
You can meet some really nice folks on trails. Many are savvy off-roaders and technically capable. On the other hand, you're just as likely to meet some of the dumbest people on earth there as well. It only takes about 5 minutes to learn who is what.
My regards,
Widewing
So true, I drive a lot of FS roads and cross-country through the Sagebrush in WY in the summer. One time I had a kid from Texas with me while we were going off trail across sagebrush in a Dodge 3/4 ton. 4wd was not needed, only enough clearance to not get hung up on sagebrush or rocks.
He says. "Wow, I really wish my Ranger was 4wd so I could so I could do stuff like this!!"
Me "You could probably do this in your Ranger, you know I've been in 2wd the whole time."
Him "Really!!"
Me "Yea, you don't have as much clearance as this truck, so you'd have to be more careful of rocks and big bushes, but you could make it."
Him "I'm not sure, I'd think I'd be more comfortable if you put it in 4wd now... ... please."
Me "No, we're fine."
Him "Come on, I don't wanna get stuck out here."
We didn't get stuck.
One of my big annoyances is people who drive far to fast on snowy and slick roads because they have 4wd. They think they are infallible because they are in 4wd, without realizing that even with 4wd, your still only stopping with 4 wheels, and those big heavy Suburbans and trucks they drive will take longer to stop on an icy road then a small front wheel drive car. I'll be going 35 mph on a slushy highway in a blizzard and some soccer mom in a Suburban will pass me doing 60. I always wanna smack those idiots.
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strange thing, I never see jeeps around here (apart from the odd 90s cherokee) then yesterday saw a wrangler and a willys MB on the road within 10 minutes :)
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How about guys who feel that they have to lock the differentials every time they roll onto dirt? Only the most difficult and technical terrain requires locking the diffs. Locking them means being in low range, where low range may not be the best. Last summer, I came across some genius plodding along on the beach with his Jeep TJ Rubicon, diffs locked in 4 Low (4 wheel drive, low range). I drove past him going a good 15 mph faster. What was amusing to me was, I was in 2 High (2 wheel drive, high range).
How about the idiots who air down to below 5 PSI for deep snow. 5 PSI is, essentially, flat. Not good for the sidewalls, and a sure fire way to pop a bead off the wheel. Can't fix stupid, so just enjoy the knuckleheads.
You can meet some really nice folks on trails. Many are savvy off-roaders and technically capable. On the other hand, you're just as likely to meet some of the dumbest people on earth there as well. It only takes about 5 minutes to learn who is what.
My regards,
Widewing
my chevy had warn hubs on it. when i took it off road, i'd lock the hubs, so that if i needed 4 wheel drive, i didn't hafta get out.
rarely ever needed it. that's the nice thing about a chevy, and posi rears. :aok
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I have no choice, my ZJ is full time FWD until I swap the T-Case out. :frown:
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Jeep = Legendary Willy's was a whole different animal from the Chrysler.
If you would have read more you will have noticed that I said I don't claim the yuppie newer Jeeps. My Jeep is a 1965 Kaiser Willys and it will go any where that any of those vehicles will go plus side ways in a one car garage.
It's a Jeep thing is a life style that many enjoy.
Did you look at the photo at all?
Todd
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If you would have read more you will have noticed that I said I don't claim the yuppie newer Jeeps. My Jeep is a 1965 Kaiser Willys and it will go any where that any of those vehicles will go plus side ways in a one car garage.
It's a Jeep thing is a life style that many enjoy.
Did you look at the photo at all?
Todd
I owned a 1963 Kaiser-Willys CJ-5. The old flat head four was replaced with an 245 hp intercooled, turbocharged V6 salvaged from a wrecked 1986 Buick Grand National. Suspension lift, body lift and 35" Cepeks. Welded-in roll cage, Rancho shocks and dual steering dampers. Not only was it scary fast, it could climb a tree.... Gas it up to 4,000 RPM, dump the clutch and you could yank the front wheels two feet off the ground.
My next 4x4 was a Suzuki Sidekick 4dr. Cheap, reliable all-weather transportation. On the beach, it was flawless. Light enough that you didn't have to air down. I bought a used '92 YJ, with a 1.5" lift and 30" BFGs. Primarily used as a beach rig. After my kids were grown and on their own, I bought a 2008 Wrangler. My wife drives a 2009 Suzuki Grand Vitara. This SUV is often beat-up in the car magazines as being too truck-like. It is, however, quite capable off road.
Really, it doesn't matter what your ride is. If you enjoy wheeling, buy or build what you can afford. If you need it as a daily driver, don't go nuts with the mods.
My '08 Wrangler is my daily driver. So, it will not get lifted. Upgrading to 33" tires and some additional armor is pretty much my limit.
My regards,
Widewing
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I owned a 1963 Kaiser-Willys CJ-5. The old flat head four was replaced with an 245 hp intercooled, turbocharged V6 salvaged from a wrecked 1986 Buick Grand National. Suspension lift, body lift and 35" Cepeks. Welded-in roll cage, Rancho shocks and dual steering dampers. Not only was it scary fast, it could climb a tree.... Gas it up to 4,000 RPM, dump the clutch and you could yank the front wheels two feet off the ground.
My regards,
Widewing
What would make someone not own the beast in which you have described?
Todd :bolt:
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Found out some other things Jeeps can do
Put out your fire
(http://i260.photobucket.com/albums/ii34/JadgTankker/c1d4b24b.jpg)
Lay some pipe
(http://i260.photobucket.com/albums/ii34/JadgTankker/c1d4bd3b.jpg)
Plow your field
(http://i260.photobucket.com/albums/ii34/JadgTankker/1a09b42b.jpg)
take you to the best spot at the lake!
(http://i260.photobucket.com/albums/ii34/JadgTankker/cc067f8b.jpg)
take a short cut after a long day at work
(http://i260.photobucket.com/albums/ii34/JadgTankker/19cd818b.jpg)
or winning a bet!
(http://i260.photobucket.com/albums/ii34/JadgTankker/19ca14ab.jpg)
there really isn't much a Jeep cannot do is there? :D :x :joystick: :cheers:
Todd
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Jeep = Legendary?!? REAALLY Talk about WW2 all you want, but Willy's was a whole different animal from the Chrysler.
Affordable... ... come on... $30k+ for a Rubicon is affordable?!? It's a square box with a plastic roof, a Chrysler engine, and D30 D35 axles. That's highway robbery.
Reliable... ... It's been by experience that Chrysler drivetrains rank near the bottom of the pack when it comes to reliability.
Since 2007, Rubicons have D44 axles front and rear. All other Wranglers have D44 rear and D30 front. That plastic roof has detachable panels and comes completely off in about 10 minutes. Mine comes off next month, and I'll install the Trektop soft top. The doors are removable (both off in about 5 minutes).
Rubicons are quite specialized. Locking diffs, 4/1 RockTrac crawl ratio transfer case. Electric sway bar disconnect. 32" BFG KM2 tires. Amazing "Yes" fabric seats.
As to reliability, no trouble whatsoever with my JK. The current 3.8 V6 is bulletproof. The Pentastar engine due for 2011 should be outstanding. Finally, the Wrangler will have more power than an Xterra and considerably more than the FJ Cruiser.
The down side is that being so specialized, the Rubicon is not the most pleasant vehicle for road use. Yesterday, I drove my JK 300 miles (family funeral). I drove much of it with the roof panels off. When I got home, I was thinking that I should have taken my wife's SUV instead. My JK has the same springs and shocks as the Rubicon. So, the ride is considerably more stiff than that of a Wrangler Sport. The combination of rough ride, wind, noise and sun glare... It leaves you more fatigued than would be the case in more road friendly SUV.
My regards,
Widewing
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This thread is funny, the ironic part is my wife and I are down in VA right now getting ready for tomorrows ride (with about 6 other JK's) into GWNF.
Sorry, but some of the thread replys I have read so far must have been written by those who must think "Big Wheeling" is parking on the Snow Bank at Work. Or, the ones who park on the parking lot curb islands at Wal-Mart.
You could have the argument until hell freezes over about what and which is better. However, like Smokey Yunick used to say while building race cars 'How Fast Do You Want to Spend".
Dollar for Dollar (BTW, 30K is very reasonable) the new JK among the most competent Swiss-Army Knife type on-off road vehicles ever built. Sure if given the option, I'd dream of having a new L/R Deffy. If I was going across the Kalahari I'd take a Land Cruiser. But, for a very reasonable uber capable vehicle you cant beat it. I started with a base X equipped with nothing but posi and a/c. It's grown up majorly since then as has my skills. Plus the memories, friends and adventures we have and will have with this Jeep are priceless.
Pretty much this sums up uber Jeep fun now. Wheeling through new territory with friends, guided only by an NPS or Topo map, trying new trails, finding new great places to set up and camp
(http://hphotos-snc1.fbcdn.net/hs272.snc1/9924_1232217326607_1264355985_30680839_7125184_n.jpg)
The other wonderful thing is building it as you go
I started here
(http://photos-d.ak.fbcdn.net/hphotos-ak-snc1/hs181.snc1/6014_1213121009211_1264355985_30615704_3361121_n.jpg)
And Getting to here, along with all carnage, fabrication and learning was all part of the fun
(http://hphotos-snc1.fbcdn.net/hs161.snc1/6014_1216255007559_1264355985_30625864_2284925_n.jpg)
I will say there are now an ass-ton of Pavement Princess/ Mall-Crawler Jeeps. Same Suburban Commando demographic as a large part of the H-D crowd. The group that squeakes endlessly about wind-noise and water leaks. That makes me laugh
For fun, our windshield banner says "I'm not a pavement princess, Im a Jeep I do Jeep toejam"
(http://hphotos-snc1.fbcdn.net/hs252.snc1/9924_1242275138046_1264355985_30712472_7547006_n.jpg)
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The other night a fellow Jeep owner told me this:
The only people who know anything about Jeeps are the people who work on them!
Todd
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i will stay with my Chevy thank you!
(http://i249.photobucket.com/albums/gg229/WWhiskey/90d2.jpg)
but don't get me wrong i like jeeps, just not enough to own one!
(http://i249.photobucket.com/albums/gg229/WWhiskey/2.jpg)
that was my last daily driver
and this is my last river truck
(http://i249.photobucket.com/albums/gg229/WWhiskey/scan0001.jpg)
this is where i play
(http://i249.photobucket.com/albums/gg229/WWhiskey/mud024.jpg)
and one of my buddies jeeps
(http://i249.photobucket.com/albums/gg229/WWhiskey/100b4900.jpg)
a chevy on the same hill
(http://i249.photobucket.com/albums/gg229/WWhiskey/100_5040.jpg)
even the VW made it!
(http://i249.photobucket.com/albums/gg229/WWhiskey/100b4820.jpg)
come on over to my river, and bring your jeeps,, i promise we will drag them back out after you get them hung up or sunk! :aok
and if you don't get hung up,,,,well welcome to the party, now who brought the steaks?
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I feel I should clarify that I'm not dishing on Jeeps really. I agree they are very capable vehicles, and according to Widewing they have made huge strides in reliability/durability since the early/mid 90's ones I saw break down so often. I even considered Cherokees before I got my Rodeo, but was not impressed with the ones I looked at, 2 had doors that didn't close properly, one had a rear end waaay out of alignment (probably bent) and I just didn't like the interior, also I just like to be a little different.
I just think that Todds opinion of them is WAAAYY over-inflated, and he needs to come back to reality. (that outa get him worked up :devil ) Also Jeeps are sooooo popular around here that there is a higher percentage of idiots driving them, the kind who think they are an off-road superstar because they just got a Jeep, never mind their complete lack of skill and knowledge. Which makes them easy targets to poke fun at when they get hopelessly stuck trying something completely asinine. For me it's all in good fun though, I mean nothing malicious at all.
Like I said I really don't care if your wheeling in a Kia, as long as you having fun, and being responsible. Which is why I'll never go to EJS again, I've never seen so many irresponsible jerks in my life as I did the one time I went. Just a bunch of rowdy, crude, rude, drunk irresponsible morons, and YES they were mostly driving Jeeps which HAS tainted my opinion of them.
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(http://i249.photobucket.com/albums/gg229/WWhiskey/100b4820.jpg)
Now that's cool. I saw a bug once that a guy had shoehorned a Ford 460 block into. Looked goofy with the wheelie bars, and a radiator basically duct taped to the front, but man, that thing was a wheelie machine!
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i will stay with my Chevy thank you!
come on over to my river, and bring your jeeps,, i promise we will drag them back out after you get them hung up or sunk! :aok
and if you don't get hung up,,,,well welcome to the party, now who brought the steaks?
Except for the Silverado, everything else is a specialized vehicle. Remember, we're talking factory stock. Chevy has nothing that can compete with any version of the the JK Wrangler, as delivered. Nothing. Ford offers their new Raptor, but that is basically a desert truck. Drive into a field of rocks and it isn't going far. Get it into deep mud and it'll be staying there.
As it is, every one of those "river" trucks looks like it would roll over quicker than a hooker with hemorrhoids.
None of them look as if they have much in terms of articulation.
My regards,
Widewing
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Except for the Silverado, everything else is a specialized vehicle. Remember, we're talking factory stock. Chevy has nothing that can compete with any version of the the JK Wrangler, as delivered. Nothing. Ford offers their new Raptor, but that is basically a desert truck. Drive into a field of rocks and it isn't going far. Get it into deep mud and it'll be staying there.
As it is, every one of those "river" trucks looks like it would roll over quicker than a hooker with hemorrhoids.
yet the only one that did, was the jeep!!!
None of them look as if they have much in terms of articulation.
My regards,
Widewing
(http://i249.photobucket.com/albums/gg229/WWhiskey/mychevy.jpg)
I would put my 09 "stock" pickup,up against it and we could see who comes out on top!
one place i know of, called "the stairs" i have never seen a stock jeep go up, at any angle, yet my stock chevy drives up it without slipping a tire, as for mud my tires are not all that great (stock never are) but it does very well, and my 38 years of driving on the farm thru the mud, snow and just about anything else, would probably still play a big factor,,, my years of mud racing might also be a problem for the jeep and i have spent almost as long climbing everything except the big rocks!!
now having said that, i am not gonna go beat my nice new Chevy up proving my point, and if you want to beat your new jeep to death doing the same then your pockets are deeper than mine !
that's why we give the Rubicons such grief,,,, most of the "kids" that bring them out are too stupid to understand, to be the best, to climb the big hills, to go thru the deep mud, chances are you will still break it, and that chance grows profoundly as there skill level decreases, and even more when it's daddy's money as well.
I like the Jeeps! i really do, but to go and four wheel like i like to, I am not going to spend that amount of money on a new Rubicon, only to know it will break when i can spend 6 or 8 thousand and build a river truck that will go anywhere i want to go, while the "stock" jeeps, sit and watch or wait to be pulled along!
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my favorite thing about jeeps, is that i make lots of money off of them when they break down. :aok
and they do a lot. :bolt:
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I would put my 09 "stock" pickup,up against it and we could see who comes out on top!
That's akin to saying, "let's jump off the roof and see if it hurts." A Silverado is a top notch pickup. It is, however, utterly outclassed by a JK Rubicon off road. Hell, if you saw the video at the beginning of this thread, you would see a stock Wrangler Sahara climb a 5' rock face. Here's the video again..
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=W1nflfygI3M (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=W1nflfygI3M)
This is a stock Sahara, no lockers. Street tires. A Rubicon with lockers and KM2s would have made it look easy. Your Silverado.... Zero chance.
I believe that the Jeep Nation off road club out of San Antonio has an event planned for a weekend this summer at the Canadian River Bridge, not far from you. Look them up and ask to join them on their ride. :aok
Also, Project JK has a Texas chapter. I can give you some contacts if you want to go out with them.
My regards,
Widewing
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(http://i249.photobucket.com/albums/gg229/WWhiskey/mychevy.jpg)
I would put my 09 "stock" pickup,up against it and we could see who comes out on top!
one place i know of, called "the stairs" i have never seen a stock jeep go up, at any angle, yet my stock chevy drives up it without slipping a tire,
I'm a gonna side with Widewing on this one, 90% of pickups do not have the approach/departure angles to go places a Wrangler could go. Those Jeep drivers must not be any good if they can't follow a pickup (with a much worse approach angle, and longer wheelbase) up some steps Pickup trucks are not designed as off-road fun vehicles, they are designed as work vehicles. Take pride if you want that your Chevy can haul more, or tow more then a Jeep, but it's not designed for serious off-roading like a Jeep.
As for that "river truck" I too think it looks a little over the top ridiculous. Over the top ridiculous works for me on a Beetle, but not on a Jimmy.
None of them look as if they have much in terms of articulation.
My regards,
Widewing
Keep in mind if all your doing is slogging through mud bogs and rivers you don't really need articulation, or low gearing, just big huge swampers and gobs of power.
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Hell, if you saw the video at the beginning of this thread, you would see a stock Wrangler Sahara climb a 5' rock face. Here's the video again..
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=W1nflfygI3M (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=W1nflfygI3M)
This is a stock Sahara, no lockers. Street tires. A Rubicon with lockers and KM2s would have made it look easy. Your Silverado.... Zero chance.
My regards,
Widewing
I agree a Wrangler out performs a Chevy off-road Widewing. BUT I just hafta say that I'm not that impressed with that video you tout so highly. I mean come on, his right side was right of the step and had easy traction, with no step, and his spotter made a rock ramp for him on the left side, pile up enough rocks and you could drive that in a Prius. With the rocks placed there for the Jeep, I think most stock small SUVs could drive that line, 4Runners, FJs, Broncos, Blazers, Xterras, Rodeos, RS Troopers, Samurais, Pathfinders, Raiders I'd bet any of them (with a decent driver and spotter) could do that line as the Jeep did it. Only reason I see a Silverado couldn't make that is getting hung up due to the long wheelbase. I fail to see what's so impressive about it.
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I agree a Wrangler out performs a Chevy off-road Widewing. BUT I just hafta say that I'm not that impressed with that video you tout so highly. I mean come on, his right side was right of the step and had easy traction, with no step, and his spotter made a rock ramp for him on the left side, pile up enough rocks and you could drive that in a Prius. With the rocks placed there for the Jeep, I think most stock small SUVs could drive that line, 4Runners, FJs, Broncos, Blazers, Xterras, Rodeos, RS Troopers, Samurais, Pathfinders, Raiders I'd bet any of them (with a decent driver and spotter) could do that line as the Jeep did it. Only reason I see a Silverado couldn't make that is getting hung up due to the long wheelbase. I fail to see what's so impressive about it.
That Sahara has a 44.6 degree approach angle running 32s. Not one of the currently produced vehicles listed above does better than 32 degrees. That means they can't even get a wheel on the rock before crashing the bumper or valance. None come close to the Jeep's ground clearance and break over angle. So, none could get the wheels on the rock. All would bottom badly, and require a huge pile of rocks to get clearance. Finally, each would hang up on their rear bumpers. I have doubts that any of the others listed (except maybe the Samurai) have the approach angle required to even get a wheel on the rock.
By the way, the biggest problem for the Silverado would be destroying its bumper just trying to get the wheels on the rock. He doesn't have to worry about the long wheel base high-centering. The Silverado will never get that far.
FJ Cruiser approach/departure angles: 32°/30° 9.1" of ground clearance.
Xterra approach/departure angles: 30.5°/27.3° 9.5" of ground clearance.
Pathfinder approach/departure angles: 29.8°/24.3° 9.0" of ground clearance (virtually the same as a lowly Patriot).
Sahara approach/departure angles: 44.6°/40.6° 10.3" of ground clearance (10.4" for a Sport on Goodyears, and 10.2" for a Rubicon on BFG KM2s).
My regards,
Widewing
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That Sahara has a 44.6 degree approach angle running 32s. Not one of the currently produced vehicles listed above does better than 32 degrees. That means they can't even get a wheel on the rock before crashing the bumper or valance. None come close to the Jeep's ground clearance and break over angle. So, none could get the wheels on the rock. All would bottom badly, and require a huge pile of rocks to get clearance. Finally, each would hang up on their rear bumpers. I have doubts that any of the others listed (except maybe the Samurai) have the approach angle required to even get a wheel on the rock.
By the way, the biggest problem for the Silverado would be destroying its bumper just trying to get the wheels on the rock. He doesn't have to worry about the long wheel base high-centering. The Silverado will never get that far.
FJ Cruiser approach/departure angles: 32°/30° 9.1" of ground clearance.
Xterra approach/departure angles: 30.5°/27.3° 9.5" of ground clearance.
Pathfinder approach/departure angles: 29.8°/24.3° 9.0" of ground clearance (virtually the same as a lowly Patriot).
Sahara approach/departure angles: 44.6°/40.6° 10.3" of ground clearance (10.4" for a Sport on Goodyears, and 10.2" for a Rubicon on BFG KM2s).
My regards,
Widewing
You miss my point, with the rocks the guy placed there to ramp his left side up, a great approach angle is no longer needed. The Jeep used those rocks, why can't everyone else. Sure a Pathfinder or Xterra might need one more rock there then the Jeep, and they might drag the rear bumper a bit, but they'd still make it I think. I just don't see what's so extraordinary about what that Jeep did there. That looks less difficult to me then the Golden Crack, or Top of the World trail in Moab which thousands of Jeeps and Hummers and Toyotas and everything else do every year. I've done Top of the World in my Rodeo, it has several steps comparable to that with rocks strewn about that folks use to cheat, I don't feel bad about using them. (I'm not yet stupid enough to try the crack without a front locker though)
I mean no offense, maybe I should be impressed, but I'm just not. I guess the whole rock pile thing ruined it for me. He shoulda just dragged it up there on its frame with the back left wheel just hanging, that would be more impressive.
"Currently produced vehicles" what's with that, are we no longer allowed to drive older vehicles, how come you throw those out of the equation? I guarantee a '68 Bronco or Scout on 32s could drive right up that.
BTW does the Sahara come stock with 32" tires. The ones I see around town look more like 235/55-16s or maybe 245/70s. I know I see a lot of Wranglers around with tires that are definitely 30" or smaller.
Anyway I'm gonna ignore this thread now, I don't want to argue, like I said I'm not ripping on Jeeps really. I honestly don't care what people drive, I care what they do, and how they act.
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I have a '94 XJ and an '04 TJ.
On more than a few occasions I have been asked how do I like owning/ driving a Jeep.
My reply is pretty much that I love them and that I dont think a person can go wrong buying a jeep if its truly a vehicle they are interested in. It'll go pretty much anywhere you want it to go and in almost any kind of weather. Providing its driven within its limits, its not the death trap folks want to make it out to be.
I dont know how long I'm destined to walk this earth, but for however long it is, I plan on owning a Jeep.
Not to sound cliche, Its a Jeep thing I guess.
Folks either like or dont like them.
wolfy
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(http://www.moginalong.co.uk/OurMog/Images/Unimog-Approach-Departure-Angles.jpg)
... with 60deg articulation between the axles and a few tonnes of stuff in the back :rock
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You miss my point, with the rocks the guy placed there to ramp his left side up, a great approach angle is no longer needed. The Jeep used those rocks, why can't everyone else. Sure a Pathfinder or Xterra might need one more rock there then the Jeep, and they might drag the rear bumper a bit, but they'd still make it I think. I just don't see what's so extraordinary about what that Jeep did there. That looks less difficult to me then the Golden Crack, or Top of the World trail in Moab which thousands of Jeeps and Hummers and Toyotas and everything else do every year. I've done Top of the World in my Rodeo, it has several steps comparable to that with rocks strewn about that folks use to cheat, I don't feel bad about using them. (I'm not yet stupid enough to try the crack without a front locker though)
I didn't miss your point at all. I simply pointed out that stacking rocks will not help if you can't get a wheel up on the rock in the first place. Approach angle is key to getting your wheels on the rock face. None of the current vehicles you mentioned have enough approach angle. It's simple geometry. The only way they could do it is to stack rocks in steps a few feet high. Then, once they get the front wheels up, they would have to reset the stepped rocks to get the rear tires high enough to clear the frame and rear bumper. In short, they would directed to the bypass by the spotters. Wranglers drive the Golden Crack without lockers. Jeep's patented BLD is more than enough. Moab's Top of the World trail is rated as a 3 for difficulty. Jeep's Trail Rated system uses a 5 difficulty rating as the minimum. In other words, any Jeep model bearing the Trail Rated badge was tested and certified on terrain rated no less than a difficulty of 5 without damage to the vehicle. That comes directly from Loren Trotter. Loren is an engineer in Active Chassis Control Systems, and a very active off-roader.
I mean no offense, maybe I should be impressed, but I'm just not. I guess the whole rock pile thing ruined it for me. He shoulda just dragged it up there on its frame with the back left wheel just hanging, that would be more impressive.
It is obvious that the Sahara driver is a noob. An experienced driver would not have bashed the frame as he did.
"Currently produced vehicles" what's with that, are we no longer allowed to drive older vehicles, how come you throw those out of the equation? I guarantee a '68 Bronco or Scout on 32s could drive right up that.
It's difficult to find approach and departure angle data for very old vehicles, so I didn't include those. After some digging, I found that a stock '68 Bronco had 40.6° or 45° on approach, depending upon tire options. 32" tires will not fit on a stock Bronco without a lift. They won't fit into the rear wheel well. Stock tires were 26.5" or 28" depending on options. Standard section widths were 6.5" or 7.5". Modern 32s measure 10.2 to 10.6 inches depending upon section ratio. My 33" tires have an 11.5 inch section and do not rub.
(http://www.broncohq.com/Broncosales/68/68sales6.JPG)
An early Bronco might make it over the obstacle. However, it doesn't have the traction aids the Sahara has. Thus, the task would be more difficult. I do agree that an early Bronco, lifted and fitted with 33" tires is an astounding climber. It was simply the best off road vehicle of its generation. Hell, it was better than almost anything made today. It was a shame that Ford switched to the big F-100 based version in 1978.
If Ford were to build this, I'd buy it.
(http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/thumb/f/f9/Ford_bronco_concept.jpg/800px-Ford_bronco_concept.jpg)
Now here's a nicely built '68 Bronco...
(http://www.bcbroncos.com/Roger%20Baxter%20gray%20top%20cut%20web.jpg)
BTW does the Sahara come stock with 32" tires. The ones I see around town look more like 235/55-16s or maybe 245/70s. I know I see a lot of Wranglers around with tires that are definitely 30" or smaller.
All JK Sahara versions are delivered with 255/70-18 tires that measure 32.1" in diameter. Rubicons are delivered with 32" 255/75-17 BFG KM2s. S optioned Sport models are delivered with 32" 255/75-17 Goodyear Wranglers. Base Sport models are delivered with 30.5" 245/75-16 Goodyear Wranglers. Dealers order S optioned Sports at a ratio of about 10:1 versus the base model. Indeed, base models are hard to find.
Anyway I'm gonna ignore this thread now, I don't want to argue, like I said I'm not ripping on Jeeps really. I honestly don't care what people drive, I care what they do, and how they act.
This isn't an argument, it's a discussion. I'm merely stating that there is no stock vehicle that you can buy new today that could tackle that obstacle that the Sahara climbed (other than another short wheel base JK model). Not even stock JK Wrangler Unlimited could manage it, due to its much longer wheel base.
My regards,
Widewing
(Edited to add photo)
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That's akin to saying, "let's jump off the roof and see if it hurts." A Silverado is a top notch pickup. It is, however, utterly outclassed by a JK Rubicon off road. Hell, if you saw the video at the beginning of this thread, you would see a stock Wrangler Sahara climb a 5' rock face. Here's the video again..
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=W1nflfygI3M (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=W1nflfygI3M)
This is a stock Sahara, no lockers. Street tires. A Rubicon with lockers and KM2s would have made it look easy. Your Silverado.... Zero chance.
I believe that the Jeep Nation off road club out of San Antonio has an event planned for a weekend this summer at the Canadian River Bridge, not far from you. Look them up and ask to join them on their ride. :aok
Also, Project JK has a Texas chapter. I can give you some contacts if you want to go out with them.
My regards,
Widewing
i watched your video! i am not impressed with the jeep, the spotter and driver did a good job of building a ramp with the rocks! i can do that to!
one thing i will give you, the jeep will damage itself less in the rocks, until it breaks, i don't really want to take a new pickup into the rocks, but the ridge that they climbed was not impressive, we have plenty of places like that at the Canadian river,( were i have been four wheeling for most of my life) and being good at climbing rocks does not make it the best of the best, there are many things that four wheeling includes besides getting thru a rock bed.
you want to impress me, do it without moving the rocks, without the spotter.
i hope you make it up this way with your jeep group, i would like to meet you, i can show you some really nice trails, from the top, if you ride along with me!(JK) :rofl you probably wont get to see them otherwise!
it is however all good! i like that people get out and play, we need more of it! your friends are welcome up this way,,, you might give me a count of jeeps coming tho, so i will know how many tow rigs to bring, :x
just in-case they want to see some really good wheeling!
http://west-texasoutlaws.com/default.aspx
these are my friends, tho i have not been a member for a few years, and for some reason most of the good pic.s and info seem to be missing!
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some jeeps at the Canadian river
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=w3NtWN-W0to
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some jeeps at the Canadian river
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=w3NtWN-W0to
8 minutes of video dedicated to two stuck CJs? Comparing a JK to a CJ is like comparing the Starship Enterprise to the Space Shuttle. I've owned both... So, I know.
As to the club link, it seems they spend much of their time drag racing in mud bogs. It's off road, but that's not "wheelin".
Wednesday evening, SpeedTV at 9PM Eastern. Extreme off roading, featuring the Project JK guys running the toughest trails in Moab.
My regards,
Widewing
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i watched your video! i am not impressed with the jeep, the spotter and driver did a good job of building a ramp with the rocks!
Neither the spotter nor the driver built a ramp. 6" of rock was piled to clear the frame rails. Show me this "ramp"....
(http://farm5.static.flickr.com/4034/4455902692_d4fba1cc93_o.jpg)
Seriously, do you honestly believe that a stock Silverado could even get a wheel on the rock? Name one factory stock vehicle you can buy today that will climb that rock wall, even using the 6" of rock used in the video.
My regards,
Widewing
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Neither the spotter nor the driver built a ramp. 6" of rock was piled to clear the frame rails. Show me this "ramp"....
(http://farm5.static.flickr.com/4034/4455902692_d4fba1cc93_o.jpg)
Seriously, do you honestly believe that a stock Silverado could even get a wheel on the rock? Name one factory stock vehicle you can buy today that will climb that rock wall, even using the 6" of rock used in the video.
My regards,
Widewing
uumm,,,,,,in that situation, it formed a ramp. it gave him clearance for the frame......just like a ramp is supposed to do.
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here's a couple cool videos of a buddy's grand cheerokee. he beats the livin crap outta this thing. it's an 08. :aok
CAUTION!! SOME LANGUAGE IN SOME OF THESE!! NOT WORK OR KID SAFE!
http://www.youtube.com/user/2000ViperGTS#p/u/4/PqJk0PNSxCc
oopsie!! rubicons never get stuck!! :D
http://www.youtube.com/user/2000ViperGTS#p/u/6/TK21otJtE1A
http://www.youtube.com/user/2000ViperGTS#p/u/7/tqTNy-EJYlE
this one's pretty dam funny1!
http://www.youtube.com/user/2000ViperGTS#p/u/9/zYN4uw6WDmw
there's a couple of other good ones there too.
CAUTION!! SOME LANGUAGE IN SOME OF THESE!! NOT WORK OR KID SAFE!
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Neither the spotter nor the driver built a ramp. 6" of rock was piled to clear the frame rails. Show me this "ramp"....
(http://farm5.static.flickr.com/4034/4455902692_d4fba1cc93_o.jpg)
Seriously, do you honestly believe that a stock Silverado could even get a wheel on the rock? Name one factory stock vehicle you can buy today that will climb that rock wall, even using the 6" of rock used in the video.
My regards,
Widewing
my daughter has a sport,
(http://i249.photobucket.com/albums/gg229/WWhiskey/nikkisnewjeep.jpg)
she just bought it, we parked it next to my Chevy just to check the clearance, while the approach angle is better in the jeep the lower clearance pretty much canceled it out
the tire on the one in the picture is about 30 inches tall, looks more like a 3 foot ledge (not 5) with a slope so it isn't strait up, we have many places just like that.
they only put one side on the rock, the other tires were in the dirt on the far side, they could not have climbed it head on, it must be taken at an angle to get on it at all
if they had taken it on strait forward out of the dirt there bumper would have never cleared it anymore than mine and there frame would have never cleared without an even larger pile of rocks
approach angle means nothing if there is not enough clearance to use it
and yes, i think my Chevy could climb it, easier than that jeep did.
when your friends come i will come out and we can do some filming if you want, i am off on Sunday we can pick some trails and run a jeep and my chevy up them, get some film and post it if you like. till then we will have to just agree to disagree.
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here's a couple cool videos of a buddy's grand cheerokee. he beats the livin crap outta this thing. it's an 08. :aok
CAUTION!! SOME LANGUAGE IN SOME OF THESE!! NOT WORK OR KID SAFE!
http://www.youtube.com/user/2000ViperGTS#p/u/4/PqJk0PNSxCc
oopsie!! rubicons never get stuck!! :D
http://www.youtube.com/user/2000ViperGTS#p/u/6/TK21otJtE1A
http://www.youtube.com/user/2000ViperGTS#p/u/7/tqTNy-EJYlE
this one's pretty dam funny1!
http://www.youtube.com/user/2000ViperGTS#p/u/9/zYN4uw6WDmw
there's a couple of other good ones there too.
CAUTION!! SOME LANGUAGE IN SOME OF THESE!! NOT WORK OR KID SAFE!
Nice... I like the mud bath at the end.
The reason you can't find any of new Silverados stuck like that?
No one wheels them? :D
I would love to see one try that ledge dead stock, it wouldn't have a front bumper after it got pulled off though.
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my daughter has a sport,
(http://i249.photobucket.com/albums/gg229/WWhiskey/nikkisnewjeep.jpg)
she just bought it,
Some scientists say that brains often skips a generation.... ;)
we parked it next to my Chevy just to check the clearance, while the approach angle is better in the jeep the lower clearance pretty much canceled it out.
Your daughter's Jeep has 10.3" minimum ground clearance. Your Silverado has 9.1" minimum. Straight from both manufacturer's websites.
the tire on the one in the picture is about 30 inches tall, looks more like a 3 foot ledge (not 5) with a slope so it isn't strait up, we have many places just like that.
That's a 32", 255/70-18 Bridgestone Dueler. OEM on the Sahara.
they only put one side on the rock, the other tires were in the dirt on the far side, they could not have climbed it head on, it must be taken at an angle to get on it at all
if they had taken it on strait forward out of the dirt there bumper would have never cleared it anymore than mine and there frame would have never cleared without an even larger pile of rocks
Everyone with a brain drives that same line at the Gulches' Bathtub, regardless of what they are driving. This is considered a difficult obstacle. Here's a 4" lifted Cherokee with 35" tires having far more trouble (especially after getting up the rock) than the stock Sahara.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tXTZSc_s2TI&feature=related (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tXTZSc_s2TI&feature=related)
Here's a guy with specialty rig that has more trouble at the top than did the Sahara.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QA-NAVsmmL8&NR=1 (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QA-NAVsmmL8&NR=1)
Then we have a TJ with a huge lift and it doesn't fare very well, in part due to be a bit muddy.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2DacytjaA0E&feature=related (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2DacytjaA0E&feature=related)
approach angle means nothing if there is not enough clearance to use it
and yes, i think my Chevy could climb it, easier than that jeep did.
I think you are being delusional. You could not get a stock Silverado over that rock without a crane. Why? Because you'll never even get a wheel up on it. Unless you first remove your bumper and valance. Here's a ground-level view of the TnT trail bathtub...
(http://i30.photobucket.com/albums/c316/Dragnz24/TNT/HPIM0801.jpg)
My regards,
Widewing
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Nice... I like the mud bath at the end.
The reason you can't find any of new Silverados stuck like that?
No one wheels them? :D
I would love to see one try that ledge dead stock, it wouldn't have a front bumper after it got pulled off though.
yea......the dude with the grand cherokee is a buddy. he's worked his bellybutton off for years to get to where he is now......and he can actually afford to beat on that jeep like that.
it looks to be massive fun, and i'm absolutely :aok certain that he'd never take either of his vipers back htere.........
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yea......the dude with the grand cherokee is a buddy. he's worked his bellybutton off for years to get to where he is now......and he can actually afford to beat on that jeep like that.
it looks to be massive fun, and i'm absolutely :aok certain that he'd never take either of his vipers back htere.........
Wheeled with a guy who had a 96 or 97 grand, with the little V8, and with a spacer lift and 33s the thing was really capable. Of course it breaks down a lot but those old GCs are older then toejam now...
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The reason you can't find any of new Silverados stuck like that?
No one wheels them? :D
that's funny, I have been wheeling them since 1991, along with my other trucks that i have built!
the extended cabs are not good in the rocks but that's about the only place i have ever had any trouble with them
the short bed regular cabs don't seem to have any trouble, i lift them 6 inches and run 35's on them, no problem at all!
I broke one of the extended cabs front ends a few times but have never broken any of the regular cabs, i used them on the farm and at the river.
the newest one i have does have a very low front bumper, i don't like that at all! the 90's had the best bumpers on the front.
they are very capable rigs but they can be broken if you don't know what your doing, just like a jeep!
I have had my trucks in some pretty tight places and none of them have had to come out on the hook yet.
the first event i ever entered was a southwest four wheel drive meet, they laughed and said sure,, you can run, i took the big trophy home that day, they don't laugh as much any more!
that was in a 1990 half ton short bed, stock except for the 33's, it was the only stock rig there!
Some scientists say that brains often skips a generation.... Wink
that's what i said too,,, but she thinks she might need it to get from her house to the hospital were she works,4 nights a week, it is a pretty tough 4 miles of pavement and its her money! it does look awesome setting in her garage tho!!! she about panicked when i aimed it at a big snowbank out behind the store, but then again she doesn't want to get it dirty!!
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That's akin to saying, "let's jump off the roof and see if it hurts." A Silverado is a top notch pickup. It is, however, utterly outclassed by a JK Rubicon off road. Hell, if you saw the video at the beginning of this thread, you would see a stock Wrangler Sahara climb a 5' rock face. Here's the video again..
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=W1nflfygI3M (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=W1nflfygI3M)
This is a stock Sahara, no lockers. Street tires. A Rubicon with lockers and KM2s would have made it look easy. Your Silverado.... Zero chance.
I believe that the Jeep Nation off road club out of San Antonio has an event planned for a weekend this summer at the Canadian River Bridge, not far from you. Look them up and ask to join them on their ride. :aok
Also, Project JK has a Texas chapter. I can give you some contacts if you want to go out with them.
My regards,
Widewing
Awe come on man, they had to use a cheater pile.
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http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=i2CAkJmbKKg
all stock Jeep
Todd
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http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=i2CAkJmbKKg
all stock Jeep
Todd
lol :aok
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Well, my five new 33" Dunlap Mud Terrain tires arrived yesterday. I have to schedule mounting at the local Goodyear store. As soon as the temperature gets a bit warmer, off comes the Freedom top and on goes the TrekTop. This past winter I designed and built a kayak cradle that mounts/clamps onto the roll cage. We're looking forward to getting out on the river this spring. This will be a fun summer....
My regards,
Widewing
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Well, my five new 33" Dunlap Mud Terrain tires arrived yesterday. I have to schedule mounting at the local Goodyear store.
My regards,
Widewing
I just priced a set of the Goodyear Kevlar tires today, kind of pricey but they look like they will last.
Why wait for the warm weather? I couldn't wait to peel off the top anymore and as soon as I did we get snow!
(http://i260.photobucket.com/albums/ii34/JadgTankker/100_0389.jpg)
Todd
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Name one factory stock vehicle you can buy today that will climb that rock wall, even using the 6" of rock used in the video.
My regards,
Widewing
I can name 4 off the top of my head. Troller T4, Unimog, Land Rover D90 and AMG Hummer. I sure I could come up with more if I though about it awhile. :P
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yeah...
Stock Approach Breakover Depart Clearance
Wrangler 44.3° 25.3° 40.4° 10.5"
D90 47° 35° 46° 13"
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I can name 4 off the top of my head. Troller T4, Unimog, Land Rover D90 and AMG Hummer. I sure I could come up with more if I though about it awhile. :P
None of these vehicles are available in the U.S., so to which dealer would you go to purchase one?
In a head to head test of a Wrangler Sahara Unlimited and a Defender 110 done by a Brit auto magazine, the Wrangler won easily. 2dr vs 2dr would certainly end in the same result. I noticed that RTHolmes quotes 13" of ground clearance for the D90. Rover measures to the frame rails. Jeep measures to the lowest point of the differential pumpkin. If I measure to my frame rails, I have 12.6" of clearance with my 32" winter tires and 13.1" with the 33" Mud Terrains. How can the D90 have 13" of clearance at the differentials on 235/75-16, 29.8" tires? It can't. (Edit) I forgot to mention that for the D90 to be imported, it would have to meet US bumper regulations, which would seriously degrade its approach and departure angles. As it is now, the D90 has no real rear bumper and the front is minimal. If a Jeep owner goes to after market bumpers, the JK can do better than 50 degrees at both ends.
(http://farm5.static.flickr.com/4016/4472926429_94703e8b15_o.jpg)
The Hummer H1 has been discontinued for several years. You can find a few H3s on dealer lots, but is largely inferior to a Wrangler Sport, and far behind a Rubicon. A stock H2 is badly outclassed. Then again, the H1 has some real limitations as well. Its massive weight makes it a poor choice for deep sand. In Iraq, Humvees routinely became stuck in deep sand. Usually due to the drivers not airing down, which is easy to do as the Humvee has a central tire pressure system that allows the driver to air down all four tires at the same time, while driving.
The Unimog is a commercial/military truck. Daimler Chrysler attempted to market it here, but there was almost no interest due to very high price. Some Unimogs have been imported, but strictly for off road use.
First, let me say that I like the Troller. It is a clever Wrangler knock off (combining many elements of the YJ and TJ series), built by a Brazilian subsidiary of Ford. It will never be imported because it fails to meet safety and emission requirements. Approach and departure angles are excellent, but minimum ground clearance (8.5") is nearly two inches less than the current JK Wrangler. It uses a Dana 44 rear axle with TracLok, as does the Wrangler Sport. Lockers do not appear to be an option, nor does it offer anything similar to the Jeep's patented Brake Lock Differentials. Jeep has purchased and analyzed several Trollers. One Jeep engineer commented that the Troller reminded them why it was decided to discontinue the TJ. Like the TJ, the Troller is simply older technology. One thing that Jeep owners have been howling for in the US for years is a diesel. The Troller's single rail diesel is something American's would love to have as a option. The problem to date is that such engines do not meet Federal emission standards. This will be rectified soon, because Jeep has a clean diesel in the pipeline and should be available before 2013.
Ford has been considering the upgrading the Troller for importation to the US. However, they are keenly aware that its look-a-likeness to Jeep is a major problem. Thus, some Ford executives have considered a fresh body design along the lines of the first generation Bronco. As of now, no decision has been made on bringing it here. I, for one, would love to see Ford bring it into the USA.
Last year, when Chrysler was on the brink, Ford approached them about purchasing the Jeep Division. Chrysler turned Ford down flat, noting that Jeep was their most profitable Division. Too bad... I would love to see the JK fitted with an Eco-Boost engine and Ford's far better build quality.
My regards,
Widewing
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do you realize how steep 50 degrees is?
i highly doubt that 90% of jeep owners will ever go even half of that.
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In a head to head test of a Wrangler Sahara Unlimited and a Defender 110 done by a Brit auto magazine, the Wrangler won easily. etc.
iirc the test said the wrangler almost matched the defenders offroad capability, however they did like the wranglers turning circle and extra elbow room (it is a bit cramped in the LR :uhoh)
I'm wondering about the clearance now (should have been 12.7" btw), the diff has a flat bottom but would still need to be only 3" from the axle line to give that much clearance on standard rubber. it does look like more than 10" though (I suspect thats the '90s D90), I'll have a look next time I see one.
didnt realise you couldnt buy em in the US. and yes the mog is very expensive, but then it it the best :D
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do you realize how steep 50 degrees is?
i highly doubt that 90% of jeep owners will ever go even half of that.
50 degrees of approach angle, not climbing angle. Although, the Wrangler can manage that as well. Approach angle is the angle of the terrain relative to level ground and the front of the vehicle. The closer the front wheels are to the front edge of the vehicle, the better the approach angle. For example, the Jeep Lower Forty concept vehicle has an approach angle of 90 degree because the 40" tires project out ahead of the grill.
The easiest way to improve approach angle is to remove the front bumper.
My regards,
Widewing
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iirc the test said the wrangler almost matched the defenders offroad capability, however they did like the wranglers turning circle and extra elbow room (it is a bit cramped in the LR :uhoh)
I'm wondering about the clearance now (should have been 12.7" btw), the diff has a flat bottom but would still need to be only 3" from the axle line to give that much clearance on standard rubber. it does look like more than 10" though (I suspect thats the '90s D90), I'll have a look next time I see one.
didnt realise you couldnt buy em in the US. and yes the mog is very expensive, but then it it the best :D
What the magazine said was, "In practice, however, most drivers will find little difference between them in ability, if not driver-friendliness. The Defender fares less well here thanks to its cramped driving position, heavy clutch, occasional transmission shunt and massive turning circle."
Please remember that they compared the D110 to a Sahara rather than a Rubicon. The Rubi is the ultimate Wrangler in terms of off road ability.
This past weekend, the Project JK gang and friends went to Moab for two days of extreme off road fun... Note that none of their Wranglers are stock. Some are radically upgraded, others only mildly so. All completed the trip.
Here's Moby Dick, the lead JK.
(http://photos-b.ak.fbcdn.net/hphotos-ak-snc3/hs439.snc3/25235_374931293970_56405988970_3538846_6935479_n.jpg)
Ready for the trail..
(http://photos-g.ak.fbcdn.net/hphotos-ak-snc1/hs209.snc1/7623_135206918970_56405988970_2414949_2317636_n.jpg)
Refueling in Barstow...
(http://photos-d.ak.fbcdn.net/hphotos-ak-ash1/hs459.ash1/25235_374978353970_56405988970_3539713_4632779_n.jpg)
Lined up for a photo op..
(http://photos-h.ak.fbcdn.net/hphotos-ak-ash1/hs459.ash1/25235_375551328970_56405988970_3553544_8240261_n.jpg)
The entire group heads out.
(http://photos-b.ak.fbcdn.net/hphotos-ak-snc3/hs436.snc3/25095_360728348970_56405988970_3462786_965087_n.jpg)
Merrimac Butte.
(http://photos-c.ak.fbcdn.net/hphotos-ak-snc3/hs439.snc3/25235_375749533970_56405988970_3559650_1850014_n.jpg)
Off camber... Hope they pee'd first.
(http://photos-d.ak.fbcdn.net/hphotos-ak-snc3/hs439.snc3/25235_375752878970_56405988970_3559718_6136783_n.jpg)
Even the ladies will tackle Wipeout Hill.
(http://photos-e.ak.fbcdn.net/hphotos-ak-snc3/hs419.snc3/25235_375754808970_56405988970_3559789_1629510_n.jpg)
In the canyons.
(http://hphotos-snc3.fbcdn.net/hs042.snc3/12941_183255663970_56405988970_2793134_6789655_n.jpg)
Out in the desert.
(http://hphotos-snc3.fbcdn.net/hs042.snc3/12941_178599573970_56405988970_2760175_6014103_n.jpg)
Big time articulation.
(http://photos-d.ak.fbcdn.net/hphotos-ak-snc3/hs042.snc3/12941_178654398970_56405988970_2760633_6499110_n.jpg)
Time for dinner.
(http://hphotos-snc3.fbcdn.net/hs042.snc3/12941_175882583970_56405988970_2740194_7628057_n.jpg)
Someday, I'm going to get out to Utah and join these guys for a weekend... But, I'll need to install that 2.5" lift first.
My regards,
Widewing
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wow great location :aok got a friend who went mountain biking there, said it was awseome (apart from the sunburn hehe)
edit: whats the upturned triangle/loop for on the front bumper? :headscratch:
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<SNIP>
Someday, I'm going to get out to Utah and join these guys for a weekend... But, I'll need to install that 2.5" lift first.
My regards,
Widewing
Promise you will let me know, or come through Philly and we'll convoy it out. :D
My wife and I were in Kanab last year (overnight) We left from Vegas in a rental, and went to to the North rim of the "big ditch" . She loves Utah and she intentionally did not rent a Jeep (like we did last time we were in Nevada) because she (and I quote) "Knew the topography of where we were headed and wanted the rental returned in one piece without anything broken" :rofl
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50 degrees of approach angle, not climbing angle. Although, the Wrangler can manage that as well. Approach angle is the angle of the terrain relative to level ground and the front of the vehicle. The closer the front wheels are to the front edge of the vehicle, the better the approach angle. For example, the Jeep Lower Forty concept vehicle has an approach angle of 90 degree because the 40" tires project out ahead of the grill.
The easiest way to improve approach angle is to remove the front bumper.
My regards,
Widewing
aahh.......i misunderstood. :aok
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wow great location :aok got a friend who went mountain biking there, said it was awseome (apart from the sunburn hehe)
edit: whats the upturned triangle/loop for on the front bumper? :headscratch:
That loop is called a Stinger. It prevents doing an "endo" (end over end roll), by causing the vehicle to pitch onto one side or the other. They also provide a place to attach a line when winching. The line is used to prevent the front from sliding or resist a roll over.
Below is a photo where an endo was stopped by the stinger. Not that he ended up in an enviable position though... :O
(http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v456/gabemerrill/Tellico_5_2007/Friday/IMG_6711.jpg)
My regards,
Widewing
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wow great location :aok got a friend who went mountain biking there, said it was awseome (apart from the sunburn hehe)
edit: whats the upturned triangle/loop for on the front bumper? :headscratch:
Stinger bumper
(in theory) to protect your radiator, grill and hood for being grenaded in a rollover. They also serve to prevent endos when descending steep slopes. (in theory)
EDIT: Ahh, WW beat me to it :D
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Promise you will let me know, or come through Philly and we'll convoy it out. :D
My wife and I were in Kanab last year (overnight) We left from Vegas in a rental, and went to to the North rim of the "big ditch" . She loves Utah and she intentionally did not rent a Jeep (like we did last time we were in Nevada) because she (and I quote) "Knew the topography of where we were headed and wanted the rental returned in one piece without anything broken" :rofl
I'll let you know for sure... Probably not for a year or two at best. My schedule may allow a two or three weeks of time off by then. This year, we are headed to Hawaii for two weeks. Visiting my daughter and grand daughter in Helemano.
My regards,
Widewing
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More awesome shots from Moab...
(http://www.jk-forum.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=39557&d=1269872400)
(http://www.varanus.net/mt.jpg)
My regards,
Widewing
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Well Widewing, you didn't say anything about available in the US. This is an international forum after all. :P Besides, there are plenty of used Unimogs available in the USA. Also I have seen a few Defenders on the roads in the US, I see a guy around here with a late 90's D90 quite often. So I'm not so sure about the not available in the US stuff. And then you talk about the D110, when I mentioned the D90. Of course the longer 110 will not do as well.
As for Unimog, I've seen two guys around here wheeling 70's era 404 or 406 series Unimogs. I talked to one guy once he had a 76, can't remember which model exactly, said he picked it up for $6,000, pretty cheap compared to a new Jeep. Not only is it more capable off road then any stock Jeep, it also can seat 12 people, and he pushes snow with it, oh and it's a diesel (I'm a big diesel fan). And yes, you can buy new Unimogs in the US, I know a farmer in WY who bought 2 brand new U500s a couple of years ago for agriculture use, about a $120,000 each I think. Really not that expensive when your talking about ag equipment, one is a dump bed, and one's a sprayer tank, both have PTO's, 3-point hitches front and rear, full hydralic hook-ups and turbo diesel power plants. They came with a snowblade, crane, swather and some other implements I don't remember. All in all Unimog > anything else on 4 wheels.
I love Bronco's too, and am hoping Ford brings it back someday, but they better do it right, the concept they showed back in 2003 I think was good, smaller more like the 1st gen ones with a 4cyl turbo diesel. I had an uncle with a 71 ragtop Bronco, had a 302 V8, double t-case, detroit lockers front and rear, some lift, and 33" mickey thompsons. I loved that rig, he sold it a few years back and sadly I couldn't afford it. I would love to build up an old Bronco or Scout someday.
It seems that any serious Jeeper does not leave it stock anyway, I don't see a single stock vehicle in those photo's. So all this stock vs. stock talk seems kind of moot anyway.
That last photo looks like the Top of the World trail. Don't really need those super-duper Jeeps to do that, I did it in my Rodeo with only a 3" lift and 265/75-16s with an open front and LSD rear.
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getting ready to start my new trail truck project! not sure if it is gonna be a Chevy Colorado or a trailblazer haven't been without one for this long ever!!!
my daughter called me at 2 in the morning her jeep was stuck! lol she just had to go down to the river and give it a whirl, i don't blame her tho,, she is her fathers daughter!!! by the way, it was dark so i didn't take any pictures of the new jeep on the hook behind my Chevy!!!
i am just glad it is her money not mine!
i figure if i am gonna have to drag another jeep around the river, i need to do it in something unique, it is always more fun that way, the first problem i found tho is the trailblazer has an axle shaft right thru the oil pan,,,, what the heck are those morons at gm doing in there spare time,, just trying to figure out ways to lose money?
Jeep has the right idea, i cant find anything else that is basically trail ready, i will not however,, spend the kind of money a new one costs, there is no reason on earth to buy a new jeep or other truck to go do what you can do in a
$ 6000. rig all day long, looks like it will be a Colorado tho, maybe i can get it built before your friends come down WW, i love prerunning trails for the Jeepers!!!
by the way them is some nice looking Jeeps of your friends, i love Moab, i used to go there a lot back ten years ago or so! did not see any stock ones tho???
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Surely with all of that low-gearing and other off-road stuff, you guys don't drive these on the highways, do you? I mean seriously, it looks like they get 10 miles to the gallon!
-Penguin
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That last photo looks like the Top of the World trail. Don't really need those super-duper Jeeps to do that, I did it in my Rodeo with only a 3" lift and 265/75-16s with an open front and LSD rear.
Most of the photos are of the Sevenmile Rim trail. It's a 4 rated trail, unless you turn off to Wipeout Hill, which is rated as a 5. They are doing a different trail every day this week. Stock JKs can manage Wipeout Hill without much trouble (depends upon the driver to some extent) if you have a spotter to assist you with the line. Today they have selected a 7 rated trail.
Top of the World is a 4 rated trail, rated largely based upon Rose Garden Hill, which is moderately challenging. It's a good trail for 4x4 owners who like great views and don't have a highly modded 4x4. Canyonlands Jeep Rental in Moab will rent you a stock JK to drive the Top of the World trail. They recommend renting one of their upgraded (lift and big tires) JKs for more difficult trails in the park. These rent for $150 a day, with a 2 day minimum. You can go top tier with a modded Rubicon for $180 a day. They also offer FJ Cruisers for those who prefer to stick to the tourist trails.
My regards,
Widewing
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Surely with all of that low-gearing and other off-road stuff, you guys don't drive these on the highways, do you? I mean seriously, it looks like they get 10 miles to the gallon!
-Penguin
Sure, the Project JK Easter expedition (going on now) drove from southern California to Utah. On the road, the more modded JKs get about 10 to 12 mpg in town, up to 15 mpg on the highway. Of course, these are purpose built machines, not daily drivers. A stock JK can manage 16-17 mpg in town, and 25+ mpg on the highway. With my 32" winter tires, the best I got on a sustained highway trip was 26.7 mpg. With the 33", one inch wider tires, my best was 25.2 mpg (on a shorter trip).
The secret to good fuel mileage is 35 to 39 psi in the tires and set the cruise control at 65 mph. 70 mph will cost you 1 mpg. 75 mph will cost you almost 3 mpg. Aero drag will eat into fuel efficiency quickly. For best mileage, you also want the convertible top up. The EPA rates the Wrangler at 17/19. Everyone I know gets much better than 19 mpg on the highway. Then again, the EPA estimates are often incorrect. The fact is that no one buys a Wrangler and then frets about fuel mileage.
My regards,
Widewing
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Finally switched tops for the season. Been looking forward tout
for a while. Junky I get back from Virginia early may. If you're looking
for some legal wheeling while I'm gone go to www.teamextremeoffroad.com and
hook up with Eric. He will take you to some really good places. Bring a camera and a full
tank. I'll catch up with ya when I get back. Just haven't had time to catch ya.
Keep the shiny side up fellas.
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So I was at work yesterday talking to a bunch of jeepers and they started calling my Jeep Grand Cherokee a Mommy mobile, they say they are going to put a soccer mom sticker on it :cry :cry :cry
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Surely with all of that low-gearing and other off-road stuff, you guys don't drive these on the highways, do you? I mean seriously, it looks like they get 10 miles to the gallon!
-Penguin
you're missing the fun factor.
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So I was at work yesterday talking to a bunch of jeepers and they started calling my Jeep Grand Cherokee a Mommy mobile, they say they are going to put a soccer mom sticker on it :cry :cry :cry
show em the vids i linked earlier in this thread.
my buddy has sunk his 08 grand cherokee at least 3 times. takes it wherever the wranglers go.
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So I was at work yesterday talking to a bunch of jeepers and they started calling my Jeep Grand Cherokee a Mommy mobile, they say they are going to put a soccer mom sticker on it :cry :cry :cry
Told ya to lift that thing, put the spare on the roof and take it out in the woods for a mud bath and some custom pinstriping, but nooooooooooooo.
:rofl
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Told ya to lift that thing, put the spare on the roof and take it out in the woods for a mud bath and some custom pinstriping, but nooooooooooooo.
:rofl
there's a guy runnin around here with an older toyota landcruiser. it's lifted almost as high as my 70 chevy was, has a snorkel up the windshield pillar, spare tire on the roof, and a shovel and pick mounted on the hood.
yet, i've not seen that truck dirty, or even with the remotest clue that it's been off road.
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Surely with all of that low-gearing and other off-road stuff, you guys don't drive these on the highways, do you? I mean seriously, it looks like they get 10 miles to the gallon!
-Penguin
My ZJ drives on the freeway. It gets considerably more than 10mpg on the freeway.
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So I was at work yesterday talking to a bunch of jeepers and they started calling my Jeep Grand Cherokee a Mommy mobile, they say they are going to put a soccer mom sticker on it :cry :cry :cry
www.kevinsoffroad.com (http://www.kevinsoffroad.com) is your friend.
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Always been a big Jeep fan and owned two but not a fan of the new series. Toyota FJ might be coming to Aus but I can't see it selling well as Aussies don't like something that looks like a kids tonka toy, plus they'd prob burn it for being such an insult to the original 40 series.. No idea what they were thinking when they designed that. Much prefer the real thing which is the extremely popular 70 series landcruiser cab model with tray at the back.
Pesonally only current 4x4 I'm after compared to any number of dirt bikes is Bowler Nemeis or Wildcat.. Either are the ultimate 4x4. Failing that a 70 series would be great for touring Aus.
(http://news-images.caradisiac.com/IMG/jpg/2/6/5/3/5/Bowler-Nemesis-1_grande.jpg)
<S>...-Gixer
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Always been a big Jeep fan and owned two but not a fan of the new series. Toyota FJ might be coming to Aus but I can't see it selling well as Aussies don't like something that looks like a kids tonka toy, plus they'd prob burn it for being such an insult to the original 40 series.. No idea what they were thinking when they designed that. Much prefer the real thing which is the extremely popular 70 series landcruiser cab model with tray at the back.
Pesonally only current 4x4 I'm after compared to any number of dirt bikes is Bowler Nemeis or Wildcat.. Either are the ultimate 4x4. Failing that a 70 series would be great for touring Aus.
(http://news-images.caradisiac.com/IMG/jpg/2/6/5/3/5/Bowler-Nemesis-1_grande.jpg)
<S>...-Gixer
I've seen some impressive videos of Wildcat's blasting across the Aussie desert. Looks like a fun machine.
My regards,
Widewing
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Project JK's ongoing Moab week.. Today they ran the Metal Masher trail.
(http://photos-f.ak.fbcdn.net/hphotos-ak-snc3/hs439.snc3/25235_376080438970_56405988970_3566488_6354676_n.jpg)
(http://photos-g.ak.fbcdn.net/hphotos-ak-snc3/hs439.snc3/25235_376165783970_56405988970_3568347_175881_n.jpg)
My regards,
Widewing
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So I was at work yesterday talking to a bunch of jeepers and they started calling my Jeep Grand Cherokee a Mommy mobile, they say they are going to put a soccer mom sticker on it :cry :cry :cry
Save your money... Build it into something like this and you'll never have to listen to nonsense again... From the site Karaya mentioned.
(http://www.kevinsoffroad.com/images/bumpers/Hard%20KOR%20Stealth%20Bumper/FrontOnTerminator04.jpg)
My regards,
Widewing
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you're missing the fun factor.
Note my previous position on "Whistle Blowing on Global Warming". (Also, doesn't that thread need a bump?)
-Penguin
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Note my previous position on "Whistle Blowing on Global Warming". (Also, doesn't that thread need a bump?)
-Penguin
:huh
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Note my previous position on "Whistle Blowing on Global Warming". (Also, doesn't that thread need a bump?)
-Penguin
Note the fact that if I was worried about fuel mileage, I would not have purchased a square vehicle equipped with a parachute for a roof and all the aerodynamic qualities of a brick.
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Save your money... Build it into something like this and you'll never have to listen to nonsense again... From the site Karaya mentioned.
(http://www.kevinsoffroad.com/images/bumpers/Hard%20KOR%20Stealth%20Bumper/FrontOnTerminator04.jpg)
My regards,
Widewing
Theres this place up here by Ft Drum that will store your car for deployment and install ANYTHING you want on it while your gone. You pay a down payment before hand then pay with your saved up money when you get back.
Im thinking
33 Inch all terrians(like it to drive smooth on the high way)
4-5 inch suspension lift
brush guard
spot lights
maybe a rack for my spare tire :D
:salute
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Don't.
Go 3-3.5" max. On a 4-5" WJ lift, you're now into Adjustable Control Arms territory. With Grands, there is only one brand of those to get, JKS. For all 8 (upper, lower for both front and rear), you're looking at $1600 + install. The reason you'd want JKS, is they have Rubber bushings. The Polyurethane bushings on Rubicon Express, etc are hell on Unibody vehicles. You will jolt on every decent crack, pothole, etc, not to mention every bolt, pin is jarred that much more, increasing wear and tear. Also with a 4-5" you are in "death wobble" territory.
Also, with 33's, you'd want a minimum of an 8.8" rear, with Single Piece 31 splines up front for the Dana 30. Now you're talking even more money. 33" tires are also too heavy for "stock axles". Go with 31's or at most 32".
If you get a lift, order it from Kevin's and ship it to that shop. I own a Grand Cherokee (95 ZJ) on a 3.5" "Front to rear lift". I have 31" Trexus M/T's on mine
(http://i25.photobucket.com/albums/c62/Masherbrum/ZJ/ZJ001.jpg)
Goto http://www.nagca.com/forum/ (http://www.nagca.com/forum/) and http://www.mallcrawlin.com/forum/index.php (http://www.mallcrawlin.com/forum/index.php) and most will echo what I am posting here.
You and I haven't seen eye to eye at times Junky, but I'll help you personally pick out a lift, give you Grand Cherokee advice. If you do it, be safe about it.
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Just wondering whats the most popular form of recreational offroading in US.. Often the pictures seem to be of guys rock crawling with massive lifts.
Here in Aus it's can be a bit flat..
Strezleki Desert (big sky country)
(http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v449/davest/StrezlekiDesert.jpg)
Or Sandy
Simpson Desert (Big Red)
(http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v449/davest/BigRed.jpg)
And not to forget lonely..
(http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v449/davest/DSC_0908.jpg)
Of course love every bit of it.. :D
<S>...-Gixer
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Gixer
I'd love to gear my Husky 430OR for 150mph and let it fly on that terrain... That would be a blast!
You Jeep guys, oh man! Nothing is better than a REAL JEEP! They haven't made one since the CJ!
Just Joshin ya's! Hmmmmmm, but not really, lol!
:salute RC
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I drove to Piqua,Ohio today to get a gas tank for my Jeep and the guy's son has a 1999 Jeep with a six point roll cage, headlight and taillight guards, 34 inch yokahama tires, a four inch lift, he even had roll bars across his windshield and a 9,000 lb. Warn winch on the front of it right. So I say to him " I bet that Jeep will blaze a trail when your out wheeling in it".
His dad tells me that the first time he took it out wheeling he got stuck and hasn't wheeled since.LMAO And the only time he used the winch was when he got stuck. That reminded me of the Hei City scene in full metal jacket where cowboy tells the pimp on the scooter he has some ARVN rifles that have never been fired and only dropped once :lol
He had a mall jeep.
Was funny time today and thought I would share it with y'all.
Todd
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Don't.
Go 3-3.5" max. On a 4-5" WJ lift, you're now into Adjustable Control Arms territory. With Grands, there is only one brand of those to get, JKS. For all 8 (upper, lower for both front and rear), you're looking at $1600 + install. The reason you'd want JKS, is they have Rubber bushings. The Polyurethane bushings on Rubicon Express, etc are hell on Unibody vehicles. You will jolt on every decent crack, pothole, etc, not to mention every bolt, pin is jarred that much more, increasing wear and tear. Also with a 4-5" you are in "death wobble" territory.
Also, with 33's, you'd want a minimum of an 8.8" rear, with Single Piece 31 splines up front for the Dana 30. Now you're talking even more money. 33" tires are also too heavy for "stock axles". Go with 31's or at most 32".
If you get a lift, order it from Kevin's and ship it to that shop. I own a Grand Cherokee (95 ZJ) on a 3.5" "Front to rear lift". I have 31" Trexus M/T's on mine
(http://i25.photobucket.com/albums/c62/Masherbrum/ZJ/ZJ001.jpg)
Goto http://www.nagca.com/forum/ (http://www.nagca.com/forum/) and http://www.mallcrawlin.com/forum/index.php (http://www.mallcrawlin.com/forum/index.php) and most will echo what I am posting here.
You and I haven't seen eye to eye at times Junky, but I'll help you personally pick out a lift, give you Grand Cherokee advice. If you do it, be safe about it.
That actually looks really good. I wouldnt mind having a bit more beef on the body itself, I know my wrangler that had 33 inch tires did have a bad problem with the weeble wobbles on the high way.
BTW Im going mudding on Sunday with the Jeep club my friend is in. His jeep came back all sorts of muddy.....Ill get my first true test in here, she handle snow like a champ but mud might be different :D
Pics will be posted :rock
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Well, after a week out in the Arizona high desert, I made it home...
Checking on this thread, I thought that it might be fun to post the URL of my favorite Jeep JK commercial.
http://www.flickr.com/photos/46456833@N04/4504171658/ (http://www.flickr.com/photos/46456833@N04/4504171658/)
My regards,
Widewing
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:aok
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I'll stick with the GreenieMeanie, never fails! If ya wanna go farther than this will take ya, then it better have hooves!
Love to have a .50 for the rollbar, rat patrol style.. Hard to convince the wife that I should drop 5 G's for it tho, lol!
:salute RC
(http://i686.photobucket.com/albums/vv226/RipChord929/GreenyMeeniex600.jpg)
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Easter week safari at Moab with Project JK and friends....
(http://project-jk.com/gallery2/main.php?g2_view=core.DownloadItem&g2_itemId=186072)
(http://project-jk.com/gallery2/main.php?g2_view=core.DownloadItem&g2_itemId=185808)
(http://project-jk.com/gallery2/main.php?g2_view=core.DownloadItem&g2_itemId=186141)
(http://project-jk.com/gallery2/main.php?g2_view=core.DownloadItem&g2_itemId=186354)
(http://project-jk.com/gallery2/main.php?g2_view=core.DownloadItem&g2_itemId=186486)
(http://inlinethumb05.webshots.com/45124/2384486850091405605S600x600Q85.jpg)
(http://i941.photobucket.com/albums/ad255/sm_rubi_2/Moab%202010/Moab%20Day%202%20-%20Green%20Day%20Area%20BFE/P3290470.jpg)
(http://i941.photobucket.com/albums/ad255/sm_rubi_2/Moab%202010/Moab%20Day%203%20-%20Metal%20Masher/P3300805.jpg)
(http://i941.photobucket.com/albums/ad255/sm_rubi_2/Moab%202010/Moab%20Day%206%20-%20Behind%20the%20Rocks/P4021855.jpg)
(http://i941.photobucket.com/albums/ad255/sm_rubi_2/Moab%202010/On%20the%20Road%20-%20Vegas%20and%20Moab/P4032127.jpg)
My regards,
Widewing
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Ya know, all the rigs in here are pretty choice in their own right! Different mods are made for different purposes... :aok
Wide, I noticed that you guys chose to pack the golden treasure, "Water Of Life" in the back of the CJ, wise choice! :lol
With the owners selected mods, for whatever situation, Jeeps will do it all! :rock
RC
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Come on Widewing, Did yall really need 3 Kegs :D
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You know, Project JK headquarters is in southern California. During the recent Easter Safari at Moab, it snowed one day. Really didn't stick much, but the SoCal guys were freaking out according to posts on their forum (I was not there, I was down in Arizona at the end of that week).
What I have discovered is that most four wheelers from warmer states are absolutely clueless on how to configure their rigs for snow. For those of us who have to drive in deep snow just to get to work, it's remarkable to watch video of these guys looking foolish in snow.
I'll cite two examples.
A couple of weeks ago, SpeedTV ran an episode of Dangerous Drives. This one was titled, "Extreme Off Roading". This show always plays up any danger, making it sound like borderline suicide. This show focused on AEV Jeeps (two modded JK Unlimited types, a TJ based Brute running 38" rubber, and one Land Rover Disco. They were going to test their latest JK components by running some trails in Moab. However, they selected trails typically rated as a 3 or 4. In short, trails you could easily run in a stock Wrangler or Hummer H3 (Xterras and FJ Cruisers would have issues with some of the obstacles due to approach and departure angles). You can rent Jeeps at Moab, specifically for driving trails of that type.
Anyway, they had some snow in the higher elevations. In some cases, 12" to 18" deep. Now, where I live, this is not considered unusual. However, some of the guys doing the driving are from SoCal of Arizona. They set off on their journey and as they drove out of the valley, they came across their first real obstacle. A mild ledge, about 4 feet high, at just about a 60% grade. Adding to this was a light coating of snow. It took several tries to get the AEV Brute up the onto the ledge. The Disco had no chance and had to winched up. One of the Jeeps needed a pull as well. However, the second JK was driven by a guy from Montana. He drove up and over without the slightest drama. This was a clue as to what was coming.
Up on the rim road, they ran into fresh snow of the depth defined above. Once the snow was deeper than 12", they began having trouble. With the Brute breaking trail, they struggled. Eventually, the Brute was forced to bullrush the snow. Backing up, running ahead until it bogged. Back up again as repeat a few hundred times. Honestly, it was pathetic.
Second example. JKOwners.com has posted videos where you can see their TV guys out wheeling in snow. They are not having an easy time of it.
What both examples show is three very common errors.
1) Inappropriate tires. Virtually all are running Mud/Terrain tires designed for mud or slick rock. With huge lug treads, they throw a lot of snow around, but they never get a good bite. These tires generally lack sipping, which is critical for snow and ice traction.
2) They air down. In the case of the JKOwners, they aired down to less than 10 psi. In snow less than 3 feet deep, airing down is a mistake. A big mistake. You don't what flotation. You don't want to increase you tire's section width. Run normal street pressure, because you want to minimize resistance (when pushing through snow) and you want to maximize ground pressure, which maximizes mechanical friction, and as a result; maximizes bite.
3) They run in low range in first or second gear. This limits your momentum, and momentum is important for breaking trail. It also shuts off the traction control. Excessive tire spinning is not a good thing in snow. It generates heat. Heat melts the snow as it packs. This mean creating water, and nothing is slicker than wet snow or ice.
Last winter, we went wheeling in the pine barrens of eastern Long Island after a true blizzard. There was more than two feet of snow on the fire roads and trails. I was running 32/10.50-17 (255/75-17) severe winter service rated tires. Tire pressure was dialed in at 37 psi. My JK never bogged down nor got stuck. However, another driver in a 2006 LJ Rubicon, repeatedly got into trouble. Why? He aired down his 33/12.50-15 Mud/Terrains. Wide, aggressive tires don't push through snow easily, and without sipping, his ability to get a good bite in the snow was nonexistent. He could not break trail as he was constantly losing headway. I drove around him and led the small caravan of Jeeps over 7 miles in bumper high snow, until we literally ran out of virgin trails. Later, after a 17" snow, I took my wife down to the large beach parking lot and allowed her to drive around in the deep snow. Even a novice can manage not to get stuck if the vehicle is configured for the conditions. That means the proper tires (the wrong tires can sabotage the very best vehicle in snow) and proper technique. This applies to any vehicle, be it a modded-out 4x4 or a common front drive sedan.
A significant number of experienced, dedicated rock crawlers are completely baffled by even a moderate snow fall. Now that winter is over, I realize that I'm going to miss the snow....
My regards,
Widewing
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Do you got those Kind of Jeep`s in youre Country?
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wqaK9l9yyQE&feature=related
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Widewing,
I saw that episode of dangerous drives your referring to. I felt they were stressing safety more than anything. They didn't have to drive that brute up that ledge to use for a anchor but it was the safest thing to do and not break anything at the start of a week long trek.
Todd
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did jeeps ever compete in the Paris-Dakar? dont remember ever seeing any.
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Widewing,
I saw that episode of dangerous drives your referring to. I felt they were stressing safety more than anything. They didn't have to drive that brute up that ledge to use for a anchor but it was the safest thing to do and not break anything at the start of a week long trek.
Todd
Safety... There was no real danger. The entire show exaggerated danger to the point of comedy. I've driven my wife's Grand Vitara through snow as deep as they were driving through up on the rim road. Again, wrong tires and wrong technique.
My regards,
Widewing
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did jeeps ever compete in the Paris-Dakar? dont remember ever seeing any.
You do have a good point about that RT, and ya never see them in the Baha Races either.. Wrong kind of event I think!
Jeeps have never been about getting to the finish line first, they are more about getting 'there', (wherever it is) at all!
If a jeep was entered in the PD rally, it would make the trip, no doubt... First place, probably not, lol...
But every year there are thousands of ridgelines, and deep dark valleys, where a wheeled vehicle has never been..
Odd's are 99.9% that the first vehicle to ever get there, or ever will get there, is a Jeep..
If ya think about it, thats a whole lot of 1st's!
:salute RC
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the paris-dakar is a 6,000mile endurance race over very rough terrain, sounds like the perfect test of an offroader to me.
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the paris-dakar is a 6,000mile endurance race over very rough terrain, sounds like the perfect test of an offroader to me.
:aok
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the paris-dakar is a 6,000mile endurance race over very rough terrain, sounds like the perfect test of an offroader to me.
Too easy :aok
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the paris-dakar is a 6,000mile endurance race over very rough terrain, sounds like the perfect test of an offroader to me.
You have to understand that Paris-Dakar is a speed event. You won't see Wranglers or Defenders in events of this type. Where you will find Jeeps and Defenders is places the Paris-Dakar racers couldn't go with being parachuted in....
My regards,
Widewing
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We removed the Freedom top today and installed the Trektop (specialized soft top). Next weekend I'll swap the winter tires for my 33" Cooper Mud/Terrains. Then, we'll be ready for summer.
My regards,
Widewing
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My bud just got a silver 08 Sahara.......Its SWEET, the interior of the Wranglers has come a LONG way :aok
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Wrangler just made the 10 worst made vehicles on the road list, the other 9 were big three vehicles as well. :aok
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Wrangler just made the 10 worst made vehicles on the road list, the other 9 were big three vehicles as well. :aok
Forbes based their article on Consumer Reports, and these guys have never liked the Wrangler... They're dullards. Joy to them is a Camry on the way to bingo. I replied to the article on Forbes....
"Consumer Reports has never liked the Jeep Wrangler. They don't understand it. They cannot relate to it. CR likes dull sedans. Indeed, they complain endlessly about the flaws of the Wrangler. Yet, Jeep sells every one they build.
The Wrangler is one of very few vehicles that does not sacrifice off road performance for on the road attributes. Owner loyalty is among the best in the business. Few, if any other vehicles offer the resale value of a Wrangler. Few vehicles have a large dedicated enthusiast community as does the Wrangler.
I own a two year-old Wrangler. It's reliability has been excellent. I routinely get 25 mpg on the highway, substantially better that EPA estimates. When we found ourselves looking at 27" of snow, almost nothing could move. Except, that is, the Jeep. When we want to head out into difficult terrain, what would we drive? A RAV4? How about a Highlander? No chance.. These SUVs would require airlifting to get into the back country of Arizona or Utah. Toyota's FJ Cruiser is so compromised towards being road friendly, that it can't compete with the Wrangler. Likewise for the 4Runner and Nissan Xterra. All of these are better on paved roads. Which is the point. Wranglers are designed to use paved roads only to get them to where they excel... Difficult terrain.
Those who prefer the mind-numbing boredom of a Camry or Accord will never appreciate the value and enjoyment of a Wrangler. They'll never begin to understand that when the pavement ends, "there ain't nothin' like a Jeep."
My regards,
Widewing
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You have to understand that Paris-Dakar is a speed event. You won't see Wranglers or Defenders in events of this type. Where you will find Jeeps and Defenders is places the Paris-Dakar racers couldn't go with being parachuted in....
btw I checked and there have been 6 Jeep finishers on the Paris-Dakar (half were cherokees) so they have competed :) lots of S1 range rovers to start with, then defenders, then bowler wildcats in the last few years as people started competing purpose built racers.
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Forbes based their article on Consumer Reports, and these guys have never liked the Wrangler... They're dullards. Joy to them is a Camry on the way to bingo. I replied to the article on Forbes....
"Consumer Reports has never liked the Jeep Wrangler. They don't understand it. They cannot relate to it. CR likes dull sedans. Indeed, they complain endlessly about the flaws of the Wrangler. Yet, Jeep sells every one they build.
The Wrangler is one of very few vehicles that does not sacrifice off road performance for on the road attributes. Owner loyalty is among the best in the business. Few, if any other vehicles offer the resale value of a Wrangler. Few vehicles have a large dedicated enthusiast community as does the Wrangler.
I own a two year-old Wrangler. It's reliability has been excellent. I routinely get 25 mpg on the highway, substantially better that EPA estimates. When we found ourselves looking at 27" of snow, almost nothing could move. Except, that is, the Jeep. When we want to head out into difficult terrain, what would we drive? A RAV4? How about a Highlander? No chance.. These SUVs would require airlifting to get into the back country of Arizona or Utah. Toyota's FJ Cruiser is so compromised towards being road friendly, that it can't compete with the Wrangler. Likewise for the 4Runner and Nissan Xterra. All of these are better on paved roads. Which is the point. Wranglers are designed to use paved roads only to get them to where they excel... Difficult terrain.
Those who prefer the mind-numbing boredom of a Camry or Accord will never appreciate the value and enjoyment of a Wrangler. They'll never begin to understand that when the pavement ends, "there ain't nothin' like a Jeep."
My regards,
Widewing
Wonder if they will reply to that .... :D
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These guys and their YJ's I swear it is so boring Ha Ha Ha Ha I keeed :D
dont get me wrong, my Jeep looks like a str8 up POS bucket, i sanded all the rust off of it, and shot it with high dollar spray paint from wal-mart. Four dollars a can adds up after a while but there is an old saying that you can't polish a turd.....but you sure can spray paint one......
after a new suspension goes under it and a set of Cragars with super swamper narrow ss tires it will be trail ready once again.
most people would go and order a new tub and all new parts and swap them all out, shoot some paint on it and call it restored. Not me though, as i prefer to see just how long these jeeps will keep going you know? i say resurrect rather than restore.....
the turd:
(http://i260.photobucket.com/albums/ii34/JadgTankker/100_0392.jpg)
(http://i260.photobucket.com/albums/ii34/JadgTankker/100_0403.jpg)
(http://i260.photobucket.com/albums/ii34/JadgTankker/100_0477.jpg)
(http://i260.photobucket.com/albums/ii34/JadgTankker/100_0478.jpg)
(http://i260.photobucket.com/albums/ii34/JadgTankker/100_0485.jpg)
Todd
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These guys and their YJ's I swear it is so boring Ha Ha Ha Ha I keeed :D
dont get me wrong, my Jeep looks like a str8 up POS bucket, i sanded all the rust off of it, and shot it with high dollar spray paint from wal-mart. Four dollars a can adds up after a while but there is an old saying that you can't polish a turd.....but you sure can spray paint one......
after a new suspension goes under it and a set of Cragars with super swamper narrow ss tires it will be trail ready once again.
most people would go and order a new tub and all new parts and swap them all out, shoot some paint on it and call it restored. Not me though, as i prefer to see just how long these jeeps will keep going you know? i say resurrect rather than restore.....
the turd:
(http://i260.photobucket.com/albums/ii34/JadgTankker/100_0392.jpg)
(http://i260.photobucket.com/albums/ii34/JadgTankker/100_0403.jpg)
(http://i260.photobucket.com/albums/ii34/JadgTankker/100_0477.jpg)
(http://i260.photobucket.com/albums/ii34/JadgTankker/100_0478.jpg)
(http://i260.photobucket.com/albums/ii34/JadgTankker/100_0485.jpg)
Todd
:x
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now if i can get the dang rear hub off to change out my wheel cylinder i will be driving it down the road.
Todd
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now if i can get the dang rear hub off to change out my wheel cylinder i will be driving it down the road.
Todd
BFH.
Works like a charm :aok
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Some say that looks like a POS, others know its a work in progress that will taste bitter sweet when completed.
Looks great Todd :aok :rock :salute
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I never called it a POS, mine was in horrible shape when I found it.. At a wrecking yard, no title, no VIN, out of state, was to be crushed the next day.. But it was all there, in one piece.. Gave a thousand for it, and then had to go to Idaho for release of interest paperwork.. Then had to tear off the body, and trailer both 1/2's to the Wa State Patrol, so they could crawl all over it looking for factory stamps.. Finally got a new VIN#, sheesh :rolleyes: !
It was worth it tho, for an original 73 V8 Renegade.. Mine is all original Jeep body metal, running out of sources for spares tho.. (I prang the fenders on stumps alot)... Spent months blasting, welding, and grinding to repair it, rather than go with taiwanese replacement parts.. Actually, it's getting to the point where its almost a crime to wail on it, hate when that happens!
Todd, I think your rig is a sweet starter, a choice unit! Year? Is it a CJ6? Or is the length of the tub an illusion of the camera?
Drivetrain? Oh yes, the FIRST thing you should do, is get rid of those 2 piece rear axles! :bolt:
:salute RC
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Todd, I think your rig is a sweet starter, a choice unit! Year? Is it a CJ6? Or is the length of the tub an illusion of the camera?
Drivetrain? Oh yes, the FIRST thing you should do, is get rid of those 2 piece rear axles! :bolt:
:salute RC
I would try looking into www.kaiserwillys.com for your parts.
My Jeep is a 1965 DJ-5 overland with the original hurricane motor. I am mainly just getting the suspension and wheels replaced. I did have someone give me a set of axles not to long ago as replacements or back ups to the ones I have now.
(http://i260.photobucket.com/albums/ii34/JadgTankker/100_0486.jpg)
(http://i260.photobucket.com/albums/ii34/JadgTankker/100_0487.jpg)
And besides the BFH I picked this up from my local Mac dealer:
(http://i260.photobucket.com/albums/ii34/JadgTankker/100_0459.jpg)
Todd
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Keep plugging away at it Todd.. Perhaps it'll look as nice as this CJ-5..
(http://hphotos-snc3.fbcdn.net/hs444.snc3/25486_1413811230672_1394292441_31128698_4490633_n.jpg)
My regards,
Widewing
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This weekend Im going back to MD, 398 miles and only 1 tank of gas will be needed in my cherokee......Love it :salute
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Honestly Widewing,
I don't want a Jeep that looks like that one. Tuxedo Park? I plan on going wheeling a lot and if I scratched that pretty paint job I would be pissed. Whereas if I scratch my Jeep I just get out the spray paint can and give it a touch up :D
Junky,
There are several trucks @ Ft.Drum that I am looking into.
Todd
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Jeeps have there place, But cant take 4 adults 2 dogs, gear..to the deepest recesses of the woods to kill Elk.....:) This does the trick...383 Stroker, Possies set of chains and a highlift jack..Whoo Hoo im so turned on...
(http://i273.photobucket.com/albums/jj212/skerlock/DSCN0234.jpg)
(http://i273.photobucket.com/albums/jj212/skerlock/DSCN0231.jpg)
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and the wheels off of a S-10.....
Todd
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and the wheels off of a S-10.....
Todd
LOL They are 31_10.5x15 Good size for that rig... Why would you want bigger tires? I know... so it looks cool...I guess thats better than Function...Sorry u have nothing good to say....
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and the wheels off of a S-10.....
Todd
This has been a topic of discussion and there is a legitimate reason for not "getting larger tires". It's a common issue prone to failure that is overlooked by 99.99% of the owners of Suburbans, K-5's, Jimmy's, Sierra and any other vehicle on the platform.
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LOL They are 31_10.5x15 Good size for that rig... Why would you want bigger tires? I know... so it looks cool...I guess thats better than Function...Sorry u have nothing good to say....
Bigger tires offer several advantages as well as disadvantages. I'm running 33/11.5-17 Cooper S/Ts on my Jeep. Advantages: More ground clearance, better flotation on soft ground and sand. Great traction in deep mud. Disadvantages include increased torsional stress on the entire drive train and increased brake wear and reduction in effectiveness. There is also the weight penalty.
Those tires are perfectly adequate for what you seem to need. Larger rubber would only burn more gas...
My regards,
Widewing
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Bigger tires offer several advantages as well as disadvantages. I'm running 33/11.5-17 Cooper S/Ts on my Jeep. Advantages: More ground clearance, better flotation on soft ground and sand. Great traction in deep mud. Disadvantages include increased torsional stress on the entire drive train and increased brake wear and reduction in effectiveness. There is also the weight penalty.
Those tires are perfectly adequate for what you seem to need. Larger rubber would only burn more gas...
My regards,
Widewing
Larger tires on those vehicles I listed rapidly increase one major issue: Steering Box separation.
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Larger tires on those vehicles I listed rapidly increase one major issue: Steering Box separation.
Absolutely! The K's are all terrible for that! Have to weld supports and backing plate to fix it...
Ramcharger/Powerwagons did that too.
RC
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LOL They are 31_10.5x15 Good size for that rig... Why would you want bigger tires? I know... so it looks cool...I guess thats better than Function...Sorry u have nothing good to say....
I was just messin wit ya :D
I wouldn't anything bigger than 33" tires but sumthin with some sidewall grip and aggressive tread for that stroker motor is all.....
Had to break out ol reliable today to get my drum off for a wheel cylinder change
(http://i260.photobucket.com/albums/ii34/JadgTankker/100_0499.jpg)
Todd
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This weekend Im going back to MD, 398 miles and only 1 tank of gas will be needed in my cherokee......Love it :salute
Through Philly? :D
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Trektop is on the Jeep. My Mud/Terrain tires have replaced the winter rubber....
Now, we're ready for the warming weather.
(http://farm5.static.flickr.com/4060/4526872648_52e939096e_o.jpg)
My regards,
Widewing
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Trektop is on the Jeep. My Mud/Terrain tires have replaced the winter rubber....
Now, we're ready for the warming weather.
(http://farm5.static.flickr.com/4060/4526872648_52e939096e_o.jpg)
My regards,
Widewing
nice looking jeep!
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nice looking jeep!
Thanks! I put the Trektop on this past Sunday. I figured a good soaking wash would clean the filthy thing and check for leaks on the top. No leaks, and it's clean. But, fear not, I'll have it muddy again soon enough. :aok
My regards,
Widewing
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Hey Wide, My wife said, "Oh isn't that cute!" LOL! Just joshin ya, But not really, LOL!
Seriously tho, If ya ever get up my way, I'll take ya out wheelin, :t ... Hope ya have full coverage insurance!
Just 10 minutes off the road around here, and it would NEVER be the same!
Here is a pic my youngest a few yrs ago, he had just bought this wrangler, first time out, lol! After 6 weeks, the insurance company totaled it! We play follow the leader, guys hate it when its my turn to break trail.. 90% just quit, and go home :bolt:
(http://i686.photobucket.com/albums/vv226/RipChord929/Vehicles1005.jpg)
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Looks nice!
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Well after replacing ALL the brakes all the way around, a new exhaust system, another fuel cell, countless hours of sanding and grinding, my Jeep ran down the road under it's own power again for the first time in over twenty years.....no I am not kidding.
(http://i260.photobucket.com/albums/ii34/JadgTankker/100_0015.jpg)
(http://i260.photobucket.com/albums/ii34/JadgTankker/100_0507.jpg)
(http://i260.photobucket.com/albums/ii34/JadgTankker/100_0508.jpg)
(http://i260.photobucket.com/albums/ii34/JadgTankker/100_0509.jpg)
Todd
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Through Philly? :D
Nah go through Scranton, I may have to make a trip to Philly to see the animal play the drums from the cage :D
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Well after replacing ALL the brakes all the way around, a new exhaust system, another fuel cell, countless hours of sanding and grinding, my Jeep ran down the road under it's own power again for the first time in over twenty years.....no I am not kidding.
Todd
Excellent! Looks like a great project. Keep us updated.
My regards,
Widewing
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Might I suggest this product for easily maintaining your floorboards: http://www.nonslipcoating.com/automotive.htm (http://www.nonslipcoating.com/automotive.htm)
It holds up the best, is available in damn near any color imaginable and "breaks down" the slowest (good) from UV.
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I plan on replacing the floor and having it rhino lined.
Todd
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One of my concerns with installing 33" tires was clearance. Stock Wrangler Moab wheels have 6.25" of backspacing. I found that the front tires would rub on the sway bar at full steering lock. I removed the steering stops and shimmed them enough to restore clearance. However, that increases the turning circle by about 5 feet. So, I ordered sets of wheel spacers for each axle. High end, billet based spacers. Expensive, but they are stronger than the wheels themselves and set the backspacing at 4". Once I get these installed (over next weekend, I'll reset the steering stops to where they were originally too). Also, a more robust steering damper will be installed as well. The new tires are heavier and the stock damper is marginal at best. Besides, I found some minor oil weeping on the damper, meaning that that shaft seal is worn. You see, when something wears out on a Jeep, it's a great excuse to upgrade. Even though the damper is covered by the warranty, it's still not up to the task of controlling the bigger, heavier tires as well as I would like.
Despite a rough winter and some very muddy off road trails, the two year old JK cleans up like it just rolled off of the showroom floor. However, within a week, it'll be a muddy mess again....
(http://farm5.static.flickr.com/4020/4532688114_6f648bbe91_o.jpg)
My regards,
Widewing
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One of my concerns with installing 33" tires was clearance. Stock Wrangler Moab wheels have 6.25" of backspacing. I found that the front tires would rub on the sway bar at full steering lock. I removed the steering stops and shimmed them enough to restore clearance. However, that increases the turning circle by about 5 feet. So, I ordered sets of wheel spacers for each axle. High end, billet based spacers. Expensive, but they are stronger than the wheels themselves and set the backspacing at 4". Once I get these installed (over next weekend, I'll reset the steering stops to where they were originally too). Also, a more robust steering damper will be installed as well. The new tires are heavier and the stock damper is marginal at best. Besides, I found some minor oil weeping on the damper, meaning that that shaft seal is worn. You see, when something wears out on a Jeep, it's a great excuse to upgrade. Even though the damper is covered by the warranty, it's still not up to the task of controlling the bigger, heavier tires as well as I would like.
Despite a rough winter and some very muddy off road trails, the two year old JK cleans up like it just rolled off of the showroom floor. However, within a week, it'll be a muddy mess again....
(http://farm5.static.flickr.com/4020/4532688114_6f648bbe91_o.jpg)
My regards,
Widewing
Please take the time WW to inspect your wheel spacers once every two months. My buddy lost a wheel @ 70mph, because a wheel spacer bolt was loose. 90% of folks only tighten the lug nuts.
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Please take the time WW to inspect your wheel spacers once every two months. My buddy lost a wheel @ 70mph, because a wheel spacer bolt was loose. 90% of folks only tighten the lug nuts.
These are what I ordered. Very stout. You torque the lug nuts as if you were installing the wheel, then install the wheel. 85 to 110 Lb/Ft, with a torque wrench. I'll retorque them after about 1,000 miles.
(http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/31%2BiKDwnAAL._SL500_AA300_.jpg)
My regards,
Widewing
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Im having a problem with my cherokee's blinker.......it comes on randomly when im driving :noid
My 5 year or 100000 mile warranty should cover this but honestly Im clueless to what is wrong.
:salute
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you might need to give it a dusting with some air, maybe there a build up in there or dust and dirt over the years, or lil WD40 then a Air Blast
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These are what I ordered. Very stout. You torque the lug nuts as if you were installing the wheel, then install the wheel. 85 to 110 Lb/Ft, with a torque wrench. I'll retorque them after about 1,000 miles.
(http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/31%2BiKDwnAAL._SL500_AA300_.jpg)
My regards,
Widewing
Just be safe. :salute
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Wheel spacers, Ooooh! :huh I've never used those on a 4x4 or a street driver.. Only on sandrail or quad.. Those things always worry me, never had a good experience with them.. HATE whenever a customers vehicle has had them installed, UGH! :eek: Those do look like nicely made units, hopefully the hardware is top quality as well... I suppose they would be a good stopgap, allowing you to get the bigger tires on.. But I'd be seriously looking for a set of wheels with the proper offset, to get rid of those ASAP... Besides, with tires already mounted on correct wheels, simplifies the changover with the seasons.. :cool:
:salute RC
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One of my concerns with installing 33" tires was clearance. Stock Wrangler Moab wheels have 6.25" of backspacing. I found that the front tires would rub on the sway bar at full steering lock. I removed the steering stops and shimmed them enough to restore clearance. However, that increases the turning circle by about 5 feet. So, I ordered sets of wheel spacers for each axle. High end, billet based spacers. Expensive, but they are stronger than the wheels themselves and set the backspacing at 4". Once I get these installed (over next weekend, I'll reset the steering stops to where they were originally too). Also, a more robust steering damper will be installed as well. The new tires are heavier and the stock damper is marginal at best. Besides, I found some minor oil weeping on the damper, meaning that that shaft seal is worn. You see, when something wears out on a Jeep, it's a great excuse to upgrade. Even though the damper is covered by the warranty, it's still not up to the task of controlling the bigger, heavier tires as well as I would like.
Despite a rough winter and some very muddy off road trails, the two year old JK cleans up like it just rolled off of the showroom floor. However, within a week, it'll be a muddy mess again....
(http://farm5.static.flickr.com/4020/4532688114_6f648bbe91_o.jpg)
My regards,
Widewing
haha, your license plate :)
-BigBOBCH
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Im having a problem with my cherokee's blinker.......it comes on randomly when im driving :noid
Did you check the turn signal flasher fuse? It is the size of a silver dollar under the left side of the dash board.
Todd
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Did you check the turn signal flasher fuse? It is the size of a silver dollar under the left side of the dash board.
Todd
Ill be checking it today :salute
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Ill be checking it today :salute
Might be the Relay.
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My Jeep only has three fuses in it total. Two on the fire wall in the voltage regulator and one located on the light switch :D
Woooooooooooooooooooooooo
Todd :bolt:
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My Jeep only has three fuses in it total. Two on the fire wall in the voltage regulator and one located on the light switch :D
Woooooooooooooooooooooooo
Todd :bolt:
:aok
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My Jeep
http://www.mediafire.com/i/?ni22z2t2yle (http://www.mediafire.com/i/?ni22z2t2yle)
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Wheel spacers, Ooooh! :huh I've never used those on a 4x4 or a street driver.. Only on sandrail or quad.. Those things always worry me, never had a good experience with them.. HATE whenever a customers vehicle has had them installed, UGH! :eek: Those do look like nicely made units, hopefully the hardware is top quality as well... I suppose they would be a good stopgap, allowing you to get the bigger tires on.. But I'd be seriously looking for a set of wheels with the proper offset, to get rid of those ASAP... Besides, with tires already mounted on correct wheels, simplifies the changover with the seasons.. :cool:
:salute RC
Yeah, some folks get nervous when they hear "wheel spacers". However, Spidertrax and Teraflex both make superior spacers, considerably stronger than the wheel itself. I know guys who run spacers with 35" tires and really pound their rigs. None have had any failures. However, you have to install them correctly, Loctite the studs, torque them carefully. These use Grade 8, U.S. made Stainless Steel hardware. The spacers are centric, aligning to the hub with great accuracy than the wheels will. When you run spacers, you should always re-torque the lug nuts every time you rotate the tires. In my case, that's every 3,000 to 4,000 miles. Also, don't let a mechanic tighten the wheels using an impact wrench. Be a pain in the neck and insist they use a torque wrench. Since I rotate them in my driveway, that's a problem I don't have to deal with.
My regards,
Widewing
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Wait a sec, Grade 8/Stainless steel? Two different animals there ya know... What always worries me, is the seating process of the alloy to the hub... They are never completely seated until they have gone thru several heating/cooling, retorque cycles.. Adapters just add another joint to seat, doubles the effort required to do it right, so they don't wiggle loose or snap studs..
Seen both happen! Thats why I hate the Darn things!
Like Mash said, be safe...
:salute RC
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My Jeep
http://www.mediafire.com/i/?ni22z2t2yle (http://www.mediafire.com/i/?ni22z2t2yle)
Nice rig BowHTR, :aok bet ya get plenty of floatation with those tires..
RC
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I went to the title department today to change my Jeep title into my name for the purpose of getting plates.
The cougar who helped me came back with two documents saying that my VIN# matched four other stolen part numbers in the systems.
So I go to the sheriff's department to get that cleared up. An hour later I had my title and plates in hand but man what a morning!!! :frown:
Todd
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Nice rig BowHTR, :aok bet ya get plenty of floatation with those tires..
RC
youd be surprised. they weigh about 65lbs each. Their 34x15.5 Super Swampers
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Wait a sec, Grade 8/Stainless steel? Two different animals there ya know... What always worries me, is the seating process of the alloy to the hub... They are never completely seated until they have gone thru several heating/cooling, retorque cycles.. Adapters just add another joint to seat, doubles the effort required to do it right, so they don't wiggle loose or snap studs..
Seen both happen! Thats why I hate the Darn things!
Like Mash said, be safe...
:salute RC
Google Grade 8 Stainless Steel.
Grade 8 Stainless Steel, specifically, ASTM A320 (AISI 321), grade B8T. 125,000 PSI rated. You won't find stronger studs... The factory studs are rated at only 100,000 PSI. Thus, not only is the 6061-T6 spacer (machined from x-ray'd billets) far stronger than the spun aluminum wheel, the studs are stronger as well.
These are not Pep Boys spacers, these are heavily used in off road racing and are a favorite of rock crawlers running 37 and 40 inch tires. Hell, MOPAR sells Spidertrax spacers thru their dealers. These are the best, of vastly greater strength than the wheels bolted to them. Moreover, I will install them using Loctite 271 on the studs. Believe me, these will not loosen up.
My regards,
Widewing
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Pep Boys, lol! I've been a ARP customer for 20yrs.. Rod bolts, main studs, rocker studs, and have their lug studs in my Renegade right now.. Moser and Strange make lugstuds of the same caliber, the best... Only about $12 per wheel, great investment! I have seen some primo parts packaged with counterfeit fasteners tho, thats why I said be carefull.. Sometimes the manufacturers don't even know that their fasteners are bogus.. Just that they are the best price, and keep the overhead down.. After all, they have the right markings.. You or I cant tell either! Keep a sharp eye! Those wheel spacers are nothing to dink around with, but your no youngster, I'm sure you know that.. Counterfeit bolts, LOL, sounds silly huh? Be carefull, because they ARE out there!
Yes I looked at the engineering materials charts again, just to make sure of my own memory.. "grade 8" is medium carbon alloy steel, quenched and tempered, 150,000lb max tensile. 120,000lb yield, 120,000 test(zero deformation).. "AISI 321 grade B8T" is Nickel Chrome Stainless instead of carbon steel, 100.000lb max tensile, 100,000lb yield, and the charts dont give a zero deformation test rating... Interesting stuff, both are tuff enuff, but the stainless doesn't seem to have the same give before it snaps..
Checked 4 diff charts for sources.. Just wanted to make sure the #s are consistant..
No insult is intended wide, just being the sage word of caution from experience :aok
:salute RC
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Took the top off today for 70 degree's of clear blue sky.
(http://i260.photobucket.com/albums/ii34/JadgTankker/100_0542.jpg)
(http://i260.photobucket.com/albums/ii34/JadgTankker/100_0543.jpg)
Todd
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Yeah, some folks get nervous when they hear "wheel spacers". However, Spidertrax and Teraflex both make superior spacers, considerably stronger than the wheel itself. I know guys who run spacers with 35" tires and really pound their rigs. None have had any failures. However, you have to install them correctly, Loctite the studs, torque them carefully. These use Grade 8, U.S. made Stainless Steel hardware. The spacers are centric, aligning to the hub with great accuracy than the wheels will. When you run spacers, you should always re-torque the lug nuts every time you rotate the tires. In my case, that's every 3,000 to 4,000 miles. Also, don't let a mechanic tighten the wheels using an impact wrench. Be a pain in the neck and insist they use a torque wrench. Since I rotate them in my driveway, that's a problem I don't have to deal with.
My regards,
Widewing
Just for the record, my buddy had Teraflex Wheel Spacers when his wheel came off.
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Just for the record, my buddy had Teraflex Wheel Spacers when his wheel came off.
Did he have a torque wrench too?
Todd :bolt:
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Did he have a torque wrench too?
Todd :bolt:
Yes. My point is that Loctite is NOT the solution. The proper wheel backspacing IS. If something is "rubbing", your vehicle needs more height or a narrower tire. But I realize I'm a "novice".
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These are what I ordered. Very stout. You torque the lug nuts as if you were installing the wheel, then install the wheel. 85 to 110 Lb/Ft, with a torque wrench. I'll retorque them after about 1,000 miles.
(http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/31%2BiKDwnAAL._SL500_AA300_.jpg)
My regards,
Widewing
Spidertrax makes a great spacer. Same one I have been running on my JK for well over a year with zero issues. It's the only way I can run the Kevlar MT/R (34) which works best for me
(http://sphotos.ak.fbcdn.net/hphotos-ak-snc1/hs272.snc1/9924_1242244337276_1264355985_30712428_5781310_n.jpg)
(http://sphotos.ak.fbcdn.net/hphotos-ak-ash1/hs470.ash1/25800_1416355329942_1264355985_31171480_3224889_n.jpg)
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Yes. My point is that Loctite is NOT the solution. The proper wheel backspacing IS. If something is "rubbing", your vehicle needs more height or a narrower tire. But I realize I'm a "novice".
Loctite is essential, and 271 is extremely strong. Indeed, for many aircraft applications, using threadlocker compounds is required by the specification.
I've spent a little time on the phone talking with an engineer at one of the spacer manufacturer's. Failure of the hardware was virtually nonexistent. Failure to install properly and maintain properly were the primary cause of trouble. Lesser factors included wheel failure, hub failure and the like. Those experiencing trouble constituted less than .02% of the total number sold.
My regards,
Widewing
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Couldn't you go with a different wheel offest to eliminate the need of a spacer?? just asking cause Ive never used spacers on my 53 willy's wagon and was running 32's on it in the 80's
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Zoom, the RIGHT way is to indeed use a wheel with the proper backspacing. My buddy rotated his tires after every oil change. He used to run 16" moab canyons on his TJ's. It only took that one time to show anyone why a $100 set of spacers should be avoided.
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Usually, in my experience, the chain of events works something like this.. Buy new awesome tires :x, mount tires on wheels :x, mount wheels on rig :x, rubbing problems :cry, Hmmmmm, need to move tires outward :mad:... Now it's decision time :headscratch:.......
Buy new wheels with correct backspacing, (offset is a common motorcycle spoke lacing and tuning term) which doubles your cost, and add the price of the tire changeover to the new wheels? :cry Or, drop a single C/note for wheel spacers? :banana:
With the $$$ in question, I can see how it can be so attractive to go with wheel spacers! Especially when you are perfectly happy with the wheels you already have, except for the offset.. But mounting wheels on a vehicle like a stack of flapjacks is never the ideal arrangement, everybody knows that..
So ya pays yer money, and takes yer chances! Just like everything else in life.. :pray Best wishes to ya! :aok
:salute RC
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Zoom, the RIGHT way is to indeed use a wheel with the proper backspacing. My buddy rotated his tires after every oil change. He used to run 16" moab canyons on his TJ's. It only took that one time to show anyone why a $100 set of spacers should be avoided.
There is no right way per se, relative to offset wheels or spacers. Offset wheels bring their own issues. Flex at the outside edge due to being cantilevered far out from the wheel hub and torque wind-up are two negative factors. Using 1.5" spacers with 6.25" backspacing moves the center of the wheel diameter to the center of the bearings, but there is next to zero flex as the there is no added offset in the wheel.
The BEST solution is to invest in custom hub assemblies that move the entire hub centerline out 1.25". Except, these run about $650 per axle.
My regards,
Widewing
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Better safe than sorry, I suppose.
-Penguin
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Usually, in my experience, the chain of events works something like this.. Buy new awesome tires :x, mount tires on wheels :x, mount wheels on rig :x, rubbing problems :cry, Hmmmmm, need to move tires outward :mad:... Now it's decision time :headscratch:.......
Buy new wheels with correct backspacing, (offset is a common motorcycle spoke lacing and tuning term) which doubles your cost, and add the price of the tire changeover to the new wheels? :cry Or, drop a single C/note for wheel spacers? :banana:
With the $$$ in question, I can see how it can be so attractive to go with wheel spacers! Especially when you are perfectly happy with the wheels you already have, except for the offset.. But mounting wheels on a vehicle like a stack of flapjacks is never the ideal arrangement, everybody knows that..
So ya pays yer money, and takes yer chances! Just like everything else in life.. :pray Best wishes to ya! :aok
:salute RC
using wheel spacers is about as safe as using compression fittings on a brake line.
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I took one of the wheel spacers into our QA department this morning and took detailed dimensions of the spacer.
We then rolled my spare in and took dimensions off of the wheel. We noted the material and performed hardness testing to determine the specific aluminum alloy.
We identified the wheel material as alloy 356-T6. The spacers are made from 6061-T6 alloy. 356-T6 has tensile strength of 30,000 PSI. 6061-T6 has a tensile strength of 45,000 PSI. This means that the spacer is 50% stronger than the wheel for a given thickness. However, the spacer is near 50% thicker.
We than constructed a 3D model of each using NX 3D CAD software.
We ran a finite element analysis of both to determine where peak stresses are and where each component is most likely to fail. The result is what I expected. In short, spacers are not the weak link. The wheel itself is 5x more likely to fail under severe loading than the well designed spacer.
Gentlemen, regardless of opinions or myths, the Spidertrax wheel spacers are less dangerous than the wheels bolted to them. Don't waste your time arguing.
My JK prior to the installation of the Spidertrax spacers...
(http://farm3.static.flickr.com/2719/4546097329_1c6eafdc66_o.jpg)
My JK after the installation of the spacers.
(http://farm5.static.flickr.com/4032/4546731156_22a163bb4b_o.jpg)
My regards,
Widewing
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I took one of the wheel spacers into our QA department this morning and took detailed dimensions of the spacer.
We then rolled my spare in and took dimensions off of the wheel. We noted the material and performed hardness testing to determine the specific aluminum alloy.
We identified the wheel material as alloy 356-T6. The spacers are made from 6061-T6 alloy. 356-T6 has tensile strength of 30,000 PSI. 6061-T6 has a tensile strength of 45,000 PSI. This means that the spacer is 50% stronger than the wheel for a given thickness. However, the spacer is near 50% thicker.
We than constructed a 3D model of each using NX 3D CAD software.
We ran a finite element analysis of both to determine where peak stresses are and where each component is most likely to fail. The result is what I expected. In short, spacers are not the weak link. The wheel itself is 5x more likely to fail under severe loading than the well designed spacer.
Gentlemen, regardless of opinions or myths, the Spidertrax wheel spacers are less dangerous than the wheels bolted to them. Don't waste your time arguing.
My JK prior to the installation of the Spidertrax spacers...
(http://farm3.static.flickr.com/2719/4546097329_1c6eafdc66_o.jpg)
My JK after the installation of the spacers.
(http://farm5.static.flickr.com/4032/4546731156_22a163bb4b_o.jpg)
My regards,
Widewing
if the wheel doesn't fail without the spacers in place, but it does fail with them there.......then there has to be a cause of this failure. if the only thing changed is that a spacer is/was added, then it would stand to reason that adding these spacers creates this problem, thus making them dangerous.
my experience with them is in drag racing. a lot of guys buy the wrong offset wheel, and then stick too big of a tire in too small of a wheel well. this is why they place spacers in there.
these same spacers also cause something to fail, be it the wheel, the wheel stud, or the spacer itself.
one of the things i've seen with spacers, is somethign you noted. first of all, you could've probably visited the manufacturers website, to find they're made of the 6061 aluminum. most aftermarket manufacturers state what type of aluminum they use.
secondly, i believe that the two different types of aluminum expand and contract at different rates. this being the case, it can, and eventually will cause the lug nuts to loosen up. if they only loosen a bit, this can create the appearance that the wheel failed, when in fact(again) the problem was caused by the spacer inserted between the wheel and the hub.
possibly for low power applications, they withstand everything. i don't know about that. what i do know, is that i've seen more than my share of vehicles towed in with wheels that mysteriously removed themselves, and they all had spacers on them.
putting a wheel spacer on your car is as safe as using a compression fitting in a brake line.
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LOL CAP, yep, there is that voice of experience again! I've never used them on a 4x4 or street driver, or ANY competition ride..
Only on featherweight rigs where the loadings are very light, like sandrails or quads.. But, back in my shop days, I have had to deal with them on customers cars, instantly the price went UP, LOL! I've also turned the work away because of it as well, (already wallowed out).. Just ain't worth the risk, or liability... What more can I say about that?
I don't know what jeeps are using for a bolt pattern these days.. But my old jeep uses the good old Ford F150 bolt pattern.. Wheels are common as dirt.. Every size, shape, material, offset, are easily available, new or used... Lucky for me :D
:salute all RC
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LOL CAP, yep, there is that voice of experience again! I've never used them on a 4x4 or street driver, or ANY competition ride..
Only on featherweight rigs where the loadings are very light, like sandrails or quads.. But, back in my shop days, I have had to deal with them on customers cars, instantly the price went UP, LOL! I've also turned the work away because of it as well, (already wallowed out).. Just ain't worth the risk, or liability... What more can I say about that?
I don't know what jeeps are using for a bolt pattern these days.. But my old jeep uses the good old Ford F150 bolt pattern.. Wheels are common as dirt.. Every size, shape, material, offset, are easily available, new or used... Lucky for me :D
:salute all RC
Fact is Spidertrax get run in tons of jeeps and they don't fail unless the owner doesn't follow the instructions. But hey, your smarter and more experienced then all the people who run them and the engineers who designed them. They must have one hell of a legal department to not get sued every time one fails due to them not being safe and all. :aok
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Fact is Spidertrax get run in tons of jeeps and they don't fail unless the owner doesn't follow the instructions. But hey, your smarter and more experienced then all the people who run them and the engineers who designed them. They must have one hell of a legal department to not get sued every time one fails due to them not being safe and all. :aok
Thanks, I appreciate that! :aok
:salute RC
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Let's see, our engineering teams has designed significant portions of the Airbus A350 landing gear system. We engineered the latest landing gear system for the Boeing CH-47. Our hardware is on the F-35, F/A-18, F-16 and a number of other aircraft. This same engineering team has analyzed the Spirdertrax spacers and concluded that they are extremely strong, far stronger than they need to be. Over engineered. Utterly safe if installed properly. Like an offset wheel, they may accelerate bearing wear, but the offset is so little as to be insignificant.
In contrast, I've heard lots of opinions, but nothing concrete. No data. No failure data. No failure analysis. You state that you've seen broken drag racers that used wheel spacers. So? Who made them? What materials? Were they installed correctly? Were they hub centric or stud centric? You can't answer any of these questions with anything more than a shrug. All you know is that there were wheel spacers installed. That's like saying that an airplane crashed with a fat man aboard, so fat men must be dangerous when they get on an airplane.
As to spacers becoming "wallowed out", this is very unlikely to happen with hub centric spacers. They are located and supported on the hub, exactly like the wheels (you must run hub centric wheels on a JK). Lugs provide clamping force to retain the assembly on the hub and to transfer torque. The pattern is 5x5". With stud centric spacers, all dynamic forces are transmitted through the studs. These are far more likely to fail under combined high shear stresses. I would not consider stud centric spacers for my vehicle.
My regards,
Widewing
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Fact is Spidertrax get run in tons of jeeps and they don't fail unless the owner doesn't follow the instructions. But hey, your smarter and more experienced then all the people who run them and the engineers who designed them. They must have one hell of a legal department to not get sued every time one fails due to them not being safe and all. :aok
Gto, I wouldn't take any of this too seriously. Both RC and Cap are good men. They are both posting out of concern. I appreciate that. I completely disagree, but that does not take anything away from either gentleman. Both are first class. :salute
My regards,
Widewing
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Oh I know, I was trying to mess with Cap, and quoted the wrong guy. :D
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Gto, I wouldn't take any of this too seriously. Both RC and Cap are good men. They are both posting out of concern. I appreciate that. I completely disagree, but that does not take anything away from either gentleman. Both are first class. :salute
My regards,
Widewing
thanks dude.....i should've added in my last post that i wasn't attempting to be argumentative.......just what i've seen. :aok
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Gto, I wouldn't take any of this too seriously. Both RC and Cap are good men. They are both posting out of concern. I appreciate that. I completely disagree, but that does not take anything away from either gentleman. Both are first class. :salute
My regards,
Widewing
Thanks Widewing! Yeah, aint worth gettin a nose bent over this stuff.. Just Bench wheelin, the BB equivelent of hangin out in the shop and havin a beer, or two or three.. BS'in about 4WD stuff... On topic. If I had even the remotest indication that the "fat guy" would break on me, when I needed him most? Yeah I'd throw his donut off the plane, with the wheel spacers in his pockets! LOL!
IMO, the brutal math of it is this. The wheel mounting flange is supposed to have only ONE thing mounted on it, the wheel! By adding the spacer, you've added another mechanical joint to the equasion, thus doubling the potential for failure... They can do all the engineering backflips they want, to try and minimize the added risk, but that extra joint, and added failure potential, is STILL there, when it WAS NOT before.. To me, that is not moving in a positive direction, equipment wise...
And guys that run auto repair shops see many thousands of vehicles.. See lots of things that will never make it into publications or statistics.. But they learn from all the others automotive maladies and problems.. Avoiding those same problems themselves!
:salute all RC
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I am glad you guys had the spacer discussion as I was debating them.
Todd
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I am glad you guys had the spacer discussion as I was debating them.
Todd
Don't get them.
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Thanks Widewing! Yeah, aint worth gettin a nose bent over this stuff.. Just Bench wheelin, the BB equivelent of hangin out in the shop and havin a beer, or two or three.. BS'in about 4WD stuff... On topic. If I had even the remotest indication that the "fat guy" would break on me, when I needed him most? Yeah I'd throw his donut off the plane, with the wheel spacers in his pockets! LOL!
IMO, the brutal math of it is this. The wheel mounting flange is supposed to have only ONE thing mounted on it, the wheel! By adding the spacer, you've added another mechanical joint to the equasion, thus doubling the potential for failure... They can do all the engineering backflips they want, to try and minimize the added risk, but that extra joint, and added failure potential, is STILL there, when it WAS NOT before.. To me, that is not moving in a positive direction, equipment wise...
And guys that run auto repair shops see many thousands of vehicles.. See lots of things that will never make it into publications or statistics.. But they learn from all the others automotive maladies and problems.. Avoiding those same problems themselves!
:salute all RC
yea......we should actually document what we see........
another thing everyone forgets, is that the suspension is designed for the vehicle. when you change anything, even something as seemingly benign as the wheel mounting position, you are changing the suspension geometry.
when you move the mounting point of the wheel out even just an inch, you are going to increase the leverage of that wheels load on the suspension. this is a possibility of a failure.
you go from two different types of metal(which the engineers take into account with their torque specs on the wheel), to three different types of metal.
now, you have three different expansion rates, and three different contraction rates, all help in place by the very same lug nut/stud assembly. now, if, with the addition of these spacers, you were to add racing studs, and the "pass-through" racing style lug nuts, i supppose this could make up for that.
one of the most worst cases i've seen for changing suspension geometry, is on the ford f-150's. i've seen them with the stock wheels spaced out, and alignment set to specs......but they tear the tires up in less then a thousand miles.
i've seen them with bigger wheels(also throws off the suspension geometry) do the same thing. it also tears up the ball joints. the fords are the only ones i've seen this bad though.
if you really need to move the tire out a bit, then the two only viable options(in my mind) would be to 1) change both diffs out for wider ones. this can be crazy expensive, but if you're changing them anyway then go for it. obviously not gonna help on an independent suspension.
2) measure, caculate, and then do it twice more. then order the right wheels.
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Don't get them.
+1
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I am glad you guys had the spacer discussion as I was debating them.
Todd
Frankly Todd, spacers mean $200 that could be better spent rebuilding that Jeep. I'm not sure those ancient axles could handle the added stress of oversized tires and wheels. Restore it to stock, get it debugged by driving it and then maybe start thinking about upgrading. If you do, look at the components most likely to be weakened by age and excessive use. Upgrade those first. A great look is nice, but safety and reliability need to come before that.
On my old CJ-5, I rebuilt both diffs and replaced the axles and bearings. I invested in a complete lift kit, which replaced all of the old, worn suspension components. Everything was new. 40 year old axles, bearings and differentials may not be up to the task. Thus, I suggest being prudent.
My regards,
Widewing
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Thanks Widewing! Yeah, aint worth gettin a nose bent over this stuff.. Just Bench wheelin, the BB equivelent of hangin out in the shop and havin a beer, or two or three.. BS'in about 4WD stuff... On topic. If I had even the remotest indication that the "fat guy" would break on me, when I needed him most? Yeah I'd throw his donut off the plane, with the wheel spacers in his pockets! LOL!
IMO, the brutal math of it is this. The wheel mounting flange is supposed to have only ONE thing mounted on it, the wheel! By adding the spacer, you've added another mechanical joint to the equasion, thus doubling the potential for failure... They can do all the engineering backflips they want, to try and minimize the added risk, but that extra joint, and added failure potential, is STILL there, when it WAS NOT before.. To me, that is not moving in a positive direction, equipment wise...
And guys that run auto repair shops see many thousands of vehicles.. See lots of things that will never make it into publications or statistics.. But they learn from all the others automotive maladies and problems.. Avoiding those same problems themselves!
:salute all RC
You know RC, there is a very simple modification that would eliminate my tires rubbing on the sway bar. Simple and very safe...
(http://project-jk.com/gallery2/main.php?g2_view=core.DownloadItem&g2_itemId=52481&g2_serialNumber=2)
Simply shim the steering stop bolts about 1/8". The down side is that you increase the minimum turning circle by about 5 feet. In day to day driving, you would only notice the difference maneuvering in a tight space.
Extremely simple fix. However, I like the increased track and the ultra-tight maneuverability. This does, however, show that there are alternatives available to spending big $$.
My regards,
Widewing
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Frankly Todd, spacers mean $200 that could be better spent rebuilding that Jeep. I'm not sure those ancient axles could handle the added stress of oversized tires and wheels. Restore it to stock, get it debugged by driving it and then maybe start thinking about upgrading. If you do, look at the components most likely to be weakened by age and excessive use. Upgrade those first. A great look is nice, but safety and reliability need to come before that.
On my old CJ-5, I rebuilt both diffs and replaced the axles and bearings. I invested in a complete lift kit, which replaced all of the old, worn suspension components. Everything was new. 40 year old axles, bearings and differentials may not be up to the task. Thus, I suggest being prudent.
My regards,
Widewing
+1 well said. :aok
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There is no way in hell I would try and put balloon tires on my old Jeep. I meant for future reference on anything else I ever may own. Very helpful info.
Todd
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looking on spidertrex's own website, i see one thing that would make me nervous right off the bat.
the spacer bolts onto the stock studs on the steel axle flange. then you bolt the wheel assembly onto the aluminum spacer.
now for all intents and purposes, you have only that aluminum spacer really supporting your tire/wheel assembly.
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Widewing, yep, the tight turn radius is an absolute must for me, for ZigZag threading between the stumps and trees.. Also I don't want to have my tires any wider than the flares.. Around here, the wider you are, the less options you have out in the bush.. Have to keep it narrow, although I do like the looks of BowHTR's CJ.. Very cool, but useless around here.. Funny, my steering stops look exactly the same, spot weld and all, lol! I changed them out for new, now adjustable... Because of my requirements of width and full lock turns, Max tire size for mine is 33in, just short of hitting the frame at full lock... I have no sway bars, flex frame, floating Xmember, 9leaf front 11leaf rear spings, (very rare) Dana44s F/R, blah blah.. Factory V8 Renegade stuff!
So yeah I understand the desire for as much maneuverability as possible..
I'm going to put a new term in the mix.. "Hub extension" different than a sandwich type wheel spacer.. My 1 ton 6x6 trailer hauler uses hub extensions on the front axle, from the factory.. Seen them on other big trucks too.. If you think for a sec, I know you guys have seen them on trucks before as well.. Was talking about this stuff with a big mudbog enthusiast over a game of 8ball at the Tav today.. He used the term, hub extension, lol! And yeah, diff than a wheel spacer, lol!
:salute All RC
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I have been presented with a trade opportunity.
I currently have a 1998 Ford Contour as my DD. A person posted his 1978 CJ7 on the barter section of craigslist. I call the guy up he explains to me that he wanted 1200.00 obo. He then tells me the whole point is to get another car for his wife. He will trade me straight up for the Ford. I really like the gas mileage of the Contour(25 a gallon) compared to the Jeep(10 a gallon- 2barrel carb) but the Jeep looks way more fun.
I was planning on doing all the right things to my 1965 DJ but as Widewing said earlier, it looks pretty decrepit and would require more work than this CJ7 would.
My WIFE has already told me that I could make the trade(getting supervisor's permission is first thing I did).
Also with this Jeep has another soft top with doors, another grille, and another dash board. The Jeep has a 304 cu. in. V-8 under the hood, a 4 speed tranny and newer BF Goodrich all terrains.
Do you think I should trade??????
Pictures:
(http://i260.photobucket.com/albums/ii34/JadgTankker/100_0614.jpg)
(http://i260.photobucket.com/albums/ii34/JadgTankker/100_0613.jpg)
(http://i260.photobucket.com/albums/ii34/JadgTankker/100_0611.jpg)
(http://i260.photobucket.com/albums/ii34/JadgTankker/100_0612.jpg)
Todd
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You haven't done it yet? Why, lol?
Where is it? If its close enough, I'll go buy it TODAY!
Ya know, cars like your contour (or others like it) are a dime a dozen.. You can always get another! But Jeeps like that one don't come along very often.. The ones that are still around, are owned by guys that usually won't part with them.. And it seems like this one is being dropped in your lap... If you miss it, you'll regret it!
RC
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i don't personally like contours. they;re tiny, cramped, and if they have the 6 cylinder, no room to work under the hood. the fact is though, that they are decently reliable cars.
if you like the jeep though, then go for it.
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Todd, thats a good one.. Does it run and drive?
V8 CJ's are very sought after in my area.. Around here, I could buy it, and resell it, double my money, and never lay a hand on it.. The same kind of work you have been doing on your little jeep, will have a much greater return on that blue one.. It has most of the good equipment already! Same as mine did... Looks like a little TLC would go a long way on that jeep too...
Then your little old jeep could be, "Jeep Experimental #?"... :aok (blazer axles, monster tires, flip front end, 454, LOL :D )
pics of mine.. Jeep on :rock
(http://i686.photobucket.com/albums/vv226/RipChord929/Dash2.jpg)
(http://i686.photobucket.com/albums/vv226/RipChord929/engine2.jpg)
(http://i686.photobucket.com/albums/vv226/RipChord929/GMpassside1.jpg)
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Today was perfect. 76 degrees, sunny. I pulled down the Trektop and my wife and did some local trail riding as well as just touring the north shore of the island. In Avalon Nature Preserve, I snapped a photo of my Jeep... Great lighting and reflections.
(http://farm4.static.flickr.com/3339/4566734488_c2bd7836d6_o.jpg)
My regards,
Widewing
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Today was perfect. 76 degrees, sunny. I pulled down the Trektop and my wife and did some local trail riding as well as just touring the north shore of the island. In Avalon Nature Preserve, I snapped a photo of my Jeep... Great lighting and reflections.
(http://farm4.static.flickr.com/3339/4566734488_c2bd7836d6_o.jpg)
My regards,
Widewing
Nice looking Jeep WW, looks like a fun day.
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hey jeep guys.......
the shop across the street has a 91 wrangler. needs a transmission crossmember. he can't find one in the junkyards, and apparently, chrysler has "obsoleted" it.
any of you have one for sale reasonable? or know of some place he can get one?
thanks!!
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Try Olympic 4x4 Supply, they are online, great source for new and used.. They will ship...
:salute RC
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hey jeep guys.......
the shop across the street has a 91 wrangler. needs a transmission crossmember. he can't find one in the junkyards, and apparently, chrysler has "obsoleted" it.
any of you have one for sale reasonable? or know of some place he can get one?
thanks!!
www.jeepforum.com
Go there, sign up and be glad you did. Lots of parts and help on that site.
Todd
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hey jeep guys.......
the shop across the street has a 91 wrangler. needs a transmission crossmember. he can't find one in the junkyards, and apparently, chrysler has "obsoleted" it.
any of you have one for sale reasonable? or know of some place he can get one?
thanks!!
Is this what you need?
(http://www.zaib4x4.com/catalog/images/1860809.gif)
http://www.zaib4x4.com/catalog/product_info.php?products_id=3617 (http://www.zaib4x4.com/catalog/product_info.php?products_id=3617)
Also, they should visit this site: http://www.daveysjeeps.com/ (http://www.daveysjeeps.com/), or give them a call at 330-337-5037. Davey's is a major Jeep salvage house. They will have anything you could possibly need for a 91 Wrangler YJ.
My regards,
Widewing
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Is this what you need?
(http://www.zaib4x4.com/catalog/images/1860809.gif)
http://www.zaib4x4.com/catalog/product_info.php?products_id=3617 (http://www.zaib4x4.com/catalog/product_info.php?products_id=3617)
Also, they should visit this site: http://www.daveysjeeps.com/ (http://www.daveysjeeps.com/), or give them a call at 330-337-5037. Davey's is a major Jeep salvage house. They will have anything you could possibly need for a 91 Wrangler YJ.
My regards,
Widewing
he needs the entire crossmember.
the mounts themselves are still readily available.........
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he needs the entire crossmember.
the mounts themselves are still readily available.........
Then try Davey's, I'm confident that they have one, or can get one.
My regards,
Widewing
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Then try Davey's, I'm confident that they have one, or can get one.
My regards,
Widewing
kk...are they an online place, or are they local to you up there? any contact info?
also.....apologies for that last reply sounding short.........
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kk...are they an online place, or are they local to you up there? any contact info?
also.....apologies for that last reply sounding short.........
No, they are not local to me. I do know a few guys who have gotten parts from them.
Their phone number is 330-337-5037.
And no, I didn't think your reply was short sounding at all.
My regards,
Widewing
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As I'm sure you can understand, there is a constant debate raging as to which off road oriented vehicle is the best. The question should be; the best at what?
Nothing available from a new car dealer today comes close to a Wrangler for off road ability. However, that comes with a price. Wranglers are not very good on road, their suspensions being just good enough to get you to where you go off road. FJ Cruisers, Xterras, Hummers and the like are certainly better road vehicles. After all, even Wranglers spend the vast bulk of their lives on paved roads. So, if you buy a Wrangler, you should be aware of the lack of compromise towards road driving, or you will not be a happy driver. This is why the others mentioned sell reasonably well. However, their owners still feel intimidated by a well built Wrangler... They should, especially if they're the type that feel embarrassed by choosing the compromise vehicle, and there are quite a few of those. Slaves to practicality.
Just so everyone understands that there is a social equivalency in play, here's some examples....
Let's define social equivalents....
Here's the Jeep:
(http://i283.photobucket.com/albums/kk286/JUANEIKA/clint_eastwood.jpg)
Here's the Hummer:
(http://www.topnews.in/files/Michael-Douglas.jpg)
Here's the FJ Cruiser:
(http://cache.gawker.com/assets/images/defamer/2009/02/al_pacino_300.jpg)
Here's the Xterra:
(http://mvpyimao.files.wordpress.com/2009/10/johnny-depp.jpg)
Here's the Range Rover:
(http://therapysessions.blogspot.com/capt.nyet10903251507.people_richard_simmons_nyet109.jpg)
Any questions....
(http://farm5.static.flickr.com/4031/4625573083_4e175f0750_o.jpg)
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you forgot the defender:
(http://www.eliteukforces.info/images/gallery/uksf/sas-iraq-3.jpg)
:D
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I forgot to mention the latest upgrade to my Jeep... An Aussie Locker for the front Dana 30 axle. It took me an hour to get used to the bicycle-like ratcheting sound when turning near the steering stops. However, as a auto-locker, it's extremely impressive. Under conditions where I would have to depend upon the Brake Lock Differential algorithm to get traction to both front tires, now the locker locks up, both front Coopers grab and off I go. I like it better than the solenoid activated, manually selected locker Dana 44 rear axle. You don't have to be in low range with the Aussie Locker. Under $300, installs in about 2 hours.
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i got a question, from the pic it looks like youve got a much wider track at the front vs the rear - how does that effect the handling?
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i got a question, from the pic it looks like youve got a much wider track at the front vs the rear - how does that effect the handling?
Same track... 64.9" front and rear.
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ok :)